12:01pm: Cameron and Osborne to have a 'tete-a-tete'
The Prime Minister's spokesperson has said Mr Cameron and the US President are expected to have a tete-a-tete meeting, accompanied only by a few senior aides, shortly after the President's arrival at Downing Street.
Seems we know now why Osborne doesn't care what the British public or backbench MPs think of him. He has been made POTUS.
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
That does not make what Farage says any less contemptible. That is the same Farage, by the way, who went to Holland to actively campaign in their recent referendum.
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
It's like suggesting that someone from an Irish Nationalist background is not well-disposed towards the UK. It may or may not be true, but it's hardly outrageous.
Mr. Eagles, Cameron's very keen to win the referendum. A shame he didn't show such vigour negotiating a deal worth defending.
Cameron is as much of a lamb internationally as he is a lion domestically.
You see him as a lion? I see him more as a serpent.
I thought the Lib Dems viewed Cameron as a black widow spider
That too, Mr Eagles. And as a toad.
Also as a chameleon, so you never know where you are with him.
And what I find particularly interesting in recent weeks is how many erswthile Conservatives have now come round to the Lib Dem point of view. Caameron is not to be trusted over anything.
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
It's like suggesting that someone from an Irish Nationalist background is not well-disposed towards the UK. It may or may not be true, but it's hardly outrageous.
I just don't get the Leave message strategy here. By making stupid comments about Obama's motivation they are just keeping his opinions in the media timestream for longer than necessary. Ignore him for the day - there'll be loads of picture of him and the Queen and then he'll be gone.
Mark Fergusson: Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage both have family ties to Germany, a country that has far greater ancestral animosity to Britain than Kenya
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
It's like suggesting that someone from an Irish Nationalist background is not well-disposed towards the UK. It may or may not be true, but it's hardly outrageous.
I just don't get the Leave message strategy here. By making stupid comments about Obama's motivation they are just keeping his opinions in the media timestream for longer than necessary. Ignore him for the day - there'll be loads of picture of him and the Queen and then he'll be gone.
Not often I write this.....but they really should have taken a leaf out of Eck's book......have a go at Cameron, by all means, but not Obama......
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
It's like suggesting that someone from an Irish Nationalist background is not well-disposed towards the UK. It may or may not be true, but it's hardly outrageous.
It seems to be many leading remainers, particularly the commentariat, are running this campaign in their imaginations.
There is zero effort to identify, meet or understand the millions of ordinary people who, win or lose, will have voted to leave.
At the risk of being mocked, I should point out that "no overall majority" in the Scottish Parliament elections is 10/1. The SNP look to be heading for a majority, but not by all that much...
And if they lose MSPs as quickly as they lose MPs.........
"Popular" Ruth Davidson: Stood for election 3 times. Finished 3rd, 4th & 4th. Never won more than 6% of the vote.
You don’t have to be a crank to be an Outer but the Out campaign seems disproportionately stuffed with cranks. You know, the kinds of people who screech that people voting to Remain are nothing more than Vichy-style collaborators. One day, you’d hope, these people will be ashamed of this kind of talk but I wouldn’t want to wager too much money on that proposition. They might, however, want to reflect on the thought that careless talk costs votes.
I can;t help thinking that people are criticising the leave movement as they imagine it to be, rather than as it is.
Indeed. On the previous thread CarlottaVance has quoted a piece by Dominic Raab which she says insults Obama. It really doesn't. Anyone who can read the piece quoted and see an insult probably needs to be in one of those university safe spaces.
Which part of "frankly wanton double standards" and "frankly absurd" do you regard as compliments?
Gove is the past master of the polite insult- something his colleagues could learn.
As Alex Massie observed "a lot of angry people"....
CCHQ seem to be panicking today , Carlotta doing a double shift
The Leave campaign needs to make clears that Remain means more domination by the Eurozone, and free movement for 65 million Ukrainians and 75 million Turks.
What stood out to me from the focus group is that Leave need to drum home the message that voting for "Remain" does not equal voting for the status quo.
Some of us have been saying that from the start.
The Leave campaign - so far - should win awards for how sh*t it is.
Disagree. Remain is not the status quo can only be understood as a double negative. LEAVE needs to present a clear and credible set of benefits: Leave means (a), (b), (c) ... And stick to it. No agenda on bringing down the EU or changing it. What other countries want to do is up to them.
The problem is that Leave is disparate bunch of people that don't agree on anything much beyond leaving the EU.
Oh I agree with that. I've said repeatedly there's been too much about the push factors and not enough about the pull factors.
That's why I think it is - so far - a sh*t campaign.
The Leave campaign needs to make clears that Remain means more domination by the Eurozone, and free movement for 65 million Ukrainians and 75 million Turks.
