"He wasn't exactly a very good Muslim." This concept is becoming popular but on its own, it's vacuous.
IS will no doubt say that Western Muslims are not good Muslims either. Who is the better Muslim? Sunni or Shia? Or one of the minor branches?
Christianity has major tenets; the Golden Rule and the nature of Christ. Islam has the Koran and the Hadith and the opinion of the scholars is not paramount. Verses can be, and are read in isolation. By comparison, the arguments between Christians are minor.
Oh, and most Christians are not good Christians either, but they know it.
I assumed this was code for *not really anything to do with Islam* It really doesn't wash with most of us.
Also remember in Syria / Iraq , IS have effectively a grading system where the less "pure" a Muslim you are the lower down the food chain you are placed ie used as cannon fodder / suicide bomber. They don't really care about your muslimness if you are willing to serve their needs.
What is needed is ex-member after ex-member of the shadow cabinet standing up and explaining why their job was impossible with Corbyn as leader. How they were undermined, how Corbyn simply would not speak to them, how policy was changed in an incoherent way, how he is clearly and obviously not up to the job and how it is simply inconceivable that Labour could go into a general election presenting him as a possible PM.
This process has already started and the complete chaos of Labour over the last year indicates that there is plenty more to come. Will it be enough? Who knows. But this is all about Corbyn and the spotlight needs to be on him from the start in a way it never was the last time.
Whilst I agree with that - it's a pointless exercise if they can't drum up a half credible alternative out of the rest and a reason to vote for them bar I'm Not Jezza.
I can't get over what crappily executed coup/challenge this is. It fails on almost every level. A couple of days ago we were wondering if Erdogan had planned his own to grab more power. If Jeremy wins the leadership ballot, we could be forgiven for wondering the same
I'm not Jezza really should be enough. Neither of the alternatives are compelling but again those with ability in the party need to support him or her and confirm that getting rid of Jezza is a first and necessary step to getting the shadow cabinet back in working order.
This is not meant as a dig at Leave (although it manages to be one), but @YellowSubmarine is absolutely right.
We used to read the Mencken quote and smile.
Add obstinacy and emotional response (and a vote against personal benefit) to intelligence and you have the world today.
If I was an ordinary Labour member, especially one who’d been around for a while I’d be puzzled. Over the years I’ve worked to elect Labour MP’s and indeed a Labour Government, which, apart from one very bad big thing (Iraq) did a lot of good things. Now we’ve got a leader who has, I know, been part of the Leftie wing, but who got quite a lot of support from my vintage and a great deal from enthusiastic new brothers and sisters. Not really keen on his views on Trident, and the monarchy, but there are a lot of hangers on round that and there aren’t enough questions asked. But unless you elect me, the party’s not going to totally agree with all my views.
So why are his Parliamentary colleagues so dead against him?
£25ers seem to be mostly Jezza supporters on twitter. Website back up now and people registering.
There are the only ones with the money :-)
I don't share Corbyn's politics, but if I were a Labour member I would want to vote for him now.
The membership overwhelmingly backed Corbyn just nine months ago, yet some of the MPs began attacking him from day one. Almost all of them are attacking him now. Despite his mandate Corbyn has yet to be tested in a national election. The MPs are simply showing the contempt for the people and a rejection of democracy that exemplifies the problem with much of the political class nowadays, or at least people's perception of it.
As a Labour member I would see the MPs trying to stitch Corbyn up at the NEC by barring him from an election despite being the current leader, trying to stitch up the membership by barring thousands of people who had joined and already paid on a promise of being able to participate in a leader election, barring every single constituency from having any local meeting for at least the next two months, and putting out a silly set of rules suggesting membership applications will be rejected if someone rolls their eyes or 'tuts' at a meeting. And there are suggestions floating around that the anti-Corbyn faction appears to have got access to the membership database.
If I were a labour member I would feel driven to back Corbyn in circumstances like this - just to teach these anti-democratic MPs a lesson in democracy.
Totally agree - if being a member doesn't carry any voting rights/these can be withdrawn or fiddled with at the drop of a hat, what's the point?
Offering an Instant Buy A Vote Scheme is the pits.
What is needed is ex-member after ex-member of the shadow cabinet standing up and explaining why their job was impossible with Corbyn as leader. How they were undermined, how Corbyn simply would not speak to them, how policy was changed in an incoherent way, how he is clearly and obviously not up to the job and how it is simply inconceivable that Labour could go into a general election presenting him as a possible PM.
This process has already started and the complete chaos of Labour over the last year indicates that there is plenty more to come. Will it be enough? Who knows. But this is all about Corbyn and the spotlight needs to be on him from the start in a way it never was the last time.
Whilst I agree with that - it's a pointless exercise if they can't drum up a half credible alternative out of the rest and a reason to vote for them bar I'm Not Jezza.
I can't get over what crappily executed coup/challenge this is. It fails on almost every level. A couple of days ago we were wondering if Erdogan had planned his own to grab more power. If Jeremy wins the leadership ballot, we could be forgiven for wondering the same
Morning all,
I wonder if it seems crap because fundamentally it is stage one of an ongoing process. No one really credible to the wider electorate with serious ambitions is clearly ready to run and lose against Jezza. They are holding back.
Yes, but the crucial question is 'for what?'. Are they expecting Corbyn to fall on his sword at some point in the next three years? Are they looking to form a new party, where they won't individually be seen as a bad loser? Do they feel that they might themselves be able to challenge later in the parliament? Or is it simply that they don't know and hope that something will turn up before they need to take a positive decision?
Possibly this:
George Eaton @georgeeaton 9h9 hours ago Rather than splitting, Labour MPs hope to significantly narrow Corbyn's victory and challenge him again. Poll suggests they'll struggle.
I had heard that the MPs are so desperate that they are thinking of using the rules to challenge him over and over (whoever wrote the rules didn't foresee this, either). Keep it going for months until they get the result they want.
I do wonder whether they have thought this through?
/edit actually I don't, since the answer is obvious.
What is needed is ex-member after ex-member of the shadow cabinet standing up and explaining why their job was impossible with Corbyn as leader. How they were undermined, how Corbyn simply would not speak to them, how policy was changed in an incoherent way, how he is clearly and obviously not up to the job and how it is simply inconceivable that Labour could go into a general election presenting him as a possible PM.
This process has already started and the complete chaos of Labour over the last year indicates that there is plenty more to come. Will it be enough? Who knows. But this is all about Corbyn and the spotlight needs to be on him from the start in a way it never was the last time.
Whilst I agree with that - it's a pointless exercise if they can't drum up a half credible alternative out of the rest and a reason to vote for them bar I'm Not Jezza.
I can't get over what crappily executed coup/challenge this is. It fails on almost every level. A couple of days ago we were wondering if Erdogan had planned his own to grab more power. If Jeremy wins the leadership ballot, we could be forgiven for wondering the same
Morning all,
I wonder if it seems crap because fundamentally it is stage one of an ongoing process. No one really credible to the wider electorate with serious ambitions is clearly ready to run and lose against Jezza. They are holding back.
Yes, but the crucial question is 'for what?'. Are they expecting Corbyn to fall on his sword at some point in the next three years? Are they looking to form a new party, where they won't individually be seen as a bad loser? Do they feel that they might themselves be able to challenge later in the parliament? Or is it simply that they don't know and hope that something will turn up before they need to take a positive decision?
Possibly this:
George Eaton @georgeeaton 9h9 hours ago Rather than splitting, Labour MPs hope to significantly narrow Corbyn's victory and challenge him again. Poll suggests they'll struggle.
