I wish Leavers would come to a consensus about whether the EU is set on an irreversible path towards a federal superstate, or is going to fall apart within 3-4 years under a mass of its own contradictions. And if the latter why they foresee no attempts at reform of the like they would presumably have liked to see in Cameron's deal (for those who claim to genuinely believe they could have been persuaded to vote Remain) to make the whole thing work.
Why should they? The two alternatives are hardly mutually exclusive, and in fact the faster the EU motors towards a federal superstate without bring along the electorates, the more a case can be made that a collapse becomes likely absent any correction of the deficit of democracy.
As for why no attempts have been made at reform, well I guess you've never worked in a bureaucracy.
Maybe Osborne's "emergency budget" was after all a masterpiece of political campaigning...
I keep on telling people, Osborne is awesome
You are trolling, but if you don't get rid of Osborne after this referendum (speak to your chums in CCHQ) the party is in deep, deep trouble.
I suspect deep down you know this.
Care to elaborate on that?
Yup, we're not in Schengen, we're not in the Eurozone, I suspect we'll take the role of the leader of the non Schengen/Eurozone blocs.
A Remain vote should mean all-in. Join Shengen, join the Euro, take Eurovision seriously.
Better to be balls deep in the EU than the never ending foreplay we've had for 40 years.
I do hope this is irony.
Only the bit about Eurovision.
I'm a Leaver, but if we are going to commit to the EU I would prefer full commitment than continued wingeing from the back of the room.
A third of the EU is not in the Eurozone. Are we going to insist they all join along with us?
Only Denmark and the UK have opt outs from the Eurozone. All the other members are bound by treaty to join eventually.
Technically yes, but Sweden cracked the cheat codes.
I'd imagine they'll join of their own volition eventually, though.
Nope. They have only managed to delay the inevitable. Unless they want to break the TEU and TFEU they will have to join at some point. Or they will be forced out of the EU. Of course the EU will continue to kick this can down the road for some time but when things start to to seriously wrong they will have to force the issue.
Arguably they're breaking the spirit of the treaty but technically their workaround works forever. They're not obliged to join the ERM, and if you don't join the ERM you can't join the Euro. What do you think is going to change so that they do have to join it?
I wish Leavers would come to a consensus about whether the EU is set on an irreversible path towards a federal superstate, or is going to fall apart within 3-4 years under a mass of its own contradictions. And if the latter why they foresee no attempts at reform of the like they would presumably have liked to see in Cameron's deal (for those who claim to genuinely believe they could have been persuaded to vote Remain) to make the whole thing work.
It can be headed on the road to a federal superstate that will also fall apart or fray at the edges. Can't see it taking less than 4 years but there are strains in the system.
I would have liked the EU to actually consider free movement, it didn't.
I would like the EU to have removed itself from a number of areas. Tax law being one which would have been handy as it would help our deficit no end. There are others also.
I wish Leavers would come to a consensus about whether the EU is set on an irreversible path towards a federal superstate, or is going to fall apart within 3-4 years under a mass of its own contradictions. And if the latter why they foresee no attempts at reform of the like they would presumably have liked to see in Cameron's deal (for those who claim to genuinely believe they could have been persuaded to vote Remain) to make the whole thing work.
It can be headed on the road to a federal superstate that will also fall apart or fray at the edges. Can't see it taking less than 4 years but there are strains in the system.
I would have liked the EU to actually consider free movement, it didn't.
I would like the EU to have removed itself from a number of areas. Tax law being one which would have been handy as it would help our deficit no end. There are others also.
I'm starting to seethe with anger at the thought that Remain could win.
The lies on Turkey. The lies that no more powers will go to Brussels. The lies over our special protections. The moment ANY more power is handed to Brussels the Conservative Parliamentary Party must block at all costs and attempt to force another referendum. If it brings down the government and tears the Tory Party apart then do it.
If Remain are to win this on promising no more powers to Brussels and then proceed to hand over more powers, then we're entitled to have another referendum. False prospectus.
If my opponents were honest and argued for a federal Europe and closer union and I lost then fair enough. But what makes me so angry is how they'll lie through their teeth to us. My blood boils.
"The lies on Turkey" - as told by the Leave campaign.
I'm sure you'll agree with me then that the moment Turkey is granted visa exceptions or is admitted to the European Union then we're entitled to have another referendum?
And the same goes for any more transfers of powers to Brussels which your side lies through the teeth and says will not happen. If it happens, another referendum - yes?
If you think your going to get away with this on the sly you've another thing coming. And the immigration issue is a pressure cooker waiting to explode. You'll all rue the day.
We should have a referendum if Turkey gets the same status as Malaysia and is allowed visa free access to the Schengen zone?
Visa free access seems an odd thing to whinge about except in the context that we've been promised it will not happen here (by remain) when:
1. It is likely to happen (in the case of special passport holders)
2. It isn't unreasonable.
But that isn't what happens. Rather than make a reasonable sensible case for 1.5 million Turks to be able to visit the UK they just lie. That corrodes trust. It's nuts.
I'm starting to seethe with anger at the thought that Remain could win.
The lies on Turkey. The lies that no more powers will go to Brussels. The lies over our special protections. The moment ANY more power is handed to Brussels the Conservative Parliamentary Party must block at all costs and attempt to force another referendum. If it brings down the government and tears the Tory Party apart then do it.
