Farage says he will push for second referendum if Remain wins narrowly
In an interview with the Daily Mirror Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has said that if Remain win the EU referendum narrowly, he will push for a second referendum. He told the paper:
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
His over emphasis on this outcome suggests that it is his central expectation.
Given the political trajectory the EU is on, and its economic dysfunctionality, there is no way this issue will go away.
I am afraid that privatisation is not a left wing policy. It is a right wing one.
Frankly, though, I think it is rather silly to try to place the Nazis and Mussolini on the traditional right/left spectrum.
The left, however, has to take Stalin. On a smaller, less brutal - but still profoundly unpleasant and murderous - scale, Franco and the other southern European dictators of the mid-twentieth century were clearly on the right, as was the Apartheid regime in South Africa.
Indeed it is silly - I was reacting to @ydoethur's casual placing of Hitler and Mussolini on the right. As a history teacher he should know that things are more complicated than that
On privatisation - it's right wing if it's driven by a belief that the organisations are better run in private hands. If it's just a means to enrich your allies I don't think it is a right/left thing - it's just a mechanism at that point.
They sold themselves as defenders of the established institutions against Communism. They were bankrolled by big business and supported by the Catholic Church. They assimilated the Freikorps, who were assembled to fight against Communism and crush the trade union/Spartacist movement. They included among their members many former senior army officers, including Goering, who joined because they disliked Jews and Communists. They were obsessed with the amassing of personal wealth and the nihilist ideas of Nietsche and Darwinism. That sounds right wing to me. Try Evans, The Coming of the Third Reich, for more information.
Oh, I thought you generally opposed to them, given we live in a representative democracy. May be getting you confused with someone else (if so, my profound apologies)
Farage says he will push for second referendum if Remain wins narrowly
In an interview with the Daily Mirror Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has said that if Remain win the EU referendum narrowly, he will push for a second referendum. He told the paper:
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
His over emphasis on this outcome suggests that it is his central expectation.
It's all every SIndy in tactics.
So he won't be complaining when Leave win 52-48 and Cameron renegotiates with EU and calls a 2nd referendum next year?
Thought not.
That would be an ideal scenario.
A proper renegotiation followed by a serious choice between LEAVE and the best deal we could get to REMAIN.
1. Cutting those over-large salaries that the top people get? NO! 2. Cutting those over-large salaries that middle management get? NO! 3. Cutting those great expensive studios that are seldom used? NO!
4. Cutting 15,000 recipes from a website to save £15M? YES! YES! YES!
5. Getting the supine Cameroon government to increase the the price of it's License fee for 11 years? YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
Just classic BBC...look look look over over there we are cutting something, because of nasty government, booo booo...
You only have to look at all the nonsense over BBC3.
Reminds me of all the Labour councils who in reaction to government spending cuts wouldn't cut diversity coordinators and other non-jobs, no it was close all public bogs...
Er, why does it cost anything to keep 11,000 EXISTING recipes online? A few quid for the server.
Sounds more and more like the BBC did this to elicit exactly this kind of response. I've not seen any evidence that they government forced them to cut the recipe website specifically (and they'd have been fools to have done so).
Surely this is exactly what government policy is aimed at. Stopping the BBC crowding out putative private sector food websites.
John Whittingdale is straying into Osborne's omnishambles territory. He wants the BBC hamstrung but has not considered its impact on the public or his own supporters.
Yes, but I suspect it was chosen by the BBC as a cut that would garner the most protest.
Dropping any of the popular television programmes that had aroused Mr Whittingdale's enmity would do that far more easily. The Voice, for instance, must surely have far more viewers than the recipe web site.
And I now see the BBC even quotes the Chancellor: Last year, Chancellor George Osborne said the BBC website was becoming "a bit more imperial in its ambitions". "If you've got a website that's got features and cooking recipes - effectively the BBC website becomes the national newspaper as well as the national broadcaster. "There are those sorts of issues we need to look at very carefully," he said.
Farage says he will push for second referendum if Remain wins narrowly
In an interview with the Daily Mirror Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has said that if Remain win the EU referendum narrowly, he will push for a second referendum. He told the paper:
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
His over emphasis on this outcome suggests that it is his central expectation.
It's all every SIndy in tactics.
But, it does recognise the asymmetric nature of this argument. Like the SNP, Leave have to get lucky once. Their opponents have to get lucky all the time.
1. Cutting those over-large salaries that the top people get? NO! 2. Cutting those over-large salaries that middle management get? NO! 3. Cutting those great expensive studios that are seldom used? NO!
4. Cutting 15,000 recipes from a website to save £15M? YES! YES! YES!
5. Getting the supine Cameroon government to increase the the price of it's License fee for 11 years? YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
Just classic BBC...look look look over over there we are cutting something, because of nasty government, booo booo...
You only have to look at all the nonsense over BBC3.
Reminds me of all the Labour councils who in reaction to government spending cuts wouldn't cut diversity coordinators and other non-jobs, no it was close all public bogs...
Er, why does it cost anything to keep 11,000 EXISTING recipes online? A few quid for the server.
Sounds more and more like the BBC did this to elicit exactly this kind of response. I've not seen any evidence that they government forced them to cut the recipe website specifically (and they'd have been fools to have done so).
Surely this is exactly what government policy is aimed at. Stopping the BBC crowding out putative private sector food websites.
John Whittingdale is straying into Osborne's omnishambles territory. He wants the BBC hamstrung but has not considered its impact on the public or his own supporters.
Yes, but I suspect it was chosen by the BBC as a cut that would garner the most protest.
Dropping any of the popular television programmes that had aroused Mr Whittingdale's enmity would do that far more easily. The Voice, for instance, must surely have far more viewers than the recipe web site.
And I now see the BBC even quotes the Chancellor: Last year, Chancellor George Osborne said the BBC website was becoming "a bit more imperial in its ambitions". "If you've got a website that's got features and cooking recipes - effectively the BBC website becomes the national newspaper as well as the national broadcaster. "There are those sorts of issues we need to look at very carefully," he said.
The Voice has already gone to ITV, besides it isn't a BBC original, they paid a crap tonne of money to buy it in from the states. As for viewers, I wouldn't be so sure, the Voice does appalling badly.