I had heard that the MPs are so desperate that they are thinking of using the rules to challenge him over and over (whoever wrote the rules didn't foresee this, either). Keep it going for months until they get the result they want.
I do wonder whether they have thought this through?
/edit actually I don't, since the answer is obvious.
dear god just get on with it and split.
The Labour brand will be retained by Jezza but that is just something the rebels will have to deal with.
"He wasn't exactly a very good Muslim." This concept is becoming popular but on its own, it's vacuous.
IS will no doubt say that Western Muslims are not good Muslims either. Who is the better Muslim? Sunni or Shia? Or one of the minor branches?
Christianity has major tenets; the Golden Rule and the nature of Christ. Islam has the Koran and the Hadith and the opinion of the scholars is not paramount. Verses can be, and are read in isolation. By comparison, the arguments between Christians are minor.
Oh, and most Christians are not good Christians either, but they know it.
You can break most of the ten commandments on a regular basis and still be a good citizen. You just have to choose the right ones.
What is needed is ex-member after ex-member of the shadow cabinet standing up and explaining why their job was impossible with Corbyn as leader. How they were undermined, how Corbyn simply would not speak to them, how policy was changed in an incoherent way, how he is clearly and obviously not up to the job and how it is simply inconceivable that Labour could go into a general election presenting him as a possible PM.
This process has already started and the complete chaos of Labour over the last year indicates that there is plenty more to come. Will it be enough? Who knows. But this is all about Corbyn and the spotlight needs to be on him from the start in a way it never was the last time.
Whilst I agree with that - it's a pointless exercise if they can't drum up a half credible alternative out of the rest and a reason to vote for them bar I'm Not Jezza.
I can't get over what crappily executed coup/challenge this is. It fails on almost every level. A couple of days ago we were wondering if Erdogan had planned his own to grab more power. If Jeremy wins the leadership ballot, we could be forgiven for wondering the same
Morning all,
I wonder if it seems crap because fundamentally it is stage one of an ongoing process. No one really credible to the wider electorate with serious ambitions is clearly ready to run and lose against Jezza. They are holding back.
Yes, but the crucial question is 'for what?'. Are they expecting Corbyn to fall on his sword at some point in the next three years? Are they looking to form a new party, where they won't individually be seen as a bad loser? Do they feel that they might themselves be able to challenge later in the parliament? Or is it simply that they don't know and hope that something will turn up before they need to take a positive decision?
Possibly this:
George Eaton @georgeeaton 9h9 hours ago Rather than splitting, Labour MPs hope to significantly narrow Corbyn's victory and challenge him again. Poll suggests they'll struggle.
Sounds like a WWI strategy of keep throwing men over the top and one day it might work!!
What is needed is ex-member after ex-member of the shadow cabinet standing up and explaining why their job was impossible with Corbyn as leader. How they were undermined, how Corbyn simply would not speak to them, how policy was changed in an incoherent way, how he is clearly and obviously not up to the job and how it is simply inconceivable that Labour could go into a general election presenting him as a possible PM.
This process has already started and the complete chaos of Labour over the last year indicates that there is plenty more to come. Will it be enough? Who knows. But this is all about Corbyn and the spotlight needs to be on him from the start in a way it never was the last time.
Whilst I agree with that - it's a pointless exercise if they can't drum up a half credible alternative out of the rest and a reason to vote for them bar I'm Not Jezza.
I can't get over what crappily executed coup/challenge this is. It fails on almost every level. A couple of days ago we were wondering if Erdogan had planned his own to grab more power. If Jeremy wins the leadership ballot, we could be forgiven for wondering the same
Morning all,
I wonder if it seems crap because fundamentally it is stage one of an ongoing process. No one really credible to the wider electorate with serious ambitions is clearly ready to run and lose against Jezza. They are holding back.
Yes, but the crucial question is 'for what?'. Are they expecting Corbyn to fall on his sword at some point in the next three years? Are they looking to form a new party, where they won't individually be seen as a bad loser? Do they feel that they might themselves be able to challenge later in the parliament? Or is it simply that they don't know and hope that something will turn up before they need to take a positive decision?
Suspect they are a) hoping something will turn up b) pessimistic about prospects of defeating JC without a crushing electoral defeat first.
The problem is... if Corbyn does win this... then his mandate is even more secure....
Especially after a few more rule 'clarifications'.
If I was an ordinary Labour member, especially one who’d been around for a while I’d be puzzled. Over the years I’ve worked to elect Labour MP’s and indeed a Labour Government, which, apart from one very bad big thing (Iraq) did a lot of good things. Now we’ve got a leader who has, I know, been part of the Leftie wing, but who got quite a lot of support from my vintage and a great deal from enthusiastic new brothers and sisters. Not really keen on his views on Trident, and the monarchy, but there are a lot of hangers on round that and there aren’t enough questions asked. But unless you elect me, the party’s not going to totally agree with all my views.
So why are his Parliamentary colleagues so dead against him?
It's Miliband. People told them he was useless (not seen as a PM) but they let him sit there and he went down badly in the election. Now they have Corbyn who they see as more useless. Sitting there for four years plus another five years plus potentially another five makes some of the ambitious ones rather old.
What is needed is ex-member after ex-member of the shadow cabinet standing up and explaining why their job was impossible with Corbyn as leader. How they were undermined, how Corbyn simply would not speak to them, how policy was changed in an incoherent way, how he is clearly and obviously not up to the job and how it is simply inconceivable that Labour could go into a general election presenting him as a possible PM.
This process has already started and the complete chaos of Labour over the last year indicates that there is plenty more to come. Will it be enough? Who knows. But this is all about Corbyn and the spotlight needs to be on him from the start in a way it never was the last time.
Whilst I agree with that - it's a pointless exercise if they can't drum up a half credible alternative out of the rest and a reason to vote for them bar I'm Not Jezza.
I can't get over what crappily executed coup/challenge this is. It fails on almost every level. A couple of days ago we were wondering if Erdogan had planned his own to grab more power. If Jeremy wins the leadership ballot, we could be forgiven for wondering the same
Morning all,
I wonder if it seems crap because fundamentally it is stage one of an ongoing process. No one really credible to the wider electorate with serious ambitions is clearly ready to run and lose against Jezza. They are holding back.
Yes, but the crucial question is 'for what?'. Are they expecting Corbyn to fall on his sword at some point in the next three years? Are they looking to form a new party, where they won't individually be seen as a bad loser? Do they feel that they might themselves be able to challenge later in the parliament? Or is it simply that they don't know and hope that something will turn up before they need to take a positive decision?
Possibly this:
George Eaton @georgeeaton 9h9 hours ago Rather than splitting, Labour MPs hope to significantly narrow Corbyn's victory and challenge him again. Poll suggests they'll struggle.
I had heard that the MPs are so desperate that they are thinking of using the rules to challenge him over and over (whoever wrote the rules didn't foresee this, either). Keep it going for months until they get the result they want.
I do wonder whether they have thought this through?
/edit actually I don't, since the answer is obvious.
Even if Jez is removed the Labour Party will be unmanageable. Given the breadth of support Jez has across the CLP, Unions and members. It will result in civil war if he loses and a split if he wins. No real upside I can see here.
It's not the only legal issue. I've seen several media reports of internal French government legal advice saying the UK is entitled to revoke the invocation of A50 within the two year count down.....
