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  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    I was surprised by an article on the BBC News site yesterday claiming that children should know 200 words by their third birthday. it seems rather low: does anyone have more information, for instance what is meant by 'know' ?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35917037

    My 4 year old has started to use the word "prefer" correctly*. A lot. I have no idea whether this is normal or not...

    * As in "I'd prefer not to do what you told me, Daddy, I'd rather do this instead"
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    He's great box office

    Steve Hawkes
    Jacob Rees Mogg wonders re Nicky Morgan's mad inter-railing claim.."how Phileas Fogg managed to get around the world in 80 days without EU"

    So he wants to know how a fictional character went around the world in less than 80 days?
    Think he is just highlighting her ludicrous claim, Remainers seem more demented every day.
    Schrodinger's Leavers seem to want to abandon freedom of movement and retain it simultaneously.
    For most people in this country the cherished freedom of movement simply means standing at a customs post for 15-20 minutes longer on their annual holiday.

    Any regular traveller over the last 10 years has accepted much longer waits without problems due to heightened security.
    The response of the headbanger Leavers to Nicky Morgan's entirely reasonable point was an indication of how loosely tethered some of them are to reality. Either Britain has freedom of movement with EU countries or it does not. If it does not, there will be more bureaucracy and paperwork for those wishing to travel to them. That is the point of abandoning freedom of movement: it's not going to be one way only.

    It might be thought that is a price worth paying but it is loopy to think that there is no price.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:


    I am not arguing against teaching facts or some rote learning. Both have very important roles to play. I am arguing sgainst the amount of formalised testing that is now done. It leaves no time for anything else. I had no homework when I was at primary school. I don't get why it is now deemed necessary.

    formalised testing is cheap and profitable for the companies that run academies and produce the testing materials (you can bet they have directors in common, even if they are not done by the exact same company)
    Rupert Murdoch has it sorted. Pearson owns the exam boards, publishes the supporting materials (at extortionate prices, I might add) and is trying to muscle in on the actual running of schools too.

    My last head, who was no bleeding-heart liberal, talked of Establishment stitch-ups.
    Rupert Murdoch doesn't own Pearson, last time I looked.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    In my time at school "free thinking" was called skiving..and punished accordingly..and we still managed to cram for exams..

    It's certainly clear that it's made you, on the basis of what you post here, what you are today.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714

    Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL

    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?

    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Blimey, AEP not messing around today:

    "If [new trade rules with China are] correct, and if allowed to run its course, Europe would be finished as an industrial and military region. It would be civilisational suicide."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/30/britain-sacrifices-steel-industry-to-curry-favour-with-china/

    Why not look on his record. Is there any subject on which his Lamentations have turned out correctly? I'm still waiting for the immediate collapse of the Euro. He's a blowhard.
  • Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL

    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?

    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
    Was pure clickbait for you.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    He's great box office

    Steve Hawkes
    Jacob Rees Mogg wonders re Nicky Morgan's mad inter-railing claim.."how Phileas Fogg managed to get around the world in 80 days without EU"

    So he wants to know how a fictional character went around the world in less than 80 days?
    Think he is just highlighting her ludicrous claim, Remainers seem more demented every day.
    Schrodinger's Leavers seem to want to abandon freedom of movement and retain it simultaneously.
    I'm not aware of any particular Leave who wants both.

    Leavers are not fungible.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663

    A fly-over in India has collapsed:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-35933452

    Is Kolkata just Calcutta by another spelling?

    Yes, see also Mumbai/Bombay; Chennai/Madras
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    A fly-over in India has collapsed:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-35933452

    Is Kolkata just Calcutta by another spelling?

    Technically Calcutta is a mis-spelling of Kolkata.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714

    He's great box office

    Steve Hawkes
    Jacob Rees Mogg wonders re Nicky Morgan's mad inter-railing claim.."how Phileas Fogg managed to get around the world in 80 days without EU"

    So he wants to know how a fictional character went around the world in less than 80 days?
    Think he is just highlighting her ludicrous claim, Remainers seem more demented every day.
    Schrodinger's Leavers seem to want to abandon freedom of movement and retain it simultaneously.
    For most people in this country the cherished freedom of movement simply means standing at a customs post for 15-20 minutes longer on their annual holiday.

