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  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Forth bridge slap down to SNP Ms Fellows moaning about steel
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.

    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,627
    Photos from Spectator debate last night:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/spectator/status/725271839254142976
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,415
    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.

    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    In other words, Morgan has made a right mess and No.10 policy people are trying to find a way out of it. She's gone in reshuffle. How about sending her to sort out the doctors?
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    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.
    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    But why create a problem internally and damage the party's image with such a blunder? Was it just Osborne wanting a headline?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Cameron effectively dared Corbyn not to sack Naz Shah
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @georgeeaton: Suspect most of the shadow cabinet agree with every word Cameron just said on Naz Shah. #PMQs
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.

    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    In other words, Morgan has made a right mess and No.10 policy people are trying to find a way out of it. She's gone in reshuffle. How about sending her to sort out the doctors?
    No, I think Hunt is doing an excellent job in health, not shirking from the fight to impose the neccessary new terms on Doctors.

    So I agree with the Gov't on health, and disagree with them on forced academisation. I'm guessing that's a small venn diagram - but my opinions are my own and its why I'm not in any party despite being more politically interested than most.
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    Corbyn hammered again..

    Don't think so. I am normally very anti-Corbyn, but that wasn't too bad (by his abysmal standards).
    I'd agree - building on last time out.
    Yes Corbyn is doing much better largely helped by the Osborne/Morgan school stupidity.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822

    *cough* Of course, people after a good comedy should read this (by me):
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Adventures-Edric-Hero-Hornska-Book-ebook/dp/B01DOSP9ZK/

    Unlike Jeremy Hardy, I'm afraid it's not very politically correct (most people seem to like that, although I do have one 2* review from a lady who didn't).

    Okay... I've bought it!! :lol:
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Labour claiming it isn't safe for children to be in the EU.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.
    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    But why create a problem internally and damage the party's image with such a blunder? Was it just Osborne wanting a headline?
    I'm remain totally perplexed by it - complete own goal
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @paulwaugh: Woah. Yvette Cooper just applauded by SNP for impassioned plea for Cameron to think again on refugees.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    Corbyn hammered again..

    He wasn't, but he wasn't really very good either. Simply going well are you going to U-Turn...No...Are you sure...No....well nobody wants this...Tough....Ok...sits down...

    It didn't change anything either way. And this is on a stupid policy by the government.

    But he has a bigger problem, to make a decision on Naz Shah, which it appears he has stuck his head in the sand and gone la la la, don't want to upset my mates at the Finsbury Park Mosque.
    She was a moderate Muslim though, we were told this after she won that it was a big victory for a moderate Muslim woman to beat Galloway in a Muslim dominated area.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,415
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.

    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    In other words, Morgan has made a right mess and No.10 policy people are trying to find a way out of it. She's gone in reshuffle. How about sending her to sort out the doctors?
    No, I think Hunt is doing an excellent job in health, not shirking from the fight to impose the neccessary new terms on Doctors.

    So I agree with the Gov't on health, and disagree with them on forced academisation. I'm guessing that's a small venn diagram - but my opinions are my own and its why I'm not in any party despite being more politically interested than most.
    I was joking actually. Can't even see why she's a cabinet minister when you look at others who aren't. Hunt should probably stay and see this through, although I wont be surprised if he doesn't.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    The Ice Pixie looking a bit pale. Home life must be a bit tough, what with Norwich facing relegation adding to hubby's annus horribilis....
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Emma Reynolds now pointing out the superiority of the French Health Service.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822

    Corbyn hammered again..

    Don't think so. I am normally very anti-Corbyn, but that wasn't too bad (by his abysmal standards).
    I'd agree - building on last time out.
    Yes Corbyn is doing much better largely helped by the Osborne/Morgan school stupidity.
    And the odious McBride.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    If I've understood Tw@tter correctly, the answer to Robertson's question is ...... THE FRENCH.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @janemerrick23: Labour, look at what you could've won. Fine robust questioning from Yvette Cooper on refugees. #PMQs

    @iainmartin1: Superb by @YvetteCooperMP on child refugees. Proper question well-delivered. What a contrast with Corbyn.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
    Mr. Enjineeya, the report included some short-term temperature predictions. Which were completely wrong.

    Miss Plato, thanks, hope you like it :)
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.

    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    In other words, Morgan has made a right mess and No.10 policy people are trying to find a way out of it. She's gone in reshuffle. How about sending her to sort out the doctors?
    No, I think Hunt is doing an excellent job in health, not shirking from the fight to impose the neccessary new terms on Doctors.

    So I agree with the Gov't on health, and disagree with them on forced academisation. I'm guessing that's a small venn diagram - but my opinions are my own and its why I'm not in any party despite being more politically interested than most.
    I'd be with you on both topics. The doctors who are claiming that the new contract is a health'n'safety thing (but we'll do it if you pay us more) need to be taken on. Governments have to have a right to make decisions and the BMA shouldn't be allowed to effectively block the change.

    But it's silly to force schools to be acadamies when they don't want to, don't need to and are well-supported by their local authority. Apart from which, it's questionable as to whether there are enough quality academy chains to support that number of schools. Nothing wrong with the market approach and letting local councils act as academy providers.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822

    The Ice Pixie looking a bit pale. Home life must be a bit tough, what with Norwich facing relegation adding to hubby's annus horribilis....

