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  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,504

    As someone who felt using EdM's dead Dad as a weapon against him was repulsive, I have to say proxy attacks on David Cameron via decisions his Dad took are pretty sickening too. Those who revelled in the Mail's attacks on Ralph Miliband, though, can hardly complain about what's happening now. They helped to create this culture.

    I agree with the overall sentiment. But wasn't it McBride and co who used family members as a proxy way of attacking politicians? That's where this culture originated.

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    As someone who felt using EdM's dead Dad as a weapon against him was repulsive, I have to say proxy attacks on David Cameron via decisions his Dad took are pretty sickening too. Those who revelled in the Mail's attacks on Ralph Miliband, though, can hardly complain about what's happening now. They helped to create this culture.

    I agree with the overall sentiment. But wasn't it McBride and co who used family members as a proxy way of attacking politicians? That's where this culture originated.

    Well, who's back in Labour HQ, as of February? McBride. Hence this weeks co-ordinated, personal attacks on Cameron.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    edited April 2016
    watford30 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    As someone who felt using EdM's dead Dad as a weapon against him was repulsive, I have to say proxy attacks on David Cameron via decisions his Dad took are pretty sickening too. Those who revelled in the Mail's attacks on Ralph Miliband, though, can hardly complain about what's happening now. They helped to create this culture.

    I agree with the overall sentiment. But wasn't it McBride and co who used family members as a proxy way of attacking politicians? That's where this culture originated.

    Well, who's back in Labour HQ, as of February? McBride. Hence this weeks co-ordinated, personal attacks on Cameron.
    He is? He was saying that Corbyn would be out by the autumn not long ago.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    valleyboy said:

    tyson said:

    You expect right wingers to be greedy, grasping, selfish, me, me, individuals.

    Or, to put it another way, human.
    Tyson us right! Tories are different, more selfish. Can always tell if a work colleague is a Tory. Always a struggle to get them to pay into the tea fund.
    Quite right. All proper tea is theft.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Well this goose is cooked, Cruz will win Wisconsin by 10-20 points.
    Trump will be lucky to win any delegates.

    I fully expect that Cruz will catch up with Trump in the betting markets before N.Y.

    No need to stay up, goodnight.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    Democrat turnout in Wisconsin: 84% white.

    If Bernie can't win this, he may as well drop out.

    Bernie will win alright, the crucial question is by how much.
    6 losses out of the last 7 races for Hillary.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Wanderer said:

    watford30 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    As someone who felt using EdM's dead Dad as a weapon against him was repulsive, I have to say proxy attacks on David Cameron via decisions his Dad took are pretty sickening too. Those who revelled in the Mail's attacks on Ralph Miliband, though, can hardly complain about what's happening now. They helped to create this culture.

    I agree with the overall sentiment. But wasn't it McBride and co who used family members as a proxy way of attacking politicians? That's where this culture originated.

    Well, who's back in Labour HQ, as of February? McBride. Hence this weeks co-ordinated, personal attacks on Cameron.
    He is? He was saying that Corbyn would be out by the autumn not long ago.
    He's Emily Thornberry's spin doctor.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016
    Wanderer said:

    watford30 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    As someone who felt using EdM's dead Dad as a weapon against him was repulsive, I have to say proxy attacks on David Cameron via decisions his Dad took are pretty sickening too. Those who revelled in the Mail's attacks on Ralph Miliband, though, can hardly complain about what's happening now. They helped to create this culture.

    I agree with the overall sentiment. But wasn't it McBride and co who used family members as a proxy way of attacking politicians? That's where this culture originated.

    Well, who's back in Labour HQ, as of February? McBride. Hence this weeks co-ordinated, personal attacks on Cameron.
    He is? He was saying that Corbyn would be out by the autumn not long ago.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/19/labour-hire-gordon-browns-disgraced-former-spin-doctor-as-an-adviser

    Rumoured to be getting on well with Milne.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Speedy said:

    Well this goose is cooked, Cruz will win Wisconsin by 10-20 points.
    Trump will be lucky to win any delegates.

    I fully expect that Cruz will catch up with Trump in the betting markets before N.Y.

    No need to stay up, goodnight.

    Trump will win CD3.

    Easily.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    Democrat turnout in Wisconsin: 84% white.

    If Bernie can't win this, he may as well drop out.

    Bernie will win alright, the crucial question is by how much.
    6 losses out of the last 7 races for Hillary.
    All white and rural.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,120
    Actually I am UK resident, and pay all my taxes in the UK- and do not even look for tax efficiencies. I paid quite a lot year in UK tax last year, and probably could have halved that if I'd been remotely bothered. But there again I could probably have maybe doubled my income, if I could be bothered too.

    The other thing I failed to mention about right wingers, is (aside from being predominantly greedy graspers) that they are proned to fits of jealousy and envy, especially if said person is a lefty.


    watford30 said:

    A few lefties Tyson....most of the media & entertainment industry set their affairs to be tax efficient eg until recently most of the talent at the BBC.

