Dave and George must be frustrated to hell right now. They're scared they'll lose but even more so they thought they'd win themselves a place in history and their party. A positive one. I think they've both sunk themselves.
I am enjoying it. They've played Obama and spent £9.3m of our money trying to decisively move the polls and...
Leave are still tied or have small leads in the polls. Only a week ago the most fervent Remainers were crowing about a 20%+ victory and closing down the eurosceptics for good.
I expect Cameron/Osborne thought they'd be 10-20 points ahead by now.
Remain will probably still win quite clearly, but lose the intellectual argument in the process.
@Alanbrooke My vote is cast not on the basis that the argument put forward by Leave is discredited by those advocating it, but on the basis that one should cast one's vote on the basis of what is in the best interests of the country.
I shall be voting for what I consider will be in the best interests of the country. It is not in the best interests of the country to trust its governance to nitwits. That rules out trusting Leave.
There you go again, repeating the same nonsense.
On June 24th Cameron will be PM regardless of the outcome and he said in parliament he wouldn't be standing down. Perhaps he's one of the nitwits you refer to.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course Cameron's job is on the line. You are aware there's a mechanism to remove him without his consent?
Why am I being ridiculous?
Cameron was asked by Carswell in parliament. Now if his party decide they no longer want him that will be a democratic process. That's the problem with democracy, nitwits sometimes win.
It's naive to take Cameron's answer to Carswell at face value. He gave the only answer he could (and the one Carswell expected). In reality his position will be untenable if he loses the referendum.
After the exchange the deputy editor of this site cheered that Cameron had "slammed" Carswell, I pointed out that in fact it was the opposite.
But it seems we agree, the duplicitous Cameron has painted himself into a corner. Have you ever seen football fans when one of the opposition players gets a red card? For reasons only he knows he has placed himself in a no win situation, he's fucked regardless.
We should go nowhere near those 3000 children..They are in France and it is a French problem. Let the children be registered in France and then they can go through the process. The Peers calling for them to be admitted to the UK will not be impacted in any way whatsoever..the burden will fall on the tax paying little people..and who give a toss about them...
I see SeanF's favourite Brian Coleman has rushed out a tweet disparaging the Hillsborough verdict. The school of Trump in public utterances.
New Opinium survey in the works on referendum, Cameron vs Corbyn, VI and doctors' strike. You have to read the referendum questions carefully as Remain/Leave and positive/negative get swapped around, so it's easy to support the exact opposite to your views by mistake.
Did you get which of the seven dwarves the EU is question ?
There's some real idiocy re Hillsborough, even the Nats' fave, Wings over Somerset has been showing his idiocy on this topic again.
Despite being an avid Wings reader and having many of my funniest quips been retweeted by him I have now been blocked for trying to politely engage with him on the issue.
Like a lot of people, he can't admit he's wrong, even when the facts are staring him in the face.
But he knows better than the jury that sat through two years' worth of evidence.
Given that you are a lawyer, Mr. Eagles, I find your faith that the jury system and, indeed the courts in general, have anything but the most passing acquaintance with truth, justice and evidence naively touching.
Despite being an avid Wings reader and having many of my funniest quips been retweeted by him I have now been blocked for trying to politely engage with him on the issue.
Blocked personally. or added to his list? If so, welcome to the club.
OT. I'd just like to repeat the warning I gave Cameron six years ago when he appointed Philip Green 'Waste Tsar'
'He gives tax avoiding Monaco based asset strippers a bad name'
Can you tell me what he's done wrong?
Allegedly taken money out of the BHS pension fund to pay himself a dividend before selling it for £1 to a bunch of conmen.
The dividend was paid over 10 years ago (an aquaintance of mine* organised it and got all his clients' money back).
And it came from the company, not the pension fund. Because it would be illegal to take it from the pension fund.
* (known to many as Wriggly Wigley)
Money that was supposed to plug the pensions deficit, sorry. It may be legally correct, but it is still a scumbag move. You can't tell me it is right that he paid himself hundreds of millions in dividends while the company lost money and the pension deficit widened. I'm hardly a soak the rich lefty, but it's people like Green who give business people a bad name and behaviour like that needs to be punished by the regulator and the money needs to be clawed back.
Per my other post, I can't and I won't.
The company made over £100m in profit in 2004. I don't know what the pension deficit was, but I suspect it wasn't that significant.
A lot of the high pension liability numbers are caused by using a 0.5% rate to discount future obligations which may or may not be the right discount rate to use.
Looking at the guardian report the dividends were pulled from 2002-4. Subsequent dividends have come from Arcadia not bhs (which was kept separate)...
And the pension fund was in credit until 2008... As we both continually state the issue here is flat interest rates impacting crystallized obligations...
AS said elsewhere, it is the £1.6B removed by the owners that caused all the issues/deficits. No investment , no paying into pension fund , huge dividends taken out etc. 0% interest rates had little to do with it.
Dave and George must be frustrated to hell right now. They're scared they'll lose but even more so they thought they'd win themselves a place in history and their party. A positive one. I think they've both sunk themselves.
I'm not seeing any love for Cameron anywhere bar a couple on here. It's dismal for him - and accelerating towards Blair's legacy. Incredible collapse in his fortunes.
Well he's got the lefties frothing and seething with hate - the disabilities / IDS shite in the budget plus doctors' strike means they already detest him. So to be at least a little bit respected and popular somewhere he should give a nod to the side he is actually on (nominally - clearly he's a TINO). Instead he's dropped his trousers and shat on their carpet. He's a raging hit with the metrosexual, Europhile, establishment Tory set. And they number in the millions! (not).
I used to be a big Dave fan. He's lost me completely. I used to think Ozzy was making the best of a bad job. He's lost me completely too.
