Just to put that last point another way, the broad positioning of the manifestos on which nearly all MPs have been elected for the last 15 years is now represented exclusively by the LibDems, and nobody's going to vote for them because they're the LibDems.
Politics has moved away from the Lib Dems very quickly - much as it did 90 years ago.
The EU isn't going to allow us to remain even if we wanted to so it's all a bit of wishful thinking.
That could only possibly be true after Britain has invoked Article 50.
We will be forced to invoke article 50.
Forced how? They can't kick us out without a legal mechanism, and there really doesn't seem to be one of those under the Lisbon Treaty. We have to formally notify the European Council of our intention to leave. That's again a formal submission for legal purposes, not some interpretation via the press.
The EU are quoting RBS vs Wilson which defines that Shall means Will. It is possible they will use that in the ECJ to rule that not on Shall means Will but WIll means Now.
There is little other reason for their use of the language.
Again, I think the key word in that sentence is "decided". HMG has not officially decided.
The problem with Corbyn isn't that he is left wing. It's that he's a hopeless leader.
This is not the same as proving anyone else would be less hopeless.
That's a pretty tenuous reason to stick with him.
Is it? If you didn't like the flat you were living in and thought it was too small and a bit tatty, would you just move out even if the alternative was living on the streets?
Very few of the genuine 3 quidders will re-elect corbyn given the chance. They're the same Labour ABC's who are so outraged by Brexit.
Corbyn might get some union support and the tory £3'ers, but I doubt that will be enough against a electable centrist.
Watch Tom Watson. I don't think he wants the gig himself but whoever he supports will probably win. Still odds against a successful coup IMO.
Tom Watson is very well placed. It's a battle between him and McDonnell when Corbyn does decide to fall under the bus. Watson will be the steady hand. Admittedly, a pudgy, sweaty hand, but he'll do for now.
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
Well the political ground is starting to open up, and Farron is stepping in there. The only way is UP as some wise people once said.
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
Well the political ground is starting to open up, and Farron is stepping in there. The only way is UP as some wise people once said.
Sounds like the perfect opportunity for the New Fiscally Dry, Socially Liberal, not obsessed by the gays and Europe Conservative Party
On behalf of people who run politics websites & journalists everywhere. Sacking someone at 1am on a Sunday morning is a really bad fucking idea
They thought you were getting too much sleep. Slackers
I can't sleep now thanks to that bell end Corbyn.
Maybe Hodge, Benn and others shouldn't be trying to knife him first then.
Or maybe Corbyn should have actually tried to work with the PLP to find common ground...
The PLP is out of step with their members (To the right), and they're both out of step with their voters outside of London (Small c conservative). Corbyn is at least in tune with the members.
On behalf of people who run politics websites & journalists everywhere. Sacking someone at 1am on a Sunday morning is a really bad fucking idea
They thought you were getting too much sleep. Slackers
I can't sleep now thanks to that bell end Corbyn.
Maybe Hodge, Benn and others shouldn't be trying to knife him first then.
Or maybe Corbyn should have actually tried to work with the PLP to find common ground...
The PLP is out of step with their members (To the right), and they're both out of step with their voters outside of London (Small c conservative). Corbyn is at least in tune with the members.
On behalf of people who run politics websites & journalists everywhere. Sacking someone at 1am on a Sunday morning is a really bad fucking idea
They thought you were getting too much sleep. Slackers
I can't sleep now thanks to that bell end Corbyn.
Maybe Hodge, Benn and others shouldn't be trying to knife him first then.
Or maybe Corbyn should have actually tried to work with the PLP to find common ground...
The PLP is out of step with their members (To the right), and they're both out of step with their voters outside of London (Small c conservative). Corbyn is at least in tune with the members.
If he is so in tune with the membership, why couldn't he get them to vote Remain?
Oh yes, that would have required him to show leadership
On behalf of people who run politics websites & journalists everywhere. Sacking someone at 1am on a Sunday morning is a really bad fucking idea
They thought you were getting too much sleep. Slackers
I can't sleep now thanks to that bell end Corbyn.
Maybe Hodge, Benn and others shouldn't be trying to knife him first then.
