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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Today’s 2nd terrible poll for Corbyn: YouGov ratings from i

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,960

    Betting related post

    Leaked Emails Appear To Show Steven Woolfe Is Ineligible To Stand In Ukip Leadership Race

    Rules state Ukip leadership hopefuls need to be a member for at least two years.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/steven-woolfe-ukip_uk_5797b95ee4b02508de478dc7?hkg1pmuq33libpgb9

    Oh god that would be a hilarious reason to be ineligible.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,502

    Betting related post

    Leaked Emails Appear To Show Steven Woolfe Is Ineligible To Stand In Ukip Leadership Race

    Rules state Ukip leadership hopefuls need to be a member for at least two years.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/steven-woolfe-ukip_uk_5797b95ee4b02508de478dc7?hkg1pmuq33libpgb9

    My understanding is that only Nigel Farage is eligible to be UKIP leader.
  • justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue, and for many voters that is still very much live. Owen Smith hinted at this in his Newsnight interview (even though he had no solution to offer either).

    If any of them could get their act together to propose something - ANYTHING - other than the status quo for the Union, then voters might consider that they were worth listening to.

    (Of course I'm old enough to remember that we were assured Corbyn would 'win back Scotland' when he was elected last September. How we laughed.)

    What more do you expect Labour to offer Scotland in constitutional terms? Independence perhaps? If they believed in that there would be nothing to differentiate them from the SNP. Moreover the people of Scotland have already spoken on that issue.
    Cracking, I'm sure voters will be rushing on 'home' to Labour then. As everything's sorted.
    What would you suggest?
    That's Labour's problem, not mine.

    They possibly need to develop a Union or bust stance and stick to it as one, instead of dipping their toes in the water of Indyref2/briefing against either other and then running away again. It gives the impression that they want to switch horses, but are being run from London, which is the thing that weakens them most here.

    They seemed to start some exploration of full federalism, but that has gone nowhere.

    But as has already been outlined in full here, they're in a position where they're scrapping over 50% Unionist votes with Tories/LDs and saying nothing different to give people a reason to think they have any fresh thinking.
    Over time I expect the 50% Unionist vote to drift back to more like 60%.
    No one can know that - and who knows how long Scottish Labour can hold themselves together? They are in an even worse state than Labour at a UK level, internally. They have few resources to fight the council elections in May, where they are likely to take another drubbing, followed by the left attempting to oust Dugdale. They aren't even anywhere near the bottom in Scotland yet.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,546
    kle4 said:

    Betting related post

    Leaked Emails Appear To Show Steven Woolfe Is Ineligible To Stand In Ukip Leadership Race

    Rules state Ukip leadership hopefuls need to be a member for at least two years.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/steven-woolfe-ukip_uk_5797b95ee4b02508de478dc7?hkg1pmuq33libpgb9

    Oh god that would be a hilarious reason to be ineligible.
    It'll be like Obama and his birth certificate all over again
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,502
    DavidL said:

    I am pretty sure I made these points on the last thread. The further point I made was such results are completely inconsistent with Corbyn winning in Scotland. How far out of London do the Corbynistas reach? Luton?

    Not even Dagenham.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    rcs1000 said:

    My understanding is that only Nigel Farage is eligible to be UKIP leader.

    Chortle .. :smile:
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Conflict News
    SUMMARY: What we know about the execution of a priest in Normandy, France today. https://t.co/ylbf8uV8dU
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    alex. said:

    Scott_P said:

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue

    ...or indeed any other issue of substance.
    Well quite - he's been leader for a year and has he actually produced much of a policy on anything? Anything which could even I suppose be classified as a policy (eg. rail renationalisation) is really more of a "principle" than a "policy" unless there is some work showing how he actually intends to implement it.
    Richard Murphy provides a shambolic inside expose of Corbyn's policy making here:

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/07/17/the-rise-and-fall-of-corbyns-economics/

    Concluding: "If Jeremy and John had known what they were doing these impasses would not have happened. The impression left is that they have created a movement that hates what’s happening in the world and can get really angry about it, but then has not a clue what to do about it."


    That's pretty damning. Has it got wider coverage anywhere?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,960
    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    I am pretty sure I made these points on the last thread. The further point I made was such results are completely inconsistent with Corbyn winning in Scotland. How far out of London do the Corbynistas reach? Luton?

    Not even Dagenham.
    Damn - I was going to say they were still in power in Brighton and Hove, albeit they are called Greens there, but turns out the Greens are not the largest party in the People's Republic anymore.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,380
    edited July 2016
    nunu said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Plenty of people still buy Fiats and Ferraris and Lamborghinis
    Not enough, unemployment is 12%!
    Most of that is in the South which has historically always been the poorest area of the country. Northern Italy is much wealthier and Bolzano in the Tyrol is amongst the top 20 wealthiest regions in Europe
    http://www.errin.eu/sites/default/files/1-21032013-AP-EN.PDF
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited July 2016
    kle4 said:

    Betting related post

    Leaked Emails Appear To Show Steven Woolfe Is Ineligible To Stand In Ukip Leadership Race

    Rules state Ukip leadership hopefuls need to be a member for at least two years.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/steven-woolfe-ukip_uk_5797b95ee4b02508de478dc7?hkg1pmuq33libpgb9

    Oh god that would be a hilarious reason to be ineligible.
    A UKIP MEP who thinks membership fees are only for the little people.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,546
    Theresa May is under growing pressure from Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to pull out of the EU customs union, a move required to facilitate post-Brexit bilateral trade deals but which would impose costs on exporters and could strain Anglo-Irish relations.

