What's the point of having an officially-designated campaign if it can't choose who represents it in the debates?
What's the point of having a private entertainment company if they can't pick and choose their own content?
They can choose not to show it if they think it would be commercially disadvantageous. They shouldn't get to pick the participants fielded by each side any more than they get to tell Claudio Ranieri and Arsene Wenger who to play in goal in a match they happen to televise.
REMAINers hate him because the people might get the answer wrong so shouldn't have been asked in the first place.
LEAVErs hate him (despite giving them the first vote in 40 years), well, because
...he said he was prepared to recommend leaving and only wanted to stay in a reformed EU, and then having failed to get any meaningful reform is campaigning to Remain on pain of apocalypse whilst doing everything in his power to rig the referendum for Remain.
If he hadn't done any one of those, he wouldn't be hated anywhere near as much. Saying he can't win, whilst accurate, doesn't really reflect that it's his own fault. Nobody but him has painted him into this corner.
Well quite. This is what's so bizarre - it's all self-inflicted and he's doubling down on it again and again.
40 days to go and cupboard is getting bare as authority figures are wheeled out one after the other. I saw a direct threat aimed at Gibraltar yesterday. Apparently they'll be invaded by Spain. @GeoffM noted that the island was most likely to come out strongly for Remain anyway - so this is clearly a tactic to cement them in place.
I can remember how I voted at every General and Holyrood election except for 2001. It is frustrating the hell out of me.
I gave New Labour the benefit of the doubt, and I was developing a few doubts by then. Given the choice of Blair pre Iraq and Hague it wasn't a difficult decision.
Those of us with intellect, foresight and moral fibre always knew new labour were wicked.
Still without Blair there would be no Invictus Games and our Paralympics team would be a shadow of its current strength.
REMAINers hate him because the people might get the answer wrong so shouldn't have been asked in the first place.
LEAVErs hate him (despite giving them the first vote in 40 years), well, because
...he said he was prepared to recommend leaving and only wanted to stay in a reformed EU, and then having failed to get any meaningful reform is campaigning to Remain on pain of apocalypse whilst doing everything in his power to rig the referendum for Remain.
If he hadn't done any one of those, he wouldn't be hated anywhere near as much. Saying he can't win, whilst accurate, doesn't really reflect that it's his own fault. Nobody but him has painted him into this corner.
Well quite. This is what's so bizarre - it's all self-inflicted and he's doubling down on it again and again.
40 days to go and cupboard is getting bare as authority figures are wheeled out one after the other. I saw a direct threat aimed at Gibraltar yesterday. Apparently they'll be invaded by Spain. @GeoffM noted that the island was most likely to come out strongly for Remain anyway - so this is clearly a tactic to cement them in place.
I can remember how I voted at every General and Holyrood election except for 2001. It is frustrating the hell out of me.
I gave New Labour the benefit of the doubt, and I was developing a few doubts by then. Given the choice of Blair pre Iraq and Hague it wasn't a difficult decision.
Those of us with intellect, foresight and moral fibre always knew new labour were wicked.
Still without Blair there would be no Invictus Games and our Paralympics team would be a shadow of its current strength.
He'll be remembered as the PM who took the UK out of Europe: scorned on all sides at home and abroad. What a legacy.
Unless it's a raging success, of course...
The last time we took a big step back from the EU, when we left the ERM, was the firing of the starting gun on a 15 year economic boom. Why would leaving the EU itself not be capable of producing a similar result for the next 15 years?
Well produced piece, but one point. Is English the most widely spoken lanuage? Might be in commerce, but I thought that on a purely numbers basis it was second or third.
Leave need to get people like Gisela Stuart much more prominent. At the moment this still looks like an internal Tory party row and the objections to UKIP making a contribution hardly help this.
If Leave are to win they need to win a significant share of Labour supporters. Apart from IDS pointing out that uncontrolled immigration damages the less well off in society they seem to me to be largely ignored and IDS is just never going to appeal to that electorate even if he is right.
Leave simply cannot win this with the more right wing half of the Tories +UKIP. It is nowhere near enough and they should be paying a lot more attention to that in the selection of spokespeople than they seem to be at the moment.
I agree the path to victory is through the Labour vote.
Maybe we should take Cameron's threat of war more seriously.
The Ukrainians said no to the EU and it ended up in the CIA overthrowing their elected government in a violent and bloody coup, preselected placemen installed and a government waging war on its own people.
Perhaps they will even shoot down an airliner and blame it on vote leave?
So we can add ITV to Leave's Adrian Mole list of enemies. Since Leavers already regard the BBC as profoundly unreliable, does that mean that Sky are the only broadcaster that Leavers can trust?
Thank goodness for reliable news sources like the Express.
What's the point of having an officially-designated campaign if it can't choose who represents it in the debates?
It's not an unreasonable point, but I share the view of some others that they have overreacted to it. I don't think it will hurt them really, but I cannot see what will be gained, particularly as it should be pretty easy for farage to be perceived as the winner of any such event.
Cameron will be dreading an incredulous audience reaction to one of his claims like ed m and denial of overspending (although a report after the ge explained he had a much better answer prepared which explained things and ended with a summary of no - he seems to have mixed up the order on the night)
Well produced piece, but one point. Is English the most widely spoken lanuage? Might be in commerce, but I thought that on a purely numbers basis it was second or third.
Mandarin is spoken by more people, but they are pretty much all in China.
I would like to see LD representation in these shows (they do not appear to be debates in the proper sense). The LDs had a projected national vote share last week ahead of UKIP.
My primary concern is that an EU debate which is mainly about squabbles within the Conservative party doesn't do the subject justice. Most Remainers are not Conservative voters.
Exactly so, Dr Fox. The problem is that we have two official sides in this referendum, both headed by prominent Conservatives. So the arguments they use are ones that appeal to Conservative voters. Whether the EU Parliament is more or less democratic than Westminster (it could hardly be less representative). And whether being in or out of the EU is more beneficial for the interests of big business.
And both sides use the tactics of fear and panic which are now the characteristics of Conservative campaigning.
Plus trying to rig the whole thing by unscrupulous means, so that they get the result they want. Dog eats dog.
This referendum will resolve nothing, until both sides start to discuss the sort of EU that we would like it to become. Cameron could have given some leadership on this, with his "negotiations". Instead, he just took part in a charade. As a leader, the man is a dismal failure. And I am inclined to vote against him. This will not, of course, be a vote for Farage and all his nonsense.