Or maybe Corbyn should have actually tried to work with the PLP to find common ground...
The PLP is out of step with their members (To the right), and they're both out of step with their voters outside of London (Small c conservative). Corbyn is at least in tune with the members.
If he is so in tune with the membership, why couldn't he get them to vote Remain?
Oh yes, that would have required him to show leadership
The membership will have voted massively to remain.
On behalf of people who run politics websites & journalists everywhere. Sacking someone at 1am on a Sunday morning is a really bad fucking idea
They thought you were getting too much sleep. Slackers
I can't sleep now thanks to that bell end Corbyn.
Maybe Hodge, Benn and others shouldn't be trying to knife him first then.
Or maybe Corbyn should have actually tried to work with the PLP to find common ground...
The PLP is out of step with their members (To the right), and they're both out of step with their voters outside of London (Small c conservative). Corbyn is at least in tune with the members.
And Corbyn atleast offers something on economics that might appeal to the small-c conservative voters outside of London.
A little-noticed nugget from the Ashcroft poll the other day: a small majority of Leave voters agreed with the statement that "capitalism is more a force for ill than good"...
The problem with Corbyn isn't that he is left wing. It's that he's a hopeless leader.
This is not the same as proving anyone else would be less hopeless.
That's a pretty tenuous reason to stick with him.
Is it? If you didn't like the flat you were living in and thought it was too small and a bit tatty, would you just move out even if the alternative was living on the streets?
If there is no more competent leader anywhere in the Parliamentary Labour Party, then they are metaphorically on the streets already.
Most likely the Labour voters DID actually vote to remain overall anyway (Though not the wwc Labour). Tory + UKIP + GE Non voters got leave over the line.
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
My main worry for any new centre party cobbling a majority from the tattered remains of everyone else is that NiMo might be the one thought most acceptable to all wings! #gettingaheadofmyself
On behalf of people who run politics websites & journalists everywhere. Sacking someone at 1am on a Sunday morning is a really bad fucking idea
They thought you were getting too much sleep. Slackers
I can't sleep now thanks to that bell end Corbyn.
Maybe Hodge, Benn and others shouldn't be trying to knife him first then.
Or maybe Corbyn should have actually tried to work with the PLP to find common ground...
The PLP is out of step with their members (To the right), and they're both out of step with their voters outside of London (Small c conservative). Corbyn is at least in tune with the members.
If he is so in tune with the membership, why couldn't he get them to vote Remain?
Oh yes, that would have required him to show leadership
The membership will have voted massively to remain.
On behalf of people who run politics websites & journalists everywhere. Sacking someone at 1am on a Sunday morning is a really bad fucking idea
They thought you were getting too much sleep. Slackers
I can't sleep now thanks to that bell end Corbyn.
Maybe Hodge, Benn and others shouldn't be trying to knife him first then.
Or maybe Corbyn should have actually tried to work with the PLP to find common ground...
The PLP is out of step with their members (To the right), and they're both out of step with their voters outside of London (Small c conservative). Corbyn is at least in tune with the members.
Well what this forum constantly fails to grasp is that strong leaders can bring their people with them, regardless of their notional position on the left-right scale. Corbyn can bring sod all. His performance in the Brexit vote was nothing less than utterly disgraceful.
Most likely the Labour voters DID actually vote to remain overall anyway (Though not the wwc Labour). Tory + UKIP + GE Non voters got leave over the line.
WWC Labour is Labour. If you don't connect with your heartlands, you don't stand a chance.
The problem with Corbyn isn't that he is left wing. It's that he's a hopeless leader.
This is not the same as proving anyone else would be less hopeless.
That's a pretty tenuous reason to stick with him.
Is it? If you didn't like the flat you were living in and thought it was too small and a bit tatty, would you just move out even if the alternative was living on the streets?
If there is no more competent leader anywhere in the Parliamentary Labour Party, then they are metaphorically on the streets already.
Perhaps so, but that is the reality as I see it. You don't ditch the existing arrangements until there's a better replacement lined up, and I see no better replacement - certainly anyone who didn't foresee that Remain would be toxically unpopular with working-class Labour voters would not be a more competent leader.