But other being wrong on every aspect, not a bad effort....
Mr. D, hmm. I'm reasonably sure I've been in favour of them for issues like Scottish independence or leaving the EU (or, if it were to happen, rejoining it). You may be thinking of Mr. W.
Farage says he will push for second referendum if Remain wins narrowly
In an interview with the Daily Mirror Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has said that if Remain win the EU referendum narrowly, he will push for a second referendum. He told the paper:
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
His over emphasis on this outcome suggests that it is his central expectation.
It's all every SIndy in tactics.
But, it does recognise the asymmetric nature of this argument. Like the SNP, Leave have to get lucky once. Their opponents have to get lucky all the time.
Additionally, there is the case of Cameron's deal being completely ignored by the EU. I can imagine when our opt-out is ignored the Brexit drum will begin beating again.
Mr. D, hmm. I'm reasonably sure I've been in favour of them for issues like Scottish independence or leaving the EU (or, if it were to happen, rejoining it). You may be thinking of Mr. W.
Farage says he will push for second referendum if Remain wins narrowly
In an interview with the Daily Mirror Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has said that if Remain win the EU referendum narrowly, he will push for a second referendum. He told the paper:
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
His over emphasis on this outcome suggests that it is his central expectation.
It's all every SIndy in tactics.
But, it does recognise the asymmetric nature of this argument. Like the SNP, Leave have to get lucky once. Their opponents have to get lucky all the time.
Absolutely - and it will be a war of attrition if Remain wins, perhaps more so because people are more aware/positions taken - and it's not such a single party [SNP] issue.
Interesting to see Charles express emerging right wing political correctness and revisionist history.
Whist his desire to repaint the right as motherhood and apple pie is understandable, I fear that his argument that the far right aren't right wing is a bridge too far.
Why are the "far right" far right? On what spectrum?
They were left wing economically. They wrapped themselves in the symbols of nationalism (arguably without being truly patriotic). They were anti-establishment and iconoclastic.
As SO said, right/left isn't really an appropriate measure for something like this. But it's a convenient smear, so the mass media doesn't actually think too hard about the academic verities.
Don't confuse your personal opinions with "academic verities". The interesting question is why you feel the need to mount such arguments.
Why I felt the need isn't particularly interesting (and I slightly resent the implication) - it was because @ydoethur referred to it as a right wing ideology, which it isn't.
On "academic verities" my personal opinions may well be wrong - I am sure that smarter people that me will argue about these things for a long time. I was just making the point that the left is very happy to equate fascism = right wing for their political advantage [e.g. the anti fascist league seems to exclusively square off against the BNP/EL etc but ignores equally nasty organisations that are perceived as not being "on the right"], while the mass media doesn't think too hard about whether that is correct or not.
Farage says he will push for second referendum if Remain wins narrowly
In an interview with the Daily Mirror Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has said that if Remain win the EU referendum narrowly, he will push for a second referendum. He told the paper:
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
His over emphasis on this outcome suggests that it is his central expectation.
It's all every SIndy in tactics.
But, it does recognise the asymmetric nature of this argument. Like the SNP, Leave have to get lucky once. Their opponents have to get lucky all the time.
Is this Budapest '56, the Prague Spring of '68 or Berlin '89 ? Hopefully, the last.
Can I just say how outrageous it is that having been told to make cuts the BBC is making cuts? How dare they. It just proves their bias.
Yes of course. Because they couldn't find anywhere else to cut....hmm like spending a load of money on a new logo for a channel that was supposed to be closing, took 2 years extra to close than simply flicking the switch and then rebranded it online so in fact not closing it at all.
And in terms of savings, wiping some recipes off the net doesn't save any money. In fact it probably costs money to action that, especially with all the red tape that is the BBC.
As I said down thread it is like the closing all the public bogs move. It is just designed to get publicity, nothing more. If they were serious about saving money or new remits, there are is far more major reforms, but instead it is get the MumsNet crowd pissed move instead.
Farage says he will push for second referendum if Remain wins narrowly
In an interview with the Daily Mirror Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has said that if Remain win the EU referendum narrowly, he will push for a second referendum. He told the paper:
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
His over emphasis on this outcome suggests that it is his central expectation.
It's all every SIndy in tactics.
But, it does recognise the asymmetric nature of this argument. Like the SNP, Leave have to get lucky once. Their opponents have to get lucky all the time.
Additionally, there is the case of Cameron's deal being completely ignored by the EU. I can imagine when our opt-out is ignored the Brexit drum will begin beating again.
I think that'd be a legitimate reason to campaign for another referendum.
1. Cutting those over-large salaries that the top people get? NO! 2. Cutting those over-large salaries that middle management get? NO! 3. Cutting those great expensive studios that are seldom used? NO!
4. Cutting 15,000 recipes from a website to save £15M? YES! YES! YES!
5. Getting the supine Cameroon government to increase the the price of it's License fee for 11 years? YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
Is the BBC on the hook to reduce expenditure? I thought the license fee was going up with inflation? And really, why has the BBC got a database of 11k recipes in the first place.
More to the point, if they have the database already, why does it cost £15m to host them on a website? I'd do it for £12m...
Farage says he will push for second referendum if Remain wins narrowly
In an interview with the Daily Mirror Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has said that if Remain win the EU referendum narrowly, he will push for a second referendum. He told the paper:
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
His over emphasis on this outcome suggests that it is his central expectation.
It's all every SIndy in tactics.
But, it does recognise the asymmetric nature of this argument. Like the SNP, Leave have to get lucky once. Their opponents have to get lucky all the time.
Absolutely - and it will be a war of attrition if Remain wins, perhaps more so because people are more aware/positions taken - and it's not such a single party [SNP] issue.
The problem for Leave is that this is not a mainstream popular issue, as the turnout is likely to reflect. Parties that obsess about Europe are unlikely to be rewarded by the general electorate.
Can I just say how outrageous it is that having been told to make cuts the BBC is making cuts? How dare they. It just proves their bias.
Just so happened that the cut they chose was the one which elicited a very strong reaction, rather than cutting pay, or crap output etc.
The wrong kind of cuts?
Presumably, the BBC has decided that offering recipes does not fit the remit the Culture Secretary has stated he believes it should fulfil.
