Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tonight’s Local By-Elections : Previewed by Harry Hayfield

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited August 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tonight’s Local By-Elections : Previewed by Harry Hayfield

Irvine West (SNP defence) on North Ayrshire
Result of council at last election (2012): Scottish National Party 12, Labour 11, Independents 6, Conservative 1 (No Overall Control, SNP short by 4)
Result of ward at last election (2012):

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited August 2016
    First.
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited August 2016

    First.

    What is the square root of 1?

    And second
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    First.

    Excluded for initial (pre-edit) want of certainty .... :smile:
  • Options
    Second like Johanna Konta, at this rate.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Thanks Harry.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Nate Silver's latest forecasts :

    Clinton 86.2 .. Trump 13.8 - Polls Only
    Clinton 76.1 .. Trump 23.9 - Polls Plus
    Clinton 88.7 .. Trump 11.2 - Nowcast

    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#now
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited August 2016
    ...
  • Options
    Team GB Men's spirit wouldn't do nowt in my spin class ;-)
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    I'm going out on a limb and saying we won't be seeing any LD gains tonight.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Tenth like Labour.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2016
    JackW said:

    Nate Silver's latest forecasts :

    Clinton 86.2 .. Trump 13.8 - Polls Only
    Clinton 76.1 .. Trump 23.9 - Polls Plus
    Clinton 88.7 .. Trump 11.2 - Nowcast

    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#now

    His forecasts are again clunky.

    The Trump collapse has not been uniform as his model assumes.

    We have enough proof from enough state polls to disprove his model.

    For instance N.Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Nevada, and Missouri are on the edge according to state polls, but in his model there are not.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    I'm going out on a limb and saying we won't be seeing any LD gains tonight.

    I'm predicting one Con hold and two Con gains tonight.

    #FullOfBullishness or is it #FullOfBullshit
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    philiph said:

    First.

    What is the square root of 1?

    ...
    The square root of 1? The square root of -1 is much more interesting.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Florida - Opinion Savvy/Fox13

    Clinton 45 .. Trump 44

    http://opinionsavvy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/OS-FL-General-8.11.16.pdf
  • Options
    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,882
    Any chance of a Labour hold in Renfrewshire?
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Speedy said:

    JackW said:

    Nate Silver's latest forecasts :

    Clinton 86.2 .. Trump 13.8 - Polls Only
    Clinton 76.1 .. Trump 23.9 - Polls Plus
    Clinton 88.7 .. Trump 11.2 - Nowcast

    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#now

    His forecasts are again clunky.

    The Trump collapse has not been uniform as his model assumes.

    We have enough proof from enough state polls to disprove his model.

    For instance N.Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Nevada, and Missouri are on the edge according to state polls, but in his model there are not.
    There are 3 models here and frankly your arguments were made in 08/12 by others and Nate was entirely vindicated.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    edited August 2016

    philiph said:

    First.

    What is the square root of 1?

    ...
    The square root of 1? The square root of -1 is much more interesting.
    Aye (-Aye)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
  • Options
    CLPs nomination tonight

    Corbyn

    Portsmouth, 75 to 13
    Clacton, 49 to 21
    Enfield North, 88 to 40
    Sevenoaks
    Bedford
    Elmet and Rothwell, 68 to 32
    Wellingborough
    Blackley and Broughton, 74 to 15
    Solihull
    Halesowen and Rowley Regis
    Mid Worcestershire
    Hyndburn
    South East Cambridgeshire
    Winchester, 86 to 35
    South Ribble

    Smith


    Twickenham, 76 to 70
    Glasgow Cathcart
    Ealing Central
    Ayl

  • Options
    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited August 2016
    Smith:

    Batley and Spen
    Galloway and West Dumfries
    Dumfriesshire
    Mitcham and Morden
    Inverness & Nairn: 22 to 7
    Greenock and Inverclyde
    Uddingston and Bellshill
    Rutherglen
    Clydesdale

    Corbyn:

    Barrow and Furness: 100 to 36
    Bolton West
    Derbyshire Dales
    Edinburgh Central, 43 to 24
    Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale
    Bradford East 49 to 5
    Bolton NE
    Sefton Central 107 to 44
    Torbay
    Glasgow Soutshide
    Aberdeen Donside: 13 to 4
    North Shropshire
    Midlothian North
    Tottenham
    Sherwood 52 to 12
    Gloucester 80 to 23
    Northampton North
    Northampton South
    Dundee East
    Dundee West
    Stalybridge and Hyde
    Clydebank and Milngavie

  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    While the IFS Single Market report is a very blunt tool (it doesn't account for tightly integrated pan-EU manufacturing sectors etc), the ultimate conclusion makes me smile.

    It's 2030. You have £10 in your pocket. The EU fairy appears and gives you 40p. "Thanks for staying, here's your bonus".
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited August 2016
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is normally the Midlands which determines elections, the South voting Tory and the North and London Labour but in EU ref it was probably the South on reflection which won it yes (though Wales was also close to the UK average). The North and Midlands were strongly Leave and London and Scotland were strongly Remain, it was the Southern Home Counties vote narrowly going for Leave which saw it home.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    edited August 2016
    http://littleatoms.com/society/impromptu-corbynia-islington-labour-debates-leadership-race

    "As the voting was explained, one woman asked, suspicion in her voice, how we knew the ballot boxes were empty, leading to the bizarre sight of party scrutineers carrying upside-down ballot boxes through the crowd so anyone who wanted to could check."

    posted without comment :D
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    SeanT said:

    Jesus sweet Jesus. Labour are fucked

    "Can war ever be justified?

    Smith says yes it can. He recalls as a child meeting miners’ leader Will Painter, who fought in the Spanish civil war against fascism. An audience member laughs, which Smith says is “disrespectful”."

    From 8:32, here:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/aug/11/labour-leadership-debate-jeremy-corbyn-owen-smith-gateshead-live

    Labour can't be allowed anywhere near Westminster until they understand that "defence of the realm" and "sound finances" aren't a fucking joke.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    It's easier to say England voted Leave. It was only London, which has relatively few Englishmen in it, that voted otherwise.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2016
    Kenya caught cheating at the Olympics...

