Very keen to see May in place. Thinks Leadsom is a total flake. Is content with Norway option.
The mists are beginning to disperse, and a way ahead emerges....
Is that content with Norway option after being given a positive description of it? I suspect people may change their minds when UKIP is heavily covered in the media pointing out that it will barely affect immigration, and we will still be covered by EU courts and EU laws.
Most of the coverage after the referendum has been about the divide in British society it has revealed, between the haves and the have nots. An EEA position would be stating clearly the government is going to put the bankers above the people who have to send their child to schools with majority ESL classrooms.
"An EEA position would be stating clearly the government is going to put the bankers"
Shall we have a referendum on this?
Or does the view of - ohhh... - c. 65% of the population not matter any more?
The problem with the argument that the EEA would have c. 65% support is that it doesn't matter how many support it today, but how many will support it 5-10 years from now.
The 1975 referendum was absolutely conclusive, until over the years it became seen as illegitimate because 'they didn't tell the truth'. People may be willing to accept the EEA now as a way of avoiding uncertainty, but if current levels of immigration continue, you risk seeing a truly extreme government elected.
That ignores the fact that if we change our mind five years from now, when we're in EFTA, and have trade agreements (negotiated not under the gun of leaving the EU in 18 months) in place with a bunch of countries, then we're in a lot stronger position.
The thing is how is being in the EEA going to resolve any of the political tensions in this Disunited Kingdom?
Have non-Corbyn PLP grossly underestimated the extent of the implications of going independent (cf BREXIT)? They lose their consituency offices, funding, infrastructure, the Labour brand etc etc. Such a party I expect would be doomed because it is hoplessly top down in conception (rather like the SDP). That would not stop them splitting the vote formenting turmoil leading to a catstrophic defeat for the left in 2020.
German media moles are reporting on NATO meetings. Key points:
- Obama pissed as fuck, wants the UK to be party to TTIP, told the Germans to make it happen. - Also wants to calm the markets, told them to do whatever it takes to keep the UK in the single market. - Junker working on keeping the 27 nations in line, lots of rebellion.
Have non-Corbyn PLP grossly underestimated the extent of the implications of going independent (cf BREXIT)? They lose their consituency offices, funding, infrastructure, the Labour brand etc etc. Such a party I expect would be doomed because it is hoplessly top down in conception (rather like the SDP). That would not stop them splitting the vote formenting turmoil leading to a catstrophic defeat for the left in 2020.
TBF, Labour is *already* facing catastrophic defeat. The PLP's despair is so intense they mat feel they have literally nothing to lose.
Have non-Corbyn PLP grossly underestimated the extent of the implications of going independent (cf BREXIT)? They lose their consituency offices, funding, infrastructure, the Labour brand etc etc. Such a party I expect would be doomed because it is hoplessly top down in conception (rather like the SDP). That would not stop them splitting the vote formenting turmoil leading to a catstrophic defeat for the left in 2020.
Would activists go across? And if they had a convincing leader who would inevitably become the leader of the opposition, people might suddenly join or donate.
German media moles are reporting on NATO meetings. Key points:
- Obama pissed as fuck, wants the UK to be party to TTIP, told the Germans to make it happen. - Also wants to calm the markets, told them to do whatever it takes to keep the UK in the single market. - Junker working on keeping the 27 nations in line, lots of rebellion.
What's the rebellion about? Any idea?
Playing Devil's advocate, who cares about Obama? He's gone in six months.
Very keen to see May in place. Thinks Leadsom is a total flake. Is content with Norway option.
The mists are beginning to disperse, and a way ahead emerges....
Is that content with Norway option after being given a positive description of it? I suspect people may change their minds when UKIP is heavily covered in the media pointing out that it will barely affect immigration, and we will still be covered by EU courts and EU laws.
Most of the coverage after the referendum has been about the divide in British society it has revealed, between the haves and the have nots. An EEA position would be stating clearly the government is going to put the bankers above the people who have to send their child to schools with majority ESL classrooms.
"An EEA position would be stating clearly the government is going to put the bankers"
Shall we have a referendum on this?
Or does the view of - ohhh... - c. 65% of the population not matter any more?
The problem with the argument that the EEA would have c. 65% support is that it doesn't matter how many support it today, but how many will support it 5-10 years from now.
The 1975 referendum was absolutely conclusive, until over the years it became seen as illegitimate because 'they didn't tell the truth'. People may be willing to accept the EEA now as a way of avoiding uncertainty, but if current levels of immigration continue, you risk seeing a truly extreme government elected.
That ignores the fact that if we change our mind five years from now, when we're in EFTA, and have trade agreements (negotiated not under the gun of leaving the EU in 18 months) in place with a bunch of countries, then we're in a lot stronger position.
The thing is how is being in the EEA going to resolve any of the political tensions in this Disunited Kingdom?
It resolves a lot of the sovereignty and take control arguments.
