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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » At the end of April YouGov had Corbyn beating Theresa May b

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited August 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » At the end of April YouGov had Corbyn beating Theresa May by 7% on its “best PM” ratings?

Back at the end of April when the Tories were totally split on the referendum YouGov tested how Corbyn did in its “best PM” polling against Cameron and a number of possible other contenders for the Tory leadership.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    hajime
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Glorious second, like Corbyn :D
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all.

    34% lead - Tis a mere flesh wound, Corbyn will win GE2020…
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,472
    edited August 2016
    The best way to make people think you would make a good PM is actually to get the job, and then set about it in a reasonably professional and organised way. Theresa had the chance to do both, Corbyn won't ever be able to do either.

    /edit interestingly, despite the dramatic shift in view on 'best PM', the 'if there was an election tomorrow' polling is almost precisely back to where it was in March.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    The change in the polls might be down to incumbency in part but we should remember that the pre-change polls had Brown performing worse than Blair, and they proved prescient as to the longer-term outcome, once his honeymoon bounce dropped out of the figures.

    In this case, May was probably underrated during EURef - as were all Tory figures - due to the splits at the time in her party, which are now no longer visible. By contrast, Labour was then not so obviously divided as it now is. The current Tory unity and May's own political honeymoon will no doubt fade as the Brexit detail starts being debated but it's hard to see how Corbyn can ever recover any semblance of unity in Labour.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,402
    I agree with Mike that the charts in the thread header show that these comparators which pollsters are so fond of are really a waste of time, something that they will no doubt conveniently forget the next time.

    It also shows the declining view of Corbyn, at least outside the somewhat peculiar and totally distorted membership of the Labour Party.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    18% and falling think Jezza will make the best PM, yet he is nailed on to win the Labour leadership contest.

    Electoral suicide for Labour.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,436

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    18% and falling think Jezza will make the best PM, yet he is nailed on to win the Labour leadership contest.

    Electoral suicide for Labour.
    Morning all,

    Yes, but, all the pollsters are ex-Blairite Spads who are making the figures up so that the Tories remain in power etc etc.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    18% and falling think Jezza will make the best PM, yet he is nailed on to win the Labour leadership contest.

    Electoral suicide for Labour.
    And yet Owen Smith is testing the "literally anyone would be better than Corbyn" theory to destruction.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Morning!

    What Jezza needs is a magic voter tree.
  • Options

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    It's not a question of "playing" well or badly - it's JC's lifetime-long belief that Parliament (and elections) can't deliver socialism. All that's changed is that the Labour membership has come round to his way of thinking. Why is that? Because, for 13 years, we had "Labour men and Tory measures" - and if Labour "won" another election that's what we'd have again.

  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    It's not a question of "playing" well or badly - it's JC's lifetime-long belief that Parliament (and elections) can't deliver socialism. All that's changed is that the Labour membership has come round to his way of thinking. Why is that? Because, for 13 years, we had "Labour men and Tory measures" - and if Labour "won" another election that's what we'd have again.

    We didn't have Tory measures under Labour Govts.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    18% and falling think Jezza will make the best PM, yet he is nailed on to win the Labour leadership contest.

    Electoral suicide for Labour.
    And yet Owen Smith is testing the "literally anyone would be better than Corbyn" theory to destruction.
    Maybe it's just me, but Smith is aping Corbyn's Leftism purely for the votes - he's totally inauthentic and the phoniest phoney. I don't believe a word he says - even Andy Burnham's less shifty.

    If I squint, I can see the appeal of Corbyn - I can't see what Smith offers Labourites bar a better quality of suit. He's the symptom of the failed chicken coup - not the cause of it.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    18% and falling think Jezza will make the best PM, yet he is nailed on to win the Labour leadership contest.

    Electoral suicide for Labour.
    And yet Owen Smith is testing the "literally anyone would be better than Corbyn" theory to destruction.

    Well if you mean only 200bn we haven't got as opposed to Corbyn's 500 bn we haven't got, I guess it is an improvement from "completely insane" to "bonkers".
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,727

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    It's not a question of "playing" well or badly - it's JC's lifetime-long belief that Parliament (and elections) can't deliver socialism. All that's changed is that the Labour membership has come round to his way of thinking. Why is that? Because, for 13 years, we had "Labour men and Tory measures" - and if Labour "won" another election that's what we'd have again.

    Okaaay.
    Can anyone explain why he's bothering to be in parliament as an MP, appointing his shadow cabinet etc if he believes that "parliament cannot deliver socialism"?
    Also, does anyone know what he thinks can deliver socialism? He doesn't seem like a violent revolutionary, so I'm completely lost on his strategy.
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    FPT
    Sandpit said:

    Someone must have run the numbers as to how close trains can get to each other without touching - as they never do touch, yet both trains will be allowed to move around on their own suspension. Maybe as close as 12 inches?

    Closer than that. I've done some searching to find the kinetic envelope for UK rail vehicles and I've found the figures specified in "Railway Construction and Operational Requirements" 1977. This specifies a minimum clearance on existing lines of just 4 inches. For new lines it is 8 inches.
  • Options

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    It's not a question of "playing" well or badly - it's JC's lifetime-long belief that Parliament (and elections) can't deliver socialism. All that's changed is that the Labour membership has come round to his way of thinking. Why is that? Because, for 13 years, we had "Labour men and Tory measures" - and if Labour "won" another election that's what we'd have again.

    We didn't have Tory measures under Labour Govts.
    Most of the Peebie Tories appear to think that we don't have Tory measures these days either.

  • Options

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    It's not a question of "playing" well or badly - it's JC's lifetime-long belief that Parliament (and elections) can't deliver socialism. All that's changed is that the Labour membership has come round to his way of thinking. Why is that? Because, for 13 years, we had "Labour men and Tory measures" - and if Labour "won" another election that's what we'd have again.

