Let's be honest, one Mick Philpott has more resonance than a hundred Polly or Owen Jones' articles, because its a real case and not a theoretical doo-dah.
Benefit-fiddling has always gone on and the extent will always be arguable (prosecutions are the ones you know about).
I remember working on the land (as a schoolboy) and having to knock off early so the gang van could bring us back to sign on. One morning in the summer both ends of our street were blocked off by police cars, and they went through our van checking on this particular fraud.
As a schoolboy, it was only an irritation, and there was no resentment. This was the mid-sixties, wage were low and the benefits were poor anyway. And land work was hard - there was no place to hide.
I've no idea what the current situation is, but I doubt that we're populated entirely by saints.
The £53 figure, is (and I'm sorry I haven't had time to read through this discussion - that's why I liked the "best rated" feature) the same, and I assume based on (?), JSA for under 25s. IDS would qualify for £67.50, but that aside, that's just JSA and excludes most notably housing benefit and any others that it might be fair to include.
As a student I could live on £53/week excluding housing, but only if I stuck to essentials - nothing left in the kitty for clothes, shoes, household items beyond toiletries, etc. I'll be honest, I'd be firstly at the mercy of events, and secondly, struggle to live on £53/week for more than about a month.
I just noted you made an accusation to bedroom tax and nastiness of TCPB (I don't know enough to know if he is or not) but his post talked about loss of Child Benefit
Since you had both his posts explicitly in front of you to read then maybe you now know at least enough that his posts went FAR further than merely mentioning something a detective passed comment on but self-evidently didn't then go on to make the kind of lunatic direct connection and smear by association TCPB did.
I am looking forward to Labour being back in charge and reversing all these "cuts"
What would happen if they didn't?
I don't know about "reversing all these cuts", but If they at least look like they are managing tough times fairly and competently, unlike Cameron's mob, they will probably be rewarded with a second term.
The Tory problem is that they can't sell their cuts as fair and necessary. Their whole approach looks and feels like a messy, opportunistic, ideological assault on the state and the poor, and rich boys looking after their rich chums.
Let's be honest, one Mick Philpott has more resonance than a hundred Polly or Owen Jones' articles, because its a real case and not a theoretical doo-dah.
Benefit-fiddling has always gone on and the extent will always be arguable (prosecutions are the ones you know about).
I remember working on the land (as a schoolboy) and having to knock off early so the gang van could bring us back to sign on. One morning in the summer both ends of our street were blocked off by police cars, and they went through our van checking on this particular fraud.
As a schoolboy, it was only an irritation, and there was no resentment. This was the mid-sixties, wage were low and the benefits were poor anyway. And land work was hard - there was no place to hide.
I've no idea what the current situation is, but I doubt that we're populated entirely by saints.
One Mick Philpott will certinaly resonate more than anything Polly Toynbee or Owen Jones write. However, those on here and elsewhere who complain about Labour opportunism and mendacity might want to reflect on the idea of using a convicted child killer as a stick with which to beat the welfare system.
Let's be honest, one Mick Philpott has more resonance than a hundred Polly or Owen Jones' articles, because its a real case and not a theoretical doo-dah.
Benefit-fiddling has always gone on and the extent will always be arguable (prosecutions are the ones you know about).
I remember working on the land (as a schoolboy) and having to knock off early so the gang van could bring us back to sign on. One morning in the summer both ends of our street were blocked off by police cars, and they went through our van checking on this particular fraud.
As a schoolboy, it was only an irritation, and there was no resentment. This was the mid-sixties, wage were low and the benefits were poor anyway. And land work was hard - there was no place to hide.
I've no idea what the current situation is, but I doubt that we're populated entirely by saints.
One Mick Philpott will certinaly resonate more than anything Polly Toynbee or Owen Jones write. However, those on here and elsewhere who complain about Labour opportunism and mendacity might want to reflect on the idea of using a convicted child killer as a stick with which to beat the welfare system.
Reading comments elsewhere today, I've come to the conclusion that like immigration, welfare reform is one of those topics where a sensible, rational debate isn't possible on the internet, and possibly in politics overall.
those on here and elsewhere who complain about Labour opportunism and mendacity might want to reflect on the idea of using a convicted child killer as a stick with which to beat the welfare system.
Sorry mate, you are just too boring to communicates wif derp derp derp.
Welfare reform: It's class war, but not in the way you'd expect The Left appears to think welfare reform is sacrilegious – but to the dismay of hand-wringing commentators, those trapped on benefits take a very different view
Carl - I'm not sure "looking like they are managing" will be enough? The Press will bang on and bang on with past comments and expectations will be more. If they prove no different to the Tories, it will come back to haunt them.
Just went to my Facebook page and there is some serious vitriol against benefits claimants.
"The slobs have ruined this country".
This isn't the Daily Mail either. This is a snapshot of my Valleys friends; all familiar with shell-suits and miners' strikes and dancing around their handbags. Real people.
See, the liberal intellegensia like Toynbee and Owen Jones pretend to know the craic but WE live at the front end. We know and we see who the scroungers are.
Great post, Fenster. An early candidate for post of the year.
In but a few paragraphs you have managed to unite of coalition of PB Lefties against you.
You need to assemble a local Valleys team of hard working worthies and challenge the PB ideological wimps to a game of Rugby.
The Fenster All Comers Benefits Match.
All the Reds need to do now is work out in which positions each should play.
Southam Observer is a natural captain. His weakness is that he might start playing for the Blues when no one is looking. Best play him at scrum half so he can switch the direction of play at will.
