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  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,451

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    Yup, Leavers know they have lost

    They hate Cameron more than the EU. He's a winner, and they don't like that.
    What a tedious line this is. The Tory party is ruthless when winning is on the line.

    With our current leadership and its hapless approach to public policy, winning won't be a likelihood next time.
    As Cameron won't be leader anyway, by his own announcement, you don't need to worry on that score.
    Yeah but Osborne's got to be taken out.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    Yup, Leavers know they have lost

    They hate Cameron more than the EU. He's a winner, and they don't like that.
    What a tedious line this is. The Tory party is ruthless when winning is on the line.

    With our current leadership and its hapless approach to public policy, winning won't be a likelihood next time.
    As Cameron won't be leader anyway, by his own announcement, you don't need to worry on that score.
    It is the one who had to be schooled in politics and policy by IDS that worries me. Time for him to go to the backbenches - sooner rather than later.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Hope it's true.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    edited May 2016
    If Remain do win this by the scale the phone polls suggests, then Boris loses his star quality.

    Keep on laying Boris
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,451
    Have spent the evening reading the excellent Blog post from @Casino_Royale

    https://royaleleseaux.wordpress.com/2016/05/22/eu-referendum-the-choice/

    Highly recommended.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    This Hannan piece on Newsnight is fantastic.
  • My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    Mortimer said:

    This Hannan piece on Newsnight is fantastic.

    Unfortunately Dan Hannan has been ruined for me now.

    You never see Dan Hannan and the bloke from the MoneySuperMarket advert in the same room do you?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:



    I remember that Ceausescu speech... Then they started laughing....And then you knew it was over.
    Makes me feel old reading this.
    That speech happened on my 19th birthday.

    I was 11 when that happened, you old git
    Yes, and nature hadn't forced me to follow OGH on the hair style front then either.
    Things is different these days.
    Today I officially felt old today, I had to explain who MacGyver was to one of my staff today. They had never heard of MacGyver before, They are 18, it dawned on me they were born after Labour's victory in 1997.
    And they're like 'yeah, yeah'
    That sort of thing only gets worse.


    I went for a medical before Christmas. The nurse asked my date of birth and noted that I'd just had my birthday, had I done anything nice? Well actually, I said, I'd been due to see New Order but hadn't been able to go.

    "Who are New Order?"

    "You will have heard their biggest track Blue Monday, even if you don't recognise the name of the track, it's played eveywhere. It was the biggest selling 12" ever."

    "What's a 12"?"

    At that point I quit when I was behind.
    New Order are headlining at Latitude Festival in July, so still time to catch them. I saw them at Glastonbury in 1987. Latitude is pretty chilled, lots of Guardian readers.

    .
    Would it be suitable to take my 8 and 6 year old children?

    The National are playing, and they are AWESOME
    The family camping has decent loos, and even showers. It is close to the Festival site and quite civilised. Fox jr started festivalling at that age and loves it, though returning to the tent to chill and change at that age is a good idea.

    In front of the main stage there are plenty of families spread about on blankets.

    There is a Spotify playlist of this years bands:

    https://open.spotify.com/user/latitudefest/playlist/52nIJzRFupzjQBTxKx8fVc
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:

    This Hannan piece on Newsnight is fantastic.

    Unfortunately Dan Hannan has been ruined for me now.

    You never see Dan Hannan and the bloke from the MoneySuperMarket advert in the same room do you?
    Watch the piece of you can. It is tremendous and should be the electoral broadcast for the last fortnight.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    I sincerely hope you are joking.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    GIN1138 said:

    Have spent the evening reading the excellent Blog post from @Casino_Royale

    https://royaleleseaux.wordpress.com/2016/05/22/eu-referendum-the-choice/

    Highly recommended.

    I've passed that on to friends.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433

    Hope it's true.
    It'll be another election he wins.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,451

    If Remain do win this by the scale the phone polls suggests, then Boris loses his star quality.

    For time short term yes, but who knows how the ground will lay in 2-3 years...
  • AnnaAnna Posts: 59
    On the ORB survey in the Telegraph - they can only have a sample of 300 Conservatives if the total sample is 800. Isn't that a 7% margin of error?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    This Hannan piece on Newsnight is fantastic.

    Unfortunately Dan Hannan has been ruined for me now.

    You never see Dan Hannan and the bloke from the MoneySuperMarket advert in the same room do you?
    Watch the piece of you can. It is tremendous and should be the electoral broadcast for the last fortnight.
    I'll have to watch it on the iplayer in the morning.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    So 'Cambridge based Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang who for many was the star of the day' told lefties what they wanted to hear.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Why does Ummna peddle the tarrifs on goods line?