If Remain are to win this on promising no more powers to Brussels and then proceed to hand over more powers, then we're entitled to have another referendum. False prospectus.
If my opponents were honest and argued for a federal Europe and closer union and I lost then fair enough. But what makes me so angry is how they'll lie through their teeth to us. My blood boils.
"The lies on Turkey" - as told by the Leave campaign.
I'm sure you'll agree with me then that the moment Turkey is granted visa exceptions or is admitted to the European Union then we're entitled to have another referendum?
And the same goes for any more transfers of powers to Brussels which your side lies through the teeth and says will not happen. If it happens, another referendum - yes?
If you think your going to get away with this on the sly you've another thing coming. And the immigration issue is a pressure cooker waiting to explode. You'll all rue the day.
We should have a referendum if Turkey gets the same status as Malaysia and is allowed visa free access to the Schengen zone?
Do Indians need visas to visit Britain after Cameron's visit to India ? If Turks were so eager to get to Europe , how come they were not getting on the boats that were leaving their own country ?
We are talking about Turkey, the 15th biggest economy in the world.
Re polling, we're back to where we were last weekend, before the sudden shift to Leave that occurred over the next few days.
I wonder whether the truth has suddenly dawned that getting rid of immigrants isn't cost free. The price you'd have to pay is Farage as the new Britannia?
Remain were certainly planning to end their campaign on Farage. It was only derailed by Jo Cox's murder.
Andrew Neil @afneil Andrew Neil Retweeted Alastair Campbell Good to see Campaign discourse become more civilised, less nasty, less hyperbolic, more reasoned, more respectful
Alastair CampbellVerified account @campbellclaret The freedom Britain needs is freedom from a nasty Brexit Lie Machine run by tax dodgers and multi-millionaire liars fuelling anger and hate
I'm starting to seethe with anger at the thought that Remain could win.
The lies on Turkey. The lies that no more powers will go to Brussels. The lies over our special protections. The moment ANY more power is handed to Brussels the Conservative Parliamentary Party must block at all costs and attempt to force another referendum. If it brings down the government and tears the Tory Party apart then do it.
If Remain are to win this on promising no more powers to Brussels and then proceed to hand over more powers, then we're entitled to have another referendum. False prospectus.
If my opponents were honest and argued for a federal Europe and closer union and I lost then fair enough. But what makes me so angry is how they'll lie through their teeth to us. My blood boils.
"The lies on Turkey" - as told by the Leave campaign.
Look on the bright side. If Remain win you'll b abe to go to Turkey and find a completely empty country.
Like Romania and Bulgaria are after 29 million people emigrated from there to Eastleigh?
Andrew Neil @afneil Andrew Neil Retweeted Alastair Campbell Good to see Campaign discourse become more civilised, less nasty, less hyperbolic, more reasoned, more respectful
Alastair CampbellVerified account @campbellclaret The freedom Britain needs is freedom from a nasty Brexit Lie Machine run by tax dodgers and multi-millionaire liars fuelling anger and hate
This is the thing. The left make a debate nasty, vile and personal and then claim to be angels.
I wish Leavers would come to a consensus about whether the EU is set on an irreversible path towards a federal superstate, or is going to fall apart within 3-4 years under a mass of its own contradictions. And if the latter why they foresee no attempts at reform of the like they would presumably have liked to see in Cameron's deal (for those who claim to genuinely believe they could have been persuaded to vote Remain) to make the whole thing work.
Why should they? The two alternatives are hardly mutually exclusive, and in fact the faster the EU motors towards a federal superstate without bring along the electorates, the more a case can be made that a collapse becomes likely absent any correction of the deficit of democracy.
As for why no attempts have been made at reform, well I guess you've never worked in a bureaucracy.
My point is that there are many Leavers who affect to claim that they would have backed remain if Cameron had got something a bit better than the deal he came back with. If that is true then they must believe such a deal was possible. If it was possible before then it is possible in future. And it must have offered genuine reform across the EU otherwise all the arguments about being tied into a disintegrating organisation would have been just as applicable. It seems to me that whilst the presumed unbelieved threat that the UK might leave was not enough to prompt such reform, it is somewhat strange to think that the imminent disintegration of the whole EU would produce similar inaction.
I wish Leavers would come to a consensus about whether the EU is set on an irreversible path towards a federal superstate, or is going to fall apart within 3-4 years under a mass of its own contradictions. And if the latter why they foresee no attempts at reform of the like they would presumably have liked to see in Cameron's deal (for those who claim to genuinely believe they could have been persuaded to vote Remain) to make the whole thing work.
Why should they? The two alternatives are hardly mutually exclusive, and in fact the faster the EU motors towards a federal superstate without bring along the electorates, the more a case can be made that a collapse becomes likely absent any correction of the deficit of democracy.
As for why no attempts have been made at reform, well I guess you've never worked in a bureaucracy.
My point is that there are many Leavers who affect to claim that they would have backed remain if Cameron had got something a bit better than the deal he came back with. If that is true then they must believe such a deal was possible. If it was possible before then it is possible in future. And it must have offered genuine reform across the EU otherwise all the arguments about being tied into a disintegrating organisation would have been just as applicable. It seems to me that whilst the presumed unbelieved threat that the UK mIight leave was not enough to prompt such reform, it is somewhat strange to think that the imminent disintegration of the whole EU would produce similar inaction.
It is precisely because he got nothing that we now know that nothing will ever be got. Also the mood music of the negotiations was: Be happy with what you have, you will get no more.