I see SeanF's favourite Brian Coleman has rushed out a tweet disparaging the Hillsborough verdict. The school of Trump in public utterances.
New Opinium survey in the works on referendum, Cameron vs Corbyn, VI and doctors' strike. You have to read the referendum questions carefully as Remain/Leave and positive/negative get swapped around, so it's easy to support the exact opposite to your views by mistake.
I was rather hoping that Brian Coleman would be standing in Barnet and Camden again.
I see SeanF's favourite Brian Coleman has rushed out a tweet disparaging the Hillsborough verdict. The school of Trump in public utterances.
New Opinium survey in the works on referendum, Cameron vs Corbyn, VI and doctors' strike. You have to read the referendum questions carefully as Remain/Leave and positive/negative get swapped around, so it's easy to support the exact opposite to your views by mistake.
Did you get which of the seven dwarves the EU is question ?
There's some real idiocy re Hillsborough, even the Nats' fave, Wings over Somerset has been showing his idiocy on this topic again.
Despite being an avid Wings reader and having many of my funniest quips been retweeted by him I have now been blocked for trying to politely engage with him on the issue.
Like a lot of people, he can't admit he's wrong, even when the facts are staring him in the face.
But he knows better than the jury that sat through two years' worth of evidence.
Given that you are a lawyer, Mr. Eagles, I find your faith that the jury system and, indeed the courts in general, have anything but the most passing acquaintance with truth, justice and evidence naively touching.
It was the bad science he was implying that really narked me off coupled with the fact the police now admitting they lied.
"Labour's disgusting anti-Semitism" as a header - punchy
"So far, Ms Shah has lost her job as an aide to John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, but remains a Labour member. That speaks volumes about Mr Corbyn’s disgustingly inadequate response to anti-Semitism in his party. "
Dave and George must be frustrated to hell right now. They're scared they'll lose but even more so they thought they'd win themselves a place in history and their party. A positive one. I think they've both sunk themselves.
There's still time for Cameron to win his place in history as the PM who lost a referendum but refused to implement its outcome, in the process managing to split his own party and merge with part of the Labour party.
I think he stays as PM for a while if Leave wins, departs voluntarily in 2018 if Remain wins well (it won't) or departs involuntarily this year if Remain scrapes a victory. Actually, I'm not sure about that last scenario - if he deploys the normal national interest/threatening the recovery/fear/disunity will lose us the election approach to defend his position is there a challenger who will be prepared to stand up? It may end up similar to the last years of Brown.
@Alanbrooke My vote is cast not on the basis that the argument put forward by Leave is discredited by those advocating it, but on the basis that one should cast one's vote on the basis of what is in the best interests of the country.
I shall be voting for what I consider will be in the best interests of the country. It is not in the best interests of the country to trust its governance to nitwits. That rules out trusting Leave.
There you go again, repeating the same nonsense.
On June 24th Cameron will be PM regardless of the outcome and he said in parliament he wouldn't be standing down. Perhaps he's one of the nitwits you refer to.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course Cameron's job is on the line. You are aware there's a mechanism to remove him without his consent?
That can happen irrespective of the result of the referendum.
Yes, but a Leave win makes it's almost certain (though I think he'd resign rather than wait for a challenge).
Gosh, if we vote to leave we will get rid of Cameron and Osborne and the EU off our backs and maybe Scotland will vote to go as well, What is not to like about that? Forget all the, rather spurious, arguments about trade, there is the clincher argument for Leave right there.
Watching some of the wealthy elitists trying coming to to terms with the fact that the UK would once again be a self-governing country would just be the icing on the cake.
Spot on.
I had discussions with senior Ukip people about the stance of being pro Union, I thought it hypocritical, Ukip should have been neutral at least.
My sincerest hope is that we vote to Leave and restore some humility and accountability to the elite you refer to.
@Alanbrooke My vote is cast not on the basis that the argument put forward by Leave is discredited by those advocating it, but on the basis that one should cast one's vote on the basis of what is in the best interests of the country.
I shall be voting for what I consider will be in the best interests of the country. It is not in the best interests of the country to trust its governance to nitwits. That rules out trusting Leave.
There you go again, repeating the same nonsense.
On June 24th Cameron will be PM regardless of the outcome and he said in parliament he wouldn't be standing down. Perhaps he's one of the nitwits you refer to.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course Cameron's job is on the line. You are aware there's a mechanism to remove him without his consent?
Why am I being ridiculous?
Cameron was asked by Carswell in parliament. Now if his party decide they no longer want him that will be a democratic process. That's the problem with democracy, nitwits sometimes win.
It's naive to take Cameron's answer to Carswell at face value. He gave the only answer he could (and the one Carswell expected). In reality his position will be untenable if he loses the referendum.
To consider the alternate point of view...
If the result is Leave, MPs will be conciliatory to him, and ask him to stay for a while, as long as a key Leaver negotiates the exit. Cameron will be standing down anyway so why not let this take its course?
If the result is Remain, there will be a lot of bad feeling that Cameron has cheated the referendum (given all his actions over it), and we are more likely to see pressure to see him step aside.
I think your second scenario is plausible. He could be pushed out even if Remain wins. The first scenario seems very unlikely to me. You can't really have a Prime Minister who is divorced from the principal activity of his own government. I get the idea in theory but in practice I don't see how it's possible. He is still answerable to Parliament for the progress of the negotiations, he still has to represent the country at head of government summits. I don't see how it can work and I don't see how anyone would benefit from there being a figurehead Prime Minister. I mean, we already have a figurehead at the top. She does the job pretty well.
Dave and George must be frustrated to hell right now. They're scared they'll lose but even more so they thought they'd win themselves a place in history and their party. A positive one. I think they've both sunk themselves.
