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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Hillary Clinton appears to be doing much better in polls co

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited August 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Hillary Clinton appears to be doing much better in polls conducted with live interviews

Above is the national WH2016 polling for the past ten days. Clinton’s ahead in all but notice the big difference between those surveys which were conducted by live interviewers over the phone and those which used the internet or automated phone calls to get responses.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    First!
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Second like Trump.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Third like Labour.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,147
    Fourth like Stein.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    Almost certainly there is an element of Shy Trump, but I doubt it will be enough for him to come back and win. Not sure about other candidates, but what's the lowest share of the vote obtained by a winning candidate since the war? I see Bill Clinton got 43% in 1992 - could Hillary win with a lower share this time around?
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    tlg86 said:

    Almost certainly there is an element of Shy Trump, but I doubt it will be enough for him to come back and win. Not sure about other candidates, but what's the lowest share of the vote obtained by a winning candidate since the war? I see Bill Clinton got 43% in 1992 - could Hillary win with a lower share this time around?

    Which third party candidate is realistically going to take so much?
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,727
    tlg86 said:

    Almost certainly there is an element of Shy Trump, but I doubt it will be enough for him to come back and win. Not sure about other candidates, but what's the lowest share of the vote obtained by a winning candidate since the war? I see Bill Clinton got 43% in 1992 - could Hillary win with a lower share this time around?

    "Could Trump turn this around? Maybe. But that means he'd actually have stop behaving like a jackass and start focusing on running for President. Something tells me this won't happen. "
    http://www.redstate.com/jaycaruso/2016/08/05/sabatos-crystal-ball-538-election-forecast-disaster-for-trump/
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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    tlg86 said:

    Almost certainly there is an element of Shy Trump, but I doubt it will be enough for him to come back and win. Not sure about other candidates, but what's the lowest share of the vote obtained by a winning candidate since the war? I see Bill Clinton got 43% in 1992 - could Hillary win with a lower share this time around?

    She won't win with a lower vote share but she might win with a lower share of the electorate.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,727
    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    Trump cheating his small supporters allegedly:
    "there is no option on Trump's website to cancel monthly contributions or remove your credit card information: Once you've set up a donation, you may only switch from one valid credit card to another."
    http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2016/08/05/donald-trump-really-ripping-small-donors/
    Jeremy Diamond ✔ @JDiamond1
    Help, I set up a recurring contribution to Trump's campaign & want to cancel it: (cc: @realDonaldTrump)
    2:48 AM - 4 Aug 2016 · Florida, USA, United States
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    Might I gently remind you of the Llama Hypothesis - the consensus on PB is usually wrong. For gambling purposes take the consensus on here and bet the other way.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    Might I gently remind you of the Llama Hypothesis - the consensus on PB is usually wrong. For gambling purposes take the consensus on here and bet the other way.
    But 'the other way' could be either a Trump win or a Hillary landslide - and either outcome is still a possibility.
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    FPT

    EPG said:

    Only just seen Alistair's article. He's right. Those who caused Brexit should pay. How about the sneering, overbearing, self-defining metropolitan elite, whose contempt for much of the country and its citizens prompted the rebellion against the proclaimed masters?

    You think LEAVE voters are irresponsible children who just react to stimulus and have no responsibility for their actions? It's a view.
    Not at all. But if you patronise people for long enough, denigrate them as xenophobes, racists, stupid and the rest, don't be surprised if they don't take kindly to it. Remain ran a dreadful campaign packed full of establishment scaremongering with nothing to inspire on the others side. It's true that the EU is hardly an ideal institution to generate inspiration but it is possible to campaign above the level of banana directive and it wasn't done. Consequently, the voters decided that they'd had enough and went for the one positive message in the game.
    Lovely little ding-dong here!

    Again I point to the TUC "Why Britain Voted Leave" polling.

    Observe slide 12: "Accusations of racism hurt the Remain campaign more than the Leave campaign".

    Were people concerned that "a leave vote would put me on the same side as racists?" 17% of all voters were very concerned, and 32% were either very or somewhat concerned. Among the referendum-swinging group of "soft" leavers (those who voted leave but had considered voting Remain), 15% were very concerned and 27% either very or somewhat concerned.

    Were people concerned that "the Remain campaign dismiss legitimate concerns about immigration?" Among all-voters, 30% were very concerned and 53% very or somewhat concerned about this. Among the vital soft leavers, this rose to 36% very concerned and 73% (!!) very or somewhat concerned.

    The stats are backing you on this one, David.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Michigan - EPIC/MRA

    Clinton 46 .. Trump 36

    http://www.epicmra.com/press/Stwd_Survey_Aug2016_Media_Freq.pdf
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,147
    HYUFD said:
    “And now Scotland wants to leave and Wales wants to leave. Then it will be Devon. God knows where it will end.”

    “The US is my town. America is my town.”

    A vote of confidence in Brexit Britain if ever I've heard it...
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    edited August 2016

    HYUFD said:
    “And now Scotland wants to leave and Wales wants to leave. Then it will be Devon. God knows where it will end.”

    “The US is my town. America is my town.”

    A vote of confidence in Brexit Britain if ever I've heard it...
    Wales of course voted to Leave but as Ringo has sold his Surrey estate now and lives in Beverly Hills full-time, as you say whatever happens he will not notice much difference
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    Might I gently remind you of the Llama Hypothesis - the consensus on PB is usually wrong. For gambling purposes take the consensus on here and bet the other way.
    But 'the other way' could be either a Trump win or a Hillary landslide - and either outcome is still a possibility.
    Full respect but you might want to check on the meaning of consensus, Mr. Herdson. That said perhaps I might need to refine the Llama Hypothesis to "The Majority of Opinion on PB is usually wrong". Don't know, I think the original is better.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited August 2016
    HYUFD said:
    After Brexit, Thomas the Tank Engine learned that he would no longer be working with his friends like Ivan the Polish Loco....The fat controller was very annoyed, as he could no longer employ all the Eastern European trains who did lots of runs the British engines didn't want to do, and were willing to do them for less money while living 14 to a shed.
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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    Might I gently remind you of the Llama Hypothesis - the consensus on PB is usually wrong. For gambling purposes take the consensus on here and bet the other way.
    Much appreciated. My betting in the nomination stage was on Bush (D'oh!) and Clinton (meh, tiny win).