Well produced piece, but one point. Is English the most widely spoken lanuage? Might be in commerce, but I thought that on a purely numbers basis it was second or third.
As a first language, sure, but I thought as a second language puts English over the top?
Well produced piece, but one point. Is English the most widely spoken language? Might be in commerce, but I thought that on a purely numbers basis it was second or third.
Mandarin and spanish beat it as a 1st language - but barely anyone speaks mandarin as a second language !
I'd have thought English is the most useful language in the world for sure.
Agree OGH, Dominic Cummings and Vote Leave seem embarrassed about needing 'the great unwashed' voters of UKIP and the boorish Farage to get a Leave vote, they would far rather just appeal to Tory voters and a few Labour supporters (preferably brighter ones like Gisela Stewart) if they could. In that sense the GO campaign has built a broader campaign encompassing Tories, Kippers, Labour voters and even George Galloway.
Miss Plato, because it's better to spend energy fighting Remain than infighting [I don't think there's a prospect of changing Farage].
Not unlike when Septimius Severus had rivals for the purple in Albinus and Niger. He allied with Albinus, defeated Niger in battle, and *then* destroyed Albinus.
I can remember how I voted at every General and Holyrood election except for 2001. It is frustrating the hell out of me.
I gave New Labour the benefit of the doubt, and I was developing a few doubts by then. Given the choice of Blair pre Iraq and Hague it wasn't a difficult decision.
I could have sworn I've never voted Labour but the Lib Dems had disappointed me after I voted for them in the 1999 Holyrood election so I do not have a Scooby who I went for in 2001.
He'll be remembered as the PM who took the UK out of Europe: scorned on all sides at home and abroad. What a legacy.
Unless it's a raging success, of course...
The last time we took a big step back from the EU, when we left the ERM, was the firing of the starting gun on a 15 year economic boom. Why would leaving the EU itself not be capable of producing a similar result for the next 15 years?
Well, John Major deserves credit for not signing us up to the Euro, and for at least recognising the ERM game was up.
Whether we vote Leave now, or at some point in the future, the events of 1992 were the turning point.
Allison Pearson's column in the Telegraph is worth a read today.
"When your figures are a million men down, and more, it’s time to man up in a serious way. The pattern of this referendum campaign so far is the Establishment telling the men and women of this country we are too stupid to understand what’s good for us.
Trust in the elites, folks, and vote Remain. If the latest figures say anything, however, it’s that the elites are not to be trusted. When it comes to uncontrolled immigration, they have played the biggest con-trick in living memory.
I am sure there are many eloquent words to describe this situation, but the three I find myself reaching for are absolute, bloody and disgrace."
I can remember how I voted at every General and Holyrood election except for 2001. It is frustrating the hell out of me.
I gave New Labour the benefit of the doubt, and I was developing a few doubts by then. Given the choice of Blair pre Iraq and Hague it wasn't a difficult decision.
I could have sworn I've never voted Labour but the Lib Dems had disappointed me after I voted for them in the 1999 Holyrood election so I do not have a Scooby who I went for in 2001.
Agree OGH, Dominic Cummings and Vote Leave seem embarrassed about needing 'the great unwashed' voters of UKIP and the boorish Farage to get a Leave vote, they would far rather just appeal to Tory voters and a few Labour supporters (preferably brighter ones like Gisela Stewart) if they could. In that sense the GO campaign has built a broader campaign encompassing Tories, Kippers, Labour voters and even George Galloway.
Political campaigners should be willing to accept that you take your support where you find it. You don't waste time searching for the ideal supporter, who only exists in Plato's Republic.
It seems LEAVE now view John Major as one of the "bastards" in Cameron's team ....
Talking of "bastards" is John Redwood going to sing to enhance the BREXIT campaign, perhaps something with a topical Eurovision Song Contest slant - "Making You Mind Up" - Vote Leave.
REMAINers hate him because the people might get the answer wrong so shouldn't have been asked in the first place.
LEAVErs hate him (despite giving them the first vote in 40 years), well, because
...he said he was prepared to recommend leaving and only wanted to stay in a reformed EU, and then having failed to get any meaningful reform is campaigning to Remain on pain of apocalypse whilst doing everything in his power to rig the referendum for Remain.
If he hadn't done any one of those, he wouldn't be hated anywhere near as much. Saying he can't win, whilst accurate, doesn't really reflect that it's his own fault. Nobody but him has painted him into this corner.
Well quite. This is what's so bizarre - it's all self-inflicted and he's doubling down on it again and again.
40 days to go and cupboard is getting bare as authority figures are wheeled out one after the other. I saw a direct threat aimed at Gibraltar yesterday. Apparently they'll be invaded by Spain. @GeoffM noted that the island was most likely to come out strongly for Remain anyway - so this is clearly a tactic to cement them in place.
When did Gibraltar become an island?
When the hot air from the "Remain" scare tactics caused the ice to melt and raise the sea-level so that the northern isthmus was submerged and the rest of the peninsula got cut off.
What's the point of having an officially-designated campaign if it can't choose who represents it in the debates?
It's not an unreasonable point, but I share the view of some others that they have overreacted to it.
They have.
But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have reacted at all.
Who said they shouldn't have reacted at all?
I think going to court doesn't help matters for them, but they could easily have kept broadly the same level of criticism if the decision, and that while they wish farage well against the PM it shows the PM is afraid to confront t the real campaign etc etc
Loads of the usual dodgy economic predictions, and now Edwina's toy boy comes out with a few social predictions. Leave could always retaliate with a ten years on broadcast. If you stay in the EU, this is what it will look like ...
I'm sure Roger could advise. One army, one parliament, a population of greyness, Waterloo and other stations renamed after famous European politicians we've never heard of.
Remain would go daft, but you have the words of prominent Eurocrats to display.
Agree OGH, Dominic Cummings and Vote Leave seem embarrassed about needing 'the great unwashed' voters of UKIP and the boorish Farage to get a Leave vote, they would far rather just appeal to Tory voters and a few Labour supporters (preferably brighter ones like Gisela Stewart) if they could. In that sense the GO campaign has built a broader campaign encompassing Tories, Kippers, Labour voters and even George Galloway.
Political campaigners should be willing to accept that you take your support where you find it. You don't waste time searching for the ideal supporter, who only exists in Plato's Republic.
