Hillary Benn is my MP. I'm not a Labour voter, but I believe he's a man of principle. The U.K. needs a strong opposition. It's time for Labour to act against Corbyn...
Hillary Benn is my MP. I'm not a Labour voter, but I believe he's a man of principle. The U.K. needs a strong opposition. It's time for Labour to act against Corbyn...
Problem is even if they somehow manage it they'll only replace him with someone who is even more of an electoral disaster.
Despite my previous statement, I haven't actually got around to cancelling my Labour Party membership yet so would be eligible to vote in any leadership election.
I voted for Corbyn first time round. Not going to happen this time. Others I know have the same view.
Benn will be as effective as Crispin Blunt was against IDS when he resigned from the Tory front bench in early 2003. Corbyn is strengthened by an Out vote as he is the most Eurosceptic of the Shadow Cabinet and the members still back him. Until Corbyn/McDonnell lose a general election the membership will not consider a more centrist alternative so he stays
Hillary Benn is my MP. I'm not a Labour voter, but I believe he's a man of principle. The U.K. needs a strong opposition. It's time for Labour to act against Corbyn...
He was terribly wet and indistinguishable from a Remain Tory on the BBC last night. He's delivered one great speech - so did Diane.
I remain to be convinced that Hilary is more than that. I hope he is.
However, the fundamental point still stands: saying that Labour should respond to a Brexit vote by electing a leader who's even more enthusiastically pro-Europe is laughably illogical.
Hillary Benn is my MP. I'm not a Labour voter, but I believe he's a man of principle. The U.K. needs a strong opposition. It's time for Labour to act against Corbyn...
He was terribly wet and indistinguishable from a Remain Tory on the BBC last night. He's delivered one great speech - so did Diane.
I remain to be convinced that Hilary is more than that. I hope he is.
Thing is, although I'm far from a Labour voter, I'd trust Benn. That party needs someone to steady the ship. As was seen today (and in the past few months) Corbyn just isn't up to it.
By getting rid of him, Corbyn is adding to the knives in his back. The Labour Party is in civil war...
However, the fundamental point still stands: saying that Labour should respond to a Brexit vote by electing a leader who's even more enthusiastically pro-Europe is laughably illogical.
As an outsider, I honestly can't see any logic in it.
Then again - Remain using Cameron/Osborne to front a campaign to appeal to Labour voters was totally insane.
Benn will be as effective as Crispin Blunt was against IDS when he resigned from the Tory front bench in early 2003. Corbyn is strengthened by an Out vote as he is the most Eurosceptic of the Shadow Cabinet and the members still back him. Until Corbyn/McDonnell lose a general election the membership will not consider a more centrist alternative so he stays
Don't agree. Corbyn will be properly tested in a leadership election this time. The 'awe shucks I'm just a principled guy who can't dress properly' wont wash this time around.
He is wet and pathetic and useless and it will come across. The summer romance that elected him is over IMHO. He just helped lose the UK from EU as Toynbee has pointed out. Will the herbivores still back him?
Nah Seriously, if the Labourites think this is the issue to go after Corbyn on then they are utterly deluded.
No Labour leader will be able to get the working class on the side of the EU for a very very long time.
Seriously, this whole referendum has confirmed to me (even as someone in the "right-wing half of the party" as of the last leadership election) that the PLP have completely lost their marbles, when it comes to their guiding principles. On the Welfare Bill and cuts more generally, they were/are happy to abstain and throw poor people into poverty, for the sake of electability. Yet when it comes to the EU, they'll go to the mattresses to defend it and that they should be willing to ruin the party's electoral success for its sake, just so they can spout platitudes about how "outward-looking" and "internationalist" they are. Utter madness.
Bit disappointed about the Labour coup - will take news agenda away from nefarious means of reversing the referendum result.
The Petition has got up to 2.7 million now - I've helped it along a bit, signed quite a few times but am running out of IP addresses. I'm hoping that the more preposterously large the number gets, the more anti-democratic forces can be smoked out by tempting them into "doing a Lammy".
Bit disappointed about the Labour coup - will take news agenda away from nefarious means of reversing the referendum result.
The Petition has got up to 2.7 million now - I've helped it along a bit, signed quite a few times but am running out of IP addresses. I'm hoping that the more preposterously large the number gets, the more anti-democratic forces can be smoked out by tempting them into "doing a Lammy".