There's still time for Cameron to win his place in history as the PM who lost a referendum but refused to implement its outcome, in the process managing to split his own party and merge with part of the Labour party.
I think he stays as PM for a while if Leave wins, departs voluntarily in 2018 if Remain wins well (it won't) or departs involuntarily this year if Remain scrapes a victory. Actually, I'm not sure about that last scenario - if he deploys the normal national interest/threatening the recovery/fear/disunity will lose us the election approach to defend his position is there a challenger who will be prepared to stand up? It may end up similar to the last years of Brown.
If it were a New Labour government, yes.
Fortunately there is a majority for defenestration on the Tory benches if the leadership defy the result, so that won't happen. And the new leader would command the loyalty of 300+ MPs which, with the DUP/Labour rebels et al and various abstentions, would be enough to see it pass the House. Although the Lords might threaten trouble.
Credit where credit is due Cameron did call the vote as promised and I think he would respect it if it were to Leave.
Given the vast lack of scrutiny the BBC gave to the errors in the Treasury report, it is crazy to claim the BBC is biased in an anti-EU direction. Chris Patten's view is being vastly obscured by his raging Europhilia.
It's actually quite frightening - very reminiscent of the attacks we've seen recently on media balance (or the attempt to appear balanced) on climate change. The blob doesn't like to be contradicted, and it's continually pushing the boundaries to try and de-legitimise dissent.
Criticism of the BBC for attempting to create a false balance of views with regard to climate change is, in my opinion, perfectly justified. Given the overwhelming scientific consensus for anthropogenic climate change, there is no justification for giving a platform to those who deny it for political reasons. We don't expect to hear the views of creation scientists every time geology is discussed.
I'd accuse climate change sceptics of being politically motivated when you've investigated fully who benefits from the current climate change industry - you may not like what you find. Science depends on funding. Funding depends on big business and big Government. That's why 'overwhelming scientific consensus' cuts no ice with me. When science stops questioning, it ceases to become science and becomes a religion.
More importantly though, is the fact that this should be of concern to anyone who cares about balance in any area. Once you think it's acceptable for the 'polite' view of anything to be repeated without dissent, you are on a very slippery slope.
Dave and George must be frustrated to hell right now. They're scared they'll lose but even more so they thought they'd win themselves a place in history and their party. A positive one. I think they've both sunk themselves.
I'm not seeing any love for Cameron anywhere bar a couple on here. It's dismal for him - and accelerating towards Blair's legacy. Incredible collapse in his fortunes.
Well he's got the lefties frothing and seething with hate - the disabilities / IDS shite in the budget plus doctors' strike means they already detest him. So to be at least a little bit respected and popular somewhere he should give a nod to the side he is actually on (nominally - clearly he's a TINO). Instead he's dropped his trousers and shat on their carpet. He's a raging hit with the metrosexual, Europhile, establishment Tory set. And they number in the millions! (not).
I used to be a big Dave fan. He's lost me completely. I used to think Ozzy was making the best of a bad job. He's lost me completely too.
By their actions Cameron and Osborne are showing that they never thought leaving the EU was a credible option, which means they will have made no serious effort to re-negotiate with the EU.
Vote LEAVE and have a serious negotiation about associate membership.
Dave and George must be frustrated to hell right now. They're scared they'll lose but even more so they thought they'd win themselves a place in history and their party. A positive one. I think they've both sunk themselves.
There's still time for Cameron to win his place in history as the PM who lost a referendum but refused to implement its outcome, in the process managing to split his own party and merge with part of the Labour party.
I think he stays as PM for a while if Leave wins, departs voluntarily in 2018 if Remain wins well (it won't) or departs involuntarily this year if Remain scrapes a victory. Actually, I'm not sure about that last scenario - if he deploys the normal national interest/threatening the recovery/fear/disunity will lose us the election approach to defend his position is there a challenger who will be prepared to stand up? It may end up similar to the last years of Brown.
If it were a New Labour government, yes.
Fortunately there is a majority for defenestration on the Tory benches if the leadership defy the result, so that won't happen. And the new leader would command the loyalty of 300+ MPs which, with the DUP/Labour rebels et al and various abstentions, would be enough to see it pass the House. Although the Lords might threaten trouble.
Credit where credit is due Cameron did call the vote as promised and I think he would respect it if it were to Leave.
I don't share your optimism. Cameron's ability to pre-empt his opponents' moves and then portray any action on their part as reckless/risky/dishonest/self-serving is phenomenal. Given Corbyn's tenuous grip on the Labour party, Cameron could count on large numbers from the technocratic pro-European right of the Labour party to see off any Parliamentary attempt by his own backbenchers to force the referendum's outcome to be implemented - he'd kick the can down the road by insisting that it was too risky for our economy to leave immediately, rather than reviewing the manner in which we should leave, then proposing a new referendum offering at least two distinct leave options, with remain on the ballot once more as a third option.
His key priorities are 1) to be PM; 2) to be remembered as having been a successful PM. That's it. He'll cling on as long as the alternative is leaving and being remembered as unsuccessful.
Tony Blair, Philip Green and the head of the Remain campaign?
That's a priceless photograph at this moment in time.
I'm more concerned about the socks on Stuart Rose - wtf?
It's probably the flash making them look like a pair of tights. The same thing sometimes happens in red carpet photographs where women wear dresses with fabric that's a bit too thin and then under the lights they become see-through.
I see SeanF's favourite Brian Coleman has rushed out a tweet disparaging the Hillsborough verdict. The school of Trump in public utterances.
New Opinium survey in the works on referendum, Cameron vs Corbyn, VI and doctors' strike. You have to read the referendum questions carefully as Remain/Leave and positive/negative get swapped around, so it's easy to support the exact opposite to your views by mistake.