I think Cummings probably has Plato's Republic as his bedtime reading, I doubt you could say the same for Farage
If you start attacking the messenger or the process it is a pretty good sign that one or all of these is happening:-
1. You have no message. 2. Your message is crap. 3. You're panicking.
Either way it is a distraction. And it impresses no-one and turns off those who might have some sympathy for your cause.
Every moment Vote Leave spends threatening No. 10 or ITV or some other person on their own side or attacking those who are making arguments on the Remain side is a moment not spent on trying to persuade the voters of the merits of the Leave case.
This point should be uncontroversial and should be tattooed on the foreheads of everyone on the Leave side.
Why they can't understand it and insist on behaving like toddlers having a tantrum at a party beats me.
Another six weeks of this is frankly too much to bear.
In all the furore about the EU Ref we are ignoring the fact that several major countries in the EU are suffering from internal strife that in some cases are leading to civil disorder..The entire structure is about to collapse..it will do so in extreme slow motion but its destination is unavoidable.. it will be on the floor within the next decade..whether we choose to remain or leave..In those circumstances we should consider our future now..An early exit and a clean break..or being dragged into the inevitable economic firestorm..A Rock and a Hard place.
If you start attacking the messenger or the process it is a pretty good sign that one or all of these is happening:-
1. You have no message. 2. Your message is crap. 3. You're panicking.
Either way it is a distraction. And it impresses no-one and turns off those who might have some sympathy for your cause.
Every moment Vote Leave spends threatening No. 10 or ITV or some other person on their own side or attacking those who are making arguments on the Remain side is a moment not spent on trying to persuade the voters of the merits of the Leave case.
This point should be uncontroversial and should be tattooed on the foreheads of everyone on the Leave side.
Why they can't understand it and insist on behaving like toddlers having a tantrum at a party beats me.
Another six weeks of this is frankly too much to bear.
A good day to all.
It's going to be hell. And I do share frustration with the Leave campaigns sometimes. I personally think they have by far the best arguments, which are simple and sellable to the public to boot, and there's too much complaining about process and whinging about minor crap. It's not necessary to the extent it occurs - some needed, sure, but it drowns out more relevant points sometimes.
I can remember how I voted at every General and Holyrood election except for 2001. It is frustrating the hell out of me.
I gave New Labour the benefit of the doubt, and I was developing a few doubts by then. Given the choice of Blair pre Iraq and Hague it wasn't a difficult decision.
I voted for Hague in 2001 and Clegg in 2015, not a very common pattern I expect!
I seriously can't believe what Remain are doing - it's so incredibly damaging to their own Party.
No
The only people damaging their Party are (by and large) the same Bastards who tried it in the 90s
The closet Kippers on the Tory backbenches hate Cameron much more than Brussels, and they are quite prepared to destroy the party to take down the man
They seem to be jealous. He is a proven winner, whereas their champions have all been serial losers
There are such people in leave, but it's a mistake to think they are the whole - it's a mistake Leave make sometimes too - as just on here we see former Cameroons siding with leave for instance. Those closet kippers, and I do think there are some if they had had the guts to do what Carswell did, were voting leave anyway and will no matter what. It's the rest who should be focused on and will swing this.
Channel 4 have done a massive job of uncovering Tory expenses suggesting "large-scale and systematic abuse of election rules by the Conservative Party in last year's General Election and three key by-elections in 2014" It looks like 29 winning Tories may be on the slippery slope. UKIP and The Lib-Dems have a genuine grievance.
Channel 4 have done a massive job of uncovering Tory expenses suggesting "large-scale and systematic abuse of election rules by the Conservative Party in last year's General Election and three key by-elections in 2014" It looks like 29 winning Tories may be on the slippery slope. UKIP and The Lib-Dems have a genuine grievance.
Agree re Gisela - and more Frank Field. IDS despite being very sincere is totally wrong as a frontman. Labour look at him and come over all Bedroom Tax!!!! Playing Scrooge for 6yrs has typecast him.
Yes, but Frank is too introspective and isolated to influence most Labour voters. Gisela has more of the natural outreach, but both of them suffer from being Tories' favourite Labour people, in the same way that many Labour voters like Ken Clarke or even Anna Soubry more than many Tories do. I think Leave needs a left-winger who can credibly denounce TTIP and big business - Kelvin Hopkins would be effective.
Meanwhile, an admission that's music to our Corbynite ears:
I've never thought that the BBC was especially left or right wing, but it has two roots, the middle-of-the-road urban establishment and the London media. Anti-establishment movements who don't follow normal media rules have a tough time, whether it's Momentum or UKIP or religious puritans.
If you start attacking the messenger or the process it is a pretty good sign that one or all of these is happening:-
1. You have no message. 2. Your message is crap. 3. You're panicking.
Either way it is a distraction. And it impresses no-one and turns off those who might have some sympathy for your cause.
Every moment Vote Leave spends threatening No. 10 or ITV or some other person on their own side or attacking those who are making arguments on the Remain side is a moment not spent on trying to persuade the voters of the merits of the Leave case.
This point should be uncontroversial and should be tattooed on the foreheads of everyone on the Leave side.
Why they can't understand it and insist on behaving like toddlers having a tantrum at a party beats me.
Another six weeks of this is frankly too much to bear.
A good day to all.
I must admit to smirking at the behaviour of Vote Leave. Having spent months portraying themselves as the grown-ups their reaction to the decision of ITV to pick Nigel Farage has been amusing.
Personally I think it's a brave decision by Cameron to allow Farage to be on the Q&A programme, but I guess it isn't a head to head. I suspect the main motivation for this was that the Remain camp knew exactly how Vote Leave would react and to that extent Vote Leave have played into their hands perfectly.
I can remember how I voted at every General and Holyrood election except for 2001. It is frustrating the hell out of me.
I gave New Labour the benefit of the doubt, and I was developing a few doubts by then. Given the choice of Blair pre Iraq and Hague it wasn't a difficult decision.
I voted for Hague in 2001 and Clegg in 2015, not a very common pattern I expect!
I voted for Blair in 2001, gave him the benefit of the doubt that Labour could be sensible spenders - just before the spending taps got turned on floodgates got opened!
If you start attacking the messenger or the process it is a pretty good sign that one or all of these is happening:-
1. You have no message. 2. Your message is crap. 3. You're panicking.
Either way it is a distraction. And it impresses no-one and turns off those who might have some sympathy for your cause.
Every moment Vote Leave spends threatening No. 10 or ITV or some other person on their own side or attacking those who are making arguments on the Remain side is a moment not spent on trying to persuade the voters of the merits of the Leave case.