    Any regular traveller over the last 10 years has accepted much longer waits without problems due to heightened security.
    The response of the headbanger Leavers to Nicky Morgan's entirely reasonable point was an indication of how loosely tethered some of them are to reality. Either Britain has freedom of movement with EU countries or it does not. If it does not, there will be more bureaucracy and paperwork for those wishing to travel to them. That is the point of abandoning freedom of movement: it's not going to be one way only.

    It might be thought that is a price worth paying but it is loopy to think that there is no price.
    And for someone like yourself I accept that may mean a longer wait, but for the vast majority of Brits who only travel abroad once a year it's not a major issue.

    I'm quite happy to stand a bit longer in a queue if it means we can control our borders.

    Bring a book when travelling.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,253
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:


    I am not arguing against teaching facts or some rote learning. Both have very important roles to play. I am arguing sgainst the amount of formalised testing that is now done. It leaves no time for anything else. I had no homework when I was at primary school. I don't get why it is now deemed necessary.

    formalised testing is cheap and profitable for the companies that run academies and produce the testing materials (you can bet they have directors in common, even if they are not done by the exact same company)
    Rupert Murdoch has it sorted. Pearson owns the exam boards, publishes the supporting materials (at extortionate prices, I might add) and is trying to muscle in on the actual running of schools too.

    My last head, who was no bleeding-heart liberal, talked of Establishment stitch-ups.
    Rupert Murdoch doesn't own Pearson, last time I looked.
    Spoilsport!

    As is said of Science, 'Where many a beautiful theory is murdered by a single ugly fact'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson_PLC
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714

    Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL

    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?

    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
    Was pure clickbait for you.
    It worked :-)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL

    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?

    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
    More government spending is good news in your eyes? That's one way to look at it Gordon ...
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Charles said:



    A/S levels always existed, but were ramped up because the NUT complained that it was outrageous to have a single pass/fail test for children.

    Basically the NUT don't want any way to objectively monitor the performance of their members. That's probably in the interests of their members (don't forget they also reject rewarding the best teachers) but not in the best interests of the children.

    A/S levels were introduced in the early 90s, as far as I remember.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,433
    edited March 2016

    Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL

    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?

    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
    Was pure clickbait for you.
    It worked :-)
    I've got a clickbaity thread coming up soon, contains the question

    'Is Nicola Sturgeon stupid?'*

    As I combine two PB favourites, What does Brexit really mean for Scottish Independence.

    *Answer is no
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    Charles said:



    A/S levels always existed, but were ramped up because the NUT complained that it was outrageous to have a single pass/fail test for children.

    Basically the NUT don't want any way to objectively monitor the performance of their members. That's probably in the interests of their members (don't forget they also reject rewarding the best teachers) but not in the best interests of the children.

    A/S levels were introduced in the early 90s, as far as I remember.
    I think they were supposed to address the narrowness of the 6th form curriculum
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714

    Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL

    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?

    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
    More government spending is good news in your eyes? That's one way to look at it Gordon ...
    If it means the facts we run the economy are more accurate yes.

    Would you refuse to spend money in your business to upgrade your IT ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663


    The response of the headbanger Leavers to Nicky Morgan's entirely reasonable point was an indication of how loosely tethered some of them are to reality.

    I'll make sure to conduct a social attitude survey at the next heavy metal concert/festival I head to :p
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited March 2016
    matt..It would appear from your posts that you spent a lot of time.."free thinking". ..whereas I went on to gain Mining Engineering Qualifications and latterly have shot hundreds of hours of TV programmes..which demand a modicum of creative thinking...and all done without having a smart phone.
    .
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I thought my classmates did them in the 80s when trying to be extra swottish/applying to Oxbridge.