Do you have a source for the population of Ukraine being 65 million
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
It's like suggesting that someone from an Irish Nationalist background is not well-disposed towards the UK. It may or may not be true, but it's hardly outrageous.
Two points:-
1. It's an irrelevance. No-one is going to be persuaded to vote Leave because they are bothered by Obama being influenced by his Dad in what he said about Brexit.
2. Obama's Dad - as I understand it - scarpered when Obama was very young. How likely is it that he was that much influenced by the history of the country of a father who was not around during his life?
It's just an ill-judged comment. As if those who suggest that Britain should remain in the EU can only be motivated by base motives or malice.
Just looking at Holyrood opinion polling and glance down at the pre/post IndyRef polling. I really was so very, very, very wrong about what would happen post Referendum - I thought not much would change but boy was I wrong.
Snp won 2011 with 13.7% lead
Average SNP lead in 8 polls prior to referendum: 5.5% Average SNP lead in 8 polls post referendum: 23.5% Average lead in last 8 poll: 32.5%
I'm upgrading my Galloway & West Dumfries tip to absolute guaranteed slam dunk would back at 1/10.
I've had a wee look at the Holyrood constituency betting markets and I think there may actually be a smidge of value.
South of Scotland is a tough Area for the SNP, currently all 3 border constituencies are non-SNP, Conservative, Labour and Conservative respectively from West to East.
Galloway & West Dumfries is currently Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition but with a majority of only 862, with the SNP in second place. This looks a slam dunk SNP gain but Ladbrokes are rating it as only a 63% chance of a gain. I will be backing this one all day long.
The analogous Westminster constituency takes in all of Dumfries whilst the Holyrood constituency takes in only half of it but with no Lib Dem presence to speak of I can only see the Labour vote breaking heavily for the SNP as they did last year. 4/7 Looks like a great price to back the SNP here.
Dumfriesshire is vastly harder to call. the Labour MP here has a personal vote and is respected also the consituency bears little relation to the Westminster constituency it overlaps so it would be foolish to try ad apply Westminster trends to this seat.
There is a real sense of disappointment amongst the Anti-Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition voters that they failed to kick out Mundell by a scant few hundred votes and the idea of his son getting a seat doesn't sit well with them. the Labour vote will drop, it will only go to the SNP. It would require a 7.5 point swing to the SNP for Lab to get them over the line. Evens on the SNP here feels like a gamble, 9/2 on Labour is betting on their personal vote to hold up. The 5/4 on Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition feels too short. They would be relying on the handful of Lib Dem voters to go to them and a near perfect vote split between Lab and SNP to win it. Like Dumfries and Galloway in Westminster election I would be willing to have a punt at 8/1 on the starts aligning but not 5/4.
Etrrick, roxburgh & Berwicks is a 1/8 Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition hold. I can't disagree with that. SNP won the Westminster version by a whisker and the Holyrood configuration is less favorable to them.
So SNP in Galloway & West Dumfries, Labour in Dumfriesshire with an SNP saver. ER&B to be left alone.
If anyone ever gets to the point of putting up markets for the regional lists, backing the SCons No.1 Glasgow candidate Adam WATP Tomkins might be inadvisable.
Mr. Eagles, Cameron's very keen to win the referendum. A shame he didn't show such vigour negotiating a deal worth defending.
Cameron is as much of a lamb internationally as he is a lion domestically.
You see him as a lion? I see him more as a serpent.
I thought the Lib Dems viewed Cameron as a black widow spider
That too, Mr Eagles. And as a toad.
Also as a chameleon, so you never know where you are with him.
And what I find particularly interesting in recent weeks is how many erswthile Conservatives have now come round to the Lib Dem point of view. Caameron is not to be trusted over anything.
Cameron has always believed that the UK should remain in the EU. All the contortions over the referendum and the "renegotiation" have been a smokescreen behind which to hide that belief. All the key players in the EU knew that was his position, as did anyone here who was not blinded by their animosity to the EU or by naive faith in Cameron's public pronouncements. If you start from that premise you can see why the "deal" lacks any real substance, why the leave Tories feel betrayed and why Cameron is campaigning so strongly for a remain vote.
I've had a wee look at the Holyrood constituency betting markets and I think there may actually be a smidge of value.
South of Scotland is a tough Area for the SNP, currently all 3 border constituencies are non-SNP, Conservative, Labour and Conservative respectively from West to East.
Galloway & West Dumfries is currently Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition but with a majority of only 862, with the SNP in second place. This looks a slam dunk SNP gain but Ladbrokes are rating it as only a 63% chance of a gain. I will be backing this one all day long.