    I would be delighted if I'm wrong about shy Trump supporters and he gets wiped out. Equally, the world has had quite enough of machine politicians, so I would like to see Clinton wiped out too. At the current odds I see no value in betting on either and that's unlikely to change.

    However, given how disliked they both are by myself and by the American electorate, the 250/1 punt on Gary Johnson was a head and heart decision.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    Might I gently remind you of the Llama Hypothesis - the consensus on PB is usually wrong. For gambling purposes take the consensus on here and bet the other way.
    But 'the other way' could be either a Trump win or a Hillary landslide - and either outcome is still a possibility.
    Full respect but you might want to check on the meaning of consensus, Mr. Herdson. That said perhaps I might need to refine the Llama Hypothesis to "The Majority of Opinion on PB is usually wrong". Don't know, I think the original is better.
    The consensus, to the extent that there is one, is a comfortable Hillary win of about 5-8% isn't it? So an outlier either way would still satisfy your hypothesis.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    edited August 2016

    HYUFD said:
    After Brexit, Thomas the Tank Engine learned that he would no longer be working with his friends like Ivan the Polish Loco....The fat controller was very annoyed, as he couldn't employ all the Eastern European trains who did lots of runs the British engines didn't want to do, and were willing to do them for less money and live 14 to a shed.
    Yes, that was largely how Ringo made his decision
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    Might I gently remind you of the Llama Hypothesis - the consensus on PB is usually wrong. For gambling purposes take the consensus on here and bet the other way.
    Worked well for me recently, certainly.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2016
    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
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    ISIS head of Europe terror attacks and Paris ‘mastermind’ defects group and flees Syria... taking Islamic State top secrets with him

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3725155/ISIS-s-French-Director-External-Operations-alleged-mastermind-Paris-attacks-thought-defected-Turkey.html
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited August 2016
    neighbour Parmjit Singh, a BBC radio DJ known as 'DJ Precious' on the Asian network, said he had known 'impressionable' Bulhan for seven years, adding: 'His mental health problems are a scapegoat.'

    The 36-year-old said: 'They said he had mental health issues but that was not the boy I knew.

    'The news of his mental illness is completely new, we never heard that. Honestly, I think his mental health problems are a scapegoat.'

    'I think peer pressure, hanging around with gangs. He wasn't working, he was hanging around with Somalian boys and I think they had possible links to serious ISIS people - not directly, but they see all this stuff and are inspired by it.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3725136/Russell-Square-knifeman-stabbed-American-tourist-death-devastated-husband-tried-kill-THREE-times-year.html

    Somebody didn't get the memo.
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    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    The whole fuss about these muslim soldiers parents rather reminds me of the fuss over Farages migration poster that there was such a hoo hah over before the referendum.

    Appals those who wont vote for you and makes those that will more likely to vote but less likely to admit to that intention.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    ISIS head of Europe terror attacks and Paris ‘mastermind’ defects group and flees Syria... taking Islamic State top secrets with him

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3725155/ISIS-s-French-Director-External-Operations-alleged-mastermind-Paris-attacks-thought-defected-Turkey.html

    Is there a betting market for which country will abduct him first ?
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,008



    Might I gently remind you of the Llama Hypothesis - the consensus on PB is usually wrong. For gambling purposes take the consensus on here and bet the other way.

    I'm not sure that's true. The PB consensus was right for the French Presidential (2011?), the London Mayoral 2016 and the AV Referendum 2011. It was dodgy on the London Mayoral (2011?), UK GE 2015, and EU Referendum 2016, although those elections were close. There are also cases of individuals making good predictions in advance, notably Rod Crosby and UK GE 2015 (who predicted it over six months prior and held that view against opposition).

    I think PB is good at predicting who will come first in an election if and only if the margin of victory is on the order of 10%. Whilst that's not a *great* record, it's better than random chance.

    It is also good at identifying points during an overnight election count when the outcome becomes predictable and the bookies are taking bets - eg the 1am identification of LEAVE as a winner for EU2016 and the 3/4am identification of a CON majority as a winner in UKGE2015. Unfortunately to profit from this requires large sums, an online betting account, and a secure & reliable overnight internet connection, none of which I have... :(
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,147
    Speedy said:

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.

    Or it's a signal that the current polling woe is overdone. Trump can rebound from this.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    viewcode said:



    Might I gently remind you of the Llama Hypothesis - the consensus on PB is usually wrong. For gambling purposes take the consensus on here and bet the other way.

    I'm not sure that's true. The PB consensus was right for the French Presidential (2011?), the London Mayoral 2016 and the AV Referendum 2011. It was dodgy on the London Mayoral (2011?), UK GE 2015, and EU Referendum 2016, although those elections were close. There are also cases of individuals making good predictions in advance, notably Rod Crosby and UK GE 2015 (who predicted it over six months prior and held that view against opposition).

    I think PB is good at predicting who will come first in an election if and only if the margin of victory is on the order of 10%. Whilst that's not a *great* record, it's better than random chance.