Have non-Corbyn PLP grossly underestimated the extent of the implications of going independent (cf BREXIT)? They lose their consituency offices, funding, infrastructure, the Labour brand etc etc. Such a party I expect would be doomed because it is hoplessly top down in conception (rather like the SDP). That would not stop them splitting the vote formenting turmoil leading to a catstrophic defeat for the left in 2020.
Would activists go across? And if they had a convincing leader who would inevitably become the leader of the opposition, people might suddenly join or donate.
A good number of councillors, party members, local leaders would leave.
Remember that the official opposition party gets a certain amount of state money - so that would follow.
Similarly at council level, there are funds that come in to the various party groupings - and when there are mass defections, that money does not flow in the same way.
Rump Labour would see a drop off in income and the new Party would not be starting totally from scratch. I can also see moderate unions moving over.
With the changes coming to Trade Union levies, Rump Labour might well see a major loss of funding. And they don't have rich friends in the city to fall back on
Very keen to see May in place. Thinks Leadsom is a total flake. Is content with Norway option.
The mists are beginning to disperse, and a way ahead emerges....
Is that content with Norway option after being given a positive description of it? I suspect people may change their minds when UKIP is heavily covered in the media pointing out that it will barely affect immigration, and we will still be covered by EU courts and EU laws.
Most of the coverage after the referendum has been about the divide in British society it has revealed, between the haves and the have nots. An EEA position would be stating clearly the government is going to put the bankers above the people who have to send their child to schools with majority ESL classrooms.
"An EEA position would be stating clearly the government is going to put the bankers"
Shall we have a referendum on this?
Or does the view of - ohhh... - c. 65% of the population not matter any more?
The problem with the argument that the EEA would have c. 65% support is that it doesn't matter how many support it today, but how many will support it 5-10 years from now.
The 1975 referendum was absolutely conclusive, until over the years it became seen as illegitimate because 'they didn't tell the truth'. People may be willing to accept the EEA now as a way of avoiding uncertainty, but if current levels of immigration continue, you risk seeing a truly extreme government elected.
That ignores the fact that if we change our mind five years from now, when we're in EFTA, and have trade agreements (negotiated not under the gun of leaving the EU in 18 months) in place with a bunch of countries, then we're in a lot stronger position.
The thing is how is being in the EEA going to resolve any of the political tensions in this Disunited Kingdom?
It resolves a lot of the sovereignty and take control arguments.
I think you're dreaming. The anger at elites, the London establishment, immigration, the lack of hope for the future or decent opportunities aren't going anywhere.
Very keen to see May in place. Thinks Leadsom is a total flake. Is content with Norway option.
The mists are beginning to disperse, and a way ahead emerges....
Is that content with Norway option after being given a positive description of it? I suspect people may change their minds when UKIP is heavily covered in the media pointing out that it will barely affect immigration, and we will still be covered by EU courts and EU laws.
Most of the coverage after the referendum has been about the divide in British society it has revealed, between the haves and the have nots. An EEA position would be stating clearly the government is going to put the bankers above the people who have to send their child to schools with majority ESL classrooms.
"An EEA position would be stating clearly the government is going to put the bankers"
Shall we have a referendum on this?
Or does the view of - ohhh... - c. 65% of the population not matter any more?
The problem with the argument that the EEA would have c. 65% support is that it doesn't matter how many support it today, but how many will support it 5-10 years from now.
The 1975 referendum was absolutely conclusive, until over the years it became seen as illegitimate because 'they didn't tell the truth'. People may be willing to accept the EEA now as a way of avoiding uncertainty, but if current levels of immigration continue, you risk seeing a truly extreme government elected.
That ignores the fact that if we change our mind five years from now, when we're in EFTA, and have trade agreements (negotiated not under the gun of leaving the EU in 18 months) in place with a bunch of countries, then we're in a lot stronger position.
The thing is how is being in the EEA going to resolve any of the political tensions in this Disunited Kingdom?
It resolves a lot of the sovereignty and take control arguments.
I think you're dreaming. The anger at elites, the London establishment, immigration, the lack of hope for the future or decent opportunities aren't going anywhere.
Yes, exactly. Nobody who matters a sweet hairy bollock.
This is getting very serious for her. She needs to stand down in the interest of the party and the country
No,they are the bastards. She needs to realise she has to be ultra professional. don't let the lefties in the party ruin hr quest to bring the party home.
I was coming back from Tescos this affy with the shopping, and just in front of me was a couple with their kid banging on. the mother was saying about how she felt that as she was born outside the country she felt that half the country felt she didn't belong, and her partner was trying to reassure her.
The reason why I bring this up is not to convince you: the REMAINers don't need telling and the LEAVErs won't listen regardless. The reason why I bring this up is because the woman was lily-white and had a proper South-East accent: you know, not quite Issix, not quite Lahndan, not Dorrsett, not Home Counties posh, just normal for the South East (I keep thinking Catherine Tate or Carole Jackson). She looked perfectly normal: pony, crap t-shirt, jeans, and her hubby had a green t-shirt and a gut. Entirely unexceptional.
It never occurred to me that somebody who looked like that could feel alienated. So, if nothing else, it was a learning experience. Weird...