    Charles said:



    A/S levels always existed, but were ramped up because the NUT complained that it was outrageous to have a single pass/fail test for children.

    Basically the NUT don't want any way to objectively monitor the performance of their members. That's probably in the interests of their members (don't forget they also reject rewarding the best teachers) but not in the best interests of the children.

    A/S levels were introduced in the early 90s, as far as I remember.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Charles said:

    He's great box office

    Steve Hawkes
    Jacob Rees Mogg wonders re Nicky Morgan's mad inter-railing claim.."how Phileas Fogg managed to get around the world in 80 days without EU"

    So he wants to know how a fictional character went around the world in less than 80 days?
    Think he is just highlighting her ludicrous claim, Remainers seem more demented every day.
    Schrodinger's Leavers seem to want to abandon freedom of movement and retain it simultaneously.
    I'm not aware of any particular Leave who wants both.

    Leavers are not fungible.
    "Schroedinger's Leavers" implies we have to kill them in order to find out their preference. seems a little harsh
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    matt said:

    Blimey, AEP not messing around today:

    "If [new trade rules with China are] correct, and if allowed to run its course, Europe would be finished as an industrial and military region. It would be civilisational suicide."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/30/britain-sacrifices-steel-industry-to-curry-favour-with-china/

    Why not look on his record. Is there any subject on which his Lamentations have turned out correctly? I'm still waiting for the immediate collapse of the Euro. He's a blowhard.
    even a stopped clock is right twice a day
  • Charles said:

    He's great box office

    Steve Hawkes
    Jacob Rees Mogg wonders re Nicky Morgan's mad inter-railing claim.."how Phileas Fogg managed to get around the world in 80 days without EU"

    So he wants to know how a fictional character went around the world in less than 80 days?
    Think he is just highlighting her ludicrous claim, Remainers seem more demented every day.
    Schrodinger's Leavers seem to want to abandon freedom of movement and retain it simultaneously.
    I'm not aware of any particular Leave who wants both.

    Leavers are not fungible.
    "Schroedinger's Leavers" implies we have to kill them in order to find out their preference. seems a little harsh
    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/715465350935089152
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    I thought my classmates did them in the 80s when trying to be extra swottish/applying to Oxbridge.

    Charles said:



    A/S levels always existed, but were ramped up because the NUT complained that it was outrageous to have a single pass/fail test for children.

    Basically the NUT don't want any way to objectively monitor the performance of their members. That's probably in the interests of their members (don't forget they also reject rewarding the best teachers) but not in the best interests of the children.

    A/S levels were introduced in the early 90s, as far as I remember.
    S levels, I think? maybe different exam boards were different
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:



    A/S levels always existed, but were ramped up because the NUT complained that it was outrageous to have a single pass/fail test for children.

    Basically the NUT don't want any way to objectively monitor the performance of their members. That's probably in the interests of their members (don't forget they also reject rewarding the best teachers) but not in the best interests of the children.

    A/S levels were introduced in the early 90s, as far as I remember.
    "always existed" was a turn of phrase. Not a literal statement.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Migration Watch
    Here's the full letter revealed in the @Telegraph exclusive tonight https://t.co/NDCfwA8BpX https://t.co/bi8k8ihmbr
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited March 2016

    I thought my classmates did them in the 80s when trying to be extra swottish/applying to Oxbridge.

    Charles said:



    A/S levels always existed, but were ramped up because the NUT complained that it was outrageous to have a single pass/fail test for children.

    Basically the NUT don't want any way to objectively monitor the performance of their members. That's probably in the interests of their members (don't forget they also reject rewarding the best teachers) but not in the best interests of the children.

    A/S levels were introduced in the early 90s, as far as I remember.
    I suspect you are thinking of 'S' levels which were dropped in 2001
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663

    Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL

    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?

    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
    Was pure clickbait for you.
    It worked :-)
    I've got a clickbaity thread coming up soon, contains the question

    'Is Nicola Sturgeon stupid?'*

    As I combine two PB favourites, What does Brexit really mean for Scottish Independence.