    Funny how Tyson chooses to reside in 'hideously white' Italy, where tax evasion is considered by most to be a national pastime.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Danny565 said:

    Wanderer said:

    watford30 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    As someone who felt using EdM's dead Dad as a weapon against him was repulsive, I have to say proxy attacks on David Cameron via decisions his Dad took are pretty sickening too. Those who revelled in the Mail's attacks on Ralph Miliband, though, can hardly complain about what's happening now. They helped to create this culture.

    I agree with the overall sentiment. But wasn't it McBride and co who used family members as a proxy way of attacking politicians? That's where this culture originated.

    Well, who's back in Labour HQ, as of February? McBride. Hence this weeks co-ordinated, personal attacks on Cameron.
    He is? He was saying that Corbyn would be out by the autumn not long ago.
    He's Emily Thornberry's spin doctor.
    Now there's a tough job.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    watford30 said:

    Wanderer said:

    watford30 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    As someone who felt using EdM's dead Dad as a weapon against him was repulsive, I have to say proxy attacks on David Cameron via decisions his Dad took are pretty sickening too. Those who revelled in the Mail's attacks on Ralph Miliband, though, can hardly complain about what's happening now. They helped to create this culture.

    I agree with the overall sentiment. But wasn't it McBride and co who used family members as a proxy way of attacking politicians? That's where this culture originated.

    Well, who's back in Labour HQ, as of February? McBride. Hence this weeks co-ordinated, personal attacks on Cameron.
    He is? He was saying that Corbyn would be out by the autumn not long ago.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/19/labour-hire-gordon-browns-disgraced-former-spin-doctor-as-an-adviser

    Rumoured to be getting on well with Milne.
    Well well. There's a thing.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,504
    Polruan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cameron can't make a simple statement that his family has never benefited from offshore tax planning. In my belief it simply isn't true.

    It's disingenuous to describe tax avoidance as "complying with the law". It's true that it's not breaking the law but it's not seen as that acceptable. It's not a smear to accuse a person of doing something they themselves have condemned (it may be a lie, but that's different).

    This is David Cameron's view of what you call "complying with the law":

    "Again let me put my cards squarely on the table. Of course there is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. Evasion is illegal. It can and should be subject to the full force of the criminal law. But what about tax avoidance? Now of course there’s nothing wrong with sensible tax planning and there are some things that governments want people to do that reduce tax bills, such as investing in a pension, a start up business or giving money to a charity. But there are some forms of avoidance that have become so aggressive that I think it is right to say these raise ethical issues, and it is time to call for more responsibility and for governments to act accordingly.

    In the UK we’ve already committed hundreds of millions into this effort, but acting alone has its limits. Clamp down in one country and the travelling caravan of lawyers, accountants and financial gurus will just move on elsewhere. So we need to act together, including at the G8. If there are difficult questions about whether existing standards are tough enough to tackle avoidance we need to ask them. If there are options for more multilateral deals on automatic information exchange to catch tax evaders we need to explore them."

    Broadly, it seems he'd like the rule of law to be discarded if enables those who pay too little tax to be more easily, and copiously, taxed. And he thinks it's an ethical issue.
    He is saying the law should be changed. As it has been. But if you comply with the law you are acting legally. There is no criminal offence of acting unethically. And other politicians and journalists are the last people to proclaim on ethics.

    Whatever one may think of bankers, there have been more MPs jailed for fraud than bankers and the press - both companies such as the Guardian and journalists have been energetic in minimising their tax in ways which have been legal - whatever I or anyone else may think of their ethics.

    We have the rule of law in this country, a precious thing, and not something to be discarded to enable people to make up some ethical compass whose guiding principle seems to be to find the best way of attacking one's political opponents
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    Democrat turnout in Wisconsin: 84% white.

    If Bernie can't win this, he may as well drop out.

    Bernie will win alright, the crucial question is by how much.
    6 losses out of the last 7 races for Hillary.
    All white and rural.
    New York polls are still tightening :D
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Danny565 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    Democrat turnout in Wisconsin: 84% white.

    If Bernie can't win this, he may as well drop out.

    Bernie will win alright, the crucial question is by how much.
    6 losses out of the last 7 races for Hillary.
    All white and rural.
    New York polls are still tightening :D
    By 1 point lol
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,417
    edited April 2016

    TOPPING said:

    Late to the party but...sorry if you don't know who plays at Loftus Road or Selhurst Park or which stops are adjacent to Bond St and are a grown up interested in the world around you, you really don't have any business wanting to be Mayor of London.

    Well, that depends if you can read a map or listen to the Sonia announcements.

    In real life, knowing the connections is more useful. For instance, I'd find more telling finding out if people know how to get from London Bridge to Heathrow by tube with a suitcase.

    (Edit: don't answer, Sunil - I know *you* know...)