    No tarrifs on goods from Iceland to Albania.....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    GIN1138 said:

    If Remain do win this by the scale the phone polls suggests, then Boris loses his star quality.

    For time short term yes, but who knows how the ground will lay in 2-3 years...
    Boris will have to be the best Northern Ireland Secretary in history for that to happen.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414

    Mortimer said:

    This Hannan piece on Newsnight is fantastic.

    Unfortunately Dan Hannan has been ruined for me now.

    You never see Dan Hannan and the bloke from the MoneySuperMarket advert in the same room do you?
    Actually his name is Michael van Shoick, from LA of all places:

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/6375342/MoneySuperMarket-advert-dancer-teaches-Sun-man-how-to-strut.html
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Hope it's true.
    It'll be another election he wins.
    Tory splits my friend,
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
  • VapidBilgeVapidBilge Posts: 412
    On topic and off topic.
    Don Brind said:

    The large and enthusiastic gathering heard Corbyn’s signature line “austerity is a political choice not a necessity” endorsed by the Cambridge based Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang who for many was the star of the day. He said “No sensible economist agrees with the way the Conservatives are handling the economy at the moment, so I hope this conference will play a major part in developing Labour’s alternative plans for a more dynamic, fairer, and more sustainable economy”.

    So, no "sensible" economist agrees with Osborne, but "serious" economists do?

    You pays your money and takes your choice.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414
    Scott_P said:

    Yup, Leavers know they have lost

    They hate Cameron more than the EU. He's a winner, and they don't like that.
    Cameron hates the Tory Party more than the EU :)
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    I don't know if you are being serious but if you are the way you speak about your mother is repellant.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,451

    GIN1138 said:

    If Remain do win this by the scale the phone polls suggests, then Boris loses his star quality.

    For time short term yes, but who knows how the ground will lay in 2-3 years...
    Boris will have to be the best Northern Ireland Secretary in history for that to happen.
    I would have thought Boris will go to the backbenches and wait and see how the EU gets on over the next 2-3 years.

    Essentially you europhiles are putting all your eggs into one basket - That the collection of losers and odd balls that run the EU like Mr Juncker are actually going to make a success of the EU and the Euro. That the whole thing won't implode and take us over the precipice with it...

    Maybe you will be right... But maybe you won't. If you aren't then Boris's star will rise when he is able to say "I told you so"

    We shall see.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    I'm not somehow missing a joke here am I? Denying someone the vote like that is utterly heinous.
  • VapidBilgeVapidBilge Posts: 412

    So 'Cambridge based Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang who for many was the star of the day' told lefties what they wanted to hear.

    Welcome to the economist sceptics club, Mr. Nabavi!
  • AnnaAnna Posts: 59
    Deutsche Bank was downgraded by Moody's today... Do we think the referendum markets factoring in the possibility of a euro crisis beyond Greek debt travails?
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/moodys-downgrades-deutsche-banks-debt-two-notches-above-junk
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    RobD said:

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    I'm not somehow missing a joke here am I? Denying someone the vote like that is utterly heinous.
    "Her calculating mind"...
  • My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    How many years of care have you given your parents?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    I'm not somehow missing a joke here am I? Denying someone the vote like that is utterly heinous.
    "Her calculating mind"...
    Think I might just vote Remain for his mother's sake!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    How many years of care have you given your parents?
    Somehow that gives you the right to decide if she votes or not?
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Anna said:

    Deutsche Bank was downgraded by Moody's today... Do we think the referendum markets factoring in the possibility of a euro crisis beyond Greek debt travails?
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/moodys-downgrades-deutsche-banks-debt-two-notches-above-junk

    In this referendum vote, people are not factoring the falling off the cliff of the Euro zone.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,451
    Anna said:

    Deutsche Bank was downgraded by Moody's today... Do we think the referendum markets factoring in the possibility of a euro crisis beyond Greek debt travails?
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/moodys-downgrades-deutsche-banks-debt-two-notches-above-junk

    I'm convinced at some point the Eurozone will effectively go bust...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    I'm not somehow missing a joke here am I? Denying someone the vote like that is utterly heinous.
    "Her calculating mind"...
    Think I might just vote Remain for his mother's sake!
    I'm quite happy to be your proxy
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    I'm not somehow missing a joke here am I? Denying someone the vote like that is utterly heinous.
    "Her calculating mind"...
    Think I might just vote Remain for his mother's sake!
    I'm quite happy to be your proxy
    Not to worry, I've already arranged a postal ballot! I am genuinely undecided though (try and suppress those guffaws chaps)...
  • GIN1138 said:

    If Remain do win this by the scale the phone polls suggests, then Boris loses his star quality.