    Kenya said sprint coach John Anzrah "presented himself as an athlete" and "even signed the documents" for the doping test.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    edited August 2016
    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    Is Faisal still running around like a panic stricken, headless chicken as he did in the days after LEAVE won? :smiley:
  • Options
    John_M said:

    SeanT said:

    Jesus sweet Jesus. Labour are fucked

    "Can war ever be justified?

    Smith says yes it can. He recalls as a child meeting miners’ leader Will Painter, who fought in the Spanish civil war against fascism. An audience member laughs, which Smith says is “disrespectful”."

    From 8:32, here:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/aug/11/labour-leadership-debate-jeremy-corbyn-owen-smith-gateshead-live

    Labour can't be allowed anywhere near Westminster until they understand that "defence of the realm" and "sound finances" aren't a fucking joke.
    They're past that point now, the childish and the delusional seem to have taken over. The grown ups are at risk of deselection. They are ruined.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    JackW said:

    Speedy said:

    JackW said:

    Nate Silver's latest forecasts :

    Clinton 86.2 .. Trump 13.8 - Polls Only
    Clinton 76.1 .. Trump 23.9 - Polls Plus
    Clinton 88.7 .. Trump 11.2 - Nowcast

    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#now

    His forecasts are again clunky.

    The Trump collapse has not been uniform as his model assumes.

    We have enough proof from enough state polls to disprove his model.

    For instance N.Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Nevada, and Missouri are on the edge according to state polls, but in his model there are not.
    There are 3 models here and frankly your arguments were made in 08/12 by others and Nate was entirely vindicated.
    Forecasting the results in 50 states, of which only 15 or less are swing states doesn't require magical powers (unlike 650 seats, of which 100 are marginal).

    Everyone can do it due to the small number of swing states, provided they look at the state polls, instead of the national polls.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    SeanT said:

    Jesus sweet Jesus. Labour are fucked

    "Can war ever be justified?

    Smith says yes it can. He recalls as a child meeting miners’ leader Will Painter, who fought in the Spanish civil war against fascism. An audience member laughs, which Smith says is “disrespectful”."

    From 8:32, here:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/aug/11/labour-leadership-debate-jeremy-corbyn-owen-smith-gateshead-live

    There is so much LOL in that Guardian article.

    "Clutching Momentum and socialist party banners, and placards reading ‘Geordies got ya back Corbyn’, the crowd swarmed around the Labour leader as he got out of his car. Owen Smith received no such welcome."
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Speedy said:

    JackW said:

    Speedy said:

    JackW said:

    Nate Silver's latest forecasts :

    Clinton 86.2 .. Trump 13.8 - Polls Only
    Clinton 76.1 .. Trump 23.9 - Polls Plus
    Clinton 88.7 .. Trump 11.2 - Nowcast

    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#now

    His forecasts are again clunky.

    The Trump collapse has not been uniform as his model assumes.

    We have enough proof from enough state polls to disprove his model.

    For instance N.Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Nevada, and Missouri are on the edge according to state polls, but in his model there are not.
    There are 3 models here and frankly your arguments were made in 08/12 by others and Nate was entirely vindicated.
    Forecasting the results in 50 states, of which only 15 or less are swing states doesn't require magical powers (unlike 650 seats, of which 100 are marginal).

    Everyone can do it due to the small number of swing states, provided they look at the state polls, instead of the national polls.
    Yeah, Nate's performance in the UK was abysmal.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2016
    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    The picture was much more complicated than that.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2016
    Corbyn will be cheering in the Olympics now....Team GB vs Venezuela in the cycling.....
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    It's easier to say England voted Leave. It was only London, which has relatively few Englishmen in it, that voted otherwise.
    There are at least 4-5 million Englishmen in London (even accounting for the high foreign born population) which is more than the entire population of Wales.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    They swung it by turning out in bigger than usual numbers.

    But also, professionals swung it, with 43% voting Leave, compared to the 35% or so that had been expected.

    In truth, class, geography, social attitudes all interacted. In Essex or Kent say, most professional people likely voted Leave. In London or Surrey, they voted Remain.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2016
    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    They swung it by turning out in bigger than usual numbers.

    But also, professionals swung it, with 43% voting Leave, compared to the 35% or so that had been expected.

    In truth, class, geography, social attitudes all interacted. In Essex or Kent say, most professional people likely voted Leave. In London or Surrey, they voted Remain.
    Even in Surrey, it was a lot closer than the simple narrative would suggest. It was basically 50/50, in an area of the country stuffed with wealthy educated London working individuals.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    Is Faisal still running around like a panic stricken, headless chicken as he did in the days after LEAVE won? :smiley:
    Faisal's still an incredibly bitter Twitterer :).
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    JackW said:

    Florida - Opinion Savvy/Fox13

    Clinton 45 .. Trump 44

    http://opinionsavvy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/OS-FL-General-8.11.16.pdf

    My favourate poll salad of the week.

    Maine, New York and Florida are going to vote to the right of Pennsylvania and Georgia.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    Heard two people separately today wondering what was going on with Brexit, why we haven't left, why we haven't even heard when we're going to leave, etc.. People are starting to get a tad impatient...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited August 2016
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is normally the Midlands which determines elections, the South voting Tory and the North and London Labour but in EU ref it was probably the South on reflection which won it yes (though Wales was also close to the UK average). The North and Midlands were strongly Leave and London and Scotland were strongly Remain, it was the Southern Home Counties vote narrowly going for Leave which saw it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sovereignty but also even in the South immigration was an issue too. That said whole swathes of SouthEast England did vote Remain, from Tunbridge Wells to Guildford and West Oxfordshire to Epsom. It was not Basildon or Nuneaton which were the marginal areas in EUref (they voted strongly for Leave) but the likes of South Bucks and Sevenoaks both of which voted narrowly for Brexit
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    It's easier to say England voted Leave. It was only London, which has relatively few Englishmen in it, that voted otherwise.
    There are at least 4-5 million Englishmen in London (even accounting for the high foreign born population) which is more than the entire population of Wales.
    How did they vote?

