[On a more serious note, it's 'the Sixth' because in the Bible seven represents the perfection of God and in the parable where Jesus turns water into wine, the water of men is kept in six jars, signifying that humanity is inferior to divinity. Thaddeus was also chosen because he's my favourite disciple].
JackW VIII thanks you ....
Edit .. My avatar is James VIII of Scotland.
I believe from the little I've read about him that the UK may have missed out on one of their better kings in James VIII/III
His son was a bit of a plonker, though.
Cough .... splutter .....
Listen here Del Boy .... neither Charles III or Henry IX may be described in such terms .... else I shall be extending participation in Auchentennach Fine Pies outside of the strict confines of the Liberal Democrats !!
The SNP said Scotland's decision against renewal should be respected.
It said the UK government should "remove these nuclear weapons of mass destruction from the Clyde".
Correct me if I am reading too much into this, but aren't the SNP effectively suggesting that they should have a veto on any decision taken by the Westminster Parliament that they don't like?
Not so much a veto on an independent nuclear deterrent, as opposed to a veto on what happens on Scottish soil (or under Scottish water). But nevertheless, an important attempt to redefine the relative powers of Holyrood and Westminster.
@Casino_Royale - I saw Nus Ghani on the Friday that the referendum results were announced, and as promised I gave her a kiss and a hug on your behalf! (Well, on my behalf mainly...).
She was still very upset by the Jo Cox murder - they'd worked closely together and got on very well. What's very disturbing is that MPs are getting a lot of nasty threats and hate mail, especially women MPs, and even more especially Nus as a muslim woman.
I believe that that list is in order of seniority. If I'm right, it's remarkable: Amber Rudd number 3, ahead of Boris, and with Davis and Fox next after Boris.
The promotion of Amber Rudd is one of the big stories of the May appointments.
Amber Rudd holds one of the great offices of state: Davis Fox et al do not. Boris does, of course, but's he's only just after her.
Just like any electorate, they don't like being told they got it wrong and asked to vote again. At least not without a polite interval and some very good reasons.
In fairness to Labour MPs, they have actually provided some good reasons, though the memebers seem to disagree.
The problem is that the rebel Labour MP's really HAVEN'T provided some good reasons to satisfy party members who supported Corbyn 10 months ago.
What those party members are hearing from Labour MP's is that a a large number have been openly critical of him since the day he was elected and have undermined him at every turn and opportunity. The media has joined in, what is perceived by members to be a witch-hunt, quoting Labour MP's criticisms and saying that Corbyn is unelectable. The Labour MP's are now saying that their lack of confidence and support for Corbyn is justified because Labour are performing badly.
Corbyn's in the party membership are saying, quite justifiably, that he was never given a fair chance by his own MP's from the outset, that he was entitled to receive solidarity and support from them, as he was fairly, emphatically and democratically elected by the membership. They accept that not all Labour MP's share his views, but CANNOT accept that it is fair and right to show such open opposition and in some cases derision to a leader supported by almost 60% of the membership, since day one.
His supporters point out that he has won every one of the 4 by-elections he has faced, increasing the Labour share of the vote in 3 of them. They also point out that in the loical council elections, despite all the predictions of gloom and despondency in the media and from some Labour MP's. Labour actually did a lot better than was forecast. His supporters, quite rightly, ask the question, how much better would Labour had done in those elections had some Labour MP's not been busy sowing the seeds of the revolt?
Yes, Labour should be higher in the polls than 29% but in view of the open revolt that has been underway, then that is hardly surprising. And the majority of party members don't lay the blame for this at Corbyn's door, they fairly and squarely blame those who have been plotting against him, seemingly almost from the day he was eelcted in some cases.
Mr. Divvie, I have more sympathy with that argument on the EU than Trident. Trident being renewed is not unexpected.
Who said it was unexpected? The SNP have had removal of nuclear weapons in their manifestos since nineteen canteen, and at the last Holyrood election were given the strongest mandate of any governing party in Western Europe. What other methods would would you suggest to Scottish voters for getting rid of nuclear weapons on Scottish soil?
Mr. Urquhart, I'd guess the older assaults are mostly those with dementia.
Mr. Bedfordshire, point of order: the Chinese/Japanese island dispute is for a set of islands between the two countries, currently in Japanese hands. The South China Sea dispute involves many countries but I don't think Japan's one of them.
Mr. Divvie, didn't the SNP lost seats at Holyrood? A clear first, of course, but the Conservatives have a larger majority in Westminster. And Scots voted to remain in the UK.
If Scots were genuinely outraged en mass about nuclear weapons rather than being pretty evenly split, they could've and would've voted for independence.
Mr. Mark, actually, Scotland and Yorkshire have roughly the same size economies and populations.
A Scotsman and a Yorkshireman walk into a pub. Six days later, they drop dead, after neither would relent and offer to buy the first pint.
Mr. Divvie, I have more sympathy with that argument on the EU than Trident. Trident being renewed is not unexpected. For that matter, the Scots are fairly evenly split on it [in stark contrast to their MPs].
Mr. W, what a modest chap you are
Mr. M, Yorkshire isn't a small region. It's a large county. And it must be good, because it's God's. [Kind words of yours on the numbers].
Mr. Jonathan, not if you're Turkish.
Mr Dancer, my family live in North Yorkshire. I bow to no man in my love for God's county. However, it's large in size, scanty in population (which was my original point).
The situation for an SPD 2 especially in relation to the Lib Dems is very different from the situation in the 1980s. Many Labour MPs would be standing in areas where the LDs now have some organisation, like Hull, Newcastle, Bristol and London. A different picture. I expect David Lammy to be the first.to move.
As far as I can tell he suffered from the insuperable arrogance and enthusiastic desire for treasonous colloboration with the French that all the Stuarts did.