Did you get which of the seven dwarves the EU is question ?
There's some real idiocy re Hillsborough, even the Nats' fave, Wings over Somerset has been showing his idiocy on this topic again.
Despite being an avid Wings reader and having many of my funniest quips been retweeted by him I have now been blocked for trying to politely engage with him on the issue.
Like a lot of people, he can't admit he's wrong, even when the facts are staring him in the face.
But he knows better than the jury that sat through two years' worth of evidence.
Given that you are a lawyer, Mr. Eagles, I find your faith that the jury system and, indeed the courts in general, have anything but the most passing acquaintance with truth, justice and evidence naively touching.
It was the bad science he was implying that really narked me off coupled with the fact the police now admitting they lied.
Fair go, Mr. Eagles, but your anger and surprise that the police lied, is astonishing. The police nearly always lie - you know that. Even when they don't need to, even when lying will actually harm their cause they still do it.
At a dinner I once sat next to a senior chap from the the Data Protection people (I think he is still alive so I won't name him) and he was completely confused by the fact that in a case he was involved in and despite the truth of the matter being plainly evident (it was there in the computer records and in the Policy Book) police officers up to ACPO level insisted on lying to him.
Only the other week there was a case in the papers where at the start of a trial the QC stood up and offered no evidence, why? Because the police lied. They lied to everyone, the defence, the prosecution, even to each other.
Until Chief Officers become personally liable for damages, rather than dumping the costs on the taxpayer, this is not going to change.
@politicshome: Labour frontbencher Lisa Nandy says MP Naz Shah should be suspended over anti-Semitic Facebook post. Corbyn's office saying no suspension.
Dave and George must be frustrated to hell right now. They're scared they'll lose but even more so they thought they'd win themselves a place in history and their party. A positive one. I think they've both sunk themselves.
I'm not seeing any love for Cameron anywhere bar a couple on here. It's dismal for him - and accelerating towards Blair's legacy. Incredible collapse in his fortunes.
Well he's got the lefties frothing and seething with hate - the disabilities / IDS shite in the budget plus doctors' strike means they already detest him. So to be at least a little bit respected and popular somewhere he should give a nod to the side he is actually on (nominally - clearly he's a TINO). Instead he's dropped his trousers and shat on their carpet. He's a raging hit with the metrosexual, Europhile, establishment Tory set. And they number in the millions! (not).
I used to be a big Dave fan. He's lost me completely. I used to think Ozzy was making the best of a bad job. He's lost me completely too.
To paraphrase the man himself: 'Let me put it as simply as I can, Britain and PB.com — they are not the same thing.'
It turns out the OECD "month of pay" claim is just the completely spurious "£4,300" number rehashed. I have still not heard any defence of the holes in George Osborne's numbers by Remain supporters. That is quite the hypocrisy when they get upset with people playing the man. We are playing the ball here very clearly, and they are silent.
Dave and George must be frustrated to hell right now. They're scared they'll lose but even more so they thought they'd win themselves a place in history and their party. A positive one. I think they've both sunk themselves.
I'm not seeing any love for Cameron anywhere bar a couple on here. It's dismal for him - and accelerating towards Blair's legacy. Incredible collapse in his fortunes.
Well he's got the lefties frothing and seething with hate - the disabilities / IDS shite in the budget plus doctors' strike means they already detest him. So to be at least a little bit respected and popular somewhere he should give a nod to the side he is actually on (nominally - clearly he's a TINO). Instead he's dropped his trousers and shat on their carpet. He's a raging hit with the metrosexual, Europhile, establishment Tory set. And they number in the millions! (not).
I used to be a big Dave fan. He's lost me completely. I used to think Ozzy was making the best of a bad job. He's lost me completely too.
I defended Osborne's 2012 budget and was calling him a master strategist less than 2 years ago.
Tony Blair, Philip Green and the head of the Remain campaign?
That's a priceless photograph at this moment in time.
I'm more concerned about the socks on Stuart Rose - wtf?
It's probably the flash making them look like a pair of tights. The same thing sometimes happens in red carpet photographs where women wear dresses with fabric that's a bit too thin and then under the lights they become see-through.
Tony Blair, Philip Green and the head of the Remain campaign?
That's a priceless photograph at this moment in time.
I'm more concerned about the socks on Stuart Rose - wtf?
It's probably the flash making them look like a pair of tights. The same thing sometimes happens in red carpet photographs where women wear dresses with fabric that's a bit too thin and then under the lights they become see-through.
I'd a colleague who wore silk socks - they looked rather creepy.
Given the vast lack of scrutiny the BBC gave to the errors in the Treasury report, it is crazy to claim the BBC is biased in an anti-EU direction. Chris Patten's view is being vastly obscured by his raging Europhilia.
It's actually quite frightening - very reminiscent of the attacks we've seen recently on media balance (or the attempt to appear balanced) on climate change. The blob doesn't like to be contradicted, and it's continually pushing the boundaries to try and de-legitimise dissent.
Criticism of the BBC for attempting to create a false balance of views with regard to climate change is, in my opinion, perfectly justified. Given the overwhelming scientific consensus for anthropogenic climate change, there is no justification for giving a platform to those who deny it for political reasons. We don't expect to hear the views of creation scientists every time geology is discussed.
There is overwhelming evidence of climate change but not overwhelming that it is primarily anthropogenic.
Heathrow, Trident, austerity measures and now the trade union Bill have all been delayed because of the EU referendum. Cameron and Osborne should know the governance of this country should not be put second to EU membership.