    I suspect that when you strip out the remainder it will be very like the rest of the country - see Bexley/Havering etc.

    UKIP are really the English (and to a degree Welsh) National Party.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    John_M said:

    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    Is Faisal still running around like a panic stricken, headless chicken as he did in the days after LEAVE won? :smiley:
    Faisal's still an incredibly bitter Twitterer :).
    I'll never forget the number of times he called Gove "Lord High Chancellor". I bet that sneering alone turned a few voters to Leave.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2016
    Team GB into the Olympic final in the cycling...Jezza crying into this soya latte....

    Going to need to up it up for the final.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    John_M said:

    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    Is Faisal still running around like a panic stricken, headless chicken as he did in the days after LEAVE won? :smiley:
    Faisal's still an incredibly bitter Twitterer :).
    :(
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Artist said:

    Any chance of a Labour hold in Renfrewshire?

    No.
  • Options
    ThrakThrak Posts: 494

    Corbyn will be cheering in the Olympics now....Team GB vs Venezuela in the cycling.....

    And Venezuela finished as far behind as Corbyn's party will at the next election......
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is normally the Midlands which determines elections, the South voting Tory and the North and London Labour but in EU ref it was probably the South on reflection which won it yes (though Wales was also close to the UK average). The North and Midlands were strongly Leave and London and Scotland were strongly Remain, it was the Southern Home Counties vote narrowly going for Leave which saw it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Because of the choice. You can have any two out of the following three. Economic integration, national sovereignty, and democracy. We voted for the last two. We thought they mattered more than a single Market in selling life assurance.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    edited August 2016
    SeanT said:

    Jesus sweet Jesus. Labour are fucked

    "Can war ever be justified?

    Smith says yes it can. He recalls as a child meeting miners’ leader Will Painter, who fought in the Spanish civil war against fascism. An audience member laughs, which Smith says is “disrespectful”."

    From 8:32, here:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/aug/11/labour-leadership-debate-jeremy-corbyn-owen-smith-gateshead-live

    He says he agrees with Corbyn there should be a war powers act to ensure parliament will always have a vote on matters of future wars. But he says there have been times that the UK should have intervened, citing Rwanda.

    Corbyn says he can never say never, because there have been wars of liberation which should be fought. But he says there has to be a holistic approach to war and peace, mentioning arms sales to Saudi Arabia while the nation fights a war in Yemen.


    First, what the f--- is a 'holistic approach to war and peace'?*

    *ok, I know what it means in context, taking a joined up approach etc etc, but by gods I hate seeing that awful word, holistic, used in the context of something serious, since whatever it's actual meaning, what it usually signifies is bullsh*t.

    Second, is a war powers act to ensure parliament has to vote on future wars really a good idea? What if immediate action is required? Given the need to act in emergencies, presumably there would be provisions to cover some action, so we'd get into the situation where we never ever declare war no matter how much we get involved.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    Speedy said:

    JackW said:

    Florida - Opinion Savvy/Fox13

    Clinton 45 .. Trump 44

    http://opinionsavvy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/OS-FL-General-8.11.16.pdf

    My favourate poll salad of the week.

    Maine, New York and Florida are going to vote to the right of Pennsylvania and Georgia.
    Florida maybe, Maine and NY certainly not, Hillary still has clear leads in both
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JadeFrancesAzim: A speaker at my CLP just called the Labour government the 'wilderness years'. Help me.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2016
    Thrak said:

    Corbyn will be cheering in the Olympics now....Team GB vs Venezuela in the cycling.....

    And Venezuela finished as far behind as Corbyn's party will at the next election......
    Tory conspiracy...
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    I would not, as Jeremy has done, vote against my party 500 times. I will do what I have always done is vote Labour

    Bless his heart, Smith is trying. He has forgotten that Corbyn's rebellions against the party are always justified. Even when rebelling while Leader.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Scott_P said:

    @JadeFrancesAzim: A speaker at my CLP just called the Labour government the 'wilderness years'. Help me.

    Global popcorn supplies at an all-time low
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    It's easier to say England voted Leave. It was only London, which has relatively few Englishmen in it, that voted otherwise.
    There are at least 4-5 million Englishmen in London (even accounting for the high foreign born population) which is more than the entire population of Wales.
    How did they vote?

    I suspect that when you strip out the remainder it will be very like the rest of the country - see Bexley/Havering etc.

    UKIP are really the English (and to a degree Welsh) National Party.
    The majority of English Londoners voted Remain, only 5 out of 33 London boroughs voted to Leave, all of them on the outer edge of the City
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Smith says it was a lie that the former Labour government caused the economic crash. “We should have been stronger challenging that, much much stronger.”

    Still peddling that one, are they?

    Tories certainly implied Labour caused it, but as senior people as David Cameron in conference speeches specified Labour did not cause it, but that they made it worse and made recovery harder. People will disagree with that too, but despite the implication they caused it, maintaining the problem was too much stating Labour caused it is a comfort blanket.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited August 2016
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is normally the Midlands which determines elections, the South voting Tory and the North and London Labour but in EU ref it was probably the South on reflection which won it yes (though Wales was also close to the UK average). The North and Midlands were strongly Leave and London and Scotland were strongly Remain, it was the Southern Home Counties vote narrowly going for Leave which saw it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sovereignty but also even in the south immigration was an issue too. That said whole swathes of SouthEast England did vote Remain, from Tunbridge Wells to Guildford and West Oxfordshire to Epsom
    This map of voting is fascinating. Generally, richer areas voted REMAIN, but not always.

    Some LEAVE votes are intriguingly intense and decisive. North Devon: 57 to 43 LEAVE. Dorset: universally LEAVE. Etc.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
    Generally the further away in England an area was from central London the more likely it was to vote Leave
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    It's easier to say England voted Leave. It was only London, which has relatively few Englishmen in it, that voted otherwise.
    There are at least 4-5 million Englishmen in London (even accounting for the high foreign born population) which is more than the entire population of Wales.
    How did they vote?

