(Actually, having known the people involved, I'd say the report is pretty accurate...)
Any word on when we're going to move away from Kinder, Küche, Kirche, and begin a proper debate on what either of these candidates (if any) have to offer the country in its hour of need?
(Actually, having known the people involved, I'd say the report is pretty accurate...)
You knew Benazir Bhutto?
Yes - not well - she was President of the Oxford Union in my first year.
On the article on May:
Miss Collinson describes Mrs May as “fun” to spend time with but others, who do not wish to be named, describe her even then as “reticent and self-contained”.
One contemporary said: “You didn’t feel you were ever on matey terms with Theresa, but Philip was easy to get on with.”
I agree with Alicia Collinson - Philip is naturally gregarious, and while Theresa does not wear her heart on her sleeve (and what's wrong with that?) she's certainly good company - this portrayal of a 'cold fish' is very wide of the mark.
"fitalass - do you have any views on how Scottish Con members are likely to vote in the leadership election.
I heard one report that 10% of Con members are in Scotland so they are a significant part of the electorate."
Hi @MikeL, missed your post earlier. I am not surprised at the fact that there may be up to 10% of Con members in Scotland, its the Ruth Davidson effect in action! Indeed, both sons No1 & No3 joined the party before the Holyrood election campaign as they are both huge fans of Ruth.
This is just my personal view when it comes to taking the pulse of Scottish Tory members I know in the Leadership contest. I suspect that both Remain and Brexiter voters will NOW largely go for Theresa May rather than Leadsom, although Leadsom does have some support from a few Brexiters up here. Ruth Davidson has come out in support of May, and that endorsement will carry some weight, more so now its a contest between May and Leadsom.
Interestingly, I suspect that May would have had a far tougher job persuading the majority of Scots Tories to back her up here had Gove been on the ballot. I just didn't ever get any sense of a groundswell of support for Boris up here, so Gove taking him out of the race didn't damage him up here nearly as much as possible elsewhere. As a result of final Parliamentary vote, just about all the initial Gove supporters I know have switched to May. We were all anyone but Boris in our house when Cameron resigned, and it has now gone from 3 leaning towards Gove & 1 May to a full house for May.
Like me, a lot of Scots Tories have built up a real cross party connection with other Better Together voters. And a significant number of these voters then went onto vote for the Scots Tories under Ruth Davidson, and already there is absolutely no doubt that Leadsom would be a disastrous choice as Tory Leader and PM for these voters.
Speaking personally, I have been completely turned off by the Leadsom campaign from day one. It has been one of the most negative & divisive campaigns I can remember, absolutely Corbynite in its tactics. And no attempt what so ever to either try to reach out and unite the Parliamentary party, never mind the wider membership. So no surprise that Leadsom is not appealing to the wider electorate that voted Tory just a year ago.
Interestingly, I suspect that May would have had a far tougher job persuading the majority of Scots Tories to back her up here had Gove been on the ballot.
(Actually, having known the people involved, I'd say the report is pretty accurate...)
Any word on when we're going to move away from Kinder, Küche, Kirche, and begin a proper debate on what either of these candidates (if any) have to offer the country in its hour of need?
Like the publication of Angela's tax return?
Nope - just another sideshow.
It's a given that both are wealthier than ~98% of the population, who would not understand such a document anyhow...
Move on to something relevant and substantive to the role of PM.
(Actually, having known the people involved, I'd say the report is pretty accurate...)
Any word on when we're going to move away from Kinder, Küche, Kirche, and begin a proper debate on what either of these candidates (if any) have to offer the country in its hour of need?
Like the publication of Angela's tax return?
Move on to something relevant and substantive to the role of PM.
The ability to keep promises is not 'relevant & substantive to the role of PM'?
(Actually, having known the people involved, I'd say the report is pretty accurate...)
You knew Benazir Bhutto?
Yes - not well - she was President of the Oxford Union in my first year.
On the article on May:
Miss Collinson describes Mrs May as “fun” to spend time with but others, who do not wish to be named, describe her even then as “reticent and self-contained”.