    London Bridge to Gatwick is much easier - there are direct trains :)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    edited April 2016

    Has Sadiq said that he will step down as an MP if he wins? Or will he double up?

    If he keeps his seat he could be a good punt for next leader.

    MikeL said:

    I wouldn't expect anyone to know every tube station in London.

    But not knowing the stations on the Central Line in the very middle of London does give the impression of someone who knows very, very little about London.

    I'd let him off on that one. I live pretty centrally (Holloway Road) and use buses or tubes 7 days a week. I wouldn't have known any of those, and I don't care if the Mayor does or not. We're not playing Trivial Pursuit.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,417
    MTimT said:

    TOPPING said:

    Late to the party but...sorry if you don't know who plays at Loftus Road or Selhurst Park or which stops are adjacent to Bond St and are a grown up interested in the world around you, you really don't have any business wanting to be Mayor of London.

    Well, that depends if you can read a map or listen to the Sonia announcements.

    In real life, knowing the connections is more useful. For instance, I'd find more telling finding out if people know how to get from London Bridge to Heathrow by tube with a suitcase.

    (Edit: don't answer, Sunil - I know *you* know...)
    Easy. Taxi to Hounslow East. Picadilly Line to your terminal.
    Piccadilly line (small case "l")
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Any of you lot out at the PB pub meet in the smoke on Friday ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Hah

    Neither Hillary nor Trump "waltzers", more clod hoppers.
  • LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    edited April 2016
    Trump should win CDs 7 and 8, decent chance with 1 and 3.

    Given the large number ND delegates Trump picked up, any are a bonus.

    https://twitter.com/GaryEmineth/status/717150827064852480
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    LondonBob said:

    Trump should win CDs 7 and 8, decent chance with 1 and 3.

    Given the large number ND delegates Trump picked up, any are a bonus.

    https://twitter.com/GaryEmineth/status/717150827064852480

    CD3 looks likely... surely he can't get 4 and lose the state by 5%+ ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Someone apparently switched their vote from Trump to Cruz over his abortion comments.

    That's a particularly special level of logic.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,770
    Cyclefree said:

    Polruan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cameron can't make a simple statement that his family has never benefited from offshore tax planning. In my belief it simply isn't true.

    It's disingenuous to describe tax avoidance as "complying with the law". It's true that it's not breaking the law but it's not seen as that acceptable. It's not a smear to accuse a person of doing something they themselves have condemned (it may be a lie, but that's different).

    This is David Cameron's view of what you call "complying with the law":

    "Again let me put my cards squarely on the table. Of course there is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. Evasion is illegal. It can and should be subject to the full force of the criminal law. But what about rds are tough enough to tackle avoidance we need to ask them. If there are options for more multilateral deals on automatic information exchange to catch tax evaders we need to explore them."

    Broadly, it seems he'd like the rule of law to be discarded if enables those who pay too little tax to be more easily, and copiously, taxed. And he thinks it's an ethical issue.
    He is saying the law should be changed. As it has been. But if you comply with the law you are acting legally. There is no criminal offence of acting unethically. And other politicians and journalists are the last people to proclaim on ethics.

    Whatever one may think of bankers, there have been more MPs jailed for fraud than bankers and the press - both companies such as the Guardian and journalists have been energetic in minimising their tax in ways which have been legal - whatever I or anyone else may think of their ethics.

    We have the rule of law in this country, a precious thing, and not something to be discarded to enable people to make up some ethical compass whose guiding principle seems to be to find the best way of attacking one's political opponents
    Money allows you to bend and stretch the law. This discredits law, because de facto there is one law for the rich and one for the rest. I suspect the number of banker prosecutions is not a reliable guide to how many bankers have broken the law. It might be a guide to how expensive it is to prosecute bankers.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Would any of the people saying 41% like to make a bet with me?!

    http://edition.cnn.com/specials/politics/predict
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Cyclefree said:

    Polruan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cameron can't make a simple statement that his family has never benefited from offshore tax planning. In my belief it simply isn't true.

    He is saying the law should be changed. As it has been. But if you comply with the law you are acting legally. There is no criminal offence of acting unethically. And other politicians and journalists are the last people to proclaim on ethics.

    Whatever one may think of bankers, there have been more MPs jailed for fraud than bankers and the press - both companies such as the Guardian and journalists have been energetic in minimising their tax in ways which have been legal - whatever I or anyone else may think of their ethics.

    We have the rule of law in this country, a precious thing, and not something to be discarded to enable people to make up some ethical compass whose guiding principle seems to be to find the best way of attacking one's political opponents
    Like it or not, there's two clear points: tax planning (which is fine, and is tax minimisation in a manner incentivised and anticipated by legislation), and tax evasion, which is criminal. In between there's tax avoidance which is seeking to benefit in a manner not anticipated by Parliament in drafting the relevant statute.