Pork loves a good scrummage in the mud and is prize second row material.
Mark Senior hasn't seen a full meal in decades so will need to be placed far out on the furthest wing to avoid injury.
Yorkcity is good sold Northern stock. Ideal for the front row.
Carl appears good with his foot so can play fly half. Just keep it out of his mouth and its owner away from any strategic decisions.
Have I left anyone out?
Oh yes, tim.
He can be the ball.
Edit: hucks67 would have qualified to play had he not been suspended for arguing with the referee.
Fenster's post is just typical anecdotal made up fiction but every pbtory will nod sagely and believe it as gospel .
Which bit is made up? Would you like me to copy and post the thread? It's probably gone on a few levels now. I'll check.
You see Mr Senior, I live here at the coalface. Not in some cuddly, molley-coddled English hamlet where teenage cub-scouts help old dears cross the road.
You disdain me as someone dishing out apocryphals because you are scared. The system is fecked and breaking this idiotic welfarism culture will be hugely popular. And popular amongst the working class more than anyone else. The very voters the LIb Dems and Labour are trying to suck up to. You can keep the workshy. Meanwhile the Tories can attempt to hoover votes from those they've helped put a foot onto a ladder.
Osbrowne leading the charge with a Romney master strategy on welfare.
How he's going to pull that one off when the toxic liability will be hiding during the next election campaign (just like the last time) doesn't seem to even have occurred to the tea party tories. As usual.
The quiet man who the tories dumped after his 'inspirational leadership' racks up 300,000 on an e-petition quicker than an MP can claim expenses for bluetooth headset.
Like this one.
Iain Duncan Smith has claimed he could live on £53 per week - the amount given to some benefit claimants. The Work and Pensions Secretary said he could survive on £7.57 per day if he "had to", as he defended a raft of cuts to welfare payments coming into force today.
He'd have to cut back a bit if he did so. According to his parliamentary expenses, he spent £110 - two week's worth of benefits - on a Bose bluetooth headset for his car, and another £12.42 on a USB cable (I mean, come on, who spends more than a fiver on a USB cable?). His monthly phone bill has been over £53 every month in the latest financial year, so that's another week each month he can't eat, travel, heat his house or, really do anything. And given he can claim for travel, he may have forgotten that that £5.30 he spent on taking one tube trip within his constituency also comes out of the £53. Just ten of them and he'd go hungry.
What a non story, the local party will select it's candidate in a few days time from a short list provided by HQ. All candidates in all constituencies are locally selected so what point are you trying to make or are you just pontificating for the sake of it. Come on get a grip
Carl - I'm not sure "looking like they are managing" will be enough? The Press will bang on and bang on with past comments and expectations will be more. If they prove no different to the Tories, it will come back to haunt them.
The point is that competence and fairness in managing austerity would mark them out as very different from Cameron and his Tories.
Fenster's post is just typical anecdotal made up fiction but every pbtory will nod sagely and believe it as gospel .
Which bit is made up? Would you like me to copy and post the thread? It's probably gone on a few levels now. I'll check.
You see Mr Senior, I live here at the coalface. Not in some cuddly, molley-coddled English hamlet where teenage cub-scouts help old dears cross the road.
You disdain me as someone dishing out apocryphals because you are scared. The system is fecked and breaking this idiotic welfarism culture will be hugely popular. And popular amongst the working class more than anyone else. The very voters the LIb Dems and Labour are trying to suck up to. You can keep the workshy. Meanwhile the Tories can attempt to hoover votes from those they've helped put a foot onto a ladder.
Which Labour seats do you expect the Tories to win in 2015 as result of this policy?
Why aren't you alerting the authorities to the abuses of the system that you are familiar with?
I think with the £10,000 cap in place (which, if I've done my sums right, is slightly less than the minimum wage) the government should consider a negative rate of tax for the lowest paid. That is to say, you submit your earnings through PAYE, and the government tops them up. I'm not saying that it should necessarily be adopted, but it would have some significant benefits (it could also replace particular types of tax credits) - it would affect people earning under £10,000 which a further rise in PA would not; it would incentivise work, fraud (as far as I've considered it) would fundamentally be the same as current tax fraud. (Over-reporting your income would have all sorts of consequences for other benefits, etc., as well.)
"Eighteen months ago, shadow minister Tessa Jowell unveiled a report which called for older people — so-called ‘empty nesters’ — to be taxed out of their homes. The idea was that this would free up accommodation for young families — precisely the intention of the latest reform. The report, endorsed by Jowell, said: ‘While younger families are increasingly being squeezed into small flats and under-sized houses, older people are often rattling around in big houses with many bedrooms standing empty, often for years.’ "
Talk about pots and kettles. When Labour wanted to encourage people to downsize it was called ‘fairness’. When the Coalition does the same, it’s condemned as yet another example of the ‘savage cuts’.
Fenster's post is just typical anecdotal made up fiction but every pbtory will nod sagely and believe it as gospel .
Which bit is made up? Would you like me to copy and post the thread? It's probably gone on a few levels now. I'll check.
You see Mr Senior, I live here at the coalface. Not in some cuddly, molley-coddled English hamlet where teenage cub-scouts help old dears cross the road.
You disdain me as someone dishing out apocryphals because you are scared. The system is fecked and breaking this idiotic welfarism culture will be hugely popular. And popular amongst the working class more than anyone else. The very voters the LIb Dems and Labour are trying to suck up to. You can keep the workshy. Meanwhile the Tories can attempt to hoover votes from those they've helped put a foot onto a ladder.