    It is also good at identifying points during an overnight election count when the outcome becomes predictable and the bookies are taking bets - eg the 1am identification of LEAVE as a winner for EU2016 and the 3/4am identification of a CON majority as a winner in UKGE2015. Unfortunately to profit from this requires large sums, an online betting account, and a secure & reliable overnight internet connection, none of which I have... :(
    You mean PB makes up it's opinion based on the polls, and then makes the calls based on results ?
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited August 2016

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    Might I gently remind you of the Llama Hypothesis - the consensus on PB is usually wrong. For gambling purposes take the consensus on here and bet the other way.
    But 'the other way' could be either a Trump win or a Hillary landslide - and either outcome is still a possibility.
    Full respect but you might want to check on the meaning of consensus, Mr. Herdson. That said perhaps I might need to refine the Llama Hypothesis to "The Majority of Opinion on PB is usually wrong". Don't know, I think the original is better.
    The consensus, to the extent that there is one, is a comfortable Hillary win of about 5-8% isn't it? So an outlier either way would still satisfy your hypothesis.
    Fair go, I need to do some more work. However, I still think my basic premise is sound. For example the consensus of opinion on here was that there would be no overall majority in 2015 and remain would win in the referendum. I have been on here since 2007 and have noticed the trend. It is not infallible, and perhaps it depends on what question one wants to ask but as a working hypothesis I think I am on the right track for a betting strategy.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    neighbour Parmjit Singh, a BBC radio DJ known as 'DJ Precious' on the Asian network, said he had known 'impressionable' Bulhan for seven years, adding: 'His mental health problems are a scapegoat.'

    The 36-year-old said: 'They said he had mental health issues but that was not the boy I knew.

    'The news of his mental illness is completely new, we never heard that. Honestly, I think his mental health problems are a scapegoat.'

    'I think peer pressure, hanging around with gangs. He wasn't working, he was hanging around with Somalian boys and I think they had possible links to serious ISIS people - not directly, but they see all this stuff and are inspired by it.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3725136/Russell-Square-knifeman-stabbed-American-tourist-death-devastated-husband-tried-kill-THREE-times-year.html

    Somebody didn't get the memo.

    And the BBC news website still won't name him - even though he has just been charged.

    It all stinks
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump probably rates better with white working class voters than Duke, Trump is not going to retire now especially with the debates to come
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Harry Enten of 538 looks at the prospect of Georgia as a swing state :

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-georgia-becoming-a-battleground-state/
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited August 2016

    neighbour Parmjit Singh, a BBC radio DJ known as 'DJ Precious' on the Asian network, said he had known 'impressionable' Bulhan for seven years, adding: 'His mental health problems are a scapegoat.'

    The 36-year-old said: 'They said he had mental health issues but that was not the boy I knew.

    'The news of his mental illness is completely new, we never heard that. Honestly, I think his mental health problems are a scapegoat.'

    'I think peer pressure, hanging around with gangs. He wasn't working, he was hanging around with Somalian boys and I think they had possible links to serious ISIS people - not directly, but they see all this stuff and are inspired by it.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3725136/Russell-Square-knifeman-stabbed-American-tourist-death-devastated-husband-tried-kill-THREE-times-year.html

    Somebody didn't get the memo.

    And the BBC news website still won't name him - even though he has just been charged.

    It all stinks
    Have they really gone 2 days without uttering his name? Awaiting some sort of nonsense explanation like why they don't call people terrorists or calling ISIS -> Daesh.

    They have named him now btw. Their internet machine was obviously broken for the past couple of days.
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    Speedy said:

    ISIS head of Europe terror attacks and Paris ‘mastermind’ defects group and flees Syria... taking Islamic State top secrets with him

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3725155/ISIS-s-French-Director-External-Operations-alleged-mastermind-Paris-attacks-thought-defected-Turkey.html

    Is there a betting market for which country will abduct him first ?
    What about a market for which countries spooks he was working for all along?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    JackW said:

    Harry Enten of 538 looks at the prospect of Georgia as a swing state :

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-georgia-becoming-a-battleground-state/

    Carter won Georgia in 1980 even when losing to Reagan by a landslide (albeit it was his home state) and he won it in 1976 as well, Clinton won it in 1992
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.

    Or it's a signal that the current polling woe is overdone. Trump can rebound from this.
    I don't know, even if he rebounds he is so deep under than even ex-KKK leaders are more popular than him with minorities.

    Look he's getting 1-2% of african americans and less than 10% of those under the age of 30 in the opinion polls, that's about what UKIP gets in Britain.

    But Trump is running in a 2 way presidential race, not a multiparty parliamentary race, with UKIP numbers he's dead.
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    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump probably rates better with white working class voters than Duke, Trump is not going to retire now especially with the debates to come
    Anymore than vote leave were going to throw the towel in after the Obamagasm.
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited August 2016
    From the previous thread SeanT said:
    "Has anyone else tried Amazon Fresh? It's incredible - they deliver food and booze, groceries and staples - to your door, within a specific HOUR, on the same day as you order.

    Their wine selection alone is better than any online supermarket. Prices are super-competitive.

    They're gonna slaughter the competition, starting with Ocado."

    Well, the old ways are good too. Ten quid will get you from the Bedford market as much fruit, vegetables & eggs as you can carry, in five or six bags.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,008

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    The whole fuss about these muslim soldiers parents rather reminds me of the fuss over Farages migration poster that there was such a hoo hah over before the referendum.

    Appals those who wont vote for you and makes those that will more likely to vote but less likely to admit to that intention.
    I think there is some truth in that *generally*, but in one specific instance you mention - ThatBloodyPoster - it may not be. If Clarke/Goodwin/Whitely are correct (see here) and LEAVE were winning all along, then the Jo Cox murder and TBP may have been one of the few things that did cause a swing to REMAIN in the last few days.

    However your wider point (that people are less willing to admit to a socially unacceptable opinion in a poll and this is a big problem with polls) is pretty uncontroversial at this point.
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    As likely that Trump has "supporters" that are happy to pretend to stick it to Hillary when it doesn't matter -- in a poll -- but decline to do so to a real person.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    HYUFD said:
    Anti-Frank will be ordering him to sent to to JackW's "dungeon" for 120 lashes...
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    The whole fuss about these muslim soldiers parents rather reminds me of the fuss over Farages migration poster that there was such a hoo hah over before the referendum.

    Appals those who wont vote for you and makes those that will more likely to vote but less likely to admit to that intention.
    You are seriously misjudging this one. Trying to view Trump trough the Brexit prism is a non starter.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump probably rates better with white working class voters than Duke, Trump is not going to retire now especially with the debates to come
    Anymore than vote leave were going to throw the towel in after the Obamagasm.
    Indeed, there is a long way to go yet, of course after Cameron's renegotiation Remain had a 15% lead, larger than any recent poll lead for Hillary. That was 4 months from polling, we are now 3 months away
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump probably rates better with white working class voters than Duke, Trump is not going to retire now especially with the debates to come
    Anymore than vote leave were going to throw the towel in after the Obamagasm.
    Apparently it was all over for Leave after Obama intervened.