On behalf of people who run politics websites & journalists everywhere. Sacking someone at 1am on a Sunday morning is a really bad fucking idea
They thought you were getting too much sleep. Slackers
I can't sleep now thanks to that bell end Corbyn.
Maybe Hodge, Benn and others shouldn't be trying to knife him first then.
Or maybe Corbyn should have actually tried to work with the PLP to find common ground...
The PLP is out of step with their members (To the right), and they're both out of step with their voters outside of London (Small c conservative). Corbyn is at least in tune with the members.
If he is so in tune with the membership, why couldn't he get them to vote Remain?
Oh yes, that would have required him to show leadership
The membership will have voted massively to remain.
So not so in tune with the membership after all.
Corbyn both voted and backed remain. And yes he was lukewarm about it - refreshingly honest unlike Dave Cameron's sudden damascene conversion which fooled precisely noone.
On behalf of people who run politics websites & journalists everywhere. Sacking someone at 1am on a Sunday morning is a really bad fucking idea
They thought you were getting too much sleep. Slackers
I can't sleep now thanks to that bell end Corbyn.
Maybe Hodge, Benn and others shouldn't be trying to knife him first then.
Or maybe Corbyn should have actually tried to work with the PLP to find common ground...
The PLP is out of step with their members (To the right), and they're both out of step with their voters outside of London (Small c conservative). Corbyn is at least in tune with the members.
Well what this forum constantly fails to grasp is that strong leaders can bring their people with them, regardless of their notional position on the left-right scale. Corbyn can bring sod all. His performance in the Brexit vote was nothing less than utterly disgraceful.
They are also not stupid enough to force the more unpalatable of their views on those who they are leading.
Most likely the Labour voters DID actually vote to remain overall anyway (Though not the wwc Labour). Tory + UKIP + GE Non voters got leave over the line.
WWC Labour is Labour. If you don't connect with your heartlands, you don't stand a chance.
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
Well the political ground is starting to open up, and Farron is stepping in there. The only way is UP as some wise people once said.
But as someone said up-thread... they're the LibDems (in all seriousness, Farron is no more electable than Corbyn. Nice bloke, but there's not much of a proposition there to hang on to)
The centre (or centre-left or centre-right) needs a bulky chunk of Lab and/or Con (and/or LibDem) names, with a heavyweight leader who's had a real job or two and can connect with the WWC. Assuming Brexit isn't going to be unpicked and will be negotiated by the headbanger Tory, they can probably park Europe as an issue.
The daft thing is, if Boris had ascended fresh from his stint as mayor, with all the judicious nods to multiculturalism and big-ticket infrastructure, that middle ground would be his. But he's very firmly parked himself on the right, with some very tricky business to negotiate if he doesn't want to fall over.
Just to put that last point another way, the broad positioning of the manifestos on which nearly all MPs have been elected for the last 15 years is now represented exclusively by the LibDems, and nobody's going to vote for them because they're the LibDems.
Politics has moved away from the Lib Dems very quickly - much as it did 90 years ago.
Politics has, this is my point. But at least a large minority of voters, and maybe even a majority, are still where Cameron and Blair won their elections. It's as if Coke and Pepsi both abandoned cola and decided to sell whisky and herbal tea.
Some point earlier there was a suggestion that McDonnell was planning a Leadership campaign. That would suggest that the confidence from Corbyn that he can get through this is wafer thin.
Just to put that last point another way, the broad positioning of the manifestos on which nearly all MPs have been elected for the last 15 years is now represented exclusively by the LibDems, and nobody's going to vote for them because they're the LibDems.
Politics has moved away from the Lib Dems very quickly - much as it did 90 years ago.
Politics has, this is my point. But at least a large minority of voters, and maybe even a majority, are still where Cameron and Blair won their elections. It's as if Coke and Pepsi both abandoned cola and decided to sell whisky and herbal tea.
The Tories may still pivot back there, of course.
Cameron and Blair could only win elections on their positions because they were starting from an irreducible core of 200 constituencies where their respective parties would win come what may.