One contemporary said: “You didn’t feel you were ever on matey terms with Theresa, but Philip was easy to get on with.”
I agree with Alicia Collinson - Philip is naturally gregarious, and while Theresa does not wear her heart on her sleeve (and what's wrong with that?) she's certainly good company - this portrayal of a 'cold fish' is very wide of the mark.
Wow, that must have been an interesting experience to look back on. It doesn't seem like four years ago that I was on here posting that son No2 had done really well in his exam results and was heading off to Uni to do History and International relations. Just a few weeks ago we attended his graduation after he achieved a first class honours degree.
Funnily enough, Louise Mensch has changed tack completely and is now tweeting about the musical Hamilton....and has gone rather quite on 'The Times lied' angle......
(Actually, having known the people involved, I'd say the report is pretty accurate...)
You knew Benazir Bhutto?
Yes - not well - she was President of the Oxford Union in my first year.
On the article on May:
Miss Collinson describes Mrs May as “fun” to spend time with but others, who do not wish to be named, describe her even then as “reticent and self-contained”.
One contemporary said: “You didn’t feel you were ever on matey terms with Theresa, but Philip was easy to get on with.”
I agree with Alicia Collinson - Philip is naturally gregarious, and while Theresa does not wear her heart on her sleeve (and what's wrong with that?) she's certainly good company - this portrayal of a 'cold fish' is very wide of the mark.
Wow, that must have been an interesting experience to look back on. It doesn't seem like four years ago that I was on here posting that son No2 had done really well in his exam results and was heading off to Uni to do History and International relations. Just a few weeks ago we attended his graduation after he achieved a first class honours degree.
You can chuck Malcolm Turnbull into the cavalcade of wit & beauty passing through Oxford at the time.....and congrats on Son no2! (He did better than I did!)
Interestingly, I suspect that May would have had a far tougher job persuading the majority of Scots Tories to back her up here had Gove been on the ballot.
'Home team' factor?
The Scottish Home Team factor would most definitely have had an impact up here. But it is also worth remembering that like Cameron and Osborne, Gove really did make an effort to visit and campaign in Scotland over the last few years. Like Gove, my father in law gained a scholarship to Robert Gordons in Aberdeen, so that was definitely going to be a plus for him in our house.
Boris really did box himself in as a potential Tory Leader by becoming London Mayor, and this was always going to curb his appeal within the wider UK party. In fact, my main worry with May remains the fact that she is not only regarded as the boringly safe option, but one that has never attempted to really widen her appeal or horizons outside her safe zone by reaching out and visiting other parts of the country. She need to remedy this weak profile outside London fast!
(Actually, having known the people involved, I'd say the report is pretty accurate...)
Any word on when we're going to move away from Kinder, Küche, Kirche, and begin a proper debate on what either of these candidates (if any) have to offer the country in its hour of need?
Like the publication of Angela's tax return?
Move on to something relevant and substantive to the role of PM.
The ability to keep promises is not 'relevant & substantive to the role of PM'?
'Promises' to the jackals of Fleet Street?
Not really, after seeing the witch-hunts endured by both Miliband and Cameron, once there was a sniff of "Shock Horror:- MONEY! not obtained via P.A.Y.E.''...
(Actually, having known the people involved, I'd say the report is pretty accurate...)
Any word on when we're going to move away from Kinder, Küche, Kirche, and begin a proper debate on what either of these candidates (if any) have to offer the country in its hour of need?
Like the publication of Angela's tax return?
Move on to something relevant and substantive to the role of PM.
The ability to keep promises is not 'relevant & substantive to the role of PM'?
Neocons linked to Tea Party paid for Andrea Leadsom’s flights to US A controversial rightwing American lobbying group that denies climate change science and promotes gun ownership paid for the Tory prime ministerial hopeful Andrea Leadsom to fly to the United States to attend its conferences.
The American Legislative Exchange Council – Alec – is a neoconservative organisation with close links to members of the Tea Party movement. Championed by supporters of the free market, it has been attacked by critics for exerting a “powerful and undemocratic” influence on US politics.