    The issue is looming as a battleground in discussions over whether the UK will pursue a “hard” or “soft” Brexit. It will have to be resolved before London triggers Article 50, the starting gun for withdrawal negotiations with the EU.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87614da-533a-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60.html#axzz4FXxzjS4s
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,108
    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
    We covered the Italian north - south divide in O Level geography back in 1983. No change in a third of a century. I got a B, by the way.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited July 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
    Isn't that because of a fear of large earthquakes in the south, insurance costs must be high if it is covered (act of god), but yes they also have had bad government as well, but its not like the U.K doesn't have huge differences in regional GDP, we badly need to balance our economy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,380

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dem Convention highlights on BBC Parliament now, Elizabeth Warren (introduced by Congressman Joseph P Kennedy, Bobby's grandson) giving quite a good, fluid performance if economically illiterate. Bill Clinton looking a bit moody, though he did applaud Michelle Obama earlier

    I'm infuriated by decent speakers (e.g. Warren) being heckled by BernieBro kidults. What a bunch of pillocks.
    There is a bit of Berniebot background noise but Warren's message, anti Wall Street and tax breaks for millionaires, anti division of Ohio workers and Hispanic workers etc was pretty similar to what Sanders was saying
    They seemed to be way too near the mikes at the start of Elizabeth Warren's speech, but were hushed by more sensible types as she got going.
    Indeed, Bernie now speaking on BBC Parliament who was clearly who they were really waiting for
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,960

    Theresa May is under growing pressure from Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to pull out of the EU customs union, a move required to facilitate post-Brexit bilateral trade deals but which would impose costs on exporters and could strain Anglo-Irish relations.

    The issue is looming as a battleground in discussions over whether the UK will pursue a “hard” or “soft” Brexit. It will have to be resolved before London triggers Article 50, the starting gun for withdrawal negotiations with the EU.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87614da-533a-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60.html#axzz4FXxzjS4s

    I'm a little surprised May would not have come to a conclusion about what to go for and that Fox would have insisted upon knowing that prior to accepting his position.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,191
    edited July 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    Conflict News
    SUMMARY: What we know about the execution of a priest in Normandy, France today. https://t.co/ylbf8uV8dU

    From that summary / brother connection, the second attacker likely to have been well known to the authorities. I wonder why they are only naming one of them publicly? I am presuming there is a particular reason in this case.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,108
    nunu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
    Isn't that because of a fear of large earthquakes in the south, insurance costs must be high if it is covered (act of god), but yes they also have had bad government as well, but its not like the U.K doesn't have huge differences in regional GDP, we badly need to balance our economy.
    There are other 'insurance' costs to factor in in the south too...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,546
    kle4 said:

    Theresa May is under growing pressure from Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to pull out of the EU customs union, a move required to facilitate post-Brexit bilateral trade deals but which would impose costs on exporters and could strain Anglo-Irish relations.

    The issue is looming as a battleground in discussions over whether the UK will pursue a “hard” or “soft” Brexit. It will have to be resolved before London triggers Article 50, the starting gun for withdrawal negotiations with the EU.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87614da-533a-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60.html#axzz4FXxzjS4s

    I'm a little surprised May would not have come to a conclusion about what to go for and that Fox would have insisted upon knowing that prior to accepting his position.
    I reckon that's why she made Boris Foreign Secretary, he's a soft Brexiteer
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    kle4 said:

    Theresa May is under growing pressure from Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to pull out of the EU customs union, a move required to facilitate post-Brexit bilateral trade deals but which would impose costs on exporters and could strain Anglo-Irish relations.

    The issue is looming as a battleground in discussions over whether the UK will pursue a “hard” or “soft” Brexit. It will have to be resolved before London triggers Article 50, the starting gun for withdrawal negotiations with the EU.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87614da-533a-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60.html#axzz4FXxzjS4s

    I'm a little surprised May would not have come to a conclusion about what to go for and that Fox would have insisted upon knowing that prior to accepting his position.
    I reckon that's why she made Boris Foreign Secretary, he's a soft Brexiteer
    Fox is all bluff and bluster, let him make a stand and resign again... pah..
  • PlatoSaid said:

    Conflict News
    SUMMARY: What we know about the execution of a priest in Normandy, France today. https://t.co/ylbf8uV8dU

    You begin to see the logic of Israels policy of dynamiting the family home of anyone who does this. (even if they lived at their parents or grandparents home)

    In a European context confiscation of it without compensation would I guess be the equivalent.

    Things like this as well as large scale internment and deportations could soon be on the agenda alas (as parties scramble to keep power and not lose it to the sort of people who round ten of the perpetrators relatives up and execute them pour l'encouragement des autres).

    In the end the first job of a government is to keep the peace. If they cannot do that then the people will vote in nasty violent people who will keep it with an iron fist. If there is not civil peace then nothing else matters significantly to people until there is again.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,960

    kle4 said:

    Theresa May is under growing pressure from Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to pull out of the EU customs union, a move required to facilitate post-Brexit bilateral trade deals but which would impose costs on exporters and could strain Anglo-Irish relations.

    The issue is looming as a battleground in discussions over whether the UK will pursue a “hard” or “soft” Brexit. It will have to be resolved before London triggers Article 50, the starting gun for withdrawal negotiations with the EU.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87614da-533a-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60.html#axzz4FXxzjS4s

    I'm a little surprised May would not have come to a conclusion about what to go for and that Fox would have insisted upon knowing that prior to accepting his position.
    I reckon that's why she made Boris Foreign Secretary, he's a soft Brexiteer
    What about Davis as Brexit Secretary, isn't he a Hard Brexiteer?