It turns out the OECD "month of pay" claim is just the completely spurious "£4,300" number rehashed. I have still not heard any defence of the holes in George Osborne's numbers by Remain supporters. That is quite the hypocrisy when they get upset with people playing the man. We are playing the ball here very clearly, and they are silent.
You know what?
I'm totally immune to any of these scare stories now. I'm totally satisfied the UK will be a strong, rich and prosperous country outside the EU with plenty of allies and influence.
I'm going to be walking into the polling booth very relaxed on 23rd June and marking 'LEAVE' full of confidence and hope for myself, my family and the country's future. And even that of the whole of Europe as well.
Dave and George must be frustrated to hell right now. They're scared they'll lose but even more so they thought they'd win themselves a place in history and their party. A positive one. I think they've both sunk themselves.
There's still time for Cameron to win his place in history as the PM who lost a referendum but refused to implement its outcome, in the process managing to split his own party and merge with part of the Labour party.
I think he stays as PM for a while if Leave wins, departs voluntarily in 2018 if Remain wins well (it won't) or departs involuntarily this year if Remain scrapes a victory. Actually, I'm not sure about that last scenario - if he deploys the normal national interest/threatening the recovery/fear/disunity will lose us the election approach to defend his position is there a challenger who will be prepared to stand up? It may end up similar to the last years of Brown.
If it were a New Labour government, yes.
Fortunately there is a majority for defenestration on the Tory benches if the leadership defy the result, so that won't happen. And the new leader would command the loyalty of 300+ MPs which, with the DUP/Labour rebels et al and various abstentions, would be enough to see it pass the House. Although the Lords might threaten trouble.
Credit where credit is due Cameron did call the vote as promised and I think he would respect it if it were to Leave.
I think the only ways a Leave result doesn't get implemented are:
1. A Leaver becomes PM but is flipped and comes back with son-of-renegotiation. Difficult then for Conservative MPs to oust a second leader in the same Parliament for the same reason.
2. The exit still hasn't been made irrevocable by the next election and Labour win and somehow don't get around to it. (Though they would have to end the uncertainty somehow.)
Both of these scenarios require Article 50 not to be invoked soon after the referendum. It surprises me that some Leavers say it shouldn't be.
Tony Blair, Philip Green and the head of the Remain campaign?
That's a priceless photograph at this moment in time.
I'm more concerned about the socks on Stuart Rose - wtf?
It's probably the flash making them look like a pair of tights. The same thing sometimes happens in red carpet photographs where women wear dresses with fabric that's a bit too thin and then under the lights they become see-through.
I'd a colleague who wore silk socks - they looked rather creepy.
Dave and George must be frustrated to hell right now. They're scared they'll lose but even more so they thought they'd win themselves a place in history and their party. A positive one. I think they've both sunk themselves.
There's still time for Cameron to win his place in history as the PM who lost a referendum but refused to implement its outcome, in the process managing to split his own party and merge with part of the Labour party.
I think he stays as PM for a while if Leave wins, departs voluntarily in 2018 if Remain wins well (it won't) or departs involuntarily this year if Remain scrapes a victory. Actually, I'm not sure about that last scenario - if he deploys the normal national interest/threatening the recovery/fear/disunity will lose us the election approach to defend his position is there a challenger who will be prepared to stand up? It may end up similar to the last years of Brown.
If it were a New Labour government, yes.
Fortunately there is a majority for defenestration on the Tory benches if the leadership defy the result, so that won't happen. And the new leader would command the loyalty of 300+ MPs which, with the DUP/Labour rebels et al and various abstentions, would be enough to see it pass the House. Although the Lords might threaten trouble.
Credit where credit is due Cameron did call the vote as promised and I think he would respect it if it were to Leave.
I don't share your optimism. Cameron's ability to pre-empt his opponents' moves and then portray any action on their part as reckless/risky/dishonest/self-serving is phenomenal. Given Corbyn's tenuous grip on the Labour party, Cameron could count on large numbers from the technocratic pro-European right of the Labour party to see off any Parliamentary attempt by his own backbenchers to force the referendum's outcome to be implemented - he'd kick the can down the road by insisting that it was too risky for our economy to leave immediately, rather than reviewing the manner in which we should leave, then proposing a new referendum offering at least two distinct leave options, with remain on the ballot once more as a third option.
His key priorities are 1) to be PM; 2) to be remembered as having been a successful PM. That's it. He'll cling on as long as the alternative is leaving and being remembered as unsuccessful.
I'd find it genuinely fascinating if Parliament defied a Leave vote in this Referendum.
I used to be a big Dave fan. He's lost me completely. I used to think Ozzy was making the best of a bad job. He's lost me completely too.
Cameron's conference speech last year was excellent - he set out a vision for a fairer society that I applauded. I would be very happy for that to be his legacy.
Instead, he came back from the EU with a turd of a renegotiation. He then used up huge reserves of goodwill, trying to sell this as some relic of the true Cross. Complete with magical healing powers. At least he has the humility to not mention this now. Instead, we get all the arguments trotted out that would have been trotted out without any renegotiation. Which just reinforces how much of a sham it was.
I shall still be sad to see Cameron go. Osborne? Not so much....
I'm totally immune to any of these scare stories now. I'm totally satisfied the UK will be a strong, rich and prosperous country outside the EU with plenty of allies and influence.
Even the ridiculous doomsday forecast from the treasury basically says that the choice is between a 31% larger economy and a 37% larger economy.
I think the government's relentless negativity is currently doing more harm than any actual consequence of leaving the EU will.
Dave and George must be frustrated to hell right now. They're scared they'll lose but even more so they thought they'd win themselves a place in history and their party. A positive one. I think they've both sunk themselves.
There's still time for Cameron to win his place in history as the PM who lost a referendum but refused to implement its outcome, in the process managing to split his own party and merge with part of the Labour party.