It is part funded by the billionaire Koch brothers, David and Charles, whose empire spans mining, chemicals and finance. Leadsom’s links to the council will be scrutinised closely by those trying to gauge her political leanings.
In fairness to Leadsom this was in 2008 before she became an MP - but would do no harm to distance herself from them rather than 'no comment'.....so its really a question of media handling....
(Actually, having known the people involved, I'd say the report is pretty accurate...)
Any word on when we're going to move away from Kinder, Küche, Kirche, and begin a proper debate on what either of these candidates (if any) have to offer the country in its hour of need?
Like the publication of Angela's tax return?
Move on to something relevant and substantive to the role of PM.
The ability to keep promises is not 'relevant & substantive to the role of PM'?
'Promises' to the jackals of Fleet Street?
Promises to her electorate.
The 'electorate' is an nebulous mass, with short memories, with more important issues for their immediate consideration. Not that they'll get a say in the matter until c.2020 of course.
I'll probably never vote Tory (or Labour) in a thousand years, but the present question is that one of these second-raters WILL become PM in a few weeks time...
I couldn't care less about their internal plumbing, or lack of it, their wealth (whether in the top 2% or 1% or half-percent), that they were 'orphaned' at age 25, thirty-five years ago...
What do they have to offer the country? Differently from what we have had for the past six years? Everything else is a diversion, and a f***ing insult to my intelligence.
(Actually, having known the people involved, I'd say the report is pretty accurate...)
Any word on when we're going to move away from Kinder, Küche, Kirche, and begin a proper debate on what either of these candidates (if any) have to offer the country in its hour of need?
Like the publication of Angela's tax return?
Move on to something relevant and substantive to the role of PM.
The ability to keep promises is not 'relevant & substantive to the role of PM'?
Neocons linked to Tea Party paid for Andrea Leadsom’s flights to US A controversial rightwing American lobbying group that denies climate change science and promotes gun ownership paid for the Tory prime ministerial hopeful Andrea Leadsom to fly to the United States to attend its conferences.
The American Legislative Exchange Council – Alec – is a neoconservative organisation with close links to members of the Tea Party movement. Championed by supporters of the free market, it has been attacked by critics for exerting a “powerful and undemocratic” influence on US politics.
It is part funded by the billionaire Koch brothers, David and Charles, whose empire spans mining, chemicals and finance. Leadsom’s links to the council will be scrutinised closely by those trying to gauge her political leanings.
In fairness to Leadsom this was in 2008 before she became an MP - but would do no harm to distance herself from them rather than 'no comment'.....so its really a question of media handling....
Something tells me that Leadsom's media handlers will choose the wrong option in the hope that it benefits her campaign strategy among her wider targeted audience..... A group that probable doesn't have a large vote in this contest, but it will again leave her genuine Tory membership supporters beleaguered and trying defend her stance yet again.
Neocons linked to Tea Party paid for Andrea Leadsom’s flights to US A controversial rightwing American lobbying group that denies climate change science and promotes gun ownership paid for the Tory prime ministerial hopeful Andrea Leadsom to fly to the United States to attend its conferences.
The American Legislative Exchange Council – Alec – is a neoconservative organisation with close links to members of the Tea Party movement. Championed by supporters of the free market, it has been attacked by critics for exerting a “powerful and undemocratic” influence on US politics.
It is part funded by the billionaire Koch brothers, David and Charles, whose empire spans mining, chemicals and finance. Leadsom’s links to the council will be scrutinised closely by those trying to gauge her political leanings.
In fairness to Leadsom this was in 2008 before she became an MP - but would do no harm to distance herself from them rather than 'no comment'.....so its really a question of media handling....
Something tells me that Leadsom's media handlers will choose the wrong option in the hope that it benefits her campaign strategy among her wider targeted audience..... A group that probable doesn't have a large vote in this contest, but it will again leave her genuine Tory membership supporters beleaguered and trying defend her stance yet again.
After the Times debacle I'm not sure she has media handlers - I suspect the anguished tweets were all her own work..