    Okaaay.
    Can anyone explain why he's bothering to be in parliament as an MP, appointing his shadow cabinet etc if he believes that "parliament cannot deliver socialism"?
    Also, does anyone know what he thinks can deliver socialism? He doesn't seem like a violent revolutionary, so I'm completely lost on his strategy.
    Me too.
  • Options

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    18% and falling think Jezza will make the best PM, yet he is nailed on to win the Labour leadership contest.

    Electoral suicide for Labour.
    And yet Owen Smith is testing the "literally anyone would be better than Corbyn" theory to destruction.

    Well if you mean only 200bn we haven't got as opposed to Corbyn's 500 bn we haven't got, I guess it is an improvement from "completely insane" to "bonkers".
    Over what time frame are you talking? Anyway, I want to lend the government money - does this make me a wicked person in your eyes?

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    edited August 2016
    I see Corbyn has said he would not stand down even if he loses the next general election but 'let the members decide' according to today's Metro. So he is Labour leader for life then! Only catch is Theresa May becomes PM for life as a result
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    edited August 2016
    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Good morning, everyone.

    Nice to see Peaty got his gold.

    I wonder how much that difference is due to the Conservatives being rather more efficient at leadership contests. Of course, May's better than a unilateralist friend of Hamas, but the margin might be narrower otherwise.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    It's not a question of "playing" well or badly - it's JC's lifetime-long belief that Parliament (and elections) can't deliver socialism. All that's changed is that the Labour membership has come round to his way of thinking. Why is that? Because, for 13 years, we had "Labour men and Tory measures" - and if Labour "won" another election that's what we'd have again.

    The Labour membership has not come round to Corbyn’s way of thinking, they have simply been overwhelmed by a new set of members that had remained hidden under rocks since 97.
  • Options

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    18% and falling think Jezza will make the best PM, yet he is nailed on to win the Labour leadership contest.

    Electoral suicide for Labour.
    And yet Owen Smith is testing the "literally anyone would be better than Corbyn" theory to destruction.

    Well if you mean only 200bn we haven't got as opposed to Corbyn's 500 bn we haven't got, I guess it is an improvement from "completely insane" to "bonkers".
    Over what time frame are you talking? Anyway, I want to lend the government money - does this make me a wicked person in your eyes?

    You would be if you asked for it back.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168

    The change in the polls might be down to incumbency in part but we should remember that the pre-change polls had Brown performing worse than Blair, and they proved prescient as to the longer-term outcome, once his honeymoon bounce dropped out of the figures.

    In this case, May was probably underrated during EURef - as were all Tory figures - due to the splits at the time in her party, which are now no longer visible. By contrast, Labour was then not so obviously divided as it now is. The current Tory unity and May's own political honeymoon will no doubt fade as the Brexit detail starts being debated but it's hard to see how Corbyn can ever recover any semblance of unity in Labour.

    Brown actually did better than Blair in the polls in the run up to the 2005 election
  • Options

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    It's not a question of "playing" well or badly - it's JC's lifetime-long belief that Parliament (and elections) can't deliver socialism. All that's changed is that the Labour membership has come round to his way of thinking. Why is that? Because, for 13 years, we had "Labour men and Tory measures" - and if Labour "won" another election that's what we'd have again.

    We didn't have Tory measures under Labour Govts.
    Tuition fees - introduced by Labour.
    Prescription charges - introduced by Labour.
    Britain's nuclear arsenal - introduced by Labour (without telling Parliament).
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    If you looked at net F avourables at the time I think May was ahead of Corbyn, the fact he was better known probably made him lead as preferred PM
  • Options
    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    :):):)
  • Options

    Corbyn plays everything badly. it is no surprise that none but the diehards think he is any good.

    18% and falling think Jezza will make the best PM, yet he is nailed on to win the Labour leadership contest.

    Electoral suicide for Labour.
    And yet Owen Smith is testing the "literally anyone would be better than Corbyn" theory to destruction.

    Well if you mean only 200bn we haven't got as opposed to Corbyn's 500 bn we haven't got, I guess it is an improvement from "completely insane" to "bonkers".
    Over what time frame are you talking? Anyway, I want to lend the government money - does this make me a wicked person in your eyes?

    You would be if you asked for it back.

    You've lost me, alas.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    Well done to Adam Peaty too on getting Britain's first gold medal
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    PlatoSaid said:

    Morning!

    What Jezza needs is a magic voter tree.

    Then he should talk to his mates in Tower Hamlets.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,727
    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Wonderful image of an Islington dinner party where Fascist hyenas and running dogs are being served just desserts.
    What, no starters?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    While 'the incumbency effect' no doubt plays a part, along with 'honeymoon' and 'opponents couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery', I think its also fair to say May has made a decent fist of her first few weeks.

    A reshuffle which buried the Camaroons, quick trips to multiple European capitals to sort out the real negotiation ('heads of government to fix it, EU Commission to implement or get stuffed') and no unwarranted alarums or excitements.

    Imagine Prime Minister Leadsom instead......
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Good morning all.

    I can see Jeremy Corbyn's appeal (no, I have not taken leave of my senses). He has his views and will not flex or resile from them. He's said that he doesn't support a second referendum and that Brexit should be honoured. Given that 90% of his membership voted Remain, that's politically 'courageous' as Sir Humphrey would say.

    That's very different from most peoples idea of a politician. Unfortunately, I'm unable to become a Jezzolyte as I think his views are based on obstinacy, a limited intellect and a refusal to move on from the 70s. However, it contrasts very favourably with Smith who is simply wearing a socialist gimp suit and is clearly prepared to tell members anything in order to be elected.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    Someone must have run the numbers as to how close trains can get to each other without touching - as they never do touch, yet both trains will be allowed to move around on their own suspension. Maybe as close as 12 inches?