I think he stays as PM for a while if Leave wins, departs voluntarily in 2018 if Remain wins well (it won't) or departs involuntarily this year if Remain scrapes a victory. Actually, I'm not sure about that last scenario - if he deploys the normal national interest/threatening the recovery/fear/disunity will lose us the election approach to defend his position is there a challenger who will be prepared to stand up? It may end up similar to the last years of Brown.
If it were a New Labour government, yes.
Fortunately there is a majority for defenestration on the Tory benches if the leadership defy the result, so that won't happen. And the new leader would command the loyalty of 300+ MPs which, with the DUP/Labour rebels et al and various abstentions, would be enough to see it pass the House. Although the Lords might threaten trouble.
Credit where credit is due Cameron did call the vote as promised and I think he would respect it if it were to Leave.
I don't share your optimism. Cameron's ability to pre-empt his opponents' moves and then portray any action on their part as reckless/risky/dishonest/self-serving is phenomenal. Given Corbyn's tenuous grip on the Labour party, Cameron could count on large numbers from the technocratic pro-European right of the Labour party to see off any Parliamentary attempt by his own backbenchers to force the referendum's outcome to be implemented - he'd kick the can down the road by insisting that it was too risky for our economy to leave immediately, rather than reviewing the manner in which we should leave, then proposing a new referendum offering at least two distinct leave options, with remain on the ballot once more as a third option.
His key priorities are 1) to be PM; 2) to be remembered as having been a successful PM. That's it. He'll cling on as long as the alternative is leaving and being remembered as unsuccessful.
The Labour right can't save Cameron from the 22 though. Well, not unless they cross the house en masse.
Tony Blair, Philip Green and the head of the Remain campaign?
That's a priceless photograph at this moment in time.
I'm more concerned about the socks on Stuart Rose - wtf?
It's probably the flash making them look like a pair of tights. The same thing sometimes happens in red carpet photographs where women wear dresses with fabric that's a bit too thin and then under the lights they become see-through.
I'd a colleague who wore silk socks - they looked rather creepy.
The socks or the colleague?
Both, he thought his socks were evidence of his success. I remarked on them - creepy weird looking, and he delighted in telling me they were made of silk.
I'm totally immune to any of these scare stories now. I'm totally satisfied the UK will be a strong, rich and prosperous country outside the EU with plenty of allies and influence.
Even the ridiculous doomsday forecast from the treasury basically says that the choice is between a 31% larger economy and a 37% larger economy.
I think the government's relentless negativity is currently doing more harm than any actual consequence of leaving the EU will.
Getting three million immigrants in exchange was a corker...
Given the vast lack of scrutiny the BBC gave to the errors in the Treasury report, it is crazy to claim the BBC is biased in an anti-EU direction. Chris Patten's view is being vastly obscured by his raging Europhilia.
It's actually quite frightening - very reminiscent of the attacks we've seen recently on media balance (or the attempt to appear balanced) on climate change. The blob doesn't like to be contradicted, and it's continually pushing the boundaries to try and de-legitimise dissent.
Criticism of the BBC for attempting to create a false balance of views with regard to climate change is, in my opinion, perfectly justified. Given the overwhelming scientific consensus for anthropogenic climate change, there is no justification for giving a platform to those who deny it for political reasons. We don't expect to hear the views of creation scientists every time geology is discussed.
I'd accuse climate change sceptics of being politically motivated when you've investigated fully who benefits from the current climate change industry - you may not like what you find. Science depends on funding. Funding depends on big business and big Government. That's why 'overwhelming scientific consensus' cuts no ice with me. When science stops questioning, it ceases to become science and becomes a religion.
More importantly though, is the fact that this should be of concern to anyone who cares about balance in any area. Once you think it's acceptable for the 'polite' view of anything to be repeated without dissent, you are on a very slippery slope.
Seriously? You really think the world's scientists are engaging in some massive conspiracy to make up measurements to obtain funding? Acceptance of the results of scientific investigation has nothing to do with politeness; it is the basis of rational decision making.
Real, scientific, scepticism is, of course, to be encouraged, but the sort of idiotic, pig-headed denial that is rife on the internet and media shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone.
Dave and George must be frustrated to hell right now. They're scared they'll lose but even more so they thought they'd win themselves a place in history and their party. A positive one. I think they've both sunk themselves.
There's still time for Cameron to win his place in history as the PM who lost a referendum but refused to implement its outcome, in the process managing to split his own party and merge with part of the Labour party.
I think he stays as PM for a while if Leave wins, departs voluntarily in 2018 if Remain wins well (it won't) or departs involuntarily this year if Remain scrapes a victory. Actually, I'm not sure about that last scenario - if he deploys the normal national interest/threatening the recovery/fear/disunity will lose us the election approach to defend his position is there a challenger who will be prepared to stand up? It may end up similar to the last years of Brown.
If it were a New Labour government, yes.
Fortunately there is a majority for defenestration on the Tory benches if the leadership defy the result, so that won't happen. And the new leader would command the loyalty of 300+ MPs which, with the DUP/Labour rebels et al and various abstentions, would be enough to see it pass the House. Although the Lords might threaten trouble.
Credit where credit is due Cameron did call the vote as promised and I think he would respect it if it were to Leave.
I don't share your optimism. Cameron's ability to pre-empt his opponents' moves and then portray any action on their part as reckless/risky/dishonest/self-serving is phenomenal. Given Corbyn's tenuous grip on the Labour party, Cameron could count on large numbers from the technocratic pro-European right of the Labour party to see off any Parliamentary attempt by his own backbenchers to force the referendum's outcome to be implemented - he'd kick the can down the road by insisting that it was too risky for our economy to leave immediately, rather than reviewing the manner in which we should leave, then proposing a new referendum offering at least two distinct leave options, with remain on the ballot once more as a third option.