Ghastly dynasty.
I see we have another candidate for a PB cull ....
[On a more serious note, it's 'the Sixth' because in the Bible seven represents the perfection of God and in the parable where Jesus turns water into wine, the water of men is kept in six jars, signifying that humanity is inferior to divinity. Thaddeus was also chosen because he's my favourite disciple].
JackW VIII thanks you ....
Edit .. My avatar is James VIII of Scotland.
I believe from the little I've read about him that the UK may have missed out on one of their better kings in James VIII/III
His son was a bit of a plonker, though.
Cough .... splutter .....
Listen here Del Boy .... neither Charles III or Henry IX may be described in such terms .... else I shall be extending participation in Auchentennach Fine Pies outside of the strict confines of the Liberal Democrats !!
Henry seemed to be a sensible sort of chap, if one can describe a Catholic priest in such terms.
LOL...I do wonder how some people remember breath.
Well, how many of us middle aged folks remember the 30s, 40s and 50s? Remember, in 2020 there will be voters who were born after 9/11. Tempus fugit.
That's a fair point, although as much as right and left bang on about Thatcher, you'd think she was PM only a few years ago.
She's counted as a man?
It was a fair point that people know little about politics from decades ago. This one would be a particularly bone headed example, but the principle is sound someone young in a few years might not know about Thatcher.
Totally O/t, but, apart from the chance of making a quick buck at the expense of the public, why does Stansted Airport charge for dropping off a passenger. AFAIK very few other airports do; none of those I use, anyway.
Luton does.
you can drop people off at the mid-stay (to get on the bus) for free at Stansted
Absolutely agree that Labour needs a renewal to work out what it is for. Ed Miliband made a start on this IMO and that's why the Tories nicked the best bits of his ideas.
The Corbynistas don't seem to have recognised that the folks in power will always nick the best bits of your ideas. The rest of your ideas? They will use their platform of authority to lampoon as utterly barking. Like nuclear subs with no nuclear missiles. Point and laugh.
Which is why power is a thing you really can't dispense with...
Well said. Grown up politics is recognising that your side doesn't have a monopoly on good ideas.
One day Labour will get over its hysteria about the NHS. The Tories have been in power for 42 years since it was founded. I think they'd have killed it by now if they wanted to. I'll be more interested in Labour once they stop sloganising on such topics.
That said, It will be interesting to see if May co-opts some of the sensible Labour backbenchers to work on Brexit.
Mr. Cide, a cynic might say May promoted a woman who wouldn't be a threat to her...
Can't be. She sacked Morgan.
Admittedly there is 'not a threat' and 'not capable of doing a job', but she also promoted Boris, who is a threat and is incompetent anyway.
It may be she genuinely believes Rudd is the right person to run the Home Office and in fairness looking a t the Cabinet it's unlikely anyone will do as well as May has.
... Someone within Labour needs to sit down and do some thinking about what a social democratic/centre left party should be in the 21st century. When they've done that they can think about challenges and all the rest of it. At the moment they're arse over tip.
Quite agree. They can start by reading Roberts article from yesterday and working out how to share the proceeds of globalisation in a more equitable fashion.
One day Labour will get over its hysteria about the NHS. The Tories have been in power for 42 years since it was founded. I think they'd have killed it by now if they wanted to.
Plus they are about to give it an extra £350m a week...
Of the many well connected posters on pb.com, have we any who know what might happen in "moderate" Labour if Corbyn wins again?
I glean that the bulk of the PLP will be prepared to do enough to be recognised as the parliamentary opposition with a LOTO of their choosing.
The difference with 1981 though is that the vast majority of the PLP dissidents are profoundly sad at the turn of events and trying their best not to walk away from the Labour Party, whereas the Gang of Four were all too keen to stick the knife in as they jumped with glee.
"On average, incomes rose by 2 per cent in real terms between 2007/08 and 2014/15, according to the IFS. However, that figure concealed very different experiences for different generations including: incomes for those aged over 60 rose by 11 per cent over the period, when measured before housing costs, and those aged 31 to 59 have had no change in incomes. But incomes for those aged 22 to 30 have fallen by 7 per cent."
And ridiculously that survey EXCLUDES housing costs, which are surely the greatest source of disparity in outgoings between oldies and youngsters.
oldies bought their houses for about £5000 in the late 60s or early 70s, youngsters are paying £1350 a month rent.
@Casino_Royale - I saw Nus Ghani on the Friday that the referendum results were announced, and as promised I gave her a kiss and a hug on your behalf! (Well, on my behalf mainly...).
She was still very upset by the Jo Cox murder - they'd worked closely together and got on very well. What's very disturbing is that MPs are getting a lot of nasty threats and hate mail, especially women MPs, and even more especially Nus as a muslim woman.
Jealous! You smooth criminal.. ;-)
Yes, it is deeply worrying and has been going on for a very long time. There are some truly sick, disturbed and angry people out there.
Thank you Mr Dancer. Have been a long-time lurker and enjoy the discussions, although I fear that my views and political persuasions are so far removed from the bulk of the site membership that it would take too much time and energy to battle against the tide.
Riddle me this: Three years ago a maritime surveillance system was introduced in to RN service and it was described by the then Conservative Defence Secretary as “crucial” and “game-changing”. In the succeeding period it has been used, by all accounts to good effect, in the Caribbean, the Med and the Indian Ocean. It is now to be scrapped by another Conservative Defence Minister because HMG cannot afford the £20million a year necessary to keep it in service.
The chap who described the system as "Crucial" is the very same chap who now says we cannot afford it. Step forward our new Chancellor of the Exchequer, the schizophrenic, Philip Hammond.