This point should be uncontroversial and should be tattooed on the foreheads of everyone on the Leave side.
Why they can't understand it and insist on behaving like toddlers having a tantrum at a party beats me.
Another six weeks of this is frankly too much to bear.
A good day to all.
I must admit to smirking at the behaviour of Vote Leave. Having spent months portraying themselves as the grown-ups their reaction to the decision of ITV to pick Nigel Farage has been amusing.
Personally I think it's a brave decision by Cameron to allow Farage to be on the Q&A programme, but I guess it isn't a head to head. I suspect the main motivation for this was that the Remain camp knew exactly how Vote Leave would react and to that extent Vote Leave have played into their hands perfectly.
Why should the remain camp be picking their opponent?
He'll be remembered as the PM who took the UK out of Europe: scorned on all sides at home and abroad. What a legacy.
Unless it's a raging success, of course...
The last time we took a big step back from the EU, when we left the ERM, was the firing of the starting gun on a 15 year economic boom. Why would leaving the EU itself not be capable of producing a similar result for the next 15 years?
Well, John Major deserves credit for not signing us up to the Euro, and for at least recognising the ERM game was up.
Whether we vote Leave now, or at some point in the future, the events of 1992 were the turning point.
That's fair. He also got us out of the social chapter (at least at first) and achieved more in his negotiations than Cameron.
It is interesting to spectulate just what might have happened if Kinnock had won in April 1992 and decided to remove the EMU opt-out and give it a go.
As in 1975, the Establishment are fully in favour and intend to dominate and control the discussions, wheeling out the big guns to warn of gloom and despondency. Some are effective, but some are less so.
Farron vs Farage would be an interesting confrontation, but one we'll never see. It's about controlling the terms of the debate and there's no point fighting the Establishment on this matter. That's where the Labour voters might be important. "Are you an Establishment lickspittle?" could be an interesting question to ask them. "Are you doing what your betters are ordering?"
As in 1975, the Establishment are fully in favour and intend to dominate and control the discussions, wheeling out the big guns to warn of gloom and despondency. Some are effective, but some are less so.
Farron vs Farage would be an interesting confrontation, but one we'll never see. It's about controlling the terms of the debate and there's no point fighting the Establishment on this matter. That's where the Labour voters might be important. "Are you an Establishment lickspittle?" could be an interesting question to ask them. "Are you doing what your betters are ordering?"
Since when are newspaper proprietors, their editors, cabinet ministers and City billionaires not part of the Establishment?
What's the point of having an officially-designated campaign if it can't choose who represents it in the debates?
It's not an unreasonable point, but I share the view of some others that they have overreacted to it.
They have.
But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have reacted at all.
Who said they shouldn't have reacted at all?
Smithson in the header.
I dont get that reading unless my eyes are skipping over something. It argues their reaction has been wrong, but that doesn't follow they should not have reacted at all
Channel 4 have done a massive job of uncovering Tory expenses suggesting "large-scale and systematic abuse of election rules by the Conservative Party in last year's General Election and three key by-elections in 2014" It looks like 29 winning Tories may be on the slippery slope. UKIP and The Lib-Dems have a genuine grievance.
Channel 4 have done a massive job of uncovering Tory expenses suggesting "large-scale and systematic abuse of election rules by the Conservative Party in last year's General Election and three key by-elections in 2014" It looks like 29 winning Tories may be on the slippery slope. UKIP and The Lib-Dems have a genuine grievance.
I can remember how I voted at every General and Holyrood election except for 2001. It is frustrating the hell out of me.
I gave New Labour the benefit of the doubt, and I was developing a few doubts by then. Given the choice of Blair pre Iraq and Hague it wasn't a difficult decision.
I voted for Hague in 2001 and Clegg in 2015, not a very common pattern I expect!
Me too.
Well 2001 was more because one local candidate was crap and 2015 by the fact both major local candidates were crap, but it comes to the same thing.
1997 too young, would have voted Labour 2001 Conservative 2005 Green 2010 Conservative 2012by Labour 2015 Lib Dem.
As in 1975, the Establishment are fully in favour and intend to dominate and control the discussions, wheeling out the big guns to warn of gloom and despondency. Some are effective, but some are less so.
Farron vs Farage would be an interesting confrontation, but one we'll never see. It's about controlling the terms of the debate and there's no point fighting the Establishment on this matter. That's where the Labour voters might be important. "Are you an Establishment lickspittle?" could be an interesting question to ask them. "Are you doing what your betters are ordering?"
Since when are newspaper proprietors, their editors, cabinet ministers and City billionaires not part of the Establishment?
When they are your side. See also 'mainstream media' for media one dislikes.
What's the point of having an officially-designated campaign if it can't choose who represents it in the debates?
It's not an unreasonable point, but I share the view of some others that they have overreacted to it.
They have.
But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have reacted at all.
IMO, only by reacting so strongly did the issue get airtime, and will almost certainly force a change. TV companies can't pick and choose who represents Leave here. It's fundamentally wrong as we've an official organisation. The Electoral Commission should tell them to bugger off.
Judging by the BBC write up, doesn't seem as likely to cause a legal problem than the channel 4 investigations.
"Susan, don't risk everything we have achieved over the last five years. the only way you can stop Ed Milliband and the SNP taking us back to square one is to vote Conservative here in Torbay Yours sincerely David Cameron"
A Conservative spokesman said: "Simply referring to the location where the elector lives does not promote any named candidate." "The literature only promoted the national Conservative Party."
The schedule to me looks too much like the David Cameron show. The majority of support for Remain comes from outside the Conservative party.
I am not convinced that much of it will be worth watching.
I expect it'll be reasonably entertaining TV, but yes, the schedule raises more questions than it answers. The Tories are pretty polarised on this; Labour is on the whole not, but Labour voters aren't sure whether to get involved at all, so Remain needs to make sure that both Corbyn and Alan Johnson OR Sadiq Khan get into the schedule - each of them appeals to a different segment of the Labour electorate so they're both needed in there.
If Remain does lose, Cameron will have no-one to blame but himself. He'll be remembered as the PM who took the UK out of Europe: scorned on all sides at home and abroad. What a legacy.
Alternatively, he had the courage to ask the British people what they thought, and acted on the answer.....
Why would he be scorned for respecting the will of the people?
He is already alienating large numbers of Tories. If you believe the warnings about Brexit he'll also be scorned for failing to prevent it, having precipitated it only to buy some time with internal party critics.