    She was very shouty and cross - what a stupid bit of fauxrage too
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    Paul Waugh
    Still not a lot of Tory MPs behind Cameron shouting support during academy spat. Like last week

    Ominous, but the academy spat is an own goal. Of course if Cameron judged Osborne and Morgan on their performance standards, both would have been fired a long time ago. Keeping one because he is a mate and the other as a form of tokenism and that she is a REMAIN supporter, just serves him right.
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    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.
    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    But why create a problem internally and damage the party's image with such a blunder? Was it just Osborne wanting a headline?
    Yes, stupid. Academies are good in areas where the local authority has a monopoly and is useless. Many educational authorities are very good but even thenif a school fails then they get control through an academy. This is moving from one monopoly to another. Morgan is a fool to accept it.
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    LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    Interesting to look at PA, Democrats outnumber Republicans by 1 million voters (4.2M vs. 3.1M – 50% to 37%) and the primary is closed. Your only chance to change party is to do so a minimum of one month before the election by sending in a new registration card (no same day changes). Nevertheless with 99% of the vote counted Trump ends up with about 26,000 fewer voters than Hillary, with almost as many as Republican votes as Democrat overall.

    The results in key townships in Montgomery and Delaware Counties would lead to an election victory if it were a general election. Republicans are outvoting Democrats in Horsham, Upper Moreland, Lower Gwynedd, Montgomery, Whitpain, Upper Gwynedd, Lower Providence, Hatfield, Lower Pottsgrove Townships and Rockledge Borough in Montgomery County, all of which Obama won twice. The shift is about 5-10% vs. the 2012 general.

    PA is won by Republicans regularly attracting Independents and crossover voting (and the indifference to voting of inner city blacks in Philadelphia). The primary reaffirms that Trump must find a way to broaden his appeal, presumably by acting more Presidential, with middle- and upper-middle class voters in counties like Montgomery and Chester. This was the only bright spot in the electorate for Romney in 2012, in terms of both share and turnout. Trump clearly has the blue collar whites in a way Romney never came close to doing. Also Trump will need to keep independents from going from Bernie to Clinton, presumably by hammering her on corruption and trade.

    All in all PA looks very much in play for Trump, as does the Presidency.
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    Yvette painting Italy as a hell hole for parentless kids. May be we have entered a time tunnel and stepped back to the 1940s.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    Pulpstar said:

    If I've understood Tw@tter correctly, the answer to Robertson's question is ...... THE FRENCH.

    Wait, is this about "refugees" in Calais? Why don't they claim asylum in the first world nation of France?
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    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,902
    edited April 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.

    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    In other words, Morgan has made a right mess and No.10 policy people are trying to find a way out of it. She's gone in reshuffle. How about sending her to sort out the doctors?
    No, I think Hunt is doing an excellent job in health, not shirking from the fight to impose the neccessary new terms on Doctors.

    So I agree with the Gov't on health, and disagree with them on forced academisation. I'm guessing that's a small venn diagram - but my opinions are my own and its why I'm not in any party despite being more politically interested than most.
    Hunt is surely playing with fire. Junior doctors and those aspiring to the profession are young, smart, mobile and eminently employable in other fields or countries. The danger is that many of them simply say "sod it" and pack their bags or leave the profession if Hunt pushes them too far. They may not look it, but they are a far more formidable opponent than the miners were, and they hold much better cards.
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    Dixie said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.
    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    But why create a problem internally and damage the party's image with such a blunder? Was it just Osborne wanting a headline?
    Yes, stupid. Academies are good in areas where the local authority has a monopoly and is useless. Many educational authorities are very good but even thenif a school fails then they get control through an academy. This is moving from one monopoly to another. Morgan is a fool to accept it.
    Has anyone seen articles showing any real insight into who actually took the decision? The education ministers appear to be uncomfortable about it, yet seem in fear of Osborne. Morgan just confirms by her approach that she is unfit to be considered as a future Leader let alone fit to be in cabinet.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Yvette painting Italy as a hell hole for parentless kids. May be we have entered a time tunnel and stepped back to the 1940s.

    That depiction is, sadly, the truth:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/24/refugee-children-vote-lords

    "Ten thousand children who will have disappeared into trafficking networks across Europe, forced into drug abuse, child labour, sexual exploitation. Independent medical assessments have found that nearly half of all unaccompanied minors carry a sexually transmitted disease, testament to the terrible dangers they face along the way to Europe."

    But the Prime Minister thinks that we should just wash our hands of the problem.

    Sometimes theory has to give way to practice. The government made a serious error of judgement not accepting Lord Dubs's amendment.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Debating which particular bunch of Jewish people need to be deported according to Naz Shah....wow..
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PolhomeEditor: Shadow minister: "Naz Shah will be gone by teatime. She has to lose the whip."
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    12.44 - what has been the longest session of PMQs?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    Yvette painting Italy as a hell hole for parentless kids. May be we have entered a time tunnel and stepped back to the 1940s.