The analogous Westminster constituency takes in all of Dumfries whilst the Holyrood constituency takes in only half of it but with no Lib Dem presence to speak of I can only see the Labour vote breaking heavily for the SNP as they did last year. 4/7 Looks like a great price to back the SNP here.
Dumfriesshire is vastly harder to call. the Labour MP here has a personal vote and is respected also the consituency bears little relation to the Westminster constituency it overlaps so it would be foolish to try ad apply Westminster trends to this seat.
There is a real sense of disappointment amongst the Anti-Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition voters that they failed to kick out Mundell by a scant few hundred votes and the idea of his son getting a seat doesn't sit well with them. the Labour vote will drop, it will only go to the SNP. It would require a 7.5 point swing to the SNP for Lab to get them over the line. Evens on the SNP here feels like a gamble, 9/2 on Labour is betting on their personal vote to hold up. The 5/4 on Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition feels too short. They would be relying on the handful of Lib Dem voters to go to them and a near perfect vote split between Lab and SNP to win it. Like Dumfries and Galloway in Westminster election I would be willing to have a punt at 8/1 on the starts aligning but not 5/4.
Etrrick, roxburgh & Berwicks is a 1/8 Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition hold. I can't disagree with that. SNP won the Westminster version by a whisker and the Holyrood configuration is less favorable to them.
So SNP in Galloway & West Dumfries, Labour in Dumfriesshire with an SNP saver. ER&B to be left alone.
If anyone ever gets to the point of putting up markets for the regional lists, backing the SCons No.1 Glasgow candidate Adam WATP Tomkins might be inadvisable.
In response to Sean F, it seems unlikely a Nazi Germany would have existed in the absence of a Communist Russia but the next question is what sort of Russia would have emerged if Bolshevism had failed ?
Democratic ? If so, a Russian version of Weimar with the continual threat of a military or nationalist takeover. Authoritarianism in central and Eastern Europe was the response to revolutionary Communism but would that have been the case with a democratic or nationalist Russia ?
I love the historical comments on PB. Better than any documentary.
For what it's worth, my mother's family were associated with Kerensky, Lenin's democratic social democrat rival - my great-grandfather was his legal adviser. My mum's view was that the family thought of him as a decent chap who would have done a civilised job, but he turned out to be a remote intellectual seemingly incapable of engaging with the urgent issues that ordinary people were worried about. "They demanded peace and bread, he offered them a constitution and detailed democracy". She felt it was tragic but inevitable that he lost.
On that basis, her family were willing to give the Bolsheviks a try, but within a few years it became clear that not having precisely the right opinions according to the leadership of the moment was physically dangerous (and you couldn't even pretend to conform safely, because the leadership might change its mind), so they left in 1922.
There was a nice story about my granddad, a jovial apolitical lawyer who was hard to intimidate. Two policemen came round to detain him one night. He asked them why, and they said he was wanted for interrogation in the morning.
"The morning! Why should we waste all that time? Have some vodka, let's play cards."
They looked at each other, laughed and sat down to play. Next morning they rolled up, all half-cut, at the police HQ, and his guards swore he was a very good fellow, incapable of counter-revolutionary intent. He was released after a token discussion.
Later on, I gather that the police became very much less amenable, but in those early days it was much more hit and miss.
Mr. Eagles, Cameron's very keen to win the referendum. A shame he didn't show such vigour negotiating a deal worth defending.
Cameron is as much of a lamb internationally as he is a lion domestically.
You see him as a lion? I see him more as a serpent.
I thought the Lib Dems viewed Cameron as a black widow spider
That too, Mr Eagles. And as a toad.
Also as a chameleon, so you never know where you are with him.
And what I find particularly interesting in recent weeks is how many erswthile Conservatives have now come round to the Lib Dem point of view. Caameron is not to be trusted over anything.
Cameron has always believed that the UK should remain in the EU. All the contortions over the referendum and the "renegotiation" have been a smokescreen behind which to hide that belief. All the key players in the EU knew that was his position, as did anyone here who was not blinded by their animosity to the EU or by naive faith in Cameron's public pronouncements. If you start from that premise you can see why the "deal" lacks any real substance, why the leave Tories feel betrayed and why Cameron is campaigning so strongly for a remain vote.
But it does not really explain why he stabs all his Cabinet colleagues in the back.
I've had a wee look at the Holyrood constituency betting markets and I think there may actually be a smidge of value.
South of Scotland is a tough Area for the SNP, currently all 3 border constituencies are non-SNP, Conservative, Labour and Conservative respectively from West to East.
Galloway & West Dumfries is currently Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition but with a majority of only 862, with the SNP in second place. This looks a slam dunk SNP gain but Ladbrokes are rating it as only a 63% chance of a gain. I will be backing this one all day long.