That is why I am out. If I thought there was any chance of reform I would be either firm remain or a swing voter.
I'm starting to seethe with anger at the thought that Remain could win.
The lies on Turkey. The lies that no more powers will go to Brussels. The lies over our special protections. The moment ANY more power is handed to Brussels the Conservative Parliamentary Party must block at all costs and attempt to force another referendum. If it brings down the government and tears the Tory Party apart then do it.
If Remain are to win this on promising no more powers to Brussels and then proceed to hand over more powers, then we're entitled to have another referendum. False prospectus.
If my opponents were honest and argued for a federal Europe and closer union and I lost then fair enough. But what makes me so angry is how they'll lie through their teeth to us. My blood boils.
"The lies on Turkey" - as told by the Leave campaign.
Look on the bright side. If Remain win you'll b abe to go to Turkey and find a completely empty country.
Like Romania and Bulgaria are after 29 million people emigrated from there to Eastleigh?
Who said only 13 thousand people would come from the new Eastern European countries ?
Maybe Osborne's "emergency budget" was after all a masterpiece of political campaigning...
I keep on telling people, Osborne is awesome
You are trolling, but if you don't get rid of Osborne after this referendum (speak to your chums in CCHQ) the party is in deep, deep trouble.
I suspect deep down you know this.
Care to elaborate on that?
Yup, we're not in Schengen, we're not in the Eurozone, I suspect we'll take the role of the leader of the non Schengen/Eurozone blocs.
A Remain vote should mean all-in. Join Shengen, join the Euro, take Eurovision seriously.
Better to be balls deep in the EU than the never ending foreplay we've had for 40 years.
I do hope this is irony.
Only the bit about Eurovision.
I'm a Leaver, but if we are going to commit to the EU I would prefer full commitment than continued wingeing from the back of the room.
A third of the EU is not in the Eurozone. Are we going to insist they all join along with us?
Only Denmark and the UK have opt outs from the Eurozone. All the other members are bound by treaty to join eventually.
Technically yes, but Sweden cracked the cheat codes.
I'd imagine they'll join of their own volition eventually, though.
Nope. They have only managed to delay the inevitable. Unless they want to break the TEU and TFEU they will have to join at some point. Or they will be forced out of the EU. Of course the EU will continue to kick this can down the road for some time but when things start to to seriously wrong they will have to force the issue.
Arguably they're breaking the spirit of the treaty but technically their workaround works forever. They're not obliged to join the ERM, and if you don't join the ERM you can't join the Euro. What do you think is going to change so that they do have to join it?
The Eurozone getting into serious trouble (as it will) and needing the more stable and richer countries that are still outside to join. They will not let them sit on the outside forever.
Andrew Neil @afneil Andrew Neil Retweeted Alastair Campbell Good to see Campaign discourse become more civilised, less nasty, less hyperbolic, more reasoned, more respectful
Alastair CampbellVerified account @campbellclaret The freedom Britain needs is freedom from a nasty Brexit Lie Machine run by tax dodgers and multi-millionaire liars fuelling anger and hate
This is the thing. The left make a debate nasty, vile and personal and then claim to be angels.
Love the bit when campbell says 'a nasty brexit lie machine' coming from him ;-)
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
Maybe Osborne's "emergency budget" was after all a masterpiece of political campaigning...
I keep on telling people, Osborne is awesome
You are trolling, but if you don't get rid of Osborne after this referendum (speak to your chums in CCHQ) the party is in deep, deep trouble.
I suspect deep down you know this.
Care to elaborate on that?
Yup, we're not in Schengen, we're not in the Eurozone, I suspect we'll take the role of the leader of the non Schengen/Eurozone blocs.
A Remain vote should mean all-in. Join Shengen, join the Euro, take Eurovision seriously.
Better to be balls deep in the EU than the never ending foreplay we've had for 40 years.
I do hope this is irony.
Only the bit about Eurovision.
I'm a Leaver, but if we are going to commit to the EU I would prefer full commitment than continued wingeing from the back of the room.
A third of the EU is not in the Eurozone. Are we going to insist they all join along with us?
Only Denmark and the UK have opt outs from the Eurozone. All the other members are bound by treaty to join eventually.
Technically yes, but Sweden cracked the cheat codes.
I'd imagine they'll join of their own volition eventually, though.
Nope. They have only managed to delay the inevitable. Unless they want to break the TEU and TFEU they will have to join at some point. Or they will be forced out of the EU. Of course the EU will continue to kick this can down the road for some time but when things start to to seriously wrong they will have to force the issue.
Arguably they're breaking the spirit of the treaty but technically their workaround works forever. They're not obliged to join the ERM, and if you don't join the ERM you can't join the Euro. What do you think is going to change so that they do have to join it?
The Eurozone getting into serious trouble (as it will) and needing the more stable and richer countries that are still outside to join. They will not let them sit on the outside forever.
In theory but in practice Swedish voters are overwhelmingly anti Euro and they may then demand their own EUref
I wish Leavers would come to a consensus about whether the EU is set on an irreversible path towards a federal superstate, or is going to fall apart within 3-4 years under a mass of its own contradictions. And if the latter why they foresee no attempts at reform of the like they would presumably have liked to see in Cameron's deal (for those who claim to genuinely believe they could have been persuaded to vote Remain) to make the whole thing work.