    *Answer is no
    Post election various pollsters (Comres I suspect) will be able to dig out the demographic data and match up to the real result.

    I'm guessing it will be Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales(?) that will keep England(*) in.

    (*)Excluding London most likely.
    (?) Genuinely unsure on Wales.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,312
    The problem with the AS level is that it means exams at the end of the lower sixth. This means that the summer term of the lower sixth is basically lost to exams when under the old structure this time would be used to learn. It also creates a culture of re-sits. My view on re-sits is that you should have to take the mark you get on the second paper.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Charles said:



    "always existed" was a turn of phrase. Not a literal statement.

    ah, sorry for the unnecessary correction then. It does seem though that the start of the permanent revolution in education dates from around the introduction of the GCSE and the AS level — blame Kenneth Baker I suppose.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL

    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?

    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
    Was pure clickbait for you.
    It worked :-)
    I've got a clickbaity thread coming up soon, contains the question

    'Is Nicola Sturgeon stupid?'*

    As I combine two PB favourites, What does Brexit really mean for Scottish Independence.

    *Answer is no
    Post election various pollsters (Comres I suspect) will be able to dig out the demographic data and match up to the real result.

    I'm guessing it will be Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales(?) that will keep England(*) in.

    (*)Excluding London most likely.
    (?) Genuinely unsure on Wales.
    Better Together as Scotland keeps England in the EU is my dream headline.
  • rcs1000 said:

    I'm also on team Jeremy Hunt because Tissue Price and I are on him as next PM at 66/1he's been firm with the Doctors.

    Always good when a Tory Minister puts the public sector in their place.

    Their place being the plane to Australia?
    But they tell us they love the NHS, nor is this about money.

    They really love the NHS if they are heading for Australia.
    Retention rates in Medicine are at an all time low, at least until this years figures are published, but despite my jest it is not Australia that is the destination. There are the same numbers heading there as in 2013 (about 8%) the big increase is in people quitting medicine entirely. This is probably worse as Doctors in Australia may return if conditions improve, but those who quit for other careers will most likely never return.
    Retention rates were always likely to go down with the shift to more female trained doctors. Soon after completing university a significant number start having children with an inevitable decline in full time doctors. We have lots of part time female GPs for example. Others just step away for 10+ years.
    While that is certainly true, retention rates in some specialties ( like A&E) are appalling.
    A&E have more unsocial hours than most medical disciplines - but presumably there is clear research into the facts on the reasons.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    So we don't do the high performance stuff (or we would have used it, presumably) and whatever the cost of production of Chinese steel makers, I'm guessing it is lower than ours. so we can't compete on "mass market" steel.

    Which leaves....?

    I hadn't expected you (and @Alanbrooke) and Len to be on the same side of the argument but you all seem to be saying we should keep PT because it is a high cost producer of low grade steel.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
    I was sure there'd be a metal basher who knew the answer somewhere on the site...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL

    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?

    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
    More government spending is good news in your eyes? That's one way to look at it Gordon ...
    If it means the facts we run the economy are more accurate yes.

    Would you refuse to spend money in your business to upgrade your IT ?
    If I wasn't convinced that the upgrade would be worth it then yes.

    "IT upgrades" are the great failed money drain of successive governments. We need more skepticism over them not less.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,390
    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    You've not reached your third birthday then ?? :smile:

    My back aches like it's in its ninetieth year (*), my body feels like it's in its fiftieth, and my brain in its third. Too much Mr Tumble rots the brain.

    A consequence of looking after an active toddler ... :)

    (*) So still a youngster compared to your venerable self.
    I was reading before I was walking. That's unusual, apparently.
    Me too.
    You've got to do something while sitting on yer arse in a nappyfull of u-know-what.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
    I was sure there'd be a metal basher who knew the answer somewhere on the site...
    I reckon in my career I've run businesses which have bought over a million tonnes of the stuff.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714

    Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL

    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?

    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
    More government spending is good news in your eyes? That's one way to look at it Gordon ...
    If it means the facts we run the economy are more accurate yes.