    Closer than that. I've done some searching to find the kinetic envelope for UK rail vehicles and I've found the figures specified in "Railway Construction and Operational Requirements" 1977. This specifies a minimum clearance on existing lines of just 4 inches. For new lines it is 8 inches.
    There's an intv floating about with a lady on the train. She said his head was 'snapped off'. I'd imagine being hit at a pretty high speed was likely to do that - or pulp your skull so it's academic either way.

    When I was small, there were lots of warnings about not leaning out of windows lest you were hit by trackside furniture. I'm amazed there are any trains with opening windows left. I wish there were - on Southern Rail you either broil or freeze with the air-conditioning. The day my train ran over an escaped mentally ill prisoner, we sat for hours in 95F.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Meanwhile .... those of you who doubt the POTUS predicative merits of Nate Silver at 538 or Sam Wang of Princeton .... or god forbid JackW at ARSE4US (book your cell at Auchentennach Dungeons now !! .. :naughty: ) .... other models are available.

    However I should caution that if you're a short arse soprano you may wish to defer your run for 2020 now .... :smiley:

    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/08/election-prediction-methods-models-2016-214148
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    PlatoSaid said:


    Maybe it's just me, but Smith is aping Corbyn's Leftism purely for the votes - he's totally inauthentic and the phoniest phoney. I don't believe a word he says - even Andy Burnham's less shifty.

    Vicious.....
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited August 2016
    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Good morning, everyone.

    Nice to see Peaty got his gold.

    I wonder how much that difference is due to the Conservatives being rather more efficient at leadership contests. Of course, May's better than a unilateralist friend of Hamas, but the margin might be narrower otherwise.

    His rib-cage is seriously impressive. I wonder what his lung capacity is?!
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,727
    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    While 'the incumbency effect' no doubt plays a part, along with 'honeymoon' and 'opponents couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery', I think its also fair to say May has made a decent fist of her first few weeks.

    A reshuffle which buried the Camaroons, quick trips to multiple European capitals to sort out the real negotiation ('heads of government to fix it, EU Commission to implement or get stuffed') and no unwarranted alarums or excitements.

    Imagine Prime Minister Leadsom instead......

    Leadsom might have made a better PM than May; we just don't know after CCHQ swiftboated her cv. Theresa May has made a good start but since parliament is not sitting and we've had no major crises, she has not really had much chance to stuff things up.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.
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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    PlatoSaid said:


    Maybe it's just me, but Smith is aping Corbyn's Leftism purely for the votes - he's totally inauthentic and the phoniest phoney. I don't believe a word he says - even Andy Burnham's less shifty.

    Vicious.....
    Fair, though. Burnham at least has some degree of public recognition, however small. How many people had heard of Owen Smith before this? In all honesty I hadn't.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    Some are forecasting a Labour rump of 150 seats in 2020. What of it? The hard Left are playing a long game. They had to wait thirty years to get their man installed, more by luck than judgement. Waiting another decade or fifteen years isn't an issue.

    Assume the Lib Dems don't experience a renaissance. Sans electoral reform, Labour simply have to wait. Being in opposition means you can promise a chicken in every pot - I could easily see membership growing even after electoral defeat in 2020.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Essexit said:

    PlatoSaid said:


    Maybe it's just me, but Smith is aping Corbyn's Leftism purely for the votes - he's totally inauthentic and the phoniest phoney. I don't believe a word he says - even Andy Burnham's less shifty.

    Vicious.....
    Fair, though. Burnham at least has some degree of public recognition, however small. How many people had heard of Owen Smith before this? In all honesty I hadn't.
    Liz Hurley avatar :+1:
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited August 2016
    John_M said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    Some are forecasting a Labour rump of 150 seats in 2020. What of it? The hard Left are playing a long game. They had to wait thirty years to get their man installed, more by luck than judgement. Waiting another decade or fifteen years isn't an issue.

    Assume the Lib Dems don't experience a renaissance. Sans electoral reform, Labour simply have to wait. Being in opposition means you can promise a chicken in every pot - I could easily see membership growing even after electoral defeat in 2020.
    I presume these will be fair trade, organic, free range chickens with honorary degrees to demonstrate their value to society - or ones made of tofu by lesbian sex-worker cooperatives?
  • Options
    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    I do wonder what the don't knows on that first data point are.
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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    If Corbyn actually wants to be PM, which is debatable, that must be his plan. But if so he assumes Labour have some kind of divine right to be the chief opposition party. In fact if he does end up PM it might be leading a coalition of Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, and perhaps a breakaway Blairite party. The LDs in particular have time to grow by the time the Tories stuff up.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    PlatoSaid said:

    Essexit said:

    PlatoSaid said:


    Maybe it's just me, but Smith is aping Corbyn's Leftism purely for the votes - he's totally inauthentic and the phoniest phoney. I don't believe a word he says - even Andy Burnham's less shifty.

    Vicious.....
    Fair, though. Burnham at least has some degree of public recognition, however small. How many people had heard of Owen Smith before this? In all honesty I hadn't.
    Liz Hurley avatar :+1:
    Queen Liz of Brexit :D
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    HYUFD said:

    The change in the polls might be down to incumbency in part but we should remember that the pre-change polls had Brown performing worse than Blair, and they proved prescient as to the longer-term outcome, once his honeymoon bounce dropped out of the figures.

    In this case, May was probably underrated during EURef - as were all Tory figures - due to the splits at the time in her party, which are now no longer visible. By contrast, Labour was then not so obviously divided as it now is. The current Tory unity and May's own political honeymoon will no doubt fade as the Brexit detail starts being debated but it's hard to see how Corbyn can ever recover any semblance of unity in Labour.