Why have you not reported these fraudsters or the most flagrant of them ? You can even do it anonymously .
What a non story, the local party will select it's candidate in a few days time from a short list provided by HQ. All candidates in all constituencies are locally selected so what point are you trying to make or are you just pontificating for the sake of it. Come on get a grip
Miliband's selection suggests its not always as simple as that....the local party will be very alert to any NEC shenanigans
You see Mr Senior, I live here at the coalface. Not in some cuddly, molley-coddled English hamlet where teenage cub-scouts help old dears cross the road.
*falls off cat crying with laughter*
Just the thing to lighten the mood. It's like Look back in anger crossed with a harrowing Mike Leigh script.
I don't know who the moron is that Pork is quoting, but suggesting that IDS couldn't survive on benefits because the expenses he incurs in the course of his employment exceed what he would receive in benefits, is one of the stupidest comments ever posted on PB.
"Fenster's post is just typical anecdotal made up fiction but every pbtory will nod sagely and believe it as gospel . "
Has he forgot there is no more likes on here that he always used to try and accumulate.
He should go and get the claptrap somewhere else.
.
Fecking hell, not another soppy-faced wannabe from Labour HQ. Mr YorkCity himself.
Come over to my village my friend. Have the balls to leave your gilded little sanctuary and enter the ghetto here in South Wales. I'll show you a few tricks. A few copper-bottomed tricks, which work a treat. If you don't believe benefit fraud isn't at full throttle then come spend a few hours with me.
And as for your feeble efforts to swat me away as some uber, like-seeking Tory, why don't you take the time to read my previous posts (all of them, go on) and then re-evaluate what type of political supporter I am. Because I am very sure that I'm more liberal than you and I am also intelligent enough not to parrot every single party line given to me by Labour HQ for fear Ed Balls might frighten me to death with his 20 yard scare.
And anyway, welfare reform isn't (and shouldn't be) a divisive party-lines issue. It should be, as I've said below, based on FAIRNESS. Unfortunately, many, many people took the piss out of the system and cost those who were desperately in need of help, less help. Also unfortunately for you sanctimonious, unthinking, unworldly and probably sexually-repressed Labour lackeys who try to defend the mice on your front bench, most of these benefit fraudsters are probably Labour supporters too. Because they know your party is the one they are most likely to get away with it under. At the expense of the rest of us.
There are decent, excellent, reforming, talented people in the Labour party. Unfortunately for them, their representation on the Labour front bench is getting thinner. If existent at all.
And btw, I'm 35. I've been in work since I was 17. The fraudulency began around the late 90s, and I was still growing up then (in my own mind anyway).
You can never expect logic where politics is involved. It's an arms race to the bottom.
A righty ... the scale of benefit fraud is too high. A lefty ... it doesn't exist, and anyway, the bankers blah, blah, blah.
Todays Micky Mouse argument about statistics is an example. It depends on when you set the beginning and end of your measurement period. I'm nearly always asleep between midnight and 6am. Conversely, I'm nearly always awake in the daytime. A politician would draw two different conclusions about my laziness from this.
I was going to suggest we need more scientists as MPs but the climate change debate has also gone juvenile.
"Fenster's post is just typical anecdotal made up fiction but every pbtory will nod sagely and believe it as gospel."
In areas where the local industry was all off-shored or closed down in one go so whole communities went into long-term unemployment all at the same time the old shame culture held together by peer pressure broke down and gradually changed into the shameless one - also via peer pressure. There's a percentage like that elsewhere as well but not as high as some people seem to think.
This greatly annoys the sort of low-income workers that are never seen on the telly because it would mess up the subhumanizing that's been ongoing for a while now.
The mistake the Tories will make won't be pointing this reality out but extrapolating it too far and taking it over the "fair" line because they don't know where it is (or don't care).
"Older people should be taxed out of their family homes to free up space for younger generations, says a report backed by Labour.
It argues that 'empty nesters' in their 60s are taking up too much room and should be 'encouraged' by a new 'land tax' to downsize to smaller homes.
Labour MP Tessa Jowell sponsored the report's launch in a Commons hospitality room yesterday, saying the current situation ran against Ed Miliband's vision for Britain.
Which is exactly why he said he could "if [he] had to"
He didn't say it would be easy, or an enjoyable lifestyle, or that it wouldn't involve sacrifice. Just that he "could".
Then let him. 300,000 and rising think it might be a good idea for "we're all in this together" to actually mean something rather than the inept PR slogan of a bunch of out of touch incompetents.
If you posture like a peacock in politics, don't complain when you get called out on it.
I increasingly feel that this referendum could be a lot closer than the polls are saying. Mix in another a year of Westminster enforced austerity and TeamScotland pulling a TeamGB after the Glasgow games and you could see something happen.
Mr. Pork, he doesn't have to. He's got a job, he works long hours, he gets paid a decent wage.
As for petitions, one in America got sufficient backing as to warrant an official response. As it turns out, the US will not be seeking to build a Death Star.
And apologies to Mike and the moderators. I haven't had a full-on mob-swarm from the lefties before so I felt as though I needed to defend myself.
The quotes I put on line were bona fide, genuine. Probably inflamed as a result of an FB posting combined with the video of that woman ranting about her benefit decreases costing her fags.
The point is, even I was surprised at the vitriol now being dished out at benefit scroungers who are fit to work. The squeeze on peoples' money, whether working or not, is causing an uptick in agitation, and those who are genuinely frauding the system are starting to get targetted. I happen to think they've gotten away with it too long.