    I suspect that when you strip out the remainder it will be very like the rest of the country - see Bexley/Havering etc.

    UKIP are really the English (and to a degree Welsh) National Party.
    The majority of English Londoners voted Remain, only 5 out of 33 London boroughs voted to Leave, all of them on the outer edge of the City
    Is there polling on this?
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2016
    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    JackW said:

    Speedy said:

    JackW said:

    Nate Silver's latest forecasts :

    Clinton 86.2 .. Trump 13.8 - Polls Only
    Clinton 76.1 .. Trump 23.9 - Polls Plus
    Clinton 88.7 .. Trump 11.2 - Nowcast

    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#now

    His forecasts are again clunky.

    The Trump collapse has not been uniform as his model assumes.

    We have enough proof from enough state polls to disprove his model.

    For instance N.Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Nevada, and Missouri are on the edge according to state polls, but in his model there are not.
    There are 3 models here and frankly your arguments were made in 08/12 by others and Nate was entirely vindicated.
    Forecasting the results in 50 states, of which only 15 or less are swing states doesn't require magical powers (unlike 650 seats, of which 100 are marginal).

    Everyone can do it due to the small number of swing states, provided they look at the state polls, instead of the national polls.
    Yeah, Nate's performance in the UK was abysmal.
    Indeed.
    Watching at the state polls right now, Hillary would win 291, Trump 144 and 103 EV would be too close to call.

    Nevada, Arizona, Florida, Iowa, Georgia, Missouri, Maine's CD-2, S.Carolina and N.Carolina would be too close to call, with Ohio and Nebraska's CD-2 just above that zone for Hillary.

    I don't need Nate Silver to tell me that.

    Now if Trump ever recovers, his recovery would probably be just as uneven as his slump.
    But so far Pennsylvania, N.H and Maine are the states to watch to see if Trump has a chance.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MichaelLCrick: London Labour Briefing 1983, when Jeremy Corbyn led campaign to defend Militant's right to work within Labour Party https://t.co/DwQYR9YQgl
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is normally the Midlands which determines elections, the South voting Tory and the North and London Labour but in EU ref it was probably the South on reflection which won it yes (though Wales was also close to the UK average). The North and Midlands were strongly Leave and London and Scotland were strongly Remain, it was the Southern Home Counties vote narrowly going for Leave which saw it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sovereignty but also even in the south immigration was an issue too. That said whole swathes of SouthEast England did vote Remain, from Tunbridge Wells to Guildford and West Oxfordshire to Epsom
    This map of voting is fascinating. Generally, richer areas voted REMAIN, but not always.

    Some LEAVE votes are intriguingly intense and decisive. North Devon: 57 to 43 LEAVE. Dorset: universally LEAVE. Etc.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
    Where I am, the most Labour friendly part of Wiltshire, Swindon (which has had Labour MPs), voted Leave by a higher margin than the Tory Heartland of the rest (heartland bar 1 seat which had been LD that is)
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    kle4 said:

    Smith says it was a lie that the former Labour government caused the economic crash. “We should have been stronger challenging that, much much stronger.”

    Still peddling that one, are they?

    Tories certainly implied Labour caused it, but as senior people as David Cameron in conference speeches specified Labour did not cause it, but that they made it worse and made recovery harder. People will disagree with that too, but despite the implication they caused it, maintaining the problem was too much stating Labour caused it is a comfort blanket.

    Gordon Brown..

    Gordon is and was a moron

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTKORcr1jhY
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    It's easier to say England voted Leave. It was only London, which has relatively few Englishmen in it, that voted otherwise.
    There are at least 4-5 million Englishmen in London (even accounting for the high foreign born population) which is more than the entire population of Wales.
    How did they vote?

    I suspect that when you strip out the remainder it will be very like the rest of the country - see Bexley/Havering etc.

    UKIP are really the English (and to a degree Welsh) National Party.
    The majority of English Londoners voted Remain, only 5 out of 33 London boroughs voted to Leave, all of them on the outer edge of the City
    Is there polling on this?
    Well it is a statement of the obvious, English Londoners are disproportionally Labour voters and relatively young and also more likely to be graduates, all groups which voted Remain
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is normally the Midlands which determines elections, the South voting Tory and the North and London Labour but in EU ref it was probably the South on reflection which won it yes (though Wales was also close to the UK average). The North and Midlands were strongly Leave and London and Scotland were strongly Remain, it was the Southern Home Counties vote narrowly going for Leave which saw it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sovereignty but also even in the south immigration was an issue too. That said whole swathes of SouthEast England did vote Remain, from Tunbridge Wells to Guildford and West Oxfordshire to Epsom
    This map of voting is fascinating. Generally, richer areas voted REMAIN, but not always.

    Some LEAVE votes are intriguingly intense and decisive. North Devon: 57 to 43 LEAVE. Dorset: universally LEAVE. Etc.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
    Where I am, the most Labour friendly part of Wiltshire, Swindon (which has had Labour MPs), voted Leave by a higher margin than the Tory Heartland of the rest (heartland bar 1 seat which had been LD that is)
    North or South? Am a southerner myself :p
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is normally the Midlands which determines elections, the South voting Tory and the North and London Labour but in EU ref it was probably the South on reflection which won it yes (though Wales was also close to the UK average). The North and Midlands were strongly Leave and London and Scotland were strongly Remain, it was the Southern Home Counties vote narrowly going for Leave which saw it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sovereignty but also even in the south immigration was an issue too. That said whole swathes of SouthEast England did vote Remain, from Tunbridge Wells to Guildford and West Oxfordshire to Epsom
    This map of voting is fascinating. Generally, richer areas voted REMAIN, but not always.