    That depiction is, sadly, the truth:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/24/refugee-children-vote-lords

    "Ten thousand children who will have disappeared into trafficking networks across Europe, forced into drug abuse, child labour, sexual exploitation. Independent medical assessments have found that nearly half of all unaccompanied minors carry a sexually transmitted disease, testament to the terrible dangers they face along the way to Europe."

    But the Prime Minister thinks that we should just wash our hands of the problem.

    Sometimes theory has to give way to practice. The government made a serious error of judgement not accepting Lord Dubs's amendment.
    So why isn't our PM and the rest of Europe's leadership putting pressure on Italy to sort itself out and get its house in order?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292

    Yvette painting Italy as a hell hole for parentless kids. May be we have entered a time tunnel and stepped back to the 1940s.

    Tyson will be pleased....
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.

    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    In other words, Morgan has made a right mess and No.10 policy people are trying to find a way out of it. She's gone in reshuffle. How about sending her to sort out the doctors?
    No, I think Hunt is doing an excellent job in health, not shirking from the fight to impose the neccessary new terms on Doctors.

    So I agree with the Gov't on health, and disagree with them on forced academisation. I'm guessing that's a small venn diagram - but my opinions are my own and its why I'm not in any party despite being more politically interested than most.
    I'd be with you on both topics. The doctors who are claiming that the new contract is a health'n'safety thing (but we'll do it if you pay us more) need to be taken on. Governments have to have a right to make decisions and the BMA shouldn't be allowed to effectively block the change.

    But it's silly to force schools to be acadamies when they don't want to, don't need to and are well-supported by their local authority. Apart from which, it's questionable as to whether there are enough quality academy chains to support that number of schools. Nothing wrong with the market approach and letting local councils act as academy providers.
    There's everything wrong with the market approach. Kids' eduction is not not a commodity to be monetised and competed over - it's far too precious for that.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    Scott_P said:

    @janemerrick23: Labour, look at what you could've won. Fine robust questioning from Yvette Cooper on refugees. #PMQs

    @iainmartin1: Superb by @YvetteCooperMP on child refugees. Proper question well-delivered. What a contrast with Corbyn.

    How many refugees staying at Casa Cooper-Balls these days?
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.

    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    In other words, Morgan has made a right mess and No.10 policy people are trying to find a way out of it. She's gone in reshuffle. How about sending her to sort out the doctors?
    No, I think Hunt is doing an excellent job in health, not shirking from the fight to impose the neccessary new terms on Doctors.

    So I agree with the Gov't on health, and disagree with them on forced academisation. I'm guessing that's a small venn diagram - but my opinions are my own and its why I'm not in any party despite being more politically interested than most.
    I'd be with you on both topics. The doctors who are claiming that the new contract is a health'n'safety thing (but we'll do it if you pay us more) need to be taken on. Governments have to have a right to make decisions and the BMA shouldn't be allowed to effectively block the change.

    But it's silly to force schools to be acadamies when they don't want to, don't need to and are well-supported by their local authority. Apart from which, it's questionable as to whether there are enough quality academy chains to support that number of schools. Nothing wrong with the market approach and letting local councils act as academy providers.
    There's everything wrong with the market approach. Kids' eduction is not not a commodity to be monetised and competed over - it's far too precious for that.
    Or even education!
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    Mr. Enjineeya, the report included some short-term temperature predictions. Which were completely wrong.

    Miss Plato, thanks, hope you like it :)

    No, it didn't include any such predictions. Looks like you've been taken in by the denialists.
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.

    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    In other words, Morgan has made a right mess and No.10 policy people are trying to find a way out of it. She's gone in reshuffle. How about sending her to sort out the doctors?
    No, I think Hunt is doing an excellent job in health, not shirking from the fight to impose the neccessary new terms on Doctors.

    So I agree with the Gov't on health, and disagree with them on forced academisation. I'm guessing that's a small venn diagram - but my opinions are my own and its why I'm not in any party despite being more politically interested than most.
    Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of strike action, why do you see the new terms as "necessary"? Is it that the existing contract makes it impossible to deploy doctors in the manner which is desired to go to a "7-day" model, or that paying them on that contract makes it undesirably expensive? I've seen a lot of doctor bashing, some of it probably justified, but nothing that actually makes it clear why Hunt thought it was a good idea to start the fight in the first place.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    Dixie said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.
    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    But why create a problem internally and damage the party's image with such a blunder? Was it just Osborne wanting a headline?
    Yes, stupid. Academies are good in areas where the local authority has a monopoly and is useless. Many educational authorities are very good but even thenif a school fails then they get control through an academy. This is moving from one monopoly to another. Morgan is a fool to accept it.
    Has anyone seen articles showing any real insight into who actually took the decision? The education ministers appear to be uncomfortable about it, yet seem in fear of Osborne. Morgan just confirms by her approach that she is unfit to be considered as a future Leader let alone fit to be in cabinet.
    Yes, a stronger education secretary would have told Osborne to fuck off or have the cojones to sack them. Having a Cabinet full of Osborne's acolytes and placemen is harming the party.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    Polruan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.

    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    In other words, Morgan has made a right mess and No.10 policy people are trying to find a way out of it. She's gone in reshuffle. How about sending her to sort out the doctors?
    No, I think Hunt is doing an excellent job in health, not shirking from the fight to impose the neccessary new terms on Doctors.