His key priorities are 1) to be PM; 2) to be remembered as having been a successful PM. That's it. He'll cling on as long as the alternative is leaving and being remembered as unsuccessful.
The Labour right can't save Cameron from the 22 though. Well, not unless they cross the house en masse.
If Cameron has already formed a kind of national unity pact with the Labour right (who would be gagging for it, as they say) there's no way the 22 can then act - they'd be portrayed as risking national security and prosperity. Etc.
Worth noting the fourth IPCC report got its predictions entirely wrong, which nevertheless led to them (for the fifth) increasing their confidence in their own predictions to (I think) 95%.
That's not science. That's a Blair-level of buying your own bullshit.
I have no idea why the government are pushing this policy...the current one is sensible and provides a lot of incentives for schools to do this themselves. Besides having a range of different types of schools i.e. free schools, academies and LEA controlled ones is a good idea.
It turns out the OECD "month of pay" claim is just the completely spurious "£4,300" number rehashed. I have still not heard any defence of the holes in George Osborne's numbers by Remain supporters. That is quite the hypocrisy when they get upset with people playing the man. We are playing the ball here very clearly, and they are silent.
You know what?
I'm totally immune to any of these scare stories now. I'm totally satisfied the UK will be a strong, rich and prosperous country outside the EU with plenty of allies and influence.
I'm going to be walking into the polling booth very relaxed on 23rd June and marking 'LEAVE' full of confidence and hope for myself, my family and the country's future. And even that of the whole of Europe as well.
It will be a very happy day.
Good man, I called the other day for calm heads.
Pollsters and people like Crosby talk of direction of travel, the momentum is indisputably with Leave despite everything chucked at us.
I am very angry, I wrote to Jezza to ask a question for me (its a very good deal, no need to bung an MP any cash in a brown envelope), but he doesn't seem to be taking public questions anymore...
Given the vast lack of scrutiny the BBC gave to the errors in the Treasury report, it is crazy to claim the BBC is biased in an anti-EU direction. Chris Patten's view is being vastly obscured by his raging Europhilia.
It's actually quite frightening - very reminiscent of the attacks we've seen recently on media balance (or the attempt to appear balanced) on climate change. The blob doesn't like to be contradicted, and it's continually pushing the boundaries to try and de-legitimise dissent.
Criticism of the BBC for attempting to create a false balance of views with regard to climate change is, in my opinion, perfectly justified. Given the overwhelming scientific consensus for anthropogenic climate change, there is no justification for giving a platform to those who deny it for political reasons. We don't expect to hear the views of creation scientists every time geology is discussed.
When the climate change scientists can model the future reasonably successfully, I'll have more confidence in their modelling of the past.
Unlike Jeremy Hardy, I'm afraid it's not very politically correct (most people seem to like that, although I do have one 2* review from a lady who didn't).
Top down reorganization of education. Nice line. Corbyn doing pretty well today.
How the f*ck am I supposed to work out who is winning PMQs from you lot !
Score draw? It is clear there is deep unease in grassroots Tory party over academies for primary schools, especially in rural areas and from councilors who feel they doing ok running their local schools. Good one for Corbyn.
He wasn't, but he wasn't really very good either. Simply going well are you going to U-Turn...No...Are you sure...No....well nobody wants this...Tough....Ok...sits down...
It didn't change anything either way. And this is on a stupid policy by the government.
But he has a bigger problem, to make a decision on Naz Shah, which it appears he has stuck his head in the sand and gone la la la, don't want to upset my mates at the Finsbury Park Mosque.
Worth noting the fourth IPCC report got its predictions entirely wrong, which nevertheless led to them (for the fifth) increasing their confidence in their own predictions to (I think) 95%.
That's not science. That's a Blair-level of buying your own bullshit.
The 4th IPCC report was published just nine years ago, which is too short a time scale to determine the accuracy of its climate predictions. Which predictions, specifically, are you talking about?
Top down reorganization of education. Nice line. Corbyn doing pretty well today.
How the f*ck am I supposed to work out who is winning PMQs from you lot !
The majority (?) of the Tory party who don't support Cameron: Corbyn's sensibly not interrupting Cameron while he's making lots of mistakes, inviting him to entrench a position on forced academisation from which he will have to retreat.
Also it's too risky for him to talk about the doctors' strike given that a gag about "Labour friends of strikers outweighing Labour friends of Israel" wouldn't be helpful, and that being portrayed as supporting any strike, no matter how well justified, never plays well for Labour.
Comments
Leave are still tied or have small leads in the polls. Only a week ago the most fervent Remainers were crowing about a 20%+ victory and closing down the eurosceptics for good.
I expect Cameron/Osborne thought they'd be 10-20 points ahead by now.
Remain will probably still win quite clearly, but lose the intellectual argument in the process.
This is good fun.
But it seems we agree, the duplicitous Cameron has painted himself into a corner. Have you ever seen football fans when one of the opposition players gets a red card? For reasons only he knows he has placed himself in a no win situation, he's fucked regardless.
That's a priceless photograph at this moment in time.
I used to be a big Dave fan. He's lost me completely. I used to think Ozzy was making the best of a bad job. He's lost me completely too.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/04/27/labours-disgusting-anti-semitism/
"Labour's disgusting anti-Semitism" as a header - punchy
"So far, Ms Shah has lost her job as an aide to John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, but remains a Labour member. That speaks volumes about Mr Corbyn’s disgustingly inadequate response to anti-Semitism in his party. "
Quite
I think he stays as PM for a while if Leave wins, departs voluntarily in 2018 if Remain wins well (it won't) or departs involuntarily this year if Remain scrapes a victory. Actually, I'm not sure about that last scenario - if he deploys the normal national interest/threatening the recovery/fear/disunity will lose us the election approach to defend his position is there a challenger who will be prepared to stand up? It may end up similar to the last years of Brown.