    Some LEAVE votes are intriguingly intense and decisive. North Devon: 57 to 43 LEAVE. Dorset: universally LEAVE. Etc.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
    Where I am, the most Labour friendly part of Wiltshire, Swindon (which has had Labour MPs), voted Leave by a higher margin than the Tory Heartland of the rest (heartland bar 1 seat which had been LD that is)
    North or South? Am a southerner myself :p
    Sorry to disappoint, but my commas went astray. In Wiltshire, but not Swindon. I'm in real Wiltshire, the SW.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    It's easier to say England voted Leave. It was only London, which has relatively few Englishmen in it, that voted otherwise.
    There are at least 4-5 million Englishmen in London (even accounting for the high foreign born population) which is more than the entire population of Wales.
    Some foreign born people in London voted LEAVE - like yours truly :)
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    kle4 said:


    Sorry to disappoint, but my commas went astray. In Wiltshire, but not Swindon. I'm in real Wiltshire, the SW.

    Missing out on the glories of the Magic Roundabout.. among other things I can't really remember right now...
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    How fun

    Australian cricket star releases Bollywood film

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-37008172
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    Jesus sweet Jesus. Labour are fucked

    "Can war ever be justified?

    Smith says yes it can. He recalls as a child meeting miners’ leader Will Painter, who fought in the Spanish civil war against fascism. An audience member laughs, which Smith says is “disrespectful”."

    From 8:32, here:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/aug/11/labour-leadership-debate-jeremy-corbyn-owen-smith-gateshead-live

    He says he agrees with Corbyn there should be a war powers act to ensure parliament will always have a vote on matters of future wars. But he says there have been times that the UK should have intervened, citing Rwanda.

    Corbyn says he can never say never, because there have been wars of liberation which should be fought. But he says there has to be a holistic approach to war and peace, mentioning arms sales to Saudi Arabia while the nation fights a war in Yemen.


    First, what the f--- is a 'holistic approach to war and peace'?*

    *ok, I know what it means in context, taking a joined up approach etc etc, but by gods I hate seeing that awful word, holistic, used in the context of something serious, since whatever it's actual meaning, what it usually signifies is bullsh*t.

    Second, is a war powers act to ensure parliament has to vote on future wars really a good idea? What if immediate action is required? Given the need to act in emergencies, presumably there would be provisions to cover some action, so we'd get into the situation where we never ever declare war no matter how much we get involved.
    The United States Congress has that power over declaring War.

    But US Presidents have found a trick of ordering military action without a declaration of war, a very controversial tactic that has cost Presidents who use it a lot of political capital.

    And has made the american public very sensitive to military action.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:


    Sorry to disappoint, but my commas went astray. In Wiltshire, but not Swindon. I'm in real Wiltshire, the SW.

    Missing out on the glories of the Magic Roundabout.. among other things I can't really remember right now...
    Now now, Swindon is a great place...to pass on the motorway :)
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is normally the Midlands which determines elections, the South voting Tory and the North and London Labour but in EU ref it was probably the South on reflection which won it yes (though Wales was also close to the UK average). The North and Midlands were strongly Leave and London and Scotland were strongly Remain, it was the Southern Home Counties vote narrowly going for Leave which saw it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Because of the choice. You can have any two out of the following three. Economic integration, national sovereignty, and democracy. We voted for the last two. We thought they mattered more than a single Market in selling life assurance.
    With hindsight, it's obvious, but it certainly wasn't at the time: when it comes to national decisions the British electorate clearly don't think, and vote, just on the money. We do have a sense of who we are and what really matters. I was deeply worried before the vote, and said so on here, that I feared we might have lost that. And that millions would bottle it.

    We didn't, and we haven't.

    I find that very comforting and reassuring.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:


    Sorry to disappoint, but my commas went astray. In Wiltshire, but not Swindon. I'm in real Wiltshire, the SW.

    Missing out on the glories of the Magic Roundabout.. among other things I can't really remember right now...
    Now now, Swindon is a great place...to pass on the motorway :)
    Luckily I didn't actually live in Swindon proper... just in the borough. ;)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    It's easier to say England voted Leave. It was only London, which has relatively few Englishmen in it, that voted otherwise.
    There are at least 4-5 million Englishmen in London (even accounting for the high foreign born population) which is more than the entire population of Wales.
    Some foreign born people in London voted LEAVE - like yours truly :)
    Some English born voters in the Midlands voted Remain too but we are talking averages here
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is normally the Midlands which determines elections, the South voting Tory and the North and London Labour but in EU ref it was probably the South on reflection which won it yes (though Wales was also close to the UK average). The North and Midlands were strongly Leave and London and Scotland were strongly Remain, it was the Southern Home Counties vote narrowly going for Leave which saw it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sovereignty but also even in the south immigration was an issue too. That said whole swathes of SouthEast England did vote Remain, from Tunbridge Wells to Guildford and West Oxfordshire to Epsom
    This map of voting is fascinating. Generally, richer areas voted REMAIN, but not always.

    Some LEAVE votes are intriguingly intense and decisive. North Devon: 57 to 43 LEAVE. Dorset: universally LEAVE. Etc.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
    Lol @ Bradford voting Leave.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    SeanT said:

    There are still endless empty seats at th'Olympics. On day six.

    This is just failure.

    I'm not surprised, I read countless reports over how unpopular major sporting events have become in Brazil.

    The cost and corruption associated with them at a time of economic and political crisis in Brazil has tarnished them.

    These are the worst Olympics in a century.
    But what can you expect ?

    No country can withstand the burden of hosting both the World Cup and the Olympics in just 2 years.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is normally the Midlands which determines elections, the South voting Tory and the North and London Labour but in EU ref it was probably the South on reflection which won it yes (though Wales was also close to the UK average). The North and Midlands were strongly Leave and London and Scotland were strongly Remain, it was the Southern Home Counties vote narrowly going for Leave which saw it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Because of the choice. You can have any two out of the following three. Economic integration, national sovereignty, and democracy. We voted for the last two. We thought they mattered more than a single Market in selling life assurance.
    With hindsight, it's obvious, but it certainly wasn't at the time: when it comes to national decisions the British electorate clearly don't think, and vote, just on the money. We do have a sense of who we are and what really matters. I was deeply worried before the vote, and said so on here, that I feared we might have lost that. And that millions would bottle it.