In the very, very, very, very, VERY unlikely event the Leadsom the Womb Supremacist were to win, how could she ever hope to command a parliamentary majority?
I was coming back from Tescos this affy with the shopping, and just in front of me was a couple with their kid banging on. the mother was saying about how she felt that as she was born outside the country she felt that half the country felt she didn't belong, and her partner was trying to reassure her.
The reason why I bring this up is not to convince you: the REMAINers don't need telling and the LEAVErs won't listen regardless. The reason why I bring this up is because the woman was lily-white and had a proper South-East accent: you know, not quite Issix, not quite Lahndan, not Dorrsett, not Home Counties posh, just normal for the South East (I keep thinking Catherine Tate or Carole Jackson). She looked perfectly normal: pony, crap t-shirt, jeans, and her hubby had a green t-shirt and a gut. Entirely unexceptional.
It never occurred to me that somebody who looked like that could feel alienated. So, if nothing else, it was a learning experience. Weird...
I think there is a lot of hysteria going round at the moment. People are experiencing the grieving process in different ways.
She almost certainly doesn't feel that alienated. She is just processing the new situation and has yet to be shown how little change this will actually bring about in our daily lives.
A lot of crap has been spouted on Facebook and people have a worrying tendency to believe what others are posting.
In the very, very, very, very, VERY unlikely event the Leadsom the Womb Supremacist were to win, how could she ever hope to command a parliamentary majority?
Have non-Corbyn PLP grossly underestimated the extent of the implications of going independent (cf BREXIT)? They lose their consituency offices, funding, infrastructure, the Labour brand etc etc. Such a party I expect would be doomed because it is hoplessly top down in conception (rather like the SDP). That would not stop them splitting the vote formenting turmoil leading to a catstrophic defeat for the left in 2020.
Would activists go across? And if they had a convincing leader who would inevitably become the leader of the opposition, people might suddenly join or donate.
Some would, others wouldn't, just emphasising the disaster of split efforts. FPTP is a brutal taskmaster and it is immensely difficult for new parties to break through. Look at UKIP - an impressive vote but one MP.
I mean, the parallels are painfully obvious. Delusional, useless, inexperienced and backed up by a legion of screaming internet mingmongs who believe their Lord and Saviour is being held back by a sinister conspiracy of people who think the prime minister needs a basic level of competence.
I was coming back from Tescos this affy with the shopping, and just in front of me was a couple with their kid banging on. the mother was saying about how she felt that as she was born outside the country she felt that half the country felt she didn't belong, and her partner was trying to reassure her.
The reason why I bring this up is not to convince you: the REMAINers don't need telling and the LEAVErs won't listen regardless. The reason why I bring this up is because the woman was lily-white and had a proper South-East accent: you know, not quite Issix, not quite Lahndan, not Dorrsett, not Home Counties posh, just normal for the South East (I keep thinking Catherine Tate or Carole Jackson). She looked perfectly normal: pony, crap t-shirt, jeans, and her hubby had a green t-shirt and a gut. Entirely unexceptional.
It never occurred to me that somebody who looked like that could feel alienated. So, if nothing else, it was a learning experience. Weird...
On the hand, yours truly has never felt more British. And I wasn't born here either.
Of course the fact that she is a gormless numpty, is not relevant...
@PickardJE: Great insights into the thinking of local Tories: "I've been all over the valley on my bike..they all want Leadsom." https://t.co/WsZ1Hv6XKu
The fact that TWITTER has concluded she is a gormless numpty. Which has shit all to do with anything in the real world.
I do agree. I was foolish to believe that Twitter was Britain. Now, I realise that Twitter is 100% wrong.
This is getting very serious for her. She needs to stand down in the interest of the party and the country
No,they are the bastards. She needs to realise she has to be ultra professional. don't let the lefties in the party ruin hr quest to bring the party home.
I am not a leftie, I want Brexit and the biggest risk to Brexit is Leadsom herself.
Her behaviour has been irresponsible, naive and she has far too many questions to answer including her missing tax return
This is getting very serious for her. She needs to stand down in the interest of the party and the country
No,they are the bastards. She needs to realise she has to be ultra professional. don't let the lefties in the party ruin hr quest to bring the party home.
This is getting very serious for her. She needs to stand down in the interest of the party and the country
No,they are the bastards. She needs to realise she has to be ultra professional. don't let the lefties in the party ruin hr quest to bring the party home.
I am not a leftie, I want Brexit and the biggest risk to Brexit is Leadsom herself.
Her behaviour has been irresponsible, naive and she has far too many questions to answer including her missing tax return
You seem to have experienced quite a conversion - you had been staunch for Remain. It is one thing to accept the result of the referendum but saying 'I want Brexit' is quite another.
If Leadsom stays in race it could be a rout. Eric Pickles was on Newsnight the other night backing her. Now he's saying she's clearly not up to the job or words to that effect.