No one seems bothered by the EU saying to Turkey what they can or cannot do with judicial rules. I may be the odd one out, but it makes me uneasy. I'm against the death penalty and have always been so, but surely this is a decision for that country. Where does trade come into it?
Yes, we as a country can decide not to trade with another country - that is our right. But that is up to our elected government, not an unelected clique in Brussels. It may seem a small point but it's not. If Juncker decides that voting in a Labour government is not allowed, would we accept it? Even I would vote for Corbyn under those circumstances.
In 1975, this sort of EU oversight would have been dismissed as a conspiracy theory. We're leaving just in time.
There is no doubt that Corbyn will win again as many Labour members are absolutely wedded to him personally and will not listen to anyone else. Corbyn has now become a victim of a Blairite conspiracy, which makes him even more attractive. Labour party members are generally affluent and so have no direct experience of public service cuts, low wages and job insecurity. Their political beliefs are entirely abstract.
What happens after Corbyn's victory in September is a move to consolidate the hard left's power in the party, with mandatory reselection of MPs becoming policy and the NEC becoming even more accommodating to Corbyn.
It's worth repeating time and again: the hard left has absolutely no interest whatsoever in Parliamentary democracy. The path to true socialism is via the streets and mass protest turning into uprising.
Individual members may well be affluent, but members via affilliated Trade Unions are generally not.
These are particularly in the public sector so include a lot of council, civil service and NHS staff whose experience of austerity is real.
Lots of sore losers among both remainers and anti-Corbyn people in the Labour party.
Oh god look who the judges.....
It's ok he is only concerned with "parliamentary sovereignty"
"Santos’s lawyers insist the legal challenge is concerned with the constitutional principle of parliamentary sovereignty rather than being engineered for a particular political outcome. Santos, it is said, is not seeking to challenge the result of the referendum, nor is he trying to halt Brexit"
If I was an ordinary Labour member, especially one who’d been around for a while I’d be puzzled. Over the years I’ve worked to elect Labour MP’s and indeed a Labour Government, which, apart from one very bad big thing (Iraq) did a lot of good things. Now we’ve got a leader who has, I know, been part of the Leftie wing, but who got quite a lot of support from my vintage and a great deal from enthusiastic new brothers and sisters. Not really keen on his views on Trident, and the monarchy, but there are a lot of hangers on round that and there aren’t enough questions asked. But unless you elect me, the party’s not going to totally agree with all my views.
So why are his Parliamentary colleagues so dead against him?
These might help on why so many non-Blairite MPs have turned against Corbyn and gone public about it:
What is needed is ex-member after ex-member of the shadow cabinet standing up and explaining why their job was impossible with Corbyn as leader. How they were undermined, how Corbyn simply would not speak to them, how policy was changed in an incoherent way, how he is clearly and obviously not up to the job and how it is simply inconceivable that Labour could go into a general election presenting him as a possible PM.
This process has already started and the complete chaos of Labour over the last year indicates that there is plenty more to come. Will it be enough? Who knows. But this is all about Corbyn and the spotlight needs to be on him from the start in a way it never was the last time.
David, those whining nobodies up whinging will only make more people vote for Jeremy. He may be crap but the sight of all those cowardly wasters is sure to harden the vote for him.
No one seems bothered by the EU saying to Turkey what they can or cannot do with judicial rules. I may be the odd one out, but it makes me uneasy. I'm against the death penalty and have always been so, but surely this is a decision for that country. Where does trade come into it?
Yes, we as a country can decide not to trade with another country - that is our right. But that is up to our elected government, not an unelected clique in Brussels. It may seem a small point but it's not. If Juncker decides that voting in a Labour government is not allowed, would we accept it? Even I would vote for Corbyn under those circumstances.
In 1975, this sort of EU oversight would have been dismissed as a conspiracy theory. We're leaving just in time.
I don't mind EU membership rules preventing death penalty sentences - it's part of the club entry rules and very easy to define. What I do object to is the EU's desire to sanction rightwing parties/policies that they don't like. Poland has already been instructed, Austria if it elects Hofer is another.
There is no doubt that Corbyn will win again as many Labour members are absolutely wedded to him personally and will not listen to anyone else. Corbyn has now become a victim of a Blairite conspiracy, which makes him even more attractive. Labour party members are generally affluent and so have no direct experience of public service cuts, low wages and job insecurity. Their political beliefs are entirely abstract.
What happens after Corbyn's victory in September is a move to consolidate the hard left's power in the party, with mandatory reselection of MPs becoming policy and the NEC becoming even more accommodating to Corbyn.
It's worth repeating time and again: the hard left has absolutely no interest whatsoever in Parliamentary democracy. The path to true socialism is via the streets and mass protest turning into uprising.
Individual members may well be affluent, but members via affilliated Trade Unions are generally not.
These are particularly in the public sector so include a lot of council, civil service and NHS staff whose experience of austerity is real.
It is individual, rather than affiliated, members who vote. And SO is quite right: those who support JC are cultists, who, like him, would be (and under Blair, were) horrified by the complexities and compromises involved in actually running anything.
There is no doubt that Corbyn will win again as many Labour members are absolutely wedded to him personally and will not listen to anyone else. Corbyn has now become a victim of a Blairite conspiracy, which makes him even more attractive. Labour party members are generally affluent and so have no direct experience of public service cuts, low wages and job insecurity. Their political beliefs are entirely abstract.
What happens after Corbyn's victory in September is a move to consolidate the hard left's power in the party, with mandatory reselection of MPs becoming policy and the NEC becoming even more accommodating to Corbyn.
It's worth repeating time and again: the hard left has absolutely no interest whatsoever in Parliamentary democracy. The path to true socialism is via the streets and mass protest turning into uprising.
I found it telling and actually slightly unsettling to hear Labour mp's admitting this was the aim.
If I was an ordinary Labour member, especially one who’d been around for a while I’d be puzzled. Over the years I’ve worked to elect Labour MP’s and indeed a Labour Government, which, apart from one very bad big thing (Iraq) did a lot of good things. Now we’ve got a leader who has, I know, been part of the Leftie wing, but who got quite a lot of support from my vintage and a great deal from enthusiastic new brothers and sisters. Not really keen on his views on Trident, and the monarchy, but there are a lot of hangers on round that and there aren’t enough questions asked. But unless you elect me, the party’s not going to totally agree with all my views.
So why are his Parliamentary colleagues so dead against him?
It's Miliband. People told them he was useless (not seen as a PM) but they let him sit there and he went down badly in the election. Now they have Corbyn who they see as more useless. Sitting there for four years plus another five years plus potentially another five makes some of the ambitious ones rather old.
Think that’s too easy, with respect. Milliband’s big 2015 poroblem was Scotland, not England or Wales. As an OM I might well feel that Corbyn, given support would be a breath of fresh air compared to the Tories, certainly the Tories under the Bullingdon Bullies.
Jezza's economic views are agreeable to many trade unionists and Labour voters. The split appears on his Internationalist opinions. In a GE campaign, these may just be mentioned occasionally by the Tories.
On-topic: how accurate was the polling last time round?
Off-topic: trying to stop Brexit through the courts after people voted for it (and, I believe, the Remain literature, officially from the Government, said that the UK would implement whatever decision was voted for) is rancid. If it succeeds, there'll be fury, and rightly so.
No one seems bothered by the EU saying to Turkey what they can or cannot do with judicial rules. I may be the odd one out, but it makes me uneasy. I'm against the death penalty and have always been so, but surely this is a decision for that country. Where does trade come into it?