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
Quite true. It really is laughable how both parties are ignoring the election-winning vacuum on the Europhile, liberal, pro-business centre ground
However, the fundamental point still stands: saying that Labour should respond to a Brexit vote by electing a leader who's even more enthusiastically pro-Europe is laughably illogical.
You are missing the point. The MPs want someone who can actually lead the party, not an idiot. Forget what he stands for.
And that is the crux of it. What the Labour party needs now is someone who is half-competent. What has been clearly evident for some time is that Jeremy Corbyn is not up to the job - that interview with Jon Snow was cringe-worthy and embarrassing. He and his friends are deluded and must be removed ASAP. If not, Labour dies...
Some point earlier there was a suggestion that McDonnell was planning a Leadership campaign. That would suggest that the confidence from Corbyn that he can get through this is wafer thin.
McDonnell I think would be a good option for Labour. *cough*
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
Quite true. It really is laughable how both parties are ignoring the election-winning vacuum on the Europhile, liberal, pro-business centre ground
The "election-winning Europhile liberal pro-business centre ground" which......just lost a de-facto election two days ago.
The EU isn't going to allow us to remain even if we wanted to so it's all a bit of wishful thinking.
That could only possibly be true after Britain has invoked Article 50.
We will be forced to invoke article 50.
Forced how? They can't kick us out without a legal mechanism, and there really doesn't seem to be one of those under the Lisbon Treaty. We have to formally notify the European Council of our intention to leave. That's again a formal submission for legal purposes, not some interpretation via the press.
One thing they could do is do what the anti-EU people were always fantasizing about the Eurozone doing and start ganging up on Britain in QMV votes with a view to making the situation intolerable. I don't think they will, though.
Just to put that last point another way, the broad positioning of the manifestos on which nearly all MPs have been elected for the last 15 years is now represented exclusively by the LibDems, and nobody's going to vote for them because they're the LibDems.
Politics has moved away from the Lib Dems very quickly - much as it did 90 years ago.
Politics has, this is my point. But at least a large minority of voters, and maybe even a majority, are still where Cameron and Blair won their elections. It's as if Coke and Pepsi both abandoned cola and decided to sell whisky and herbal tea.
The Tories may still pivot back there, of course.
The Tories will probably quicker to it than labour unless Lab shap up
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
Quite true. It really is laughable how both parties are ignoring the election-winning vacuum on the Europhile, liberal, pro-business centre ground
The "election-winning Europhile liberal pro-business centre ground" which......just lost a de-facto election two days ago.
Some point earlier there was a suggestion that McDonnell was planning a Leadership campaign. That would suggest that the confidence from Corbyn that he can get through this is wafer thin.
McDonnell I think would be a good option for Labour. *cough*
Even though I'm on at 40/1, God no, can you imagine what Mr Meeks will be like ? He tipped him at 50/1.
Most likely the Labour voters DID actually vote to remain overall anyway (Though not the wwc Labour). Tory + UKIP + GE Non voters got leave over the line.
WWC Labour is Labour. If you don't connect with your heartlands, you don't stand a chance.
There is a sizeable London block too.
Inner, not Outer
Labour cannot and will not win by being the Party of Islington.
Some point earlier there was a suggestion that McDonnell was planning a Leadership campaign. That would suggest that the confidence from Corbyn that he can get through this is wafer thin.
McDonnell I think would be a good option for Labour. *cough*
Even though I'm on at 40/1, God no, can you imagine what Mr Meeks will be like ? He tipped him at 50/1.
I feel like he'll change his moniker to "Alastair 50/1 Meeks".
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
Quite true. It really is laughable how both parties are ignoring the election-winning vacuum on the Europhile, liberal, pro-business centre ground
The "election-winning Europhile liberal pro-business centre ground" which......just lost a de-facto election two days ago.
You don't need a majority with FPTP
I think the chances of any one party holding together a coalition of trendy London liberals wanting to show how culturally liberal they are, with the Tory Remain voters in Surrey and Oxfordshire who were voting to protect their jobs with the big multinationals, are pretty slim.
I'm with the EU on this one. Don't see the point in waiting. It was meant to be the morning of.