    For time short term yes, but who knows how the ground will lay in 2-3 years...
    Boris will have to be the best Northern Ireland Secretary in history for that to happen.
    Boris would have to be mad to accept the NI role. Much better to sit on the back benches and bang out the odd piece in the Telegraph. (assuming Remain win of course)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I think that we have now reached that point in Post Modern Politics where people are taking the mickey out of people taking the mickey out of scare stories.

    This link was posted by a Corbynista/Green friend of mine on Facebook:

    http://southendnewsnetwork.com/news/eu-remain-campaigner-says-85-of-uk-population-will-die-if-we-vote-for-brexit/

    For all the fun, it has established the meme of Exit equals danger. Many voters will read no further.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Pulpstar said:
    They won't because they know that the reverse is also the case and also that Saudi will be cheering Israel on when they do.

    Also Iran will be killing loads of Palestinians whereas Israel will not be.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited May 2016

    So 'Cambridge based Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang who for many was the star of the day' told lefties what they wanted to hear.

    Welcome to the economist sceptics club, Mr. Nabavi!
    There are economists and economists...

    Of course they are all wrong. However, the problem is you can't assume they are all wrong in the direction you want. It might be worse than they think.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    GIN1138 said:

    Anna said:

    Deutsche Bank was downgraded by Moody's today... Do we think the referendum markets factoring in the possibility of a euro crisis beyond Greek debt travails?
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/moodys-downgrades-deutsche-banks-debt-two-notches-above-junk

    I'm convinced at some point the Eurozone will effectively go bust...
    Just over 20% of the world's money is held in € !
  • My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    I hope that this isn't a serious comment.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    edited May 2016

    Anna said:

    Deutsche Bank was downgraded by Moody's today... Do we think the referendum markets factoring in the possibility of a euro crisis beyond Greek debt travails?
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/moodys-downgrades-deutsche-banks-debt-two-notches-above-junk

    In this referendum vote, people are not factoring the falling off the cliff of the Euro zone.
    You are absolutely right. The issue doesn't get a mention despite being the defining issue. All we hear is superficial drivel instead.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    I'm not somehow missing a joke here am I? Denying someone the vote like that is utterly heinous.
    "Her calculating mind"...
    Think I might just vote Remain for his mother's sake!
    I'm quite happy to be your proxy
    Not to worry, I've already arranged a postal ballot! I am genuinely undecided though (try and suppress those guffaws chaps)...
    A PB first, we have a floating/undecided voter on PB
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171
    It'd be hilarious if they opened one onto the SNP, especially after Wishart calling the Met on the Tories :D
  • My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    I hope that this isn't a serious comment.
    What, you expect me to drive 235 miles on 23 June and take her to the Polling Station?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433

    GIN1138 said:

    If Remain do win this by the scale the phone polls suggests, then Boris loses his star quality.

    For time short term yes, but who knows how the ground will lay in 2-3 years...
    Boris will have to be the best Northern Ireland Secretary in history for that to happen.
    Boris would have to be mad to accept the NI role. Much better to sit on the back benches and bang out the odd piece in the Telegraph. (assuming Remain win of course)
    If Remain wins, he's reportedly getting either, Health, Education or BIS
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414
    edited May 2016

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    I'm not somehow missing a joke here am I? Denying someone the vote like that is utterly heinous.
    "Her calculating mind"...
    Think I might just vote Remain for his mother's sake!
    I'm quite happy to be your proxy
    Not to worry, I've already arranged a postal ballot! I am genuinely undecided though (try and suppress those guffaws chaps)...
    A PB first, we have a floating/undecided voter on PB
    I'm a floating voter, I have voted UKIP, LibDem, Labour and Tory within the last 8 years.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    Yup, Leavers know they have lost

    They hate Cameron more than the EU. He's a winner, and they don't like that.
    What a tedious line this is. The Tory party is ruthless when winning is on the line.

    With our current leadership and its hapless approach to public policy, winning won't be a likelihood next time.
    As Cameron won't be leader anyway, by his own announcement, you don't need to worry on that score.
    Yeah but Osborne's got to be taken out.
    Osborne will fall with Cameron, he is in the Martin Bormann role.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    I hope that this isn't a serious comment.
    What, you expect me to drive 235 miles on 23 June and take her to the Polling Station?
    The least you could do is make sure she's aware of who to get in touch with if she does want to exercise her right to vote. I'd be surprised if the council didn't offer a scheme to assist older voters. If not, either campaign should know how to help or who to contact in situations like these.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433

    GIN1138 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    Yup, Leavers know they have lost

    They hate Cameron more than the EU. He's a winner, and they don't like that.
    What a tedious line this is. The Tory party is ruthless when winning is on the line.