Why should they? The two alternatives are hardly mutually exclusive, and in fact the faster the EU motors towards a federal superstate without bring along the electorates, the more a case can be made that a collapse becomes likely absent any correction of the deficit of democracy.
As for why no attempts have been made at reform, well I guess you've never worked in a bureaucracy.
My point is that there are many Leavers who affect to claim that they would have backed remain if Cameron had got something a bit better than the deal he came back with. If that is true then they must believe such a deal was possible. If it was possible before then it is possible in future. And it must have offered genuine reform across the EU otherwise all the arguments about being tied into a disintegrating organisation would have been just as applicable. It seems to me that whilst the presumed unbelieved threat that the UK mIight leave was not enough to prompt such reform, it is somewhat strange to think that the imminent disintegration of the whole EU would produce similar inaction.
It is precisely because he got nothing that we now know that nothing will ever be got.
So the Brexit case is that there will never be a better leader or better negotiator than Cameron?
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
Well, it isn't exactly what would have been voted for, but there is an argument to be made that it is not good for us or the EU for us to continually be bitching and holding them back, and if we are in we should be all in. Otherwise bitterness will only grow at the heart of the project, us still reluctant, them still irritated with our reluctance.
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
Unless Remain win by 60% or more there is no mandate to join the eurozone or Schengen
I wish Leavers would come to a consensus about whether the EU is set on an irreversible path towards a federal superstate, or is going to fall apart within 3-4 years under a mass of its own contradictions. And if the latter why they foresee no attempts at reform of the like they would presumably have liked to see in Cameron's deal (for those who claim to genuinely believe they could have been persuaded to vote Remain) to make the whole thing work.
Why should they? The two alternatives are hardly mutually exclusive, and in fact the faster the EU motors towards a federal superstate without bring along the electorates, the more a case can be made that a collapse becomes likely absent any correction of the deficit of democracy.
As for why no attempts have been made at reform, well I guess you've never worked in a bureaucracy.
My point is that there are many Leavers who affect to claim that they would have backed remain if Cameron had got something a bit better than the deal he came back with. If that is true then they must believe such a deal was possible. If it was possible before then it is possible in future. And it must have offered genuine reform across the EU otherwise all the arguments about being tied into a disintegrating organisation would have been just as applicable. It seems to me that whilst the presumed unbelieved threat that the UK mIight leave was not enough to prompt such reform, it is somewhat strange to think that the imminent disintegration of the whole EU would produce similar inaction.
It is precisely because he got nothing that we now know that nothing will ever be got.
So the Brexit case is that there will never be a better leader or better negotiator than Cameron?
Cameron had a credible threat that we might Leave.
I'm starting to seethe with anger at the thought that Remain could win.
The lies on Turkey. The lies that no more powers will go to Brussels. The lies over our special protections. The moment ANY more power is handed to Brussels the Conservative Parliamentary Party must block at all costs and attempt to force another referendum. If it brings down the government and tears the Tory Party apart then do it.
If Remain are to win this on promising no more powers to Brussels and then proceed to hand over more powers, then we're entitled to have another referendum. False prospectus.
If my opponents were honest and argued for a federal Europe and closer union and I lost then fair enough. But what makes me so angry is how they'll lie through their teeth to us. My blood boils.
"The lies on Turkey" - as told by the Leave campaign.
Look on the bright side. If Remain win you'll b abe to go to Turkey and find a completely empty country.
Like Romania and Bulgaria are after 29 million people emigrated from there to Eastleigh?
Who said only 13 thousand people would come from the new Eastern European countries ?
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
With the greatest of respect - but what a load of bollocks.
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
Unless Remain win by 60% or more there is no mandate to join the eurozone or Schengen
The Eurozone getting into serious trouble (as it will) and needing the more stable and richer countries that are still outside to join. They will not let them sit on the outside forever.
What do you think they're going to do specifically?
I wish Leavers would come to a consensus about whether the EU is set on an irreversible path towards a federal superstate, or is going to fall apart within 3-4 years under a mass of its own contradictions. And if the latter why they foresee no attempts at reform of the like they would presumably have liked to see in Cameron's deal (for those who claim to genuinely believe they could have been persuaded to vote Remain) to make the whole thing work.
Why should they? The two alternatives are hardly mutually exclusive, and in fact the faster the EU motors towards a federal superstate without bring along the electorates, the more a case can be made that a collapse becomes likely absent any correction of the deficit of democracy.
As for why no attempts have been made at reform, well I guess you've never worked in a bureaucracy.
My point is that there are many Leavers who affect to claim that they would have backed remain if Cameron had got something a bit better than the deal he came back with. If that is true then they must believe such a deal was possible. If it was possible before then it is possible in future. And it must have offered genuine reform across the EU otherwise all the arguments about being tied into a disintegrating organisation would have been just as applicable. It seems to me that whilst the presumed unbelieved threat that the UK mIight leave was not enough to prompt such reform, it is somewhat strange to think that the imminent disintegration of the whole EU would produce similar inaction.
It is precisely because he got nothing that we now know that nothing will ever be got.
So the Brexit case is that there will never be a better leader or better negotiator than Cameron?
Cameron had a credible threat that we might Leave.
If we vote to Remain that won't exist in future.
A good leader would create leverage and be prepared to use it. The threat of leaving isn't necessarily the strongest card to play.
Seems Leavers are now the ones hitting the panic button. Perhaps Osborne and his DIY recession warnings wasn't as mad as some PBers have been making out?