    Film tax incentives were one such case. The law was pretty clear but the widespread exploitation of the various forms of relief was seen as aggressive avoidance and the courts are trying very hard to find ways to find the planning to be ineffective. David Cameron, talking about Jimmy Carr, didn't say "it's a fair cop, he complied with the law, and it's the Treasury's fault for putting forward bad law, but at least we changed it now". He described K2 as "dodgy", "completely wrong", "morally wrong" and backed Osborne's description of it as "morally repugnant".

    It's true that this ambiguous space between planning and evasion is used to attack political opponents to a degree, but it's also true that there is political consensus that avoidance is unacceptable. As such, any politician who gets involved with it has got problems. I don't necessarily agree with the political consensus, but I can't see any grounds for defending politicians who go in for that kind of hypocrisy.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Polruan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cameron can't make a simple statement that his family has never benefited from offshore tax planning. In my belief it simply isn't true.

    It's disingenuous to describe tax avoidance as "complying with the law". It's true that it's not breaking the law but it's not seen as that acceptable. It's not a smear to accuse a person of doing something they themselves have condemned (it may be a lie, but that's different).

    This is David Cameron's view of what you call "complying with the law":

    "Again let me put my cards squarely on the table. Of course there is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. Evasion is illegal. It can and should be subject to the full force of the criminal law. But what about rds are tough enough to tackle avoidance we need to ask them. If there are options for more multilateral deals on automatic information exchange to catch tax evaders we need to explore them."

    Broadly, it seems he'd like the rule of law to be discarded if enables those who pay too little tax to be more easily, and copiously, taxed. And he thinks it's an ethical issue.
    He is saying the law should be changed. As it has been. But if you comply with the law you are acting legally. There is no criminal offence of acting unethically. And other politicians and journalists are the last people to proclaim on ethics.

    Whatever one may think of bankers, there have been more MPs jailed for fraud than bankers and the press - both companies such as the Guardian and journalists have been energetic in minimising their tax in ways which have been legal - whatever I or anyone else may think of their ethics.

    We have the rule of law in this country, a precious thing, and not something to be discarded to enable people to make up some ethical compass whose guiding principle seems to be to find the best way of attacking one's political opponents
    Money allows you to bend and stretch the law. This discredits law, because de facto there is one law for the rich and one for the rest. I suspect the number of banker prosecutions is not a reliable guide to how many bankers have broken the law. It might be a guide to how expensive it is to prosecute bankers.
    It's more a reflection of the difficulty of prosecuting complex financial cases.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,417
    Pulpstar said:

    Any of you lot out at the PB pub meet in the smoke on Friday ?

    Which PB Meet?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    " It's made more complicated by Cruz's mastery of the intricate rules and details of the nominating process -- which has left Trump crying foul and threatening lawsuits in states like Louisiana, where Cruz netted 10 more delegates than Trump even though Trump won the state." ~ CNN

    Eh, hasn't Trump got 18, same as Cruz, with 5 unclear?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,823
    For those of you with a sense of humour, you may wish to go to http://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-eu-or-leave-the-eu/ and view the results of the EU ref poll for 11 April 2016...six days before it's published... :)

    ( they've typoed the date of tge GQRR poll from 1st to 11th... :) )
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,504
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Polruan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cameron can't make a simple statement that his family has never benefited from offshore tax planning. In my belief it simply isn't true.

    It's disingenuous to describe tax avoidance as "complying with the law". It's true that it's not breaking the law but it's not seen as that acceptable. It's not a smear to accuse a person of doing something they themselves have condemned (it may be a lie, but that's different).

    This is David Cameron's view of what you call "complying with the law":

    "Again let me put my cards squarely on the table. Of course there is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. Evasion is illegal. It can and should be subject to the full force of the criminal law. But what about rds are tough enough to tackle avoidance we need to ask them. If there are options for more multilateral deals on automatic information exchange to catch tax evaders we need to explore them."

    Broadly, it seems he'd like the rule of law to be discarded if enables those who pay too little tax to be more easily, and copiously, taxed. And he thinks it's an ethical issue.
    He is saying the law should be changed. As it has been. But if you comply with the law you are acting legally. There is no criminal offence of acting unethically. And other politicians and journalists are the last people to proclaim on ethics.

    Whatever one may think of bankers, there have been more MPs jailed for fraud than bankers and the press - both companies such as the Guardian and journalists have been energetic in minimising their tax in ways which have been legal - whatever I or anyone else may think of their ethics.

    We have the rule of law in this country, a precious thing, and not something to be discarded to enable people to make up some ethical compass whose guiding principle seems to be to find the best way of attacking one's political opponents
    Money allows you to bend and stretch the law. This discredits law, because de facto there is one law for the rich and one for the rest. I suspect the number of banker prosecutions is not a reliable guide to how many bankers have broken the law. It might be a guide to how expensive it is to prosecute bankers.
    I was talking of banker convictions. If you include prosecutions leading to acquittals the rate is worse.

