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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Today’s 2nd terrible poll for Corbyn: YouGov ratings from i

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited July 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Today’s 2nd terrible poll for Corbyn: YouGov ratings from its latest Scotland survey

Remember in those by-gone days in September 2015 when Mr. Corbyn pulled off his sensational leadership victory? Remember what he said would be his biggest initial priority? That was going to be Scotland where five months earlier Labour had slumped from 40 seats in the general election to just one – the same as the LD and CON.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,594
    Things can only get better
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    Things can only get better

    Cheater! ;)
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062
    It just stopped me from being first. I love when you come on to PB and there's a new thread with no comments.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    It just stopped me from being first. I love when you come on to PB and there's a new thread with no comments.

    Then a couple of PB Tories come and spoil all the fun. They really are scum, aren't they :D
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    He [Adel K, 19, "known locally as Ernie"] started making contact with radicals on the internet after the Charlie Hebdo and kosher supermarket attacks in January last year.

    He came to the authorities’ attention when he tried to help an underage teenager from Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray join Isil.

    He twice attempted to go to Syria but was arrested once in Munich and then turned back by the Turkish authorities and sent to Geneva, in May 2015.

    The Swiss authorities charged him with “criminal association in connection with terrorism”. He was sent back to France and jailed for ten months.

    He was tagged when he came out of prison in March this year. The public prosecutor appealed unsuccessfully against his release.

    A French security source said he was in contact with Maxime Hauchard, a French jihadist identified as an Isil executioner.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/26/two-men-with-knifes-take-hostages-in-normandy-church/
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,594
    RobD said:

    Things can only get better

    Cheater! ;)
    I'm not going to be first for the next fortnight or so.

    I'm going to places where betting is illegal and PB is blocked by the great firewalls of Verizon and Dubai
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    He's already beaten his internal opponents - that'll give him three years to hope the Tories mess things up sufficiently.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    RobD said:

    Things can only get better

    Cheater! ;)
    I'm not going to be first for the next fortnight or so.

    I'm going to places where betting is illegal and PB is blocked by the great firewalls of Verizon and Dubai
    We shall dispatch threads via carrier pigeon!
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,594
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Things can only get better

    Cheater! ;)
    I'm not going to be first for the next fortnight or so.

    I'm going to places where betting is illegal and PB is blocked by the great firewalls of Verizon and Dubai
    We shall dispatch threads via carrier pigeon!
    It makes me sad, this could be my last visit to America before Donald Trump bans me
  • Options
    A week or so ago various Labour Corbyn supporters were saying how well Labour had done in real elections in 2016. The interviewers (as usual) were so badly informed that they did not raise the Labour performance at the Scots parliament elections. When will the dire performance of Labour in Scotland be raised in national media? It is a shocking example of Corbyn's failure and cannot easily be blamed on Leadership challenges.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Things can only get better

    Cheater! ;)
    I'm not going to be first for the next fortnight or so.

    I'm going to places where betting is illegal and PB is blocked by the great firewalls of Verizon and Dubai
    We shall dispatch threads via carrier pigeon!
    It makes me sad, this could be my last visit to America before Donald Trump bans me
    Hasn't he softened that to countries that harbor ill will to the US? Kinda worried for all Brits. We did have that snafu in the late 1700s. And not to mention the incident with the White House...

    In any case, PB access is unfettered across the pond (thank god).
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited July 2016
    There was a shooting in Malmo a few hours ago. Not terrorism, just apparently one of a number of gang related shootings over the past few weeks in the same area of Malmo that houses...erhhh...whats the word of the people fleeing war.....refu...something.
  • Options
    PaganPagan Posts: 259
    FPT
    EPG said:



    How do you deal with it when there are millions of Muslims and a few dozen terrorists? Might Christian Westerners have done something in the last fourteen years that led to the killings of Christians in Iraq?

    1) There are a more than a few dozen terrorists
    2) There is a an alarmingly large pool of sympathizer muslims embedded in the west. Before you ask for a source consider how many hundreds have travelled from europe to syria
    3) Why is it we are always told we shouldn't blame all muslims for terrorist atrocities yet you seem fine justifying the killing of iraqi christians because of what some other christians did

    You sir are part of the problem
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Scotland don't like any leader who is not Scottish. They are very insular - one might say racist.

  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,618
    "I don’t recall ever seeing as bad ratings figures for a party leader from party supporters."

    Nor I Mike.

    And in addition, I cannot ever recall seeing a poll where a party leader's performance is rated even worse amongst supporters of his own party than amongst supporters of his opponents.

    i.e. Net ratings for Corbyn:
    from Labour 2015 voters -47%
    from SNP 2015 voters -23%.


  • Options
    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited July 2016

    The IRA were roman catholics but we did not think all roman catholics were potential terrorists.

    However, religious sect is a risk factor when sifting out terrorists.

    Discuss.

    There was very strict racial profiling to join the civil service etc. if you were Catholic with an Irish background in the UK during the troubles. Colleagues at school experienced it first hand. All sorts of alarm bells went off and all sorts of thorough checks were made.

    Was I outraged. Not really. Frankly it was common sense. What is worse,someone having their pride slighted by being profiled at an airport due to their appearance or accent or someone having their head cut off in church?

    This modern fad for abhoring all forms of discrimination is now downright dangerous.

    There is necessary and unnecessary discrimination. We need to er..discriminate between them.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068

    RobD said:

    Things can only get better

    Cheater! ;)
    I'm not going to be first for the next fortnight or so.

    I'm going to places where betting is illegal and PB is blocked by the great firewalls of Verizon and Dubai
    Download the beta version of Opera. It has a built in VPN (free!) to enable you circumvent geoblocks.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited July 2016
    lol @ the 2% of GE15 SNP voters who are delighted that Ms May has become Prime minister....

    ;)
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    There was a shooting in Malmo a few hours ago. Not terrorism, just apparently one of a number of gang related shootings over the past few weeks in the same area of Malmo that houses...erhhh...whats the word of the people fleeing war.....refu...something.