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
Some good points but your last paragraph - like hell,never will I give up my nationhood.
Whether Leave win or loose Cameron will be lauded. He's the most successful leader the Tories have had since Thatcher. Unlike his feeble colleagues he's led from the front and single handedly he's dragged the party into the 21st century. If he loses he'll be even more deified and Boris will be the one who isn't forgiven.
I wish Leavers would come to a consensus about whether the EU is set on an irreversible path towards a federal superstate, or is going to fall apart within 3-4 years under a mass of its own contradictions. And if the latter why they foresee no attempts at reform of the like they would presumably have liked to see in Cameron's deal (for those who claim to genuinely believe they could have been persuaded to vote Remain) to make the whole thing work.
Why should they? The two alternatives are hardly mutually exclusive, and in fact the faster the EU motors towards a federal superstate without bring along the electorates, the more a case can be made that a collapse becomes likely absent any correction of the deficit of democracy.
As for why no attempts have been made at reform, well I guess you've never worked in a bureaucracy.
My point is that there are many Leavers who affect to claim that they would have backed remain if Cameron had got something a bit better than the deal he came back with. If that is true then they must believe such a deal was possible. If it was possible before then it is possible in future. And it must have offered genuine reform across the EU otherwise all the arguments about being tied into a disintegrating organisation would have been just as applicable. It seems to me that whilst the presumed unbelieved threat that the UK might leave was not enough to prompt such reform, it is somewhat strange to think that the imminent disintegration of the whole EU would produce similar inaction.
For myself, I was very swayed by the various speeches Mr Cameron made about what his aims & objectives for the re-negotiations were.
I thought he meant it when he said that if he didn't get what he said he was looking for, he would recommend a Leave vote.
The speeches were excellent but that's all they were - speeches. They served their purpose & were forgotten.
We now know, as fact, that the unbelieved threat that the UK might leave was indeed not enough to prompt reform.
So why would a group so hell-bent on Ever-Closer-Union, for whom the only answer to every problem is More EU, ever consider any other response possible?
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
If ever there was a reason to vote Leave, it was this post.
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
Good first post.
And welcome. I hope you'll stick around until Cameron and Osborne are hounded out of office.
I wish Leavers would come to a consensus about whether the EU is set on an irreversible path towards a federal superstate, or is going to fall apart within 3-4 years under a mass of its own contradictions. And if the latter why they foresee no attempts at reform of the like they would presumably have liked to see in Cameron's deal (for those who claim to genuinely believe they could have been persuaded to vote Remain) to make the whole thing work.
Why should they? The two alternatives are hardly mutually exclusive, and in fact the faster the EU motors towards a federal superstate without bring along the electorates, the more a case can be made that a collapse becomes likely absent any correction of the deficit of democracy.
As for why no attempts have been made at reform, well I guess you've never worked in a bureaucracy.
My point is that there are many Leavers who affect to claim that they would have backed remain if Cameron had got something a bit better than the deal he came back with. If that is true then they must believe such a deal was possible. If it was possible before then it is possible in future. And it must have offered genuine reform across the EU otherwise all the arguments about being tied into a disintegrating organisation would have been just as applicable. It seems to me that whilst the presumed unbelieved threat that the UK mIight leave was not enough to prompt such reform, it is somewhat strange to think that the imminent disintegration of the whole EU would produce similar inaction.
It is precisely because he got nothing that we now know that nothing will ever be got.
So the Brexit case is that there will never be a better leader or better negotiator than Cameron?
No. It is the Brexit case that they will not listen. They didn't listen when we told them the Euro would be a disaster for Europe particularly the southern countries. They just said we were being bad Europeans and we took our opt out. That is the point. We've had these conversations down the years, not just Cameron. He was the last chance and frankly buggered it up. It would have been better if he hadn't bothered and left the negotiations to someone with some balls who would have said, "OK, I have not got what I need, so I will put it to a referendum and campaign for out". Then he may have got something, He didn't.
You do know that by putting words into peoples mouths (or in this case assuming they believe something they have not said they believe) to make yourself look clever doesn't.
Whether Leave win or loose Cameron will be lauded. He's the most successful leader the Tories have had since Thatcher. Unlike his feeble colleagues he's led from the front and single handedly he's dragged the party into the 21st century. If he loses he'll be even more deified and Boris will be the one who isn't forgiven.
Whether leave or remain, Cameron is on the backbenches .
Applause from Rogerdamus is almost reasonenough. The fact that his campaign has betrayed most Conservativr activists is actually going to be his demise. MPs know which side their bread is buttered - loyalty to a Lib Dem leadership is not going to help them win the next general.
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
With the greatest of respect - but what a load of bollocks.
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
Unless Remain win by 60% or more there is no mandate to join the eurozone or Schengen
If Remain won by 90/10 there would be no mandate to join either.
We're voting Remain with Cameron's renegotiation orLeave - remember?
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
Unless Remain win by 60% or more there is no mandate to join the eurozone or Schengen
That's not how it will be seen in Brussels.
Brussels can think what it wants, EU ref is just the start of rising populism across the continent and the more it tries to push the UK to integrate further the more UKIP will rise in the polls in response
No. It is the Brexit case that they will not listen. They didn't listen when we told them the Euro would be a disaster for Europe particularly the southern countries. They just said we were being bad Europeans and we took our opt out. That is the point. We've had these conversations down the years, not just Cameron. He was the last chance and frankly buggered it up. It would have been better if he hadn't bothered and left the negotiations to someone with some balls who would have said, "OK, I have not got what I need, so I will put it to a referendum and campaign for out". Then he may have got something, He didn't.