I read the Times today, looked at the Mail and Telegraph - and there was no fun at all. We've enjoyed an all-you-can-eat buffet for weeks.
The Telegraph online is becoming less and less like a proper news presence. This morning on the front page they have an article about Pippa Middleton possibly being engaged to some bloke yet to find a report on yesterday's Trident debate I had to go rummaging in the depths of the politics section two levels down.
The Telegraph online is morphing into the Daily Mail, celebrity gossip backed up with poorly written articles, that have clearly never been proof read led alone subject to a proper sub-editor. If it wasn't for Herself's addiction to the crossword in the print paper (which is still sometimes half-decent) I would have cancelled my subscription long ago.
I only paid for a DT subscription to see the Opinion, Animal Pix and Weird News sections. All three are shadows of their former selves and I won't bother to renew. What a great pity. I could waste a hour or so a day - now I go there for a brief surf and maybe stay for 20mins tops.
The Times comment section has failed today and that's boring without the feedback/debate. I hope this isn't some IT decision to dump them. It's 90% of the reason I subscribe.
Just like any electorate, they don't like being told they got it wrong and asked to vote again. At least not without a polite interval and some very good reasons.
In fairness to Labour MPs, they have actually provided some good reasons, though the memebers seem to disagree.
The problem is that the rebel Labour MP's really HAVEN'T provided some good reasons to satisfy party members who supported Corbyn 10 months ago.
What those party members are hearing from Labour MP's is that a a large number have been openly critical of him since the day he was elected and have undermined him at every turn and opportunity. The media has joined in, what is perceived by members to be a witch-hunt, quoting Labour MP's criticisms and saying that Corbyn is unelectable. The Labour MP's are now saying that their lack of confidence and support for Corbyn is justified because Labour are performing badly.
Corbyn's in the party membership are saying, quite justifiably, that he was never given a fair chance by his own MP's from the outset, that he was entitled to receive solidarity and support from them, as he was fairly, emphatically and democratically elected by the membership. They accept that not all Labour MP's share his views, but CANNOT accept that it is fair and right to show such open opposition and in some cases derision to a leader supported by almost 60% of the membership, since day one.
His supporters point out that he has won every one of the 4 by-elections he has faced, increasing the Labour share of the vote in 3 of them. They also point out that in the loical council elections, despite all the predictions of gloom and despondency in the media and from some Labour MP's. Labour actually did a lot better than was forecast. His supporters, quite rightly, ask the question, how much better would Labour had done in those elections had some Labour MP's not been busy sowing the seeds of the revolt?
Yes, Labour should be higher in the polls than 29% but in view of the open revolt that has been underway, then that is hardly surprising. And the majority of party members don't lay the blame for this at Corbyn's door, they fairly and squarely blame those who have been plotting against him, seemingly almost from the day he was eelcted in some cases.
Thank you Mr Dancer. Have been a long-time lurker and enjoy the discussions, although I fear that my views and political persuasions are so far removed from the bulk of the site membership that it would take too much time and energy to battle against the tide.
Not at all, it's very good to get different viewpoints. I thought your debut post was excellent and informative.
Thank you Mr Dancer. Have been a long-time lurker and enjoy the discussions, although I fear that my views and political persuasions are so far removed from the bulk of the site membership that it would take too much time and energy to battle against the tide.
'At least we're not the British Labour party!' Republican grandee Newt Gingrich jokes at Jeremy Corbyn's expense as he's asked about internal dissent against Trump
I read the Times today, looked at the Mail and Telegraph - and there was no fun at all. We've enjoyed an all-you-can-eat buffet for weeks.
The Telegraph online is becoming less and less like a proper news presence. This morning on the front page they have an article about Pippa Middleton possibly being engaged to some bloke yet to find a report on yesterday's Trident debate I had to go rummaging in the depths of the politics section two levels down.
The Telegraph online is morphing into the Daily Mail, celebrity gossip backed up with poorly written articles, that have clearly never been proof read led alone subject to a proper sub-editor. If it wasn't for Herself's addiction to the crossword in the print paper (which is still sometimes half-decent) I would have cancelled my subscription long ago.
I only paid for a DT subscription to see the Opinion, Animal Pix and Weird News sections. All three are shadows of their former selves and I won't bother to renew. What a great pity. I could waste a hour or so a day - now I go there for a brief surf and maybe stay for 20mins tops.
The Times comment section has failed today and that's boring without the feedback/debate. I hope this isn't some IT decision to dump them. It's 90% of the reason I subscribe.
I'm with you on the comments. They show that all media is just an opinion, and a rare one at that. The Guardian comments show the paper is completely out of kilter with the left leaning public. And that's why they were all surprised Leave won the Ref; The establishment including the media are out of touch, Comments is where it is at and worth a read.
Mr. Cide, a cynic might say May promoted a woman who wouldn't be a threat to her...
I can see the logic behind your observation (I presume you're the cynic referred to). TM's gone as deep as she can without making it blindingly obvious what she's up to.
"On average, incomes rose by 2 per cent in real terms between 2007/08 and 2014/15, according to the IFS. However, that figure concealed very different experiences for different generations including: incomes for those aged over 60 rose by 11 per cent over the period, when measured before housing costs, and those aged 31 to 59 have had no change in incomes. But incomes for those aged 22 to 30 have fallen by 7 per cent."
And ridiculously that survey EXCLUDES housing costs, which are surely the greatest source of disparity in outgoings between oldies and youngsters.
oldies bought their houses for about £5000 in the late 60s or early 70s, youngsters are paying £1350 a month rent.
Hey kids - get out and vote!
Slightly hyperbolic. We paid about 170k for our house (in the provinces) ~20 years ago. I'm not yet 60, but it's probably a more realistic figure.