    Don't forget the poor sod hacked to death in Calais last night. Afghans versus Africans AIUI.
  • Options

    He [Adel K, 19, "known locally as Ernie"] started making contact with radicals on the internet after the Charlie Hebdo and kosher supermarket attacks in January last year.

    He came to the authorities’ attention when he tried to help an underage teenager from Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray join Isil.

    He twice attempted to go to Syria but was arrested once in Munich and then turned back by the Turkish authorities and sent to Geneva, in May 2015.

    The Swiss authorities charged him with “criminal association in connection with terrorism”. He was sent back to France and jailed for ten months.

    He was tagged when he came out of prison in March this year. The public prosecutor appealed unsuccessfully against his release.

    A French security source said he was in contact with Maxime Hauchard, a French jihadist identified as an Isil executioner.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/26/two-men-with-knifes-take-hostages-in-normandy-church/

    Ernie FFS? Was he the fastest Jihadi in the west?

    (with apologies to the late Benny Hill)
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited July 2016

    He [Adel K, 19, "known locally as Ernie"] started making contact with radicals on the internet after the Charlie Hebdo and kosher supermarket attacks in January last year.

    He came to the authorities’ attention when he tried to help an underage teenager from Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray join Isil.

    He twice attempted to go to Syria but was arrested once in Munich and then turned back by the Turkish authorities and sent to Geneva, in May 2015.

    The Swiss authorities charged him with “criminal association in connection with terrorism”. He was sent back to France and jailed for ten months.

    He was tagged when he came out of prison in March this year. The public prosecutor appealed unsuccessfully against his release.

    A French security source said he was in contact with Maxime Hauchard, a French jihadist identified as an Isil executioner.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/26/two-men-with-knifes-take-hostages-in-normandy-church/

    Ernie FFS? Was he the fastest Jihadi in the west?

    (with apologies to the late Benny Hill)
    I was thinking more Eric and Ernie...of Morecombe and Wise fame. I should be clear, they aren't really calling him that, I am just poking at the misreporting / lack of willingness to name names.

    I see the Germans are again not doing themselves any favours of lack of details of the shooting in Munich. They say not terrorist related and I am sure it isn't, but the lack of clarity after 7-8hrs is not good approach given the way they have handled other events.

    They are still very tight lipped about the knife man who became a BMW hood ornament the other day.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    He [Adel K, 19, "known locally as Ernie"] started making contact with radicals on the internet after the Charlie Hebdo and kosher supermarket attacks in January last year.

    He came to the authorities’ attention when he tried to help an underage teenager from Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray join Isil.

    He twice attempted to go to Syria but was arrested once in Munich and then turned back by the Turkish authorities and sent to Geneva, in May 2015.

    The Swiss authorities charged him with “criminal association in connection with terrorism”. He was sent back to France and jailed for ten months.

    He was tagged when he came out of prison in March this year. The public prosecutor appealed unsuccessfully against his release.

    A French security source said he was in contact with Maxime Hauchard, a French jihadist identified as an Isil executioner.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/26/two-men-with-knifes-take-hostages-in-normandy-church/

    Ernie FFS? Was he the fastest Jihadi in the west?

    (with apologies to the late Benny Hill)
    Probably a convert.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Things can only get better

    Cheater! ;)
    I'm not going to be first for the next fortnight or so.

    I'm going to places where betting is illegal and PB is blocked by the great firewalls of Verizon and Dubai
    Download the beta version of Opera. It has a built in VPN (free!) to enable you circumvent geoblocks.
    Does that work with streaming videos that require you to be in a particular nation?
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Scotland don't like any leader who is not Scottish. They are very insular - one might say racist.

    They voted for Blair tho.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    There was a shooting in Malmo a few hours ago. Not terrorism, just apparently one of a number of gang related shootings over the past few weeks in the same area of Malmo that houses...erhhh...whats the word of the people fleeing war.....refu...something.

    There are crimes committed in a normal daily basis you know not everything is a cover up.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,027
    nunu said:

    Scotland don't like any leader who is not Scottish. They are very insular - one might say racist.

    They voted for Blair tho.
    Tony was born in Edinburgh....
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,017
    nunu said:

    Scotland don't like any leader who is not Scottish. They are very insular - one might say racist.

    They voted for Blair tho.
    Born in Scotland, Scottish father, Irish mother (so says Wikipedia)
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    "I don’t recall ever seeing as bad ratings figures for a party leader from party supporters."

    Nor I Mike.

    And in addition, I cannot ever recall seeing a poll where a party leader's performance is rated even worse amongst supporters of his own party than amongst supporters of his opponents.

    i.e. Net ratings for Corbyn:
    from Labour 2015 voters -47%
    from SNP 2015 voters -23%.


    Because the people who left Labour for the SNP are the type to say " I did nae leave Labour, Labour left me". They are more persuaded (some of them) by Corbyns old Labour style. Though most people still don't know his policies yet.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    eek said:

    nunu said:

    Scotland don't like any leader who is not Scottish. They are very insular - one might say racist.

    They voted for Blair tho.
    Tony was born in Edinburgh....
    Yeah but c'mon u can hardly say he comes across as Scottish.


    I think there is something in that but let's not go too far there would not be a Tory revival in Scotland if Mundell was suddenly leader.
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    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,978
    Labour are pretty much doomed even if by some miracle Smith won.

    Owen Smith: "In 2 yrs time we will have made case for Britain to remain in EU. I'm confident of that. I will make case with great passion."

    Eh? Labour seem so hellbent on fighting past battles. Hopeless.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227

    The IRA were roman catholics but we did not think all roman catholics were potential terrorists.

    However, religious sect is a risk factor when sifting out terrorists.

    Discuss.

    There was very strict racial profiling to join the civil service etc. if you were Catholic with an Irish background in the UK during the troubles. Colleagues at school experienced it first hand. All sorts of alarm bells went off and all sorts of thorough checks were made.

    Was I outraged. Not really. Frankly it was common sense. What is worse,someone having their pride slighted by being profiled at an airport due to their appearance or accent or someone having their head cut off in church?

    This modern fad for abhoring all forms of discrimination is now downright dangerous.

    There is necessary and unnecessary discrimination. We need to er..discriminate between them.