You do know that by putting words into peoples mouths (or in this case assuming they believe something they have not said they believe) to make yourself look clever doesn't.
Who is this 'we' you keep referring to? At the time the Euro got down to the business end of discussions, the British Prime Minister was telling everyone what a good idea it was and laying the ground for us to join. You're conflating a partisan position with the position of the British government, and conflating a partisan interest with the British interest.
Unless Remain win by 60% or more there is no mandate to join the eurozone or Schengen
That's not how it will be seen in Brussels.
Brussels can think what it wants, EU ref is just the start of rising populism across the contibent and the more it tries to push the UK to integrate further the more UKIP will rise in the polls in response
I am considerably more worried about the rise of the loons across Europe than the rise of UKIP here.
There are some genuinely unpleasant forces at play because the EU doesn't listen.
Brussels can think what it wants, EU ref is just the start of rising populism across the contibent and the more it tries to push the UK to integrate further the more UKIP will rise in the polls in response
UKIP will achieve fuck all with FPTP. They are an incompetent party infested with pub bores. I wish there was a centrist Eurosceptic party. Sadly I think it may be spoiled ballots from me for the foreseeable future.
Whether Leave win or loose Cameron will be lauded. He's the most successful leader the Tories have had since Thatcher. Unlike his feeble colleagues he's led from the front and single handedly he's dragged the party into the 21st century. If he loses he'll be even more deified and Boris will be the one who isn't forgiven.
Whether leave or remain, Cameron is on the backbenches .
Applause from Rogerdamus is almost reasonenough. The fact that his campaign has betrayed most Conservativr activists is actually going to be his demise. MPs know which side their bread is buttered - loyalty to a Lib Dem leadership is not going to help them win the next general.
The idea the Tory leadership is really LD is one of the more consistently hilarious positions of the past year. I too think he's going to be gone even in the event of a Remain win because, though MPs backed him, activists do not, but that extreme is still very amusing.
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
Unless Remain win by 60% or more there is no mandate to join the eurozone or Schengen
If Remain won by 90/10 there would be no mandate to join either.
We're voting Remain with Cameron's renegotiation orLeave - remember?
No. It is the Brexit case that they will not listen. They didn't listen when we told them the Euro would be a disaster for Europe particularly the southern countries. They just said we were being bad Europeans and we took our opt out. That is the point. We've had these conversations down the years, not just Cameron. He was the last chance and frankly buggered it up. It would have been better if he hadn't bothered and left the negotiations to someone with some balls who would have said, "OK, I have not got what I need, so I will put it to a referendum and campaign for out". Then he may have got something, He didn't.
You do know that by putting words into peoples mouths (or in this case assuming they believe something they have not said they believe) to make yourself look clever doesn't.
Who is this 'we' you keep referring to? At the time the Euro got down to the business end of discussions, the British Prime Minister was telling everyone what a good idea it was and laying the ground for us to join. You're conflating a partisan position with the position of the British government, and conflating a partisan interest with the British interest.
The "We" I refer to is the government of the United Kingdon.
No the discussion with regard to setting up the Euro started under Thatcher, then Major then Blair.
The former pointed out it would be a disaster, the middle got the opt out and whilst the later was all for it at least someone had some common sense in his government.
It has never been in our actual interests to join the Euro and it has never been practical for it to come into existence.
I've read PB almost every day since 2008. Technically, this is my second ever post because my first one was under (was it Disqus?) an old board back in 2009 when I passed some comment re: Angela Eagle as she was my MP at the time.
Strange I felt that I wanted to comment on this. But it's the most important vote in the history of the United Kingdom. I am inclined to agree with other posters however. This is the last time we'll get asked about this. By 2057 we'll either be completely out (and the EU long gone) or so fully integrated it would be like asking Maine if they wanted to leave the United States..... Plus I'll probably be dead.
Unless Remain win by 60% or more there is no mandate to join the eurozone or Schengen
That's not how it will be seen in Brussels.
Brussels can think what it wants, EU ref is just the start of rising populism across the contibent and the more it tries to push the UK to integrate further the more UKIP will rise in the polls in response
I am considerably more worried about the rise of the loons across Europe than the rise of UKIP here.
There are some genuinely unpleasant forces at play because the EU doesn't listen.
Starting with Marine Le Pen and Geert Wilders next year
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
Unless Remain win by 60% or more there is no mandate to join the eurozone or Schengen
If Remain won by 90/10 there would be no mandate to join either.
We're voting Remain with Cameron's renegotiation orLeave - remember?
On that the voters will hold him
The voters either don't know what his renegotiation is or understand that it's a pile of nothing.
Unless Remain win by 60% or more there is no mandate to join the eurozone or Schengen
That's not how it will be seen in Brussels.
Brussels can think what it wants, EU ref is just the start of rising populism across the contibent and the more it tries to push the UK to integrate further the more UKIP will rise in the polls in response
I am considerably more worried about the rise of the loons across Europe than the rise of UKIP here.
There are some genuinely unpleasant forces at play because the EU doesn't listen.
Starting with Marine Le Pen and Geert Wilders next year
Exactly. The EUs response? La la la la la I'm not listening...You're just bad Europeans....