Of the many well connected posters on pb.com, have we any who know what might happen in "moderate" Labour if Corbyn wins again?
I glean that the bulk of the PLP will be prepared to do enough to be recognised as the parliamentary opposition with a LOTO of their choosing.
The difference with 1981 though is that the vast majority of the PLP dissidents are profoundly sad at the turn of events and trying their best not to walk away from the Labour Party, whereas the Gang of Four were all too keen to stick the knife in as they jumped with glee.
If they do that, they are walking away from the Labour party.
The situation for an SPD 2 especially in relation to the Lib Dems is very different from the situation in the 1980s. Many Labour MPs would be standing in areas where the LDs now have some organisation, like Hull, Newcastle, Bristol and London. A different picture. I expect David Lammy to be the first.to move.
Labour would have to be really, really, really, really stupid rather than just really, really stupid as normal to split. They would lose councils, maybe Mayoralties, have 2 parties with no money and be useless in parliament. As a Tory I say, bring it on. But they really are dumb. Can they become dummer?
Riddle me this: Three years ago a maritime surveillance system was introduced in to RN service and it was described by the then Conservative Defence Secretary as “crucial” and “game-changing”. In the succeeding period it has been used, by all accounts to good effect, in the Caribbean, the Med and the Indian Ocean. It is now to be scrapped by another Conservative Defence Minister because HMG cannot afford the £20million a year necessary to keep it in service.
The chap who described the system as "Crucial" is the very same chap who now says we cannot afford it. Step forward our new Chancellor of the Exchequer, the schizophrenic, Philip Hammond.
One day Labour will get over its hysteria about the NHS. The Tories have been in power for 42 years since it was founded. I think they'd have killed it by now if they wanted to.
Plus they are about to give it an extra £350m a week...
Thatcher, or possibly her mentors, like the Mad Monk, wanted to kill it off. I don't believe any other past Tory PMs have. As yet, May is an unknown quantity.
But but but but the SNP doesn't like it therefore every single person in Scotland doesn't like it.
Isn't that how Scotland works?
It's certainly how the SNP works
More a reflection of first past the post tbh.
They made a big thing of saying the SNP won Argyll and Bute but failed to mention that they didn't win over 50% of the vote in that constituency (though I'm not sure what the views of the other candidates were on Trident).
Smith has given an interview saying he's " normal " and cites his wife and three children as evidence of this. Can I hear a Dog Whistle ?
TBH, I think this is all nitpicking hoopla - just as I did with Leadsom. I heard the Owen intv and his was trying to say that he was an ordinary bloke, not some hardline anorak. The obsession journalists and the Left has with identity politics is just silly IMO.
It's fine for Angela Eagle to talk about being a woman or being gay - but saying you're a 'normal bloke with kids' is somehow a veiled dog whistle to bigots.
Oh ! I thought Leadsom was a rare example of the outrage being justified. My reading of the transcript was it was fairly crass stuff. But crucially the worst stuff came straight after her saying how horrible it would be to raise the issue. Smith is much more subjective I agree. However if your triangulating between Corbyn and a Lesbian without children I think you have to accept some folk may hear a lot in " normal " if framed via wife and kids.
I'm pretty relaxed about all this stuff 90% of the time. I thought the Times attempts to wreck Crabb's marriage over a flirty texts was just low. He'd already stood aside in the contest and it added nothing. I have a lower opinion of the young lady who went to the press over it. It's a matter for Mrs Crabb to deal with.
Disagree there. Crabb was exposed as a shaloow hypocrite. The lady concerned did the public a favour.
Mr. Divvie, I have more sympathy with that argument on the EU than Trident. Trident being renewed is not unexpected.
Who said it was unexpected? The SNP have had removal of nuclear weapons in their manifestos since nineteen canteen, and at the last Holyrood election were given the strongest mandate of any governing party in Western Europe. What other methods would would you suggest to Scottish voters for getting rid of nuclear weapons on Scottish soil?
Independence is of course the only option. What are they waiting for?
Thank you Mr Dancer. Have been a long-time lurker and enjoy the discussions, although I fear that my views and political persuasions are so far removed from the bulk of the site membership that it would take too much time and energy to battle against the tide.
Welcome aboard Mr Bug. We all have our little corners to fight
Of the many well connected posters on pb.com, have we any who know what might happen in "moderate" Labour if Corbyn wins again?
Are we really looking at a split, an SDP mark 2, something like that?
It's hard to see how the bulk of Labour MPs who are actually interested, er, in being in power, will just sit on their hands and accept the result. Surely something will have to give?
From the outside looking in it would seem clear that a split is surely the only option. But I am not so sure it will happen. There are very specific reasons for this. I am mulling a piece on it. But I refer PB readers to this speech by Hugh Gaitskill:
"We may lose the vote today, and the result may deal this party a grave blow. It may not be possible to prevent it, but there are some of us, I think many of us, who will not accept that this blow need be mortal: who will not believe that such an end is inevitable. There are some of us who will fight, and fight, and fight again, to save the party we love. We will fight, and fight, and fight again, to bring back sanity and honesty and dignity, so that our party – with its great past – may retain its glory and its greatness."
I remember that from when I was a nipper - but who on earth has his kind of stature in the current crop?
Huzzah for George, I think modesty prevented him for mentioning it was he who brought in the national living wage
It was a Conservative, William Wilberforce, who ended the slave trade.
It was a Conservative, Edward Stanley, who then abolished slavery itself.
It was a Conservative, the Earl of Shaftesbury, who promoted the Factory Acts that limited working hours and banned the employment of young children.
It was a Conservative, Lord Salisbury, who introduced free elementary education.
It was Conservatives in government who extended the franchise to working men, and then a Conservative, Stanley Baldwin, that ensured equal votes for women.