You don't see the point in waiting when the governing party and the opposition party are in turmoil basically? Who exactly is going to be on the negotiating side for the UK!
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
My main worry for any new centre party cobbling a majority from the tattered remains of everyone else is that NiMo might be the one thought most acceptable to all wings! #gettingaheadofmyself
I can't really see more than 15 Tory MPs supporting Nicky Morgan. And to be honest 15 might be pushing it.
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
My main worry for any new centre party cobbling a majority from the tattered remains of everyone else is that NiMo might be the one thought most acceptable to all wings! #gettingaheadofmyself
I can't really see more than 15 Tory MPs supporting Nicky Morgan. And to be honest 15 might be pushing it.
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
Quite true. It really is laughable how both parties are ignoring the election-winning vacuum on the Europhile, liberal, pro-business centre ground
The "election-winning Europhile liberal pro-business centre ground" which......just lost a de-facto election two days ago.
It did indeed, but only by a few percent, and the winning side is an alliance of capitalist free-traders like Daniel Hannan and working-class ex-Labour people feeling left behind by globalization, which can't possibly form a coherent platform beyond opposition to the current thing.
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
Quite true. It really is laughable how both parties are ignoring the election-winning vacuum on the Europhile, liberal, pro-business centre ground
The "election-winning Europhile liberal pro-business centre ground" which......just lost a de-facto election two days ago.
It did indeed, but only by a few percent, and the winning side is an alliance of capitalist free-traders like Daniel Hannan and working-class ex-Labour people feeling left behind by globalization, which can't possibly form a coherent platform beyond opposition to the current thing.
I think it is a less incoherent alliance than the "Remain" coalition.
The Remain-voting council areas were generally the most Corbynista boroughs, AND the most historically Tory boroughs -- diametrically opposed groups, voting for completely different reasons. No chance of any party holding that alliance together.
Cameron and Blair could only win elections on their positions because they were starting from an irreducible core of 200 constituencies where their respective parties would win come what may.
Very true. That's why I think it would take some very big names with a chance of defending seats as incumbents defecting into the centre. Even if they mirrored the rapid popularity of the SDP, that's still very little in terms of HoC seats. In which case, even more important that the moderate reds/blues get their shit together pronto!
Are the Labour and Tory memberships both going to forget the lessons about electability of the past 20 years?! If the Tories end up with a Brexiteer headbanger and Lab hang on to Corbyn (or sub in McDonnell), there really will be a hell of a white space in the middle, and lots of pissed off people looking into it from the moderate wings of both.
Quite true. It really is laughable how both parties are ignoring the election-winning vacuum on the Europhile, liberal, pro-business centre ground
The "election-winning Europhile liberal pro-business centre ground" which......just lost a de-facto election two days ago.
It did indeed, but only by a few percent, and the winning side is an alliance of capitalist free-traders like Daniel Hannan and working-class ex-Labour people feeling left behind by globalization, which can't possibly form a coherent platform beyond opposition to the current thing.
I think it is a less incoherent alliance than the "Remain" coalition.
The Remain-voting council areas were generally the most Corbynista boroughs, AND the most historically Tory boroughs -- diametrically opposed groups, voting for completely different reasons. No chance of any party holding that together.
The middle classes voted for their wallets The young voted on ideals, as did the working class - just different ideals (liberalism / reduced immigration). Pensioners rectified their error from 1975.
The new fault line in British politics is between what people voted for and what's about to actually happen. Cameron understood that and acted accordingly. It seems most Labour MP's now also realise this. Will they act accordingly ?
I'm with the EU on this one. Don't see the point in waiting. It was meant to be the morning of.
You don't see the point in waiting when the governing party and the opposition party are in turmoil basically? Who exactly is going to be on the negotiating side for the UK!
The new fault line in British politics is between what people voted for and what's about to actually happen. Cameron understood that and acted accordingly. It seems most Labour MP's now also realise this. Will they act accordingly ?
What is about to actually happen? Serious question.
I'm with the EU on this one. Don't see the point in waiting. It was meant to be the morning of.
You don't see the point in waiting when the governing party and the opposition party are in turmoil basically? Who exactly is going to be on the negotiating side for the UK!