    So I agree with the Gov't on health, and disagree with them on forced academisation. I'm guessing that's a small venn diagram - but my opinions are my own and its why I'm not in any party despite being more politically interested than most.
    Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of strike action, why do you see the new terms as "necessary"? Is it that the existing contract makes it impossible to deploy doctors in the manner which is desired to go to a "7-day" model, or that paying them on that contract makes it undesirably expensive? I've seen a lot of doctor bashing, some of it probably justified, but nothing that actually makes it clear why Hunt thought it was a good idea to start the fight in the first place.
    Around £12-14bn in additional funding per year under the current contract terms for additional staff iirc. We don't have the money for a 7-day NHS and Hunt is trying to do it by imposing an effective pay cut to junior doctors which is going to massively hit graduate -> NHS retention rates.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
    Mr. Enjineeya, denialists?

    We're not talking about pretending genocide didn't happen. We're discussing a scientific theory.

    It's a few years ago, but the reporting was on the BBC, which is not noted for its sceptical attitude towards global warming.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,551

    Layne said:

    Given the vast lack of scrutiny the BBC gave to the errors in the Treasury report, it is crazy to claim the BBC is biased in an anti-EU direction. Chris Patten's view is being vastly obscured by his raging Europhilia.

    It's actually quite frightening - very reminiscent of the attacks we've seen recently on media balance (or the attempt to appear balanced) on climate change. The blob doesn't like to be contradicted, and it's continually pushing the boundaries to try and de-legitimise dissent.
    Criticism of the BBC for attempting to create a false balance of views with regard to climate change is, in my opinion, perfectly justified. Given the overwhelming scientific consensus for anthropogenic climate change, there is no justification for giving a platform to those who deny it for political reasons. We don't expect to hear the views of creation scientists every time geology is discussed.
    I'd accuse climate change sceptics of being politically motivated when you've investigated fully who benefits from the current climate change industry - you may not like what you find. Science depends on funding. Funding depends on big business and big Government. That's why 'overwhelming scientific consensus' cuts no ice with me. When science stops questioning, it ceases to become science and becomes a religion.

    More importantly though, is the fact that this should be of concern to anyone who cares about balance in any area. Once you think it's acceptable for the 'polite' view of anything to be repeated without dissent, you are on a very slippery slope.
    Seriously? You really think the world's scientists are engaging in some massive conspiracy to make up measurements to obtain funding? Acceptance of the results of scientific investigation has nothing to do with politeness; it is the basis of rational decision making.

    Real, scientific, scepticism is, of course, to be encouraged, but the sort of idiotic, pig-headed denial that is rife on the internet and media shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone.
    I think the word 'conspiracy' really needs to be put back in the toy box till the kids have learned to play with it nicely.

    Any suggestion by anyone that any statement might bear further exploration is leaped on as a 'conspiracy' as if the very mention of the word and its connotations of Roswell and lizard people should shut down all argument. People are nuanced and their motivations aren't always black and white, and their public pronouncements aren't always a full reflection of the truth. This should hardly be news.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Scottish Tory Surge Klaxon

    @JournoStephen: Scottish Labour to finish third behind Tories, poll finds https://t.co/oJ1gCH5AW0 https://t.co/3d8MAJ8G2Z
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    MaxPB said:

    Polruan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Forced academisation is one Conservative policy I really don't understand the purpose of - particularly with good schools run by decent LEAs.

    I think the Gov't has realised this and so is allowing LEAs themselves to become providers of services through the academy structure rather than the old one.

    In other words, Morgan has made a right mess and No.10 policy people are trying to find a way out of it. She's gone in reshuffle. How about sending her to sort out the doctors?
    No, I think Hunt is doing an excellent job in health, not shirking from the fight to impose the neccessary new terms on Doctors.

    So I agree with the Gov't on health, and disagree with them on forced academisation. I'm guessing that's a small venn diagram - but my opinions are my own and its why I'm not in any party despite being more politically interested than most.
    Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of strike action, why do you see the new terms as "necessary"? Is it that the existing contract makes it impossible to deploy doctors in the manner which is desired to go to a "7-day" model, or that paying them on that contract makes it undesirably expensive? I've seen a lot of doctor bashing, some of it probably justified, but nothing that actually makes it clear why Hunt thought it was a good idea to start the fight in the first place.
    Around £12-14bn in additional funding per year under the current contract terms for additional staff iirc. We don't have the money for a 7-day NHS and Hunt is trying to do it by imposing an effective pay cut to junior doctors which is going to massively hit graduate -> NHS retention rates.
    Well yeah, that's pretty much how I see it in effect too - I'm trying to understand why it is seen as "necessary" or even particularly desirable to address this perceived problem in such a confrontational way.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    Pulpstar said:



    In other words, Morgan has made a right mess and No.10 policy people are trying to find a way out of it. She's gone in reshuffle. How about sending her to sort out the doctors?

    No, I think Hunt is doing an excellent job in health, not shirking from the fight to impose the neccessary new terms on Doctors.

    So I agree with the Gov't on health, and disagree with them on forced academisation. I'm guessing that's a small venn diagram - but my opinions are my own and its why I'm not in any party despite being more politically interested than most.
    I'd be with you on both topics. The doctors who are claiming that the new contract is a health'n'safety thing (but we'll do it if you pay us more) need to be taken on. Governments have to have a right to make decisions and the BMA shouldn't be allowed to effectively block the change.