    Would you refuse to spend money in your business to upgrade your IT ?
    If I wasn't convinced that the upgrade would be worth it then yes.

    "IT upgrades" are the great failed money drain of successive governments. We need more skepticism over them not less.
    The counter to that being that you WOULD spend it if it gave you benefits. Which is where the inital point started.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    edited March 2016

    Charles said:

    He's great box office

    Steve Hawkes
    Jacob Rees Mogg wonders re Nicky Morgan's mad inter-railing claim.."how Phileas Fogg managed to get around the world in 80 days without EU"

    So he wants to know how a fictional character went around the world in less than 80 days?
    Think he is just highlighting her ludicrous claim, Remainers seem more demented every day.
    Schrodinger's Leavers seem to want to abandon freedom of movement and retain it simultaneously.
    I'm not aware of any particular Leave who wants both.

    Leavers are not fungible.
    "Schroedinger's Leavers" implies we have to kill them in order to find out their preference. seems a little harsh
    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/715465350935089152
    ha! but opening the tomb would kill him
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Charles said:

    I thought my classmates did them in the 80s when trying to be extra swottish/applying to Oxbridge.

    Charles said:



    A/S levels always existed, but were ramped up because the NUT complained that it was outrageous to have a single pass/fail test for children.

    Basically the NUT don't want any way to objectively monitor the performance of their members. That's probably in the interests of their members (don't forget they also reject rewarding the best teachers) but not in the best interests of the children.

    A/S levels were introduced in the early 90s, as far as I remember.
    I suspect you are thinking of 'S' levels which were dropped in 2001
    There were also 'Step' papers, but I don't think those are still going now, except perhaps in Maths
  • Is it not the case that low grade steel such as concrete rebar is an out and out commodity? You just want to get the best priced stuff from wherever - and if Chinese taxpayers are subsidising your purchases well more fool them.

    High grade speciality steels - are these not the products most at risk of materials technology advances? Vehicles, aircraft, etc are all starting to see significantly higher use of carbonfibres or aramids. I don't think steel is nearly the strategic thing it once was.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,253
    Top Trolling;

    @ScotlandinUnion: On this day in 1930, British engineer John Logie Baird installed a TV set at 10 Downing Street
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,390
    Othering alert..

    'Scots are to the left of the rest of Britain on almost every issue'

    http://tinyurl.com/gpxecus
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    SkyNews
    I.S. fanatic Mohammed Moshin Ameen has pleaded guilty to inviting support for the terror group & encouraging terrorism in 40,000 tweets
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    I thought my classmates did them in the 80s when trying to be extra swottish/applying to Oxbridge.

    Charles said:



    A/S levels always existed, but were ramped up because the NUT complained that it was outrageous to have a single pass/fail test for children.

    Basically the NUT don't want any way to objectively monitor the performance of their members. That's probably in the interests of their members (don't forget they also reject rewarding the best teachers) but not in the best interests of the children.

    A/S levels were introduced in the early 90s, as far as I remember.
    There were AS levels (end of 1st year in the VI form) that may have been introduced in the 1990s.

    There were 'S' levels that I took (and failed) that were certainly available in the late 1970s
  • kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    re 1980s exams - The S level was an extension paper for A level students and very different to the post 2000 A/S level exams. Some exam boards used to offer an O/A level which was similar to the AS being a 1 year course but obviously exam rather than coursework based - I have one in geology from 1984! I can still talk schists and can recognise haematite at a 100 paces
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL

    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?

    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
    More government spending is good news in your eyes? That's one way to look at it Gordon ...
    If it means the facts we run the economy are more accurate yes.

    Would you refuse to spend money in your business to upgrade your IT ?
    If I wasn't convinced that the upgrade would be worth it then yes.

    "IT upgrades" are the great failed money drain of successive governments. We need more skepticism over them not less.
    The counter to that being that you WOULD spend it if it gave you benefits. Which is where the inital point started.
    Oh yes I sure would. My objection was not to benefits but to the turn of phrase "Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct ..." - simply putting money in does not by itself get the stats correct. It reminded me of Brown whose answer to any problem was "put more money in".