Brussels can think what it wants, EU ref is just the start of rising populism across the contibent and the more it tries to push the UK to integrate further the more UKIP will rise in the polls in response
UKIP will achieve fuck all with FPTP. They are an incompetent party infested with pub bores. I wish there was a centrist Eurosceptic party. Sadly I think it may be spoiled ballots from me for the foreseeable future.
They are already on 19% in the latest poll ie. what the LDs got in 2001
I've read PB almost every day since 2008. Technically, this is my second ever post because my first one was under (was it Disqus?) an old board back in 2009 when I passed some comment re: Angela Eagle as she was my MP at the time.
Strange I felt that I wanted to comment on this. But it's the most important vote in the history of the United Kingdom. I am inclined to agree with other posters however. This is the last time we'll get asked about this. By 2057 we'll either be completely out (and the EU long gone) or so fully integrated it would be like asking Maine if they wanted to leave the United States..... Plus I'll probably be dead.
Welcome aboard. I don't think that's quite right though. We already have legislation that says any further transfer of power to EU is subject to another referendum. So you may well be voting again.
I've read PB almost every day since 2008. Technically, this is my second ever post because my first one was under (was it Disqus?) an old board back in 2009 when I passed some comment re: Angela Eagle as she was my MP at the time.
Strange I felt that I wanted to comment on this. But it's the most important vote in the history of the United Kingdom. I am inclined to agree with other posters however. This is the last time we'll get asked about this. By 2057 we'll either be completely out (and the EU long gone) or so fully integrated it would be like asking Maine if they wanted to leave the United States..... Plus I'll probably be dead.
Welcome aboard. I don't think that's quite right though. We already have legislation that says any further transfer of power to EU is subject to another referendum. So you may well be voting again.
Apart from the fact that the chattering classes seem to now not like referendums...
Just five days away from the most important vote in the history of this country and it looks pretty clear REMAIN are now going to win (I never really doubted it in my mind but this last week was fun before the polls inevitably turned again).
... REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
Unless Remain win by 60% or more there is no mandate to join the eurozone or Schengen
If Remain won by 90/10 there would be no mandate to join either.
We're voting Remain with Cameron's renegotiation orLeave - remember?
On that the voters will hold him
The voters either don't know what his renegotiation is or understand that it's a pile of nothing.
So they'll accept sweet nothing? What a load of tosh.
Unless Remain win by 60% or more there is no mandate to join the eurozone or Schengen
That's not how it will be seen in Brussels.
Brussels can think what it wants, EU ref is just the start of rising populism across the contibent and the more it tries to push the UK to integrate further the more UKIP will rise in the polls in response
I am considerably more worried about the rise of the loons across Europe than the rise of UKIP here.
There are some genuinely unpleasant forces at play because the EU doesn't listen.
Starting with Marine Le Pen and Geert Wilders next year
Exactly. The EUs response? La la la la la I'm not listening...You're just bad Europeans....
I'm really shocked by the effects one poll has had on confidence here.
Leave are going to walk the vote on Thursday.
Still yet to meet anyone over 35 who will vote Remain...
2 polls and you obviously have not been to London or Scotland recently
London is running heavily Remain. After all this is said and done the legacy will be pro-business lefties in town finally understanding the worldview of pro-business liberal Tories. I hope we win, and can work together.
I'm really shocked by the effects one poll has had on confidence here.
Leave are going to walk the vote on Thursday.
Still yet to meet anyone over 35 who will vote Remain...
2 polls and you obviously have not been to London or Scotland recently
London is running heavily Remain. After all this is said and done the legacy will be pro-business lefties in town finally understanding the worldview of pro-business liberal Tories. I hope we win, and can work together.
Tory party will be Eurosceptic and in government in 2020.
I'm really shocked by the effects one poll has had on confidence here.
Leave are going to walk the vote on Thursday.
Still yet to meet anyone over 35 who will vote Remain...
2 polls and you obviously have not been to London or Scotland recently
London is running heavily Remain. After all this is said and done the legacy will be pro-business lefties in town finally understanding the worldview of pro-business liberal Tories. I hope we win, and can work together.
Tory party will be Eurosceptic and in government in 2020.
I'm really shocked by the effects one poll has had on confidence here.
Leave are going to walk the vote on Thursday.
Still yet to meet anyone over 35 who will vote Remain...
2 polls and you obviously have not been to London or Scotland recently
London is running heavily Remain. After all this is said and done the legacy will be pro-business lefties in town finally understanding the worldview of pro-business liberal Tories. I hope we win, and can work together.
Tory party will be Eurosceptic and in government in 2020.
It's possible to be Eurosceptic and not pro-Leave, or pro-Leave now but regard a Remain victory in the referendum as closing the issue.
Fighting the good fight to overturn the result of a referendum is more the mindset of a revolutionary than a small-c conservative.
Comments
As for why no attempts have been made at reform, well I guess you've never worked in a bureaucracy.
I would have liked the EU to actually consider free movement, it didn't.
I would like the EU to have removed itself from a number of areas. Tax law being one which would have been handy as it would help our deficit no end. There are others also.
Mine's a falafel and a kibbe
1. It is likely to happen (in the case of special passport holders)
2. It isn't unreasonable.
But that isn't what happens. Rather than make a reasonable sensible case for 1.5 million Turks to be able to visit the UK they just lie. That corrodes trust. It's nuts.
We are talking about Turkey, the 15th biggest economy in the world.