    Exactly so. Discrimination on the basis of irrelevant reasons is wrong. But discrimination on the basis of relevant considerations is not only not wrong but essential.

    Sadly, religion i.e. let's be blunt - someone being a Muslim - can no longer be considered an irrelevant consideration. This may outrage some and may outrage and sadden Muslims who rightly hate the way they risk being bracketed with the monsters who committed today's outrage. Much as my father loathed the way he - a gentle Irish doctor - regularly travelling to and from his relations in Ireland was viewed by the authorities, when travelling, as another potential Irish terrorist. But he understood the reasons why. And he loathed even more the way Irish terrorists besmirched the country he loved and made Irish Catholics objects of suspicion in the country he now called home.

    Since we cannot make windows into mens' souls and since the state has an obligation to try and protect its citizens then it needs to target those measures it needs to take at those groups most likely to be the greatest risk, even while accepting that only a small proportion of that group will pose a real risk. Doing so while not turning the rest against you is the key. But not doing anything at all because the state is more concerned about upsetting innocent individuals than about protecting innocents from harm is both absurd and dangerous.

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,206
    nunu said:

    There was a shooting in Malmo a few hours ago. Not terrorism, just apparently one of a number of gang related shootings over the past few weeks in the same area of Malmo that houses...erhhh...whats the word of the people fleeing war.....refu...something.

    There are crimes committed in a normal daily basis you know not everything is a cover up.
    The worry is that the media is starting to lose interest. I know we had a new PM, but interest in the Nice attack last little more than a day. It's happening so often that it's no longer a story.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    JackW said:
    Oooh that is so close.


    Please, please please let him lose in a landslide.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227
    Pagan said:

    FPT

    EPG said:



    How do you deal with it when there are millions of Muslims and a few dozen terrorists? Might Christian Westerners have done something in the last fourteen years that led to the killings of Christians in Iraq?

    1) There are a more than a few dozen terrorists
    2) There is a an alarmingly large pool of sympathizer muslims embedded in the west. Before you ask for a source consider how many hundreds have travelled from europe to syria
    3) Why is it we are always told we shouldn't blame all muslims for terrorist atrocities yet you seem fine justifying the killing of iraqi christians because of what some other christians did

    You sir are part of the problem
    This is what I put in response to EPG on the previous thread:-

    "Blaming the victims I see. Are Muslims not moral agents? Do they bear no responsibility for what they do?

    What did Pakistani Christians do to justify attacks on them and their churches? Or Copts in Egypt? Or Christians in Nigeria or in Sudan?

    Do you think that Islamism started only 14 years ago? It has been around for decades and long before the second Iraq war. It is a peculiar form of European egocentricity that seems to believe even the actions of Islamist terrorists and the Islamic state and other Islamist organisations are the fault of Europeans, as if even when we are being attacked it can only really be about us, as if we have to be the centre of attention. Islamists are not children: they have a choice. And if they choose to do evil rather than good then I for one refuse to accept that it is my fault that they made a choice that others, including Muslims themselves, chose not to make. We do a disservice to all those Muslims who are not terrorists, who abhor what these people are doing, who choose good over evil by refusing to accept the moral agency of the bad guys."


  • Options
    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    nunu said:

    Scotland don't like any leader who is not Scottish. They are very insular - one might say racist.

    They voted for Blair tho.
    Who was?
  • Options
    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    tlg86 said:

    nunu said:

    There was a shooting in Malmo a few hours ago. Not terrorism, just apparently one of a number of gang related shootings over the past few weeks in the same area of Malmo that houses...erhhh...whats the word of the people fleeing war.....refu...something.

    There are crimes committed in a normal daily basis you know not everything is a cover up.
    The worry is that the media is starting to lose interest. I know we had a new PM, but interest in the Nice attack last little more than a day. It's happening so often that it's no longer a story.
    Is that necessarily a bad thing? It depends on the motives of the perpetrators. If they are out to spread fear and gain publicity then they are thwarted by the appearance of public indifference.
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    I'm beginning to think OGH is on a crusade trying to save the Labour party from Corbyn....
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    RobD said:

    It just stopped me from being first. I love when you come on to PB and there's a new thread with no comments.

    Then a couple of PB Tories come and spoil all the fun. They really are scum, aren't they :D
    Harsh but fair.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    nunu said:

    JackW said:
    Oooh that is so close.


    Please, please please let him lose in a landslide.
    Indeed.

    However we shouldn't get too excited by polls until after Labor Day ...
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227
    tlg86 said:

    nunu said:

    There was a shooting in Malmo a few hours ago. Not terrorism, just apparently one of a number of gang related shootings over the past few weeks in the same area of Malmo that houses...erhhh...whats the word of the people fleeing war.....refu...something.

    There are crimes committed in a normal daily basis you know not everything is a cover up.
    The worry is that the media is starting to lose interest. I know we had a new PM, but interest in the Nice attack last little more than a day. It's happening so often that it's no longer a story.
    We become inured to horror much as we did to the all too regular bombs in Northern Ireland during the Troubles.

    The big danger of this is that the terrorists will respond by seeking to ratchet up the horror.

    The challenge for our leaders is not to come out with the same statements but to provide leadership on this most troubling and difficult of issues in a way which does not exploit it or inflame the mob but which speaks with clarity about what is happening and how we might address it. We need leaders who understand that the state's primary and most important duty is to protect its citizens and that they need to do this for its own sake and not as a route to power.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    nunu said:

    There was a shooting in Malmo a few hours ago. Not terrorism, just apparently one of a number of gang related shootings over the past few weeks in the same area of Malmo that houses...erhhh...whats the word of the people fleeing war.....refu...something.

    There are crimes committed in a normal daily basis you know not everything is a cover up.
    Where did I say anything about a cover up? I said specifically it was criminal.
  • Options
    PaganPagan Posts: 259
    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan said:

    FPT

    EPG said:



    How do you deal with it when there are millions of Muslims and a few dozen terrorists? Might Christian Westerners have done something in the last fourteen years that led to the killings of Christians in Iraq?