    With our current leadership and its hapless approach to public policy, winning won't be a likelihood next time.
    As Cameron won't be leader anyway, by his own announcement, you don't need to worry on that score.
    Yeah but Osborne's got to be taken out.
    Osborne will fall with Cameron, he is in the Martin Bormann role.
    Just imagine the Downfall video.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    Slightly confused about this ORB poll. If, as they say, Men and older voters are moving towards Remain then who is moving the other way to have produced a closure in the gap by 2 points?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    If Remain wins, he's reportedly getting either, Health, Education or BIS

    Surely Cammo will need to find Boris somewhere where he can't do much harm. BIS or the Welsh Office are the two obvious ones.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    I've found one of the Tory MP's out to get Fake Dave ,bet you didn'r expect him ;-)

    https://twitter.com/Stewart4Pboro/status/734865293487542272
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,674
    Guido's not that great at investigations though. They had an investigation into racism in political parties a while back, but couldn't find a single Tory to report on...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    I'm not somehow missing a joke here am I? Denying someone the vote like that is utterly heinous.
    "Her calculating mind"...
    Think I might just vote Remain for his mother's sake!
    I'm quite happy to be your proxy
    Not to worry, I've already arranged a postal ballot! I am genuinely undecided though (try and suppress those guffaws chaps)...
    A PB first, we have a floating/undecided voter on PB
    There are lots of floating voters here. We cater to both factions: Leave.EU and vote.leave.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433

    Slightly confused about this ORB poll. If, as they say, Men and older voters are moving towards Remain then who is moving the other way to have produced a closure in the gap by 2 points?

    It's the certainty to vote filter.

    Remain is seeing a swing to them among all voters.

    Leave is seeing a swing among 10/10 voters
  • AnnaAnna Posts: 59
    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Anna said:

    Deutsche Bank was downgraded by Moody's today... Do we think the referendum markets factoring in the possibility of a euro crisis beyond Greek debt travails?
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/moodys-downgrades-deutsche-banks-debt-two-notches-above-junk

    I'm convinced at some point the Eurozone will effectively go bust...
    Just over 20% of the world's money is held in € !
    Who knows the remaining 80% might shortly see its purchasing power increase by 1/4 then...
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,003

    GIN1138 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    Yup, Leavers know they have lost

    They hate Cameron more than the EU. He's a winner, and they don't like that.
    What a tedious line this is. The Tory party is ruthless when winning is on the line.

    With our current leadership and its hapless approach to public policy, winning won't be a likelihood next time.
    As Cameron won't be leader anyway, by his own announcement, you don't need to worry on that score.
    Yeah but Osborne's got to be taken out.
    Osborne will fall with Cameron, he is in the Martin Bormann role.
    That's like a wonky bookshelf: a poor parallel on a number of levels.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414

    GIN1138 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    Yup, Leavers know they have lost

    They hate Cameron more than the EU. He's a winner, and they don't like that.
    What a tedious line this is. The Tory party is ruthless when winning is on the line.

    With our current leadership and its hapless approach to public policy, winning won't be a likelihood next time.
    As Cameron won't be leader anyway, by his own announcement, you don't need to worry on that score.
    Yeah but Osborne's got to be taken out.
    Osborne will fall with Cameron, he is in the Martin Bormann role.
    Just imagine the Downfall video.
    "Those who vote LEAVE please leave the room..."
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433

    If Remain wins, he's reportedly getting either, Health, Education or BIS

    Surely Cammo will need to find Boris somewhere where he can't do much harm. BIS or the Welsh Office are the two obvious ones.
    BIS I reckon, has a lot of foreign trips to keep Boris out of the country, and Sajid Javid has been a bit of a let down.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    GIN1138 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    Yup, Leavers know they have lost

    They hate Cameron more than the EU. He's a winner, and they don't like that.
    What a tedious line this is. The Tory party is ruthless when winning is on the line.

    With our current leadership and its hapless approach to public policy, winning won't be a likelihood next time.
    As Cameron won't be leader anyway, by his own announcement, you don't need to worry on that score.
    Yeah but Osborne's got to be taken out.
    Osborne will fall with Cameron, he is in the Martin Bormann role.
    Just imagine the Downfall video.
    Wouldn't you just want to see the downfall video if Leave wins? ;)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171
    EPG said:

    Guido's not that great at investigations though. They had an investigation into racism in political parties a while back, but couldn't find a single Tory to report on...
    Crick's already taken care of that side of things :p
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,003

    GIN1138 said:

    If Remain do win this by the scale the phone polls suggests, then Boris loses his star quality.

    For time short term yes, but who knows how the ground will lay in 2-3 years...
    Boris will have to be the best Northern Ireland Secretary in history for that to happen.
    Boris would have to be mad to accept the NI role. Much better to sit on the back benches and bang out the odd piece in the Telegraph. (assuming Remain win of course)
    If Remain wins, he's reportedly getting either, Health, Education or BIS
    Reportedly according to who?