The analogous Westminster constituency takes in all of Dumfries whilst the Holyrood constituency takes in only half of it but with no Lib Dem presence to speak of I can only see the Labour vote breaking heavily for the SNP as they did last year. 4/7 Looks like a great price to back the SNP here.
D
Etrrick, roxburgh & Berwicks is a 1/8 Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition hold. I can't disagree with that. SNP won the Westminster version by a whisker and the Holyrood configuration is less favorable to them.
So SNP in Galloway & West Dumfries, Labour in Dumfriesshire with an SNP saver. ER&B to be left alone.
If anyone ever gets to the point of putting up markets for the regional lists, backing the SCons No.1 Glasgow candidate Adam WATP Tomkins might be inadvisable.
The Leave campaign needs to make clears that Remain means more domination by the Eurozone, and free movement for 65 million Ukrainians and 75 million Turks.
Do you have a source for the population of Ukraine being 65 million
I think it's about 45 million and I can't see them joining the EU anytime soon, given the country may split in two.
On that basis, her family were willing to give the Bolsheviks a try, but within a few years it became clear that not having precisely the right opinions according to the leadership of the moment was physically dangerous (and you couldn't even pretend to conform safely, because the leadership might change its mind), so they left in 1922.
The Leave campaign needs to make clears that Remain means more domination by the Eurozone, and free movement for 65 million Ukrainians and 75 million Turks.
Do you have a source for the population of Ukraine being 65 million
Turkey is a more realistic prospect.
Not while Greece & Cyprus each have a Veto its not......
Mr. Eagles, Cameron's very keen to win the referendum. A shame he didn't show such vigour negotiating a deal worth defending.
Cameron is as much of a lamb internationally as he is a lion domestically.
You see him as a lion? I see him more as a serpent.
I thought the Lib Dems viewed Cameron as a black widow spider
That too, Mr Eagles. And as a toad.
Also as a chameleon, so you never know where you are with him.
And what I find particularly interesting in recent weeks is how many erswthile Conservatives have now come round to the Lib Dem point of view. Caameron is not to be trusted over anything.
Cameron has always believed that the UK should remain in the EU. All the contortions over the referendum and the "renegotiation" have been a smokescreen behind which to hide that belief. All the key players in the EU knew that was his position, as did anyone here who was not blinded by their animosity to the EU or by naive faith in Cameron's public pronouncements. If you start from that premise you can see why the "deal" lacks any real substance, why the leave Tories feel betrayed and why Cameron is campaigning so strongly for a remain vote.
But it does not really explain why he stabs all his Cabinet colleagues in the back.
I doubt he gives a s*** about colleagues supporting Leave. Politics is a rough old trade .....
Either they get their act together next two weeks (including their tone) or this won't be close.
Whatever happens *none* of that should stop each of us who believes in it to keep campaigning and spreading the word, and fighting for the win regardless.
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
It's like suggesting that someone from an Irish Nationalist background is not well-disposed towards the UK. It may or may not be true, but it's hardly outrageous.
Two points:-
1. It's an irrelevance. No-one is going to be persuaded to vote Leave because they are bothered by Obama being influenced by his Dad in what he said about Brexit.
2. Obama's Dad - as I understand it - scarpered when Obama was very young. How likely is it that he was that much influenced by the history of the country of a father who was not around during his life?
It's just an ill-judged comment. As if those who suggest that Britain should remain in the EU can only be motivated by base motives or malice.
Obama is the president of the United States. He is not part Kenyan, he is fully American. Just as Boris is British. Calling Obama part-Kenyan is insulting him and his office. The family that brought him up is from Hawaii. What's more there is absolutely no evidence that he is anti-British. All Democrat presidents get labelled the same. Clinton certainly was.
Ken Clarke tells politics students Vladimir Putin will be the real winner if the UK votes to leave the EU. @universityofnottingham
This is despicable and insulting. What a rat.
I'm so sick and tired of Remainers trying to link our quest for full self-governance to Putin.
Beyond disgusting.
The problem is he is the only world leader endorsing leave. If I am wrong I am happy to be corrected but I do not know of any leader anywhere in favour of leave
Mr. Eagles, Cameron's very keen to win the referendum. A shame he didn't show such vigour negotiating a deal worth defending.
Cameron is as much of a lamb internationally as he is a lion domestically.
You see him as a lion? I see him more as a serpent.
I thought the Lib Dems viewed Cameron as a black widow spider
That too, Mr Eagles. And as a toad.
Also as a chameleon, so you never know where you are with him.
And what I find particularly interesting in recent weeks is how many erswthile Conservatives have now come round to the Lib Dem point of view. Caameron is not to be trusted over anything.