    1) There are a more than a few dozen terrorists
    2) There is a an alarmingly large pool of sympathizer muslims embedded in the west. Before you ask for a source consider how many hundreds have travelled from europe to syria
    3) Why is it we are always told we shouldn't blame all muslims for terrorist atrocities yet you seem fine justifying the killing of iraqi christians because of what some other christians did

    You sir are part of the problem
    This is what I put in response to EPG on the previous thread:-

    "Blaming the victims I see. Are Muslims not moral agents? Do they bear no responsibility for what they do?

    What did Pakistani Christians do to justify attacks on them and their churches? Or Copts in Egypt? Or Christians in Nigeria or in Sudan?

    Do you think that Islamism started only 14 years ago? It has been around for decades and long before the second Iraq war. It is a peculiar form of European egocentricity that seems to believe even the actions of Islamist terrorists and the Islamic state and other Islamist organisations are the fault of Europeans, as if even when we are being attacked it can only really be about us, as if we have to be the centre of attention. Islamists are not children: they have a choice. And if they choose to do evil rather than good then I for one refuse to accept that it is my fault that they made a choice that others, including Muslims themselves, chose not to make. We do a disservice to all those Muslims who are not terrorists, who abhor what these people are doing, who choose good over evil by refusing to accept the moral agency of the bad guys."


    All you say is true and it is always the same sadly, people like EPG always look for an excuse for these people whether it is jihadi's , black gun crime , or the shopping riots. While we should be doing what we can to ameliorate those situations it doesn't change the fact that these people had the same choice that thousands of their peers who lived under the same circumstances and chose not to go down the road of violence had.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    I see Owen Smith has firmed up a bit on Betfair to 22% from 17% a few days back.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,206
    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    nunu said:

    There was a shooting in Malmo a few hours ago. Not terrorism, just apparently one of a number of gang related shootings over the past few weeks in the same area of Malmo that houses...erhhh...whats the word of the people fleeing war.....refu...something.

    There are crimes committed in a normal daily basis you know not everything is a cover up.
    The worry is that the media is starting to lose interest. I know we had a new PM, but interest in the Nice attack last little more than a day. It's happening so often that it's no longer a story.
    Is that necessarily a bad thing? It depends on the motives of the perpetrators. If they are out to spread fear and gain publicity then they are thwarted by the appearance of public indifference.
    I'm not sure really. I have in the past criticised the media for going over the top with their coverage. What we could do with a little more of is some investigations into what our governments are actually doing about this. I appreciate there is only so much they can do with limited resources, but what's happened with this guy in France sounds like a complete farce.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Things can only get better

    Cheater! ;)
    I'm not going to be first for the next fortnight or so.

    I'm going to places where betting is illegal and PB is blocked by the great firewalls of Verizon and Dubai
    Download the beta version of Opera. It has a built in VPN (free!) to enable you circumvent geoblocks.
    Does that work with streaming videos that require you to be in a particular nation?
    Yes. (Albeit that sometimes the quality is weak if there are lots of people using the Opera VPN service.)
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    How did the court case go? Is Jezza going to be allowed on the ballot?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GIN1138 said:

    How did the court case go? Is Jezza going to be allowed on the ballot?

    Judgement on Thursday
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,505
    On topic: Some thought that Corbyn would be successful in Scotland because, to simplify, Scotland is very left wing and Corbyn is very left wing. This sort of fallacy often gets trotted out (c.f. ex-mining areas) and is rarely challenged. The reason this is a fallacy is that it confuses the opinions of groups with the opinions of individual members of that group. You can get areas where many people support left-leaning parties, but with few individuals who are on the far left, just as, within right-leaning areas, some of the left-wing individuals can be very left wing indeed.

  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How did the court case go? Is Jezza going to be allowed on the ballot?

    Judgement on Thursday
    Oh!
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Glen Greenwald
    Owen Smith is somehow waging an even more inept challenge to Corbyn than Angela Eagle did https://t.co/a5oXGSbrVC https://t.co/1IHsYkhCL3
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Things can only get better

    Cheater! ;)
    I'm not going to be first for the next fortnight or so.

    I'm going to places where betting is illegal and PB is blocked by the great firewalls of Verizon and Dubai
    Download the beta version of Opera. It has a built in VPN (free!) to enable you circumvent geoblocks.
    Does that work with streaming videos that require you to be in a particular nation?
    Yes. (Albeit that sometimes the quality is weak if there are lots of people using the Opera VPN service.)
    Just a thought - the internet seems to think using VPNs is illegal in Dubai. I hate to think of TSE having to smuggle his AV threads out of Central Jail on memory sticks for the next decade.
  • Options
    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue, and for many voters that is still very much live. Owen Smith hinted at this in his Newsnight interview (even though he had no solution to offer either).

    If any of them could get their act together to propose something - ANYTHING - other than the status quo for the Union, then voters might consider that they were worth listening to.

    (Of course I'm old enough to remember that we were assured Corbyn would 'win back Scotland' when he was elected last September. How we laughed.)
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227
    tlg86 said:

    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    nunu said:

    There was a shooting in Malmo a few hours ago. Not terrorism, just apparently one of a number of gang related shootings over the past few weeks in the same area of Malmo that houses...erhhh...whats the word of the people fleeing war.....refu...something.

    There are crimes committed in a normal daily basis you know not everything is a cover up.
    The worry is that the media is starting to lose interest. I know we had a new PM, but interest in the Nice attack last little more than a day. It's happening so often that it's no longer a story.
    Is that necessarily a bad thing? It depends on the motives of the perpetrators. If they are out to spread fear and gain publicity then they are thwarted by the appearance of public indifference.
    I'm not sure really. I have in the past criticised the media for going over the top with their coverage. What we could do with a little more of is some investigations into what our governments are actually doing about this. I appreciate there is only so much they can do with limited resources, but what's happened with this guy in France sounds like a complete farce.
    There are plenty of detailed and well written articles about the context and background to what is going on e.g. life in the banlieues etc. What would be of interest is understanding the various constraints on the authorities e.g. how the French legal system deals with the ECHR / what anti-terrorist legislation they have (do they have control orders, for instance?) / how they deal with the various issues UK governments have grappled with / what do other countries do etc. That might lead to a better informed debate........