Yes, we as a country can decide not to trade with another country - that is our right. But that is up to our elected government, not an unelected clique in Brussels. It may seem a small point but it's not. If Juncker decides that voting in a Labour government is not allowed, would we accept it? Even I would vote for Corbyn under those circumstances.
In 1975, this sort of EU oversight would have been dismissed as a conspiracy theory. We're leaving just in time.
I don't mind EU membership rules preventing death penalty sentences - it's part of the club entry rules and very easy to define. What I do object to is the EU's desire to sanction rightwing parties/policies that they don't like. Poland has already been instructed, Austria if it elects Hofer is another.
Turkey is a party to the ECHR, which bans the death penalty.
Edit, sorry probably should have replied to CD13. The EU is only saying that Turkey should abide by the conventions that it is has signed up to. If they want to leave the ECHR that is their choice.
It's not the only legal issue. I've seen several media reports of internal French government legal advice saying the UK is entitled to revoke the invocation of A50 within the two year count down.....
If so, that dramatically reduces the chance of the Tories risking a pre-2020 GE, surely?
Jezza's economic views are agreeable to many trade unionists and Labour voters. The split appears on his Internationalist opinions. In a GE campaign, these may just be mentioned occasionally by the Tories.
He may have economic views, but as far as anyone can tell he has yet to articulate an economic policy.
What is needed is ex-member after ex-member of the shadow cabinet standing up and explaining why their job was impossible with Corbyn as leader. How they were undermined, how Corbyn simply would not speak to them, how policy was changed in an incoherent way, how he is clearly and obviously not up to the job and how it is simply inconceivable that Labour could go into a general election presenting him as a possible PM.
This process has already started and the complete chaos of Labour over the last year indicates that there is plenty more to come. Will it be enough? Who knows. But this is all about Corbyn and the spotlight needs to be on him from the start in a way it never was the last time.
Whilst I agree with that - it's a pointless exercise if they can't drum up a half credible alternative out of the rest and a reason to vote for them bar I'm Not Jezza.
I can't get over what crappily executed coup/challenge this is. It fails on almost every level. A couple of days ago we were wondering if Erdogan had planned his own to grab more power. If Jeremy wins the leadership ballot, we could be forgiven for wondering the same
Morning all,
I wonder if it seems crap because fundamentally it is stage one of an ongoing process. No one really credible to the wider electorate with serious ambitions is clearly ready to run and lose against Jezza. They are holding back.
No they are useless and scared to get drubbed by Jeremy yet again. How bad must it be to realise you are so useless that Jeremy can beat you in a canter. They will keep heads down in the trough and sup away.
What happens after Corbyn's victory in September is a move to consolidate the hard left's power in the party, with mandatory reselection of MPs becoming policy and the NEC becoming even more accommodating to Corbyn.
It's worth repeating time and again: the hard left has absolutely no interest whatsoever in Parliamentary democracy. The path to true socialism is via the streets and mass protest turning into uprising.
If in a head to head with a single challenger, the leader of the Labour Party is unable to win by a margin of more than lets say 60% to 40%, despite all the underlying loyalty that any sitting party leader could normally command from party members, that is hardly a ringing endorsement though.
That 60% support will be coming from well beyond the hard left alone. Over a long period of a couple of years at least, Labour will suffer electoral losses accompanied by poor polling, such that the penny will finally drop for some of Corbyn's supporters that he is after all a total electoral liability and that the party cannot go on like this. However, other members who are Corbyn opponents will leave in despair. The question is whether the former happens faster than the latter, and whether the party can hold together in the meantime. If the split is for now confined to the PLP declaring independence and electing a separate leader who will be LOTO, there is still a chance of that. If we see the formal creation of a fully fledged breakaway party, then it will be too late.
Bercow's already ruled on that, hasn't he? The LotO is the leader of the Labour Party while the Labour party has second-most MPs, irrespective of how rebellious they are. That stays unless there are enough formal defections / splits / resignations / expulsions to move some other party into second.
Bercow has only ruled on that in the context of the current PLP rules, but they can change. That's what I meant about "declaring independence" - the PLP changing its rules so to elect a separate leader and shadow ministerial posts and for MPs to confirm that they are part of the PLP. As the PLP is legally independent of the Labour Party it cannot be prevented from setting new rules and standing order - all that the NEC can do is fail to endorse them. Once that happens, and the PLP carries on regardless we're then in uncharted waters because (not surprisingly) the Labour rule book never envisaged such a scenario.
There is no doubt that Corbyn will win again as many Labour members are absolutely wedded to him personally and will not listen to anyone else. Corbyn has now become a victim of a Blairite conspiracy, which makes him even more attractive. Labour party members are generally affluent and so have no direct experience of public service cuts, low wages and job insecurity. Their political beliefs are entirely abstract.
What happens after Corbyn's victory in September is a move to consolidate the hard left's power in the party, with mandatory reselection of MPs becoming policy and the NEC becoming even more accommodating to Corbyn.
It's worth repeating time and again: the hard left has absolutely no interest whatsoever in Parliamentary democracy. The path to true socialism is via the streets and mass protest turning into uprising.
Individual members may well be affluent, but members via affilliated Trade Unions are generally not.
These are particularly in the public sector so include a lot of council, civil service and NHS staff whose experience of austerity is real.
And around 40% of Labour members will vote against Corbyn.
It's not the only legal issue. I've seen several media reports of internal French government legal advice saying the UK is entitled to revoke the invocation of A50 within the two year count down.....
If so, that dramatically reduces the chance of the Tories risking a pre-2020 GE, surely?
If the legal advice is accurate ! I suppose it would end up in the ECJ if the right to revoke the invocation was challenged by other member states. But if it *is* accurate then any UK GE during the two year notice period is dead facto another membership referendum. If major parties wanted it to be.
What is needed is ex-member after ex-member of the shadow cabinet standing up and explaining why their job was impossible with Corbyn as leader. How they were undermined, how Corbyn simply would not speak to them, how policy was changed in an incoherent way, how he is clearly and obviously not up to the job and how it is simply inconceivable that Labour could go into a general election presenting him as a possible PM.
This process has already started and the complete chaos of Labour over the last year indicates that there is plenty more to come. Will it be enough? Who knows. But this is all about Corbyn and the spotlight needs to be on him from the start in a way it never was the last time.
Whilst I agree with that - it's a pointless exercise if they can't drum up a half credible alternative out of the rest and a reason to vote for them bar I'm Not Jezza.
I can't get over what crappily executed coup/challenge this is. It fails on almost every level. A couple of days ago we were wondering if Erdogan had planned his own to grab more power. If Jeremy wins the leadership ballot, we could be forgiven for wondering the same
Morning all,
I wonder if it seems crap because fundamentally it is stage one of an ongoing process. No one really credible to the wider electorate with serious ambitions is clearly ready to run and lose against Jezza. They are holding back.
Yes, but the crucial question is 'for what?'. Are they expecting Corbyn to fall on his sword at some point in the next three years? Are they looking to form a new party, where they won't individually be seen as a bad loser? Do they feel that they might themselves be able to challenge later in the parliament? Or is it simply that they don't know and hope that something will turn up before they need to take a positive decision?
Possibly this:
George Eaton @georgeeaton 9h9 hours ago Rather than splitting, Labour MPs hope to significantly narrow Corbyn's victory and challenge him again. Poll suggests they'll struggle.
Sounds like a WWI strategy of keep throwing men over the top and one day it might work!!
The corollary to that is that those going over the top and their supporters are having their careers and reputations badly damaged, possibly terminally.