    But it's silly to force schools to be acadamies when they don't want to, don't need to and are well-supported by their local authority. Apart from which, it's questionable as to whether there are enough quality academy chains to support that number of schools. Nothing wrong with the market approach and letting local councils act as academy providers.
    There's everything wrong with the market approach. Kids' educ[a]tion is not not a commodity to be monetised and competed over - it's far too precious for that.
    Food provision is even more important but we let the market get on with that. It's not education which is far too precious; it's those who'd have their shortcomings exposed.

    What do you have against monetising something anyway? If it's done properly - and that's a big 'if, I'll grant you - then it means that resources will be properly allocated where they're needed, driving up standards. The same with competition. In fact, of course, there is and always has been competition. Parents choose schools on the basis of quality and often go to quite considerable lengths to get their kids into good ones. But those good ones have to remain good to continue to attract applications. That's how the market works.

    Of course there will be failures but the fallacy in that way of thinking is to pretend that sweeping failures behind the curtain means they don't exist. When I was growing up, everyone knew which the bad schools were and those who cared did all they could to avoid them - the fact that the LEA wouldn't admit the problem neither meant it didn't exist nor that people weren't aware. Transparency, flexibility and fairness in funding is all that's needed. But that's what's wrong with this policy: it reduces flexibility.
  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited April 2016
    According to locals here... refugees and children are treated exceedingly well..Perhaps Corbyn and Cooper should take it up with the Government in Italy.. where the children are..
  • Options
    LayneLayne Posts: 163

    Yvette painting Italy as a hell hole for parentless kids. May be we have entered a time tunnel and stepped back to the 1940s.

    That depiction is, sadly, the truth:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/24/refugee-children-vote-lords

    "Ten thousand children who will have disappeared into trafficking networks across Europe, forced into drug abuse, child labour, sexual exploitation. Independent medical assessments have found that nearly half of all unaccompanied minors carry a sexually transmitted disease, testament to the terrible dangers they face along the way to Europe."

    But the Prime Minister thinks that we should just wash our hands of the problem.

    Sometimes theory has to give way to practice. The government made a serious error of judgement not accepting Lord Dubs's amendment.

    Yvette painting Italy as a hell hole for parentless kids. May be we have entered a time tunnel and stepped back to the 1940s.

    That depiction is, sadly, the truth:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/24/refugee-children-vote-lords

    "Ten thousand children who will have disappeared into trafficking networks across Europe, forced into drug abuse, child labour, sexual exploitation. Independent medical assessments have found that nearly half of all unaccompanied minors carry a sexually transmitted disease, testament to the terrible dangers they face along the way to Europe."

    But the Prime Minister thinks that we should just wash our hands of the problem.

    Sometimes theory has to give way to practice. The government made a serious error of judgement not accepting Lord Dubs's amendment.
    We are not washing our hands of the problem. We are taking 3,000 from the camps, who will be more desperate than those in Europe. If we are to take 3,000 more, it should be another 3,000 from the camps.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,899
    Scott_P said:

    @janemerrick23: Labour, look at what you could've won. Fine robust questioning from Yvette Cooper on refugees. #PMQs

    @iainmartin1: Superb by @YvetteCooperMP on child refugees. Proper question well-delivered. What a contrast with Corbyn.

    Does she prefer Tea or Coffee?

    Has she decided yet?
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,551

    Mr. Enjineeya, the report included some short-term temperature predictions. Which were completely wrong.

    Miss Plato, thanks, hope you like it :)

    No, it didn't include any such predictions. Looks like you've been taken in by the denialists.
    Oh God, 'denialists' too. Looks like someone swallowed the internet smear glossary whole. I'm expecting 'I bet you think Jews caused 9-11' in 3, 2, 1...
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @theobertram: Corbyn now in position that if he withdraws the whip, it will appear he was forced to by Lisa Nandy & PM. If he doesn't, looks even worse.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
    Anyway, I'm off for a bit. Play nicely, kids.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    According to locals here... refugees and children are treated exceedingly well..Perhaps Corbyn and Cooper should take it up with the Government in Italy.. where the children are..

    That would seem eminently more appropriate, as with the child refugees in France.

    But where’s a virtue signalling in doing that?
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Scott_P said:

    @theobertram: Corbyn now in position that if he withdraws the whip, it will appear he was forced to by Lisa Nandy & PM. If he doesn't, looks even worse.

    She should have been sacked already. Disgusting (and telling) that under Corbyn Labour are holding on to people with such views.

    They should ALL be out of the party.
  • Options
    Tory surge klaxon

    Scottish Parliament voting intention (const.):
    SNP: 53% (-2)
    LAB: 19% (-1)
    CON: 18% (+2)
    LDEM: 6% (-)
    (via Ipsos Mori)


    Scottish Parliament voting intention (list):
    SNP: 45% (-4)
    CON: 19% (+4)
    LAB: 17% (-2)
    GRN: 10% (+4)
    LDEM: 7% (-1)
    (via Ipsos Mori)
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @paulwaugh: Corbyn spokesman confirms that the NEC will now look at Shah remarks. Suspension is now "a question for the NEC.."