It was a Conservative, Rab Butler, who legislated for universal state education.
It was a Conservative, Margaret Thatcher, who gave people the right to buy their council homes.
It was a Conservative, John Major, and his junior minister William Hague, who introduced the landmark Disability Discrimination Act.
And it was a Conservative, David Cameron, who introduced equal marriage.
Why aren’t we prouder of this record as a party? Why don’t we shout it from the rooftops?
It’s made our society stronger and fairer and better.
It’s been the all-too-well kept secret of our political success.
Riddle me this: Three years ago a maritime surveillance system was introduced in to RN service and it was described by the then Conservative Defence Secretary as “crucial” and “game-changing”. In the succeeding period it has been used, by all accounts to good effect, in the Caribbean, the Med and the Indian Ocean. It is now to be scrapped by another Conservative Defence Minister because HMG cannot afford the £20million a year necessary to keep it in service.
The chap who described the system as "Crucial" is the very same chap who now says we cannot afford it. Step forward our new Chancellor of the Exchequer, the schizophrenic, Philip Hammond.
He is a mere amateur, Mr Llama.
In 1964 the Home Secretary turned down a request to reopen a criminal case, despite an impassioned plea in 1963 by the criminal's MP, Sir Frank Soskice. The Home Secretary said it was not in the public interest to pursue it further.
Of course, there had been a change of government in the meanwhile, and Wilson was now in charge. And curiously the person whom he had appointed Home Secretary, and therefore the man who rejected Soskice's impassioned plea - was Sir Frank Soskice.
Thank you Mr Dancer. Have been a long-time lurker and enjoy the discussions, although I fear that my views and political persuasions are so far removed from the bulk of the site membership that it would take too much time and energy to battle against the tide.
Mr. G.,
I'll echo Mr. Dancer's welcome and I hope you will post regularly in the future. There is no need to battle against the tide. The majority of the posters on here have, when it comes to politics, minds like concrete - all mixed up and permanently set. Just say what you want to say and then those of us who come to look for an alternative, but intelligent view (which by your post below you are likely to provide) can benefit.
P.S. Where do you stand on the other important things discussed on this site? Namely but not exclusively, classical history, cricket, pirates, trains, engineering, footer, Scottish Independence, whisky/whiskey, Sunil's Mum's chances in the Redbridge in Bloom Competition.
Alas, most of Turkey was under the Sultan's sway then.
Edited extra bit: just being a pedant [if clarification were needed], that really was a rather nice line.
Well, yes, but the Nicaean Empire, the Seljuk Empire and the Latin Empire were much less well known and therefore not suitable for my attempt at a punchline.
It's not often my humour comes off, so I'll take it!
... Someone within Labour needs to sit down and do some thinking about what a social democratic/centre left party should be in the 21st century. When they've done that they can think about challenges and all the rest of it. At the moment they're arse over tip.
Quite agree. They can start by reading Roberts article from yesterday and working out how to share the proceeds of globalisation in a more equitable fashion.
Exactly. They need to drop the culture wars I.e I want to be leader because I am a woman, and start thinking about radical policies to upskill the unskilled. Oh and a real industrial strategy in Britain is badly needed, this doesn't mean picking winners and losers it means when important companies like ARM are bought we hold them to account about the promises they make.
Also intergration after they encouraged state backed multiculturalism.
The problem is that the rebel Labour MP's really HAVEN'T provided some good reasons to satisfy party members who supported Corbyn 10 months ago.
What those party members are hearing from Labour MP's is that a a large number have been openly critical of him since the day he was elected and have undermined him at every turn and opportunity. The media has joined in, what is perceived by members to be a witch-hunt, quoting Labour MP's criticisms and saying that Corbyn is unelectable. The Labour MP's are now saying that their lack of confidence and support for Corbyn is justified because Labour are performing badly.
Corbyn's in the party membership are saying, quite justifiably, that he was never given a fair chance by his own MP's from the outset, that he was entitled to receive solidarity and support from them, as he was fairly, emphatically and democratically elected by the membership. They accept that not all Labour MP's share his views, but CANNOT accept that it is fair and right to show such open opposition and in some cases derision to a leader supported by almost 60% of the membership, since day one.
His supporters point out that he has won every one of the 4 by-elections he has faced, increasing the Labour share of the vote in 3 of them. They also point out that in the loical council elections, despite all the predictions of gloom and despondency in the media and from some Labour MP's. Labour actually did a lot better than was forecast. His supporters, quite rightly, ask the question, how much better would Labour had done in those elections had some Labour MP's not been busy sowing the seeds of the revolt?
Yes, Labour should be higher in the polls than 29% but in view of the open revolt that has been underway, then that is hardly surprising. And the majority of party members don't lay the blame for this at Corbyn's door, they fairly and squarely blame those who have been plotting against him, seemingly almost from the day he was eelcted in some cases.
No, the majority of Labour MPs are saying they have no confidence in him because he is not capable of leading a political party. He does not feel bound by collective responsibility and he has made policy decisions without consulting the shadow cabinet.
The day after the EU referendum he said that Article 50 should be invoked immediately. That was an absolutely extraordinary statement. Yesterday, he stood up as Labour leader in Parliament and argued against Conference-endorsed party policy. That is literally unprecedented.
One thing that is helping Corbyn is that May has ruled out an early general election. If that was a real prospect then the whole climate would be more frenzied.
Well, yes, that's why she "ruled it out". But it might well happen anyway. For example, it would be quite something if ongoing the electoral fraud inquiries prompted so many by-elections that a General Election became a good option for essentially resetting the Parliament.
Mr. Llama, that defence issue you raise sounds bloody moronic. Call defending other parts of the world foreign aid, and shuffle the finding into the cretinous overseas aid budget. [The 0.7% target remains daft as a brush, but considerably more expensive].