    Conspiracy theory - the Hard Brexiteers will get frustrated and threaten to flounce out, May will have Boris lead the argument against them and subsume Brexit department into the Foreign Office once she beats the Hard Brexiteers
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,502
    nunu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
    Isn't that because of a fear of large earthquakes in the south, insurance costs must be high if it is covered (act of god), but yes they also have had bad government as well, but its not like the U.K doesn't have huge differences in regional GDP, we badly need to balance our economy.
    It's not because of earthquakes! Otherwise Los Angeles and San Francisco would be poor, and Alabama would be rich.

    It's poor government, and an unwillingness to confront local criminal movements. Simply, it's a terrible place to do business.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,191

    PlatoSaid said:

    Conflict News
    SUMMARY: What we know about the execution of a priest in Normandy, France today. https://t.co/ylbf8uV8dU

    You begin to see the logic of Israels policy of dynamiting the family home of anyone who does this. (even if they lived at their parents or grandparents home)

    In a European context confiscation of it without compensation would I guess be the equivalent.

    Things like this as well as large scale internment and deportations could soon be on the agenda alas (as parties scramble to keep power and not lose it to the sort of people who round ten of the perpetrators relatives up and execute them pour l'encouragement des autres).

    In the end the first job of a government is to keep the peace. If they cannot do that then the people will vote in nasty violent people who will keep it with an iron fist. If there is not civil peace then nothing else matters significantly to people until there is again.
    I never really understood that Israeli policy. I would imagine in Europe you would get groups buying the family replacements.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    PlatoSaid said:

    Conflict News
    SUMMARY: What we know about the execution of a priest in Normandy, France today. https://t.co/ylbf8uV8dU

    From that summary / brother connection, the second attacker likely to have been well known to the authorities. I wonder why they are only naming one of them publicly? I am presuming there is a particular reason in this case.
    Conflict News
    GERMANY: IS claim that Ansbach bomber joined ISI (Islamic State of Iraq) before 2011, then returned to Aleppo in #Syria. - @jenanmoussa
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,546
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Theresa May is under growing pressure from Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to pull out of the EU customs union, a move required to facilitate post-Brexit bilateral trade deals but which would impose costs on exporters and could strain Anglo-Irish relations.

    The issue is looming as a battleground in discussions over whether the UK will pursue a “hard” or “soft” Brexit. It will have to be resolved before London triggers Article 50, the starting gun for withdrawal negotiations with the EU.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87614da-533a-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60.html#axzz4FXxzjS4s

    I'm a little surprised May would not have come to a conclusion about what to go for and that Fox would have insisted upon knowing that prior to accepting his position.
    I reckon that's why she made Boris Foreign Secretary, he's a soft Brexiteer
    What about Davis as Brexit Secretary, isn't he a Hard Brexiteer?

    Conspiracy theory - the Hard Brexiteers will get frustrated and threaten to flounce out, May will have Boris lead the argument against them and subsume Brexit department into the Foreign Office once she beats the Hard Brexiteers
    Yup. I suspect the fault line for the Tory Party will be on those lines.

    I suspect the framing will be good for the economy vs Freedom!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,806
    Yet another PROGRESS propaganda thread from the Crypto-Tories of Political Betting :lol:
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited July 2016
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,191
    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Conflict News
    SUMMARY: What we know about the execution of a priest in Normandy, France today. https://t.co/ylbf8uV8dU

    From that summary / brother connection, the second attacker likely to have been well known to the authorities. I wonder why they are only naming one of them publicly? I am presuming there is a particular reason in this case.
    Conflict News
    GERMANY: IS claim that Ansbach bomber joined ISI (Islamic State of Iraq) before 2011, then returned to Aleppo in #Syria. - @jenanmoussa
    I would think we have to take that with a huge pinch of salt as it is coming from IS.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @reactionlife: Theresa May's Tories take 16 point poll lead in latest conspiracy against Corbyn https://t.co/YROXnCLiWD
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stay
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (S
    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.

    Isn't that because of a fear of large earthquakes in the south, insurance costs must be high if it is covered (act of god), but yes they also have had bad government as well, but its not like the U.K doesn't have huge differences in regional GDP, we badly need to balance our economy.
    It's not because of earthquakes! Otherwise Los Angeles and San Francisco would be poor, and Alabama would be rich.

    It's poor government, and an unwillingness to confront local criminal movements. Simply, it's a terrible place to do business.
    OK yeah that was a bit dumb.....
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Theresa May is under growing pressure from Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to pull out of the EU customs union, a move required to facilitate post-Brexit bilateral trade deals but which would impose costs on exporters and could strain Anglo-Irish relations.

    The issue is looming as a battleground in discussions over whether the UK will pursue a “hard” or “soft” Brexit. It will have to be resolved before London triggers Article 50, the starting gun for withdrawal negotiations with the EU.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87614da-533a-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60.html#axzz4FXxzjS4s

    I'm a little surprised May would not have come to a conclusion about what to go for and that Fox would have insisted upon knowing that prior to accepting his position.
    I reckon that's why she made Boris Foreign Secretary, he's a soft Brexiteer
    What about Davis as Brexit Secretary, isn't he a Hard Brexiteer?

    Conspiracy theory - the Hard Brexiteers will get frustrated and threaten to flounce out, May will have Boris lead the argument against them and subsume Brexit department into the Foreign Office once she beats the Hard Brexiteers
    Occam's razor please. She put the soft Brexiteer in the FCO Gladhanding department and put the hard Brexiteer in the EU facing position. This implies that Mrs May is a hard Brexiteer herself. Perhaps 'Brexit means Brexit' is meant to be taken at face value.
  • OT, but Bernie Sanders has a most excellent accent, which I will regret not hearing more of during the forthcoming campaign.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,989
    rcs1000 said:

    It's not because of earthquakes! Otherwise Los Angeles and San Francisco would be poor, and Alabama would be rich.

    It's poor government, and an unwillingness to confront local criminal movements. Simply, it's a terrible place to do business.