    At the moment, I suspect that there's a maximum of one person who knows, and quite possibly not even that many.

    Given his attention to detail, I suspect that Health or Education would not be a good fit - though where would be? DCLG?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Anna said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Anna said:

    Deutsche Bank was downgraded by Moody's today... Do we think the referendum markets factoring in the possibility of a euro crisis beyond Greek debt travails?
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/moodys-downgrades-deutsche-banks-debt-two-notches-above-junk

    I'm convinced at some point the Eurozone will effectively go bust...
    Just over 20% of the world's money is held in € !
    Who knows the remaining 80% might shortly see its purchasing power increase by 1/4 then...
    Reports of the death of the Euro appear every few months, yet it goes on and on. Perhaps the economists predicting its downfall are no better than the rest of them!
  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    edited May 2016

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    I hope that this isn't a serious comment.
    What, you expect me to drive 235 miles on 23 June and take her to the Polling Station?
    Then there's still time to arrange a postal vote.
    I want leave to win as much as anyone, but seriously take a look at yourself if your original comment was accurate,
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Anna said:

    Deutsche Bank was downgraded by Moody's today... Do we think the referendum markets factoring in the possibility of a euro crisis beyond Greek debt travails?
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/moodys-downgrades-deutsche-banks-debt-two-notches-above-junk

    I'm convinced at some point the Eurozone will effectively go bust...
    Just over 20% of the world's money is held in € !
    A lot of it because of quantitative easing.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    I'm not somehow missing a joke here am I? Denying someone the vote like that is utterly heinous.
    "Her calculating mind"...
    Think I might just vote Remain for his mother's sake!
    I'm quite happy to be your proxy
    Not to worry, I've already arranged a postal ballot! I am genuinely undecided though (try and suppress those guffaws chaps)...
    A PB first, we have a floating/undecided voter on PB
    Although I do keep up with politics with quite zealously, I probably miss out on a lot by not actually being in the country (although, as I like to add, probably coming back soon). Still feel a bit naughty voting while not a resident though...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    BIS I reckon, has a lot of foreign trips to keep Boris out of the country, and Sajid Javid has been a bit of a let down.

    Too right he has. He's supposed to be driving deregulation throughout government. I have to say I'm not exactly overwhelmed with the progress, and on the one occasion I wrote to him to propose a cost-free, completely uncontroversial, piece of deregulation, I didn't get an answer. Though it pains me to say it, because I had hopes that he'd be quite good, he's turned to be completely useless.

    Not sure Boris would be any better, mind. To the extent that this job needs to exist at all, it requires detailed grunt work and a lot of chivvying along to overcome inertia and vested interests.
  • GIN1138 said:

    If Remain do win this by the scale the phone polls suggests, then Boris loses his star quality.

    For time short term yes, but who knows how the ground will lay in 2-3 years...
    Boris will have to be the best Northern Ireland Secretary in history for that to happen.
    Boris would have to be mad to accept the NI role. Much better to sit on the back benches and bang out the odd piece in the Telegraph. (assuming Remain win of course)
    If Remain wins, he's reportedly getting either, Health, Education or BIS
    He would still be mad to accept any of those. Don't dance to Cameron's tune.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    I'm not somehow missing a joke here am I? Denying someone the vote like that is utterly heinous.
    "Her calculating mind"...
    Think I might just vote Remain for his mother's sake!
    I'm quite happy to be your proxy
    Not to worry, I've already arranged a postal ballot! I am genuinely undecided though (try and suppress those guffaws chaps)...
    A PB first, we have a floating/undecided voter on PB
    Although I do keep up with politics with quite zealously, I probably miss out on a lot by not actually being in the country (although, as I like to add, probably coming back soon). Still feel a bit naughty voting while not a resident though...
    You're British, you've lived in the UK, you're planning on living in the UK in the future, you have a right to participate in this country's future, you wouldn't be breaking the law or the spirit of the law by voting.