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue

    ...or indeed any other issue of substance.
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,618
    nunu said:

    "I don’t recall ever seeing as bad ratings figures for a party leader from party supporters."

    Nor I Mike.

    And in addition, I cannot ever recall seeing a poll where a party leader's performance is rated even worse amongst supporters of his own party than amongst supporters of his opponents.

    i.e. Net ratings for Corbyn:
    from Labour 2015 voters -47%
    from SNP 2015 voters -23%.


    Because the people who left Labour for the SNP are the type to say " I did nae leave Labour, Labour left me". They are more persuaded (some of them) by Corbyns old Labour style. Though most people still don't know his policies yet.
    I don't think you can claim that many are persuaded when those same polls suggest that even fewer Scots intend to vote for Labour under Corbyn than voted for Labour under Miliband, a pattern confirmed by the 2016 Holyrood election result.

    On the same theme, all those 2015 Green voters who registered in order to get Corbyn elected are by and large still intending to vote Green, as that party are polling at their general election level of 4% in the ICM poll.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227
    This - http://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/08/all-the-east-is-moving - by historian Tom Holland is worth reading.

    One extract will suffice:-

    "The conceit that secular liberal democracy embodies an ideal that can transcend its origins in the specific cultural and religious traditions of Europe, and lay claim to a universal legitimacy, is one that has served the continent well. It has helped to heal the grievous wounds inflicted by the calamities of the first half of the twentieth century; to integrate large numbers of people from beyond the borders of Europe; and to provide a degree of equality for women and minorities. What do the sanguinary fantasies of either Breivik or of the jihadists who twice in 2015 brought carnage to the streets of Paris have that can compare? Only one thing, perhaps: a capacity to excite those who find the pieties of Europe’s liberal society boring. The more of these there are, the more—inevitably—the framework for behavior and governance that has prevailed in Western Europe since the end of the Second World War will come under strain. In question is whether the large numbers of migrants who have no familiarity with the norms of a secular and liberal society such as have evolved in a country like Germany will find them appealing enough to adopt; and whether native Europeans, confronted by a vast influx of people from a different cultural background, will themselves be tempted to abandon liberal values, and reach for a Holy Lance. "
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    Scott_P said:

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue

    ...or indeed any other issue of substance.
    Well, there's that too...

    Labour are really on their way to Lib Dem style irrelevance here - you'd think after multiple drubbings at the ballot box, they might begin to get the message.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,227
    Scott_P said:

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue

    ...or indeed any other issue of substance.
    Now, now: be fair. He's developing a policy on medical research.

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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,795
    Leaving aside the Corbyn problem, Labour are squashed in a pincer movement in Scotland. If you are left wing and maybe a bit nationalist you vote SNP or Green. If you think the Union is more important than anything you vote Conservative. The SNP have picked up the WWC vote. So it's only strongly traditional Labour supporters or somewhat progressive middle class people who are also Unionist who vote Labour.
  • Options
    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited July 2016
    Scott_P said:

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue

    ...or indeed any other issue of substance.
    Well quite - he's been leader for a year and has he actually produced much of a policy on anything? Anything which could even I suppose be classified as a policy (eg. rail renationalisation) is really more of a "principle" than a "policy" unless there is some work showing how he actually intends to implement it.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,369
    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    alex. said:

    Scott_P said:

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue

    ...or indeed any other issue of substance.
    Well quite - he's been leader for a year and has he actually produced much of a policy on anything? Anything which could even I suppose be classified as a policy (eg. rail renationalisation) is really more of a "principle" than a "policy" unless there is some work showing how he actually intends to implement it.
    Corbyn is a professional protestor. That is what he does. This and that is wrong and the fault of the Tories, big business etc etc etc, but you never here any solutions that stand up for a second.
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    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261

    Labour are pretty much doomed even if by some miracle Smith won.

    Owen Smith: "In 2 yrs time we will have made case for Britain to remain in EU. I'm confident of that. I will make case with great passion."

    Eh? Labour seem so hellbent on fighting past battles. Hopeless.

    Removing Corbyn means eventually (and let's be honest it could take decades) Labour will be back as a credible opposition/alternative government. Corbyn wins and continues his Trot takeover Labour is finished.

    Smith is the only answer to one question, getting rid of Corbyn. There is no way Smith could lead Labour to a GE victory but it probably would save the party itself.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue, and for many voters that is still very much live. Owen Smith hinted at this in his Newsnight interview (even though he had no solution to offer either).

    If any of them could get their act together to propose something - ANYTHING - other than the status quo for the Union, then voters might consider that they were worth listening to.

    (Of course I'm old enough to remember that we were assured Corbyn would 'win back Scotland' when he was elected last September. How we laughed.)

    Full fiscal autonomy?

    But then SNP would cry we were short changing them. Scotland, I fear is a lost cause.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue, and for many voters that is still very much live. Owen Smith hinted at this in his Newsnight interview (even though he had no solution to offer either).

    If any of them could get their act together to propose something - ANYTHING - other than the status quo for the Union, then voters might consider that they were worth listening to.

    (Of course I'm old enough to remember that we were assured Corbyn would 'win back Scotland' when he was elected last September. How we laughed.)

    What more do you expect Labour to offer Scotland in constitutional terms? Independence perhaps? If they believed in that there would be nothing to differentiate them from the SNP. Moreover the people of Scotland have already spoken on that issue.
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    justin124 said:

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue, and for many voters that is still very much live. Owen Smith hinted at this in his Newsnight interview (even though he had no solution to offer either).

    If any of them could get their act together to propose something - ANYTHING - other than the status quo for the Union, then voters might consider that they were worth listening to.

    (Of course I'm old enough to remember that we were assured Corbyn would 'win back Scotland' when he was elected last September. How we laughed.)

    What more do you expect Labour to offer Scotland in constitutional terms? Independence perhaps? If they believed in that there would be nothing to differentiate them from the SNP. Moreover the people of Scotland have already spoken on that issue.
    Cracking, I'm sure voters will be rushing on 'home' to Labour then. As everything's sorted.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @RuthDavidsonMSP: Merely it became known, with extreme suddenness and everywhere at once, that Eastasia and not Eurasia was the enemy. https://t.co/in0JjYTunO
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048

    Labour are pretty much doomed even if by some miracle Smith won.