Vote early, vote often?
Edit: the petition website really needs a disagree button.
Benn will be as effective as Crispin Blunt was against IDS when he resigned from the Tory front bench in early 2003. Corbyn is strengthened by an Out vote as he is the most Eurosceptic of the Shadow Cabinet and the members still back him. Until Corbyn/McDonnell lose a general election the membership will not consider a more centrist alternative so he stays
Don't agree. Corbyn will be properly tested in a leadership election this time. The 'awe shucks I'm just a principled guy who can't dress properly' wont wash this time around.
He is wet and pathetic and useless and it will come across. The summer romance that elected him is over IMHO. He just helped lose the UK from EU as Toynbee has pointed out. Will the herbivores still back him?
The herbivores want a leftwing leader to lead them to victory, until they lose a general election under a leftwing leader they won't change their mind I am afraid. Even if Corbyn had been a passionate campaigner for the EU Remain would still have lost, the wwc voters who voted Leave did so because of immigration not because Corbyn was not a committed enough Remainer!
Hilary Benn seems like a plausible leader for SDPv2.
The way to make it work this time where it failed last time is: 1) Join with Lib immediately - they need a new brand anyhow. 2) Get some Tory defectors as well. 3) Both Con and Lab are split by UKIP, so you have a big centrist block against a fragmented right and left.
However, the fundamental point still stands: saying that Labour should respond to a Brexit vote by electing a leader who's even more enthusiastically pro-Europe is laughably illogical.
You are missing the point. The MPs want someone who can actually lead the party, not an idiot. Forget what he stands for.
With every passing minute the concerns of the Labour Party become more distant from their traditional voters.
Corbyn can go after them now but he needs to be anti-free trade as well as anti-immigration. Can't do it until the centrists (ie almost his entire parliamentary party) leave.
I wouldn't trade places with Jeremy Corbyn right now for all the whiskey in Ireland
In all honesty, it made no sense for him to try a balanced cabinet to start with. Especially Hillary Benn. He should have been stacking it with Corbynites. Of course he has done that with the NEC. So its over for the Blairites anyway.
Bit disappointed about the Labour coup - will take news agenda away from nefarious means of reversing the referendum result.
The Petition has got up to 2.7 million now - I've helped it along a bit, signed quite a few times but am running out of IP addresses. I'm hoping that the more preposterously large the number gets, the more anti-democratic forces can be smoked out by tempting them into "doing a Lammy".
Hilary Benn seems like a plausible leader for SDPv2.
The way to make it work this time where it failed last time is: 1) Join with Lib immediately - they need a new brand anyhow. 2) Get some Tory defectors as well. 3) Both Con and Lab are split by UKIP, so you have a big centrist block against a fragmented right and left.
The SDPv2, running on the platform the Lib Dems stood on in 2015 (economic conservatism, cultural liberalism). How well did it work out for them?
Bit disappointed about the Labour coup - will take news agenda away from nefarious means of reversing the referendum result.
The Petition has got up to 2.7 million now - I've helped it along a bit, signed quite a few times but am running out of IP addresses. I'm hoping that the more preposterously large the number gets, the more anti-democratic forces can be smoked out by tempting them into "doing a Lammy".
Vote early, vote often?
Edit: the petition website really needs a disagree button.
I'm doing my best.
If petitions are democratic I suppose I'm subverting democracy, but something this pathetic and anti-democratic doesn't deserve any respect. Would love to see it cross the 5 million mark, if only to see which politicians show their true colours by taking it seriously.
Benn will be as effective as Crispin Blunt was against IDS when he resigned from the Tory front bench in early 2003. Corbyn is strengthened by an Out vote as he is the most Eurosceptic of the Shadow Cabinet and the members still back him. Until Corbyn/McDonnell lose a general election the membership will not consider a more centrist alternative so he stays
Don't agree. Corbyn will be properly tested in a leadership election this time. The 'awe shucks I'm just a principled guy who can't dress properly' wont wash this time around.
He is wet and pathetic and useless and it will come across. The summer romance that elected him is over IMHO. He just helped lose the UK from EU as Toynbee has pointed out. Will the herbivores still back him?