    Not a clue...
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    Scott_P said:

    Scottish Tory Surge Klaxon

    @JournoStephen: Scottish Labour to finish third behind Tories, poll finds https://t.co/oJ1gCH5AW0 https://t.co/3d8MAJ8G2Z

    I heard this but couldn't write it because would be too surprised. Good if true.
  • Options

    Mr. Enjineeya, denialists?

    We're not talking about pretending genocide didn't happen. We're discussing a scientific theory.

    It's a few years ago, but the reporting was on the BBC, which is not noted for its sceptical attitude towards global warming.

    Here's a link to the 4th IPCC report:

    https://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/publications_ipcc_fourth_assessment_report_synthesis_report.htm

    Please point out the short-term predictions that you claim turned out to be incorrect. Just one will do.
  • Options
    Ominous, have Cameron and Osborne strengthened Labour to the detriment of their own party?

    Michael Crick
    Deal on £1.7m union funding of Labour in Europe campaign was struck in meetings between union leaders and ministers

    Michael Crick
    Union leaders told ministers they hadn't time or resources to fight for Remain campaign as had to devote efforts & money to fight TU Bill
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited April 2016
    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: Corbyn spokesman confirms that the NEC will now look at Shah remarks. Suspension is now "a question for the NEC.."

    Not a clue...

    Time to set up a committee to discuss the matter. I propose Red Ken should lead this given his unblemished record...
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @RobDotHutton: Corbyn spokesman on Shah: "We're not suggesting she's anti-Semitic. We're saying she's made remarks that she doesn't agree with."
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Dixie said:

    I heard this but couldn't write it because would be too surprised. Good if true.

    Tragically released too late for the Scottish Labour manifesto launch...
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    Tory surge klaxon

    Scottish Parliament voting intention (const.):
    SNP: 53% (-2)
    LAB: 19% (-1)
    CON: 18% (+2)
    LDEM: 6% (-)
    (via Ipsos Mori)


    Scottish Parliament voting intention (list):
    SNP: 45% (-4)
    CON: 19% (+4)
    LAB: 17% (-2)
    GRN: 10% (+4)
    LDEM: 7% (-1)
    (via Ipsos Mori)

    Never mind the Tory score, look at the SNP list one. 53% in the constituencies (vs just 19 next) would still come close to a clean sweep but 45% would produce very few top-ups. Also, the Lib Dems on 7% might well qualify in most regions. On these figures, Sturgeon might find herself having to sign the Greens up.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited April 2016
    "We're saying she's made remarks that she doesn't agree with."

    LOL....Sounds like classic Chairman Mao Milne...
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JournoStephen: STV News poll:

    Which party has the best policies for Scotland?

    SNP 46%
    Tories 17%
    Lab 13%
    Green 4%
    LibDems 3%

    https://t.co/oJ1gCH5AW0
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144

    Anyway, I'm off for a bit. Play nicely, kids.

    * runs up and pulls Al Meeks' pigtails...*
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,627

    Pulpstar said:



    In other words, Morgan has made a right mess and No.10 policy people are trying to find a way out of it. She's gone in reshuffle. How about sending her to sort out the doctors?

    No, I think Hunt is doing an excellent job in health, not shirking from the fight to impose the neccessary new terms on Doctors.

    So I agree with the Gov't on health, and disagree with them on forced academisation. I'm guessing that's a small venn diagram - but my opinions are my own and its why I'm not in any party despite being more politically interested than most.
    I'd be with you on both topics. The doctors who are claiming that the new contract is a health'n'safety thing (but we'll do it if you pay us more) need to be taken on. Governments have to have a right to make decisions and the BMA shouldn't be allowed to effectively block the change.

    But it's silly to force schools to be acadamies when they don't want to, don't need to and are well-supported by their local authority. Apart from which, it's questionable as to whether there are enough quality academy chains to support that number of schools. Nothing wrong with the market approach and letting local councils act as academy providers.
    There's everything wrong with the market approach. Kids' educ[a]tion is not not a commodity to be monetised and competed over - it's far too precious for that.
    Food provision is even more important but we let the market get on with that. It's not education which is far too precious; it's those who'd have their shortcomings exposed.

    What do you have against monetising something anyway? If it's done properly - and that's a big 'if, I'll grant you - then it means that resources will be properly allocated where they're needed, driving up standards. The same with competition. In fact, of course, there is and always has been competition. Parents choose schools on the basis of quality and often go to quite considerable lengths to get their kids into good ones. But those good ones have to remain good to continue to attract applications. That's how the market works.

    Of course there will be failures but the fallacy in that way of thinking is to pretend that sweeping failures behind the curtain means they don't exist. When I was growing up, everyone knew which the bad schools were and those who cared did all they could to avoid them - the fact that the LEA wouldn't admit the problem neither meant it didn't exist nor that people weren't aware. Transparency, flexibility and fairness in funding is all that's needed. But that's what's wrong with this policy: it reduces flexibility.
    And that's why I'm a Conservative, folks.