OK I know there is a long way to go but she is the architect of all her own problems. If, as appears to be the case, she is totally unsuitable to be next PM due to complete lack of the necessary ability, then she could end up with a very small % of votes. Things will probably settle down for her but at the moment the odds available on a massacre have tempted me in. May to win 80%+ is 18/1 with Skybet and 16/1 Ladbrokes.
This is getting very dreary. None of us are going to be negotiating Brexit. Trade is just one consideration. Our EU trade is unevenly distributed. There are some countries who might just as well be on Mars in terms of mutual leverage. Slovenia springs to mind.
Germany's trade surplus with the UK is sectorial. The German economy wouldn't miss us if the UK sank beneath the waves. Their car industry would. Conversely Belgium and Netherlands trade with the UK is a significant portion of their GDP despite the absolute value being lower.
We're just being bar room philosophers at this point. Brexit is going to be fecking complicated.
Technical point: We shouldn't include the Netherlands, as it includes a bunch of transshipment stuff...
Which along with hamburg rather distorts our EU trade figures as I believe anything exported or imported to RoW via a port in another EU country counts as an import/export to/from said EU country.
It's worth remembering that quote a lot of Apple products go to Ireland, are put in boxes in the Hollyhill factory, and are then shipped from there to the rest of the EU.
I'm sure they're not the only company to play that game.
It appears to be the only factory in the world which is actually owned by Apple making Apple products. Certainly, an iWhatever in the UK is more likely to be made in Ireland than in England.
Down my way most labour councillors are mainstream labour. The hundreds of new members are nearly all Corbynites. I do not believe they fully understand the implications of what might happen, although I respect their ideals and fervour. I would support Corbyn if there was someway he could take the pp with him and I may support him anyway
This is getting very serious for her. She needs to stand down in the interest of the party and the country
No,they are the bastards. She needs to realise she has to be ultra professional. don't let the lefties in the party ruin hr quest to bring the party home.
I am not a leftie, I want Brexit and the biggest risk to Brexit is Leadsom herself.
Her behaviour has been irresponsible, naive and she has far too many questions to answer including her missing tax return
You seem to have experienced quite a conversion - you had been staunch for Remain. It is one thing to accept the result of the referendum but saying 'I want Brexit' is quite another.
Since the morning of the 24th June I have fully accepted the result and am as pro Brexit as any on here.
Many leavers on here will confirm my views but my fear is that Leadsom will be so negative to the cause of leaving, as she has only 86 MP's backing her
They could do worse than model themselves on me: someone of unflinching determination, gritty and dauntless, never for a moment doubting the righteousness of my cause
Cheers Sean, that's by far the funniest post of the day
I was called a Blue Liberal the other day, if Leadsom becomes leader, then in 2020 I'm voting Lib Dem in Sheffield Hallam (or its successor seat) whilst still remaining a Tory member
The next few days are going to be consumed with the legal battle to keep him off the ballot
I suspect that will be futile. My reading of the rules is that the leader would be automatically on. The most reasonable way to interpret 'no vacancy' is that the current leader is being challenged and a challenge must involve a fair and equal fight. However, if a challenger waited until the last moment before submitting a nomination paper, that would give the incumbent no time to organise their own nomination - because until that nomination paper was in, there'd be no notice that an election was even taking place - and hence the leadership could simply be taken on the basis of a minority of MPs playing the timetable.
There may be very good reasons to get rid of Corbyn but going to the courts to try and keep him off the ballot strikes me as beyond crazy. The system they have is that members choose the leader. So surely it should be up to them to get rid of him. And surely keeping him off the ballot would only lead to enraging the members and an even more radical leader. McDonnell?
I did start to write an identical post but deleted it because I think that things have gone beyond that - although as I said, I think Corbyn's on fairly sure ground.
However, if it can be pulled off then you are undoubtedly right that keeping him off the ballot would enrage that portion of the membership that voted for him and cause concern among others who like to see propriety upheld. My question would be: so what? Which is the lesser of two evils? What would be the outcome of a coup by technicality (and it wouldn't be that big a technicality - the original rules do indeed provide for members choosing the leader but only from those with the support of 15% of MPs, which Corbyn didn't have)? If the Momentum members flounced, would that be a bad thing?
When Corbyn refused to resign after the vote of no confidence, he raised the stakes to a level where both sides could well be playing to avoid annihilation in the knowledge that the other side could initiate it given the opportunity. It's rather like a nuclear stand-off where neither side has a second-strike capability: the incentive is to fire the missiles while you have them.
'Wow 20 MPs would quit if Leadsom won. That's the majority gone.'
Just like some football supporters that tear their season tickets up in front of the cameras, then phone the club on Monday to say their season ticket was in their jeans that went in the washing machine.
I was called a Blue Liberal the other day, if Leadsom becomes leader, then in 2020 I'm voting Lib Dem in Sheffield Hallam (or its successor seat) whilst still remaining a Tory member
If she becomes leader, I'll be looking into that Democrats party if the party doesn't depose her quickly and tell the frothers to fuck off.