Mr. BudG, attack? Unlikely.
But then, a ship in harbour is safe. But that is not what ships are for.
These are the people who support Corbyn apparently
@MrHarryCole: Grim: "We are watching you, have noted your actions as traitors to Labour and your time as a Labour MP is numbered." https://t.co/rrjyc9hkHF
"There have been claims that Smith is ahead of Eagle, but Eagle’s allies insist this is wrong. They say they have had tellers outside the PLP office today and that Smith and Eagle are neck and neck in terms of nominations." The Guardian
Brilliant, a dead heat. Challenger to Corbyn to be decided by toss of a coin. You couldn't make it up.
Alas, most of Turkey was under the Sultan's sway then.
Edited extra bit: just being a pedant [if clarification were needed], that really was a rather nice line.
Well, yes, but the Nicaean Empire, the Seljuk Empire and the Latin Empire were much less well known and therefore not suitable for my attempt at a punchline.
It's not often my humour comes off, so I'll take it!
Ah PB, where wit and humour come to die under the withering onslaught of pedantry. There really is no site like it.
@BudG It's quite civilised, though I always laugh at the idea that anyone from the hard right is here. It's mostly sopping wet Tories and rich metropolitan liberals. In the ten years I've been here I've yet to see a call for the death penalty, return of corporal punishment in schools or deportation of mus-, well not since yesterday at least.
... Someone within Labour needs to sit down and do some thinking about what a social democratic/centre left party should be in the 21st century. When they've done that they can think about challenges and all the rest of it. At the moment they're arse over tip.
Quite agree. They can start by reading Roberts article from yesterday and working out how to share the proceeds of globalisation in a more equitable fashion.
Exactly. They need to drop the culture wars I.e I want to be leader because I am a woman, and start thinking about radical policies to upskill the unskilled. Oh and a real industrial strategy in Britain is badly needed, this doesn't mean picking winners and losers it means when important companies like ARM are bought we hold them to account about the promises they make.
Also intergration after they encouraged state backed multiculturalism.
To be fair to Owen Smith, his pitch at his launch was precisely about the need for specific policies to go with the vague rhetoric.
"There have been claims that Smith is ahead of Eagle, but Eagle’s allies insist this is wrong. They say they have had tellers outside the PLP office today and that Smith and Eagle are neck and neck in terms of nominations." The Guardian
Brilliant, a dead heat. Challenger to Corbyn to be decided by toss of a coin. You couldn't make it up.
I expect that Smith is actually ahead and it is the usual journalistic guff of the race being "too tight"...
Sounds like the Govt is having a tough time so far at the Art 50 hearing. Complaints about the timetable for submitting legal arguments ahead of the hearing in October (ministers having summer hols disrupted etc), the lack of certainty from the PM/Govt about when Art 50 will or will not be triggered by, and a suggestion that it will "leapfrog" the Court of Appeal to the Supreme Court - but will not be heard there before December.
Judicial wheels moving quickly by UK court standards, but this will not be concluded as rapidly as some may have thought. I would be most amused if some element of this requires a reference to the European Court....
@BudG It's quite civilised here, though I always laugh at the idea that anyone from the hard right is here. It's mostly sopping wet Tories and rich metropolitan liberals. In the ten years I've been here I've yet to see a call for the death penalty, return of corporal punishment in schools or deportation of mus-, well not since yesterday at least.
And of course SeanT funded Labour at the last election...
Thank you Mr Dancer. Have been a long-time lurker and enjoy the discussions, although I fear that my views and political persuasions are so far removed from the bulk of the site membership that it would take too much time and energy to battle against the tide.
Mr. G.,
I'll echo Mr. Dancer's welcome and I hope you will post regularly in the future. There is no need to battle against the tide. The majority of the posters on here have, when it comes to politics, minds like concrete - all mixed up and permanently set. Just say what you want to say and then those of us who come to look for an alternative, but intelligent view (which by your post below you are likely to provide) can benefit.
P.S. Where do you stand on the other important things discussed on this site? Namely but not exclusively, classical history, cricket, pirates, trains, engineering, footer, Scottish Independence, whisky/whiskey, Sunil's Mum's chances in the Redbridge in Bloom Competition.
That's what I read about Ms Truss - she's not a lawyer
Neither were her immediate predecessors
Since it became Justice and moved to the commons, isn't Clarke the only lawyer who has held the office?
Nope. Jack Straw was also a lawyer.
So he was. Didn't know that. Presumably he made a much better fist of his time at the bar than he did if the case for the Iraq war, or he would have starved.
The problem is that the rebel Labour MP's really HAVEN'T provided some good reasons to satisfy party members who supported Corbyn 10 months ago.
The YouGov poll shows that they have provided enough to satisfu party members of 14 months ago, but not those of 10 months ago.
Ed Miliband, look on your works and despair.
Indeed. The activists know the score (well, enough of them do - Corbyn still polls strongly with even them) but the fan club remains an insuperable obstacle for Eagle/Smith for now.
Of the many well connected posters on pb.com, have we any who know what might happen in "moderate" Labour if Corbyn wins again?
Are we really looking at a split, an SDP mark 2, something like that?
It's hard to see how the bulk of Labour MPs who are actually interested, er, in being in power, will just sit on their hands and accept the result. Surely something will have to give?
From the outside looking in it would seem clear that a split is surely the only option. But I am not so sure it will happen. There are very specific reasons for this. I am mulling a piece on it. But I refer PB readers to this speech by Hugh Gaitskill:
"We may lose the vote today, and the result may deal this party a grave blow. It may not be possible to prevent it, but there are some of us, I think many of us, who will not accept that this blow need be mortal: who will not believe that such an end is inevitable. There are some of us who will fight, and fight, and fight again, to save the party we love. We will fight, and fight, and fight again, to bring back sanity and honesty and dignity, so that our party – with its great past – may retain its glory and its greatness."