    We didn't, and we haven't.

    I find that very comforting and reassuring.
    Absolutely.

    And, even better, the roof didn't fall in.

    Remainiacs really overplayed their hand, eh?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited August 2016
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is nor it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sovereignty but also even in the south immigration was an issue too. That said whole swathes of SouthEast England did vote Remain, from Tunbridge Wells to Guildford and West Oxfordshire to Epsom
    This map of voting is fascinating. Generally, richer areas voted REMAIN, but not always.

    Some LEAVE votes are intriguingly intense and decisive. North Devon: 57 to 43 LEAVE. Dorset: universally LEAVE. Etc.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
    Generally the further away an area was from central London the more likely it was to vote Leave
    Mmm. So general as to be not really true. Scotland? Ulster?

    The biggest generalisation one can make is that the nation of England voted a fairly decisive LEAVE.

    I can see why Scots and Norns are hacked off, but there we go. They are intrinsically weaker, smaller, lesser nations, entirely beaten down and colonised, peopled by forelock-tuggers who flinch at the whip. They are unused to the bracing vigours of independence.
    It only applies in England and Wales (Monmouthshire and Vale of Glamorgan voted Remain for example and are both close to the English border).

    Of course Wales was also colonised and united with England well before Scotland but the Welsh still voted Leave

  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    It's easier to say England voted Leave. It was only London, which has relatively few Englishmen in it, that voted otherwise.
    There are at least 4-5 million Englishmen in London (even accounting for the high foreign born population) which is more than the entire population of Wales.
    Some foreign born people in London voted LEAVE - like yours truly :)
    Some people even with PhD's are naïve.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    They swung it by turning out in bigger than usual numbers.

    But also, professionals swung it, with 43% voting Leave, compared to the 35% or so that had been expected.

    In truth, class, geography, social attitudes all interacted. In Essex or Kent say, most professional people likely voted Leave. In London or Surrey, they voted Remain.
    My "campaign" in Hart was unsuccessful as the district went Remain 52.4% to 47.6%, but we are one of the wealthiest parts of the country and the Leave campaign was very low key. In fact, my efforts alone probably accounted for 7-10% of elector contact by Leave throughout the whole district.

    Remain lost not only because of swing areas, but because it didn't convince even in places where it should have won by miles.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is normally the Midlands which determines elections, the South voting Tory and the North and London Labour but in EU ref it was probably the South on reflection which won it yes (though Wales was also close to the UK average). The North and Midlands were strongly Leave and London and Scotland were strongly Remain, it was the Southern Home Counties vote narrowly going for Leave which saw it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Because of the choice. You can have any two out of the following three. Economic integration, national sovereignty, and democracy. We voted for the last two. We thought they mattered more than a single Market in selling life assurance.
    With hindsight, it's obvious, but it certainly wasn't at the time: when it comes to national decisions the British electorate clearly don't think, and vote, just on the money. We do have a sense of who we are and what really matters. I was deeply worried before the vote, and said so on here, that I feared we might have lost that. And that millions would bottle it.

    We didn't, and we haven't.

    I find that very comforting and reassuring.
    Absolutely.

    And, even better, the roof didn't fall in.

    Remainiacs really overplayed their hand, eh?
    Probably, although in fairness we will have to wait and see about the roof.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is nor it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sovereignty but also even in the south immigration was an issue too. That said whole swathes of SouthEast England did vote Remain, from Tunbridge Wells to Guildford and West Oxfordshire to Epsom
    This map of voting is fascinating. Generally, richer areas voted REMAIN, but not always.

    Some LEAVE votes are intriguingly intense and decisive. North Devon: 57 to 43 LEAVE. Dorset: universally LEAVE. Etc.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
    Generally the further away an area was from central London the more likely it was to vote Leave
    Mmm. So general as to be not really true. Scotland? Ulster?

    The biggest generalisation one can make is that the nation of England voted a fairly decisive LEAVE.

    I can see why Scots and Norns are hacked off, but there we go. They are intrinsically weaker, smaller, lesser nations, entirely beaten down and colonised, peopled by forelock-tuggers who flinch at the whip. They are unused to the bracing vigours of independence.
    I doubt Scotland is intrinsically more Europhile than the rest of the UK. And Northern Ireland largely divided on sectarian lines, with a non-aligned middle class carrying it for Remain.

    Incidentally, Moray almost went Leave - Remain only carried it by a whisker. I really wish it had gone Leave to sour Sturgeon's EU milk.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Is tonight one of those nights for loony Leavers to frot themselves blind as they conveniently forget that the referendum was fought and won on keeping out foreigners?

    In which case, I'll check out again.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is nor it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sovereignty but also even in the south immigration was an issue too. That said whole swathes of SouthEast England did vote Remain, from Tunbridge Wells to Guildford and West Oxfordshire to Epsom
    This map of voting is fascinating. Generally, richer areas voted REMAIN, but not always.

    Some LEAVE votes are intriguingly intense and decisive. North Devon: 57 to 43 LEAVE. Dorset: universally LEAVE. Etc.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
    Generally the further away an area was from central London the more likely it was to vote Leave
    Mmm. So general as to be not really true. Scotland? Ulster?

    The biggest generalisation one can make is that the nation of England voted a fairly decisive LEAVE.

    I can see why Scots and Norns are hacked off, but there we go. They are intrinsically weaker, smaller, lesser nations, entirely beaten down and colonised, peopled by forelock-tuggers who flinch at the whip. They are unused to the bracing vigours of independence.
    It only applies in England and Wales (Monmouthshire and Vale of Glamorgan voted Remain for example and are both close to the English border).

    Of course Wales was also colonised and united with England well before Scotland but the Welsh still voted Leave

    Monmouthshire is essentially English. 50.4% Remain, probably due to the gentlemen farmers :).
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    The picture was much more complicated than that.
    Of course. The picture can be granulated so that it comes down to individuals - like friends of mine - who voted IN or OUT on tiny little issues (like vaping or herbal remedies).