    Owen Smith: "In 2 yrs time we will have made case for Britain to remain in EU. I'm confident of that. I will make case with great passion."

    Eh? Labour seem so hellbent on fighting past battles. Hopeless.

    They might well make a great case I suppose - but by then the article 50 negotiations will be close to wrapping up and the date of our leaving will already be set.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167
    Dem Convention highlights on BBC Parliament now, Elizabeth Warren (introduced by Congressman Joseph P Kennedy, Bobby's grandson) giving quite a good, fluid performance if economically illiterate. Bill Clinton looking a bit moody, though he did applaud Michelle Obama earlier
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    Italy has got something of a tourism boost after the terrorist attacks in France, North Africa and Turkey. Regardless of its economic performance and the damage the euro has done to it remains the most beautiful nation in the western world in my view with excellent cuisine so will always have plenty going for it
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Cyclefree said:

    This - http://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/08/all-the-east-is-moving - by historian Tom Holland is worth reading.

    One extract will suffice:-

    "The conceit that secular liberal democracy embodies an ideal that can transcend its origins in the specific cultural and religious traditions of Europe, and lay claim to a universal legitimacy, is one that has served the continent well. It has helped to heal the grievous wounds inflicted by the calamities of the first half of the twentieth century; to integrate large numbers of people from beyond the borders of Europe; and to provide a degree of equality for women and minorities. What do the sanguinary fantasies of either Breivik or of the jihadists who twice in 2015 brought carnage to the streets of Paris have that can compare? Only one thing, perhaps: a capacity to excite those who find the pieties of Europe’s liberal society boring. The more of these there are, the more—inevitably—the framework for behavior and governance that has prevailed in Western Europe since the end of the Second World War will come under strain. In question is whether the large numbers of migrants who have no familiarity with the norms of a secular and liberal society such as have evolved in a country like Germany will find them appealing enough to adopt; and whether native Europeans, confronted by a vast influx of people from a different cultural background, will themselves be tempted to abandon liberal values, and reach for a Holy Lance. "

    He's one of my favourite historians (along with John Julius Norwich). I certainly enjoyed reading that essay - he writes well and with great erudition. However, it's very hard to see what actions we take.

    As he points out, we are hindered by the aftershocks of Europe's 20th century history (we are far and away the bloodiest civilisation ever) and our fetish for secular liberality. It's very difficult for the commentariat and our political/cultural elites to resile from their cultural relativism (love them or loathe them the Victorians were possessed of a muscular Christian faith and the associated superiority complex that Got Things Done).

    We are importing people from the cultural past, who are unimpressed with our obsession with equality, identity and gender issues. Worse, a fraction of our native born Muslims appear to be attracted to this more primitive and less compromising interpretation of Islam.

    I have no idea how we progress from here, sorry to say.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited July 2016
    FF43 said:

    Leaving aside the Corbyn problem, Labour are squashed in a pincer movement in Scotland. If you are left wing and maybe a bit nationalist you vote SNP or Green. If you think the Union is more important than anything you vote Conservative. The SNP have picked up the WWC vote. So it's only strongly traditional Labour supporters or somewhat progressive middle class people who are also Unionist who vote Labour.

    It is a case of waiting for the SNP to screw up. This year's Holyrood elections suggested that peak SNP has probably been reached with their vote share dropping back to 46.5% from 50% in May 2015. Had it been a Westminster election I doubt that they would have managed 45%. Labour only polled 22.6% but could have reached 25% in a Westminster election.
    It is probably not unrealistic to expect the SNP to fall back to 40 -42% by 2020 with their seats dropping below 50.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,369
    edited July 2016
    HYUFD said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    Italy has got something of a tourism boost after the terrorist attacks in France, North Africa and Turkey. Regardless of its economic performance and the damage the euro has done to it remains the most beautiful nation in the western world in my view with excellent cuisine so will always have plenty going for it
    Our family love Italy and it's people and hope you are right
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    HYUFD said:

    Dem Convention highlights on BBC Parliament now, Elizabeth Warren (introduced by Congressman Joseph P Kennedy, Bobby's grandson) giving quite a good, fluid performance if economically illiterate. Bill Clinton looking a bit moody, though he did applaud Michelle Obama earlier

    I'm infuriated by decent speakers (e.g. Warren) being heckled by BernieBro kidults. What a bunch of pillocks.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue, and for many voters that is still very much live. Owen Smith hinted at this in his Newsnight interview (even though he had no solution to offer either).

    If any of them could get their act together to propose something - ANYTHING - other than the status quo for the Union, then voters might consider that they were worth listening to.

    (Of course I'm old enough to remember that we were assured Corbyn would 'win back Scotland' when he was elected last September. How we laughed.)

    What more do you expect Labour to offer Scotland in constitutional terms? Independence perhaps? If they believed in that there would be nothing to differentiate them from the SNP. Moreover the people of Scotland have already spoken on that issue.
    Cracking, I'm sure voters will be rushing on 'home' to Labour then. As everything's sorted.
    What would you suggest?
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    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    justin124 said:

    FF43 said:

    Leaving aside the Corbyn problem, Labour are squashed in a pincer movement in Scotland. If you are left wing and maybe a bit nationalist you vote SNP or Green. If you think the Union is more important than anything you vote Conservative. The SNP have picked up the WWC vote. So it's only strongly traditional Labour supporters or somewhat progressive middle class people who are also Unionist who vote Labour.

    It is a case of waiting for the SNP to screw up. This year's Holyrood elections suggested that peak SNP has probably been reached with their vote share dropping back to 46.5% from 50% in May 2015. Had it been a Westminster election I doubth that they would have managed 45%. Labour only polled 22.6% but could have reached 25% in a Westminster election.
    It is probably not unrealistic to expect the SNP to fall back to 40 -42% by 2020 with their seats dropping below 50.
    But might there just be a pre-2015 situation in reverse? SNP decisions in Government might start to have an effect on their vote at Holyrood, but their vote at Westminster might hold up.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,369
    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    When we arrived at Rome Airport last Saturday we were directed to the EU passport control with the comment 'only for the next two years'. We all laughed including the Italian border guard who made the comment.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167
    edited July 2016
    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Plenty of people still buy Fiats and Ferraris and Lamborghinis
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Production is still about a quarter of GDP which is much more than Britain, so a weaker currency than Germany is important for competitiveness.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    justin124 said:

    It is a case of waiting for the SNP to screw up.