    Still I agree that there should not be one law for the rich and one for the poor. I trust you will be supporting the campaign to get the cuts in Legal Aid reversed! :)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Why has Hillary's price on Betfair lengthened so much tonight?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,770
    edited April 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Polruan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cameron can't make a simple statement that his family has never benefited from offshore tax planning. In my belief it simply isn't true.

    It's disingenuous to describe tax avoidance as "complying with the law". It's true that it's not breaking the law but it's not seen as that acceptable. It's not a smear to accuse a person of doing something they themselves have condemned (it may be a lie, but that's different).

    This is David Cameron's view of what you call "complying with the law":

    "Again let me put my cards squarely on the table. Of course there is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. Evasion is illegal. It can and should be subject to the full force of the criminal law. But what about rds are tough enough to tackle avoidance we need to ask them. If there are options for more multilateral deals on automatic information exchange to catch tax evaders we need to explore them."

    Broadly, it seems he'd like the rule of law to be discarded if enables those who pay too little tax to be more easily, and copiously, taxed. And he thinks it's an ethical issue.
    He is saying the law should be changed. As it has been. But if you comply with the law you are acting legally. There is no criminal offence of acting unethically. And other politicians and journalists are the last people to proclaim on ethics.

    Whatever one may think of bankers, there have been more MPs jailed for fraud than bankers and the press - both companies such as the Guardian and journalists have been energetic in minimising their tax in ways which have been legal - whatever I or anyone else may think of their ethics.

    We have the rule of law in this country, a precious thing, and not something to be discarded to enable people to make up some ethical compass whose guiding principle seems to be to find the best way of attacking one's political opponents
    Money allows you to bend and stretch the law. This discredits law, because de facto there is one law for the rich and one for the rest. I suspect the number of banker prosecutions is not a reliable guide to how many bankers have broken the law. It might be a guide to how expensive it is to prosecute bankers.
    I was talking of banker convictions. If you include prosecutions leading to acquittals the rate is worse.

    Still I agree that there should not be one law for the rich and one for the poor. I trust you will be supporting the campaign to get the cuts in Legal Aid reversed! :)
    Of Course the cuts are a disgrace, would be nice to see lawyers doing more to make law cheaper and less risky as well. £200 a letter = racketeering
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Polruan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cameron can't make a simple statement that his family has never benefited from offshore tax planning. In my belief it simply isn't true.

    snip
    I was talking of banker convictions. If you include prosecutions leading to acquittals the rate is worse.

    Still I agree that there should not be one law for the rich and one for the poor. I trust you will be supporting the campaign to get the cuts in Legal Aid reversed! :)
    The Legal Aid system that was being systematically abused by the impoverished filthy rich, like Asil Nadir?

    By all means reverse the cuts, but not until serious root and branch reform of the system as a whole, so that those in genuine need are helped, and not the blatant spongers.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Any of you lot out at the PB pub meet in the smoke on Friday ?

    Which PB Meet?
    Yes, I'll be there
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    Polruan said:



    Like it or not, there's two clear points: tax planning (which is fine, and is tax minimisation in a manner incentivised and anticipated by legislation), and tax evasion, which is criminal. In between there's tax avoidance which is seeking to benefit in a manner not anticipated by Parliament in drafting the relevant statute.

    Film tax incentives were one such case. The law was pretty clear but the widespread exploitation of the various forms of relief was seen as aggressive avoidance and the courts are trying very hard to find ways to find the planning to be ineffective. David Cameron, talking about Jimmy Carr, didn't say "it's a fair cop, he complied with the law, and it's the Treasury's fault for putting forward bad law, but at least we changed it now". He described K2 as "dodgy", "completely wrong", "morally wrong" and backed Osborne's description of it as "morally repugnant".

    It's true that this ambiguous space between planning and evasion is used to attack political opponents to a degree, but it's also true that there is political consensus that avoidance is unacceptable. As such, any politician who gets involved with it has got problems. I don't necessarily agree with the political consensus, but I can't see any grounds for defending politicians who go in for that kind of hypocrisy.

    Yes, I think that nails it precisely.

    As for Cameron, I don't think it's reasonable to blame him for whatever his father did, but he does seem to have got into difficulty over his finely-nuanced wording about present but not past or future benefits - the Telegraph front page is pretty damaging.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663

    Pulpstar said:

    Any of you lot out at the PB pub meet in the smoke on Friday ?

    Which PB Meet?
    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/03/26/after-the-latest-blow-up-david-herdson-says-now-is-the-time-to-back-401-kasich/

    REMINDER: The next PB gathering takes place at the Shooting Star, near Liverpool Street Station on Friday April 8th from about 1830.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663

    Why has Hillary's price on Betfair lengthened so much tonight?

    Has she broken Evens yet ?
  • LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    Trump has won late deciders 38 to 36.
    https://twitter.com/jolingkent/status/717479031860408320
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The gap between Trump and Sanders is down to about 2 with Betfair Exchange for next POTUS. Maybe it could close ever further with tonight's results...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,172
    Is WI winner takes all?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,417
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Any of you lot out at the PB pub meet in the smoke on Friday ?