    Excellent post.
  • Options

    Tory surge klaxon

    Scottish Parliament voting intention (const.):
    SNP: 53% (-2)
    LAB: 19% (-1)
    CON: 18% (+2)
    LDEM: 6% (-)
    (via Ipsos Mori)


    Scottish Parliament voting intention (list):
    SNP: 45% (-4)
    CON: 19% (+4)
    LAB: 17% (-2)
    GRN: 10% (+4)
    LDEM: 7% (-1)
    (via Ipsos Mori)

    Never mind the Tory score, look at the SNP list one. 53% in the constituencies (vs just 19 next) would still come close to a clean sweep but 45% would produce very few top-ups. Also, the Lib Dems on 7% might well qualify in most regions. On these figures, Sturgeon might find herself having to sign the Greens up.
    Sleazy broken SNP on the slide ?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Hey, lads, can you bring some more shovels?

    @paulwaugh: Corbyn spokesman "she said she shocked herself" with those remarks and "doesn't agree" with those remarks.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753

    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: Corbyn spokesman confirms that the NEC will now look at Shah remarks. Suspension is now "a question for the NEC.."

    Not a clue...

    Time to set up a committee to discuss the matter. I propose Red Ken should lead this given his unblemished record...
    Are labour stalling on Shah for fear of upsetting certain people who may be voting in the London Mayoral?
  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    When will Liverpool ever accept the fact that it was Liverpool fans who crushed other Liverpool fans to death...no one else
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @paulwaugh: Asked if Corbyn personally decided not to withdraw the whip from Shah, his spokesman says: "Having met her, he's chosen not to."
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    Scott_P said:

    Hey, lads, can you bring some more shovels?

    @paulwaugh: Corbyn spokesman "she said she shocked herself" with those remarks and "doesn't agree" with those remarks.

    At this rate we will have a tunnel straight to Australia....
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @rowenamason: Corbyn spokesman says he will not suspend whip from Naz Shah because she's showing with words&actions she did not mean antiSemitic comments
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144

    When will Liverpool ever accept the fact that it was Liverpool fans who crushed other Liverpool fans to death...no one else

    Not once in the coverage of the past 48 hours have I seen any reference to the trauma the Forest fans suffered that day. The Forest fans who managed to get into Hillsborough in a calm, sensible way that the Liverpool fans somehow didn't...
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,551

    Ominous, have Cameron and Osborne strengthened Labour to the detriment of their own party?

    Michael Crick
    Deal on £1.7m union funding of Labour in Europe campaign was struck in meetings between union leaders and ministers

    Michael Crick
    Union leaders told ministers they hadn't time or resources to fight for Remain campaign as had to devote efforts & money to fight TU Bill

    Wow. Beneath contempt.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,627
    Dancing Palace Guard – ‏@DancerGuard

    - "Hey Dave, I'm sorry I made your EU poll numbers slide. Can I try again?"
    - "Get to the back of the queue."

    https://mobile.twitter.com/DancerGuard/status/725075818628653057
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    taffys said:

    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: Corbyn spokesman confirms that the NEC will now look at Shah remarks. Suspension is now "a question for the NEC.."

    Not a clue...

    Time to set up a committee to discuss the matter. I propose Red Ken should lead this given his unblemished record...
    Are labour stalling on Shah for fear of upsetting certain people who may be voting in the London Mayoral?
    I'm sure the Jewish vote in north London will now be coming out in droves for Labour's man in the mayoral...
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JournoStephen: STV News poll:

    Which party looks after your interests?

    SNP 45
    Con 18
    Lab 16
    Lib Dem 3
    Green 3

    https://t.co/oJ1gCH5AW0

    Scottish Tories ahead of Labour...
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    Ominous, have Cameron and Osborne strengthened Labour to the detriment of their own party?

    Michael Crick
    Deal on £1.7m union funding of Labour in Europe campaign was struck in meetings between union leaders and ministers

    Michael Crick
    Union leaders told ministers they hadn't time or resources to fight for Remain campaign as had to devote efforts & money to fight TU Bill

    Len 'n Dave innit
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    Scott_P said:

    @JournoStephen: STV News poll:

    Which party looks after your interests?

    SNP 45
    Con 18
    Lab 16
    Lib Dem 3
    Green 3

    https://t.co/oJ1gCH5AW0

    Scottish Tories ahead of Labour...

    Corbynism sweeping the nation...
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    taffys said:

    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: Corbyn spokesman confirms that the NEC will now look at Shah remarks. Suspension is now "a question for the NEC.."

    Not a clue...

    Time to set up a committee to discuss the matter. I propose Red Ken should lead this given his unblemished record...
    Are labour stalling on Shah for fear of upsetting certain people who may be voting in the London Mayoral?
    It seems the most logical, if stupid explanation - no way she'll survive til then. Guido's elves will root out more.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @EricPickles: So Corbyn's pledge to tackle antisemitism were just words - sad day for a once great Party https://t.co/auYhcg9ghF
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,627

    Anyway, I'm off for a bit. Play nicely, kids.