Remain were certainly planning to end their campaign on Farage. It was only derailed by Jo Cox's murder.
Andrew Neil Retweeted Alastair Campbell
Good to see Campaign discourse become more civilised, less nasty, less hyperbolic, more reasoned, more respectful
Alastair CampbellVerified account
@campbellclaret
The freedom Britain needs is freedom from a nasty Brexit Lie Machine run by tax dodgers and multi-millionaire liars fuelling anger and hate
(Anybody heard anything from HD2, lately?)
Boom boom tish! (Or possibly not... I'll get my coat)
Not in a great place right now.
That is why I am out. If I thought there was any chance of reform I would be either firm remain or a swing voter.
https://twitter.com/NeilMackay/status/744304516837826560
I too was excited by the polls showing LEAVE moving ahead but knew it was too soon. REMAIN would fight back with.... well... any old rubbish they could and I'm sure people would listen. I don't think the British public really want to LEAVE. Or rather, they are a bit too scared to LEAVE. My wife and I have 'discussed' the matter for many weeks. She's a firm REMAINer, but eventually confessed the only reason she was voting REMAIN was she was scared. Cling to Nurse.
As to those REMAINers who think that after a REMAIN vote, that there will be no further integration, no continuing move to a European superstate they really are deluded. The Status Quo is not on the ballot paper on Thursday. If the most Euro-sceptic member turns around on Friday morning and returns a REMAIN victory then there will be no stopping the EU then. A little bit of punishment for the UK immediately after just to make sure no one else tries it (maybe our rebate will be reduced) and then full steam ahead for further integration. People are saying that LEAVE will ‘own’ their result if LEAVE was to win. The same applies in spades to REMAIN.
35% of the voters are staunch LEAVErs. Would walk over coal to get to the polls and vote LEAVE. 15% of the same REMAINers. The other 50% will break almost all for REMAIN. Better the devil I know. Cling to nurse. It’s scary outside.
I’m a Lib Dem member. Joined after our defeat in 2015. But I can’t stand my party somehow thinking an undemocratic, highly bureaucratic superstate is the place to be. A clue is in the party name. Liberal DEMOCRATS. Have we completely lost the plot?
As for Cameron and Osbourne. Unless it is 65%+ REMAIN, both are finished. The Conservatives will never forgive the little so an d sos for what they have done. No one likes them. Certainly not round here…. But I am in Bootle.
After the REMAIN victory on Friday morning, we should join the Euro and Schengen. We should stop carping on the sidelines and fully integrate. Sound scary? Sound scarier? It’s what we’ve just voted for. Let’s crack on and join in properly.
If we vote to Remain that won't exist in future.
"Scots MSPs"?
Seems Leavers are now the ones hitting the panic button. Perhaps Osborne and his DIY recession warnings wasn't as mad as some PBers have been making out?
I'm still betting on Leave however. Plenty of postal votes have already been sent in.
I thought he meant it when he said that if he didn't get what he said he was looking for, he would recommend a Leave vote.
The speeches were excellent but that's all they were - speeches. They served their purpose & were forgotten.
We now know, as fact, that the unbelieved threat that the UK might leave was indeed not enough to prompt reform.
So why would a group so hell-bent on Ever-Closer-Union, for whom the only answer to every problem is More EU, ever consider any other response possible?
And welcome. I hope you'll stick around until Cameron and Osborne are hounded out of office.
You do know that by putting words into peoples mouths (or in this case assuming they believe something they have not said they believe) to make yourself look clever doesn't.
No doubt where they want you to place your cross.
Applause from Rogerdamus is almost reasonenough. The fact that his campaign has betrayed most Conservativr activists is actually going to be his demise. MPs know which side their bread is buttered - loyalty to a Lib Dem leadership is not going to help them win the next general.
BBC Wembley Debate Tuesday 8pm
Leave: @BorisJohnson @andrealeadsom @GiselaStuart
Remain: @RuthDavidsonMSP @SadiqKhan @FrancesOGrady
13 retweets 12 likes
We're voting Remain with Cameron's renegotiation orLeave - remember?
There are some genuinely unpleasant forces at play because the EU doesn't listen.
Leave are going to walk the vote on Thursday.
Still yet to meet anyone over 35 who will vote Remain...
At 10pm on June 23rd, what do you reckon the total matched figure will be on the main Betfair Brexit market?
It's £37m now, reckon it could hit £50m?
Still a long way to go to close this down.
Good luck and best wishes to all who are campaigning to keep us in the European Union.
No the discussion with regard to setting up the Euro started under Thatcher, then Major then Blair.
The former pointed out it would be a disaster, the middle got the opt out and whilst the later was all for it at least someone had some common sense in his government.
It has never been in our actual interests to join the Euro and it has never been practical for it to come into existence.
Strange I felt that I wanted to comment on this. But it's the most important vote in the history of the United Kingdom. I am inclined to agree with other posters however. This is the last time we'll get asked about this. By 2057 we'll either be completely out (and the EU long gone) or so fully integrated it would be like asking Maine if they wanted to leave the United States..... Plus I'll probably be dead.
Good night.
More importantly, I talk to people who don't think Andy Burnham would be best placed to lead anything...
Batley & Spen will be a contested by-election, it seems. 'Liberty GB' have announced a candidate.
Fighting the good fight to overturn the result of a referendum is more the mindset of a revolutionary than a small-c conservative.