You can surely see the game they are playing though. Fair enough to not maintain it, but to delete entirely just smacks of a toys and pram situation.
Once again though, were the Beeb not funded via tax, no-one would give a stuff about whether it used its money to engage in a non-core activity or not.
Can I just say how outrageous it is that having been told to make cuts the BBC is making cuts? How dare they. It just proves their bias.
Yes of course. Because they couldn't find anywhere else to cut....hmm like spending a load of money on a new logo for a channel that was supposed to be closing, took 2 years extra to close than simply flicking the switch and then rebranded it online so in fact not closing it at all.
And in terms of savings, wiping some recipes off the net doesn't save any money. In fact it probably costs money to action that, especially with all the red tape that is the BBC.
As I said down thread it is like the closing all the public bogs move. It is just designed to get publicity, nothing more.
Well if you are looking at the BBC making savings on their website, I would cut live coverage of Barcelona and Real Madrid matches as well as live coverage of Champions League matches outside of the English/Scottish sides that make it through. It's just overseas jaunts for sports journalists and ex-football players.
I know we're sceptical of ORB given their tiny % Undecided share, yet this caught my eye.
Meanwhile the proportion of soft voters – those either undecided or likely to change their minds come polling day – remains relatively low. Fifteen per cent are now considered soft voters, a drop of six points from last month.
Moreover 11 per cent of Remain voters and 9 per cent of Leave voters are soft, a decrease of 4 and 8 points respectively since the last poll in April.
There's an interesting divergence in the Populus/Matt Singh polls that TSE keeps referencing from March.
Remain 24 points ahead on Mobiles, 4 behind on landlines.
Presumably, though, mobile usage is heavily weighted to young/more affluent so plays strongly to the Remain backing groups?
Farage says he will push for second referendum if Remain wins narrowly
In an interview with the Daily Mirror Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has said that if Remain win the EU referendum narrowly, he will push for a second referendum. He told the paper:
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
His over emphasis on this outcome suggests that it is his central expectation.
It's all every SIndy in tactics.
But, it does recognise the asymmetric nature of this argument. Like the SNP, Leave have to get lucky once. Their opponents have to get lucky all the time.
If they scrape home thanks to massive lies and deceptions, they have in reality lost - and the verdict will be reversed in due course, probably by a large margin.
1. Cutting those over-large salaries that the top people get? NO! 2. Cutting those over-large salaries that middle management get? NO! 3. Cutting those great expensive studios that are seldom used? NO!
4. Cutting 15,000 recipes from a website to save £15M? YES! YES! YES!
5. Getting the supine Cameroon government to increase the the price of it's License fee for 11 years? YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
Is the BBC on the hook to reduce expenditure? I thought the license fee was going up with inflation? And really, why has the BBC got a database of 11k recipes in the first place.
More to the point, if they have the database already, why does it cost £15m to host them on a website? I'd do it for £12m...
It's apparently *part* of £15m worth of IT-based cuts. They don't say how big a part. Were it the whole lot, it'd be around £1350 per recipe!
Farage says he will push for second referendum if Remain wins narrowly
In an interview with the Daily Mirror Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has said that if Remain win the EU referendum narrowly, he will push for a second referendum. He told the paper:
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
His over emphasis on this outcome suggests that it is his central expectation.
It's all every SIndy in tactics.
But, it does recognise the asymmetric nature of this argument. Like the SNP, Leave have to get lucky once. Their opponents have to get lucky all the time.
Absolutely - and it will be a war of attrition if Remain wins, perhaps more so because people are more aware/positions taken - and it's not such a single party [SNP] issue.
The problem for Leave is that this is not a mainstream popular issue, as the turnout is likely to reflect. Parties that obsess about Europe are unlikely to be rewarded by the general electorate.
Isn't that the same fallacy... people don't care about the EU but are really irked by immigration, and all the other stuff we know about - and many more people beyond PB will have learned as a result of EUref?
I think we've been here before dozens of times with threads saying "EU isn't important says MORI"
Can I just say how outrageous it is that having been told to make cuts the BBC is making cuts? How dare they. It just proves their bias.
Yes of course. Because they couldn't find anywhere else to cut....hmm like spending a load of money on a new logo for a channel that was supposed to be closing, took 2 years extra to close than simply flicking the switch and then rebranded it online so in fact not closing it at all.
And in terms of savings, wiping some recipes off the net doesn't save any money. In fact it probably costs money to action that, especially with all the red tape that is the BBC.
As I said down thread it is like the closing all the public bogs move. It is just designed to get publicity, nothing more.
Well if you are looking at the BBC making savings on their website, I would cut live coverage of Barcelona and Real Madrid matches as well as live coverage of Champions League matches outside of the English/Scottish sides that make it through. It's just overseas jaunts for sports journalists and ex-football players.
Well there is also the move where they have 10 different journalists reporting from the same event, none of which they have the rights to show live tv coverage for.
In comparison when Sky have the rights to something, they make their team do the reports for Sky News, Sky Sports News, Sky Sports pre show, the actual show, post show, operate the technology etc etc etc.
Can I just say how outrageous it is that having been told to make cuts the BBC is making cuts? How dare they. It just proves their bias.
Just so happened that the cut they chose was the one which elicited a very strong reaction, rather than cutting pay, or crap output etc.
The wrong kind of cuts?
Presumably, the BBC has decided that offering recipes does not fit the remit the Culture Secretary has stated he believes it should fulfil.
You can surely see the game they are playing though. Fair enough to not maintain it, but to delete entirely just smacks of a toys and pram situation.
Once again though, were the Beeb not funded via tax, no-one would give a stuff about whether it used its money to engage in a non-core activity or not.
Except maybe the shareholders, but as long as they could sell enough advertising or make enough commission from sales of recipe books/groceries from their recipe pages it wouldn't be an issue. The fact that the BBC host these and aren't able to properly monetise them is an issue. If anything they should look to spin off the whole BBC Recipe website into a commercial entity, that way they can profit from the sale and the people get to keep what they want.
Farage says he will push for second referendum if Remain wins narrowly
In an interview with the Daily Mirror Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has said that if Remain win the EU referendum narrowly, he will push for a second referendum. He told the paper:
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
His over emphasis on this outcome suggests that it is his central expectation.
It's all every SIndy in tactics.