    * runs up and pulls Al Meeks' pigtails...*
    My Dad's bigger than his Dad, and Alastair smells of wee.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    Just run the Holyrood numbers through ScotlandVotes, which suggests

    SNP 71
    Con 23
    Lab 20
    Grn 9
    LD 6

    It'd be the constituency figure keeping them in a majority - hardly any top-ups.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822

    When will Liverpool ever accept the fact that it was Liverpool fans who crushed other Liverpool fans to death...no one else

    Not once in the coverage of the past 48 hours have I seen any reference to the trauma the Forest fans suffered that day. The Forest fans who managed to get into Hillsborough in a calm, sensible way that the Liverpool fans somehow didn't...
    Me neither, frankly I'm sick of it.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    Labour is now a party so hideously bound up with needing the support of the Muslim vote that it is prepared to abandon the Jews to suffer anti-semitism from within its own ranks.

    What would Ed Miliband's dad say?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    39
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,627

    Labour is now a party so hideously bound up with needing the support of the Muslim vote that it is prepared to abandon the Jews to suffer anti-semitism from within its own ranks.

    What would Ed Miliband's dad say?

    That he hates the English?
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited April 2016

    Labour is now a party so hideously bound up with needing the support of the Muslim vote that it is prepared to abandon the Jews to suffer anti-semitism from within its own ranks.

    What would Ed Miliband's dad say?

    A thread on the Labour Party's demise over the last twenty years would be fascinating - the fall-out from Blair's era - devolution, immigration, Gordon... it's crushing them everywhere. And Mandy et al thought they were so clever at the time. Well they did nicely for themselves, and failed their Party.

    Cameron is sailing the same path today.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205

    Just run the Holyrood numbers through ScotlandVotes, which suggests

    SNP 71
    Con 23
    Lab 20
    Grn 9
    LD 6

    It'd be the constituency figure keeping them in a majority - hardly any top-ups.

    I know it's not easy to work out, but if their constituency vote fell, would they benefit from more top up MSPs?
  • Options
    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    Scott_P said:

    @rowenamason: Corbyn spokesman says he will not suspend whip from Naz Shah because she's showing with words&actions she did not mean antiSemitic comments

    If more is uncovered, then he'll have to do quite a reversal.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    Tory surge klaxon

    Scottish Parliament voting intention (const.):
    SNP: 53% (-2)
    LAB: 19% (-1)
    CON: 18% (+2)
    LDEM: 6% (-)
    (via Ipsos Mori)


    Scottish Parliament voting intention (list):
    SNP: 45% (-4)
    CON: 19% (+4)
    LAB: 17% (-2)
    GRN: 10% (+4)
    LDEM: 7% (-1)
    (via Ipsos Mori)

    Never mind the Tory score, look at the SNP list one. 53% in the constituencies (vs just 19 next) would still come close to a clean sweep but 45% would produce very few top-ups. Also, the Lib Dems on 7% might well qualify in most regions. On these figures, Sturgeon might find herself having to sign the Greens up.
    Sleazy broken SNP on the slide ?
    Well, maybe not quite yet but it does look to me as if the Greens have made a major boo-boo not running in the constituencies. I suspect that that decision explains most of the SNPs difference between the constit and list shares. Lop 10% off the constituency numbers and the SNP would probably be needing the Greens' support to form a coalition.

    Still, Greens mess up the practicalities of politics is hardly a new story.

    However, we should take it as a possible indicator of where things might go when the SNP do lose support (as all governments do).
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Mr. Enjineeya, denialists?

    We're not talking about pretending genocide didn't happen. We're discussing a scientific theory.

    It's a few years ago, but the reporting was on the BBC, which is not noted for its sceptical attitude towards global warming.

    Here's a link to the 4th IPCC report:

    https://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/publications_ipcc_fourth_assessment_report_synthesis_report.htm

    Please point out the short-term predictions that you claim turned out to be incorrect. Just one will do.
    You have completely swallowed the Kool-Aid.
    There's no point debating with you as your mind is closed to rational discussion.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753

    Labour is now a party so hideously bound up with needing the support of the Muslim vote that it is prepared to abandon the Jews to suffer anti-semitism from within its own ranks.

    What would Ed Miliband's dad say?

    A thread on the Labour Party's demise over the last twenty years would be fascinating - the fall-out from Blair's era - devolution, immigration, Gordon... it's crushing them everywhere. And Mandy et al thought they were so clever at the time. Well they did nicely for themselves, and failed their Party.

    Cameron is sailing the same path today.
    I wonder if a Welsh meltdown is in the offing for labour next.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    taffys said:

    Are labour stalling on Shah for fear of upsetting certain people who may be voting in the London Mayoral?

    It certainly does look like it. Zac has a chance to hit Khan hard with this and force him to condemn her and call for the suspension of her whip, if Khan doesn't he confirms all of mud slinging might have something to it.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    taffys said:

    Labour is now a party so hideously bound up with needing the support of the Muslim vote that it is prepared to abandon the Jews to suffer anti-semitism from within its own ranks.

    What would Ed Miliband's dad say?

    A thread on the Labour Party's demise over the last twenty years would be fascinating - the fall-out from Blair's era - devolution, immigration, Gordon... it's crushing them everywhere. And Mandy et al thought they were so clever at the time. Well they did nicely for themselves, and failed their Party.

    Cameron is sailing the same path today.
    I wonder if a Welsh meltdown is in the offing for labour next.
    How are UKIP's prospects? Labour losing to them is just delicious.
This discussion has been closed.