    Brown actually did better than Blair in the polls in the run up to the 2005 election
    That was probably an immediate post-Iraq effect. Between 2005-7, Brown polled worse in hypothetical match-ups than Blair.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    Essexit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    If Corbyn actually wants to be PM, which is debatable, that must be his plan. But if so he assumes Labour have some kind of divine right to be the chief opposition party. In fact if he does end up PM it might be leading a coalition of Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, and perhaps a breakaway Blairite party. The LDs in particular have time to grow by the time the Tories stuff up.
    The Blairites would go into coalition with the Tories before Corbyn if they formed their own party, same with Cleggite LDs
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Essexit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    If Corbyn actually wants to be PM, which is debatable, that must be his plan. But if so he assumes Labour have some kind of divine right to be the chief opposition party. In fact if he does end up PM it might be leading a coalition of Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, and perhaps a breakaway Blairite party. The LDs in particular have time to grow by the time the Tories stuff up.
    It took Brexiteers 40yrs to fulfil their ambitions. Why anyone doubts the determination of the hard-Left is beyond me. If you believe in something that firmly, you don't get bored of it.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    PlatoSaid said:

    John_M said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    Some are forecasting a Labour rump of 150 seats in 2020. What of it? The hard Left are playing a long game. They had to wait thirty years to get their man installed, more by luck than judgement. Waiting another decade or fifteen years isn't an issue.

    Assume the Lib Dems don't experience a renaissance. Sans electoral reform, Labour simply have to wait. Being in opposition means you can promise a chicken in every pot - I could easily see membership growing even after electoral defeat in 2020.
    I presume these will be a fair trade, organic, free range chickens with honorary degrees to demonstrate their value to society - or ones made of tofu by lesbian sex-worker cooperatives?
    Indeed :). As the Lib Dems found out, there's real value in NOT being in government. It allows you to seriously broaden your appeal. I think Corbyn's disciples are much keener on rallies, demos and hashtags than the tedious canvassing/leafleting activities that are the bedrock of successful election campaigns.

    Opposing is easy and rewards ones ego. Governing is hard and involves all kinds of morally impure compromises.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168

    HYUFD said:

    The change in the polls might be down to incumbency in part but we should remember that the pre-change polls had Brown performing worse than Blair, and they proved prescient as to the longer-term outcome, once his honeymoon bounce dropped out of the figures.

    In this case, May was probably underrated during EURef - as were all Tory figures - due to the splits at the time in her party, which are now no longer visible. By contrast, Labour was then not so obviously divided as it now is. The current Tory unity and May's own political honeymoon will no doubt fade as the Brexit detail starts being debated but it's hard to see how Corbyn can ever recover any semblance of unity in Labour.

    Brown actually did better than Blair in the polls in the run up to the 2005 election
    That was probably an immediate post-Iraq effect. Between 2005-7, Brown polled worse in hypothetical match-ups than Blair.
    It was largely in the context of Iraq, yes
  • Options

    While 'the incumbency effect' no doubt plays a part, along with 'honeymoon' and 'opponents couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery', I think its also fair to say May has made a decent fist of her first few weeks.

    A reshuffle which buried the Camaroons, quick trips to multiple European capitals to sort out the real negotiation ('heads of government to fix it, EU Commission to implement or get stuffed') and no unwarranted alarums or excitements.

    Imagine Prime Minister Leadsom instead......

    Leadsom might have made a better PM than May; we just don't know after CCHQ swiftboated her cv. Theresa May has made a good start but since parliament is not sitting and we've had no major crises, she has not really had much chance to stuff things up.
    I think the Times interview - and even more importantly her panicked reaction to it - were what did for her so rapidly. Seriously, I think we dodged a bullet there.

  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    John_M said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    Some are forecasting a Labour rump of 150 seats in 2020. What of it? The hard Left are playing a long game. They had to wait thirty years to get their man installed, more by luck than judgement. Waiting another decade or fifteen years isn't an issue.

    Assume the Lib Dems don't experience a renaissance. Sans electoral reform, Labour simply have to wait. Being in opposition means you can promise a chicken in every pot - I could easily see membership growing even after electoral defeat in 2020.
    Britain's system is too fluid to allow a far-left (or far-right) party to win without extraordinary external stimulus that simultaneously destroys credibility in all mainstream politicians, such as a huge and prolonged recession. If Labour remains Corbynite then something will fill the centre-left gap they leave.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    Mortimer said:

    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.

    It's a double-edged sword: how many of the public back more secondary moderns?

    The reality is that the original grammars were smaller than most secondary schools are these days. The better solution is to have grammar-like streams within secondary schools, which also makes moving from one stream to the other easier and avoids the perception problems that sec mods have.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    Importantly, 7 doesn't automatically follow from 6. An opposition only replaces a government when the government is unpopular and the opposition is popular.
  • Options
    I see on the news today that a man has leant out of the window on a Gatwick train to look at something and got decapitated by an oncoming train! Eeew. How can this be possible? All the trains I travel on only have little 'slot' windows at the top which open minimally (just enough to get a bit of breeze). I'm genuinely surprised the H&SE haven't banned 'decapitation friendly' windows ages ago. Que passa?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    HYUFD said:

    Well done to Adam Peaty too on getting Britain's first gold medal

    A good Uttoxeter lad, no doubt raised on a diet of Birds pork pies. ;)
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    HYUFD said:

    Essexit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    If Corbyn actually wants to be PM, which is debatable, that must be his plan. But if so he assumes Labour have some kind of divine right to be the chief opposition party. In fact if he does end up PM it might be leading a coalition of Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, and perhaps a breakaway Blairite party. The LDs in particular have time to grow by the time the Tories stuff up.
    The Blairites would go into coalition with the Tories before Corbyn if they formed their own party, same with Cleggite LDs
    Good point. The Tories would have to crash and burn hard for such a coalition to be impossible and for Corbynite Labour to get a place in government. Even then there's no guarantee it would be leading the government - Corbyn or a successor might have to settle for being deputy to Umunna or Farron.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Patrick said:

    I see on the news today that a man has leant out of the window on a Gatwick train to look at something and got decapitated by an oncoming train! Eeew. How can this be possible? All the trains I travel on only have little 'slot' windows at the top which open minimally (just enough to get a bit of breeze). I'm genuinely surprised the H&SE haven't banned 'decapitation friendly' windows ages ago. Que passa?