I remember that from when I was a nipper - but who on earth has his kind of stature in the current crop?
The point is that the Labour MPs care as deeply about the Labour party as Gaitskill did back then. It's a visceral thing. At times it can be a huge strength for Labour, but at other times - such as now - it can be a huge weakness. I do not expect anyone who does not "feel" Labour to understand this and I accept that it is absolutely ridiculous, but it is what it is.
When Tory MPs speak of love in their speeches they speak of love for country. When Labour politicians speak of it they are far more likely to reference Labour. Think of it this way, for a Labour MP to walk away from the Labour party is as hard as it is for a Tory MP to walk away from his/her country.
Of the many well connected posters on pb.com, have we any who know what might happen in "moderate" Labour if Corbyn wins again?
I glean that the bulk of the PLP will be prepared to do enough to be recognised as the parliamentary opposition with a LOTO of their choosing.
The difference with 1981 though is that the vast majority of the PLP dissidents are profoundly sad at the turn of events and trying their best not to walk away from the Labour Party, whereas the Gang of Four were all too keen to stick the knife in as they jumped with glee.
If they do that, they are walking away from the Labour party.
Or inviting being booted out. But you're right: whether they're pushed or whether they choose to jump, the end result is a schism.
Comments
Listen here Del Boy .... neither Charles III or Henry IX may be described in such terms .... else I shall be extending participation in Auchentennach Fine Pies outside of the strict confines of the Liberal Democrats !!
She was still very upset by the Jo Cox murder - they'd worked closely together and got on very well. What's very disturbing is that MPs are getting a lot of nasty threats and hate mail, especially women MPs, and even more especially Nus as a muslim woman.
What those party members are hearing from Labour MP's is that a a large number have been openly critical of him since the day he was elected and have undermined him at every turn and opportunity. The media has joined in, what is perceived by members to be a witch-hunt, quoting Labour MP's criticisms and saying that Corbyn is unelectable. The Labour MP's are now saying that their lack of confidence and support for Corbyn is justified because Labour are performing badly.
Corbyn's in the party membership are saying, quite justifiably, that he was never given a fair chance by his own MP's from the outset, that he was entitled to receive solidarity and support from them, as he was fairly, emphatically and democratically elected by the membership. They accept that not all Labour MP's share his views, but CANNOT accept that it is fair and right to show such open opposition and in some cases derision to a leader supported by almost 60% of the membership, since day one.
His supporters point out that he has won every one of the 4 by-elections he has faced, increasing the Labour share of the vote in 3 of them. They also point out that in the loical council elections, despite all the predictions of gloom and despondency in the media and from some Labour MP's. Labour actually did a lot better than was forecast. His supporters, quite rightly, ask the question, how much better would Labour had done in those elections had some Labour MP's not been busy sowing the seeds of the revolt?
Yes, Labour should be higher in the polls than 29% but in view of the open revolt that has been underway, then that is hardly surprising. And the majority of party members don't lay the blame for this at Corbyn's door, they fairly and squarely blame those who have been plotting against him, seemingly almost from the day he was eelcted in some cases.
Mr. Bedfordshire, point of order: the Chinese/Japanese island dispute is for a set of islands between the two countries, currently in Japanese hands. The South China Sea dispute involves many countries but I don't think Japan's one of them.
Mr. Divvie, didn't the SNP lost seats at Holyrood? A clear first, of course, but the Conservatives have a larger majority in Westminster. And Scots voted to remain in the UK.
If Scots were genuinely outraged en mass about nuclear weapons rather than being pretty evenly split, they could've and would've voted for independence.
Mr. Mark, actually, Scotland and Yorkshire have roughly the same size economies and populations.
A Scotsman and a Yorkshireman walk into a pub. Six days later, they drop dead, after neither would relent and offer to buy the first pint.
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-trident-be-scrapped-or-maintained#line
Not thought to be terrorism. Family dispute suspected.
Mr. Cide, a cynic might say May promoted a woman who wouldn't be a threat to her...
you can drop people off at the mid-stay (to get on the bus) for free at Stansted
I've probably closed 40 or 50 pages of linked worthy analysis without reading a pixel as they're overtaken by events.
Mr. Doethur, obviously not good news, but I imagine there'll be relief if it isn't terrorism.
One day Labour will get over its hysteria about the NHS. The Tories have been in power for 42 years since it was founded. I think they'd have killed it by now if they wanted to. I'll be more interested in Labour once they stop sloganising on such topics.
That said, It will be interesting to see if May co-opts some of the sensible Labour backbenchers to work on Brexit.
Admittedly there is 'not a threat' and 'not capable of doing a job', but she also promoted Boris, who is a threat and is incompetent anyway.
It may be she genuinely believes Rudd is the right person to run the Home Office and in fairness looking a t the Cabinet it's unlikely anyone will do as well as May has.
The difference with 1981 though is that the vast majority of the PLP dissidents are profoundly sad at the turn of events and trying their best not to walk away from the Labour Party, whereas the Gang of Four were all too keen to stick the knife in as they jumped with glee.
I know if it looks too good to be true ........
oldies bought their houses for about £5000 in the late 60s or early 70s, youngsters are paying £1350 a month rent.
Hey kids - get out and vote!
Yes, it is deeply worrying and has been going on for a very long time. There are some truly sick, disturbed and angry people out there.
The chap who described the system as "Crucial" is the very same chap who now says we cannot afford it. Step forward our new Chancellor of the Exchequer, the schizophrenic, Philip Hammond.