Cameron has always believed that the UK should remain in the EU. All the contortions over the referendum and the "renegotiation" have been a smokescreen behind which to hide that belief. All the key players in the EU knew that was his position, as did anyone here who was not blinded by their animosity to the EU or by naive faith in Cameron's public pronouncements. If you start from that premise you can see why the "deal" lacks any real substance, why the leave Tories feel betrayed and why Cameron is campaigning so strongly for a remain vote.
But it does not really explain why he stabs all his Cabinet colleagues in the back.
Cameron's primary concern is himself. Not his colleagues, and certainly not the party. That was simply a vehicle, which now likely lies wrecked in a ditch. Start from there.
The referendum is now in the collective conscience. The polls are now relevant.
Spot on. So the numbers next week will be interesting.
*gulp*
Its probably just me but it feels like Remain are already through some big plays, whereas leave have barely started.
With a full two months to go, where do Remain go after Obama?
I think Remain are playing this spot on (sadly).
Get all the big names backing you early on and then you can repeat ad nauseum their backing. During any debate a Remain supporter can easily appeal to authority over the economy (IMF etc) and international relations (Obama etc) and so on and so forth. Essentially Remain are making these big plays a matter of public record that can then be repeated to death by their own supporters for the next two months.
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
It's like suggesting that someone from an Irish Nationalist background is not well-disposed towards the UK. It may or may not be true, but it's hardly outrageous.
Obama does not have a Kenyan background. He was born in the US and was raised by his American mother and her American family. His Kenyan grandfather - who he did not meet, as far as I know - was imprisoned by the British. Obama referred to it in a book he wrote. And that's it.
Ken Clarke tells politics students Vladimir Putin will be the real winner if the UK votes to leave the EU. @universityofnottingham
This is despicable and insulting. What a rat.
I'm so sick and tired of Remainers trying to link our quest for full self-governance to Putin.
Beyond disgusting.
The problem is he is the only world leader endorsing leave. If I am wrong I am happy to be corrected but I do not know of any leader anywhere in favour of leave
John Howard (ex Australian PM) and Stephen Harper (ex Canadian PM) are both in favour of Brexit.
Current serving leaders of allied nations will never publicly support the defeat of our PM as that would be very rude and an effective breach of our alliance. But former leaders are free to speak their mind.
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
It's like suggesting that someone from an Irish Nationalist background is not well-disposed towards the UK. It may or may not be true, but it's hardly outrageous.
Obama does not have a Kenyan background. He was born in the US and was raised by his American mother and her American family. His Kenyan grandfather - who he did not meet, as far as I know - was imprisoned by the British. Obama referred to it in a book he wrote. And that's it.
I see there have been some posts about Neil Woodford's views on Brexit. He's certainly someone well worth listening to, and the Capital Economics report he commissioned is well worth a read (although of course Vicky Redwood has always been a Leaver, so the views of Capital Economics are no more independent than those of other institutions).
What has been less reported is Neil Woodford's views on the sectoral effects of Brexit:
"There are going to be some industries that we think will benefit and some that we think will suffer. I think the City will be disadvantaged by a Brexit, but of course it is likely that the currency will depreciate further if we do leave, and consequently it is likely some other industries may benefit from a weaker pound. So we need to factor that into our judgments about what we have got in the portfolio, where we are positioned and which companies we are happy with.
The referendum is now in the collective conscience. The polls are now relevant.
Spot on. So the numbers next week will be interesting.
*gulp*
Its probably just me but it feels like Remain are already through some big plays, whereas leave have barely started.
With a full two months to go, where do Remain go after Obama?
The Pope?
The lesson from 1975 is that after the campaign started, the vote barely shifted. The Government aims to do the same, by setting the grounds of the contest before the Purdah Rules kick in (and they tried to get out of those too).
The Government have won this battle, because they got the international backing (hear Paddy Ashdown last night on question time to hear why), and they got the £4500 number out there. IT's changed the form of the debate. and that's all they had to do .
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
No I don't suppose you do but there you go.
Irrespective of the gutter politics does it make sense to insult people like Obama. If, heaven help us, Leave win I hope Obama tells Boris & Farage to take a running jump when they come cap in hand asking for their independent trade deal with the US.
Mr. Eagles, Cameron's very keen to win the referendum. A shame he didn't show such vigour negotiating a deal worth defending.
Cameron is as much of a lamb internationally as he is a lion domestically.
You see him as a lion? I see him more as a serpent.
I thought the Lib Dems viewed Cameron as a black widow spider
That too, Mr Eagles. And as a toad.
Also as a chameleon, so you never know where you are with him.