It really is high time the sulking, mewling crybabies of pb REMAINIACS got a grip. They could do worse than model themselves on me: someone of unflinching determination, gritty and dauntless, never for a moment doubting the righteousness of my cause
Because, guys, you LOST. You LOST the vote because the EU is SHIT. It was unsellable. Even the combined might of the entire Establishment couldn't persuade the British people to vote for the tepid cup of second hand puke, that is the EU.
So now, how about this. Let's pull together. Let's see a way forward. Brexit is incredibly risky, but there are also new freedoms and opportunities. It might, in the end, make us a happier, richer country, content to see itself as a senior, second division nation, military formidable and diplomatically influential, with a grand history and quite fabulous heritage, and soft power unmatched by almost anyone.
Seize the day.
Might. Might be rubbish if everyone reckons the British are insular flakes not worth trusting with a deal that impinges on their sovereignty. The consequences so far have not been fun.
I was called a Blue Liberal the other day, if Leadsom becomes leader, then in 2020 I'm voting Lib Dem in Sheffield Hallam (or its successor seat) whilst still remaining a Tory member
If she becomes leader, I'll be looking into that Democrats party if the party doesn't depose her quickly and tell the frothers to fuck off.
And will you admit you made the wrong call on the referendum?
I see that the LEEAvers are wobbling like blancmanges. You do have to wonder what they thought a post-Brexit Britain would look like. It isn't as if they weren't warned.
'Wow 20 MPs would quit if Leadsom won. That's the majority gone.'
Just like some football supporters that tear their season tickets up in front of the cameras, then phone the club on Monday to say their season ticket was in their jeans that went in the washing machine.
Obviously I think its unlikely but I would find it quite difficult to support a party that went as mad as to elect someone as temperamentally unsuitable and chronically lacking in experience as Leadsom. If she is successful which I hope is a remote possibility then I think a lot of people will enter a long dark night of the soul.
I've read the article (thank you btw), and it's typical Hannan: disingenuous and blames other people. Much of the article he spends casting LEAVErs as open internationalists seeking free trade and not even slightly mentioning immigration, which is...a rather partial interpretation, to put it mildly. I'm sure some LEAVEers did exactly that (Tyndall for one, and there were others), but many did not and I don't call Michael Gove "Screams At Migrants" for nothing.
There is also the question of "work with who exactly?". The government is not functioning, Leadsome is not a competent PM, Labour is autocoloning, UKIP is dissolving, nobody is driving. So who is this "we" that Hannan wishes REMAIN to work with?
So I'm torn. I want the EEA/EFTA combination that Hannan is too disingenuous to explicitly name, but I don't trust him and I don't think he can deliver.
If Leadsom stays in race it could be a rout. Eric Pickles was on Newsnight the other night backing her. Now he's saying she's clearly not up to the job or words to that effect.
OK I know there is a long way to go but she is the architect of all her own problems. If, as appears to be the case, she is totally unsuitable to be next PM due to complete lack of the necessary ability, then she could end up with a very small % of votes. Things will probably settle down for her but at the moment the odds available on a massacre have tempted me in. May to win 80%+ is 18/1 with Skybet and 16/1 Ladbrokes.
I'm on!
Even if her children vote for her she will struggle to get above that figure. £5 on with Shadsy...
I wish MPs would stop whispering hints of a realignment in politics - I know not to get my hopes up as there are just so many obstacles. I mean, it's not likely with Labour despite open warfare between its MPs and members, and Leadsom not being anywhere near as bad as Corbyn, not to mention supported by many more MPs, the Tories aren't splitting either.
As for floating ideas, well, people floated the idea of LDs and Tories formalising working together too, nobodies do that sort of wild thinking all the time.
But really, Pride is the main reason it won't happen. You need some really massive cause to launch a new party, like say, UKIP, and 'Labour and the Tories are a bit shit right now' isn't it - people will always stick around in millions to the familiar brands - so the only other times new parties happen is due to massive egos, like Galloway.
People aren't going to turn their backs en masse for a new party, from the home they've probably said for decades is the best thing ever, that their blood runs tory blue or something. Even if the current state of a party no longer matches what they think it used to be about.
I was called a Blue Liberal the other day, if Leadsom becomes leader, then in 2020 I'm voting Lib Dem in Sheffield Hallam (or its successor seat) whilst still remaining a Tory member
We salute your indefatigable efforts on canvassing in Sheffield, and convincing the good people of your fair city to vote LEAVE!
I've read the article (thank you btw), and it's typical Hannan: disingenuous and blames other people. Much of the article he spends casting LEAVErs as open internationalists seeking free trade and not even slightly mentioning immigration, which is...a rather partial interpretation, to put it mildly. I'm sure some LEAVEers did exactly that (Tyndall for one, and there were others), but many did not and I don't call Michael Gove "Screams At Migrants" for nothing.
There is also the question of "work with who exactly?". The government is not functioning, Leadsome is not a competent PM, Labour is autocoloning, UKIP is dissolving, nobody is driving. So who is this "we" that Hannan wishes REMAIN to work with?
So I'm torn. I want the EEA/EFTA combination that Hannan is too disingenuous to explicitly name, but I don't trust him and I don't think he can deliver.