    Which PB Meet?
    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/03/26/after-the-latest-blow-up-david-herdson-says-now-is-the-time-to-back-401-kasich/

    REMINDER: The next PB gathering takes place at the Shooting Star, near Liverpool Street Station on Friday April 8th from about 1830.
    Oops, I missed that thread!

    Given that it's a Friday, yes I should be able to make it
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    RobD said:

    Is WI winner takes all?

    No.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    AndyJS said:

    The gap between Trump and Sanders is down to about 2 with Betfair Exchange for next POTUS. Maybe it could close ever further with tonight's results...

    Best move is probably to lay Sanders after Wyoming.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Is WI winner takes all?

    No.
    It's WTA by district, no?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Any of you lot out at the PB pub meet in the smoke on Friday ?

    Which PB Meet?
    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/03/26/after-the-latest-blow-up-david-herdson-says-now-is-the-time-to-back-401-kasich/

    REMINDER: The next PB gathering takes place at the Shooting Star, near Liverpool Street Station on Friday April 8th from about 1830.
    I hope to be there. I'll be able to report exciting first-hand news from the front-line of Tory civil war in the shires. (The exciting news being that there is no Tory civil war in the shires, or at least not in this shire).
  • LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    Doing a reverse Speedy.

    As has been the case throughout the GOP primaries this year, there’s broad support in these preliminary Wisconsin results (seven in 10) for Trump’s proposal to ban non-U.S. Muslims from entering the country.
    Four in 10 GOP voters in Wisconsin say they made up their minds less than a month ago, similar to previous primaries, vs. six in 10 who decided in the last month.


    Great news for Trump on anti establishment and ideology of Republican voters.
    https://twitter.com/meetthepress/status/717472591292841988
    https://twitter.com/meetthepress/status/717473459534741506
    Of course I still expect Cruz to win but hope Trump picks up two or more CDs.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Wanderer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Is WI winner takes all?

    No.
    It's WTA by district, no?
    Yes.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    The gap between Trump and Sanders is down to about 2 with Betfair Exchange for next POTUS. Maybe it could close ever further with tonight's results...

    Best move is probably to lay Sanders after Wyoming.
    That's a good thought.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Bonnie Hare ‏@BJHare 3m3 minutes ago

    For what it's worth ABC and MSNBC have dueling exit polls in #WIPrimary. MSNBC says they favor Hillary. ABC says bernie. no details
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    Oh FFS, Joe marler has got a 2 match ban for his hey gypsy boy comment.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Wanderer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    The gap between Trump and Sanders is down to about 2 with Betfair Exchange for next POTUS. Maybe it could close ever further with tonight's results...

    Best move is probably to lay Sanders after Wyoming.
    That's a good thought.
    I'd do it myself if I wasn't stuck red like a pig on Bernie.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    LondonBob said:

    Doing a reverse Speedy.

    Would you mutually annihilate if you came into contact?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    So Trump advocates a policy on abortion which is law in the UK. And people then switch to Ted Cruz :P ?
  • LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    https://twitter.com/fdlreporter/status/717485475288756226

    According to #WIPrimary exit polls, 54% of GOP voters think trade costs American jobs. Why then would they vote for Mr.Obamatrade, Ted Cruz?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,823
    FPT @Sean_F

    One of those has got to be a typo, surely? Or have Populus just given up and started throwing octopuses at roulette wheels?
    Sean_F said:

    Two more EU Referendum polls from Populus (shown on the Britain Elects spreadsheet). Populus online Leave 45% Remain 39%. Populus phone Leave 37%, Remain 48%.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    Speedy said:
    Looks pretty plausible
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    LondonBob said:

    https://twitter.com/fdlreporter/status/717485475288756226

    According to #WIPrimary exit polls, 54% of GOP voters think trade costs American jobs. Why then would they vote for Mr.Obamatrade, Ted Cruz?

    The idea of Cruz the Unifier is one of those beyond satire moments.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016

    Speedy said:
    Looks pretty plausible
    Those are the Exit Poll numbers as published by the Huffington Post.
    I'm baffled how they show Late Deciders going for Trump but Cruz in the lead overall by 12.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:
    Looks pretty plausible
    Those are the Exit Poll numbers as published by the Huffington Post.
    I'm baffled how they show Late Deciders going for Trump but Cruz in the lead overall by 12.
    Couldn't sleep ?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Remember my prediction almost a week ago was Cruz 44 Trump 37.

    The Exit Polls say Cruz 47 Trump 35, so I underestimated Cruz by 3 and overestimated Trump by 2.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:
    Looks pretty plausible
    Those are the Exit Poll numbers as published by the Huffington Post.
    I'm baffled how they show Late Deciders going for Trump but Cruz in the lead overall by 12.
    Couldn't sleep ?
    I said what the heck lets see if I was right that Cruz is leading by double digits in the Exit Poll like I said.