And what I find particularly interesting in recent weeks is how many erswthile Conservatives have now come round to the Lib Dem point of view. Caameron is not to be trusted over anything.
Cameron has always believed that the UK should remain in the EU. All the contortions over the referendum and the "renegotiation" have been a smokescreen behind which to hide that belief. All the key players in the EU knew that was his position, as did anyone here who was not blinded by their animosity to the EU or by naive faith in Cameron's public pronouncements. If you start from that premise you can see why the "deal" lacks any real substance, why the leave Tories feel betrayed and why Cameron is campaigning so strongly for a remain vote.
Yes. To be non-partisan, Harold Wilson did exactly the same, in almost every detail. Cameron is actually keener, I think - he genuinely thinks that withdrawal would be a disaster (which is why I think that offering the referendum was wrong - you shouldn't offer the population a choice if you think that one answer will be a catastrophe). I don't remember Harold caring that much: politics for him was mostly about tactics with a dash of modest reform.
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
No I don't suppose you do but there you go.
Irrespective of the gutter politics does it make sense to insult people like Obama. If, heaven help us, Leave win I hope Obama tells Boris & Farage to take a running jump when they come cap in hand asking for their independent trade deal with the US.
The referendum is now in the collective conscience. The polls are now relevant.
Spot on. So the numbers next week will be interesting.
*gulp*
Its probably just me but it feels like Remain are already through some big plays, whereas leave have barely started.
With a full two months to go, where do Remain go after Obama?
The Pope?
The lesson from 1975 is that after the campaign started, the vote barely shifted. The Government aims to do the same, by setting the grounds of the contest before the Purdah Rules kick in (and they tried to get out of those too).
The Government have won this battle, because they got the international backing (hear Paddy Ashdown last night on question time to hear why), and they got the £4500 number out there. IT's changed the form of the debate. and that's all they had to do .
Point number 2 is complete tosh, animal welfare standards in Britain exceed those of the EU Pig farming here vs the Netherland and Denmark springs to mind.
I see there have been some posts about Neil Woodford's views on Brexit. He's certainly someone well worth listening to, and the Capital Economics report he commissioned is well worth a read (although of course Vicky Redwood has always been a Leaver, so the views of Capital Economics are no more independent than those of other institutions).
What has been less reported is Neil Woodford's views on the sectoral effects of Brexit:
"There are going to be some industries that we think will benefit and some that we think will suffer. I think the City will be disadvantaged by a Brexit, but of course it is likely that the currency will depreciate further if we do leave, and consequently it is likely some other industries may benefit from a weaker pound. So we need to factor that into our judgments about what we have got in the portfolio, where we are positioned and which companies we are happy with.
Why did you not highlight the fact that some industries will benefit? Is it because you only care about that which backs Remain, or you think we should have all our eggs in one industry and screw the others?
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
It's like suggesting that someone from an Irish Nationalist background is not well-disposed towards the UK. It may or may not be true, but it's hardly outrageous.
I think you are being a tad naive, it's fairly obvious which dog whistle he's blowing.
Generally speaking, the UK tends to have higher standards of animal protection than most European countries. That would remain the case if Brexit took place.
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
It's like suggesting that someone from an Irish Nationalist background is not well-disposed towards the UK. It may or may not be true, but it's hardly outrageous.
Obama does not have a Kenyan background. He was born in the US and was raised by his American mother and her American family. His Kenyan grandfather - who he did not meet, as far as I know - was imprisoned by the British. Obama referred to it in a book he wrote. And that's it.
So Farage was right then....
No, he wasn't. He asserted - without a shred of evidence - that Obama is anti-British.
And Conservatives don't care about animal welfare?
If the government tries to repeal those laws then the public can vote out the government. Its called democracy. Its possible for a party the public loses faith in to lose almost all of their seats in fact (see Canadian Tories and British Liberals and British Lib Dems as examples).
Point number 2 is complete tosh, animal welfare standards in Britain exceed those of the EU Pig farming here vs the Netherland and Denmark springs to mind.
Ditto Italy.
French slaughterhouse standards are so bad, the government instigated an emergency programme of inspections for potential animal welfare breaches at the beginning of the month.
Generally speaking, the UK tends to have higher standards of animal protection than most European countries. That would remain the case if Brexit took place.
Why did you not highlight the fact that some industries will benefit? Is it because you only care about that which backs Remain, or you think we should have all our eggs in one industry and screw the others?
Because the effect on the City is the controversial bit, which Leavers here have challenged.
Pretty much everyone agrees that Sterling will fall in the event of a Leave result, so why would I highlight that?
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
It's like suggesting that someone from an Irish Nationalist background is not well-disposed towards the UK. It may or may not be true, but it's hardly outrageous.