    The SNP are still riding 2 horses.

    As a party of Government, their honeymoon may be over. Their record of delivery is not stellar and the voters will notice.

    ...but...

    That doesn't really matter for Indy. The Brexit campaign has shown if the lies are big enough you can sell it.

    If they can win an Indyref, Government doesn't matter. Like the Brexiteers...
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited July 2016
    John_M said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This - http://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/08/all-the-east-is-moving - by historian Tom Holland is worth reading.



    "The conceit that secular liberal democracy embodies an ideal that can transcend its origins in the specific cultural and religious traditions of Europe, and lay claim to a universal legitimacy, is one that has served the continent well. It has helped to heal the grievous wounds inflicted by the calamities of the first half of the twentieth century; to integrate large numbers of people from beyond the borders of Europe; and to provide a degree of equality for women and minorities. What do the sanguinary fantasies of either Breivik or of the jihadists who twice in 2015 brought carnage to the streets of Paris have that can compare? Only one thing, perhaps: a capacity to excite those who find the pieties of Europe’s liberal society boring. The more of these there are, the more—inevitably—the framework for behavior and governance that has prevailed in Western Europe since the end of the Second World War will come under strain. In question is whether the large numbers of migrants who have no familiarity with the norms of a secular and liberal society such as have evolved in a country like Germany will find them appealing enough to adopt; and whether native Europeans, confronted by a vast influx of people from a different cultural background, will themselves be tempted to abandon liberal values, and reach for a Holy Lance. "

    He's one of my favourite historians (along with John Julius Norwich). I certainly enjoyed reading that essay - he writes well and with great erudition. However, it's very hard to see what actions we take.

    As he points out, we are hindered by the aftershocks of Europe's 20th century history (we are far and away the bloodiest civilisation ever) and our fetish for secular liberality. It's very difficult for the commentariat and our political/cultural elites to resile from their cultural relativism (love them or loathe them the Victorians were possessed of a muscular Christian faith and the associated superiority complex that Got Things Done).

    We are importing people from the cultural past, who are unimpressed with our obsession with equality, identity and gender issues. Worse, a fraction of our native born Muslims appear to be attracted to this more primitive and less compromising interpretation of Islam.

    I have no idea how we progress from here, sorry to say.
    a return to the muscular Christian faith and associated superiority complex that got things done or decline and fall.

    Russia has already taken the former option (which is why Putin is so despised by secular liberals) and Trump is threatening much the same in the USA.

    Europe needs to learn that you cannot excise Christianity from the civilization that grew out of that Christianity and still have the civilization for very long.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Plenty of people still buy Fiats and Ferraris and Lamborghinis
    Not enough, unemployment is 12%!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167

    HYUFD said:

    Dem Convention highlights on BBC Parliament now, Elizabeth Warren (introduced by Congressman Joseph P Kennedy, Bobby's grandson) giving quite a good, fluid performance if economically illiterate. Bill Clinton looking a bit moody, though he did applaud Michelle Obama earlier

    I'm infuriated by decent speakers (e.g. Warren) being heckled by BernieBro kidults. What a bunch of pillocks.
    There is a bit of Berniebot background noise but Warren's message, anti Wall Street and tax breaks for millionaires, anti division of Ohio workers and Hispanic workers etc was pretty similar to what Sanders was saying
  • Options
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue, and for many voters that is still very much live. Owen Smith hinted at this in his Newsnight interview (even though he had no solution to offer either).

    If any of them could get their act together to propose something - ANYTHING - other than the status quo for the Union, then voters might consider that they were worth listening to.

    (Of course I'm old enough to remember that we were assured Corbyn would 'win back Scotland' when he was elected last September. How we laughed.)

    What more do you expect Labour to offer Scotland in constitutional terms? Independence perhaps? If they believed in that there would be nothing to differentiate them from the SNP. Moreover the people of Scotland have already spoken on that issue.
    Cracking, I'm sure voters will be rushing on 'home' to Labour then. As everything's sorted.
    What would you suggest?
    That's Labour's problem, not mine.

    They possibly need to develop a Union or bust stance and stick to it as one, instead of dipping their toes in the water of Indyref2/briefing against either other and then running away again. It gives the impression that they want to switch horses, but are being run from London, which is the thing that weakens them most here.

    They seemed to start some exploration of full federalism, but that has gone nowhere.

    But as has already been outlined in full here, they're in a position where they're scrapping over 50% Unionist votes with Tories/LDs and saying nothing different to give people a reason to think they have any fresh thinking.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The Italians have been crushed by their membership of the Eurozone (not _just_ by that). They haven't generated appreciable economic growth since 1999. Their GDP/capita is lower than it was in '99.

    This is one of the reasons I hope that the Eurozone bites the bullet and heads for full EMU so that the necessary fiscal transfers can begin.

    Of course, Italy could do a Flitaly and leave the euro. Unfortunately there's no treaty mechanism (i.e. a euro equivalent of Lisbon's article 50) to allow them to do that without leaving the EU proper. They could unilaterally withdraw, but I suspect that would be crippling.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167

    HYUFD said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    Italy has got something of a tourism boost after the terrorist attacks in France, North Africa and Turkey. Regardless of its economic performance and the damage the euro has done to it remains the most beautiful nation in the western world in my view with excellent cuisine so will always have plenty going for it
    Our family love Italy and it's people and hope you are right
    Italy is the foundation of much of Western civilisation, I am sure it will be fine
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    alex. said:

    justin124 said:

    FF43 said:

    Leaving aside the Corbyn problem, Labour are squashed in a pincer movement in Scotland. If you are left wing and maybe a bit nationalist you vote SNP or Green. If you think the Union is more important than anything you vote Conservative. The SNP have picked up the WWC vote. So it's only strongly traditional Labour supporters or somewhat progressive middle class people who are also Unionist who vote Labour.