There is brand loyalty and it will persist for a little longer. But Jezza could be a disaster - the disappointment will be epic.
I gather from some anecdotes floating around that many Jezza supporters really believe utterly that he will win the next election. Mind you after the year we've had so far, maybe they are right and us old election watching cynics with our constituency redrawn boundary maps are wrong!!!
I had lunch with an old friend of mine on Saturday, a fully paid up member of the chatterati, a film director and artist. Politics came up and he said he thought the mainstream media were a joke because they were making highly personal and false remarks about Corbyn, and not explaining why he was so popular in the country.
The problem is that such people almost only ever talk to each other about politics and all read the same blogs and newspapers, so they don't get how out of touch they are. Look at our resident pro-Stalin, pro-Chavez loon who defines himself as 'middle of the road Labour'. So naturally they believe Corbyn is wildly popular because all the people they speak to love him.
Incidentally, my friend dismissed the local election results because they were from a 'high base' and said that the by-elections all showed a strong swing to Labour. When I pointed out they were all in safe Labour seats and the local election results were worse than those of Hague or Duncan Smith, he just smiled and said 'we'll see.'
It's the Labour voters I feel sorry for. Which party do they vote for now - if at all?
"He wasn't exactly a very good Muslim." This concept is becoming popular but on its own, it's vacuous.
IS will no doubt say that Western Muslims are not good Muslims either. Who is the better Muslim? Sunni or Shia? Or one of the minor branches?
Christianity has major tenets; the Golden Rule and the nature of Christ. Islam has the Koran and the Hadith and the opinion of the scholars is not paramount. Verses can be, and are read in isolation. By comparison, the arguments between Christians are minor.
Oh, and most Christians are not good Christians either, but they know it.
I assumed this was code for *not really anything to do with Islam* It really doesn't wash with most of us.
Exactly - it is also completely at odds with what the perpetrators themselves think and say.
On-topic: how accurate was the polling last time round?
Off-topic: trying to stop Brexit through the courts after people voted for it (and, I believe, the Remain literature, officially from the Government, said that the UK would implement whatever decision was voted for) is rancid. If it succeeds, there'll be fury, and rightly so.
If I was an ordinary Labour member, especially one who’d been around for a while I’d be puzzled. Over the years I’ve worked to elect Labour MP’s and indeed a Labour Government, which, apart from one very bad big thing (Iraq) did a lot of good things. Now we’ve got a leader who has, I know, been part of the Leftie wing, but who got quite a lot of support from my vintage and a great deal from enthusiastic new brothers and sisters. Not really keen on his views on Trident, and the monarchy, but there are a lot of hangers on round that and there aren’t enough questions asked. But unless you elect me, the party’s not going to totally agree with all my views.
So why are his Parliamentary colleagues so dead against him?
It's Miliband. People told them he was useless (not seen as a PM) but they let him sit there and he went down badly in the election. Now they have Corbyn who they see as more useless. Sitting there for four years plus another five years plus potentially another five makes some of the ambitious ones rather old.
Think that’s too easy, with respect. Milliband’s big 2015 poroblem was Scotland, not England or Wales. As an OM I might well feel that Corbyn, given support would be a breath of fresh air compared to the Tories, certainly the Tories under the Bullingdon Bullies.
I take your point - but the question was about the MPs' behaviour.
Lab MPs spent much of the last five years defending EdM, despite hearing both from polls and the public that people didn't see him as PM material. When the election came they thought they had a chance, but crashed and burned. And didn't do well enough in E&W either, outside London.
The post-election analysis was basically that you can't win if people can't see your leader as PM (OK there was a policy vacuum and some wrong tactics as well, but that's the bottom line). Now they have another leader the public sees as even less suitable to be PM.
So I can understand where the MPs are coming from.
Personally, I think things are at the point where Corbyn has to be tested in a national election and seen to fail. But of course the MPs are desperately looking for a shorter and less painful way out.
On-topic: how accurate was the polling last time round?
Off-topic: trying to stop Brexit through the courts after people voted for it (and, I believe, the Remain literature, officially from the Government, said that the UK would implement whatever decision was voted for) is rancid. If it succeeds, there'll be fury, and rightly so.
I think the MPs/voters faction of Labour should now admit that they have lost the civil war to the leadership/membership faction. Labour is the hard left's poodle now. Just walk already! Form SDP2 or cross the floor to the LibDems and rejoin SDP1. But please, please, please STFU about Labour. It's a lost cause to you. Deal with your grief. Suck it up. And GO.
Jezza's economic views are agreeable to many trade unionists and Labour voters. The split appears on his Internationalist opinions. In a GE campaign, these may just be mentioned occasionally by the Tories.
He may have economic views, but as far as anyone can tell he has yet to articulate an economic policy.
IIRC Owen Smith wants to spend £200bn already. Labour's problem as ever is a lack of economic credibility when it comes to tax/spend - or more accurately borrow/spend sensibly.
The Tories can get away with it, as they aren't associated with poor money management.
I think the MPs/voters faction of Labour should now admit that they have lost the civil war to the leadership/membership faction. Labour is the hard left's poodle now. Just walk already! Form SDP2 or cross the floor to the LibDems and rejoin SDP1. But please, please, please STFU about Labour. It's a lost cause to you. Deal with your grief. Suck it up. And GO.
They prefer to stay at the trough and whinge from the sidelines, no chance they will strike out on their own.
There is no doubt that Corbyn will win again as many Labour members are absolutely wedded to him personally and will not listen to anyone else. Corbyn has now become a victim of a Blairite conspiracy, which makes him even more attractive. Labour party members are generally affluent and so have no direct experience of public service cuts, low wages and job insecurity. Their political beliefs are entirely abstract.
What happens after Corbyn's victory in September is a move to consolidate the hard left's power in the party, with mandatory reselection of MPs becoming policy and the NEC becoming even more accommodating to Corbyn.
It's worth repeating time and again: the hard left has absolutely no interest whatsoever in Parliamentary democracy. The path to true socialism is via the streets and mass protest turning into uprising.
Individual members may well be affluent, but members via affilliated Trade Unions are generally not.
These are particularly in the public sector so include a lot of council, civil service and NHS staff whose experience of austerity is real.
It is individual, rather than affiliated, members who vote. And SO is quite right: those who support JC are cultists, who, like him, would be (and under Blair, were) horrified by the complexities and compromises involved in actually running anything.
If I was an ordinary Labour member, especially one who’d been around for a while I’d be puzzled. Over the years I’ve worked to elect Labour MP’s and indeed a Labour Government, which, apart from one very bad big thing (Iraq) did a lot of good things. Now we’ve got a leader who has, I know, been part of the Leftie wing, but who got quite a lot of support from my vintage and a great deal from enthusiastic new brothers and sisters. Not really keen on his views on Trident, and the monarchy, but there are a lot of hangers on round that and there aren’t enough questions asked. But unless you elect me, the party’s not going to totally agree with all my views.
So why are his Parliamentary colleagues so dead against him?
My word OKC .... the most basic political reason of all for a major party - Corbyn is a dead cert loser.
Why are Labour MPs much more anti-Corbyn than the members?
I would suggest the answer is that they have met him, worked with him and listened to him carefully, so can see the spin he puts out for party members about his honesty, decency and principled nature for what it is.
There is no doubt that Corbyn will win again as many Labour members are absolutely wedded to him personally and will not listen to anyone else. Corbyn has now become a victim of a Blairite conspiracy, which makes him even more attractive. Labour party members are generally affluent and so have no direct experience of public service cuts, low wages and job insecurity. Their political beliefs are entirely abstract.