Obama does not have a Kenyan background. He was born in the US and was raised by his American mother and her American family. His Kenyan grandfather - who he did not meet, as far as I know - was imprisoned by the British. Obama referred to it in a book he wrote. And that's it.
So Farage was right then....
No, he wasn't. He asserted - without a shred of evidence - that Obama is anti-British.
You said he does not have a Kenyan background, he does. He removed a bust of Winston Churchill, he is the only person I have known to refer to BP as British Petroleum as it suited his agenda, need I go on?
I don't think the man in the street will be too bothered by it.
It's probably unfair, but I don't see anything "disgusting" about it.
I don't get what's "disgusting", either.
No I don't suppose you do but there you go.
Irrespective of the gutter politics does it make sense to insult people like Obama. If, heaven help us, Leave win I hope Obama tells Boris & Farage to take a running jump when they come cap in hand asking for their independent trade deal with the US.
Obama won't be President.
He will be until January 2017, seven months after the referendum takes place. If Leavers are to be believed we should be well on the way to having a highly advantageous trade deal with the Americans by that stage.
In response to Sean F, it seems unlikely a Nazi Germany would have existed in the absence of a Communist Russia but the next question is what sort of Russia would have emerged if Bolshevism had failed ?
Democratic ? If so, a Russian version of Weimar with the continual threat of a military or nationalist takeover. Authoritarianism in central and Eastern Europe was the response to revolutionary Communism but would that have been the case with a democratic or nationalist Russia ?
I love the historical comments on PB. Better than any documentary.
For what it's worth, my mother's family were associated with Kerensky, Lenin's democratic social democrat rival - my great-grandfather was his legal adviser. My mum's view was that the family thought of him as a decent chap who would have done a civilised job, but he turned out to be a remote intellectual seemingly incapable of engaging with the urgent issues that ordinary people were worried about. "They demanded peace and bread, he offered them a constitution and detailed democracy". She felt it was tragic but inevitable that he lost.
On that basis, her family were willing to give the Bolsheviks a try, but within a few years it became clear that not having precisely the right opinions according to the leadership of the moment was physically dangerous (and you couldn't even pretend to conform safely, because the leadership might change its mind), so they left in 1922.
There was a nice story about my granddad, a jovial apolitical lawyer who was hard to intimidate. Two policemen came round to detain him one night. He asked them why, and they said he was wanted for interrogation in the morning.
"The morning! Why should we waste all that time? Have some vodka, let's play cards."
They looked at each other, laughed and sat down to play. Next morning they rolled up, all half-cut, at the police HQ, and his guards swore he was a very good fellow, incapable of counter-revolutionary intent. He was released after a token discussion.
Later on, I gather that the police became very much less amenable, but in those early days it was much more hit and miss.
Comments
If you want something done properly, lock Farage in a shed before you start.
12:01pm: Cameron and Osborne to have a 'tete-a-tete'
The Prime Minister's spokesperson has said Mr Cameron and the US President are expected to have a tete-a-tete meeting, accompanied only by a few senior aides, shortly after the President's arrival at Downing Street.
Seems we know now why Osborne doesn't care what the British public or backbench MPs think of him. He has been made POTUS.
The rest of us will continue to ignore him.
Also as a chameleon, so you never know where you are with him.
And what I find particularly interesting in recent weeks is how many erswthile Conservatives have now come round to the Lib Dem point of view. Caameron is not to be trusted over anything.
All a bit silly, really.....
@johnbhess
Ken Clarke tells politics students Vladimir Putin will be the real winner if the UK votes to leave the EU. @universityofnottingham
There is zero effort to identify, meet or understand the millions of ordinary people who, win or lose, will have voted to leave.
Given the lack of detail in these stories on political composition, guess which party runs this council...
http://www.heraldscotland.com
/news/14446129.North_Lanarkshire_Council_probes_corruption_allegations/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-36112343
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/north-lanarkshire-council-probes-corruption-7809594#JgMpFxcKmjMosdVg.97
And I *am* Vote Leave in my local town.
I trust myself to do a better job.
1. It's an irrelevance. No-one is going to be persuaded to vote Leave because they are bothered by Obama being influenced by his Dad in what he said about Brexit.
2. Obama's Dad - as I understand it - scarpered when Obama was very young. How likely is it that he was that much influenced by the history of the country of a father who was not around during his life?
It's just an ill-judged comment. As if those who suggest that Britain should remain in the EU can only be motivated by base motives or malice.
I'm so sick and tired of Remainers trying to link our quest for full self-governance to Putin.
Beyond disgusting.