    So I was right.
    And I gave you the opportunity to make some money by posting the Exit Poll numbers 2 hours early.

    What baffled me was that Trump won late deciders.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:
    Looks pretty plausible
    Those are the Exit Poll numbers as published by the Huffington Post.
    I'm baffled how they show Late Deciders going for Trump but Cruz in the lead overall by 12.
    Couldn't sleep ?
    I said what the heck lets see if I was right that Cruz is leading by double digits in the Exit Poll like I said.

    So I was right.
    And I gave you the opportunity to make some money by posting the Exit Poll numbers 2 hours early.

    What baffled me was that Trump won late deciders.
    Subsample error, perhaps.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:
    Looks pretty plausible
    Those are the Exit Poll numbers as published by the Huffington Post.
    I'm baffled how they show Late Deciders going for Trump but Cruz in the lead overall by 12.
    Couldn't sleep ?
    I said what the heck lets see if I was right that Cruz is leading by double digits in the Exit Poll like I said.

    So I was right.
    And I gave you the opportunity to make some money by posting the Exit Poll numbers 2 hours early.

    What baffled me was that Trump won late deciders.
    Subsample error, perhaps.
    2 different Exit Polls showed Trump winning Late Deciders by 2 points (1 in 4 voters).
    So it's not a subsample error.

    Maybe Trump trying to revive his campaign in the last few days had an effect.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Fun fact, the turnout in the Wisconsin primary is projected to be way above the GE turnout of 2012.
  • LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:
    Looks pretty plausible
    Those are the Exit Poll numbers as published by the Huffington Post.
    I'm baffled how they show Late Deciders going for Trump but Cruz in the lead overall by 12.
    Couldn't sleep ?
    I said what the heck lets see if I was right that Cruz is leading by double digits in the Exit Poll like I said.

    So I was right.
    And I gave you the opportunity to make some money by posting the Exit Poll numbers 2 hours early.

    What baffled me was that Trump won late deciders.
    Subsample error, perhaps.
    2 different Exit Polls showed Trump winning Late Deciders by 2 points (1 in 4 voters).
    So it's not a subsample error.

    Maybe Trump trying to revive his campaign in the last few days had an effect.
    First state I have seen where polls didn't have Trump's support leading in committed early.

    I think Trump's campaign in the past few days had an effect, these are small places so have a couple of thousand attending a rally has a big network effect. Hoping it had a sufficient effect in those four CDs Trump targeted.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    So do we have the figures from the 2nd exit poll that contrasted with the one you showed earlier?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    CNN are such prickteases lol
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    So do we have the figures from the 2nd exit poll that contrasted with the one you showed earlier?

    I only got the one published by the Huffington Post.

    But we know that 2 Exit Polls had Trump leading Cruz by 38-36 and 36-34 with Late deciders.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    Current ABC poll shows Bernie way ahead:

    http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/20160405_183849.jpg
  • LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    https://twitter.com/jolingkent/status/717495266828500994

    Of course we know Trump has almost as big a gender gap as Hilary does so looks like 5-10% Cruz lead?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    LondonBob said:

    https://twitter.com/jolingkent/status/717495266828500994

    Of course we know Trump has almost as big a gender gap as Hilary does so looks like 5-10% Cruz lead?

    Look if the Exit Poll hadn't been already published I would agree.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Why are Exit Polls being released two hours before the polls close? In any case they are incomplete!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    The gap between Trump and Sanders is down to about 2 with Betfair Exchange for next POTUS. Maybe it could close ever further with tonight's results...

    Best move is probably to lay Sanders after Wyoming.
    Thanks for the tip.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016
    justin124 said:

    Why are Exit Polls being released two hours before the polls close? In any case they are incomplete!

    Actually 3 hours.
    I needed an hour to find the tweet from Huffington Post with the numbers.

    But I agree.

    For Instance, the Early Deciders, the Women vote and this:

    https://twitter.com/CBSNLive/status/717475772596953090

    Point to Trump being in the high 30's, maybe low 40's and a small Cruz win not the blowout that the H.Post published.

    It looks like Trump performed as well as Illinois, but Cruz unified the opposition to Trump behind him, so he surpassed Trump.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Current ABC poll shows Bernie way ahead:

    http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/20160405_183849.jpg

    TBF, there's probably quite a few people for whom Sanders "inspires" them, but who ended up voting Hillary on pragmatic grounds.

    Personally I think this is shaping up as a bit of a disappointment for Bernie: he probably needed to win by 10%+, but I'm not sure he's going to get it.
  • LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    edited April 2016
    Speedy said:

    LondonBob said:

    https://twitter.com/jolingkent/status/717495266828500994

    Of course we know Trump has almost as big a gender gap as Hilary does so looks like 5-10% Cruz lead?