    It is a case of waiting for the SNP to screw up. This year's Holyrood elections suggested that peak SNP has probably been reached with their vote share dropping back to 46.5% from 50% in May 2015. Had it been a Westminster election I doubth that they would have managed 45%. Labour only polled 22.6% but could have reached 25% in a Westminster election.
    It is probably not unrealistic to expect the SNP to fall back to 40 -42% by 2020 with their seats dropping below 50.
    But might there just be a pre-2015 situation in reverse? SNP decisions in Government might start to have an effect on their vote at Holyrood, but their vote at Westminster might hold up.
    Difficult to see that happening in that Scottish issues are clearly more central to a Holyrood election. At the end of the day sending 56 SNP MPs to Westminster has hardly made much difference and only a few stand out as having been particularly effective. Some drift back to the other parties appears more likely as the emotional spasm subsides. I accept that quite a bit will depend on how Brexit is managed.
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    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dem Convention highlights on BBC Parliament now, Elizabeth Warren (introduced by Congressman Joseph P Kennedy, Bobby's grandson) giving quite a good, fluid performance if economically illiterate. Bill Clinton looking a bit moody, though he did applaud Michelle Obama earlier

    I'm infuriated by decent speakers (e.g. Warren) being heckled by BernieBro kidults. What a bunch of pillocks.
    There is a bit of Berniebot background noise but Warren's message, anti Wall Street and tax breaks for millionaires, anti division of Ohio workers and Hispanic workers etc was pretty similar to what Sanders was saying
    They seemed to be way too near the mikes at the start of Elizabeth Warren's speech, but were hushed by more sensible types as she got going.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue, and for many voters that is still very much live. Owen Smith hinted at this in his Newsnight interview (even though he had no solution to offer either).

    If any of them could get their act together to propose something - ANYTHING - other than the status quo for the Union, then voters might consider that they were worth listening to.

    (Of course I'm old enough to remember that we were assured Corbyn would 'win back Scotland' when he was elected last September. How we laughed.)

    What more do you expect Labour to offer Scotland in constitutional terms? Independence perhaps? If they believed in that there would be nothing to differentiate them from the SNP. Moreover the people of Scotland have already spoken on that issue.
    Cracking, I'm sure voters will be rushing on 'home' to Labour then. As everything's sorted.
    What would you suggest?
    That's Labour's problem, not mine.

    They possibly need to develop a Union or bust stance and stick to it as one, instead of dipping their toes in the water of Indyref2/briefing against either other and then running away again. It gives the impression that they want to switch horses, but are being run from London, which is the thing that weakens them most here.

    They seemed to start some exploration of full federalism, but that has gone nowhere.

    But as has already been outlined in full here, they're in a position where they're scrapping over 50% Unionist votes with Tories/LDs and saying nothing different to give people a reason to think they have any fresh thinking.
    Over time I expect the 50% Unionist vote to drift back to more like 60%.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167
    Sanders speaking now
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    justin124 said:

    At the end of the day sending 56 SNP MPs to Westminster has hardly made much difference

    The biggest impact has been on the amount of sleaze uncovered
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,618
    alex. said:

    Scott_P said:

    The main issue here in Scotland is that Corbyn has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer on the constitutional issue

    ...or indeed any other issue of substance.
    Well quite - he's been leader for a year and has he actually produced much of a policy on anything? Anything which could even I suppose be classified as a policy (eg. rail renationalisation) is really more of a "principle" than a "policy" unless there is some work showing how he actually intends to implement it.
    Richard Murphy provides a shambolic inside expose of Corbyn's policy making here:

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/07/17/the-rise-and-fall-of-corbyns-economics/

    Concluding: "If Jeremy and John had known what they were doing these impasses would not have happened. The impression left is that they have created a movement that hates what’s happening in the world and can get really angry about it, but then has not a clue what to do about it."


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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,594
    Betting related post

    Leaked Emails Appear To Show Steven Woolfe Is Ineligible To Stand In Ukip Leadership Race

    Rules state Ukip leadership hopefuls need to be a member for at least two years.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/steven-woolfe-ukip_uk_5797b95ee4b02508de478dc7?hkg1pmuq33libpgb9
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,397
    I am pretty sure I made these points on the last thread. The further point I made was such results are completely inconsistent with Corbyn winning in Scotland. How far out of London do the Corbynistas reach? Luton?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    nunu said:

    I have not posted much recently as I am enjoying being a converted Brexiteer and will watch with interest as the issue plays out but labour wanting to campaign to remain is evidence of their complete inability to change to meet the demands of an ever changing political climate and they have become wholly irrelevant, which is sad for democracy.

    I am on holiday with my family and grandchildren in Tuscany and we visited the leaning Tower of Pisa today in temperatures of 90+ but the noticeable change was the military presence and security scanning of all visitors to the Tower. It is a sad commentary on our times but very necessary.

    Italy seems quite impoverished and we returned to Viareggio where we had stayed 30 years ago with our children and it seemed quite sad with closed hotels and virtually empty beaches. The Italians were wonderful with families and children and remain so as does their dreadful driving. Our family have had many happy holidays in Italy over the years and hope things start to look up for them

    The sooner they leave the euro the better.
    They need to take their medicine now or face a long slow decline. Sad, they have (or had?) a decent manufacturing base I believe.
    Italy has more problems than just the Euro.

    Northern Italy is one of the richest places in the whole of Europe. Unemployment in parts of the North is as low as 3.8%! (See: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=lfst_r_lfu3rt&lang=en). It has a large and dynamic export industry, and a fabulous industrial base.

    Southern Italy is one of the poorest places in the whole of Europe. Parts of the South - Sicily and the like - have unemployment rates north of 20%, with appalling levels of crime, and the vast bulk of economic activity involves working for the government or extracting bribes from EU structural development funds. Of the 40 companies in the MIB index, four are based in Rome, the other 36 are in the North of the country. (And the four based in Rome are all there because they were privatisations of government businesses.)

    Germany has done a great job dealing with massive regional differences. Italy has done an appalling one.
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