    I'd say that to everyone, Leavers and Remainers.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    Anna said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Anna said:

    Deutsche Bank was downgraded by Moody's today... Do we think the referendum markets factoring in the possibility of a euro crisis beyond Greek debt travails?
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/moodys-downgrades-deutsche-banks-debt-two-notches-above-junk

    I'm convinced at some point the Eurozone will effectively go bust...
    Just over 20% of the world's money is held in € !
    Who knows the remaining 80% might shortly see its purchasing power increase by 1/4 then...
    Reports of the death of the Euro appear every few months, yet it goes on and on. Perhaps the economists predicting its downfall are no better than the rest of them!
    It keeps limping on. Like a wounded animal. With no vet to put it down. Left to die a long horrible death.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    Politics aside, you're a horrible person.
    I'm not somehow missing a joke here am I? Denying someone the vote like that is utterly heinous.
    "Her calculating mind"...
    Think I might just vote Remain for his mother's sake!
    I'm quite happy to be your proxy
    Not to worry, I've already arranged a postal ballot! I am genuinely undecided though (try and suppress those guffaws chaps)...
    A PB first, we have a floating/undecided voter on PB
    Although I do keep up with politics with quite zealously, I probably miss out on a lot by not actually being in the country (although, as I like to add, probably coming back soon). Still feel a bit naughty voting while not a resident though...
    You're British, you've lived in the UK, you're planning on living in the UK in the future, you have a right to participate in this country's future, you wouldn't be breaking the law or the spirit of the law by voting.

    I'd say that to everyone, Leavers and Remainers.
    I'm just an illiterate foreigner living in your country :lol:

    Sunil Prasannan, BSc. (Hons), ARCS, PhD, DIC*



    [* Diploma of Imperial College, NOT Drunk in Charge!]
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414

    Anna said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Anna said:

    Deutsche Bank was downgraded by Moody's today... Do we think the referendum markets factoring in the possibility of a euro crisis beyond Greek debt travails?
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/moodys-downgrades-deutsche-banks-debt-two-notches-above-junk

    I'm convinced at some point the Eurozone will effectively go bust...
    Just over 20% of the world's money is held in € !
    Who knows the remaining 80% might shortly see its purchasing power increase by 1/4 then...
    Reports of the death of the Euro appear every few months, yet it goes on and on. Perhaps the economists predicting its downfall are no better than the rest of them!
    It keeps limping on. Like a wounded animal. With no vet to put it down. Left to die a long horrible death.
    A Euro is for life, not just for June 23rd :)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    It keeps limping on. Like a wounded animal. With no vet to put it down. Left to die a long horrible death.

    And yet the Leavers assure us that there will be ever-closer union whereby the Eurozone countries will be able to gang up, integrate further, and boss us around whether we like it or not.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    GIN1138 said:

    If Remain do win this by the scale the phone polls suggests, then Boris loses his star quality.

    For time short term yes, but who knows how the ground will lay in 2-3 years...
    Boris will have to be the best Northern Ireland Secretary in history for that to happen.
    Boris would have to be mad to accept the NI role. Much better to sit on the back benches and bang out the odd piece in the Telegraph. (assuming Remain win of course)
    If Remain wins, he's reportedly getting either, Health, Education or BIS
    He would still be mad to accept any of those. Don't dance to Cameron's tune.
    They are all heavyweight jobs though. What statement would he make by refusing? That anything bar the "great offices" is beneath him?
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Curiously what they're not saying on Newsnight is that China needs London's financial services but they seem to think the EU doesn't?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726

    My mother is 94 and has indicated that she would be inclined to vote Remain .... But, she'd need my help to vote (she's frail and almost blind) and no way will I support her voting. My theory is that her calculating mind is worried that Brexit might affect her various state pensions/Attendance Allowance/Full Council Tax Rebate. So, she won't vote.

    I hope that this isn't a serious comment.
    What, you expect me to drive 235 miles on 23 June and take her to the Polling Station?
    Then there's still time to arrange a postal vote.
    I want leave to win as much as anyone, but seriously take a look at yourself if your original comment was accurate,
    Yep. Sorry Lewis but I am with Hertsmere here. If your original post was serious then you really need to rethink fast. Democracy is about everyone having the same chance to express their choice. If you would have supported her choice were she going to vote Leave the you damn well should be supporting her if she is going to vote Remain.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    It keeps limping on. Like a wounded animal. With no vet to put it down. Left to die a long horrible death.

    And yet the Leavers assure us that there will be ever-closer union whereby the Eurozone countries will be able to gang up, integrate further, and boss us around whether we like it or not.
    It will. Like a wounded animal trying to bite the vet.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    It keeps limping on. Like a wounded animal. With no vet to put it down. Left to die a long horrible death.

    And yet the Leavers assure us that there will be ever-closer union whereby the Eurozone countries will be able to gang up, integrate further, and boss us around whether we like it or not.
    Wounded animals can be dangerous.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,735
    edited May 2016

    ORB Poll for the Telegraph

    Remain 55 (nc)

    Leave 42 (+2)

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/734848274092412928

    So if the 3% who are don't know back Leave we have 55 45 Remain, an exact repeat of indyref!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    SeanT said:

    It's a truism to say that With A Better Leader, the Labour Party would be 10-15 points ahead, over this flailing Tory government. And indeed it is *true*

    But here's a counter-factual. With a better, more honest Tory prime minister, and a decent Tory Chancellor (perhaps a working class woman in Number 10 and some smart but not creepy posh boy in Number 11), the Tories would be 20-30 points ahead of Corbyn's Labour. Just crushingly superior. And Labour would be looking at a terminal death spiral of panic and despair.