I know for certain that people are finding it harder to get away with things under the coalition. My friend is a plumber and he's religiously putting everything through the books at present for fear of being busted; avoiding cvash jobs.. If the squeeze is on then that's a good thing, because fraud is fraud, whatever way you dress it up.
I increasingly feel that this referendum could be a lot closer than the polls are saying. Mix in another a year of Westminster enforced austerity and TeamScotland pulling a TeamGB after the Glasgow games and you could see something happen.
I backed Yes to win last year.
I'm quietly confident it could be a winner.
The No side, really need to talk about the positive side of the Union, rather than the negative side of Independence.
"Older people should be taxed out of their family homes to free up space for younger generations, says a report backed by Labour.
It argues that 'empty nesters' in their 60s are taking up too much room and should be 'encouraged' by a new 'land tax' to downsize to smaller homes.
Labour MP Tessa Jowell sponsored the report's launch in a Commons hospitality room yesterday, saying the current situation ran against Ed Miliband's vision for Britain.
Mr. Jonathan, I've long been of the view that *if* Scotland did vote to separate that would massively benefit (at the next General Election) the SNP and, to a lesser extent, the Conservatives. When people vote with negotiation of partition in mind the Scots will want the nationalists at the table, and I doubt the English will want to party of Brown and Darling negotiating on their behalf.
Why? That would be pointless. People should get paid for the work they do. You can argue about what the market rate should be for a cabinet minister, but it's not the same rate as unemployment benefit.
300,000 and rising think it might be a good idea for "we're all in this together" to actually mean something rather than the inept PR slogan of a bunch of out of touch incompetents.
≈ Actually, not really. It's a p1ss poor effort, redolent of the fact that this is a pointless partisan stunt. When 40% of the voters are supposed to support Labour, getting less than 1% to sign something that takes literally zero effort is pathetic.
If you posture like a peacock in politics, don't complain when you get called out on it.
He wasn't posturing. He answered a straight question with a straight answer. You could reasonably argue it was a missed opportunity, but it wasn't posturing.
Then he shouldn't have postured on it, should he? Unless you think it's a jolly good idea for the out of touch chumocracy to keep this Romney like level of idiocy up.
one in America got sufficient backing as to warrant an official response. As it turns out, the US will not be seeking to build a Death Star.
Seriously? That's the best you have? You think we don't remember when the PB tories were bleating about the hanging petition? We can compare stats on that if you like.
You don't think everyone here knows if a petition on a right wing issue got that many people behind it that fast the PB tories would NEVER shut up about it?
Mr. Jonathan, I've long been of the view that *if* Scotland did vote to separate that would massively benefit (at the next General Election) the SNP and, to a lesser extent, the Conservatives. When people vote with negotiation of partition in mind the Scots will want the nationalists at the table, and I doubt the English will want to party of Brown and Darling negotiating on their behalf.
It really is the elephant in the room when contemplating the 2015 outcome.
What an amazing period of politics we are about to enter...
We could see UKIP 'win' the 2014 Euros, Scotland leave the UK, Cameron become the last British PM, and then be forced to negotiate an exit from the EU.
It was pandering to bigots that hated immigrants and any benefits etc etc
Same in this country with Europe, immigration and welfare. You start off by going for the cheap populist vote. But all you do is create a monster you can never satisfy.
Benefit fraud is a crime. Taking advantage of the system isn't. Tax evasion is a crime. Tax avoidance isn't. Fiddling your expenses is a crime. Claiming expenses within - if not in 'the spirit' of - the rules isn't.
People, on the whole, size up the risks and go for what they can get. That's the same whatever your 'status' and whoever you vote for.
Mr. Jonathan, I've long been of the view that *if* Scotland did vote to separate that would massively benefit (at the next General Election) the SNP and, to a lesser extent, the Conservatives. When people vote with negotiation of partition in mind the Scots will want the nationalists at the table, and I doubt the English will want to party of Brown and Darling negotiating on their behalf.
It really is the elephant in the room when contemplating the 2015 outcome.
What an amazing period of politics we are about to enter...
We could see UKIP 'win' the 2014 Euros, Scotland leave the UK, Cameron become the last British PM, and then be forced to negotiate an exit from the EU.
If Scotland votes for Independence, they wouldn't leave immediately, I think the plan is by 2016.
We could have an interesting election in 2015.
Ed becomes PM, purely thanks to Scottish MPs, then come May 2016, his majority is wiped out just like that, and Cameron becomes PM of Carry on UK.
Fenster's post is just typical anecdotal made up fiction but every pbtory will nod sagely and believe it as gospel .
Which bit is made up? Would you like me to copy and post the thread? It's probably gone on a few levels now. I'll check.
You see Mr Senior, I live here at the coalface. Not in some cuddly, molley-coddled English hamlet where teenage cub-scouts help old dears cross the road.
You disdain me as someone dishing out apocryphals because you are scared. The system is fecked and breaking this idiotic welfarism culture will be hugely popular. And popular amongst the working class more than anyone else. The very voters the LIb Dems and Labour are trying to suck up to. You can keep the workshy. Meanwhile the Tories can attempt to hoover votes from those they've helped put a foot onto a ladder.
Why have you not reported these fraudsters or the most flagrant of them ? You can even do it anonymously .
They aren't all fraudsters you dimwit. These are people with bad backs, and depression, or acute anxiety, or ME, or white finger or whatever other spurious illness is de rigeur.