    It's debatable whether California has good government relative to other states.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
    We covered the Italian north - south divide in O Level geography back in 1983. No change in a third of a century. I got a B, by the way.
    No change in a millenium perhaps! As an Italian friend from Bari said to me "Milan is a southern suburb of Paris, Naples a northern suburb of Cairo"
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,191
    edited July 2016
    As understand it California is rather hand tied in what it can do because things like changes to main tax raising avenues all require a public referendum, which they know they will never pass.

    Image if the CoE here couldn't alter VAT or income tax or any thresholds in the budget without a public vote each year.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,936

    Yet another PROGRESS propaganda thread from the Crypto-Tories of Political Betting :lol:

    Final Pre coup Poll Tory lead 0%

    Latest Post Coup Poll Tory lead 16%

    Thats PROGRESS
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,502



    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
    We covered the Italian north - south divide in O Level geography back in 1983. No change in a third of a century. I got a B, by the way.
    No change in a millenium perhaps! As an Italian friend from Bari said to me "Milan is a southern suburb of Paris, Naples a northern suburb of Cairo"
    The old gag is that Italy is Southern Germany plus Northern Africa.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,960
    John_M said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Theresa May is under growing pressure from Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to pull out of the EU customs union, a move required to facilitate post-Brexit bilateral trade deals but which would impose costs on exporters and could strain Anglo-Irish relations.

    The issue is looming as a battleground in discussions over whether the UK will pursue a “hard” or “soft” Brexit. It will have to be resolved before London triggers Article 50, the starting gun for withdrawal negotiations with the EU.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87614da-533a-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60.html#axzz4FXxzjS4s

    I'm a little surprised May would not have come to a conclusion about what to go for and that Fox would have insisted upon knowing that prior to accepting his position.
    I reckon that's why she made Boris Foreign Secretary, he's a soft Brexiteer
    What about Davis as Brexit Secretary, isn't he a Hard Brexiteer?

    Conspiracy theory - the Hard Brexiteers will get frustrated and threaten to flounce out, May will have Boris lead the argument against them and subsume Brexit department into the Foreign Office once she beats the Hard Brexiteers
    Occam's razor please. She put the soft Brexiteer in the FCO Gladhanding department and put the hard Brexiteer in the EU facing position. This implies that Mrs May is a hard Brexiteer herself. Perhaps 'Brexit means Brexit' is meant to be taken at face value.
    I was joking, that's why I labelled it as a conspiracy. Part of May's honeymoon has been the quietening of the awkward squad and what seems like a return from some kippers, and I don't think she is interested in fighting that battle once her honeymoon period ends. I also think Boris will say or do anything, I don't believe he is committed to hard or soft Brexit. And since I don't think May would appoint Fox and Davis to key positions in the Brexit negotiations without backing their position, I think we'll end up with a medium to medium hard Brexit more than anything than can be called soft.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    "You begin to see the logic of Israels policy of dynamiting the family home of anyone who does this. (even if they lived at their parents or grandparents home)"
    Er, no u don't, unless you want to debase your values to the level of the terrorists.
  • booksellerbookseller Posts: 508
    Cyclefree said:

    This - http://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/08/all-the-east-is-moving - by historian Tom Holland is worth reading.

    One extract will suffice:-

    "The conceit that secular liberal democracy embodies an ideal that can transcend its origins in the specific cultural and religious traditions of Europe, and lay claim to a universal legitimacy, is one that has served the continent well. It has helped to heal the grievous wounds inflicted by the calamities of the first half of the twentieth century; to integrate large numbers of people from beyond the borders of Europe; and to provide a degree of equality for women and minorities. What do the sanguinary fantasies of either Breivik or of the jihadists who twice in 2015 brought carnage to the streets of Paris have that can compare? Only one thing, perhaps: a capacity to excite those who find the pieties of Europe’s liberal society boring. The more of these there are, the more—inevitably—the framework for behavior and governance that has prevailed in Western Europe since the end of the Second World War will come under strain. In question is whether the large numbers of migrants who have no familiarity with the norms of a secular and liberal society such as have evolved in a country like Germany will find them appealing enough to adopt; and whether native Europeans, confronted by a vast influx of people from a different cultural background, will themselves be tempted to abandon liberal values, and reach for a Holy Lance. "

    That's a fascinating article, and I very much appreciate the link - thanks.

    Tom Holland is a superb 'big picture' historian and author ('Rubicon' being one of my favourite ever history books) but I profoundly disagree with a comment at the end of the piece: "Today, though, in a Europe that has ceased to be Christendom, no ritual comparable to baptism exists—nor could possibly exist".

    I would point out the 'Pledge of Allegiance' in the US. It has the benefit of church/state separation (although "Under God" was added in 1954, when it crept in as part of a reaction against 'godless' communism) and it benefits from being daily read and reaffirmed in schools (as opposed to a one-off baptism ritual), so that everyone growing up in the US is subtly and consistently programmed to be patriotic - no bad thing.

    It was originally developed by a US Colonel who wanted to teach children - particularly children of immigrants - loyalty to the United States. Aside from the obvious resistance to such a pledge if introduced across Europe, there's nothing practical to prevent its adoption. It's certainly the mechanism Tom Holland is looking for, but he probably would find the removal of any explicit Christian reference objectionable.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Apologies the Raba Ohio poll is from June.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    rcs1000 said:



    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
    We covered the Italian north - south divide in O Level geography back in 1983. No change in a third of a century. I got a B, by the way.
    No change in a millenium perhaps! As an Italian friend from Bari said to me "Milan is a southern suburb of Paris, Naples a northern suburb of Cairo"
    The old gag is that Italy is Southern Germany plus Northern Africa.
    I imagine the Milanese praying every night that Southern Italy suddenly yearns for a return to the old Kingdom of the Two Sicilies boundaries and secedes :).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,989
    JackW said:

    Apologies the Raba Ohio poll is from June.