But, it does recognise the asymmetric nature of this argument. Like the SNP, Leave have to get lucky once. Their opponents have to get lucky all the time.
Absolutely - and it will be a war of attrition if Remain wins, perhaps more so because people are more aware/positions taken - and it's not such a single party [SNP] issue.
The problem for Leave is that this is not a mainstream popular issue, as the turnout is likely to reflect. Parties that obsess about Europe are unlikely to be rewarded by the general electorate.
Isn't that the same fallacy... people don't care about the EU but are really irked by immigration, and all the other stuff we know about - and many more people beyond PB will have learned as a result of EUref?
I think we've been here before dozens of times with threads saying "EU isn't important says MORI"
Let's see what the turnout is. If parties what to frame everything in terms of the EU even after the referendum, that's fine. I doubt they will be thanked for it, but I could well be wrong.
I am afraid that privatisation is not a left wing policy. It is a right wing one.
Frankly, though, I think it is rather silly to try to place the Nazis and Mussolini on the traditional right/left spectrum.
The left, however, has to take Stalin. On a smaller, less brutal - but still profoundly unpleasant and murderous - scale, Franco and the other southern European dictators of the mid-twentieth century were clearly on the right, as was the Apartheid regime in South Africa.
Indeed it is silly - I was reacting to @ydoethur's casual placing of Hitler and Mussolini on the right. As a history teacher he should know that things are more complicated than that
On privatisation - it's right wing if it's driven by a belief that the organisations are better run in private hands. If it's just a means to enrich your allies I don't think it is a right/left thing - it's just a mechanism at that point.
They sold themselves as defenders of the established institutions against Communism. They were bankrolled by big business and supported by the Catholic Church. They assimilated the Freikorps, who were assembled to fight against Communism and crush the trade union/Spartacist movement. They included among their members many former senior army officers, including Goering, who joined because they disliked Jews and Communists. They were obsessed with the amassing of personal wealth and the nihilist ideas of Nietsche and Darwinism. That sounds right wing to me. Try Evans, The Coming of the Third Reich, for more information.
The Catholic Church supported the Zentrum, which funny enough was called the Catholic Centre Party, which was a coalition partner in government throughout the Weimar Republic until Bruening's fall.
THE free-spending culture in the corridors of power at the BBC has wasted almost £350million of licence fee payers’ money on excessive pay-offs for departing executives, lavish relocation packages and a failed digital scheme.
Can I just say how outrageous it is that having been told to make cuts the BBC is making cuts? How dare they. It just proves their bias.
Yes of course. Because they couldn't find anywhere else to cut....hmm like spending a load of money on a new logo for a channel that was supposed to be closing, took 2 years extra to close than simply flicking the switch and then rebranded it online so in fact not closing it at all.
And in terms of savings, wiping some recipes off the net doesn't save any money. In fact it probably costs money to action that, especially with all the red tape that is the BBC.
As I said down thread it is like the closing all the public bogs move. It is just designed to get publicity, nothing more. If they were serious about saving money or new remits, there are is far more major reforms, but instead it is get the MumsNet crowd pissed move instead.
This is one of a number of cuts. I suspect there will be plenty more.
Can I just say how outrageous it is that having been told to make cuts the BBC is making cuts? How dare they. It just proves their bias.
Yes of course. Because they couldn't find anywhere else to cut....hmm like spending a load of money on a new logo for a channel that was supposed to be closing, took 2 years extra to close than simply flicking the switch and then rebranded it online so in fact not closing it at all.
And in terms of savings, wiping some recipes off the net doesn't save any money. In fact it probably costs money to action that, especially with all the red tape that is the BBC.
As I said down thread it is like the closing all the public bogs move. It is just designed to get publicity, nothing more. If they were serious about saving money or new remits, there are is far more major reforms, but instead it is get the MumsNet crowd pissed move instead.
This is one of a number of cuts. I suspect there will be plenty more.
It isn't a cut that will save any money...it is pure posturing.
Farage says he will push for second referendum if Remain wins narrowly
In an interview with the Daily Mirror Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has said that if Remain win the EU referendum narrowly, he will push for a second referendum. He told the paper:
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.
His over emphasis on this outcome suggests that it is his central expectation.
It's all every SIndy in tactics.
But, it does recognise the asymmetric nature of this argument. Like the SNP, Leave have to get lucky once. Their opponents have to get lucky all the time.
Absolutely - and it will be a war of attrition if Remain wins, perhaps more so because people are more aware/positions taken - and it's not such a single party [SNP] issue.
The problem for Leave is that this is not a mainstream popular issue, as the turnout is likely to reflect. Parties that obsess about Europe are unlikely to be rewarded by the general electorate.
Isn't that the same fallacy... people don't care about the EU but are really irked by immigration, and all the other stuff we know about - and many more people beyond PB will have learned as a result of EUref?
I think we've been here before dozens of times with threads saying "EU isn't important says MORI"
Let's see what the turnout is. If parties what to frame everything in terms of the EU even after the referendum, that's fine. I doubt they will be thanked for it, but I could well be wrong.
What hopefully will come out of this is a substantial raising of awareness of the importance of the EU in determining what happens on all these bread and butter issues. It will be a less abstract thing than before.
Ironically, the hysterics of the REMAIN side will increase this process. They used to tell us it wasn't terribly important and we shouldn't fuss about it. It will be rather hard to go back to that formula now.
I am afraid that privatisation is not a left wing policy. It is a right wing one.
Frankly, though, I think it is rather silly to try to place the Nazis and Mussolini on the traditional right/left spectrum.
The left, however, has to take Stalin. On a smaller, less brutal - but still profoundly unpleasant and murderous - scale, Franco and the other southern European dictators of the mid-twentieth century were clearly on the right, as was the Apartheid regime in South Africa.
Indeed it is silly - I was reacting to @ydoethur's casual placing of Hitler and Mussolini on the right. As a history teacher he should know that things are more complicated than that
On privatisation - it's right wing if it's driven by a belief that the organisations are better run in private hands. If it's just a means to enrich your allies I don't think it is a right/left thing - it's just a mechanism at that point.