The guy with the caravanette is well known. He had a motorbike accident about 25 years back and had his leg shortened as a result. A genuine injury, a nasty op. He has never worked since, ever. And has claimed (successfully) for everything. It doesn't stop him going out drinking and boogeying on the dancefloor each weekend, and it never will. Socially, he's a nice enough guy too. But he has conned the system for God knows how much.
It was pandering to bigots that hated immigrants and any benefits etc etc
Same in this country with Europe, immigration and welfare. You start off by going for the cheap populist vote. But all you do is create a monster you can never satisfy.
Hence why UKIP keep on rising and rising.
Short memory. It was hugging gay huskies that led to the Ukip surge.
300,000 and rising think it might be a good idea for "we're all in this together" to actually mean something rather than the inept PR slogan of a bunch of out of touch incompetents.
Actually, not really. It's a p1ss poor effort, redolent of the fact that this is a pointless partisan stunt. When 40% of the voters are supposed to support Labour, getting less than 1% to sign something that takes literally zero effort is pathetic.
If it's got a Cameroon like yourself this upset then that speaks volumes. That 300,000 is a good deal more than 10 times the vote IDS was elected on in case you were wondering.
He wasn't posturing. He answered a straight question with a straight answer. You could reasonably argue it was a missed opportunity, but it wasn't posturing.
You see Mr Senior, I live here at the coalface. Not in some cuddly, molley-coddled English hamlet where teenage cub-scouts help old dears cross the road.
*falls off cat crying with laughter*
Just the thing to lighten the mood. It's like Look back in anger crossed with a harrowing Mike Leigh script.
Superb!
? I find it difficult understanding you. I can only imagine you have severe difficulties enjoying normal relations with people. For that you have my sympathy.
I'm certain it's not the only thing you have great trouble understanding. What with 'knowing at least hundreds of people who are at it'. A terrible burden on your memory isn't it? That and your harrowing life on the "coal face".
Fenster's post is just typical anecdotal made up fiction but every pbtory will nod sagely and believe it as gospel .
Which bit is made up? Would you like me to copy and post the thread? It's probably gone on a few levels now. I'll check.
You see Mr Senior, I live here at the coalface. Not in some cuddly, molley-coddled English hamlet where teenage cub-scouts help old dears cross the road.
You disdain me as someone dishing out apocryphals because you are scared. The system is fecked and breaking this idiotic welfarism culture will be hugely popular. And popular amongst the working class more than anyone else. The very voters the LIb Dems and Labour are trying to suck up to. You can keep the workshy. Meanwhile the Tories can attempt to hoover votes from those they've helped put a foot onto a ladder.
Which Labour seats do you expect the Tories to win in 2015 as result of this policy?
Why aren't you alerting the authorities to the abuses of the system that you are familiar with?
1. I doubt the Tories will gain much in the marginals through this policy. And I dont care about that. This Tory government has been relatively poor and I have no emotional interest in their GE2015 prospects. What I do care about is that balance is brought to the welfare system to a) make it fairer, especially for those genuinely in need and b) that being in work ALWAYS pays more than being out of work. Because that system of making work pay will incrementally benefit the country inperpetuity.
2. As mentioned elsewhere, not all the 'abuses' are illegal or easy to nail as fraud. There is a clever system being played by people, doctors, solicitors and social-workers where benefits can be gained for a variety of hard-to-rule-out ailments. Acute anxiety, ME, depression are all easy numbers. I know a boy who was told to get a job or lose benefits (there is nothing wrong with him, he's just a lazy bastard who smokes tumps of weed) and he played the suicide card. Got his mother (also on benefits with depression) to throw in a few tears, say he'd tried taking an overdose etc, and that the thought of work would kill him, and hey presto, he was signed back on as too ill to work. But whay would you do if you were a doctor or social worker? If he'd gone and killed himself they'd feel very bad about it.. It's a tough, testy, manipulative and clever underworld out there. I live among it. I know boys on disability who play rugby. It's just the way it is. Get caught and you get in serious trouble. It's all a game.
OwenJones84 The utter shameless, grotesque, vile mentality of a "newspaper" that uses the killing of 6 kids for political purposes and to inflame hatred
When will they learn? You create a monster on the right you can never satisfy. So you feed it more and more until you are nowhere near the center ground and then you get beat.
Last year I said I wanted a general strike, as it had been ages since we last had one.
Looks like we may get one
Unite, Britain’s biggest trade union, is urging other unions to join forces to stage a 24-hour general strike in what it privately admits would be an “explicitly political” attack against the government.
Please remind me if the Tories abolished the Minimum Wage. Or, did they repeal the Seat Belt legislation ? They were loud in their condemnation.
Since it was the Thatcher government which introduced the compulsory seat-belt legislation, that seems rather unlikely, unless I'm going completely gaga:
Mr. Jonathan, a very good summary of the interesting times in which we live (and following the financial crisis, Hung Parliament and Arab Spring, of course).
I'm certain it's not the only thing you have great trouble understanding. What with 'knowing at least hundreds of people who are at it'. A terrible burden on your memory isn't it? That and your harrowing life on the "coal face".
I can only imagine you have severe difficulties enjoying normal relations with people.
Well we can't all have the active lifestyle with the angry imaginary friends on facebook you appear to enjoy, can we?
Try harder, this is painfully bad stuff, even for a PB tory.