    According to Twitter, some trains have doors with opening windows in what used to be the guards compartment
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    John_M said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    John_M said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    snip

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    Some are forecasting a Labour rump of 150 seats in 2020. What of it? The hard Left are playing a long game. They had to wait thirty years to get their man installed, more by luck than judgement. Waiting another decade or fifteen years isn't an issue.

    Assume the Lib Dems don't experience a renaissance. Sans electoral reform, Labour simply have to wait. Being in opposition means you can promise a chicken in every pot - I could easily see membership growing even after electoral defeat in 2020.
    I presume these will be a fair trade, organic, free range chickens with honorary degrees to demonstrate their value to society - or ones made of tofu by lesbian sex-worker cooperatives?
    Indeed :). As the Lib Dems found out, there's real value in NOT being in government. It allows you to seriously broaden your appeal. I think Corbyn's disciples are much keener on rallies, demos and hashtags than the tedious canvassing/leafleting activities that are the bedrock of successful election campaigns.

    Opposing is easy and rewards ones ego. Governing is hard and involves all kinds of morally impure compromises.
    I hope someone with a much better grasp of the Bernie/Jezza mindset will pen an article about the phenomenon. There are so many similarities - the massive passions, the '68 revolutionary attitude, the cult status rallies, young women acting as cheerleaders and body guards for their hero...

    I can see why there's a certain appeal - but find myself taking Bernie a great deal more seriously.

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    Essexit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    If Corbyn actually wants to be PM, which is debatable, that must be his plan. But if so he assumes Labour have some kind of divine right to be the chief opposition party. In fact if he does end up PM it might be leading a coalition of Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, and perhaps a breakaway Blairite party. The LDs in particular have time to grow by the time the Tories stuff up.
    I really can't see Corbyn wanting to be PM; although having said that, I have no idea what his end-game is. One part seems to be to turn the party more to his world-view (i.e. leftwards) and to stop Blairites from taking it over once again. But beyond that?

    What I can say is that Corbyn's vision for the country does not appear to be one that I share.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    PlatoSaid said:

    Essexit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    If Corbyn actually wants to be PM, which is debatable, that must be his plan. But if so he assumes Labour have some kind of divine right to be the chief opposition party. In fact if he does end up PM it might be leading a coalition of Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, and perhaps a breakaway Blairite party. The LDs in particular have time to grow by the time the Tories stuff up.
    It took Brexiteers 40yrs to fulfil their ambitions. Why anyone doubts the determination of the hard-Left is beyond me. If you believe in something that firmly, you don't get bored of it.
    Fundamentally the votes were there for Brexit, the swing voters could be persuaded to back it. Some kind of hard left has existed in Britain for over a century without really getting anywhere . Corbyn 'leading' 232 opposition MPs may be their peak.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789

    While 'the incumbency effect' no doubt plays a part, along with 'honeymoon' and 'opponents couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery', I think its also fair to say May has made a decent fist of her first few weeks.

    A reshuffle which buried the Camaroons, quick trips to multiple European capitals to sort out the real negotiation ('heads of government to fix it, EU Commission to implement or get stuffed') and no unwarranted alarums or excitements.

    Imagine Prime Minister Leadsom instead......

    Leadsom might have made a better PM than May; we just don't know after CCHQ Fact Checked swiftboated her cv.
    Fixed it for you....
  • Options

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?

    Corbyn has no interest in becoming PM. He has no interest in Parliament. He believes in Labour as a social movement. Change will only come through a rising of the proletariat. Seriously.

  • Options
    Essexit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Essexit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    If Corbyn actually wants to be PM, which is debatable, that must be his plan. But if so he assumes Labour have some kind of divine right to be the chief opposition party. In fact if he does end up PM it might be leading a coalition of Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, and perhaps a breakaway Blairite party. The LDs in particular have time to grow by the time the Tories stuff up.
    It took Brexiteers 40yrs to fulfil their ambitions. Why anyone doubts the determination of the hard-Left is beyond me. If you believe in something that firmly, you don't get bored of it.
    Fundamentally the votes were there for Brexit, the swing voters could be persuaded to back it. Some kind of hard left has existed in Britain for over a century without really getting anywhere . Corbyn 'leading' 232 opposition MPs may be their peak.
    Agreed. The hard left will never win a majority in our 'small c' conservative country.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Jim Waterson
    There's now Corbyn ceramic plates, great if you want to eat your dinner off Jeremy. Amazing. https://t.co/7CkzARSGEf https://t.co/gUGOyoOYXp
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    Scott_P said:

    Patrick said:

    I see on the news today that a man has leant out of the window on a Gatwick train to look at something and got decapitated by an oncoming train! Eeew. How can this be possible? All the trains I travel on only have little 'slot' windows at the top which open minimally (just enough to get a bit of breeze). I'm genuinely surprised the H&SE haven't banned 'decapitation friendly' windows ages ago. Que passa?