They sold themselves as defenders of the established institutions against Communism. They were bankrolled by big business and supported by the Catholic Church. They assimilated the Freikorps, who were assembled to fight against Communism and crush the trade union/Spartacist movement. They included among their members many former senior army officers, including Goering, who joined because they disliked Jews and Communists. They were obsessed with the amassing of personal wealth and the nihilist ideas of Nietsche and Darwinism. That sounds right wing to me. Try Evans, The Coming of the Third Reich, for more information.
The Catholic Church supported the Zentrum, which funny enough was called the Catholic Centre Party, which was a coalition partner in government throughout the Weimar Republic until Bruening's fall.
I don't think the Nazis easily fit into Left/Right categorisation. Some of their long-term aims, such as the eradication of Christianity, were completely at odds with those of German Conservatives.
Presumably, though, mobile usage is heavily weighted to young/more affluent so plays strongly to the Remain backing groups?
I would assume so. This is from Ofcom on mobile access:
Smartphones have become the hub of our daily lives and are now in the pockets of two thirds (66%) of UK adults, up from 39% in 2012. The vast majority (90%) of 16-24 year olds own one; but 55-64 year olds are also joining the smartphone revolution, with ownership in this age group more than doubling since 2012, from 19% to 50%.
On the basis of the things I witness, I also see younger people as much more active users of their mobiles/smartphones than older generations.
THE free-spending culture in the corridors of power at the BBC has wasted almost £350million of licence fee payers’ money on excessive pay-offs for departing executives, lavish relocation packages and a failed digital scheme.
If only they had used that £8mn to keep the 2015 election show in iPlayer for another year (and perhaps bought the rights to the sky/itv coverage). That's a policy I'm sure @Scrapheap_as_was could get behind
New TNS poll see sharp move to LEAVE Remain 38 (-1), Leave 41% (+5), DK 21% (-5)
Christ. My heart can't take much more of this.
TNS is one of the few online polls to have Remain ahead, so this might be a reversion to the mean for online pollsters.
As ever with shifts this large, we need to see other polls, so far, it appears to be an outlier, we should be getting the Ipsos Mori poll tomorrow and a ComRes phone some time this week, so we can judge properly then.
THE free-spending culture in the corridors of power at the BBC has wasted almost £350million of licence fee payers’ money on excessive pay-offs for departing executives, lavish relocation packages and a failed digital scheme.
If only they had used that £8mn to keep the 2015 election show in iPlayer for another year (and perhaps bought the rights to the sky/itv coverage). That's a policy I'm sure @Scrapheap_as_was could get behind
Well if they spent £8m on making iPlayer decent. Technologically it is utter bollocks platform. The pirates deploy their content via better tech than the BBC.
THE free-spending culture in the corridors of power at the BBC has wasted almost £350million of licence fee payers’ money on excessive pay-offs for departing executives, lavish relocation packages and a failed digital scheme.
If only they had used that £8mn to keep the 2015 election show in iPlayer for another year (and perhaps bought the rights to the sky/itv coverage). That's a policy I'm sure @Scrapheap_as_was could get behind
Well if they spent £8m on making iPlayer decent. Technologically it is utter bollocks platform. The pirates deploy their content via better tech than the BBC.
Can't say I've ever had any problems with it, although I only watch some politics shows on it.
New TNS poll see sharp move to LEAVE Remain 38 (-1), Leave 41% (+5), DK 21% (-5)
Christ. My heart can't take much more of this.
TNS is one of the few online polls to have Remain ahead, so this might be a reversion to the mean for online pollsters.
As ever with shifts this large, we need to see other polls, so far, it appears to be an outlier, we should be getting the Ipsos Mori poll tomorrow and a ComRes phone some time this week, so we can judge properly then.
I have to say if you had wanted a set of polls that was designed to spread yet more confusion you couldn't have asked for a better set than the ICM, ORB and TNS polls of the last 24 hours. Who the hell can make any conclusions from them?
If so, have you got your postal/proxy vote sorted out for this referendum?
Yeah but I'm thinking about abstaining as I feel a bit guilty voting from overseas (even if I may come back sometime next year). Also I haven't got a clue how I'd vote...
THE free-spending culture in the corridors of power at the BBC has wasted almost £350million of licence fee payers’ money on excessive pay-offs for departing executives, lavish relocation packages and a failed digital scheme.
If only they had used that £8mn to keep the 2015 election show in iPlayer for another year (and perhaps bought the rights to the sky/itv coverage). That's a policy I'm sure @Scrapheap_as_was could get behind
Well if they spent £8m on making iPlayer decent. Technologically it is utter bollocks platform. The pirates deploy their content via better tech than the BBC.
Can't say I've ever had any problems with it, although I only watch some politics shows on it.
Underneath the hood, the platform they have created is very poor.
@runnymede" "Given the political trajectory the EU is on, and its economic dysfunctionality, there is no way this issue will go away."
Quite right and if Remain wins the vote it does not mean that those who believe that the UK would be a better to place if it left the EU will suddenly change their beliefs.
I became convinced that the EU was bad for the UK at the time of the Maastricht Treaty, a very minority view at that time, and since then I have been quietly and gently arguing my point at every suitable opportunity. Now, it would seem that my view is mainstream if not actually a majority one. If remain wins I'll carry on as I have been for the past 20-odd years and I expect that they stupidities of the EU hierarchy will win more people over to the Better Off Out position over the next few years.
Leave aside, if you will, the ideological Europhiles, there are I think a significant number of people who don't like the EU but on balance think the economic benefits of staying in outweigh the negative aspects and the unknowns of voting to leave. Over the coming years that number will gradually reduce as the EU becomes ever more intrusive and economically scroletic. That will lead to a majority wishing to leave, the issue will not be settled by this referendum.
I know we're sceptical of ORB given their tiny % Undecided share, yet this caught my eye.
Meanwhile the proportion of soft voters – those either undecided or likely to change their minds come polling day – remains relatively low. Fifteen per cent are now considered soft voters, a drop of six points from last month.
Moreover 11 per cent of Remain voters and 9 per cent of Leave voters are soft, a decrease of 4 and 8 points respectively since the last poll in April.
There's an interesting divergence in the Populus/Matt Singh polls that TSE keeps referencing from March.
Remain 24 points ahead on Mobiles, 4 behind on landlines.