    Back in the real world it pissed a whole bunch of key voters off.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,008
    Speedy said:

    You mean PB makes up it's opinion based on the polls, and then makes the calls based on results ?

    Yes.

    You have a gift for precis which I obviously lack... :(

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    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    I think it almost goes without saying that Shy Trumpers (the SBDs) will be a factor in this election and that Clinton's lead is definitely less than 5% at the moment. I think the swing voters are the 10% in the middle who are trying to work out if either of the two candidates is as bad as they're being painted. So I think positive advertising might be more effective than negative advertising, for a change.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    JackW said:

    Harry Enten of 538 looks at the prospect of Georgia as a swing state :

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-georgia-becoming-a-battleground-state/

    Reagan won 49 states with an 18% victory margin in 1984, losing only Minnesota which was the home state of Mondale.

    In a couple of polls Hillary is approaching that level (although that was Marist who has faulty methodology and I'm not using in my polling averages), so Georgia is definitely going for Hillary.

    But there is obviously a great chance that Trump continues to self-destruct all the way till election day, at that point Trump would probably win only W.Virginia and maybe Alabama.

    Trump might be hounded by republicans and humiliated through history if he goes on, it's not as if Hillary is a popular or competent person, it's the perception that Trump is insane that's killing him in the polls.
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    viewcode said:

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    The whole fuss about these muslim soldiers parents rather reminds me of the fuss over Farages migration poster that there was such a hoo hah over before the referendum.

    Appals those who wont vote for you and makes those that will more likely to vote but less likely to admit to that intention.
    I think there is some truth in that *generally*, but in one specific instance you mention - ThatBloodyPoster - it may not be. If Clarke/Goodwin/Whitely are correct (see here) and LEAVE were winning all along, then the Jo Cox murder and TBP may have been one of the few things that did cause a swing to REMAIN in the last few days.

    However your wider point (that people are less willing to admit to a socially unacceptable opinion in a poll and this is a big problem with polls) is pretty uncontroversial at this point.
    Yes the analogy is not exact - but this is the equivalent of Farage v Cherie Blair for UK president and in such a contest Farage would do far better than he would do in any general election.

    It would all come down to how many small c conservatives would then vote Farage with Gritted Teeth and how many left wingers and momentum types would vote Cherie with gritted teeth and how many would sit on their hands or vote for independent also rans.
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited August 2016
    Alistair said:

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    The whole fuss about these muslim soldiers parents rather reminds me of the fuss over Farages migration poster that there was such a hoo hah over before the referendum.

    Appals those who wont vote for you and makes those that will more likely to vote but less likely to admit to that intention.
    You are seriously misjudging this one. Trying to view Trump trough the Brexit prism is a non starter.
    I'm more viewing both Brexit and Trump through the pissed off C2DE prism.

    That said, Trump only has a chance because the Democrats have put someone unelectable against him.

    Equivalent of Labour making Cherie Blair the party leader.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,008
    MP_SE said:


    Apparently it was all over for Leave after Obama intervened.

    Back in the real world it pissed a whole bunch of key voters off.

    The "over for Leave" lasted from the speech itself to the first polls after the speech (36 hours?), which showed that the Obama bounce predicted by REMAIN was simply non-existent and that the opposite was in fact the case.

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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    MP_SE said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump probably rates better with white working class voters than Duke, Trump is not going to retire now especially with the debates to come
    Anymore than vote leave were going to throw the towel in after the Obamagasm.
    Apparently it was all over for Leave after Obama intervened.

    Back in the real world it pissed a whole bunch of key voters off.
    How sad is that?
    Why should the considered opinion of any single person (in this case one who is rather intelligent and sane) spur one to irrational behaviour? I expect it has to do with our sad class structure. Anyone who is confident of his own worth can listen and judge.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Alistair said:

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    The whole fuss about these muslim soldiers parents rather reminds me of the fuss over Farages migration poster that there was such a hoo hah over before the referendum.

    Appals those who wont vote for you and makes those that will more likely to vote but less likely to admit to that intention.
    You are seriously misjudging this one. Trying to view Trump trough the Brexit prism is a non starter.
    I should have thought that any attempt to judge US politics through a UK prism is daft.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Anti-Frank will be ordering him to sent to to JackW's "dungeon" for 120 lashes...
    Yes, followed by Remainer re-education
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump probably rates better with white working class voters than Duke, Trump is not going to retire now especially with the debates to come
    Anymore than vote leave were going to throw the towel in after the Obamagasm.
    To be fair, that intervention didn't shift the polls ten points to Remain. If anything, it nudged them the other way.

    But I agree, Trump will see it through to November.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2016
    Dadge said:

    I think it almost goes without saying that Shy Trumpers (the SBDs) will be a factor in this election and that Clinton's lead is definitely less than 5% at the moment. I think the swing voters are the 10% in the middle who are trying to work out if either of the two candidates is as bad as they're being painted. So I think positive advertising might be more effective than negative advertising, for a change.

    Trump doesn't do ads, zero TV ads to Hillary's 18000 so far.

    Hillary has learned over multiple elections to avoid the public and the press as much as possible, in order to avoid gaffes and control things by remote without exposing herself. Risky in a primary, as Jeb! found, but a sound GE strategy.

    Trump is going right into the Lions Den without any control and they are eating him alive.
    Trump has talked so much out of control in public we now question his sanity.
  • Options

    Alistair said:

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    The whole fuss about these muslim soldiers parents rather reminds me of the fuss over Farages migration poster that there was such a hoo hah over before the referendum.