    What I am complaining about, mildly, is this lazy media narrative that it was white working class northerners Wot Won It.

    It wasn't. The South was majority OUT, and 43% of ABs voted OUT, too
    ABs that voted Leave kept (and are keeping) very quiet about it. Friends of mine who did so contacted me privately on facebook (I'd say only 25-30% were for Leave) whilst my mainstream facebook feed is full of Remoaning.

    But what's annoying me most today is a lot of 38degree hope-not-hate resharing about trying to boycott the Sun, Mail, and Express.

    Or some such.

    I automatically think less of any friend of mine who's posted it.

    What is it about Facebook that can make you so angry at friends?
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Is tonight one of those nights for loony Leavers to frot themselves blind as they conveniently forget that the referendum was fought and won on keeping out foreigners?

    In which case, I'll check out again.

    All rather simple really and nothing to do with immigration, For 40 years I’ve watched a common market, morph into a political union with aspirations of a federal state. I don’t want to see my country governed from abroad, our laws emasculated, our democracy tainted or our head of state supplanted.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited August 2016
    If you wanted to be a really snobby Remainer you could also use a chavometer and say the higher the percentage of chavs, the more likely the place was to vote Leave. Hence Cambridge, Oxford, central London, Monmouth, Tunbridge Wells, Harrogate, Windsor etc all voted Remain, West Bromwich, Merthyr Tydfil, Plymouth, Barking, Harlow, Nuneaton, Nottingham, Bradford, Sunderland, Burnley, Coventry etc all voted Leave.

    Even in Scotland Edinburgh had a higher Remain vote than Glasgow
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    Faisal Islam feels the same way about Remain as Andrew Neil does about Leave, so I guess they balance out.

    Actually, to be fair, I'd say the referendum coverage was broadly balanced by the media, except for the BBC website pumping up a few stories for Remain - e.g. the Wollaston defection.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    It's easier to say England voted Leave. It was only London, which has relatively few Englishmen in it, that voted otherwise.
    There are at least 4-5 million Englishmen in London (even accounting for the high foreign born population) which is more than the entire population of Wales.
    How did they vote?

    I suspect that when you strip out the remainder it will be very like the rest of the country - see Bexley/Havering etc.

    UKIP are really the English (and to a degree Welsh) National Party.
    The majority of English Londoners voted Remain, only 5 out of 33 London boroughs voted to Leave, all of them on the outer edge of the City
    Is there polling on this?
    Well it is a statement of the obvious, English Londoners are disproportionally Labour voters and relatively young and also more likely to be graduates, all groups which voted Remain
    Actually I see it more on the benefit vs burden side.

    London obviously has benefited the most from the EU, along with those who make their vast fortunes in London (the Cotswold's), plus scotland and N.I. because they see the EU as a counter force to the english.

    Breaking it by cosmopolitan finance and anti-english sentiment vs everyone else is a neat way.

    You can't say that all multiculturals voted Remain, because heavy muslim areas didn't went for Remain outside of London.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    John_M said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It is nor it home.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sovereignty but also even in the south immigration was an issue too. That said whole swathes of SouthEast England did vote Remain, from Tunbridge Wells to Guildford and West Oxfordshire to Epsom
    This map of voting is fascinating. Generally, richer areas voted REMAIN, but not always.

    Some LEAVE votes are intriguingly intense and decisive. North Devon: 57 to 43 LEAVE. Dorset: universally LEAVE. Etc.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
    Generally the further away an area was from central London the more likely it was to vote Leave
    Mmm. So

    I can see why Scots and Norns are hacked off, but there we go. They are intrinsically weaker, smaller, lesser nations, entirely beaten down and colonised, peopled by forelock-tuggers who flinch at the whip. They are unused to the bracing vigours of independence.
    It only applies in England and Wales (Monmouthshire and Vale of Glamorgan voted Remain for example and are both close to the English border).

    Of course Wales was also colonised and united with England well before Scotland but the Welsh still voted Leave

    Monmouthshire is essentially English. 50.4% Remain, probably due to the gentlemen farmers :).
    Indeed, confirms the general point
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    Faisal Islam feels the same way about Remain as Andrew Neil does about Leave, so I guess they balance out.

    Actually, to be fair, I'd say the referendum coverage was broadly balanced by the media, except for the BBC website pumping up a few stories for Remain - e.g. the Wollaston defection.
    By the way, what happened to Wollaston ?
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,008
    The correlation in England between English-only national identity and Leave was +75%. That's higher than the correlation with C2DE social grade.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Is tonight one of those nights for loony Leavers to frot themselves blind as they conveniently forget that the referendum was fought and won on keeping out foreigners?

    In which case, I'll check out again.

    bye.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    nunu said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sovereignty but also even in the south immigration was an issue too. That said whole swathes of SouthEast England did vote Remain, from Tunbridge Wells to Guildford and West Oxfordshire to Epsom
    This map of voting is fascinating. Generally, richer areas voted REMAIN, but not always.

    Some LEAVE votes are intriguingly intense and decisive. North Devon: 57 to 43 LEAVE. Dorset: universally LEAVE. Etc.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
    Lol @ Bradford voting Leave.
    SeanT is right that the map is fascinating. Basically because it's a good proxy for the UK socio-cultural divide.

    For example, the hinterland of Cambridge, as well as Cambridge, being 'Remainy'. Plus Bristol, Exeter, Bath, Brighton, Norwich, Oxford, Cardiff and Manchester.

    All places that are very left-liberal, yuppie, new worldy, hippy, internationalist, and middle class/graduatey.

    I fear Winchester may be going that way too.

    A good chunk of the commuter belt too - like Tunbridge Wells, Guildford, Thames Valley and St. Albans. But not all, and not everywhere. Probably status quo voters.

    But, anyway, I've never felt as estranged from my own peer group as I have after this vote.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    Faisal Islam feels the same way about Remain as Andrew Neil does about Leave, so I guess they balance out.