Presumably, though, mobile usage is heavily weighted to young/more affluent so plays strongly to the Remain backing groups?
My experience? The under 35s in London and the south-east are overwhelmingly for Remain.
I went on an "AB" stag-do of 14 at the weekend and I was one of only two Leavers, the other only confessing to me in whispers that Obama's intervention had tipped him over the edge. When I confessed to being a strong Leaver I got looks as if I had just confessed to multiple bestial relations with everyone's pet dog.
However, the one other Leaver did become much more audible later on when a bit more alcohol had been consumed and he found out the UK result in the Eurovision Song Contest in the minibus on the way home.
Interestingly, there was one Remainer who was moving to undecided because he felt he'd only heard one side of the argument.
THE free-spending culture in the corridors of power at the BBC has wasted almost £350million of licence fee payers’ money on excessive pay-offs for departing executives, lavish relocation packages and a failed digital scheme.
If only they had used that £8mn to keep the 2015 election show in iPlayer for another year (and perhaps bought the rights to the sky/itv coverage). That's a policy I'm sure @Scrapheap_as_was could get behind
Well if they spent £8m on making iPlayer decent. Technologically it is utter bollocks platform. The pirates deploy their content via better tech than the BBC.
Can't say I've ever had any problems with it, although I only watch some politics shows on it.
Underneath the hood, the platform they have created is very poor.
Fair point, and I suppose that matters the more people use it. Oh well, another couple of £mn to fix it.
New TNS poll see sharp move to LEAVE Remain 38 (-1), Leave 41% (+5), DK 21% (-5)
Christ. My heart can't take much more of this.
TNS is one of the few online polls to have Remain ahead, so this might be a reversion to the mean for online pollsters.
As ever with shifts this large, we need to see other polls, so far, it appears to be an outlier, we should be getting the Ipsos Mori poll tomorrow and a ComRes phone some time this week, so we can judge properly then.
I have to say if you had wanted a set of polls that was designed to spread yet more confusion you couldn't have asked for a better set than the ICM, ORB and TNS polls of the last 24 hours. Who the hell can make any conclusions from them?
Tea leaves Richard and look at the data that best suits you
I know a leaver who this morning is convinced Remain are going to win because Farage is already planning for a second referendum.
THE free-spending culture in the corridors of power at the BBC has wasted almost £350million of licence fee payers’ money on excessive pay-offs for departing executives, lavish relocation packages and a failed digital scheme.
If only they had used that £8mn to keep the 2015 election show in iPlayer for another year (and perhaps bought the rights to the sky/itv coverage). That's a policy I'm sure @Scrapheap_as_was could get behind
Well if they spent £8m on making iPlayer decent. Technologically it is utter bollocks platform. The pirates deploy their content via better tech than the BBC.
Can't say I've ever had any problems with it, although I only watch some politics shows on it.
I only use it when someone here gasps at a DP horror and I need to rewind a few mins to catch it.
Can I just say how outrageous it is that having been told to make cuts the BBC is making cuts? How dare they. It just proves their bias.
Just so happened that the cut they chose was the one which elicited a very strong reaction, rather than cutting pay, or crap output etc.
The wrong kind of cuts?
Presumably, the BBC has decided that offering recipes does not fit the remit the Culture Secretary has stated he believes it should fulfil.
You can surely see the game they are playing though. Fair enough to not maintain it, but to delete entirely just smacks of a toys and pram situation.
Once again though, were the Beeb not funded via tax, no-one would give a stuff about whether it used its money to engage in a non-core activity or not.
Except maybe the shareholders, but as long as they could sell enough advertising or make enough commission from sales of recipe books/groceries from their recipe pages it wouldn't be an issue. The fact that the BBC host these and aren't able to properly monetise them is an issue. If anything they should look to spin off the whole BBC Recipe website into a commercial entity, that way they can profit from the sale and the people get to keep what they want.
True. Personally, I'd prefer to see the Beeb converted into a mutual owned by its licence-fee payers / subscribers in the future, rather than to sell it off to independent share-holders.
However, your main point I largely agree with. I wouldn't have a problem with the Beeb keeping the recipes site under their control but it's symptomatic of their thinking that it's a cost to be cut rather than an asset to be worked for profit.
If so, have you got your postal/proxy vote sorted out for this referendum?
Yeah but I'm thinking about abstaining as I feel a bit guilty voting from overseas (even if I may come back sometime next year). Also I haven't got a clue how I'd vote...
If in doubt, vote for the status quo.
Plus you're as British as English Tea, you should have no worries about voting whilst overseas.
If so, have you got your postal/proxy vote sorted out for this referendum?
Yeah but I'm thinking about abstaining as I feel a bit guilty voting from overseas (even if I may come back sometime next year). Also I haven't got a clue how I'd vote...
Assuming you intend to live here in the next 40yrs, you've every right to vote - that's the last time period.
If so, have you got your postal/proxy vote sorted out for this referendum?
Yeah but I'm thinking about abstaining as I feel a bit guilty voting from overseas (even if I may come back sometime next year). Also I haven't got a clue how I'd vote...
If in doubt, vote for the status quo.
Plus you're as British as English Tea, you should have no worries about voting whilst overseas.
If so, have you got your postal/proxy vote sorted out for this referendum?
Yeah but I'm thinking about abstaining as I feel a bit guilty voting from overseas (even if I may come back sometime next year). Also I haven't got a clue how I'd vote...
As the longest serving pbTory, I feel it my duty to act as your proxy.
If so, have you got your postal/proxy vote sorted out for this referendum?
Yeah but I'm thinking about abstaining as I feel a bit guilty voting from overseas (even if I may come back sometime next year). Also I haven't got a clue how I'd vote...
As the longest serving pbTory, I feel it my duty to act as your proxy.
No guarantee you'll make it to the polling place though, especially if a train journey is involved...
If so, have you got your postal/proxy vote sorted out for this referendum?
Yeah but I'm thinking about abstaining as I feel a bit guilty voting from overseas (even if I may come back sometime next year). Also I haven't got a clue how I'd vote...
If in doubt, vote for the status quo.
Plus you're as British as English Tea, you should have no worries about voting whilst overseas.
Can I just say how outrageous it is that having been told to make cuts the BBC is making cuts? How dare they. It just proves their bias.