Yes, but why is seeking, then respecting, the will of the people something worthy of scorn?
What is already worthy of scorn is Cameron's willingness to risk so much - according to him, the governor of the Bank of England and so many others - in order to prevent a leakage of a few votes to UKIP. Should he end up on the losing side, his inability to persuade the electorate that his warnings were credible will also be worthy of scorn. And scorn he will get - on all sides and from all parts the world. He will be remembered for failing.
As in 1975, the Establishment are fully in favour and intend to dominate and control the discussions, wheeling out the big guns to warn of gloom and despondency. Some are effective, but some are less so.
Farron vs Farage would be an interesting confrontation, but one we'll never see. It's about controlling the terms of the debate and there's no point fighting the Establishment on this matter. That's where the Labour voters might be important. "Are you an Establishment lickspittle?" could be an interesting question to ask them. "Are you doing what your betters are ordering?"
Since when are newspaper proprietors, their editors, cabinet ministers and City billionaires not part of the Establishment?
Since they said so. And we'd better believe them, if we know what's good for us.
I am not an expert on the right, it is true, but I am struggling to see what differentiates Tory supporters of Brexit from UKIP ones. Where are their main areas of disagreement? What - apart from personality issues - would prevent them being one party?
If you start attacking the messenger or the process it is a pretty good sign that one or all of these is happening:-
1. You have no message. 2. Your message is crap. 3. You're panicking.
Either way it is a distraction. And it impresses no-one and turns off those who might have some sympathy for your cause.
Every moment Vote Leave spends threatening No. 10 or ITV or some other person on their own side or attacking those who are making arguments on the Remain side is a moment not spent on trying to persuade the voters of the merits of the Leave case.
This point should be uncontroversial and should be tattooed on the foreheads of everyone on the Leave side.
Why they can't understand it and insist on behaving like toddlers having a tantrum at a party beats me.
Another six weeks of this is frankly too much to bear.
A good day to all.
I must admit to smirking at the behaviour of Vote Leave. Having spent months portraying themselves as the grown-ups their reaction to the decision of ITV to pick Nigel Farage has been amusing.
Personally I think it's a brave decision by Cameron to allow Farage to be on the Q&A programme, but I guess it isn't a head to head. I suspect the main motivation for this was that the Remain camp knew exactly how Vote Leave would react and to that extent Vote Leave have played into their hands perfectly.
Why should the remain camp be picking their opponent?
Well, they shouldn't - but can ITV be forced to broadcast a show without the PM?
Judging by the BBC write up, doesn't seem as likely to cause a legal problem than the channel 4 investigations.
"Susan, don't risk everything we have achieved over the last five years. the only way you can stop Ed Milliband and the SNP taking us back to square one is to vote Conservative here in Torbay Yours sincerely David Cameron"
A Conservative spokesman said: "Simply referring to the location where the elector lives does not promote any named candidate." "The literature only promoted the national Conservative Party."
I read it. A labour Cllr QC said the case was strong, but the quotes from the electoral commission, while not saying it could not be serious, made it seem less likely than all the battle bus stuff. Still looks wrong, but not as clearly.
And since the Nats have been sitting on the sidelines, here's one from their favourite blogger:
The problem for the SNP is that they’re a one-trick pony. Their electoral success shows that it’s been very good trick, but if you try to repeat any trick too often people eventually work out how it’s done and the magic is ruined. This particular trick only works if you have a credible economic case for independence, and that simply doesn’t exist.
He'll be remembered as the PM who took the UK out of Europe: scorned on all sides at home and abroad. What a legacy.
Unless it's a raging success, of course...
The last time we took a big step back from the EU, when we left the ERM, was the firing of the starting gun on a 15 year economic boom. Why would leaving the EU itself not be capable of producing a similar result for the next 15 years?
Well, John Major deserves credit for not signing us up to the Euro, and for at least recognising the ERM game was up.
Does he? The only reason he "recognised" that the ERM game was up was because there was no choice. He did everything he possibly could to keep us in it, including shoving up interest rates to incredible levels, presiding over a mass house repossession crisis across middle England (paving the way to the Conservatives 1997 meltdown) and generally behaving like an utter fool for days on end when it was obvious to anybody with half a brain that we should leave the ERM.
As far as the Euro is concerned, the only reason this quisling little man didn't sign us up to that is because his Party and the Papers (which were much stronger then) would never have gone along with it. Do you seriously think that if this idiot had had his way he wouldn't have dumped us into the Euro?
John Major is an utter fool. He took his Party down to the worst defeat since the Duke Of Wellington... Why anybody would take any notice of him I have no idea.
The frontpages are horrible from the Sun, Telegraph and Mail...and the Express.
Those immigration stats are awful and manna for VoteLeave. A MILLION+ more than HMG claimed?!?! And 800k more from the EU alone
Cameron's tens of thousands manifesto commitment is looking more and more like a giant lie.
Those with National Insurance Numbers will theoretically be the scrupulous ones with scrupulous employers doing the law abiding thing.
There will be other perfectly legal EU migrants who have been entering the country who didn't bother to register and are working on the black market. Pop over for over six months, cash in hand, no tax, then back home.
Well in very broad terms, the Referendum is lining up UKIP voters and people who live in rural areas, and medium-sized towns and small cities in England and Wales, against liberal middle class voters, people who live in Greater London and core cities and Scots. It's why the Conservatives are so split on the issue. The first group are essential to get the Conservatives elected, but they aren't the sort of people that liberal Conservatives really feel comfortable with.
"Since when are newspaper proprietors, their editors, cabinet ministers and City billionaires not part of the Establishment?"
They generally are, unless you have a readership to placate. I've no doubt, they take advantage of their privileges otherwise.
But it's been a little fairer than 1975 so far. The BBC are pro-EU, but they make an effort to be balanced. It's a little like asking the DUP to be balanced about the Pope, so Leave shouldn't complain too much - the BBC are doing their best.
Labour are pursuing the right tactics, keeping their heads down and letting the Tories take the flak. Cynical and worthy of Stalin during the Warsaw encirclement.
Bojo is certainly the stand out winner from the referendum so far.
Farage effortlessly dispatched Clegg in the previous debate, and I expect even if he does badly people will just put that down to it being Farage. Bring it on.
Google announced on Thursday that it is open sourcing its new language parsing model called SyntaxNet. It's a piece of natural-language understanding software, Google says, that you can use automatically parse sentences, as part of its TensorFlow open source machine learning library. The company also announced that it is releasing something called Parsey McParseface (Google has a sense of humor), which is a pre-trained model for parsing English-language text.