The herbivores want a leftwing leader to lead them to victory, until they lose a general election under a leftwing leader they won't change their mind I am afraid. Even if Corbyn had been a passionate campaigner for the EU Remain would still have lost, the wwc voters who voted Leave did so because of immigration not because Corbyn was not a committed enough Remainer!
Then let then choose McDonnell. At least he appears like he can actually organize something.
However, the fundamental point still stands: saying that Labour should respond to a Brexit vote by electing a leader who's even more enthusiastically pro-Europe is laughably illogical.
You are missing the point. The MPs want someone who can actually lead the party, not an idiot. Forget what he stands for.
Someone who can "actually lead the party" would be someone who has an ability to read the public mood. Hilary Benn self-evidently can't do that, otherwise he would've foreseen that backing staying in the EU was a bad move for Labour.
Nah Seriously, if the Labourites think this is the issue to go after Corbyn on then they are utterly deluded.
No Labour leader will be able to get the working class on the side of the EU for a very very long time.
Did the Labour voter split end up about 60:40 for Remain and is there much evidence of differential splits actually WITHIN Labour ranks in the Northern towns? Thought the main driver was the 20-25% UKIP vote already seen in places in the North, as opposed to a 10%+ Green vote in a lot of London boroughs.
And we have the activist : voter base divide to contend with. Again.
And if does all go up the creek, a leader sending cute puppy dog eyes across the channel may suddenly seem much more appealing.
There is a gamble here, but it is absolutely the issue to go after Corbyn on.
Bit disappointed about the Labour coup - will take news agenda away from nefarious means of reversing the referendum result.
The Petition has got up to 2.7 million now - I've helped it along a bit, signed quite a few times but am running out of IP addresses. I'm hoping that the more preposterously large the number gets, the more anti-democratic forces can be smoked out by tempting them into "doing a Lammy".
It's like the Peoples' Choice Awards. I know many who spend hours a week pressing F5 to vote up their preferred screen personality.
Benn will be as effective as Crispin Blunt was against IDS when he resigned from the Tory front bench in early 2003. Corbyn is strengthened by an Out vote as he is the most Eurosceptic of the Shadow Cabinet and the members still back him. Until Corbyn/McDonnell lose a general election the membership will not consider a more centrist alternative so he stays
Don't agree. Corbyn will be properly tested in a leadership election this time. The 'awe shucks I'm just a principled guy who can't dress properly' wont wash this time around.
He is wet and pathetic and useless and it will come across. The summer romance that elected him is over IMHO. He just helped lose the UK from EU as Toynbee has pointed out. Will the herbivores still back him?
The herbivores want a leftwing leader to lead them to victory, until they lose a general election under a leftwing leader they won't change their mind I am afraid. Even if Corbyn had been a passionate campaigner for the EU Remain would still have lost, the wwc voters who voted Leave did so because of immigration not because Corbyn was not a committed enough Remainer!
Then let then choose McDonnell. At least he appears like he can actually organize something.
Interesting that McDonnell's council area in Hillingdon voted 56% Leave.
Nah Seriously, if the Labourites think this is the issue to go after Corbyn on then they are utterly deluded.
No Labour leader will be able to get the working class on the side of the EU for a very very long time.
But if everyone doesn't support immigration and multiculturalism THERE MUST BE SOMEONE TO BLAME.
It can't possible be the people, they're just deluded, it must be the leader of the Labour Party. It has nothing to do with a complete failure to get a positive message about immigration out there.
Blame Corbyn and sweep the issues under the carpet. It worked before...
The problem with Corbyn isn't that he is left wing. It's that he's a hopeless leader.
This is not the same as proving anyone else would be less hopeless. While Corbyn is obviously not doing well, we saw with the Remain Campaign what happens when the Labour moderates' playbook is tried in an electoral contest.
The problem with Corbyn isn't that he is left wing. It's that he's a hopeless leader.
Quite. His biggest problem is questions. As soon as someone challenges him, he gets defensive and comes out with a response that un-voter friendly and ill-advised.
Say what you want about his principles, presentationally he's awful.
Hilary Benn seems like a plausible leader for SDPv2.
The way to make it work this time where it failed last time is: 1) Join with Lib immediately - they need a new brand anyhow. 2) Get some Tory defectors as well. 3) Both Con and Lab are split by UKIP, so you have a big centrist block against a fragmented right and left.