The people I quoted are real and the quotes are real. They are online now. My grandfather and my (mother's brother) uncle were both miners, and lost their jobs after the 80 strikes. My Gramp worked over 40 years for the NCB. I didn't vote at the last election because I was on holiday. If my belief in the legalisation of drugs, a desire for Palestinian state, free child care, reform of the House of Lords and a reduction in the amount of MPs to below 400 marks me out as a PB Tory then fine.
At least I am willing to make clear what I believe in, rather than continuously infect the board with my ridiculing of everyone else for what they believe in. You're a pub bore.
It's a shame the kippers and Farage might eventually have to explain those rather puzzling words he is alleged to have used to describe certain voters.
OwenJones84 The utter shameless, grotesque, vile mentality of a "newspaper" that uses the killing of 6 kids for political purposes and to inflame hatred
I have to agree with that really. I know it is massive news and it has to be reported. But the deaths of children is hard for me to think about, especially when I have two young children sleeping soundly right now. It's just awful.
benedictbrogan EXC Theresa May has told the Cabinet privately she is ready to speed up visa process for Chinese visitors telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/…
I didn't vote at the last election because I was on holiday.
Your staunch commitment to those issues you hold dear and believe in would inspire even your coal working forebears.
You also appear to have trouble working out what is boring and what is not going by your amusingly confused attitude to replying to posters.
I'd say you were eccentric but that much is evident from your posts anyway.
Then I'm afraid you have me completely wrong. Perhaps I'm right of centre on some economic issues, but much further left of centre on social ones. Definitely not eccentric either, and I don't want to leave the EU. My A-Level History and study of the Second World War steers me away from that.
I have no idea where you stand. You are too busy doing your passive/aggressive digs on other voters to reveal any studied policies of your own.
Comments
Let's be honest, one Mick Philpott has more resonance than a hundred Polly or Owen Jones' articles, because its a real case and not a theoretical doo-dah.
Benefit-fiddling has always gone on and the extent will always be arguable (prosecutions are the ones you know about).
I remember working on the land (as a schoolboy) and having to knock off early so the gang van could bring us back to sign on. One morning in the summer both ends of our street were blocked off by police cars, and they went through our van checking on this particular fraud.
As a schoolboy, it was only an irritation, and there was no resentment. This was the mid-sixties, wage were low and the benefits were poor anyway. And land work was hard - there was no place to hide.
I've no idea what the current situation is, but I doubt that we're populated entirely by saints.
As a student I could live on £53/week excluding housing, but only if I stuck to essentials - nothing left in the kitty for clothes, shoes, household items beyond toiletries, etc. I'll be honest, I'd be firstly at the mercy of events, and secondly, struggle to live on £53/week for more than about a month.
"Has he forgot there is no more likes on here that he always used to try and accumulate.
He should go and get the claptrap somewhere else."
I can't spot a counter-argument there myself, which is my point.
Dreadful but sadly not surprising news regarding the Philpotts.
The Tory problem is that they can't sell their cuts as fair and necessary. Their whole approach looks and feels like a messy, opportunistic, ideological assault on the state and the poor, and rich boys looking after their rich chums.
Rumour in the papers that Raikkonen might replace Webber
The Left appears to think welfare reform is sacrilegious – but to the dismay of hand-wringing commentators, those trapped on benefits take a very different view
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9966722/Welfare-reform-Its-class-war-but-not-in-the-way-youd-expect.html
I'm not sure Kimi Raikkonen and team orders are necessarily a natural fit.
In but a few paragraphs you have managed to unite of coalition of PB Lefties against you.
You need to assemble a local Valleys team of hard working worthies and challenge the PB ideological wimps to a game of Rugby.
The Fenster All Comers Benefits Match.
All the Reds need to do now is work out in which positions each should play.
Southam Observer is a natural captain. His weakness is that he might start playing for the Blues when no one is looking. Best play him at scrum half so he can switch the direction of play at will.
Pork loves a good scrummage in the mud and is prize second row material.
Mark Senior hasn't seen a full meal in decades so will need to be placed far out on the furthest wing to avoid injury.
Yorkcity is good sold Northern stock. Ideal for the front row.
Carl appears good with his foot so can play fly half. Just keep it out of his mouth and its owner away from any strategic decisions.
Have I left anyone out?
Oh yes, tim.
He can be the ball.
Edit: hucks67 would have qualified to play had he not been suspended for arguing with the referee.
By the time the Tories were back in power, Labour had shifted most of the low paid jobs over to China or onto immigrants.
You see Mr Senior, I live here at the coalface. Not in some cuddly, molley-coddled English hamlet where teenage cub-scouts help old dears cross the road.
You disdain me as someone dishing out apocryphals because you are scared. The system is fecked and breaking this idiotic welfarism culture will be hugely popular. And popular amongst the working class more than anyone else. The very voters the LIb Dems and Labour are trying to suck up to. You can keep the workshy. Meanwhile the Tories can attempt to hoover votes from those they've helped put a foot onto a ladder.
Oh dear.
How he's going to pull that one off when the toxic liability will be hiding during the next election campaign (just like the last time) doesn't seem to even have occurred to the tea party tories. As usual.
The quiet man who the tories dumped after his 'inspirational leadership' racks up 300,000 on an e-petition quicker than an MP can claim expenses for bluetooth headset.
Like this one.
All candidates in all constituencies are locally selected so what point are you trying to make or are you just pontificating for the sake of it. Come on get a grip
Why aren't you alerting the authorities to the abuses of the system that you are familiar with?
Any chance of a new thread that might trigger a rare non partisan debate on PB ??????