Neocons linked to Tea Party paid for Andrea Leadsom’s flights to US A controversial rightwing American lobbying group that denies climate change science and promotes gun ownership paid for the Tory prime ministerial hopeful Andrea Leadsom to fly to the United States to attend its conferences.
The American Legislative Exchange Council – Alec – is a neoconservative organisation with close links to members of the Tea Party movement. Championed by supporters of the free market, it has been attacked by critics for exerting a “powerful and undemocratic” influence on US politics.
It is part funded by the billionaire Koch brothers, David and Charles, whose empire spans mining, chemicals and finance. Leadsom’s links to the council will be scrutinised closely by those trying to gauge her political leanings.
In fairness to Leadsom this was in 2008 before she became an MP - but would do no harm to distance herself from them rather than 'no comment'.....so its really a question of media handling....
Something tells me that Leadsom's media handlers will choose the wrong option in the hope that it benefits her campaign strategy among her wider targeted audience..... A group that probable doesn't have a large vote in this contest, but it will again leave her genuine Tory membership supporters beleaguered and trying defend her stance yet again.
After the Times debacle I'm not sure she has media handlers - I suspect the anguished tweets were all her own work..
After the ludicrous decision to shortlist two women for the Tory leadership - degrading, predictably, into an irrelevant catfight within hours - Labour can hardly pick a woman leader now...
Quite what is ludicrous about the Conservative Party decision to shortlist the top two in their ballot of MPs, both of whom just happen to be women?
If they had both just happened to be men, would you also regard that as ludicrous?
After the ludicrous decision to shortlist two women for the Tory leadership - degrading, predictably, into an irrelevant catfight within hours - Labour can hardly pick a woman leader now...
Quite what is ludicrous about the Conservative Party decision to shortlist the top two in their ballot of MPs, both of whom just happen to be women?
If they had both just happened to be men, would you also regard that as ludicrous?
This is the most brilliant post ever Rod. Difficult to see how you could fit more false propositions and anti-women prejudice into such a short post. Bravo!
After the ludicrous decision to shortlist two women for the Tory leadership - degrading, predictably, into an irrelevant catfight within hours - Labour can hardly pick a woman leader now...
Quite what is ludicrous about the Conservative Party decision to shortlist the top two in their ballot of MPs, both of whom just happen to be women?
If they had both just happened to be men, would you also regard that as ludicrous?
This is the most brilliant post ever Rod. Difficult to see how you could fit more false propositions and anti-women prejudice into such a short post. Bravo!
I offer my apologies Rod - having scrolled down and read your original comments, I can see this was taken out of context, in a longer post you made and (presumably) you were exaggerating the point that 'White Van man' is going to be put off by the campaign being run around the women. I posted in haste - sorry.
It really is high time the sulking, mewling crybabies of pb REMAINIACS got a grip. They could do worse than model themselves on me: someone of unflinching determination, gritty and dauntless, never for a moment doubting the righteousness of my cause
Because, guys, you LOST. You LOST the vote because the EU is SHIT. It was unsellable. Even the combined might of the entire Establishment couldn't persuade the British people to vote for the tepid cup of second hand puke, that is the EU.
Seize the day.
Wow, the "remainiacs" are really getting to you aren't they Sean. Are you alright, hon? This is really spurring me to fight on :-)
The sulking, mewling cry-babies seem to be (with all due respect) the Brexiteers (like yourself) who thought they could somehow 'fix' the Europe question with a dodgy referendum. But, hey, people are still arguing. The quick fix isn't quick, and it ain't a fix.
Sean, you WON. Congratulations. Now man up.
Jean-Paul Sartre: "Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.". Mean anything?
Farage took 20 years to get us out of the EU, if it takes us 20 years to get back in, then that's a fight I'm happy to take on. I'm sorry it's not worked out the way you wanted it, we're a divided country, and the political reality has changed.
But I agree with you about pulling together. I'm busy pulling together with the millions who believe in a united Europe, and will continue to work towards that. See you at GE2017...
Put up an ALTERNATIVE vision of "united Europe" to the EU and I can be persuaded to fight by your side.