    According to Twitter, some trains have doors with opening windows in what used to be the guards compartment
    'Decapitation', up to a point, Lord Copper

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/train-horror-person-decapitated-after-8584436

    Inter Railing round Europe many moons ago, when trains still had opening windows, I found it revealing the different attitudes of different countries to leading out of the train window. In Germany it was 'Verboten', in France 'Interdit' while the Italians simply observed it was 'Dangerous'.....
  • Options

    Scott_P said:

    Patrick said:

    I see on the news today that a man has leant out of the window on a Gatwick train to look at something and got decapitated by an oncoming train! Eeew. How can this be possible? All the trains I travel on only have little 'slot' windows at the top which open minimally (just enough to get a bit of breeze). I'm genuinely surprised the H&SE haven't banned 'decapitation friendly' windows ages ago. Que passa?

    According to Twitter, some trains have doors with opening windows in what used to be the guards compartment
    'Decapitation', up to a point, Lord Copper

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/train-horror-person-decapitated-after-8584436

    Inter Railing round Europe many moons ago, when trains still had opening windows, I found it revealing the different attitudes of different countries to leading out of the train window. In Germany it was 'Verboten', in France 'Interdit' while the Italians simply observed it was 'Dangerous'.....
    E molto pericoloso sporghese dela fenestra!
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?

    Corbyn has no interest in becoming PM. He has no interest in Parliament. He believes in Labour as a social movement. Change will only come through a rising of the proletariat. Seriously.

    I assume you joined Corbyn's Labour so you could take part in a rising against capitalist swine like yourself :-)
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,983
    Patrick said:

    Essexit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Essexit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    If Corbyn actually wants to be PM, which is debatable, that must be his plan. But if so he assumes Labour have some kind of divine right to be the chief opposition party. In fact if he does end up PM it might be leading a coalition of Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, and perhaps a breakaway Blairite party. The LDs in particular have time to grow by the time the Tories stuff up.
    It took Brexiteers 40yrs to fulfil their ambitions. Why anyone doubts the determination of the hard-Left is beyond me. If you believe in something that firmly, you don't get bored of it.
    Fundamentally the votes were there for Brexit, the swing voters could be persuaded to back it. Some kind of hard left has existed in Britain for over a century without really getting anywhere . Corbyn 'leading' 232 opposition MPs may be their peak.
    Agreed. The hard left will never win a majority in our 'small c' conservative country.

    It's not possible for the Hard Left to win in a country where 64% of adults (and probably 75% of voters) own property, but he no doubt hopes that a growing concentration of wealth in fewer hands will make this possible.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    And in the Guardian. Tory scum

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/08/secret-life-trade-union-employee-work-benefits-workers-rights

    "A typical day consists of making a pot of coffee, answering emails from members, (im)politely declining telephone sales calls, answering “I’ve no idea” when other staff ask me what they are meant to be doing, and browsing the internet while I wait for my manager to give me some work to complete. To say I’m under-used would be an understatement – this was written at my desk."
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    On topic: It seems to me general elections get won in the UK by the party whose leader seems most plausible, or perhaps least implausible, as PM. Miliband? Nah. Foot? Nah. IDS? Nah. All parties have a duty to nurture and offer up one or two people who look like they might have what it takes. No parties are swimming in serious contenders - but Labour, as the potential lefty winning party, seems to be utterly devoid of any talent or attraction right now. Corbyn? Nah. Smith? Nah. Chuka? FFS!
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068
    Patrick said:

    Scott_P said:

    Patrick said:

    I see on the news today that a man has leant out of the window on a Gatwick train to look at something and got decapitated by an oncoming train! Eeew. How can this be possible? All the trains I travel on only have little 'slot' windows at the top which open minimally (just enough to get a bit of breeze). I'm genuinely surprised the H&SE haven't banned 'decapitation friendly' windows ages ago. Que passa?

    According to Twitter, some trains have doors with opening windows in what used to be the guards compartment
    'Decapitation', up to a point, Lord Copper

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/train-horror-person-decapitated-after-8584436

    Inter Railing round Europe many moons ago, when trains still had opening windows, I found it revealing the different attitudes of different countries to leading out of the train window. In Germany it was 'Verboten', in France 'Interdit' while the Italians simply observed it was 'Dangerous'.....
    E molto pericoloso sporghese dela fenestra!
    It does say “very dangerous"
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,147

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    Importantly, 7 doesn't automatically follow from 6. An opposition only replaces a government when the government is unpopular and the opposition is popular.
    Disproven in 2010. Jez might need a coalition partner though. Perhaps UKIP? ;)
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068

    Mortimer said:

    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.

    It's a double-edged sword: how many of the public back more secondary moderns?

    The reality is that the original grammars were smaller than most secondary schools are these days. The better solution is to have grammar-like streams within secondary schools, which also makes moving from one stream to the other easier and avoids the perception problems that sec mods have.
    I went to a 50’s grammar school. Divisive and elitist.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    Mortimer said:

    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.

    It's a double-edged sword: how many of the public back more secondary moderns?

    The reality is that the original grammars were smaller than most secondary schools are these days. The better solution is to have grammar-like streams within secondary schools, which also makes moving from one stream to the other easier and avoids the perception problems that sec mods have.
    We already have thousands of secondary moderns, in the pejorative sense you mean. We call them 'comprehensives'.

    Polemic aside, though, new grammars opening does not have to mean a return to mandatory selection at 11 or even selection by exam. There are several areas of the country where stand-alone grammars coexist with a comp system. I would think the direction we will go if May is serious about this is that direction, i.e. to let new grammars appear within the existing structures.

    One very positive effect will be additional competition for the comprehensives for the brighter pupils. They will have to up their games in terms of setting, standards of behaviour etc.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @georgeeaton: Court ruling at 10:30am on whether Labour members who joined after January were lawfully excluded from leadership contest.

    The leadership contest has had more court cases than hustings...
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    George Eaton
    Court ruling at 10:30am on whether Labour members who joined after January were lawfully excluded from leadership contest.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    PlatoSaid said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    Parliament is merely a useful platform. They are so clearly correct that eventually there will be a spontaneous uprising by the proletariat led by the vanguard of Islington dinner party attendees. Then the Capitalist running dogs of the Fascist Hyenas will get their just desserts.