What happens after Corbyn's victory in September is a move to consolidate the hard left's power in the party, with mandatory reselection of MPs becoming policy and the NEC becoming even more accommodating to Corbyn.
It's worth repeating time and again: the hard left has absolutely no interest whatsoever in Parliamentary democracy. The path to true socialism is via the streets and mass protest turning into uprising.
Individual members may well be affluent, but members via affilliated Trade Unions are generally not.
These are particularly in the public sector so include a lot of council, civil service and NHS staff whose experience of austerity is real.
The NHS has not suffered a single penny of austerity, the opposite is the case. If those who work in the NHS feel they have suffered austerity it doesnt make it true, its just the changes that large organisations go through as they evolve and adapt are put down to external causes as its easier to say we are doing XYZ because of cuts/austerity, than we are XYZ to improve clinical outcomes.
In what world was this guy, shot dead at the scene, merely "suspected" of being the attacker? FFS, why is the Guardian even bothering to report "news"....
If I was an ordinary Labour member, especially one who’d been around for a while I’d be puzzled. Over the years I’ve worked to elect Labour MP’s and indeed a Labour Government, which, apart from one very bad big thing (Iraq) did a lot of good things. Now we’ve got a leader who has, I know, been part of the Leftie wing, but who got quite a lot of support from my vintage and a great deal from enthusiastic new brothers and sisters. Not really keen on his views on Trident, and the monarchy, but there are a lot of hangers on round that and there aren’t enough questions asked. But unless you elect me, the party’s not going to totally agree with all my views.
So why are his Parliamentary colleagues so dead against him?
It's Miliband. People told them he was useless (not seen as a PM) but they let him sit there and he went down badly in the election. Now they have Corbyn who they see as more useless. Sitting there for four years plus another five years plus potentially another five makes some of the ambitious ones rather old.
Think that’s too easy, with respect. Milliband’s big 2015 poroblem was Scotland, not England or Wales. As an OM I might well feel that Corbyn, given support would be a breath of fresh air compared to the Tories, certainly the Tories under the Bullingdon Bullies.
I take your point - but the question was about the MPs' behaviour.
Lab MPs spent much of the last five years defending EdM, despite hearing both from polls and the public that people didn't see him as PM material. When the election came they thought they had a chance, but crashed and burned. And didn't do well enough in E&W either, outside London.
The post-election analysis was basically that you can't win if people can't see your leader as PM (OK there was a policy vacuum and some wrong tactics as well, but that's the bottom line). Now they have another leader the public sees as even less suitable to be PM.
So I can understand where the MPs are coming from.
Personally, I think things are at the point where Corbyn has to be tested in a national election and seen to fail. But of course the MPs are desperately looking for a shorter and less painful way out.
There is no conceivable electoral failure for a man who believes that his kind of politics cannot be achieved through secret ballot elections - necessarily a secretive, individualistic process.
It's not the only legal issue. I've seen several media reports of internal French government legal advice saying the UK is entitled to revoke the invocation of A50 within the two year count down.....
If so, that dramatically reduces the chance of the Tories risking a pre-2020 GE, surely?
If the legal advice is accurate ! I suppose it would end up in the ECJ if the right to revoke the invocation was challenged by other member states. But if it *is* accurate then any UK GE during the two year notice period is dead facto another membership referendum. If major parties wanted it to be.
Lol so we may be back to speculating about what May *really* wanted!
There is brand loyalty and it will persist for a little longer. But Jezza could be a disaster - the disappointment will be epic.
I gather from some anecdotes floating around that many Jezza supporters really believe utterly that he will win the next election. Mind you after the year we've had so far, maybe they are right and us old election watching cynics with our constituency redrawn boundary maps are wrong!!!
I had lunch with an old friend of mine on Saturday, a fully paid up member of the chatterati, a film director and artist. Politics came up and he said he thought the mainstream media were a joke because they were making highly personal and false remarks about Corbyn, and not explaining why he was so popular in the country.
The problem is that such people almost only ever talk to each other about politics and all read the same blogs and newspapers, so they don't get how out of touch they are. Look at our resident pro-Stalin, pro-Chavez loon who defines himself as 'middle of the road Labour'. So naturally they believe Corbyn is wildly popular because all the people they speak to love him.
Incidentally, my friend dismissed the local election results because they were from a 'high base' and said that the by-elections all showed a strong swing to Labour. When I pointed out they were all in safe Labour seats and the local election results were worse than those of Hague or Duncan Smith, he just smiled and said 'we'll see.'
It's the Labour voters I feel sorry for. Which party do they vote for now - if at all?
Jezza's fan club has enough *evidence* to support their view that Corbyn's being unfairly traduced. Events happen and he takes credit for them. Any reversal of Tory policy is counted as a win for TeamJezza even if it was actually as a result of PCP revolts.
One needs to be a bit of an anorak to unpick the headlines - and frankly who cares that much when you're only looking for stuff that supports your POV?
The Tories multiple eff-ups post GE2015 just play to the TeamJezza narrative. And as you note - the election results. EdM's local elections were a high point. If the likes of Prof Curtice hadn't forecast big losses - it wouldn't have looked like a victory.
"He wasn't exactly a very good Muslim." This concept is becoming popular but on its own, it's vacuous.
IS will no doubt say that Western Muslims are not good Muslims either. Who is the better Muslim? Sunni or Shia? Or one of the minor branches?
Christianity has major tenets; the Golden Rule and the nature of Christ. Islam has the Koran and the Hadith and the opinion of the scholars is not paramount. Verses can be, and are read in isolation. By comparison, the arguments between Christians are minor.
Oh, and most Christians are not good Christians either, but they know it.
I assumed this was code for *not really anything to do with Islam* It really doesn't wash with most of us.
Exactly - it is also completely at odds with what the perpetrators themselves think and say.
Quite. Shouting Alluha Akbar! is a bit of a giveaway when it comes to motive.
Lots of sore losers among both remainers and anti-Corbyn people in the Labour party.
Oh god look who the judges.....
It's ok he is only concerned with "parliamentary sovereignty"
"Santos’s lawyers insist the legal challenge is concerned with the constitutional principle of parliamentary sovereignty rather than being engineered for a particular political outcome. Santos, it is said, is not seeking to challenge the result of the referendum, nor is he trying to halt Brexit"
I wonder who is paying?
This referendum is definitely turing into Hotel California - you can check out any time you like but you can never leave
"He wasn't exactly a very good Muslim." This concept is becoming popular but on its own, it's vacuous.
IS will no doubt say that Western Muslims are not good Muslims either. Who is the better Muslim? Sunni or Shia? Or one of the minor branches?
Christianity has major tenets; the Golden Rule and the nature of Christ. Islam has the Koran and the Hadith and the opinion of the scholars is not paramount. Verses can be, and are read in isolation. By comparison, the arguments between Christians are minor.
Oh, and most Christians are not good Christians either, but they know it.
I assumed this was code for *not really anything to do with Islam* It really doesn't wash with most of us.
Exactly - it is also completely at odds with what the perpetrators themselves think and say.
Quite. Shouting Alluha Akbar! is a bit of a giveaway when it comes to motive.
What makes you think he was trying to kill me, Blackadder? Well, sire, my suspicions were first aroused by his use of the words 'death to the stupid Prince.'
Why are Labour MPs much more anti-Corbyn than the members?