    Wishful linking, Jack.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    rcs1000 said:



    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
    We covered the Italian north - south divide in O Level geography back in 1983. No change in a third of a century. I got a B, by the way.
    No change in a millenium perhaps! As an Italian friend from Bari said to me "Milan is a southern suburb of Paris, Naples a northern suburb of Cairo"
    The old gag is that Italy is Southern Germany plus Northern Africa.
    What did u think $15/hour minimum wage in America, good idea ?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,567

    As understand it California is rather hand tied in what it can do because things like changes to main tax raising avenues all require a public referendum, which they know they will never pass.

    Image if the CoE here couldn't alter VAT or income tax or any thresholds in the budget without a public vote each year.

    Democracy gone too far?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107

    Yet another PROGRESS propaganda thread from the Crypto-Tories of Political Betting :lol:

    Final Pre coup Poll Tory lead 0%

    Latest Post Coup Poll Tory lead 16%

    Thats PROGRESS
    So he should've quit. Wonder how low St Jez is going to take Labour.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,672
    John_M said:

    Cyclefree said:

    He's one of my favourite historians (along with John Julius Norwich). I certainly enjoyed reading that essay - he writes well and with great erudition. However, it's very hard to see what actions we take.

    As he points out, we are hindered by the aftershocks of Europe's 20th century history (we are far and away the bloodiest civilisation ever) and our fetish for secular liberality. It's very difficult for the commentariat and our political/cultural elites to resile from their cultural relativism (love them or loathe them the Victorians were possessed of a muscular Christian faith and the associated superiority complex that Got Things Done).

    We are importing people from the cultural past, who are unimpressed with our obsession with equality, identity and gender issues. Worse, a fraction of our native born Muslims appear to be attracted to this more primitive and less compromising interpretation of Islam.

    I have no idea how we progress from here, sorry to say.
    It's not just equality, identity and gender issues some people are unimpressed by. It is the whole liberal democratic tradition. Islamism is, IMO, best seen as in the tradition of other reactions (reactionary movements) to the growth of Enlightenment-inspired liberalism in the 19th century - such as Communism/Fascism/Nazism (movements with which Islamism has more in common than some might allow). We won over those three - though in a very bloody way. We can defeat the latter. But we need to do so sooner rather than later, if we are to avoid the same sort of sanguinary confrontation that so disfigured the 20th century.

    I wish I had answers. I have suggestions. But I do think that if we are to avoid literal fighting we need to fight an ideological battle and not simply rely on security measures / criminal law measures. Bad ideas are defeated by better ideas. And the first bad idea we need to get rid of is, as you say, our cringing cultural relativism - a veritable trahison des clercs. We do have better ideas and we need to stand up for them. They are our ideas and here in the West they are the ones which should prevail.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,989
    I just turned on the DNC stream and it's wall to wall Bernie Sanders. People nominating him as the Democratic candidate for President to rapturous applause. What is going on?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,502
    John_M said:

    rcs1000 said:



    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
    We covered the Italian north - south divide in O Level geography back in 1983. No change in a third of a century. I got a B, by the way.
    No change in a millenium perhaps! As an Italian friend from Bari said to me "Milan is a southern suburb of Paris, Naples a northern suburb of Cairo"
    The old gag is that Italy is Southern Germany plus Northern Africa.
    I imagine the Milanese praying every night that Southern Italy suddenly yearns for a return to the old Kingdom of the Two Sicilies boundaries and secedes :).
    There's a reason why the Liga Nord is now the third biggest party in Italy.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,191
    edited July 2016
    RobD said:

    As understand it California is rather hand tied in what it can do because things like changes to main tax raising avenues all require a public referendum, which they know they will never pass.

    Image if the CoE here couldn't alter VAT or income tax or any thresholds in the budget without a public vote each year.

    Democracy gone too far?
    I cant remember the exact backstory but it has been in place for ages & it can from good intentions, but it really harms California now.

    Edit.

    The perils of extreme democracy

    http://www.economist.com/node/18586520
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,502
    nunu said:

    What did u think $15/hour minimum wage in America, good idea ?

    Personally, I think the Universal Basic Income is a better idea.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,309
    BBC News - 2016 worst for migrant deaths in Med - covers weaknesses of Libyan coastguards.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,806
    JackW said:

    Apologies the Raba Ohio poll is from June.

    "Apology accepted, Captain Needa!"
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,191
    edited July 2016
    One thing I would say about the US is that living costs vary tremendously both within the same states & across the country.

    I can't imagine trying to exist on even $15/hr in NY city, but you can live ok in rural NY on that, let alone somewhere like rural nebreska.

    From personal expetience, Washington state is another good example. Seattle is pretty damn expensive place, but drive as little as 30 mins & you are in rural hillbilly land where living costs are just a fraction.

    In the UK, because if shortage of housing etc etc etc, I don't think we get that kind of drop of. Sure it is very expensive to live in London, but it isn't cheap to live anywhere in the SE.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    What did u think $15/hour minimum wage in America, good idea ?

    Personally, I think the Universal Basic Income is a better idea.
    That's fine get rid of Job seekers allowence first (or whatever the equvilent is).
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,936
    edited July 2016
    Jonathan said:

    Yet another PROGRESS propaganda thread from the Crypto-Tories of Political Betting :lol:

    Final Pre coup Poll Tory lead 0%

    Latest Post Coup Poll Tory lead 16%

    Thats PROGRESS
    So he should've quit. Wonder how low St Jez is going to take Labour.
    PLP PROGRESS led Coup effect -16%

    Shock how can it be so
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Apologies the Raba Ohio poll is from June.