The Times comment section has failed today and that's boring without the feedback/debate. I hope this isn't some IT decision to dump them. It's 90% of the reason I subscribe.
Ed Miliband, look on your works and despair.
Curious what you think the "political persuasions of the bulk of the site membership" are?
Only way so far as I can see to remove Corbyn from LOTO position. Of course he would still be Labour leader.
No, I'm not dyslexic ....
Welcome.
Isn't that how Scotland works?
'At least we're not the British Labour party!' Republican grandee Newt Gingrich jokes at Jeremy Corbyn's expense as he's asked about internal dissent against Trump
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3697150/At-not-British-Labour-party-Republican-grandee-Newt-Gingrich-jokes-Jeremy-Corbyn-s-expense-s-asked-internal-dissent-against-Trump.html#ixzz4EqlRqDw1
Mr. Doethur, *cough* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Empire
Alas, most of Turkey was under the Sultan's sway then.
Edited extra bit: just being a pedant [if clarification were needed], that really was a rather nice line.
Hi
Curious what you think the "political persuasions of the bulk of the site membership" are?
Probably 80-85% Conservative with a sprinkling of those of other persuasions, I would say.
Oh.. and SeanT, who is all over the place at times.
CNUT ....
No, I'm not dyslexic ....
Welcome.
Thank you for the warm welcome. (I AM dyslexic, so was able to understand your message)
It's her job to face down attempts by the HO et al from pushing stuff through that alters the balance of power.
She's not up to the task IMO.
Miss Plato, we'll see. Truss does, at least, appear superior to Morgan [may be damning with faint praise but I think Education's in better hands now].
It was a Conservative, William Wilberforce, who ended the slave trade.
It was a Conservative, Edward Stanley, who then abolished slavery itself.
It was a Conservative, the Earl of Shaftesbury, who promoted the Factory Acts that limited working hours and banned the employment of young children.
It was a Conservative, Lord Salisbury, who introduced free elementary education.
It was Conservatives in government who extended the franchise to working men, and then a Conservative, Stanley Baldwin, that ensured equal votes for women.
It was a Conservative, Rab Butler, who legislated for universal state education.
It was a Conservative, Margaret Thatcher, who gave people the right to buy their council homes.
It was a Conservative, John Major, and his junior minister William Hague, who introduced the landmark Disability Discrimination Act.
And it was a Conservative, David Cameron, who introduced equal marriage.
Why aren’t we prouder of this record as a party? Why don’t we shout it from the rooftops?
It’s made our society stronger and fairer and better.
It’s been the all-too-well kept secret of our political success.
http://www.cps.org.uk/about/news/q/date/2016/07/18/margaret-thatcher-lecture-2016-rt-hon-george-osborne-mp/
In 1964 the Home Secretary turned down a request to reopen a criminal case, despite an impassioned plea in 1963 by the criminal's MP, Sir Frank Soskice. The Home Secretary said it was not in the public interest to pursue it further.
Of course, there had been a change of government in the meanwhile, and Wilson was now in charge. And curiously the person whom he had appointed Home Secretary, and therefore the man who rejected Soskice's impassioned plea - was Sir Frank Soskice.
I'll echo Mr. Dancer's welcome and I hope you will post regularly in the future. There is no need to battle against the tide. The majority of the posters on here have, when it comes to politics, minds like concrete - all mixed up and permanently set. Just say what you want to say and then those of us who come to look for an alternative, but intelligent view (which by your post below you are likely to provide) can benefit.
P.S. Where do you stand on the other important things discussed on this site? Namely but not exclusively, classical history, cricket, pirates, trains, engineering, footer, Scottish Independence, whisky/whiskey, Sunil's Mum's chances in the Redbridge in Bloom Competition.
It's not often my humour comes off, so I'll take it!
Also intergration after they encouraged state backed multiculturalism.
The day after the EU referendum he said that Article 50 should be invoked immediately. That was an absolutely extraordinary statement. Yesterday, he stood up as Labour leader in Parliament and argued against Conference-endorsed party policy. That is literally unprecedented.
One thing that is helping Corbyn is that May has ruled out an early general election. If that was a real prospect then the whole climate would be more frenzied.
Well, yes, that's why she "ruled it out". But it might well happen anyway. For example, it would be quite something if ongoing the electoral fraud inquiries prompted so many by-elections that a General Election became a good option for essentially resetting the Parliament.
Mr. Llama, that defence issue you raise sounds bloody moronic. Call defending other parts of the world foreign aid, and shuffle the finding into the cretinous overseas aid budget. [The 0.7% target remains daft as a brush, but considerably more expensive].
Mr. BudG, attack? Unlikely.
But then, a ship in harbour is safe. But that is not what ships are for.
@MrHarryCole: Grim: "We are watching you, have noted your actions as traitors to Labour and your time as a Labour MP is numbered." https://t.co/rrjyc9hkHF
Brilliant, a dead heat. Challenger to Corbyn to be decided by toss of a coin. You couldn't make it up.
@BudG It's quite civilised, though I always laugh at the idea that anyone from the hard right is here. It's mostly sopping wet Tories and rich metropolitan liberals. In the ten years I've been here I've yet to see a call for the death penalty, return of corporal punishment in schools or deportation of mus-, well not since yesterday at least.
Judicial wheels moving quickly by UK court standards, but this will not be concluded as rapidly as some may have thought. I would be most amused if some element of this requires a reference to the European Court....
So of course the price has lengthened on betfair...
It's simply unjust to hold a referendum that has a clear answer then to challenge that in the courts.
When Tory MPs speak of love in their speeches they speak of love for country. When Labour politicians speak of it they are far more likely to reference Labour. Think of it this way, for a Labour MP to walk away from the Labour party is as hard as it is for a Tory MP to walk away from his/her country.
.....just kidding.