It's going to be immensely difficult. Try selling EEA / EFTA in Sunderland or West Bromwich.
I see that the LEEAvers are wobbling like blancmanges. You do have to wonder what they thought a post-Brexit Britain would look like. It isn't as if they weren't warned.
We're not wobbling. Man up, you Magyar loving dipshit.
I'm quoting this purely so that I can find it next time you're having a nervous breakdown about the consequences of Brexit.
It really is high time the sulking, mewling crybabies of pb REMAINIACS got a grip. They could do worse than model themselves on me: someone of unflinching determination, gritty and dauntless, never for a moment doubting the righteousness of my cause
Because, guys, you LOST. You LOST the vote because the EU is SHIT. It was unsellable. Even the combined might of the entire Establishment couldn't persuade the British people to vote for the tepid cup of second hand puke, that is the EU.
So now, how about this. Let's pull together. Let's see a way forward. Brexit is incredibly risky, but there are also new freedoms and opportunities. It might, in the end, make us a happier, richer country, content to see itself as a senior, second division nation, military formidable and diplomatically influential, with a grand history and quite fabulous heritage, and soft power unmatched by almost anyone.
Seize the day.
What an utter pile of meaningless bilge. There won't be any more freedoms; the same people will remain in power but emboldened. We'll still have an unelected second chamber and an electoral system that simply means nothing to huge swathes of the country. As for opportunities; we've cut off our noses to spite our face by exiting a huge trading block without a plan for the future or even a plan for a plan. You may write modestly compelling novels SeanT (I know I nearly made it halfway through one of them) but the point at which you swallow the pseudo "Yes we can!" tripe of the leavers without considering the intricate niggling little details of forty years of diplomacy is the point at which your perspective can no longer be trusted.
A Ipsos Mori poll out showing more Remainers (4%) "regret" their vote than Leavers (3%) do.
Yes you've posted that three times, oddly I don't think you've posted some of the contradictory polling on that subject.
Can't imagine why.
Yes, please stop. I'm sure people are regretting, renouncing their regrets, re-regretting, resiling from their re-regretting ad bloody infinitum. It's called being human.
Referendum campaign is over.
If we don't stop raking over the eternal topic of 'have we changed our minds yet', it'll be like the Pacific War all over again. Like the old Japanese soldier tottering out of the jungle years after VJ day with their uniform in rags..."Things would be better in the EU! Banzai! For the Commissioners!" etc.
It really is high time the sulking, mewling crybabies of pb REMAINIACS got a grip. They could do worse than model themselves on me: someone of unflinching determination, gritty and dauntless, never for a moment doubting the righteousness of my cause
Because, guys, you LOST. You LOST the vote because the EU is SHIT. It was unsellable. Even the combined might of the entire Establishment couldn't persuade the British people to vote for the tepid cup of second hand puke, that is the EU.
So now, how about this. Let's pull together. Let's see a way forward. Brexit is incredibly risky, but there are also new freedoms and opportunities. It might, in the end, make us a happier, richer country, content to see itself as a senior, second division nation, military formidable and diplomatically influential, with a grand history and quite fabulous heritage, and soft power unmatched by almost anyone.
Seize the day.
Wow, the "remainiacs" are really getting to you aren't they Sean. Are you alright, hon? This is really spurring me to fight on :-)
The sulking, mewling cry-babies seem to be (with all due respect) the Brexiteers (like yourself) who thought they could somehow 'fix' the Europe question with a dodgy referendum. But, hey, people are still arguing. The quick fix isn't quick, and it ain't a fix.
Sean, you WON. Congratulations. Now man up.
Jean-Paul Sartre: "Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.". Mean anything?
Farage took 20 years to get us out of the EU, if it takes us 20 years to get back in, then that's a fight I'm happy to take on. I'm sorry it's not worked out the way you wanted it, we're a divided country, and the political reality has changed.
But I agree with you about pulling together. I'm busy pulling together with the millions who believe in a united Europe, and will continue to work towards that. See you at GE2017...
A Ipsos Mori poll out showing more Remainers (4%) "regret" their vote than Leavers (3%) do.
Yes you've posted that three times, oddly I don't think you've posted some of the contradictory polling on that subject.
Can't imagine why.
Yes, please stop. I'm sure people are regretting, renouncing their regrets, re-regretting, resiling from their re-regretting ad bloody infinitum. It's called being human.
Referendum campaign is over.
If we don't stop raking over the eternal topic of 'have we changed our minds yet', it'll be like the Pacific War all over again. Like the old Japanese soldier tottering out of the jungle years after VJ day with their uniform in rags..."Things would be better in the EU! Banzai! For the Commissioners!" etc.
Indeed, we vote to Leave without freedom of movement, so that's what we've got to honour.
It really is high time the sulking, mewling crybabies of pb REMAINIACS got a grip. They could do worse than model themselves on me: someone of unflinching determination, gritty and dauntless, never for a moment doubting the righteousness of my cause
Because, guys, you LOST. You LOST the vote because the EU is SHIT. It was unsellable. Even the combined might of the entire Establishment couldn't persuade the British people to vote for the tepid cup of second hand puke, that is the EU.