    Both sides have reasons to be grateful that the enemy is so inept and uninspiring.

    Abso-bloody-lutely.

    A Tory PM for the people, for the small businesses, for Britain and able to use our hard and soft powers to good effect would be cruising to 10 more years.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171
    HYUFD said:

    ORB Poll for the Telegraph

    Remain 55 (nc)

    Leave 42 (+2)

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/734848274092412928

    So if the 3% who are don't know back Leave we have 55 45 Remain, an exact repeat of indyref!
    Alternatively, they back remain and it becomes 58/42, which seems a lot more comfortable.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    It keeps limping on. Like a wounded animal. With no vet to put it down. Left to die a long horrible death.

    And yet the Leavers assure us that there will be ever-closer union whereby the Eurozone countries will be able to gang up, integrate further, and boss us around whether we like it or not.
    Errr, like the ever closer Eurozone countries which are using QMV to block our disagreements and limit our renegotiation to a worthless tinkering that limits British economic growth by stealth this very year?
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    The best prison film now on horror channel,Shawshank Redemption has nothing on this ;-)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    SeanT said:

    It's a truism to say that With A Better Leader, the Labour Party would be 10-15 points ahead, over this flailing Tory government. And indeed it is *true*

    But here's a counter-factual. With a better, more honest Tory prime minister, and a decent Tory Chancellor (perhaps a working class woman in Number 10 and some smart but not creepy posh boy in Number 11), the Tories would be 20-30 points ahead of Corbyn's Labour. Just crushingly superior. And Labour would be looking at a terminal death spiral of panic and despair.

    Both sides have reasons to be grateful that the enemy is so inept and uninspiring.

    Some in Labour might be secretly wishing that the Tories were 20-30 points ahead in order to justify dumping their leader.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726

    It keeps limping on. Like a wounded animal. With no vet to put it down. Left to die a long horrible death.

    And yet the Leavers assure us that there will be ever-closer union whereby the Eurozone countries will be able to gang up, integrate further, and boss us around whether we like it or not.
    It is the only way the Eurozone will be able to survive. They have always found a political solution to what appear to be insurmountable problems. Indeed they use seemingly insurmountable problems as an excuse for more political union. This time will be no different, except of course that the political solution will have to be more drastic because the economic problems are so severe.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    It keeps limping on. Like a wounded animal. With no vet to put it down. Left to die a long horrible death.

    And yet the Leavers assure us that there will be ever-closer union whereby the Eurozone countries will be able to gang up, integrate further, and boss us around whether we like it or not.
    It is the only way the Eurozone will be able to survive. They have always found a political solution to what appear to be insurmountable problems. Indeed they use seemingly insurmountable problems as an excuse for more political union. This time will be no different, except of course that the political solution will have to be more drastic because the economic problems are so severe.
    The problem is that the political solutions will not actually fix the problems and will cause riots in the streets.

    In other news, Juncker wants an EU army to "react more credibly to the threat to peace in a member state or in a neighbouring state".

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    Tory voters seem to be prepared to follow their leadership. You have to wonder what British politics would look like if mainstream Tories had spent the last 25 years actually standing up for what they believed in instead of pretending to agree with the populist right.

    Hugo Rifkind has a good article in The Times about what he calls "banter", by which he means politicians espousing views they don't really believe.

    He predicts this referendum should see it's end

    That will be tackling the banter. It’s got to go, even if that means some Tories go with it. If nothing else, it simply won’t work any more. No longer will ministers be able to score easy points by pandering to an insidious, tolerated ideal of a Britain that goes it alone. No longer will they be able to keep the party’s right away from Ukip by intimating, albeit with coy and smirking deniability, that they’re all on the same side. They aren’t. They never were, and finally they’ll have to be honest about it. The banter boat has sailed.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/from-now-on-theres-no-room-for-tory-banter-lsctj5j76
    He's just reiterating what I said yesterday. Following the inevitable REMAIN win, the REMAINIACS (most especially in the Tory party) will own the EU. Defending the EU will have to be their thing, what they do, their speciality and metier, after all - they persuaded us to STAY. So they will have to explain why an EU army, EU taxes, EU hatred of kettles and Queens is good. No more pretending to be a bit UKIPPY.