I would suggest the answer is that they have met him, worked with him and listened to him carefully, so can see the spin he puts out for party members about his honesty, decency and principled nature for what it is.
The problem with Corbyn is that he doesn't lead. At all. A leader's job is to lead.
Incidentally, how much progress will we get from the high court today? Will it be a clear-cut decision or is it just the start of a process?
I'm trying not to get too annoyed, so I'd prefer not to actually read the article if I can avoid it.
[I did hesitate more than expected before casting my vote, but the idea the result might be ignored or challenged in the courts has made me not so much wild but, in the words of Gerald the Gorilla, absolutely livid].
Why are Labour MPs much more anti-Corbyn than the members?
I would suggest the answer is that they have met him, worked with him and listened to him carefully, so can see the spin he puts out for party members about his honesty, decency and principled nature for what it is.
I've only met him once - and he's just like he is on the TV. Worthy, dresses like a tired geography teacher, dull and likes to expound at great length about his personal hobby horses. He enjoys holding court.
I don't want to sound patronising but to my mind the Labour party is like a country that has recently embraced democracy. They used to have the weird block vote system of election by thirds and prior to that you always had a compromise between the grassroots and affiliates and the Unions (or their bosses). That's not to my mind how a modern political party should operate and one reason I would never consider joining Labour. But Miliband did try to open it up. £3 was probably a mistake but he had to get the Unions onside. Over time I suspect Labour will get used to it.
"He wasn't exactly a very good Muslim." This concept is becoming popular but on its own, it's vacuous.
IS will no doubt say that Western Muslims are not good Muslims either. Who is the better Muslim? Sunni or Shia? Or one of the minor branches?
Christianity has major tenets; the Golden Rule and the nature of Christ. Islam has the Koran and the Hadith and the opinion of the scholars is not paramount. Verses can be, and are read in isolation. By comparison, the arguments between Christians are minor.
Oh, and most Christians are not good Christians either, but they know it.
I assumed this was code for *not really anything to do with Islam* It really doesn't wash with most of us.
Exactly - it is also completely at odds with what the perpetrators themselves think and say.
Quite. Shouting Alluha Akbar! is a bit of a giveaway when it comes to motive.
Some people said that they heard him say that. Some like to think they heard /saw things that never actually happened. Have you ever watched a video and then been asked questions about it a few days later.. ? Until we know for certain that it was terrorist related, best not to state anything factually.
Why are Labour MPs much more anti-Corbyn than the members?
I would suggest the answer is that they have met him, worked with him and listened to him carefully, so can see the spin he puts out for party members about his honesty, decency and principled nature for what it is.
I've only met him once - and he's just like he is on the TV. Worthy, dresses like a tired geography teacher, dull and likes to expound at great length about his personal hobby horses. He enjoys holding court.
That in itself sounds like a good reason to hate him if you have to listen to a pub bore all the time!
... Over time I suspect Labour will get used to it.
Yes. But 'Labour' will have become the SWP and Stop The War rolled into one. Centre left voters will only have the LibDems to vote for. I bet the Tories are enjoying the Labour hara-kiri but probably not as much as the LibDems - it gives them a route back to relevance.
"He wasn't exactly a very good Muslim." This concept is becoming popular but on its own, it's vacuous.
IS will no doubt say that Western Muslims are not good Muslims either. Who is the better Muslim? Sunni or Shia? Or one of the minor branches?
Christianity has major tenets; the Golden Rule and the nature of Christ. Islam has the Koran and the Hadith and the opinion of the scholars is not paramount. Verses can be, and are read in isolation. By comparison, the arguments between Christians are minor.
Oh, and most Christians are not good Christians either, but they know it.
I assumed this was code for *not really anything to do with Islam* It really doesn't wash with most of us.
Exactly - it is also completely at odds with what the perpetrators themselves think and say.
Quite. Shouting Alluha Akbar! is a bit of a giveaway when it comes to motive.
Some people said that they heard him say that. Some like to think they heard /saw things that never actually happened. Have you ever watched a video and then been asked questions about it a few days later.. ? Until we know for certain that it was terrorist related, best not to state anything factually.
"He wasn't exactly a very good Muslim." This concept is becoming popular but on its own, it's vacuous.
IS will no doubt say that Western Muslims are not good Muslims either. Who is the better Muslim? Sunni or Shia? Or one of the minor branches?
Christianity has major tenets; the Golden Rule and the nature of Christ. Islam has the Koran and the Hadith and the opinion of the scholars is not paramount. Verses can be, and are read in isolation. By comparison, the arguments between Christians are minor.
Oh, and most Christians are not good Christians either, but they know it.
I assumed this was code for *not really anything to do with Islam* It really doesn't wash with most of us.
Exactly - it is also completely at odds with what the perpetrators themselves think and say.
Quite. Shouting Alluha Akbar! is a bit of a giveaway when it comes to motive.
Some people said that they heard him say that. Some like to think they heard /saw things that never actually happened. Have you ever watched a video and then been asked questions about it a few days later.. ? Until we know for certain that it was terrorist related, best not to state anything factually.
Incidentally, how much progress will we get from the high court today? Will it be a clear-cut decision or is it just the start of a process?
I'm trying not to get too annoyed, so I'd prefer not to actually read the article if I can avoid it.
[I did hesitate more than expected before casting my vote, but the idea the result might be ignored or challenged in the courts has made me not so much wild but, in the words of Gerald the Gorilla, absolutely livid].
Incidentally, how much progress will we get from the high court today? Will it be a clear-cut decision or is it just the start of a process?
I'm trying not to get too annoyed, so I'd prefer not to actually read the article if I can avoid it.
[I did hesitate more than expected before casting my vote, but the idea the result might be ignored or challenged in the courts has made me not so much wild but, in the words of Gerald the Gorilla, absolutely livid].
Blackadder and gerald quoted within minutes of each other. Is this some secret rowan atkinson quote competition?
If I was an ordinary Labour member, especially one who’d been around for a while I’d be puzzled. Over the years I’ve worked to elect Labour MP’s and indeed a Labour Government, which, apart from one very bad big thing (Iraq) did a lot of good things
So why are his Parliamentary colleagues so dead against him?
It's Miliband. People told them he was useless (not seen as a PM) but they let him sit there and he went down badly in the election. Now they have Corbyn who they see as more useless. Sitting there for four years plus another five years plus potentially another five makes some of the ambitious ones rather old.
Think that’s too easy, with respect. Milliband’s big 2015 poroblem was Scotland, not England or Wales. As an OM I might well feel that Corbyn, given support would be a breath of fresh air compared to the Tories, certainly the Tories under the Bullingdon Bullies.
I take your point - but the question was about the MPs' behaviour.
Lab MPs spent much of the last five years defending EdM, despite hearing both from polls and the public that people didn't see him as PM material. When the election came they thought they had a chance, but crashed and burned. And didn't do well enough in E&W either, outside London.
The post-election analysis was basically that you can't win if people can't see your leader as PM (OK there was a policy vacuum and some wrong tactics as well, but that's the bottom line). Now they have another leader the public sees as even less suitable to be PM.
So I can understand where the MPs are coming from.
Personally, I think things are at the point where Corbyn has to be tested in a national election and seen to fail. But of course the MPs are desperately looking for a shorter and less painful way out.
There is no conceivable electoral failure for a man who believes that his kind of politics cannot be achieved through secret ballot elections - necessarily a secretive, individualistic process.