Think this thread has been done to death, with the usual boring PB Tories v Tim. It starts off ok, but just drags on.
Perhaps PBers can point out some flaws.
Of course Lynsey Hanley would hate it
"Eighteen months ago, shadow minister Tessa Jowell unveiled a report which called for older people — so-called ‘empty nesters’ — to be taxed out of their homes.
The idea was that this would free up accommodation for young families — precisely the intention of the latest reform.
The report, endorsed by Jowell, said: ‘While younger families are increasingly being squeezed into small flats and under-sized houses, older people are often rattling around in big houses with many bedrooms standing empty, often for years.’ "
Talk about pots and kettles. When Labour wanted to encourage people to downsize it was called ‘fairness’. When the Coalition does the same, it’s condemned as yet another example of the ‘savage cuts’.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2302481/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-Now-day-April-Fools-Day.html#ixzz2PLC4AR4M
*falls off cat crying with laughter*
Just the thing to lighten the mood.
It's like Look back in anger crossed with a harrowing Mike Leigh script.
Superb!
Not on this site anyway, but then so few subjects are these days. Shame really.
He didn't say it would be easy, or an enjoyable lifestyle, or that it wouldn't involve sacrifice. Just that he "could".
And there is considerable competition.
Come over to my village my friend. Have the balls to leave your gilded little sanctuary and enter the ghetto here in South Wales. I'll show you a few tricks. A few copper-bottomed tricks, which work a treat. If you don't believe benefit fraud isn't at full throttle then come spend a few hours with me.
And as for your feeble efforts to swat me away as some uber, like-seeking Tory, why don't you take the time to read my previous posts (all of them, go on) and then re-evaluate what type of political supporter I am. Because I am very sure that I'm more liberal than you and I am also intelligent enough not to parrot every single party line given to me by Labour HQ for fear Ed Balls might frighten me to death with his 20 yard scare.
And anyway, welfare reform isn't (and shouldn't be) a divisive party-lines issue. It should be, as I've said below, based on FAIRNESS. Unfortunately, many, many people took the piss out of the system and cost those who were desperately in need of help, less help. Also unfortunately for you sanctimonious, unthinking, unworldly and probably sexually-repressed Labour lackeys who try to defend the mice on your front bench, most of these benefit fraudsters are probably Labour supporters too. Because they know your party is the one they are most likely to get away with it under. At the expense of the rest of us.
There are decent, excellent, reforming, talented people in the Labour party. Unfortunately for them, their representation on the Labour front bench is getting thinner. If existent at all.
And btw, I'm 35. I've been in work since I was 17. The fraudulency began around the late 90s, and I was still growing up then (in my own mind anyway).
SO,
You can never expect logic where politics is involved. It's an arms race to the bottom.
A righty ... the scale of benefit fraud is too high. A lefty ... it doesn't exist, and anyway, the bankers blah, blah, blah.
Todays Micky Mouse argument about statistics is an example. It depends on when you set the beginning and end of your measurement period. I'm nearly always asleep between midnight and 6am. Conversely, I'm nearly always awake in the daytime. A politician would draw two different conclusions about my laziness from this.
I was going to suggest we need more scientists as MPs but the climate change debate has also gone juvenile.
In areas where the local industry was all off-shored or closed down in one go so whole communities went into long-term unemployment all at the same time the old shame culture held together by peer pressure broke down and gradually changed into the shameless one - also via peer pressure. There's a percentage like that elsewhere as well but not as high as some people seem to think.
This greatly annoys the sort of low-income workers that are never seen on the telly because it would mess up the subhumanizing that's been ongoing for a while now.
The mistake the Tories will make won't be pointing this reality out but extrapolating it too far and taking it over the "fair" line because they don't know where it is (or don't care).
The SNP could use Labour’s promise to maintain coalition austerity policies to increase union support.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/04/how-scottish-trade-unions-are-shifting-favour-independence
It argues that 'empty nesters' in their 60s are taking up too much room and should be 'encouraged' by a new 'land tax' to downsize to smaller homes.
Labour MP Tessa Jowell sponsored the report's launch in a Commons hospitality room yesterday, saying the current situation ran against Ed Miliband's vision for Britain.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2050800/Over-60-bedroom-blockers-taxed-homes.html#ixzz2PLEOSJUb
300,000 and rising think it might be a good idea for "we're all in this together" to actually mean something rather than the inept PR slogan of a bunch of out of touch incompetents.
If you posture like a peacock in politics, don't complain when you get called out on it.
As for petitions, one in America got sufficient backing as to warrant an official response. As it turns out, the US will not be seeking to build a Death Star.
That's what happens when the party tries to pander to lonely old white men on the internet. Destroyed the Republicans and will destroy the Tories too.
Surprise, surprise.
The quotes I put on line were bona fide, genuine. Probably inflamed as a result of an FB posting combined with the video of that woman ranting about her benefit decreases costing her fags.
The point is, even I was surprised at the vitriol now being dished out at benefit scroungers who are fit to work. The squeeze on peoples' money, whether working or not, is causing an uptick in agitation, and those who are genuinely frauding the system are starting to get targetted. I happen to think they've gotten away with it too long.
I know for certain that people are finding it harder to get away with things under the coalition. My friend is a plumber and he's religiously putting everything through the books at present for fear of being busted; avoiding cvash jobs.. If the squeeze is on then that's a good thing, because fraud is fraud, whatever way you dress it up.
I'm quietly confident it could be a winner.