He'll be remembered as the PM who took the UK out of Europe: scorned on all sides at home and abroad. What a legacy.
Unless it's a raging success, of course...
The last time we took a big step back from the EU, when we left the ERM, was the firing of the starting gun on a 15 year economic boom. Why would leaving the EU itself not be capable of producing a similar result for the next 15 years?
Well, John Major deserves credit for not signing us up to the Euro, and for at least recognising the ERM game was up.
Does he? The only reason he "recognised" that the ERM game was up was because there was no choice. He did everything he possibly could to keep us in it, including shoving up interest rates to incredible levels, presiding over a mass house repossession crisis across middle England (paving the way to the Conservatives 1997 meltdown) and generally behaving like an utter fool for days on end when it was obvious to anybody with half a brain that we should leave the ERM.
As far as the Euro is concerned, the only reason this quisling little man didn't sign us up to that is because his Party and the Papers (which were much stronger then) would never have gone along with it. Do you seriously think that if this idiot had had his way we wouldn't have been signed up to the Euro?
John Major is an utter fool. He took his Party down to the worst defeat since the Duke Of Wellington... Why anybody would take any notice of him I have no idea.
Well indeed. We had the radio on in the office when Black Wednesday was playing out - it was horrific listening. One of those Where Were You When moments.
Good morning all. So all us suckers will have to continue paying the TV license fee until 2027. So much for the much vaunted negotiations and changes to the BBC which help all the license payers up and down the country.
Rather like Cameron's cheap sell out to the EU. This Tory government can't help being weak when called upon to defend the British public, but strong when it comes to taking all the austerity measures they can to fill the ever emptying government coffers.
Well produced piece, but one point. Is English the most widely spoken lanuage? Might be in commerce, but I thought that on a purely numbers basis it was second or third.
Mandarin is spoken by more people, but they are pretty much all in China.
I doubt that is true anymore. It is true for first languages but many globally speak English as a second language just as well or better than many Brits speak it as a first. Go to the Netherlands and ask a young adult if they speak English and they will look at you like you have asked them if they are capable of crossing the road by themselves.
The schedule to me looks too much like the David Cameron show. The majority of support for Remain comes from outside the Conservative party.
I am not convinced that much of it will be worth watching.
I expect it'll be reasonably entertaining TV, but yes, the schedule raises more questions than it answers. The Tories are pretty polarised on this; Labour is on the whole not, but Labour voters aren't sure whether to get involved at all, so Remain needs to make sure that both Corbyn and Alan Johnson OR Sadiq Khan get into the schedule - each of them appeals to a different segment of the Labour electorate so they're both needed in there.
If Remain does lose, Cameron will have no-one to blame but himself. He'll be remembered as the PM who took the UK out of Europe: scorned on all sides at home and abroad. What a legacy.
Alternatively, he had the courage to ask the British people what they thought, and acted on the answer.....
Why would he be scorned for respecting the will of the people?
He is already alienating large numbers of Tories. If you believe the warnings about Brexit he'll also be scorned for failing to prevent it, having precipitated it only to buy some time with internal party critics.
Yes, but why is seeking, then respecting, the will of the people something worthy of scorn?
What is already worthy of scorn is Cameron's willingness to risk so much - according to him, the governor of the Bank of England and so many others - in order to prevent a leakage of a few votes to UKIP. Should he end up on the losing side, his inability to persuade the electorate that his warnings were credible will also be worthy of scorn. And scorn he will get - on all sides and from all parts the world. He will be remembered for failing.
He also thinks that a Labour government would be a catastrophe (although of course any right small r thinking person thinks this too).
I can see no reason why the Tory party leadership contenders shouldn't have a round robin contest so that members can see them in action when their mettle is tested.Osborne should put himself up against all comers if he is to come back from the dead.Here's his chance to shine again.Cameron can always delegate and Osborne is his favoured candidate. BTW Sir John Major is the clear star,prepared to go to places current Tory leaders fear to tread.
The frontpages are horrible from the Sun, Telegraph and Mail...and the Express.
Those immigration stats are awful and manna for VoteLeave. A MILLION+ more than HMG claimed?!?! And 800k more from the EU alone
Cameron's tens of thousands manifesto commitment is looking more and more like a giant lie.
Those with National Insurance Numbers will be the scrupulous ones with scrupulous employers, theoretically doing the law abiding thing.
There will of course be perfectly legal EU migrants who have been entering the country who didn't bother to register and are working on the black market, cash in hand. Pop over for over six months, cash in hand, no tax, then back home.
I wonder what the count is for this group?
Ask Cameron then multiply by 10.
I'm yet to see comments elsewhere saying anything other than We've Been Lied To, We Still Don't Believe You, What Else Are You Lying About?
The margin of error and the *explanation* simply aren't cutting it. And many are pointing out that the implications for infrastructure, housing, health, education et al aren't covered by those earning minimum wage or slightly above.
IIRC less than 50% of the population is a net contributor to the economy. It seems unlikely that those employed in mid-low skilled jobs will be in this category.
Well produced piece, but one point. Is English the most widely spoken lanuage? Might be in commerce, but I thought that on a purely numbers basis it was second or third.
Mandarin is spoken by more people, but they are pretty much all in China.
I doubt that is true anymore. It is true for first languages but many globally speak English as a second language just as well or better than many Brits speak it as a first. Go to the Netherlands and ask a young adult if they speak English and they will look at you like you have asked them if they are capable of crossing the road by themselves.
I recall a clip of the Latvian president where he used the word prognosticate, it made me feel very lazy for not even knowing enough of other languages to use basic words, let alone fairly uncommon expressions like that.
As in 1975, the Establishment are fully in favour and intend to dominate and control the discussions, wheeling out the big guns to warn of gloom and despondency. Some are effective, but some are less so.
Farron vs Farage would be an interesting confrontation, but one we'll never see. It's about controlling the terms of the debate and there's no point fighting the Establishment on this matter. That's where the Labour voters might be important. "Are you an Establishment lickspittle?" could be an interesting question to ask them. "Are you doing what your betters are ordering?"
Since when are newspaper proprietors, their editors, cabinet ministers and City billionaires not part of the Establishment?
Since they said so. And we'd better believe them, if we know what's good for us.
Yep, I am struggling with the notion that people like Lord Rothermere, Paul Dacre, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Peter Hargreaves are plucky outsiders railing against entrenched, vested interests.