    Appals those who wont vote for you and makes those that will more likely to vote but less likely to admit to that intention.
    You are seriously misjudging this one. Trying to view Trump trough the Brexit prism is a non starter.
    I should have thought that any attempt to judge US politics through a UK prism is daft.
    C2DEs being utterly pissed off with the establishment is not exactly unique to Britain.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2016
    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump probably rates better with white working class voters than Duke, Trump is not going to retire now especially with the debates to come
    That's precisely what I'm afraid of if I where on Trump's campaign.

    Since we are not sure Trump is a sane person there is a very high chance the debates are going to be a disaster.

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to defend himself from Hillary and the Moderators without making a fool of himself ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to articulate his policies in a popular way ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to attack Hillary effectively ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to not attack anyone but Hillary ?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    Alistair said:

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    The whole fuss about these muslim soldiers parents rather reminds me of the fuss over Farages migration poster that there was such a hoo hah over before the referendum.

    Appals those who wont vote for you and makes those that will more likely to vote but less likely to admit to that intention.
    You are seriously misjudging this one. Trying to view Trump trough the Brexit prism is a non starter.
    The similarity is that Trump represents something that (our) media class cannot comprehend the appeal of. I can only comment on this from afar but Trump's rise has been met with complete incredulity from the media over here. In some cases the media has gone out of it's way to misrepresent what Trump has actually said. An example would be Trump's comments along the lines of "I wonder if the Russians can find those 30,000 missing emails?" This was reported as Trump calling for the Russians to hack the Democrats when in actual fact he was scoring (successfully) a point about the email scandal.

    I don't necessarily condone this sort of politicking but the trick for the radical right politician is to lure your opponent into denouncing you as a liar or a racist or something else that would be unequivocally damaging if people they thought it were the case. Leave/Farage played this game very well in the EU vote. The £350m a week claim was a classic and the criticisms of the Remain side simply made them look as though they thought giving away £180m a week was absolutely fine. The poster was a riskier move, and perhaps it did lose leave votes (we'll never know, of course), but Farage knows the game. Whether or not him and his team went for an image that would goad the know-it alls into wetting themselves over the similarities to a Nazi poster I don't know. But once again, the criticisms of the Remain side could have given the impression that they didn't want to debate the substantive issue (the potential for refugees to get EU passports and therefore have a right to move to Britain). Instead, they did what comes naturally to them and branded Farage and the rest of the Leave side as racists.

    With the soldier's parents, however, I can't see how this helps Trump. Sure, there will be some who will defend Trump through anything, but I don't think he's done himself any favours and has the impression of not being in control. Clinton's line about Trump being riled by a Tweet is very clever. Maybe Trump can pull it back, but I think it's unlikely that he can win.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Alistair said:

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    The whole fuss about these muslim soldiers parents rather reminds me of the fuss over Farages migration poster that there was such a hoo hah over before the referendum.

    Appals those who wont vote for you and makes those that will more likely to vote but less likely to admit to that intention.
    You are seriously misjudging this one. Trying to view Trump trough the Brexit prism is a non starter.
    I should have thought that any attempt to judge US politics through a UK prism is daft.
    C2DEs being utterly pissed off with the establishment is not exactly unique to Britain.
    I agree, Sir, but there is a lot more to politics than that one item. So many people in the UK seem to think they understand US politics, possibly because we, sort of, share the same language but don't seem to appreciate the very real and vast cultural differences.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Alistair said:

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    The whole fuss about these muslim soldiers parents rather reminds me of the fuss over Farages migration poster that there was such a hoo hah over before the referendum.

    Appals those who wont vote for you and makes those that will more likely to vote but less likely to admit to that intention.
    You are seriously misjudging this one. Trying to view Trump trough the Brexit prism is a non starter.
    I should have thought that any attempt to judge US politics through a UK prism is daft.
    C2DEs being utterly pissed off with the establishment is not exactly unique to Britain.
    I agree, Sir, but there is a lot more to politics than that one item. So many people in the UK seem to think they understand US politics, possibly because we, sort of, share the same language but don't seem to appreciate the very real and vast cultural differences.
    Well said. The similarities are seductive, but wrong.
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    Alistair said:

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    The whole fuss about these muslim soldiers parents rather reminds me of the fuss over Farages migration poster that there was such a hoo hah over before the referendum.

    Appals those who wont vote for you and makes those that will more likely to vote but less likely to admit to that intention.
    You are seriously misjudging this one. Trying to view Trump trough the Brexit prism is a non starter.
    I should have thought that any attempt to judge US politics through a UK prism is daft.
    C2DEs being utterly pissed off with the establishment is not exactly unique to Britain.
    I agree, Sir, but there is a lot more to politics than that one item. So many people in the UK seem to think they understand US politics, possibly because we, sort of, share the same language but don't seem to appreciate the very real and vast cultural differences.
    The C2DE disaffection has got him this far (GOP candidate) which no one expected.

    Obviously there are a lot of differences in the US electoral make up (the big afro american vote for a start)

    But the democrats putting up the dreaded Hillary Clinton against him means to my mind it is his to lose. The tricky thing for him now is he is representing a party not just himself as he was in the primaries so there are plenty on his own side with more "liberal" views he now has to take account of and who will try and undermine him like the wets undermined IDS at every opportunity if their egos are not stroked.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    Trump cheating his small supporters allegedly:
    "there is no option on Trump's website to cancel monthly contributions or remove your credit card information: Once you've set up a donation, you may only switch from one valid credit card to another."
    http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2016/08/05/donald-trump-really-ripping-small-donors/
    Jeremy Diamond ✔ @JDiamond1
    Help, I set up a recurring contribution to Trump's campaign & want to cancel it: (cc: @realDonaldTrump)
    2:48 AM - 4 Aug 2016 · Florida, USA, United States
    Wow. That could be huge!
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    The key thing as to why I think Trump is finished, it's how easy it is to manipulate him into destroying himself, like in martial arts.

    Trump: "I wonder if the Russians can find those 30,000 missing emails?"

    The democrats turn it into: "Trump is in league with the Russians"

    That wasn't difficult to anticipate.

    Or this trick by the democrats:

    "Lets have sympathetic people attack Trump on TV, Trump may take the bait and attack them"

    And sure enough Trump took the bait.