The new fault line in British politics is between what people voted for and what's about to actually happen. Cameron understood that and acted accordingly. It seems most Labour MP's now also realise this. Will they act accordingly ?
What is about to actually happen? Serious question.
EEA, it sounds like. Basically the same except no CAP and no voting rights.
People who voted leave expecting to stop immigration will be justifiably narked off.
So he wants Corbyn to declare war on the Parliamentary Labour Party? Such clarity of thinking there...
The Parliamentary Labour Party has been proved beyond doubt to be a group without voters. Example, Tristram Hunt's constituency voted 70% for Leave, how out of touch from your own voters can you be ?
They need to be replaced with people who actually represent the voters or else the Labour party is going to suffer the same fate as it's scottish branch.
Corbyn was voted by the people of Labour to kick the PLP's ass.
And those Blairite idiots have now chosen to declare war on grounds that Labour is out of touch with it's voters over Europe, when it's the Blairites themselves that have been proven to be the ones most out of touch.
Corbyn at least carried his constituency for Remain by a heafty margin, what did the Blairite MP's carry and by a margin? Sunderland? Nope. Birmingham? Nope. Salford? Nope. Sheffield? Nope. Leicester? Nope. Oldham? Nope. Hull? Nope. The Welsh Valleys? Nope.
Nothing, the Blairite MP's carried Nothing.
If they accuse Corbyn of incompetence and out of touchness he can point to the above results and show them who is incompetent and out of touch.
Most likely the Labour voters DID actually vote to remain overall anyway (Though not the wwc Labour). Tory + UKIP + GE Non voters got leave over the line.
37% Labour voted Leave. We wouldn't have won without them. Much higher than the polls were predicting.
The new fault line in British politics is between what people voted for and what's about to actually happen. Cameron understood that and acted accordingly. It seems most Labour MP's now also realise this. Will they act accordingly ?
What is about to actually happen? Serious question.
Nothing is about to happen. We'll sign up to a worse deal, suffer short and medium term economic damage before returning to where we were. Immigration and Globalisation will continue. The new Tory government will put a decidedly right wing stamp on the bits of economic flexibility it achieves. We've had a device vote for change from people who, overwhelming will see their lives get even sh**er. And then what ?
Alex Massie — "David Cameron Was a Historic and Disastrous Failure The prime minister wanted to modernize the Tory Party and unify the United Kingdom. He accomplished exactly the opposite."
The new fault line in British politics is between what people voted for and what's about to actually happen. Cameron understood that and acted accordingly. It seems most Labour MP's now also realise this. Will they act accordingly ?
I doubt the Labour MP's who shamelessly went against their constituents will fall on their swords and retire to save their dignity, Corbyn will have to force them out.
Let the cleaning of the Labour (Augean) stables begin, and with a greek song since we are talking about a Herculean task:
Most likely the Labour voters DID actually vote to remain overall anyway (Though not the wwc Labour). Tory + UKIP + GE Non voters got leave over the line.
WWC Labour is Labour. If you don't connect with your heartlands, you don't stand a chance.
There is a sizeable London block too.
Inner, not Outer
Labour cannot and will not win by being the Party of Islington.
Problem for Labour is their core vote is made up of a broad coalition who have very different values. There is the middle class metro liberals who believe in high migration and a internationalist outlook. There are the wwc class who are against high migration and are very patriotic and don't want to be ruled by foreign government s. (can u see a problem here?) &there is the ethnic minority vote who so far have been very loyal to the Labour party despite class because the Tory's are seen as hostile to them.
Most likely the Labour voters DID actually vote to remain overall anyway (Though not the wwc Labour). Tory + UKIP + GE Non voters got leave over the line.
WWC Labour is Labour. If you don't connect with your heartlands, you don't stand a chance.
There is a sizeable London block too.
Inner, not Outer
Labour cannot and will not win by being the Party of Islington.
Problem for Labour is their core vote is made up of a broad coalition who have very different values. There is the middle class metro liberals who believe in high migration and a internationalist outlook. There are the wwc class who are against high migration and are very patriotic and don't want to be ruled by foreign government s. (can u see a problem here?) &there is the ethnic minority vote who so far have been very loyal to the Labour party despite class because the Tory's are seen as hostile to them.