So now, how about this. Let's pull together. Let's see a way forward. Brexit is incredibly risky, but there are also new freedoms and opportunities. It might, in the end, make us a happier, richer country, content to see itself as a senior, second division nation, military formidable and diplomatically influential, with a grand history and quite fabulous heritage, and soft power unmatched by almost anyone.
Seize the day.
What an utter pile of meaningless bilge. There won't be any more freedoms; the same people will remain in power but emboldened. We'll still have an unelected second chamber and an electoral system that simply means nothing to huge swathes of the country. As for opportunities; we've cut off our noses to spite our face by exiting a huge trading block without a plan for the future or even a plan for a plan. You may write modestly compelling novels SeanT (I know I nearly made it halfway through one of them) but the point at which you swallow the pseudo "Yes we can!" tripe of the leavers without considering the intricate niggling little details of forty years of diplomacy is the point at which your perspective can no longer be trusted.
SeanT will probably have a different perspective next week.
This is bollocks. Yes, the EEA does mean we cede sovereignty on trade, but we get BACK all the sovereignty on all the OTHER laws passed by the EU - all those competences where the EU is slowly devouring our freedom.
60-70% of EU laws now have nothing to do with trade, when we enter the EEA we will regain control of ALL THAT. And we quit the CAP and the CFP; and there's no chance of us being further enmeshed in political union. And the ECJ can fuck off unless its ruling on widgets. And the entire corrupt charade in Brussels has nothing to do with us. And Westminster is reinstated as OUR parliament making OUR laws.
Is it perfect? Nope. Is it better than being actually in the EU? God yes.
The point of shared sovereignty is that you give up discretion over aspects of your policy in exchange for influencing the shared policy for the common good and in your own interest. This principle applies to the EU, the UN, the ECHR and NATO. This principle categorically does not apply to the EEA.
We submit to rules set by others, but have no influence over them This is a fundamental point. With the EEA, unlike the EU, we don't have shared sovereignty - we have no sovereignty at all. We simply wait to be told what to do and when to do it. Like Norway our government won't have a policy on anything to do with the EEA, which still has a very broad remit. Like Norway we won't discuss any of it in parliament, beyond the mechanics of implementation, because there is no point. To do so would just raise questions that we have can never have answers to.
I see that the LEEAvers are wobbling like blancmanges. You do have to wonder what they thought a post-Brexit Britain would look like. It isn't as if they weren't warned.
They thought that they could game the result. I might buy property in Dubin, ha ha, it doesn't matter to me, explains how a decline in sterling will make my US properties cheaper. honesty and dishonesty matters.
Osborne as Foreign Secretary? If Remain had won, perhaps.
How about David Cameron
His ability to negotiate with foreign counterparts would likely be questioned, but honestly he'd probably be good in a senior position somewhere under May, but I doubt he wants that even if she did, which who knows.
Will there be a TV debate between Leadsom and May?
There should be a couple, I think the dates for that and the hustings should be announced in the next fortnight
How awful will that be, two women who loathe each other pretending to be friends
I do not think they loathe each other - they are competing for the biggest job in the UK but hopefully they will act like adults - Theresa May will for certain
Comments
- Obama pissed as fuck, wants the UK to be party to TTIP, told the Germans to make it happen.
- Also wants to calm the markets, told them to do whatever it takes to keep the UK in the single market.
- Junker working on keeping the 27 nations in line, lots of rebellion.
So Mr Golding, what first attracted you Andrea Leadsom?
Playing Devil's advocate, who cares about Obama? He's gone in six months.
Are Tory members so dumb that they will elect a banker as Leaderene? I don't think so.
The Opposition can claim that the Tories are the Party of big business and bankers - such an appointment would confirm it as true..
The word "banker" is synonymous with deceit , greed and abuse of position...
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/remainers-stop-moaning-and-work-with-us
Remember that the official opposition party gets a certain amount of state money - so that would follow.
Similarly at council level, there are funds that come in to the various party groupings - and when there are mass defections, that money does not flow in the same way.
Rump Labour would see a drop off in income and the new Party would not be starting totally from scratch. I can also see moderate unions moving over.
With the changes coming to Trade Union levies, Rump Labour might well see a major loss of funding. And they don't have rich friends in the city to fall back on
I was coming back from Tescos this affy with the shopping, and just in front of me was a couple with their kid banging on. the mother was saying about how she felt that as she was born outside the country she felt that half the country felt she didn't belong, and her partner was trying to reassure her.
The reason why I bring this up is not to convince you: the REMAINers don't need telling and the LEAVErs won't listen regardless. The reason why I bring this up is because the woman was lily-white and had a proper South-East accent: you know, not quite Issix, not quite Lahndan, not Dorrsett, not Home Counties posh, just normal for the South East (I keep thinking Catherine Tate or Carole Jackson). She looked perfectly normal: pony, crap t-shirt, jeans, and her hubby had a green t-shirt and a gut. Entirely unexceptional.