Oddly enough, as I look through the broadcast schedule, the one thing there isn't a lot of is or are "debates". There are interviews and question-answering aplenty but not a lot of actual real, honest to goodness debate.
Cameron's refusal to debate with another Conservative is, as I said, clear as it automatically puts that other Conservative on an equal footing with the Prime Minister who, in terms of his own party, would no longer be primus, let alone primus inter pares. In effect, it would make that opposing speaker the leader-in-waiting in the eyes of the public and especially if he was perceived to have bested the Prime Minister in the debate.
The other problem is if Cameron ducked the debate and left it to Osborne or May, a strong performance by either of them would equally undermine Cameron who, after all, initiated the Referendum and who seems determined to stake his personal and political capital on being the leader of the winning REMAIN campaign.
If LEAVE can't use any of their Conservatives to debate Cameron, then it has to be Farage who at least has a modicum of recognition. Debating with a pro-LEAVE Labour figure of any significance risks it becoming a party political match (and a strong performance by that Labour figure would also be a risk to Corbyn) and there is no authoritative pro-LEAVE non-party figure out there so we come back to Nigel who has quite literally nothing and everything to lose.
IF Farage does well against Cameron, it enhances his political reputation once again - if he fails, LEAVE and in particular LEAVE Conservatives have a fall guy.
He'll be remembered as the PM who took the UK out of Europe: scorned on all sides at home and abroad. What a legacy.
Unless it's a raging success, of course...
The last time we took a big step back from the EU, when we left the ERM, was the firing of the starting gun on a 15 year economic boom. Why would leaving the EU itself not be capable of producing a similar result for the next 15 years?
Well, John Major deserves credit for not signing us up to the Euro, and for at least recognising the ERM game was up.
Does he? The only reason he "recognised" that the ERM game was up was because there was no choice. He did everything he possibly could to keep us in it, including shoving up interest rates to incredible levels, presiding over a mass house repossession crisis across middle England (paving the way to the Conservatives 1997 meltdown) and generally behaving like an utter fool for days on end when it was obvious to anybody with half a brain that we should leave the ERM.
As far as the Euro is concerned, the only reason this quisling little man didn't sign us up to that is because his Party and the Papers (which were much stronger then) would never have gone along with it. Do you seriously think that if this idiot had had his way we wouldn't have been signed up to the Euro?
John Major is an utter fool. He took his Party down to the worst defeat since the Duke Of Wellington... Why anybody would take any notice of him I have no idea.
Well indeed. We had the radio on in the office when Black Wednesday was playing out - it was horrific listening. One of those Where Were You When moments.
Well produced piece, but one point. Is English the most widely spoken lanuage? Might be in commerce, but I thought that on a purely numbers basis it was second or third.
Mandarin is spoken by more people, but they are pretty much all in China.
I doubt that is true anymore. It is true for first languages but many globally speak English as a second language just as well or better than many Brits speak it as a first. Go to the Netherlands and ask a young adult if they speak English and they will look at you like you have asked them if they are capable of crossing the road by themselves.
I recall a clip of the Latvian president where he used the word prognosticate, it made me feel very lazy for not even knowing enough of other languages to use basic words, let alone fairly uncommon expressions like that.
Ashraf Ghani was pretty damn articulate on the radio yesterday morning.
The deficit's still of Brownian proportions and industrial production is now back in recession, while latest PMI's suggest we are close to flatline overall.
Osborne is hoping that the referendum vote will give him cover for his failures.
Comments
Even though it's dubious at best, Vote Leave should let it go, for now.
40 days to go and cupboard is getting bare as authority figures are wheeled out one after the other. I saw a direct threat aimed at Gibraltar yesterday. Apparently they'll be invaded by Spain. @GeoffM noted that the island was most likely to come out strongly for Remain anyway - so this is clearly a tactic to cement them in place.
Still without Blair there would be no Invictus Games and our Paralympics team would be a shadow of its current strength.
The referendum is on the future direction of our country, and you are happy for a TV company to get a bigger audience.
Which is more important?
The Ukrainians said no to the EU and it ended up in the CIA overthrowing their elected government in a violent and bloody coup, preselected placemen installed and a government waging war on its own people.
Perhaps they will even shoot down an airliner and blame it on vote leave?
Thank goodness for reliable news sources like the Express.
Cameron will be dreading an incredulous audience reaction to one of his claims like ed m and denial of overspending (although a report after the ge explained he had a much better answer prepared which explained things and ended with a summary of no - he seems to have mixed up the order on the night)
And both sides use the tactics of fear and panic which are now the characteristics of Conservative campaigning.
Plus trying to rig the whole thing by unscrupulous means, so that they get the result they want. Dog eats dog.
This referendum will resolve nothing, until both sides start to discuss the sort of EU that we would like it to become. Cameron could have given some leadership on this, with his "negotiations". Instead, he just took part in a charade. As a leader, the man is a dismal failure. And I am inclined to vote against him. This will not, of course, be a vote for Farage and all his nonsense.
I'd have thought English is the most useful language in the world for sure.
Not unlike when Septimius Severus had rivals for the purple in Albinus and Niger. He allied with Albinus, defeated Niger in battle, and *then* destroyed Albinus.
Whether we vote Leave now, or at some point in the future, the events of 1992 were the turning point.
But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have reacted at all.
who won the Eurovision Sonk Ontest for Norway in 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiH4BFTELME
Talking of "bastards" is John Redwood going to sing to enhance the BREXIT campaign, perhaps something with a topical Eurovision Song Contest slant - "Making You Mind Up" - Vote Leave.
I think going to court doesn't help matters for them, but they could easily have kept broadly the same level of criticism if the decision, and that while they wish farage well against the PM it shows the PM is afraid to confront t the real campaign etc etc
With power comes responsibility.
Loads of the usual dodgy economic predictions, and now Edwina's toy boy comes out with a few social predictions. Leave could always retaliate with a ten years on broadcast. If you stay in the EU, this is what it will look like ...
I'm sure Roger could advise. One army, one parliament, a population of greyness, Waterloo and other stations renamed after famous European politicians we've never heard of.
Remain would go daft, but you have the words of prominent Eurocrats to display.
1. You have no message.
2. Your message is crap.
3. You're panicking.
Either way it is a distraction. And it impresses no-one and turns off those who might have some sympathy for your cause.
Every moment Vote Leave spends threatening No. 10 or ITV or some other person on their own side or attacking those who are making arguments on the Remain side is a moment not spent on trying to persuade the voters of the merits of the Leave case.