A broad core vote indeed.
They need to make Internationalism and Globalization two separate things, the left is fuming against Globalization for more than a decade.
You can't be a party that is Internationalist and supports Globalization, if you do then you are doomed to the fate of the other centre-left parties in Europe who failed to distinguish between the two.
Internationalism is supposed to mean workers and class solidarity around the world not support for Global Finance Conglomerates and World Economic Forums.
Most likely the Labour voters DID actually vote to remain overall anyway (Though not the wwc Labour). Tory + UKIP + GE Non voters got leave over the line.
37% Labour voted Leave. We wouldn't have won without them. Much higher than the polls were predicting.
Not really. Polls were predicting 65:35. It was 63:37. The turnout was also lower than Tories / UKIP. The Tory shire vote was higher than expected.
Alex Massie — "David Cameron Was a Historic and Disastrous Failure The prime minister wanted to modernize the Tory Party and unify the United Kingdom. He accomplished exactly the opposite."
He went too far too fast and stayed as leader too long. Basically what eat Thatcher.
Cameron lasted 11 years as Tory leader, it was too long. People from the same generation would demand their go before they would get too old.
And Cameron's policies didn't actually made the Tories more popular (he got the same share in both elections), it just made Tories uneasy and spread internal dissent. Just like Thatcher battling scottish and merseyside Tories and social liberal Tories while getting the same share of the vote in every election.
In the end Cameron just like Thatcher and Blair stayed too long and made too many enemies.
Lets not kid ourselves, this was a reverse 1990, same issue but the losers of 1990 became the winners of 2016. Thatcher got her revenge on the Tory Europhiles from beyond the grave.
"The result was a massive shock to the citizens of London, Manchester and other cosmopolitan cities, who discovered that much of provincial England utterly rejects their Europhile worldview. It leaves both the Tories and Labour facing stark challenges. The divides in identity, values and outlook it reveals cut straight across class, income and geography."
Most likely the Labour voters DID actually vote to remain overall anyway (Though not the wwc Labour). Tory + UKIP + GE Non voters got leave over the line.
37% Labour voted Leave. We wouldn't have won without them. Much higher than the polls were predicting.
Not really. Polls were predicting 65:35. It was 63:37. The turnout was also lower than Tories / UKIP. The Tory shire vote was higher than expected.
Oh I though most phone polls had it below 30%. Anyway the DEC2 plus half of C1 won it for Leave, much more than Tory shires.
The Telegraph: A hard and uncertain road lies ahead in Britain's long march away from European Union. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwsIiQ3SU < From one of the few Brexiters who told the truth before the vote. Even harder truths now.
Most likely the Labour voters DID actually vote to remain overall anyway (Though not the wwc Labour). Tory + UKIP + GE Non voters got leave over the line.
37% Labour voted Leave. We wouldn't have won without them. Much higher than the polls were predicting.
Not really. Polls were predicting 65:35. It was 63:37. The turnout was also lower than Tories / UKIP. The Tory shire vote was higher than expected.
Oh I though most phone polls had it below 30%. Anyway the DEC2 plus half of C1 won it for Leave, much more than Tory shires.
That is possible. However, the Labour split was more or less as expected. Worse, in the Northen heartlands but made up in London to an extent.Leave won because their turnout was higher. Remember 72% was not expected..
Comments
Corbyn is at least in tune with the members.
Oh yes, that would have required him to show leadership
A little-noticed nugget from the Ashcroft poll the other day: a small majority of Leave voters agreed with the statement that "capitalism is more a force for ill than good"...
The behind-the-scenes story of a failed campaign to keep Britain in the European Union."
http://www.politico.eu/article/how-david-cameron-lost-brexit-eu-referendum-prime-minister-campaign-remain-boris-craig-oliver-jim-messina-obama/
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/brexit-martin-schulz-fordert-austrittsantrag-bis-dienstag-a-1099824.html
The centre (or centre-left or centre-right) needs a bulky chunk of Lab and/or Con (and/or LibDem) names, with a heavyweight leader who's had a real job or two and can connect with the WWC. Assuming Brexit isn't going to be unpicked and will be negotiated by the headbanger Tory, they can probably park Europe as an issue.