It never occurred to me that somebody who looked like that could feel alienated. So, if nothing else, it was a learning experience. Weird...
Priti Patel interview: Andrea Leadsom could become a Tory Corbyn
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/09/priti-patel-interview-andrea-leadsom-could-become-a-tory-corbyn/
She almost certainly doesn't feel that alienated. She is just processing the new situation and has yet to be shown how little change this will actually bring about in our daily lives.
A lot of crap has been spouted on Facebook and people have a worrying tendency to believe what others are posting.
People say stupid s##t during campaigns.
I mean, the parallels are painfully obvious. Delusional, useless, inexperienced and backed up by a legion of screaming internet mingmongs who believe their Lord and Saviour is being held back by a sinister conspiracy of people who think the prime minister needs a basic level of competence.
Her behaviour has been irresponsible, naive and she has far too many questions to answer including her missing tax return
'Liberal, metropolitan, metrosexual, elite'
OK I know there is a long way to go but she is the architect of all her own problems. If, as appears to be the case, she is totally unsuitable to be next PM due to complete lack of the necessary ability, then she could end up with a very small % of votes. Things will probably settle down for her but at the moment the odds available on a massacre have tempted me in. May to win 80%+ is 18/1 with Skybet and 16/1 Ladbrokes.
I'm on!
Many leavers on here will confirm my views but my fear is that Leadsom will be so negative to the cause of leaving, as she has only 86 MP's backing her
However, if it can be pulled off then you are undoubtedly right that keeping him off the ballot would enrage that portion of the membership that voted for him and cause concern among others who like to see propriety upheld. My question would be: so what? Which is the lesser of two evils? What would be the outcome of a coup by technicality (and it wouldn't be that big a technicality - the original rules do indeed provide for members choosing the leader but only from those with the support of 15% of MPs, which Corbyn didn't have)? If the Momentum members flounced, would that be a bad thing?
When Corbyn refused to resign after the vote of no confidence, he raised the stakes to a level where both sides could well be playing to avoid annihilation in the knowledge that the other side could initiate it given the opportunity. It's rather like a nuclear stand-off where neither side has a second-strike capability: the incentive is to fire the missiles while you have them.
'Wow 20 MPs would quit if Leadsom won. That's the majority gone.'
Just like some football supporters that tear their season tickets up in front of the cameras, then phone the club on Monday to say their season ticket was in their jeans that went in the washing machine.
There is also the question of "work with who exactly?". The government is not functioning, Leadsome is not a competent PM, Labour is autocoloning, UKIP is dissolving, nobody is driving. So who is this "we" that Hannan wishes REMAIN to work with?
So I'm torn. I want the EEA/EFTA combination that Hannan is too disingenuous to explicitly name, but I don't trust him and I don't think he can deliver.
As for floating ideas, well, people floated the idea of LDs and Tories formalising working together too, nobodies do that sort of wild thinking all the time.
But really, Pride is the main reason it won't happen. You need some really massive cause to launch a new party, like say, UKIP, and 'Labour and the Tories are a bit shit right now' isn't it - people will always stick around in millions to the familiar brands - so the only other times new parties happen is due to massive egos, like Galloway.
People aren't going to turn their backs en masse for a new party, from the home they've probably said for decades is the best thing ever, that their blood runs tory blue or something. Even if the current state of a party no longer matches what they think it used to be about.
Can't imagine why.
Referendum campaign is over.
If we don't stop raking over the eternal topic of 'have we changed our minds yet', it'll be like the Pacific War all over again. Like the old Japanese soldier tottering out of the jungle years after VJ day with their uniform in rags..."Things would be better in the EU! Banzai! For the Commissioners!" etc.
In all honesty, there are MPs across the party divides who seem like they'd work well together - who'd be in people's fantasy new political party? Quite - a month is plenty of time.
https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/751896777494827009
The sulking, mewling cry-babies seem to be (with all due respect) the Brexiteers (like yourself) who thought they could somehow 'fix' the Europe question with a dodgy referendum. But, hey, people are still arguing. The quick fix isn't quick, and it ain't a fix.
Sean, you WON. Congratulations. Now man up.
Jean-Paul Sartre: "Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.". Mean anything?
Farage took 20 years to get us out of the EU, if it takes us 20 years to get back in, then that's a fight I'm happy to take on. I'm sorry it's not worked out the way you wanted it, we're a divided country, and the political reality has changed.
But I agree with you about pulling together. I'm busy pulling together with the millions who believe in a united Europe, and will continue to work towards that. See you at GE2017...
We submit to rules set by others, but have no influence over them This is a fundamental point. With the EEA, unlike the EU, we don't have shared sovereignty - we have no sovereignty at all. We simply wait to be told what to do and when to do it. Like Norway our government won't have a policy on anything to do with the EEA, which still has a very broad remit. Like Norway we won't discuss any of it in parliament, beyond the mechanics of implementation, because there is no point. To do so would just raise questions that we have can never have answers to.