But if you want to fight for the EU then we'll have to be opponents (not that a mild middle-aged man such as I would frighten you! )
The EU is just ONE PATH to a united europe - and one to which I am implacably opposed.
Yes, good comments - and interesting that at least some of the German parties (well, the CDU) are now openly (and seriously) discussing some sort of 'looser' economic union in the wake of Brexit. Putting together an alternative vision (or version) or a united Europe is something that 'the 48' need to be working together.
But I still think that significant numbers of people in this country just 'hate Europe' and would reject even the most positive European model that would end up with a European superstate. This is the new political reality, and people are going to have to pick sides. The point I was trying to make (and angrier than perhaps I should have written) is that the one thing we aren't going to do is shut up as if the door is closed forever on Europe, simply because people are fed up with discussing it, and think we're bad losers who should instead roll up our sleeves, turn up at Nigel Farage/Andrea Leadsom's house, and say 'How can I help?'.
It really is high time the sulking, mewling crybabies of pb REMAINIACS got a grip. They could do worse than model themselves on me: someone of unflinching determination, gritty and dauntless, never for a moment doubting the righteousness of my cause
Because, guys, you LOST. You LOST the vote because the EU is SHIT. It was unsellable. Even the combined might of the entire Establishment couldn't persuade the British people to vote for the tepid cup of second hand puke, that is the EU.
So now, how about this. Let's pull together. Let's see a way forward. Brexit is incredibly risky, but there are also new freedoms and opportunities. It might, in the end, make us a happier, richer country, content to see itself as a senior, second division nation, military formidable and diplomatically influential, with a grand history and quite fabulous heritage, and soft power unmatched by almost anyone.
Seize the day.
Wow, the "remainiacs" are really getting to you aren't they Sean. Are you alright, hon? This is really spurring me to fight on :-)
The sulking, mewling cry-babies seem to be (with all due respect) the Brexiteers (like yourself) who thought they could somehow 'fix' the Europe question with a dodgy referendum. But, hey, people are still arguing. The quick fix isn't quick, and it ain't a fix.
Sean, you WON. Congratulations. Now man up.
Jean-Paul Sartre: "Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.". Mean anything?
Farage took 20 years to get us out of the EU, if it takes us 20 years to get back in, then that's a fight I'm happy to take on. I'm sorry it's not worked out the way you wanted it, we're a divided country, and the political reality has changed.
But I agree with you about pulling together. I'm busy pulling together with the millions who believe in a united Europe, and will continue to work towards that. See you at GE2017...
Getting fed up with Remainers claiming we are a divided country. We were a divided country before the referendum as the polls showed, we have been divided for many years before that and we would have been just as divided had Remain won.
But Remain lost.....So feck your claim to hold the moral high ground on divided. The EU has caused the divide you are just too blind to see how the EU has grown these divisions.
I'm not claiming the moral high ground. I'm claiming the right to go on fighting for an alternative future in Europe that Brexiteers are somehow putting down to denial and sour grapes. Half the country thought the EU caused the problems, half think they hold the key to solutions. The EU aren't causing climate change, reducing biodiversity and caused Internet-powered globalisation. On this stage, Brexit is just a rearrangement of the Titanic deckchairs.
Comments
Yes - not well - she was President of the Oxford Union in my first year.
On the article on May:
Miss Collinson describes Mrs May as “fun” to spend time with but others, who do not wish to be named, describe her even then as “reticent and self-contained”.
One contemporary said: “You didn’t feel you were ever on matey terms with Theresa, but Philip was easy to get on with.”
I agree with Alicia Collinson - Philip is naturally gregarious, and while Theresa does not wear her heart on her sleeve (and what's wrong with that?) she's certainly good company - this portrayal of a 'cold fish' is very wide of the mark.
I heard one report that 10% of Con members are in Scotland so they are a significant part of the electorate."
Hi @MikeL, missed your post earlier. I am not surprised at the fact that there may be up to 10% of Con members in Scotland, its the Ruth Davidson effect in action! Indeed, both sons No1 & No3 joined the party before the Holyrood election campaign as they are both huge fans of Ruth.