The daft thing is, if Boris had ascended fresh from his stint as mayor, with all the judicious nods to multiculturalism and big-ticket infrastructure, that middle ground would be his. But he's very firmly parked himself on the right, with some very tricky business to negotiate if he doesn't want to fall over.
The Tories may still pivot back there, of course.
http://gu.com/p/4myfh?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Labour cannot and will not win by being the Party of Islington.
https://twitter.com/BenPBradshaw/status/746863492750282752
Kill them all !
http://gu.com/p/4mydg?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
The Remain-voting council areas were generally the most Corbynista boroughs, AND the most historically Tory boroughs -- diametrically opposed groups, voting for completely different reasons. No chance of any party holding that alliance together.
http://gu.com/p/4my6k?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
The young voted on ideals, as did the working class - just different ideals (liberalism / reduced immigration).
Pensioners rectified their error from 1975.
Hurray.
Get the bastards Jeremy.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DrAlanGreene/status/695037978138304512?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
People who voted leave expecting to stop immigration will be justifiably narked off.
Example, Tristram Hunt's constituency voted 70% for Leave, how out of touch from your own voters can you be ?
They need to be replaced with people who actually represent the voters or else the Labour party is going to suffer the same fate as it's scottish branch.
Corbyn was voted by the people of Labour to kick the PLP's ass.
And those Blairite idiots have now chosen to declare war on grounds that Labour is out of touch with it's voters over Europe, when it's the Blairites themselves that have been proven to be the ones most out of touch.
Corbyn at least carried his constituency for Remain by a heafty margin, what did the Blairite MP's carry and by a margin?
Sunderland? Nope. Birmingham? Nope. Salford? Nope. Sheffield? Nope. Leicester? Nope. Oldham? Nope. Hull? Nope. The Welsh Valleys? Nope.
Nothing, the Blairite MP's carried Nothing.
If they accuse Corbyn of incompetence and out of touchness he can point to the above results and show them who is incompetent and out of touch.
The prime minister wanted to modernize the Tory Party and unify the United Kingdom. He accomplished exactly the opposite."
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/24/david-cameron-was-a-historic-and-disastrous-failure/
Let the cleaning of the Labour (Augean) stables begin, and with a greek song since we are talking about a Herculean task:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZbbL4LcIlk
There is the middle class metro liberals who believe in high migration and a internationalist outlook.
There are the wwc class who are against high migration and are very patriotic and don't want to be ruled by foreign government s. (can u see a problem here?)
&there is the ethnic minority vote who so far have been very loyal to the Labour party despite class because the Tory's are seen as hostile to them.
A broad core vote indeed.
You can't be a party that is Internationalist and supports Globalization, if you do then you are doomed to the fate of the other centre-left parties in Europe who failed to distinguish between the two.
Internationalism is supposed to mean workers and class solidarity around the world not support for Global Finance Conglomerates and World Economic Forums.
Basically what eat Thatcher.
Cameron lasted 11 years as Tory leader, it was too long.
People from the same generation would demand their go before they would get too old.
And Cameron's policies didn't actually made the Tories more popular (he got the same share in both elections), it just made Tories uneasy and spread internal dissent.
Just like Thatcher battling scottish and merseyside Tories and social liberal Tories while getting the same share of the vote in every election.
In the end Cameron just like Thatcher and Blair stayed too long and made too many enemies.
Lets not kid ourselves, this was a reverse 1990, same issue but the losers of 1990 became the winners of 2016.
Thatcher got her revenge on the Tory Europhiles from beyond the grave.
"The result was a massive shock to the citizens of London, Manchester and other cosmopolitan cities, who discovered that much of provincial England utterly rejects their Europhile worldview. It leaves both the Tories and Labour facing stark challenges. The divides in identity, values and outlook it reveals cut straight across class, income and geography."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/left-behind-eu-referendum-vote-ukip-revolt-brexit