Only slightly on-topic, I thought this was an interesting read:
It argues there is more to democracy than periodic elections, and in particular that our eagerness to thrust the western election-centred model of decision making onto other parts of the world is misguided, ignoring more traditional consensus-based and participatory ways of taking decisions.
Might be value in Hammond. He's the likely gainer if May stumbles over Brexit. Jarvis also might be the next Labour leader and it's conceivable although not hugely probable May could be there in nine years to be beaten so 25-1 looks about right.
All of the others are way too short. In particular, Jezza would not be value at anything less than 5,000-1.
Indeed, I would say there's an even chance our next PM isn't even on the list yet.
Oh .... you don't think the SNP will come second to the Tories at the next UK general election ....or perhaps be independent by 2020 ? ..
Well depends what election he was talking about , he kept his options open. I was thinking of eth important one at Holyrood and as you say it may be the only one by then.
Despite his mandate Corbyn has yet to be tested in a national election.
He was leader at the time of the (national) local elections.
Worst performance ever.
Doesnt really count, though. i know it's hard given their jobs are on the line, but Labour would be best advised to let Corbyn go through to a GE, now. The alternative scenarios are all worse. Regardless of the hard left's politics there will be enough members on the soft left who would accept a change of direction in face of a clear electoral verdict.
The problem the MPs are creating now is that their rebelliousness just plays into a narrative of breaking the captain's bats before the game.
Comments
We used to read the Mencken quote and smile.
Add obstinacy and emotional response (and a vote against personal benefit) to intelligence and you have the world today.
Now we’ve got a leader who has, I know, been part of the Leftie wing, but who got quite a lot of support from my vintage and a great deal from enthusiastic new brothers and sisters. Not really keen on his views on Trident, and the monarchy, but there are a lot of hangers on round that and there aren’t enough questions asked. But unless you elect me, the party’s not going to totally agree with all my views.
So why are his Parliamentary colleagues so dead against him?
Offering an Instant Buy A Vote Scheme is the pits.
I do wonder whether they have thought this through?
/edit actually I don't, since the answer is obvious.
The Labour brand will be retained by Jezza but that is just something the rebels will have to deal with.
The case, due to be heard in the high court on Tuesday, has been brought by Deir Dos Santos, a British citizen who works as a hairdresser. He has been subjected to internet abuse since his involvement was revealed.
Lots of sore losers among both remainers and anti-Corbyn people in the Labour party.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/19/government-awaits-first-legal-opposition-to-brexit-in-high-court?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Yes, we as a country can decide not to trade with another country - that is our right. But that is up to our elected government, not an unelected clique in Brussels. It may seem a small point but it's not. If Juncker decides that voting in a Labour government is not allowed, would we accept it? Even I would vote for Corbyn under those circumstances.
In 1975, this sort of EU oversight would have been dismissed as a conspiracy theory. We're leaving just in time.
These are particularly in the public sector so include a lot of council, civil service and NHS staff whose experience of austerity is real.
"Santos’s lawyers insist the legal challenge is concerned with the constitutional principle of parliamentary sovereignty rather than being engineered for a particular political outcome. Santos, it is said, is not seeking to challenge the result of the referendum, nor is he trying to halt Brexit"
I wonder who is paying?
http://www.liliangreenwood.co.uk/lilian_s_speech_to_nottingham_south_labour_party_members
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-shadow-cabinet-thangam-debbonaire-cancer-a7141341.html
Jezza's economic views are agreeable to many trade unionists and Labour voters. The split appears on his Internationalist opinions. In a GE campaign, these may just be mentioned occasionally by the Tories.
Too damned hot and humid.
On-topic: how accurate was the polling last time round?
Off-topic: trying to stop Brexit through the courts after people voted for it (and, I believe, the Remain literature, officially from the Government, said that the UK would implement whatever decision was voted for) is rancid. If it succeeds, there'll be fury, and rightly so.
Edited extra bit: shock as German axeman confirmed not to be a Methodist:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36832909
Edit, sorry probably should have replied to CD13. The EU is only saying that Turkey should abide by the conventions that it is has signed up to. If they want to leave the ECHR that is their choice.
"I don't need any lessons on free speech"
"I think you do"
'The Lost Generation'
The problem is that such people almost only ever talk to each other about politics and all read the same blogs and newspapers, so they don't get how out of touch they are. Look at our resident pro-Stalin, pro-Chavez loon who defines himself as 'middle of the road Labour'. So naturally they believe Corbyn is wildly popular because all the people they speak to love him.
Incidentally, my friend dismissed the local election results because they were from a 'high base' and said that the by-elections all showed a strong swing to Labour. When I pointed out they were all in safe Labour seats and the local election results were worse than those of Hague or Duncan Smith, he just smiled and said 'we'll see.'
It's the Labour voters I feel sorry for. Which party do they vote for now - if at all?
Lab MPs spent much of the last five years defending EdM, despite hearing both from polls and the public that people didn't see him as PM material. When the election came they thought they had a chance, but crashed and burned. And didn't do well enough in E&W either, outside London.
The post-election analysis was basically that you can't win if people can't see your leader as PM (OK there was a policy vacuum and some wrong tactics as well, but that's the bottom line). Now they have another leader the public sees as even less suitable to be PM.
So I can understand where the MPs are coming from.
Personally, I think things are at the point where Corbyn has to be tested in a national election and seen to fail. But of course the MPs are desperately looking for a shorter and less painful way out.
Now obviously this is unlikely, but it wasn't an anti-SNP comment.
The Tories can get away with it, as they aren't associated with poor money management.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/19/islamic-state-flag-home-of-suspected-german-train-attacker?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
That makes more sense. Thanks.
So why didn't they say that? I'm aware that I may only have been reading the headlines.
Miss Plato, cheers.
I would suggest the answer is that they have met him, worked with him and listened to him carefully, so can see the spin he puts out for party members about his honesty, decency and principled nature for what it is.
I agree that trying to overturn the democratic decision via lawyers and technicalities is incredibly stupid.
I however do support people's democratic right to be and act like petulant morons.
Declaration of interest I didn't Vote Leave.
One needs to be a bit of an anorak to unpick the headlines - and frankly who cares that much when you're only looking for stuff that supports your POV?
The Tories multiple eff-ups post GE2015 just play to the TeamJezza narrative. And as you note - the election results. EdM's local elections were a high point. If the likes of Prof Curtice hadn't forecast big losses - it wouldn't have looked like a victory.
Well, sire, my suspicions were first aroused by his use of the words 'death to the stupid Prince.'
I'm trying not to get too annoyed, so I'd prefer not to actually read the article if I can avoid it.
[I did hesitate more than expected before casting my vote, but the idea the result might be ignored or challenged in the courts has made me not so much wild but, in the words of Gerald the Gorilla, absolutely livid].
Pilot and copilot arrested for being drunk or as the report euphemistically says "alcohol impaired"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-36832625
A leaders job is to win.
Yet consider how crazy politics has been lately. A month ago, what would the odds have been on May being PM already?
Worst performance ever.
They're already briefing against each other in Westminster. Coming down to breakfast will be a spectator sport.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/why-elections-are-bad-for-democracy
It argues there is more to democracy than periodic elections, and in particular that our eagerness to thrust the western election-centred model of decision making onto other parts of the world is misguided, ignoring more traditional consensus-based and participatory ways of taking decisions.
All of the others are way too short. In particular, Jezza would not be value at anything less than 5,000-1.
Indeed, I would say there's an even chance our next PM isn't even on the list yet.
The problem the MPs are creating now is that their rebelliousness just plays into a narrative of breaking the captain's bats before the game.