    Actually, to be fair, I'd say the referendum coverage was broadly balanced by the media, except for the BBC website pumping up a few stories for Remain - e.g. the Wollaston defection.
    By the way, what happened to Wollaston ?
    I couldn't care less.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    edited August 2016

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    Faisal Islam feels the same way about Remain as Andrew Neil does about Leave, so I guess they balance out.

    Faisal is the very definition of a journalist from The Bubble.

    I thought he was going to burst a blood vessel in the days immediately after Brexit. Felt like reaching into the telly and saying "calm yourself Faisal. It may seem like the world has ended in London but life goes on for the rest of us". ;)

    The formidable Laura K was much more stoical about it all I felt.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    It's easier to say England voted Leave. It was only London, which has relatively few Englishmen in it, that voted otherwise.
    There are at least 4-5 million Englishmen in London (even accounting for the high foreign born population) which is more than the entire population of Wales.
    How did they vote?

    I suspect that when you strip out the remainder it will be very like the rest of the country - see Bexley/Havering etc.

    UKIP are really the English (and to a degree Welsh) National Party.
    The majority of English Londoners voted Remain, only 5 out of 33 London boroughs voted to Leave, all of them on the outer edge of the City
    Is there polling on this?
    Well it is a statement of the obvious, English Londoners are disproportionally Labour voters and relatively young and also more likely to be graduates, all groups which voted Remain
    Actually I see it more on the benefit vs burden side.

    London obviously has benefited the most from the EU, along with those who make their vast fortunes in London (the Cotswold's), plus scotland and N.I. because they see the EU as a counter force to the english.

    Breaking it by cosmopolitan finance and anti-english sentiment vs everyone else is a neat way.

    You can't say that all multiculturals voted Remain, because heavy muslim areas didn't went for Remain outside of London.
    Agree on the whole though 70% of Muslims voted Remain
    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited August 2016

    nunu said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sover
    This map of voting is fascinating
    Lol @ Bradford voting Leave.
    SeanT is right that the map is fascinating. Basically because it's a good proxy for the UK socio-cultural divide.

    For example, the hinterland of Cambridge, as well as Cambridge, being 'Remainy'. Plus Bristol, Exeter, Bath, Brighton, Norwich, Oxford, Cardiff and Manchester.

    All places that are very left-liberal, yuppie, new worldy, hippy, internationalist, and middle class/graduatey.

    I fear Winchester may be going that way too.

    A good chunk of the commuter belt too - like Tunbridge Wells, Guildford, Thames Valley and St. Albans. But not all, and not everywhere. Probably status quo voters.

    But, anyway, I've never felt as estranged from my own peer group as I have after this vote.
    Basically areas with lots of graduates and which were reasonably well off voted Remain, areas with lots of working class voters and which have not done so well out of the country's prosperity voted Leave

    Indeed there was a far greater class divide in the EU referendum than there was at the last general election.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2016
    Smashed it in the heats of the team spin.....although Wiggins legs went.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited August 2016
    Just a little note regarding the killing of a jihadist in Ontario earlier.

    An intercept, especially of someone like Aaron Driver who wasn't just inspired but would have had an influencer or a network mentoring him for a bit, is an almost ideal in having an impact on the likes of IS and wannabe associates.

    1. It raises security concerns and IS are paranoid about it. The use of an opponents paranoia is a good weapon in damaging and destroying them.

    2. For a Jihadist, especially one without battlefield experience, the thought of not even having your moment of glory before you get a hole in your head is not attractive.

    3. Thinking that could actually happen is going to change your behaviour and that can get you noticed.

    As much of carrying out an intercept just before the act is risky, its absolutely blunt nature (mainly because the perpetrator ends up dying) really sends signals especially if it appears the police had time to prepare their move.

    Sadly the source and nature of the information leading to Driver has come out, which is a balls.

    On an unrelated note, Russia have a habit of doing military stuff near its borders in August and they certainly seem to be looking for (or creating) a precedent on the Crimean border with Ukraine.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    There are certainly some oddities in the Leave/Remain figures by area.

    Not far from where I live, true-blue, prosperous, middle-class Tunbridge Wells voted Remain, whereas just a few miles away true-blue, prosperous, middle-class Sevenoaks voted Leave. The demographics are very similar, except that, of the two, Sevenoaks is wealthier and more fully stuffed with commuting lawyers and bankers.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Watching Faisal Islam's Out and Proud about Brexit.

    It's good, but it's the same lazy narrative. The white working class notherners swang it. Did they??

    Arguably they were bound to vote OUT: nothing to lose.

    And if it was just them OUT would have lost by Nabavi's 70/30

    What swang it was people like ME; affluent southerners, with money to lose, who still voted OUT. It would be nice if some journalist eventually interviewed the 43% of AB professionals, or the majority of southerners, who voted OUT...

    The South did vote Leave if you take the region as a whole but London voted Remain by a big margin and the South East only voted Leave by 51% to 49%, it was the Midlands, the East, Yorkshire and the North East which had the biggest margins for Leave and which won it for Brexit
    Yes, but the South voted OUT. Which is quite astonishing and counterfactual if all you watch is these endless TV documentaries saying it was all down to WWC northerners.

    It wasn't. The vote was won, as most votes are in the UK, by its most populous region: southern England.
    It.
    Yep, that's my analysis, and it's more interesting - to my mind - than the northern WWC voting OUT

    Why did people like ME - prosperous southerners, with stuff to lose - vote GO?
    Sover
    This map of voting is fascinating
    Lol @ Bradford voting Leave.
    SeanT
    Basically areas with lots of graduates and which were reasonably well off voted Remain, areas with lots of working class voters and which were have not done so well out of the country's prosperity voted Leave

    Indeed there was a far greater class divide in the EU referendum than there was at the last general election.
    But I think that's an oversimplification that papers over the cracks of a lot of nuances, and draws the wrong conclusions.

    Too easy to fall into a trap of wealthy/educated = Remain, and poor/stupid = Leave.

    Which many people do fall into, willingly, of course. Particularly Remainers.
This discussion has been closed.