    But why did Trump go on the offensive against people who endorsed him ?
    That's a mystery, perhaps he is insane.

    The democrats know how to provoke Trump into destroying himself.
    They had protesters with pocket constitutions in their hand at Trump rallies, conservatives love the constitution, so when Trump kicked them out it is seen as though Trump hates the constitution and conservatives.

    Trump needs to watch some Star Trek about how to handle the Borg, he needs to change his tactics and weaponry.
    Or he needs to learn martial arts, because the democrats use political martial arts against him.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    edited August 2016
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump probably rates better with white working class voters than Duke, Trump is not going to retire now especially with the debates to come
    That's precisely what I'm afraid of if I where on Trump's campaign.

    Since we are not sure Trump is a sane person there is a very high chance the debates are going to be a disaster.

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to defend himself from Hillary and the Moderators without making a fool of himself ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to articulate his policies in a popular way ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to attack Hillary effectively ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to not attack anyone but Hillary ?
    Trump won several debates in the primaries and is generally better on TV than Hillary even though she is on paper a better debater. The first debate can change a lot, in 2012 Romney went from about 6 points behind to a lead after winning big in debate 1, though he failed to consolidate it in later debates it cut Obama's final victory margin in half
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    nunu said:

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    Trump cheating his small supporters allegedly:
    "there is no option on Trump's website to cancel monthly contributions or remove your credit card information: Once you've set up a donation, you may only switch from one valid credit card to another."
    http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2016/08/05/donald-trump-really-ripping-small-donors/
    Jeremy Diamond ✔ @JDiamond1
    Help, I set up a recurring contribution to Trump's campaign & want to cancel it: (cc: @realDonaldTrump)
    2:48 AM - 4 Aug 2016 · Florida, USA, United States
    Wow. That could be huge!
    How do you think Trump got all that money from small contributions ?
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    viewcode said:



    Might I gently remind you of the Llama Hypothesis - the consensus on PB is usually wrong. For gambling purposes take the consensus on here and bet the other way.

    I'm not sure that's true. The PB consensus was right for the French Presidential (2011?), the London Mayoral 2016 and the AV Referendum 2011. It was dodgy on the London Mayoral (2011?), UK GE 2015, and EU Referendum 2016, although those elections were close. There are also cases of individuals making good predictions in advance, notably Rod Crosby and UK GE 2015 (who predicted it over six months prior and held that view against opposition).

    I think PB is good at predicting who will come first in an election if and only if the margin of victory is on the order of 10%. Whilst that's not a *great* record, it's better than random chance.

    It is also good at identifying points during an overnight election count when the outcome becomes predictable and the bookies are taking bets - eg the 1am identification of LEAVE as a winner for EU2016 and the 3/4am identification of a CON majority as a winner in UKGE2015. Unfortunately to profit from this requires large sums, an online betting account, and a secure & reliable overnight internet connection, none of which I have... :(
    Do u know if Rodcrosby made a prediction on who would win Trump or Clinton ?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,436
    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Essexit said:

    The level of smug sneering and hatred towards Trump supporters is similar to that faced by Leave supporters a couple of months ago. I'll pay attention to online polls - on that basis Clinton is ahead but not by that much. A big enough slip on her part could make this competitive.

    The whole fuss about these muslim soldiers parents rather reminds me of the fuss over Farages migration poster that there was such a hoo hah over before the referendum.

    Appals those who wont vote for you and makes those that will more likely to vote but less likely to admit to that intention.
    You are seriously misjudging this one. Trying to view Trump trough the Brexit prism is a non starter.
    The similarity is that Trump represents something that (our) media class cannot comprehend the appeal of. I can only comment on this from afar but Trump's rise has been met with complete incredulity from the media over here. In some cases the media has gone out of it's way to misrepresent what Trump has actually said. An example would be Trump's comments along the lines of "I wonder if the Russians can find those 30,000 missing emails?" This was reported as Trump calling for the Russians to hack the Democrats when in actual fact he was scoring (successfully) a point about the email scandal.

    snip

    With the soldier's parents, however, I can't see how this helps Trump. Sure, there will be some who will defend Trump through anything, but I don't think he's done himself any favours and has the impression of not being in control. Clinton's line about Trump being riled by a Tweet is very clever. Maybe Trump can pull it back, but I think it's unlikely that he can win.
    It seems to me that we are entering a crucial period in this election. Trump is in meltdown (see for example Peggy Noonan (http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-week-they-decided-he-was-crazy-1470354031)), and doesn't seem to have a clue what a mess he is making of it. A few more days of this kind of campaigning and it is all over.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,436
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump probably rates better with white working class voters than Duke, Trump is not going to retire now especially with the debates to come
    That's precisely what I'm afraid of if I where on Trump's campaign.

    Since we are not sure Trump is a sane person there is a very high chance the debates are going to be a disaster.

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to defend himself from Hillary and the Moderators without making a fool of himself ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to articulate his policies in a popular way ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to attack Hillary effectively ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to not attack anyone but Hillary ?
    Nobody knows, which is why they will be must-see TV.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Dadge said:

    I think it almost goes without saying that Shy Trumpers (the SBDs) will be a factor in this election and that Clinton's lead is definitely less than 5% at the moment. I think the swing voters are the 10% in the middle who are trying to work out if either of the two candidates is as bad as they're being painted. So I think positive advertising might be more effective than negative advertising, for a change.

    The polls in Brexit were not far off, indeed quite a few were narrowly for Leave towards the end. The wish to not believe polls that do not agree with ones predjuces is a strong one.

    In reality Hillary appears to be building a commanding lead and Trump imploding in chaos. A Hillary landslide is far more likely than a Trump win.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,147
    edited August 2016

    Dadge said:

    I think it almost goes without saying that Shy Trumpers (the SBDs) will be a factor in this election and that Clinton's lead is definitely less than 5% at the moment. I think the swing voters are the 10% in the middle who are trying to work out if either of the two candidates is as bad as they're being painted. So I think positive advertising might be more effective than negative advertising, for a change.