This point should be uncontroversial and should be tattooed on the foreheads of everyone on the Leave side.
Why they can't understand it and insist on behaving like toddlers having a tantrum at a party beats me.
Another six weeks of this is frankly too much to bear.
A good day to all.
The only people damaging their Party are (by and large) the same Bastards who tried it in the 90s
The closet Kippers on the Tory backbenches hate Cameron much more than Brussels, and they are quite prepared to destroy the party to take down the man
They seem to be jealous. He is a proven winner, whereas their champions have all been serial losers
Tsk ....
Good day to all indeed.
It looks like 29 winning Tories may be on the slippery slope. UKIP and The Lib-Dems have a genuine grievance.
http://www.channel4.com/news/election-expenses-exposed
http://www.channel4.com/news/battlebus-conservatives-admit-election-expenses
The former Liberal Democrat MP Adrian Sanders has demanded Devon and Cornwall Police take action.
He said the general election mailshots last year meant the Conservatives had broken local spending limits.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36284335
Meanwhile, an admission that's music to our Corbynite ears:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03tx9p3
I've never thought that the BBC was especially left or right wing, but it has two roots, the middle-of-the-road urban establishment and the London media. Anti-establishment movements who don't follow normal media rules have a tough time, whether it's Momentum or UKIP or religious puritans.
Personally I think it's a brave decision by Cameron to allow Farage to be on the Q&A programme, but I guess it isn't a head to head. I suspect the main motivation for this was that the Remain camp knew exactly how Vote Leave would react and to that extent Vote Leave have played into their hands perfectly.
You are complaining that a debate about "the future direction of our country" will be seen by MORE people?
It is interesting to spectulate just what might have happened if Kinnock had won in April 1992 and decided to remove the EMU opt-out and give it a go.
@ali_harper: "Ah need ma Scots", says Scot who doesn't speak Scots.
Farron vs Farage would be an interesting confrontation, but one we'll never see. It's about controlling the terms of the debate and there's no point fighting the Establishment on this matter. That's where the Labour voters might be important. "Are you an Establishment lickspittle?" could be an interesting question to ask them. "Are you doing what your betters are ordering?"
Yes
Well 2001 was more because one local candidate was crap and 2015 by the fact both major local candidates were crap, but it comes to the same thing.
1997 too young, would have voted Labour
2001 Conservative
2005 Green
2010 Conservative
2012by Labour
2015 Lib Dem.
No.
Yours sincerely
David Cameron"
A Conservative spokesman said: "Simply referring to the location where the elector lives does not promote any named candidate."
"The literature only promoted the national Conservative Party."
What he'd give to be voted one of Scotland's top 10 political websites.
As far as the Euro is concerned, the only reason this quisling little man didn't sign us up to that is because his Party and the Papers (which were much stronger then) would never have gone along with it. Do you seriously think that if this idiot had had his way he wouldn't have dumped us into the Euro?
John Major is an utter fool. He took his Party down to the worst defeat since the Duke Of Wellington... Why anybody would take any notice of him I have no idea.
There will be other perfectly legal EU migrants who have been entering the country who didn't bother to register and are working on the black market. Pop over for over six months, cash in hand, no tax, then back home.
I wonder what the count is for this group?
Ask Cameron then multiply by 10.
Clinton 51 Trump 49.
Supports the other polls, such as the LA one showing Trump outperforming Romney, that it is all tied at this juncture.
"Since when are newspaper proprietors, their editors, cabinet ministers and City billionaires not part of the Establishment?"
They generally are, unless you have a readership to placate. I've no doubt, they take advantage of their privileges otherwise.
But it's been a little fairer than 1975 so far. The BBC are pro-EU, but they make an effort to be balanced. It's a little like asking the DUP to be balanced about the Pope, so Leave shouldn't complain too much - the BBC are doing their best.
Labour are pursuing the right tactics, keeping their heads down and letting the Tories take the flak. Cynical and worthy of Stalin during the Warsaw encirclement.
Farage effortlessly dispatched Clegg in the previous debate, and I expect even if he does badly people will just put that down to it being Farage. Bring it on.
https://developers.slashdot.org/story/16/05/12/2037234/google-open-sources-syntaxnet-natural-language-understanding-library-parsey-mcparseface-training-model
666 seconds
So all us suckers will have to continue paying the TV license fee until 2027. So much for the much vaunted negotiations and changes to the BBC which help all the license payers up and down the country.
Rather like Cameron's cheap sell out to the EU. This Tory government can't help being weak when called upon to defend the British public, but strong when it comes to taking all the austerity measures they can to fill the ever emptying government coffers.
Oh the shame ....
He's not about to ban general elections, is he?
BTW Sir John Major is the clear star,prepared to go to places current Tory leaders fear to tread.
The margin of error and the *explanation* simply aren't cutting it. And many are pointing out that the implications for infrastructure, housing, health, education et al aren't covered by those earning minimum wage or slightly above.
IIRC less than 50% of the population is a net contributor to the economy. It seems unlikely that those employed in mid-low skilled jobs will be in this category.
Oddly enough, as I look through the broadcast schedule, the one thing there isn't a lot of is or are "debates". There are interviews and question-answering aplenty but not a lot of actual real, honest to goodness debate.
Cameron's refusal to debate with another Conservative is, as I said, clear as it automatically puts that other Conservative on an equal footing with the Prime Minister who, in terms of his own party, would no longer be primus, let alone primus inter pares. In effect, it would make that opposing speaker the leader-in-waiting in the eyes of the public and especially if he was perceived to have bested the Prime Minister in the debate.
The other problem is if Cameron ducked the debate and left it to Osborne or May, a strong performance by either of them would equally undermine Cameron who, after all, initiated the Referendum and who seems determined to stake his personal and political capital on being the leader of the winning REMAIN campaign.
If LEAVE can't use any of their Conservatives to debate Cameron, then it has to be Farage who at least has a modicum of recognition. Debating with a pro-LEAVE Labour figure of any significance risks it becoming a party political match (and a strong performance by that Labour figure would also be a risk to Corbyn) and there is no authoritative pro-LEAVE non-party figure out there so we come back to Nigel who has quite literally nothing and everything to lose.
IF Farage does well against Cameron, it enhances his political reputation once again - if he fails, LEAVE and in particular LEAVE Conservatives have a fall guy.
Osborne is hoping that the referendum vote will give him cover for his failures.