    Wishful linking, Jack.
    Hardly. The last two polls are Clinton +4 and Trump +2. The state is tight but we require post convention polling in due course.
  • I just turned on the DNC stream and it's wall to wall Bernie Sanders. People nominating him as the Democratic candidate for President to rapturous applause. What is going on?

    Its the roll call of states' nominations. People make speeches about each candidate. Bernie has apparently requested Vermont goes last, so that his 'home' state noms Hillary.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,351
    Jonathan said:

    Yet another PROGRESS propaganda thread from the Crypto-Tories of Political Betting :lol:

    Final Pre coup Poll Tory lead 0%

    Latest Post Coup Poll Tory lead 16%

    Thats PROGRESS
    So he should've quit. Wonder how low St Jez is going to take Labour.
    To be fair to Corbyn, the more dynamic factor there isn't on the Labour side.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,159
    John_M said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Theresa May is under growing pressure from Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to pull out of the EU customs union, a move required to facilitate post-Brexit bilateral trade deals but which would impose costs on exporters and could strain Anglo-Irish relations.

    The issue is looming as a battleground in discussions over whether the UK will pursue a “hard” or “soft” Brexit. It will have to be resolved before London triggers Article 50, the starting gun for withdrawal negotiations with the EU.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87614da-533a-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60.html#axzz4FXxzjS4s

    I'm a little surprised May would not have come to a conclusion about what to go for and that Fox would have insisted upon knowing that prior to accepting his position.
    I reckon that's why she made Boris Foreign Secretary, he's a soft Brexiteer
    What about Davis as Brexit Secretary, isn't he a Hard Brexiteer?

    Conspiracy theory - the Hard Brexiteers will get frustrated and threaten to flounce out, May will have Boris lead the argument against them and subsume Brexit department into the Foreign Office once she beats the Hard Brexiteers
    Occam's razor please. She put the soft Brexiteer in the FCO Gladhanding department and put the hard Brexiteer in the EU facing position. This implies that Mrs May is a hard Brexiteer herself. Perhaps 'Brexit means Brexit' is meant to be taken at face value.
    I pick up two red lines from Theresa May. First, Brexit must look like separation. As long as nothing is "lite", there is room for manoeuvre. Her second concern is to maintain the Union, not something that greatly exercises hard Bexiteers.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,659

    Theresa May is under growing pressure from Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to pull out of the EU customs union, a move required to facilitate post-Brexit bilateral trade deals but which would impose costs on exporters and could strain Anglo-Irish relations.

    The issue is looming as a battleground in discussions over whether the UK will pursue a “hard” or “soft” Brexit. It will have to be resolved before London triggers Article 50, the starting gun for withdrawal negotiations with the EU.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87614da-533a-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60.html#axzz4FXxzjS4s

    This should carry a healthy "FT" warning, but an EFTA/EEA option for the UK would not be part of the EU customs union.

    To be honest, if we're going to stay in the EU customs union, there is little point in leaving.

    That would be a red line for me too.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Paul_Bedfordshire


    'Things like this as well as large scale internment and deportations could soon be on the agenda alas (as parties scramble to keep power and not lose it to the sort of people who round ten of the perpetrators relatives up and execute them pour l'encouragement des autres).'


    They need to pull their finger out and do something, people are tired of hearing 'solidarity' eleven times after each atrocity.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,351
    rcs1000 said:



    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevan

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
    We covered the Italian north - south divide in O Level geography back in 1983. No change in a third of a century. I got a B, by the way.
    No change in a millenium perhaps! As an Italian friend from Bari said to me "Milan is a southern suburb of Paris, Naples a northern suburb of Cairo"
    The old gag is that Italy is Southern Germany plus Northern Africa.
    A similar take on thatis that in Milan, traffic lights are instructions; in Rome they are suggestions; in Naples they are Christmas decorations.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Theresa May is under growing pressure from Liam Fox, the trade secretary, to pull out of the EU customs union, a move required to facilitate post-Brexit bilateral trade deals but which would impose costs on exporters and could strain Anglo-Irish relations.

    The issue is looming as a battleground in discussions over whether the UK will pursue a “hard” or “soft” Brexit. It will have to be resolved before London triggers Article 50, the starting gun for withdrawal negotiations with the EU.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e87614da-533a-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60.html#axzz4FXxzjS4s

    I'm a little surprised May would not have come to a conclusion about what to go for and that Fox would have insisted upon knowing that prior to accepting his position.
    I reckon that's why she made Boris Foreign Secretary, he's a soft Brexiteer
    What about Davis as Brexit Secretary, isn't he a Hard Brexiteer?

    Conspiracy theory - the Hard Brexiteers will get frustrated and threaten to flounce out, May will have Boris lead the argument against them and subsume Brexit department into the Foreign Office once she beats the Hard Brexiteers
    All woe, trouble and strife for Brexiteers..... The End of Days is upon us.....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,989
    Scott_P said:

    The Times of London

    Tomorrow's front page: Millions of Labour voters place May above Corbyn #Tomorrowspaperstoday

    Millions of ex-Labour voters.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107

    Jonathan said:

    Yet another PROGRESS propaganda thread from the Crypto-Tories of Political Betting :lol:

    Final Pre coup Poll Tory lead 0%

    Latest Post Coup Poll Tory lead 16%

    Thats PROGRESS
    So he should've quit. Wonder how low St Jez is going to take Labour.
    PLP PROGRESS led Coup effect -16%

    Shock how can it be so
    Jez is leader, the buck stops with him.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,225

    Jonathan said:

    Yet another PROGRESS propaganda thread from the Crypto-Tories of Political Betting :lol:

    Final Pre coup Poll Tory lead 0%

    Latest Post Coup Poll Tory lead 16%

    Thats PROGRESS
    So he should've quit. Wonder how low St Jez is going to take Labour.
    PLP PROGRESS led Coup effect -16%

    Shock how can it be so
    BJO - do you honestly think a United Labour Party led by Jezza would be in a different position?