    The polls in Brexit were not far off, indeed quite a few were narrowly for Leave towards the end. The wish to not believe polls that do not agree with ones predjuces is a strong one.

    In reality Hillary appears to be building a commanding lead and Trump imploding in chaos. A Hillary landslide is far more likely than a Trump win.
    This has all happened in the last 10 days. Prior to that Trump had jumped back into the lead in the polling averages for only the second time and Hillary was being booed by her own party.

    It's far too early to write Trump off because of a few campaign gaffes.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2016
    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump probably rates better with white working class voters than Duke, Trump is not going to retire now especially with the debates to come
    That's precisely what I'm afraid of if I where on Trump's campaign.

    Since we are not sure Trump is a sane person there is a very high chance the debates are going to be a disaster.

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to defend himself from Hillary and the Moderators without making a fool of himself ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to articulate his policies in a popular way ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to attack Hillary effectively ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to not attack anyone but Hillary ?
    Trump won several debates in the primaries and is generally better on TV than Hillary even though she is on paper a better debater. The first debate can change a lot, in 2012 Romney went from about 6 points behind to a lead after winning big in debate 1, though he failed to consolidate it in later debates it cut Obama's final victory margin in half
    We are talking about a debate in front of a national audience, not a republican one.

    Trump was very good for a republican audience that distrusts the media and it's political leaders, and is hungry for red meat and an alpha male after 30 years of green salads and bland.

    But a national audience is the reverse, the average republican voter is a male age 60 living in a small town or village, the average american voter is female age 40 living in small cities.

    One is WWE, the other is The View:

    http://abc.go.com/shows/the-view

    Trump must win the audience of the above TV show.
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    FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Trump is still in with a chance. Surely if 2016 has taught us anything it's how stupid voters can be?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited August 2016
    nunu said:

    viewcode said:



    Might I gently remind you of the Llama Hypothesis - the consensus on PB is usually wrong. For gambling purposes take the consensus on here and bet the other way.

    I'm not sure that's true. The PB consensus was right for the French Presidential (2011?), the London Mayoral 2016 and the AV Referendum 2011. It was dodgy on the London Mayoral (2011?), UK GE 2015, and EU Referendum 2016, although those elections were close. There are also cases of individuals making good predictions in advance, notably Rod Crosby and UK GE 2015 (who predicted it over six months prior and held that view against opposition).

    I think PB is good at predicting who will come first in an election if and only if the margin of victory is on the order of 10%. Whilst that's not a *great* record, it's better than random chance.

    It is also good at identifying points during an overnight election count when the outcome becomes predictable and the bookies are taking bets - eg the 1am identification of LEAVE as a winner for EU2016 and the 3/4am identification of a CON majority as a winner in UKGE2015. Unfortunately to profit from this requires large sums, an online betting account, and a secure & reliable overnight internet connection, none of which I have... :(
    Do u know if Rodcrosby made a prediction on who would win Trump or Clinton ?
    Rod was mostly tweeting episodes of Trumps speeches with Wagnerian music, in a US version of The Triumph of the Will. I do not think that he made a formal prediction, but he seemed to think it possible. I am more inclined to believe JackWs demographic analysis.

    I also note that Hillary did particularly well in the Primaries in the Southern states that have been Republican for years, apart from under that other Clinton.

    The Black and Hispanic voters here are not going to vote Trump and the rednecks and hillbillies are not too keen on philandering Yankees. I suspect that the way that Hillary stands by her man plays well to this audience. Hillary will do well here and take some states.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    Scott_P said:
    Surely only if 'La reine le veult' :)
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Dadge said:

    I think it almost goes without saying that Shy Trumpers (the SBDs) will be a factor in this election and that Clinton's lead is definitely less than 5% at the moment. I think the swing voters are the 10% in the middle who are trying to work out if either of the two candidates is as bad as they're being painted. So I think positive advertising might be more effective than negative advertising, for a change.

    The polls in Brexit were not far off, indeed quite a few were narrowly for Leave towards the end. The wish to not believe polls that do not agree with ones predjuces is a strong one.

    In reality Hillary appears to be building a commanding lead and Trump imploding in chaos. A Hillary landslide is far more likely than a Trump win.
    This has all happened in the last 10 days. Prior to that Trump had jumped back into the lead in the polling averages for only the second time and Hillary was being booed by her own party.

    It's far too early to write Trump off because of a few campaign gaffes.
    There are 3 months to go and alsorts can happen, so it is not all over by any means. Hillary has an effective machine and is a grafter. Trump has at best lukewarm support, and many trying to distance themselves from his implosion.



  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Scott_P said:
    I suppose at least the French can say good-bye to Franglais.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,472

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump probably rates better with white working class voters than Duke, Trump is not going to retire now especially with the debates to come
    Anymore than vote leave were going to throw the towel in after the Obamagasm.
    Most of them did, however, concede defeat - shortly before they won.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    Fenman said:

    Trump is still in with a chance. Surely if 2016 has taught us anything it's how stupid voters can be?

    If 2016 has taught us anything, it's how the self-identified "Smart People" haven't got a fucking clue what's going on.....
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    2016 has also taught me that baby red squirrels are called kittens....
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,054
    Scott_P said:
    This sort of thing is to be expected. C'est la vie after all.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    edited August 2016
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump
    That's precisely what I'm afraid of if I where on Trump's campaign.

    Since we are

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to attack Hillary effectively ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to not attack anyone but Hillary ?
    Trump won several debates in the primaries anf
    We are talking about a debate in front of a national audience, not a republican one.

    Trump was very good for a republican audience that distrusts the media and it's political leaders, and is hungry for red meat and an alpha male after 30 years of green salads and bland.

    But a national audience is the reverse, the average republican voter is a male age 60 living in a small town or village, the average american voter is female age 40 living in small cities.