The SDPv2, running on the platform the Lib Dems stood on in 2015 (economic conservatism, cultural liberalism). How well did it work out for them?
It's didn't work out great for them, but aside from Ed Miliband's token efforts at economic populism (freeze energy bills for 25 minutes or whatever) they were sharing that space with basically the entire Labour and Conservative parties. *And* they'd destroyed their own brand with tuition fees etc.
Now this huge space is entirely vacant. This is amazing, but true.
The problem with Corbyn isn't that he is left wing. It's that he's a hopeless leader.
This is not the same as proving anyone else would be less hopeless. While Corbyn is obviously not doing well, we saw with the Remain Campaign what happens when the Labour moderates' playbook is tried in an electoral contest.
Hell, let Labour give it go. Could anyone be worse? Abbot not included.
The problem with Corbyn isn't that he is left wing. It's that he's a hopeless leader.
Hurrah! Exactly. I just don't see what the Corbynists see in him. He is clearly completely and utterly out of his depth.
So what, so was IDS who was replaced with Michael Howard who was just as rightwing and lost the 2005 election anyway. If Corbyn is replaced it will only be McDonnell who the members will now accept before the next general election
Just to put that last point another way, the broad positioning of the manifestos on which nearly all MPs have been elected for the last 15 years is now represented exclusively by the LibDems, and nobody's going to vote for them because they're the LibDems.
I expect when he has slept on it, TSE will tell us that the coup against Corbyn was actually being organised by that master tactician, George Osborne. Explains his absence over the past 24 hours...
The EU isn't going to allow us to remain even if we wanted to so it's all a bit of wishful thinking.
That could only possibly be true after Britain has invoked Article 50.
We will be forced to invoke article 50.
Forced how? They can't kick us out without a legal mechanism, and there really doesn't seem to be one of those under the Lisbon Treaty. We have to formally notify the European Council of our intention to leave. That's again a formal submission for legal purposes, not some interpretation via the press.
Nah Seriously, if the Labourites think this is the issue to go after Corbyn on then they are utterly deluded.
No Labour leader will be able to get the working class on the side of the EU for a very very long time.
Seriously, this whole referendum has confirmed to me (even as someone in the "right-wing half of the party" as of the last leadership election) that the PLP have completely lost their marbles, when it comes to their guiding principles. On the Welfare Bill and cuts more generally, they were/are happy to abstain and throw poor people into poverty, for the sake of electability. Yet when it comes to the EU, they'll go to the mattresses to defend it and that they should be willing to ruin the party's electoral success for its sake, just so they can spout platitudes about how "outward-looking" and "internationalist" they are. Utter madness.
I wish that this site had a "like" button. Well said!
The problem with Corbyn isn't that he is left wing. It's that he's a hopeless leader.
This is not the same as proving anyone else would be less hopeless. While Corbyn is obviously not doing well, we saw with the Remain Campaign what happens when the Labour moderates' playbook is tried in an electoral contest.
Hell, let Labour give it go. Could anyone be worse? Abbot not included.
Yes, it definitely can. May's local election results were not very good, but the vote atleast held up decently in the Labour heartlands, as opposed to what happened in the EU Referendum.
I know you don't agree with me, but I genuinely believe the Remain campaign (which, again, many of the Labour "moderates" were seriously involved in the planning of) is a preview of what will happen if they get control of the party -- utter wipeout for Labour outside of London. The SPAD class of Labour have spent so long insulated in their bubble that they are utterly disconnected from "normal people". I would happily vote for Benn if I thought he'd be a successful leader electorally, but I genuinely believe that he (and most other Labour MPs) has absolutely no clue how WWC Labour voters think or what kind of arguments resonate with them, even less of a clue than Corbyn.
Bit disappointed about the Labour coup - will take news agenda away from nefarious means of reversing the referendum result.
The Petition has got up to 2.7 million now - I've helped it along a bit, signed quite a few times but am running out of IP addresses. I'm hoping that the more preposterously large the number gets, the more anti-democratic forces can be smoked out by tempting them into "doing a Lammy".
The EU isn't going to allow us to remain even if we wanted to so it's all a bit of wishful thinking.
That could only possibly be true after Britain has invoked Article 50.
We will be forced to invoke article 50.
Forced how? They can't kick us out without a legal mechanism, and there really doesn't seem to be one of those under the Lisbon Treaty. We have to formally notify the European Council of our intention to leave. That's again a formal submission for legal purposes, not some interpretation via the press.