Snp won 2011 with 13.7% lead
Average SNP lead in 8 polls prior to referendum: 5.5%
Average SNP lead in 8 polls post referendum: 23.5%
Average lead in last 8 poll: 32.5%
I'm upgrading my Galloway & West Dumfries tip to absolute guaranteed slam dunk would back at 1/10.
I should equally criticise some UKIp'ers for putting their egos above their country.
I think the latter is worse.
If both were firm and united, with a good Leave campaign being run, this wouldn't even be close.
Such a tragedy.
On that basis, her family were willing to give the Bolsheviks a try, but within a few years it became clear that not having precisely the right opinions according to the leadership of the moment was physically dangerous (and you couldn't even pretend to conform safely, because the leadership might change its mind), so they left in 1922.
There was a nice story about my granddad, a jovial apolitical lawyer who was hard to intimidate. Two policemen came round to detain him one night. He asked them why, and they said he was wanted for interrogation in the morning.
"The morning! Why should we waste all that time? Have some vodka, let's play cards."
They looked at each other, laughed and sat down to play. Next morning they rolled up, all half-cut, at the police HQ, and his guards swore he was a very good fellow, incapable of counter-revolutionary intent. He was released after a token discussion.
Later on, I gather that the police became very much less amenable, but in those early days it was much more hit and miss.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/standards-probe-launched-john-whittingdale-7810078
Tax receipts from offshore oil and gas slumped to just £35m in the last financial year, according to figures from HM Revenue and Customs.
The latest figure compares with £2bn of tax revenue in the 2014-15 financial year.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-36111753
Turkey is a more realistic prospect.
On that basis, her family were willing to give the Bolsheviks a try, but within a few years it became clear that not having precisely the right opinions according to the leadership of the moment was physically dangerous (and you couldn't even pretend to conform safely, because the leadership might change its mind), so they left in 1922.
Hopefully it will not end in the same way ;-)
*gulp*
Either they get their act together next two weeks (including their tone) or this won't be close.
Whatever happens *none* of that should stop each of us who believes in it to keep campaigning and spreading the word, and fighting for the win regardless.
With a full two months to go, where do Remain go after Obama?
https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/723528478461702149
The Bank of England chooses someone absolutely appropriate to grace a banknote and with a great picture.
'Lord Bourne argues a UK exit from the EU would be a "serious backward step" for the climate change agenda'
Remain think everything relies on being in the EU.
Get all the big names backing you early on and then you can repeat ad nauseum their backing. During any debate a Remain supporter can easily appeal to authority over the economy (IMF etc) and international relations (Obama etc) and so on and so forth. Essentially Remain are making these big plays a matter of public record that can then be repeated to death by their own supporters for the next two months.
The Pope?
https://twitter.com/StrongerIn/status/723524304407810049
Current serving leaders of allied nations will never publicly support the defeat of our PM as that would be very rude and an effective breach of our alliance. But former leaders are free to speak their mind.
It's true, because Britain is totally incapable of passing its own animal welfare laws.
What has been less reported is Neil Woodford's views on the sectoral effects of Brexit:
"There are going to be some industries that we think will benefit and some that we think will suffer. I think the City will be disadvantaged by a Brexit, but of course it is likely that the currency will depreciate further if we do leave, and consequently it is likely some other industries may benefit from a weaker pound. So we need to factor that into our judgments about what we have got in the portfolio, where we are positioned and which companies we are happy with.
http://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/2016/03/03/funds-and-etfs/the-interview/woodford-adds-to-early-stage-businesses-amid-turbulence-and-dividend-cuts-pE9KOMaRA2bS4X96lfXh5K/article.html
The Government have won this battle, because they got the international backing (hear Paddy Ashdown last night on question time to hear why), and they got the £4500 number out there. IT's changed the form of the debate. and that's all they had to do .
Remain by at least 10 points now.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/636585/POPE-against-Brexit-Francis-wants-Britain-to-STAY-in-EU
Irrespective of the gutter politics does it make sense to insult people like Obama. If, heaven help us, Leave win I hope Obama tells Boris & Farage to take a running jump when they come cap in hand asking for their independent trade deal with the US.
and song birds are shot and in some cases pickled.
I think you are being a tad naive, it's fairly obvious which dog whistle he's blowing.
If the government tries to repeal those laws then the public can vote out the government. Its called democracy. Its possible for a party the public loses faith in to lose almost all of their seats in fact (see Canadian Tories and British Liberals and British Lib Dems as examples).
French slaughterhouse standards are so bad, the government instigated an emergency programme of inspections for potential animal welfare breaches at the beginning of the month.
https://twitter.com/StrongerIn/status/723495577938464768
Pretty much everyone agrees that Sterling will fall in the event of a Leave result, so why would I highlight that?
Agree on Turner, though.