    One is WWE, the other is The View:

    http://abc.go.com/shows/the-view

    Trump must win the audience of the above TV show.
    People said the same about Reagan in 1980 and interestingly in 1980 Jimmy Carter got a bigger bounce than Reagan, much as Hillary has done this year too.
    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/convention_bounces.php

    It was only when Reagan convincingly won the first debate with great one liners like 'are you better off today than you were 4 years ago' that he took a clear poll lead. Indeed he moved from a 3 point deficit to a 3 point advantage after the debates. Trump, like Reagan, is also great at one liners and if he can portray himself as the strongman outsider America needs and tie Hillary to the establishment and more of the same anything is possible
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8YxFc_1b_0

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/110674/Presidential-Debates-Rarely-GameChangers.aspx
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    kle4 said:

    This sort of thing is to be expected. C'est la vie after all.

    Plus ca change...
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump probably rates better with white working class voters than Duke, Trump is not going to retire now especially with the debates to come
    Anymore than vote leave were going to throw the towel in after the Obamagasm.
    Most of them did, however, concede defeat - shortly before they won.
    I would love it if in many years from now Farage let it be known that he put a large sum of money on Leave shortly after his concession speech.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Dadge said:

    I think it almost goes without saying that Shy Trumpers (the SBDs) will be a factor in this election and that Clinton's lead is definitely less than 5% at the moment. I think the swing voters are the 10% in the middle who are trying to work out if either of the two candidates is as bad as they're being painted. So I think positive advertising might be more effective than negative advertising, for a change.

    The polls in Brexit were not far off, indeed quite a few were narrowly for Leave towards the end. The wish to not believe polls that do not agree with ones predjuces is a strong one.

    In reality Hillary appears to be building a commanding lead and Trump imploding in chaos. A Hillary landslide is far more likely than a Trump win.
    This has all happened in the last 10 days. Prior to that Trump had jumped back into the lead in the polling averages for only the second time and Hillary was being booed by her own party.

    It's far too early to write Trump off because of a few campaign gaffes.
    https://twitter.com/SopanDeb/status/761668298761089025
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    2016 has also taught me that baby red squirrels are called kittens....

    And that female capercaillies look like normal grouse.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,436
    weejonnie said:

    Scott_P said:
    I suppose at least the French can say good-bye to Franglais.
    You can't say that, it's le weekend.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    2016 has also taught me that baby red squirrels are called kittens....

    It is fairly easy to see red squirrels and their kittens on the Isle of Wight. The inbreds in the ghettos seem unable to catch and eat them. ;-)
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump
    That's precisely what I'm afraid of if I where on Trump's campaign.

    Since we are

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to attack Hillary effectively ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to not attack anyone but Hillary ?
    Trump won several debates in the primaries anf
    We are talking about a debate in front of a national audience, not a republican one.

    Trump was very good for a republican audience that distrusts the media and it's political leaders, and is hungry for red meat and an alpha male after 30 years of green salads and bland.

    But a national audience is the reverse, the average republican voter is a male age 60 living in a small town or village, the average american voter is female age 40 living in small cities.

    One is WWE, the other is The View:

    http://abc.go.com/shows/the-view

    Trump must win the audience of the above TV show.
    People said the same about Reagan in 1980 and interestingly in 1980 Jimmy Carter got a bigger bounce than Reagan, much as Hillary has done this year too.
    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/convention_bounces.php

    It was only when Reagan convincingly won the first debate with great one liners like 'are you better off today than you were 4 years ago' that he took a clear poll lead. Indeed he moved from a 3 point deficit to a 3 point advantage after the debates. Trump, like Reagan, is also great at one liners and if he can portray himself as the strongman outsider America needs and tie Hillary to the establishment and more of the same anything is possible
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8YxFc_1b_0

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/110674/Presidential-Debates-Rarely-GameChangers.aspx
    There was only one debate in 1980 between Reagan and Carter and that was at the end of the campaign.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    This sort of thing is to be expected. C'est la vie after all.
    Some top trolling!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    edited August 2016
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:
    that's a lot of shy trumpers.
    I don't think they are actually shy.

    But to give the idea how deep has Trump dug himself in, the ex-KKK leader David Duke who is running for republican Senator in Louisiana, is getting more african american votes than Trump:

    http://www.thestate.com/news/politics-government/article93913952.html

    "David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters"

    It's the signal Trump is waiting for his retirement, hopefully he will listen.
    Though Trump
    That's precisely what I'm afraid of if I where on Trump's campaign.

    Since we are

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to attack Hillary effectively ?

    Does Trump have the discipline and the brains to not attack anyone but Hillary ?
    Trump won several debates in the primaries anf
    We are talking about a debate in front of a national audience, not a republican one.

    Trump was very good for a republican audience that distrusts the media and it's political leaders, and is hungry
    http://abc.go.com/shows/the-view

    Trump must win the audience of the above TV show.
    People said the same about Reagan in 1980 and interestingly in 1980 Jimmy Carter got a bigger bounce than Reagan, much as Hillary has done this year too.
    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/convention_bounces.php

    It was only when Reagan convincingly won the first debate with great one liners like 'are you better off today than you were 4 years ago' that he took a clear poll lead. Indeed he moved from a 3 point deficit to a 3 point advantage after the debates. Trump, like Reagan, is also great at one liners and if he can portray himself as the strongman outsider America needs and tie Hillary to the establishment and more of the same anything is possible
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8YxFc_1b_0

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/110674/Presidential-Debates-Rarely-GameChangers.aspx
    There was only one debate in 1980 between Reagan and Carter and that was at the end of the campaign.
    He debated with Anderson too and ate into his voteshare (perhaps Trump can do the same with Johnson). It was the debates which won it for Reagan that year
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    2016 has also taught me that baby red squirrels are called kittens....

    It is fairly easy to see red squirrels and their kittens on the Isle of Wight. The inbreds in the ghettos seem unable to catch and eat them. ;-)
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/children/11723308/First-cousin-marriages-in-Pakistani-communities-leading-to-appalling-disabilities-among-children.html
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    edited August 2016
    Scott_P said:
    Probably started by a sore loser remainer.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Probably started by a sore loser remainer.
    It's *obviously* a joke. Come on guys, get with it.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    Does Jezza still have FFJ camped on his roof? :smiley:
This discussion has been closed.