    Or something like that. Marx said so (not the State Capitalist variety, though).

    Maybe it's my timeline and friends - but there's a certain type of worthy Lefty that has no sense of humour. Everything is so achingly right-on and earnest. No room for levity or irreverent jokes. Fun sponges - the lot of them.
    I just don't get what Corbyn's game plan is. Here's my best guess.
    1. Become leader.
    2. Antagonise your moderate MPs until they rebel.
    3. Win the leadership election when challenged.
    4. (The Erdogan manoeuvre) - purge the disloyal elements via reselections.
    5. Accept any defections with equanimity.
    6. Wait for the Tories to come a cropper over Brexit, or to become unpopular for some other reason.
    7. Sweep to power with a selection of real socialist MPs.

    1 and 2 accomplished, 3 very likely to happen.
    4 and 5 under his control.
    6 and 7, well who knows?
    Importantly, 7 doesn't automatically follow from 6. An opposition only replaces a government when the government is unpopular and the opposition is popular.
    Disproven in 2010. Jez might need a coalition partner though. Perhaps UKIP? ;)
    A coalition deal wouldn't really qualify as "sweeping to power"...
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    PlatoSaid said:

    George Eaton
    Court ruling at 10:30am on whether Labour members who joined after January were lawfully excluded from leadership contest.

    I can feel the fraternity and camaraderie from here.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Chap shot dead in Northern Ireland:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37006557
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    Mortimer said:

    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.

    It's a double-edged sword: how many of the public back more secondary moderns?

    The reality is that the original grammars were smaller than most secondary schools are these days. The better solution is to have grammar-like streams within secondary schools, which also makes moving from one stream to the other easier and avoids the perception problems that sec mods have.
    I went to a 50’s grammar school. Divisive and elitist.
    I've no idea what benefit Grammar Schools bring that couldn't be achieved simply by improving existing schools. Certainly there seems to be no evidence beyond anecdota

    I'd also wonder whether May would have the votes to repeal the ban. There are a number of Tory back benchers who might vote no.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2014/12/the-case-against-grammar-schools.html

  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    Mortimer said:

    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.

    It's a double-edged sword: how many of the public back more secondary moderns?

    The reality is that the original grammars were smaller than most secondary schools are these days. The better solution is to have grammar-like streams within secondary schools, which also makes moving from one stream to the other easier and avoids the perception problems that sec mods have.
    I went to a 50’s grammar school. Divisive and elitist.
    What, like top universities are? Perhaps we should close them as well.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    Mortimer said:

    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.

    It's a double-edged sword: how many of the public back more secondary moderns?

    The reality is that the original grammars were smaller than most secondary schools are these days. The better solution is to have grammar-like streams within secondary schools, which also makes moving from one stream to the other easier and avoids the perception problems that sec mods have.
    I went to a 50’s grammar school. Divisive and elitist.
    Was that the school or the society it existed within? 1950s England, while quite socially mobile, was a horribly class-riven place.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I see the policy-based evidence brigade are out again touting the merits of grammar schools. Time for a refresher:

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Mortimer said:

    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.

    It's a double-edged sword: how many of the public back more secondary moderns?

    The reality is that the original grammars were smaller than most secondary schools are these days. The better solution is to have grammar-like streams within secondary schools, which also makes moving from one stream to the other easier and avoids the perception problems that sec mods have.
    I went to a 50’s grammar school. Divisive and elitist.
    So did I and I disagree that it was divise. I still had friends outside school on the council estate where I lived, in the scout troop, and at the rugger club who went to the secondary modern. Which school we went to was never an issue between us. As to being elitist, in as much as every boy was encouraged and expected to achieve a very high standard then yes it was and rightly so.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Mortimer said:

    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.

    It's a double-edged sword: how many of the public back more secondary moderns?

    The reality is that the original grammars were smaller than most secondary schools are these days. The better solution is to have grammar-like streams within secondary schools, which also makes moving from one stream to the other easier and avoids the perception problems that sec mods have.
    I went to a 50’s grammar school. Divisive and elitist.
    Was that the school or the society it existed within? 1950s England, while quite socially mobile, was a horribly class-riven place.
    As a poor WWC child, I went to a grammar school and it set me up for life. The exam question is: is it worth the opportunity cost for others?

    It's not clear to me how much demand there is for more grammar schools. However, by inclination I'm a fan of 'let a thousand flowers bloom'. Let there be no ban.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Mr. Herdson, aye. But arguing the 1950s lacked social cohesion may cut little ice given cultural enclaves that exist today.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    While 'the incumbency effect' no doubt plays a part, along with 'honeymoon' and 'opponents couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery', I think its also fair to say May has made a decent fist of her first few weeks.

    A reshuffle which buried the Camaroons, quick trips to multiple European capitals to sort out the real negotiation ('heads of government to fix it, EU Commission to implement or get stuffed') and no unwarranted alarums or excitements.

    Imagine Prime Minister Leadsom instead......

    Leadsom might have made a better PM than May; we just don't know after CCHQ Fact Checked swiftboated her cv.
    Fixed it for you....
    Well, the City boys reckoned her cv was accurate. Unfortunately for Leadsom, her claim to have worked in the City was blown up as "controlled billions" and this straw man was then knocked down. Swiftboating is a fair description.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    John_M said:

    Mortimer said:

    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.

    It's a double-edged sword: how many of the public back more secondary moderns?

    The reality is that the original grammars were smaller than most secondary schools are these days. The better solution is to have grammar-like streams within secondary schools, which also makes moving from one stream to the other easier and avoids the perception problems that sec mods have.
    I went to a 50’s grammar school. Divisive and elitist.
    Was that the school or the society it existed within? 1950s England, while quite socially mobile, was a horribly class-riven place.
    The exam question is: is it worth the opportunity cost for others?