Just so happened that the cut they chose was the one which elicited a very strong reaction, rather than cutting pay, or crap output etc.
The wrong kind of cuts?
Presumably, the BBC has decided that offering recipes does not fit the remit the Culture Secretary has stated he believes it should fulfil.
You can surely see the game they are playing though. Fair enough to not maintain it, but to delete entirely just smacks of a toys and pram situation.
Once again though, were the Beeb not funded via tax, no-one would give a stuff about whether it used its money to engage in a non-core activity or not.
Except maybe the shareholders, but as long as they could sell enough advertising or make enough commission from sales of recipe books/groceries from their recipe pages it wouldn't be an issue. The fact that the BBC host these and aren't able to properly monetise them is an issue. If anything they should look to spin off the whole BBC Recipe website into a commercial entity, that way they can profit from the sale and the people get to keep what they want.
True. Personally, I'd prefer to see the Beeb converted into a mutual owned by its licence-fee payers / subscribers in the future, rather than to sell it off to independent share-holders.
However, your main point I largely agree with. I wouldn't have a problem with the Beeb keeping the recipes site under their control but it's symptomatic of their thinking that it's a cost to be cut rather than an asset to be worked for profit.
The BBC had the Good Food magazine didn't it - owned by BBC Worldwide. Is that still going? That's the natural home for such content.
Put simply, they cannot take their party back until their party is ready for them to take it back - and it won't be ready until Corbyn and his kind are discredited. That might happen before 2020; chances are it will be afterwards. The Labour right also need a figure they can rally around. Blair had already proved himself under Kinnock and Smith. At present, there is no such figure. Unfortunately, the difficulty is that it'll be almost impossible for anyone on Labour's right to distinguish themselves at present: either they'll be tied to Corbyn or they'll be disloyal to him. How do you square that circle?
What isn't an option is breaking away. There might be a large block in parliament who'd follow given the right conditions but those conditions won't be there. The unions won't defect, not all that many members would (going on both the experience of the SDP and the 2015 leadership vote). Would voters? There's no love for Corbyn, for the Lib Dems, for UKIP or the Tories among centrist floating voters, so there is a pool to fish in but again, we go back to the questions of what the positive vision of an SDP2 would be, and who would front its message.
I think that's correct, and Alastair's piece sums it up very well. Haven't read the whole thread so not sure if today's poll has been quoted:
Bottom line: members voted for Corbyn because they felt he offered an interesting alternative to the Tories, which is why they joined the party, and nobody else seemed to be doing so, and that remains the case. They are I think open in principle to accepting McDonnell, who is more clubbable, fluent and a traditional politician in both good and bad senses, but only if Jeremy stood down voluntarily, and I'm not convinced the polling difference would be huge, or that right/moderate critics would feel it had advanced matters.
I think that a chunk of members are intellectually interested in alternative ideas IF they aren't coupled with coded attacks on the leadership, and Corbyn is both explicitly and in practice fine with that. It's a cart and horse thing. If X seemed fizzing with interesting concepts that really engaged people, and X then decided to challenge for the leadership, he might have a shot at it. But if X starts by attacking the leadership, most of us just say "STFU, come back when you've something constructive to suggest". Merely saying "I could maybe beat the Tories and do something better" is really not an interesting offer.
New TNS poll see sharp move to LEAVE Remain 38 (-1), Leave 41% (+5), DK 21% (-5)
Christ. My heart can't take much more of this.
TNS is one of the few online polls to have Remain ahead, so this might be a reversion to the mean for online pollsters.
As ever with shifts this large, we need to see other polls, so far, it appears to be an outlier, we should be getting the Ipsos Mori poll tomorrow and a ComRes phone some time this week, so we can judge properly then.
I have to say if you had wanted a set of polls that was designed to spread yet more confusion you couldn't have asked for a better set than the ICM, ORB and TNS polls of the last 24 hours. Who the hell can make any conclusions from them?
Tea leaves Richard and look at the data that best suits you
I know a leaver who this morning is convinced Remain are going to win because Farage is already planning for a second referendum.
Yes, but you only ever support anecdotes and information here that supports the Remain case, and you are actively campaigning for Remain.
In the interests of balance would you care to share anything that doesn't paint a rosy picture for Remain?
If so, have you got your postal/proxy vote sorted out for this referendum?
Yeah but I'm thinking about abstaining as I feel a bit guilty voting from overseas (even if I may come back sometime next year). Also I haven't got a clue how I'd vote...
If in doubt, vote for the status quo.
Plus you're as British as English Tea, you should have no worries about voting whilst overseas.
There is no status quo on offer.
That's the message Leave should hammer home.
40 years ago you voted for an Economic Trading block, today you're voting for a European Union, who knows what you'll be voting for in 40 years time
Comments
Given the political trajectory the EU is on, and its economic dysfunctionality, there is no way this issue will go away.
Edit - Nope, I was mistaken. Although it does make the original quote look a bit awkward.
So no more unnecessary blockquotes.
They assimilated the Freikorps, who were assembled to fight against Communism and crush the trade union/Spartacist movement.
They included among their members many former senior army officers, including Goering, who joined because they disliked Jews and Communists.
They were obsessed with the amassing of personal wealth and the nihilist ideas of Nietsche and Darwinism.
That sounds right wing to me.
Try Evans, The Coming of the Third Reich, for more information.
A proper renegotiation followed by a serious choice between LEAVE and the best deal we could get to REMAIN.
And I now see the BBC even quotes the Chancellor: Last year, Chancellor George Osborne said the BBC website was becoming "a bit more imperial in its ambitions".
"If you've got a website that's got features and cooking recipes - effectively the BBC website becomes the national newspaper as well as the national broadcaster.
"There are those sorts of issues we need to look at very carefully," he said.
But other being wrong on every aspect, not a bad effort....
On "academic verities" my personal opinions may well be wrong - I am sure that smarter people that me will argue about these things for a long time. I was just making the point that the left is very happy to equate fascism = right wing for their political advantage [e.g. the anti fascist league seems to exclusively square off against the BNP/EL etc but ignores equally nasty organisations that are perceived as not being "on the right"], while the mass media doesn't think too hard about whether that is correct or not.
https://twitter.com/Mike_Fabricant/status/731564626454953984
And in terms of savings, wiping some recipes off the net doesn't save any money. In fact it probably costs money to action that, especially with all the red tape that is the BBC.