The EU are quoting RBS vs Wilson which defines that Shall means Will. It is possible they will use that in the ECJ to rule that not on Shall means Will but WIll means Now.
There is little other reason for their use of the language.
Comments
I hope Corbyn slaughters the lorra 'em.
I'm going to sleep. Feck knows what I'm going to wake up to in the morning.
I voted for Corbyn first time round. Not going to happen this time.
Others I know have the same view.
I remain to be convinced that Hilary is more than that. I hope he is.
No Labour leader will be able to get the working class on the side of the EU for a very very long time.
However, the fundamental point still stands: saying that Labour should respond to a Brexit vote by electing a leader who's even more enthusiastically pro-Europe is laughably illogical.
What incredible value.
And the membership are not the voters.
By getting rid of him, Corbyn is adding to the knives in his back. The Labour Party is in civil war...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-opinion-poll-reveals-majority-8283139
The question is can John McDonnell piss and chew gum at the same time?
Then again - Remain using Cameron/Osborne to front a campaign to appeal to Labour voters was totally insane.
We're in post-braincells politics.
He is wet and pathetic and useless and it will come across. The summer romance that elected him is over IMHO. He just helped lose the UK from EU as Toynbee has pointed out. Will the herbivores still back him?
Bit disappointed about the Labour coup - will take news agenda away from nefarious means of reversing the referendum result.
The Petition has got up to 2.7 million now - I've helped it along a bit, signed quite a few times but am running out of IP addresses. I'm hoping that the more preposterously large the number gets, the more anti-democratic forces can be smoked out by tempting them into "doing a Lammy".
Edit: the petition website really needs a disagree button.
Never mind Russia, if Iceland invaded i wouldn't hold out much hope of repelling them.
Indeed, they're in a total London bubble.
The way to make it work this time where it failed last time is:
1) Join with Lib immediately - they need a new brand anyhow.
2) Get some Tory defectors as well.
3) Both Con and Lab are split by UKIP, so you have a big centrist block against a fragmented right and left.
Bump him off for his sins, not for trying to be a team player.
https://twitter.com/fratzz/status/746773756677349380
He should put on a string-vest and a pair of Jesus-boots.
Landslide victory again...
If petitions are democratic I suppose I'm subverting democracy, but something this pathetic and anti-democratic doesn't deserve any respect. Would love to see it cross the 5 million mark, if only to see which politicians show their true colours by taking it seriously.
And we have the activist : voter base divide to contend with. Again.
And if does all go up the creek, a leader sending cute puppy dog eyes across the channel may suddenly seem much more appealing.
There is a gamble here, but it is absolutely the issue to go after Corbyn on.
It's weird, but folks do it.
It can't possible be the people, they're just deluded, it must be the leader of the Labour Party. It has nothing to do with a complete failure to get a positive message about immigration out there.
Blame Corbyn and sweep the issues under the carpet. It worked before...
Still, it makes a change to the narrative!
Say what you want about his principles, presentationally he's awful.
Now this huge space is entirely vacant. This is amazing, but true.
But in an "open" election, probably McDonnell.
https://twitter.com/Metanar/status/746867844214833155
Which probably means the LibDem MPs will launch a coup against Farron in the next hour.
Well said!
Corbyn is in panic mode. Lashing out at people.
And it ain't over yet
Corbyn might get some union support and the tory £3'ers, but I doubt that will be enough against a electable centrist.
Watch Tom Watson. I don't think he wants the gig himself but whoever he supports will probably win.
Still odds against a successful coup IMO.
I know you don't agree with me, but I genuinely believe the Remain campaign (which, again, many of the Labour "moderates" were seriously involved in the planning of) is a preview of what will happen if they get control of the party -- utter wipeout for Labour outside of London. The SPAD class of Labour have spent so long insulated in their bubble that they are utterly disconnected from "normal people". I would happily vote for Benn if I thought he'd be a successful leader electorally, but I genuinely believe that he (and most other Labour MPs) has absolutely no clue how WWC Labour voters think or what kind of arguments resonate with them, even less of a clue than Corbyn.
There is little other reason for their use of the language.
Ah sorry, thought you said Council meeting. Yes, I agree with you, although a GE may get in the way?