    It has been extensively shown to not be, hence Cameron's jettisoning of it 10 years ago and his emphasis on Gove's educational reforms.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Mr. Llama, just a nudge about that e-mail I sent you a little while ago.

    Mr. M, it's mildly amusing that grammar schools are simultaneously unpopular as a policy yet over-subscribed as educational institutions.
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    SandraMSandraM Posts: 206

    Mortimer said:

    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.

    It's a double-edged sword: how many of the public back more secondary moderns?

    The reality is that the original grammars were smaller than most secondary schools are these days. The better solution is to have grammar-like streams within secondary schools, which also makes moving from one stream to the other easier and avoids the perception problems that sec mods have.
    I went to a 50’s grammar school. Divisive and elitist.
    So did I and I disagree that it was divise. I still had friends outside school on the council estate where I lived, in the scout troop, and at the rugger club who went to the secondary modern. Which school we went to was never an issue between us. As to being elitist, in as much as every boy was encouraged and expected to achieve a very high standard then yes it was and rightly so.
    I remember reading an obituary of Robert Peston's father who played a key part in driving the campaign against grammar schools. According to the obituary, he felt his grammar school was elitist as he had no friends outside the school and no friends outside his A stream class. I remember thinking: "Is that the school's fault?". I was in a grammar school A stream but I went to the local youth club and went to dances in the local church hall and I had several friends in other schools, both grammar and secondary modern.

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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    JonathanD said:

    John_M said:

    Mortimer said:

    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.

    It's a double-edged sword: how many of the public back more secondary moderns?

    The reality is that the original grammars were smaller than most secondary schools are these days. The better solution is to have grammar-like streams within secondary schools, which also makes moving from one stream to the other easier and avoids the perception problems that sec mods have.
    I went to a 50’s grammar school. Divisive and elitist.
    Was that the school or the society it existed within? 1950s England, while quite socially mobile, was a horribly class-riven place.
    The exam question is: is it worth the opportunity cost for others?

    It has been extensively shown to not be, hence Cameron's jettisoning of it 10 years ago and his emphasis on Gove's educational reforms.

    I haven't seen the data as I really have no skin in this game. I went to a state grammar. My late wife went to Cheltenham Ladies. We sent our kids to the local Haberdashers. I do think there needs to be more emphasis on early years + good parenting, but that's just my gut instinct.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,895
    Morning all :)

    On topic, well, yes. At the moment Mrs May can do no wrong - well, she's not doing very much at all it seems except from undoing some of Osborne's plans and flying a couple of kites. It seems householders are to be bribed with their own money to turn a blind eye to fracking in their neighbourhood - interesting.

    Perhaps we should try the same with planning to get more houses built - bribe all the residents in Cranleigh not to object to the proposal to build 10,000 new homes on the outskirts of their town. Might work...

    I'm puzzled by OGH's comments pertaining to Corbyn and the Referendum. At the time, a lot of people on here thought Corbyn was playing a pretty good hand overall. In truth, Labour had three options:

    a) campaign strongly for REMAIN
    b) campaign strongly for LEAVE
    c) do nothing

    As the Conservatives engaged in blue-on-blue insults, Corbyn stood to one side and let them get on with it. Perfectly reasonable politics - why help your opponent when he's beating himself up ? Advocating LEAVE might have been the smarter option albeit a win for REMAIN seemed on the cards up to and indeed after the polls closed.

    Europe has never resonated with Labour the way it does for the Conservatives, UKIP or the LDs. I suppose the risk of a LEAVE call was the antagonism of the Blairites and the risk of civil war (yes, well).

    The Referendum has solved nothing in the Conservative Party apart from costing it another leader - the ludicrous "Brexit means Brexit" from the Prime Minister is up there with some of the silliest things I've heard - and once the details of what kind of future relationship with the EU become clear, it may be, as others have suggested, that the Conservatives will once again look disunited and fragmented.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,602
    edited August 2016
    The most important political news of the year. It really is happening

    https://twitter.com/bbcstrictly/status/762548161290403840
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068

    Mortimer said:

    Not been around for a few days as one of my closest mates was getting married in Cambridge,

    Never been prouder to be a member of the Tory Party than when I woke up yesterday to news that the new Grammar schools ban may be repealed. I owe an awful lot to my local state grammar, and amongst my peer group are some very successful friends from very modest backgrounds that similarly attribute much of their success to being fortunate enough to grow up in Dorset - where there are still several very good grammars.

    It is also VERY good politics - I'm reading that between 7-8 out of 10 of the general public support them. Immediate response from Lib Dem leadership and Labour figures suggesting they'll use the Lords to block any such legislation probably means another 2-4% in the opinion polls for May's eminently sensible and centrist Tories.

    Policies that are good, popular and highlight the problems with the opposition parties are the bedrock of good government. Well done Ma'am; very well done.

    It's a double-edged sword: how many of the public back more secondary moderns?

    The reality is that the original grammars were smaller than most secondary schools are these days. The better solution is to have grammar-like streams within secondary schools, which also makes moving from one stream to the other easier and avoids the perception problems that sec mods have.
    I went to a 50’s grammar school. Divisive and elitist.
    Was that the school or the society it existed within? 1950s England, while quite socially mobile, was a horribly class-riven place.
    Fair question. Answer is probably both! And in the Scout Troop of which I was a member, for some reason one patrol was all grammar school, the rest were not.
    As far as sport was concerned anyone who belonged to a sports club which conflicted with sports offered by the school was in trouble. Late in my time several sixth formers were stripped of privileges for preferring to play soccer “outside", rather than rugby “within”. I can’t recall anyone who played for one of the local, as opposed to the school, cricket teams.
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