The No side, really need to talk about the positive side of the Union, rather than the negative side of Independence.
Actually, not really. It's a p1ss poor effort, redolent of the fact that this is a pointless partisan stunt. When 40% of the voters are supposed to support Labour, getting less than 1% to sign something that takes literally zero effort is pathetic. He wasn't posturing. He answered a straight question with a straight answer. You could reasonably argue it was a missed opportunity, but it wasn't posturing.
The Tory/Republican problem is they are pandering to their big business donors and *not* pandering to their actual voters.
Come to York you might like it.
Labour HQ get a life.
You don't think everyone here knows if a petition on a right wing issue got that many people behind it that fast the PB tories would NEVER shut up about it?
Pull the other one chum.
What an amazing period of politics we are about to enter...
We could see UKIP 'win' the 2014 Euros, Scotland leave the UK, Cameron become the last British PM, and then be forced to negotiate an exit from the EU.
Same in this country with Europe, immigration and welfare. You start off by going for the cheap populist vote. But all you do is create a monster you can never satisfy.
Hence why UKIP keep on rising and rising.
People, on the whole, size up the risks and go for what they can get. That's the same whatever your 'status' and whoever you vote for.
We could have an interesting election in 2015.
Ed becomes PM, purely thanks to Scottish MPs, then come May 2016, his majority is wiped out just like that, and Cameron becomes PM of Carry on UK.
The guy with the caravanette is well known. He had a motorbike accident about 25 years back and had his leg shortened as a result. A genuine injury, a nasty op. He has never worked since, ever. And has claimed (successfully) for everything. It doesn't stop him going out drinking and boogeying on the dancefloor each weekend, and it never will. Socially, he's a nice enough guy too. But he has conned the system for God knows how much.
Sure, sure. Pointless for a politician to actually show you mean what you say. Course it is.
If it's got a Cameroon like yourself this upset then that speaks volumes.
That 300,000 is a good deal more than 10 times the vote IDS was elected on in case you were wondering.
Is he doing it? No? Then it's posturing.
Freezing elderly English people to death.
Turfing them out of their homes.
Beginning to look a bit like a pogrom.
Great idea wasn't it IDS?
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/319193925019643904/photo/1
Benefit reforms: Iain Duncan Smith 'has lived on breadline'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22006841
For that you have my laughter. Well we can't all have the active lifestyle with the angry imaginary friends on facebook you appear to enjoy, can we?
Try harder, this is painfully bad stuff, even for a PB tory.
You demonstrate you have no idea what you are talking about. UKIP polled 0% after hug a hoodie etc etc.
It has been Cameron going on about the EU and welfare that has seen them surge.
2. As mentioned elsewhere, not all the 'abuses' are illegal or easy to nail as fraud. There is a clever system being played by people, doctors, solicitors and social-workers where benefits can be gained for a variety of hard-to-rule-out ailments. Acute anxiety, ME, depression are all easy numbers. I know a boy who was told to get a job or lose benefits (there is nothing wrong with him, he's just a lazy bastard who smokes tumps of weed) and he played the suicide card. Got his mother (also on benefits with depression) to throw in a few tears, say he'd tried taking an overdose etc, and that the thought of work would kill him, and hey presto, he was signed back on as too ill to work. But whay would you do if you were a doctor or social worker? If he'd gone and killed himself they'd feel very bad about it.. It's a tough, testy, manipulative and clever underworld out there. I live among it. I know boys on disability who play rugby. It's just the way it is. Get caught and you get in serious trouble. It's all a game.
A cunning stunt indeed for IDS. Or something along those lines.
The quiet man just doesn't know when to shut up, does he?
York got their fist win in 17 games.
If they get relegated , I think they will fold, from what I have heard.
When will they learn? You create a monster on the right you can never satisfy. So you feed it more and more until you are nowhere near the center ground and then you get beat.
Looks like we may get one
Unite, Britain’s biggest trade union, is urging other unions to join forces to stage a 24-hour general strike in what it privately admits would be an “explicitly political” attack against the government.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/23168ae6-9ba3-11e2-8485-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2PLMhWphw
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/31/newsid_2505000/2505871.stm
My grandfather and my (mother's brother) uncle were both miners, and lost their jobs after the 80 strikes. My Gramp worked over 40 years for the NCB.
I didn't vote at the last election because I was on holiday.
If my belief in the legalisation of drugs, a desire for Palestinian state, free child care, reform of the House of Lords and a reduction in the amount of MPs to below 400 marks me out as a PB Tory then fine.
At least I am willing to make clear what I believe in, rather than continuously infect the board with my ridiculing of everyone else for what they believe in. You're a pub bore.
http://iaindale.blogspot.co.uk/2006/04/question-nigel-farage-must-answer.html
Curious that this has popped up again just before the May locals, isn't it?
Just fell out of the closet, Pork.
Purely coincidental.
You also appear to have trouble working out what is boring and what is not going by your amusingly confused attitude to replying to posters.
I'd say you were eccentric but that much is evident from your posts anyway.
If it happens believe we would be first club to get promotion to the football league then get relegated the year after.
From what I have heard all the finances and the new ground are based on the status of staying in the league.
That is why they went for the new manager Nigel Worthington.
I have no idea where you stand. You are too busy doing your passive/aggressive digs on other voters to reveal any studied policies of your own.
Dacre is scum though. You always have to remember that.
Possibly their most controversial front page since their Stephen Lawrence murderers front page
If you don't want it back then don't be so free to dish it out.