I had discussions with senior Ukip people about the stance of being pro Union, I thought it hypocritical, Ukip should have been neutral at least.
My sincerest hope is that we vote to Leave and restore some humility and accountability to the elite you refer to.
He has accepted the first failed test and will plead mitigating factors.
Perhaps Lord Patten is just demonstrating excessive entitlement.
Fortunately there is a majority for defenestration on the Tory benches if the leadership defy the result, so that won't happen. And the new leader would command the loyalty of 300+ MPs which, with the DUP/Labour rebels et al and various abstentions, would be enough to see it pass the House. Although the Lords might threaten trouble.
Credit where credit is due Cameron did call the vote as promised and I think he would respect it if it were to Leave.
If yes, is using them as validation for a point of view a strategy for success?
More importantly though, is the fact that this should be of concern to anyone who cares about balance in any area. Once you think it's acceptable for the 'polite' view of anything to be repeated without dissent, you are on a very slippery slope.
Vote LEAVE and have a serious negotiation about associate membership.
His key priorities are 1) to be PM; 2) to be remembered as having been a successful PM. That's it. He'll cling on as long as the alternative is leaving and being remembered as unsuccessful.
At a dinner I once sat next to a senior chap from the the Data Protection people (I think he is still alive so I won't name him) and he was completely confused by the fact that in a case he was involved in and despite the truth of the matter being plainly evident (it was there in the computer records and in the Policy Book) police officers up to ACPO level insisted on lying to him.
Only the other week there was a case in the papers where at the start of a trial the QC stood up and offered no evidence, why? Because the police lied. They lied to everyone, the defence, the prosecution, even to each other.
Until Chief Officers become personally liable for damages, rather than dumping the costs on the taxpayer, this is not going to change.
@PolhomeEditor: Huge Labour split opens up on anti-Semitism just in time for #PMQs. Can someone ask David Cameron what his lottery numbers are?
You have weather
I have climate
Them's the rules.
There is overwhelming evidence of climate change but not overwhelming that it is primarily anthropogenic.
I'm totally immune to any of these scare stories now. I'm totally satisfied the UK will be a strong, rich and prosperous country outside the EU with plenty of allies and influence.
I'm going to be walking into the polling booth very relaxed on 23rd June and marking 'LEAVE' full of confidence and hope for myself, my family and the country's future. And even that of the whole of Europe as well.
It will be a very happy day.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=chris+patten&biw=1366&bih=657&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA2Pjf0q7MAhXkIMAKHdAYBpAQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=_
1. A Leaver becomes PM but is flipped and comes back with son-of-renegotiation. Difficult then for Conservative MPs to oust a second leader in the same Parliament for the same reason.
2. The exit still hasn't been made irrevocable by the next election and Labour win and somehow don't get around to it. (Though they would have to end the uncertainty somehow.)
Both of these scenarios require Article 50 not to be invoked soon after the referendum. It surprises me that some Leavers say it shouldn't be.
The socks or the colleague?
Instead, he came back from the EU with a turd of a renegotiation. He then used up huge reserves of goodwill, trying to sell this as some relic of the true Cross. Complete with magical healing powers. At least he has the humility to not mention this now. Instead, we get all the arguments trotted out that would have been trotted out without any renegotiation. Which just reinforces how much of a sham it was.
I shall still be sad to see Cameron go. Osborne? Not so much....
I think the government's relentless negativity is currently doing more harm than any actual consequence of leaving the EU will.
Dan Hodges @DPJHodges 5m5 minutes ago
What's the statute of limitations on antisemitism in the Labour party. Is it 2 years? A bit longer?
Real, scientific, scepticism is, of course, to be encouraged, but the sort of idiotic, pig-headed denial that is rife on the internet and media shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone.
Worth noting the fourth IPCC report got its predictions entirely wrong, which nevertheless led to them (for the fifth) increasing their confidence in their own predictions to (I think) 95%.
That's not science. That's a Blair-level of buying your own bullshit.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/27/million-people-uk-living-destitution-joseph-rowntree-foundation
Bulls##t.
Shame on you Corbyn - she needs to go, if you were serious about the problem you would do it.
"fulsome apology" lol
Pollsters and people like Crosby talk of direction of travel, the momentum is indisputably with Leave despite everything chucked at us.
" I come from a big family.
Mammals...."
Still not a lot of Tory MPs behind Cameron shouting support during academy spat. Like last week
@JamesTapsfield: Corbyn says there is a pattern developing at PMQs. Cameron obliges by replying that the pattern is he's rubbish
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Adventures-Edric-Hero-Hornska-Book-ebook/dp/B01DOSP9ZK/
Unlike Jeremy Hardy, I'm afraid it's not very politically correct (most people seem to like that, although I do have one 2* review from a lady who didn't).
It didn't change anything either way. And this is on a stupid policy by the government.
But he has a bigger problem, to make a decision on Naz Shah, which it appears he has stuck his head in the sand and gone la la la, don't want to upset my mates at the Finsbury Park Mosque.
Also it's too risky for him to talk about the doctors' strike given that a gag about "Labour friends of strikers outweighing Labour friends of Israel" wouldn't be helpful, and that being portrayed as supporting any strike, no matter how well justified, never plays well for Labour.
@AndrewSparrow: My snap PMQs verdict - https://t.co/fglQmXbV2L - Corbyn discovers repeats are often a disappointment
...with reference to Farage...