As I said down thread it is like the closing all the public bogs move. It is just designed to get publicity, nothing more. If they were serious about saving money or new remits, there are is far more major reforms, but instead it is get the MumsNet crowd pissed move instead.
Presumably, the BBC has decided that offering recipes does not fit the remit the Culture Secretary has stated he believes it should fulfil.
Remain 24 points ahead on Mobiles, 4 behind on landlines.
Presumably, though, mobile usage is heavily weighted to young/more affluent so plays strongly to the Remain backing groups?
I think we've been here before dozens of times with threads saying "EU isn't important says MORI"
(It means 'preformatted')
Remain 38 (-1), Leave 41% (+5), DK 21% (-5)
In comparison when Sky have the rights to something, they make their team do the reports for Sky News, Sky Sports News, Sky Sports pre show, the actual show, post show, operate the technology etc etc etc.
...drat, no luck.
‘Hard-up’ BBC blows £8m on odd puppet art website
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6650688/BBC-blows-8m-on-weird-art-website.html
BBC admits wasting £98MILLION of licence fee payers' cash on scrapped digital scheme
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bbc-admits-wasting-98million-licence-1909824
THE free-spending culture in the corridors of power at the BBC has wasted almost £350million of licence fee payers’ money on excessive pay-offs for departing executives, lavish relocation packages and a failed digital scheme.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/417958/Do-not-adjust-your-set-BBC-did-waste-350m
Ironically, the hysterics of the REMAIN side will increase this process. They used to tell us it wasn't terribly important and we shouldn't fuss about it. It will be rather hard to go back to that formula now.
Smartphones have become the hub of our daily lives and are now in the pockets of two thirds (66%) of UK adults, up from 39% in 2012. The vast majority (90%) of 16-24 year olds own one; but 55-64 year olds are also joining the smartphone revolution, with ownership in this age group more than doubling since 2012, from 19% to 50%.
On the basis of the things I witness, I also see younger people as much more active users of their mobiles/smartphones than older generations.
As ever with shifts this large, we need to see other polls, so far, it appears to be an outlier, we should be getting the Ipsos Mori poll tomorrow and a ComRes phone some time this week, so we can judge properly then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UK_EU_referendum_polling.svg
If so, have you got your postal/proxy vote sorted out for this referendum?
So before the ORB and ICM polls.
"Given the political trajectory the EU is on, and its economic dysfunctionality, there is no way this issue will go away."
Quite right and if Remain wins the vote it does not mean that those who believe that the UK would be a better to place if it left the EU will suddenly change their beliefs.
I became convinced that the EU was bad for the UK at the time of the Maastricht Treaty, a very minority view at that time, and since then I have been quietly and gently arguing my point at every suitable opportunity. Now, it would seem that my view is mainstream if not actually a majority one. If remain wins I'll carry on as I have been for the past 20-odd years and I expect that they stupidities of the EU hierarchy will win more people over to the Better Off Out position over the next few years.
Leave aside, if you will, the ideological Europhiles, there are I think a significant number of people who don't like the EU but on balance think the economic benefits of staying in outweigh the negative aspects and the unknowns of voting to leave. Over the coming years that number will gradually reduce as the EU becomes ever more intrusive and economically scroletic. That will lead to a majority wishing to leave, the issue will not be settled by this referendum.
My experience? The under 35s in London and the south-east are overwhelmingly for Remain.
I went on an "AB" stag-do of 14 at the weekend and I was one of only two Leavers, the other only confessing to me in whispers that Obama's intervention had tipped him over the edge. When I confessed to being a strong Leaver I got looks as if I had just confessed to multiple bestial relations with everyone's pet dog.
However, the one other Leaver did become much more audible later on when a bit more alcohol had been consumed and he found out the UK result in the Eurovision Song Contest in the minibus on the way home.
Interestingly, there was one Remainer who was moving to undecided because he felt he'd only heard one side of the argument.
I know a leaver who this morning is convinced Remain are going to win because Farage is already planning for a second referendum.
Corbyn Doing Well (net) (vs Nov 15)
OA: +45 (+11)
Corbyn doing well (net)
Labour Party Member:
Before GE2015: +24
After GE 2015: +70
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/1u5r7s2duv/TimesResults_160511_LabourMembers_W.pdf
However, your main point I largely agree with. I wouldn't have a problem with the Beeb keeping the recipes site under their control but it's symptomatic of their thinking that it's a cost to be cut rather than an asset to be worked for profit.
Plus you're as British as English Tea, you should have no worries about voting whilst overseas.
Do you think that Labour currently is or is not on course to be in Government after the General Election in 2020? (net on course)
Labour Party Member:
Before GE2015: -13
After GE 2015: +40
How likely or unlikely do you think it is that Jeremy Corbyn will ever become Prime Minister? (net likely)
Labour Party Member:
Before GE2015: -22
After GE 2015: +25
wait, that's not right...
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/corbyn-in-strongest-position-yet-as-members-believe-he-is-headed-for-downing-street/
Bottom line: members voted for Corbyn because they felt he offered an interesting alternative to the Tories, which is why they joined the party, and nobody else seemed to be doing so, and that remains the case. They are I think open in principle to accepting McDonnell, who is more clubbable, fluent and a traditional politician in both good and bad senses, but only if Jeremy stood down voluntarily, and I'm not convinced the polling difference would be huge, or that right/moderate critics would feel it had advanced matters.
I think that a chunk of members are intellectually interested in alternative ideas IF they aren't coupled with coded attacks on the leadership, and Corbyn is both explicitly and in practice fine with that. It's a cart and horse thing. If X seemed fizzing with interesting concepts that really engaged people, and X then decided to challenge for the leadership, he might have a shot at it. But if X starts by attacking the leadership, most of us just say "STFU, come back when you've something constructive to suggest". Merely saying "I could maybe beat the Tories and do something better" is really not an interesting offer.
In the interests of balance would you care to share anything that doesn't paint a rosy picture for Remain?
40 years ago you voted for an Economic Trading block, today you're voting for a European Union, who knows what you'll be voting for in 40 years time