This is just my personal view when it comes to taking the pulse of Scottish Tory members I know in the Leadership contest. I suspect that both Remain and Brexiter voters will NOW largely go for Theresa May rather than Leadsom, although Leadsom does have some support from a few Brexiters up here. Ruth Davidson has come out in support of May, and that endorsement will carry some weight, more so now its a contest between May and Leadsom.
Interestingly, I suspect that May would have had a far tougher job persuading the majority of Scots Tories to back her up here had Gove been on the ballot. I just didn't ever get any sense of a groundswell of support for Boris up here, so Gove taking him out of the race didn't damage him up here nearly as much as possible elsewhere. As a result of final Parliamentary vote, just about all the initial Gove supporters I know have switched to May. We were all anyone but Boris in our house when Cameron resigned, and it has now gone from 3 leaning towards Gove & 1 May to a full house for May.
Like me, a lot of Scots Tories have built up a real cross party connection with other Better Together voters. And a significant number of these voters then went onto vote for the Scots Tories under Ruth Davidson, and already there is absolutely no doubt that Leadsom would be a disastrous choice as Tory Leader and PM for these voters.
Speaking personally, I have been completely turned off by the Leadsom campaign from day one. It has been one of the most negative & divisive campaigns I can remember, absolutely Corbynite in its tactics. And no attempt what so ever to either try to reach out and unite the Parliamentary party, never mind the wider membership. So no surprise that Leadsom is not appealing to the wider electorate that voted Tory just a year ago.
It's a given that both are wealthier than ~98% of the population, who would not understand such a document anyhow...
Move on to something relevant and substantive to the role of PM.
Boris really did box himself in as a potential Tory Leader by becoming London Mayor, and this was always going to curb his appeal within the wider UK party. In fact, my main worry with May remains the fact that she is not only regarded as the boringly safe option, but one that has never attempted to really widen her appeal or horizons outside her safe zone by reaching out and visiting other parts of the country. She need to remedy this weak profile outside London fast!
Not really, after seeing the witch-hunts endured by both Miliband and Cameron, once there was a sniff of "Shock Horror:- MONEY! not obtained via P.A.Y.E.''...
A controversial rightwing American lobbying group that denies climate change science and promotes gun ownership paid for the Tory prime ministerial hopeful Andrea Leadsom to fly to the United States to attend its conferences.
The American Legislative Exchange Council – Alec – is a neoconservative organisation with close links to members of the Tea Party movement. Championed by supporters of the free market, it has been attacked by critics for exerting a “powerful and undemocratic” influence on US politics.
It is part funded by the billionaire Koch brothers, David and Charles, whose empire spans mining, chemicals and finance. Leadsom’s links to the council will be scrutinised closely by those trying to gauge her political leanings.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/andrea-leadsom-tea-party
In fairness to Leadsom this was in 2008 before she became an MP - but would do no harm to distance herself from them rather than 'no comment'.....so its really a question of media handling....
I'll probably never vote Tory (or Labour) in a thousand years, but the present question is that one of these second-raters WILL become PM in a few weeks time...
I couldn't care less about their internal plumbing, or lack of it, their wealth (whether in the top 2% or 1% or half-percent), that they were 'orphaned' at age 25, thirty-five years ago...
What do they have to offer the country? Differently from what we have had for the past six years? Everything else is a diversion, and a f***ing insult to my intelligence.
She made a promise to them.
She should keep it.
If they had both just happened to be men, would you also regard that as ludicrous?
But I still think that significant numbers of people in this country just 'hate Europe' and would reject even the most positive European model that would end up with a European superstate. This is the new political reality, and people are going to have to pick sides. The point I was trying to make (and angrier than perhaps I should have written) is that the one thing we aren't going to do is shut up as if the door is closed forever on Europe, simply because people are fed up with discussing it, and think we're bad losers who should instead roll up our sleeves, turn up at Nigel Farage/Andrea Leadsom's house, and say 'How can I help?'.