    The problem with Labour leadership of today is that it doesn't even represent the Labour voters of 2015....
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,783

    Yet another PROGRESS propaganda thread from the Crypto-Tories of Political Betting :lol:

    Final Pre coup Poll Tory lead 0%

    Latest Post Coup Poll Tory lead 16%

    Thats PROGRESS
    No, it's what happens when the leader of a political party is so divorced from reality that he considers that he can carry on after nearly all of his MPs and almost all of his front bench team have told him that he should not.

    Presumably you agree too with Corbyn when he crassly tells then us that he's "enjoying every moment" of this.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,659

    rcs1000 said:



    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevan

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
    We covered the Italian north - south divide in O Level geography back in 1983. No change in a third of a century. I got a B, by the way.
    No change in a millenium perhaps! As an Italian friend from Bari said to me "Milan is a southern suburb of Paris, Naples a northern suburb of Cairo"
    The old gag is that Italy is Southern Germany plus Northern Africa.
    A similar take on thatis that in Milan, traffic lights are instructions; in Rome they are suggestions; in Naples they are Christmas decorations.
    Like
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    PlatoSaid said:

    Conflict News
    SUMMARY: What we know about the execution of a priest in Normandy, France today. https://t.co/ylbf8uV8dU

    From that summary / brother connection, the second attacker likely to have been well known to the authorities. I wonder why they are only naming one of them publicly? I am presuming there is a particular reason in this case.
    A minor maybe? So many terribly things happening I'm losing track.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,191
    edited July 2016
    Alistair said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Conflict News
    SUMMARY: What we know about the execution of a priest in Normandy, France today. https://t.co/ylbf8uV8dU

    From that summary / brother connection, the second attacker likely to have been well known to the authorities. I wonder why they are only naming one of them publicly? I am presuming there is a particular reason in this case.
    A minor maybe? So many terribly things happening I'm losing track.
    Could well be. The French have already arrested a 17 year old in connection with this.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    YouGov poll numbers from the "Times" appear to be :

    Con 40 .. Lab 28 .. UKIP 13 .. LibDem 8
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Yet another PROGRESS propaganda thread from the Crypto-Tories of Political Betting :lol:

    Final Pre coup Poll Tory lead 0%

    Latest Post Coup Poll Tory lead 16%

    Thats PROGRESS
    So he should've quit. Wonder how low St Jez is going to take Labour.
    PLP PROGRESS led Coup effect -16%

    Shock how can it be so
    Jez is leader, the buck stops with him.
    Unless Jezza is toast; the Labour party is toast.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,659
    edited July 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    John_M said:

    Cyclefree said:

    He's one of my favourite historians (along with John Julius Norwich). I certainly enjoyed reading that essay - he writes well and with great erudition. However, it's very hard to see what actions we take.

    As he points out, we are hindered by the aftershocks of Europe's 20th century history (we are far and away the bloodiest civilisation ever) and our fetish for secular liberality. It's very difficult for the commentariat and our political/cultural elites to resile from their cultural relativism (love them or loathe them the Victorians were possessed of a muscular Christian faith and the associated superiority complex that Got Things Done).

    We are importing people from the cultural past, who are unimpressed with our obsession with equality, identity and gender issues. Worse, a fraction of our native born Muslims appear to be attracted to this more primitive and less compromising interpretation of Islam.

    I have no idea how we progress from here, sorry to say.
    It's not just equality, identity and gender issues some people are unimpressed by. It is the whole liberal democratic tradition. Islamism is, IMO, best seen as in the tradition of other reactions (reactionary movements) to the growth of Enlightenment-inspired liberalism in the 19th century - such as Communism/Fascism/Nazism (movements with which Islamism has more in common than some might allow). We won over those three - though in a very bloody way. We can defeat the latter. But we need to do so sooner rather than later, if we are to avoid the same sort of sanguinary confrontation that so disfigured the 20th century.

    I wish I had answers. I have suggestions. But I do think that if we are to avoid literal fighting we need to fight an ideological battle and not simply rely on security measures / criminal law measures. Bad ideas are defeated by better ideas. And the first bad idea we need to get rid of is, as you say, our cringing cultural relativism - a veritable trahison des clercs. We do have better ideas and we need to stand up for them. They are our ideas and here in the West they are the ones which should prevail.

    Post colonial guilt, and the old canard of 'cultural relativism = you're a bit of a racist Nazi' needs to be shaken out of our system first. And fast.

    In the West, we still live in the shadows of the legacy of WWII.

    I sense the electorate are there. The politicians and "opinion formers" are not.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Yet another PROGRESS propaganda thread from the Crypto-Tories of Political Betting :lol:

    Final Pre coup Poll Tory lead 0%

    Latest Post Coup Poll Tory lead 16%

    Thats PROGRESS
    No, it's what happens when the leader of a political party is so divorced from reality that he considers that he can carry on after nearly all of his MPs and almost all of his front bench team have told him that he should not.

    Presumably you agree too with Corbyn when he crassly tells then us that he's "enjoying every moment" of this.
    What do you expect? Not many people realise this, but Corbyn's spirit animal is the barnacle.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited July 2016
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Casino_Royale


    'This should carry a healthy "FT" warning, but an EFTA/EEA option for the UK would not be part of the EU customs union.

    To be honest, if we're going to stay in the EU customs union, there is little point in leaving.

    That would be a red line for me too.'