    Look if the Exit Poll hadn't been already published I would agree.
    I doubt Trump loses by 12%. Even the incorrect released after polls closed MO eventually got revised away from predicting a Cruz win.

    Either way.
    https://twitter.com/danpfeiffer/status/717492423346098177
    Trump winning a few CDs would shut the media up though.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited April 2016
    justin124 said:

    Why are Exit Polls being released two hours before the polls close? In any case they are incomplete!

    And men are voting later in the day than women so the exit polls have grossly overestimated Cruz, his campaign could end tonight.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,736
    Looks like Cruz and Sanders have won in Wisconsin, as expected, main question the margin but am not waiting up another two hours to get that full breakdown and will check the full results in the morning.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016
    3rd Exit Poll, the Fox News one, has Late Deciders going Cruz 38 Trump 36.

    Independents (1 in 4 voters)

    Trump 43
    Cruz 38
    Kasich 17

    Now again if the Exit Poll hadn't already been published by the H.Post, then I would have said closer than expected result.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Danny565 said:

    Current ABC poll shows Bernie way ahead:

    http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/20160405_183849.jpg

    TBF, there's probably quite a few people for whom Sanders "inspires" them, but who ended up voting Hillary on pragmatic grounds.

    Personally I think this is shaping up as a bit of a disappointment for Bernie: he probably needed to win by 10%+, but I'm not sure he's going to get it.
    Wisconsin is basically Michigan less Detroit so far as I can work out demographically. So yes, he should win...
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Fox News Exit Poll

    Moderates

    Trump 40
    Kasich 29
    Cruz 20
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    edited April 2016
    Black %

    16 Florida
    15 Illinois
    12 Missouri
    22 North Carolina
    12 Ohio

    Clinton wins !

    4 Arizona <- Clinton wins - perhaps alot of hispanic ?

    White states

    1 Idaho
    1 Utah
    3 Alaska
    2 Hawaii
    4 Washington
    6 Wisconsin
    1 Wyoming

    Sanders wins !

    But !

    Northeast seaboard incoming:

    16 New York
    10 Connecticut
    51 DC
    29 Maryland
    11 Pennsylvania
    6 Rhode Island

    Clinton should win except maybe Rhode Island ;p

    Then we have California. Which is whitish, but votes a bit like Arizona. Apparently.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Reminder how grim the situation for the GOP is:

    https://twitter.com/matthewjdowd/status/717502098850627585
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Speedy said:

    Reminder how grim the situation for the GOP is:

    https://twitter.com/matthewjdowd/status/717502098850627585

    If it's Ryan, they can wave goodbye to pretty much all the Trump voters and a good portion of the Ted Cruz voters won't bother.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    Reminder how grim the situation for the GOP is:

    https://twitter.com/matthewjdowd/status/717502098850627585

    If it's Ryan, they can wave goodbye to pretty much all the Trump voters and a good portion of the Ted Cruz voters won't bother.
    But think of the fun and chaos if Trump runs as an Independent.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016
    Angry with Government ( 1 in 3 voters)

    Cruz 48
    Trump 37
    Kasich 12

    Yep now I do believe the H.Post Exit Poll.
    First time that Trump has lost that group in an Exit Poll.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Danny565 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    Reminder how grim the situation for the GOP is:

    https://twitter.com/matthewjdowd/status/717502098850627585

    If it's Ryan, they can wave goodbye to pretty much all the Trump voters and a good portion of the Ted Cruz voters won't bother.
    But think of the fun and chaos if Trump runs as an Independent.
    I'll actually be doing better with Cruz as the nominee financially, but he just won't be as entertaining. I think Trump will pack it in if he doesn't get the nomination. But he won't go down quietly.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Well CNN speculated about a double digit Cruz victory and Trump getting 35 points, also they will project Wisconsin soon.

    So yet another indication that the Exit Poll from the H.Post is correct.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Jeffrey Scott ‏@jeffreyscott88 55s56 seconds ago

    I have an Army buddy said he has been standing in line 30 minutes in GreenBay to vote when the line started chanting "Trump" #WIPrimary


    Cruz must have completely crushed it in Milwaukee then !
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pulpstar said:

    Jeffrey Scott ‏@jeffreyscott88 55s56 seconds ago

    I have an Army buddy said he has been standing in line 30 minutes in GreenBay to vote when the line started chanting "Trump" #WIPrimary


    Cruz must have completely crushed it in Milwaukee then !

    About 35% of the population of Wisconsin live in Greater Milwaukee.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Watching CNN is alot more comforting than watching twitter or Betfair when you're laying Sanders :D
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Latest Betfair odds, next POTUS:

    Trump 8.8 / 9.0
    Sanders 9.6 / 10.5

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.107373419
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    AndyJS said:

    Latest Betfair odds, next POTUS:

    Trump 8.8 / 9.0
    Sanders 9.6 / 10.5

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.107373419

    Madness.
This discussion has been closed.