    There's no getting round this. Every single shitty thing the EU does will be hung round their treacherous necks, like those signs they draped over shamed academics in the Chinese Cultural Revolution, just before they got kicked to death by the kids.
    Except by the time of the next General Election the leading Remainer will already be gone come what may. Within a decade or so the rest of the leading Remainers will be gone too. Think who we still have left from leading figures of 2006 around today? Nearly nobody in the 2006 Cabinet is still in the Labour Cabinet today.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,735
    edited May 2016
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ORB Poll for the Telegraph

    Remain 55 (nc)

    Leave 42 (+2)

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/734848274092412928

    So if the 3% who are don't know back Leave we have 55 45 Remain, an exact repeat of indyref!
    Alternatively, they back remain and it becomes 58/42, which seems a lot more comfortable.
    Given it is a phone poll which favours Remain, I would venture the result will be closer to 55 45 than 60 40
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    Tory voters seem to be prepared to follow their leadership. You have to wonder what British politics would look like if mainstream Tories had spent the last 25 years actually standing up for what they believed in instead of pretending to agree with the populist right.

    Hugo Rifkind has a good article in The Times about what he calls "banter", by which he means politicians espousing views they don't really believe.

    He predicts this referendum should see it's end

    That will be tackling the banter. It’s got to go, even if that means some Tories go with it. If nothing else, it simply won’t work any more. No longer will ministers be able to score easy points by pandering to an insidious, tolerated ideal of a Britain that goes it alone. No longer will they be able to keep the party’s right away from Ukip by intimating, albeit with coy and smirking deniability, that they’re all on the same side. They aren’t. They never were, and finally they’ll have to be honest about it. The banter boat has sailed.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/from-now-on-theres-no-room-for-tory-banter-lsctj5j76
    He's just reiterating what I said yesterday. Following the inevitable REMAIN win, the REMAINIACS (most especially in the Tory party) will own the EU. Defending the EU will have to be their thing, what they do, their speciality and metier, after all - they persuaded us to STAY. So they will have to explain why an EU army, EU taxes, EU hatred of kettles and Queens is good. No more pretending to be a bit UKIPPY.

    There's no getting round this. Every single shitty thing the EU does will be hung round their treacherous necks, like those signs they draped over shamed academics in the Chinese Cultural Revolution, just before they got kicked to death by the kids.
    Except by the time of the next General Election the leading Remainer will already be gone come what may. Within a decade or so the rest of the leading Remainers will be gone too. Think who we still have left from leading figures of 2006 around today? Nearly nobody in the 2006 Cabinet is still in the Labour Cabinet today.
    Erm, much of the 2006 Labour Cabinet were still the cabinet in 2010. And the Chancellor in 2006 was the PM in 2010....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,735
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    Tory voters seem to be prepared to follow their leadership. You have to wonder what British politics would look like if mainstream Tories had spent the last 25 years actually standing up for what they believed in instead of pretending to agree with the populist right.

    Hugo Rifkind has a good article in The Times about what he calls "banter", by which he means politicians espousing views they don't really believe.

    He predicts this referendum should see it's end

    That will b boat has sailed.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/from-now-on-theres-no-room-for-tory-banter-lsctj5j76
    He's just reiterating what I said yesterday. Following the inevitable REMAIN win, the REMAINIACS (most especially in the Tory party) will own the EU. Defending the EU will have to be their thing, what they do, their speciality and metier, after all - they persuaded us to STAY. So they will have to explain why an EU army, EU taxes, EU hatred of kettles and Queens is good. No more pretending to be a bit UKIPPY.

    There's no getting round this. Every single shitty thing the EU does will be hung round their treacherous necks, like those signs they draped over shamed academics in the Chinese Cultural Revolution, just before they got kicked to death by the kids.
    Except by the time of the next General Election the leading Remainer will already be gone come what may. Within a decade or so the rest of the leading Remainers will be gone too. Think who we still have left from leading figures of 2006 around today? Nearly nobody in the 2006 Cabinet is still in the Labour Cabinet today.
    It means Osborne has no chance. He is hated.

    And I finally understand. I hate them, too: I hate everyone who votes for this fucking piece of shit EU. I hate these quisling pigs. TSE, Nabavi. Meeks. Hate them.

    The Tories are the worse. But I cordially despise every pb REMAINIAC, I loathe them for the traitors they are. I HATE THEM.

    I surprise myself by the sincerity and fierceness of my emotion. I guess it touches something atavistic and primordial: nationalism, identity, tribality, macho basic hominid stuff. I have become a frenzied Cybernat. It's not nice. Indeed it is ugly. Horrible.

    Either way, this is really what I feel. Hatred. I will never meet a known PB REMAINIAC in person, ever, for fear I will smash them in the head. They turned on their own country. They are traitors. My only wish is that their every hope is turned to dust, in time.

    Looks like you will be becoming a UKIPnat if Remain do win!
This discussion has been closed.