    Staying in the EU customs union would not be leaving the EU so is a non starter.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Yet another PROGRESS propaganda thread from the Crypto-Tories of Political Betting :lol:

    Final Pre coup Poll Tory lead 0%

    Latest Post Coup Poll Tory lead 16%

    Thats PROGRESS
    So he should've quit. Wonder how low St Jez is going to take Labour.
    PLP PROGRESS led Coup effect -16%

    Shock how can it be so
    Jez is leader, the buck stops with him.
    Unless Jezza is toast; the Labour party is toast.

    Well quite. Has been the case for weeks.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    America is yuge!
  • DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    The Corbyn brand is trashed now isn't it? OK he wins the leadership, gets a few MPs back on board, simply impossible for him to recover his credibility.

    Something to thank the PLP for.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    RobD said:

    As understand it California is rather hand tied in what it can do because things like changes to main tax raising avenues all require a public referendum, which they know they will never pass.

    Image if the CoE here couldn't alter VAT or income tax or any thresholds in the budget without a public vote each year.

    Democracy gone too far?
    Californian public loves passing referendums to spend money on things but hates passing referendums to raise the taxes to pay for those things. Why they don't bundle the tax-and-spend together in a single proposition elludes me.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    DanSmith said:

    The Corbyn brand is trashed now isn't it? OK he wins the leadership, gets a few MPs back on board, simply impossible for him to recover his credibility.

    Something to thank the PLP for.

    You cannot recover something you never had.
  • wasdwasd Posts: 276
    We really are going back to the 70's - the Dutch police are after a bunch of Red Army Faction members.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,546
    DanSmith said:

    The Corbyn brand is trashed now isn't it? OK he wins the leadership, gets a few MPs back on board, simply impossible for him to recover his credibility.

    Something to thank the PLP for.

    It was always thrashed before he became leader, what we're seeing is the Theresa May honeymoon effect kicking in.

    It won't last
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,265
    edited July 2016

    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevan

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
    We covered the Italian north - south divide in O Level geography back in 1983. No change in a third of a century. I got a B, by the way.
    I know someone who wrote about it in their GCSEs last year!
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Tonight's supporting nominations

    Battersea CLP: Smith
    Pudsey CLP; Corbyn 50 Smith 46
    Sutton and Cheam CLP: Corbyn 32 Smith 11
    Hastings & Rye CLP: Corbyn 38 Smith 3
    South Cambridgeshire CLP: Corbyn 35 Smith 26 spoilt 2
    Harrow East CLP: Corbyn

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,989
    Cyclefree said:

    Islamism is, IMO, best seen as in the tradition of other reactions (reactionary movements) to the growth of Enlightenment-inspired liberalism in the 19th century - such as Communism/Fascism/Nazism (movements with which Islamism has more in common than some might allow). We won over those three - though in a very bloody way. We can defeat the latter.

    Isn't one of the challenges identifying the power centre that needs to be defeated to define victory? We knew when Nazism was defeated and we knew (more or less) when communism was defeated.

    Is our victory moment when Saudi Arabia experiences a revolution?

    I hope we won't need to wait unless Islamism takes over a major military power before we're able to define the enemy. The parallels between Hitler and Erdogan are scary to contemplate.
  • MontyHallMontyHall Posts: 226
    Seems the priest killed in France was only conducting the ceremony as the usual Father was on holiday. How awful
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited July 2016
    I suspect there's some short-term value laying trump on betfair at current odds.

    In a weeks time, I think it's more likely than not his odds will have lengthened.
  • MontyHallMontyHall Posts: 226
    BBC news reporting a house in Brent was being rented to 17 immigrants plus one living in an outside shack... £80k pa income for the Landlord!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,960
    MontyHall said:

    BBC news reporting a house in Brent was being rented to 17 immigrants plus one living in an outside shack... £80k pa income for the Landlord!

    Would the one in the shack be the outsider of the group, or the leader, as they got their own space I wonder?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,159
    Cyclefree said:




    It's not just equality, identity and gender issues some people are unimpressed by. It is the whole liberal democratic tradition. Islamism is, IMO, best seen as in the tradition of other reactions (reactionary movements) to the growth of Enlightenment-inspired liberalism in the 19th century - such as Communism/Fascism/Nazism (movements with which Islamism has more in common than some might allow). We won over those three - though in a very bloody way. We can defeat the latter. But we need to do so sooner rather than later, if we are to avoid the same sort of sanguinary confrontation that so disfigured the 20th century.

    I wish I had answers. I have suggestions. But I do think that if we are to avoid literal fighting we need to fight an ideological battle and not simply rely on security measures / criminal law measures. Bad ideas are defeated by better ideas. And the first bad idea we need to get rid of is, as you say, our cringing cultural relativism - a veritable trahison des clercs. We do have better ideas and we need to stand up for them. They are our ideas and here in the West they are the ones which should prevail.

    You can never sort out other people's problems. Arabs have problems that only they can solve. They are problems many Arabs, maybe most, are painfully aware of.

    The real villain in my view is the president of Egypt, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, who killed off the Arab Spring, which was a incoherent but genuine attempt at a better, more liberal society, which if it had taken root would have crowded out nihilistic ideologies like Islamic State. Eventually it would have tempered, if not eliminated, mainstream Islamic parties like the Muslim Brotherhood who would have had electorates to answer to. As the most populous, most important Arab state, politically and culturally, Egypt has a huge influence on the rest of Arabia. If it were seen to be a success, other Arab countries would fall into line.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    MontyHall said:

    BBC news reporting a house in Brent was being rented to 17 immigrants plus one living in an outside shack... £80k pa income for the Landlord!

    If our shiftless underclass were only prepared to live in squalor, they'd be able to knock spots off Johnny Immigrant.
This discussion has been closed.