    You could very easily spend more money to get the statistics correct and end up with the statistics no better but in more debt. Given successive governments track record that's what I'd expect to happen too.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    So we don't do the high performance stuff (or we would have used it, presumably) and whatever the cost of production of Chinese steel makers, I'm guessing it is lower than ours. so we can't compete on "mass market" steel.

    Which leaves....?

    I hadn't expected you (and @Alanbrooke) and Len to be on the same side of the argument but you all seem to be saying we should keep PT because it is a high cost producer of low grade steel.
    My understanding is we do different high performance steel.

    If Port Talbot is structurally uncompetitive in low grade steel it should be phased out. If it suffering from dumping by China then there should be scope for intervention
  • So would mine.
    TSE for PM!
    About a decade ago, someone suggested I put myself forward as a Tory candidates list to be an MP, I said no.

    I never regretted that decision until recently.
    Not wishing to understate your prospects, but unless by now you have made conspicuous progress in local government or at Tory HQ or as a ministerial advisor, then your chances of your making it onto the candidates list look pretty remote, far less any ambitions you may harbour of then actually getting elected as an MP. This is especially so at a time when there is likely to be a significant reduction in the number of MPs in the HoC and therefore quite a number of ex-MPs looking for a return.
    Your best chance is probably to keep plugging away on the media side of things and hoping thereby to get noticed and fast-tracked. Perhaps taking on something like Kieran Pedley has done on PB.comTV would be a good idea, so that you become known as a personality in your own right rather than simply a very effective thread writer and blogger in chief alongside OGH.
    Thanks to my stint as editor of PB, I've managed to meet/get to know very well a few people in the Tory Party/CCHQ in the last few years.

    They were the ones who recently suggested I become an MP.

    But I realised that ship has sailed.

    But I revel in the glory they said, I was the only one in British politics who spotted the potential for Corbyn making a complete idiot of himself at the Battle of Britain ceremony.
    TSE I disagree. The problem with our political class is their lack of working in the private sector. Also the lack of management experience in particular. Which is why and Andrea Leadsom are streets ahead of others in their ability to manage the civil service.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    edited March 2016

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
    Bright, Mild, Stainless {304, 310, 316, 321}, schedule 40

    Bar, plate, flat, round, angle, pipe.

    In all dimensions.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
    I was sure there'd be a metal basher who knew the answer somewhere on the site...
    I reckon in my career I've run businesses which have bought over a million tonnes of the stuff.
    That's more steel than I've bought.

    But I reckon I've sold more drugs than you have ;)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    So would mine.
    TSE for PM!
    About a decade ago, someone suggested I put myself forward as a Tory candidates list to be an MP, I said no.

    I never regretted that decision until recently.
    Not wishing to understate your prospects, but unless by now you have made conspicuous progress in local government or at Tory HQ or as a ministerial advisor, then your chances of your making it onto the candidates list look pretty remote, far less any ambitions you may harbour of then actually getting elected as an MP. This is especially so at a time when there is likely to be a significant reduction in the number of MPs in the HoC and therefore quite a number of ex-MPs looking for a return.
    Your best chance is probably to keep plugging away on the media side of things and hoping thereby to get noticed and fast-tracked. Perhaps taking on something like Kieran Pedley has done on PB.comTV would be a good idea, so that you become known as a personality in your own right rather than simply a very effective thread writer and blogger in chief alongside OGH.
    Thanks to my stint as editor of PB, I've managed to meet/get to know very well a few people in the Tory Party/CCHQ in the last few years.

    They were the ones who recently suggested I become an MP.

    But I realised that ship has sailed.

    But I revel in the glory they said, I was the only one in British politics who spotted the potential for Corbyn making a complete idiot of himself at the Battle of Britain ceremony.
    TSE I disagree. The problem with our political class is their lack of working in the private sector. Also the lack of management experience in particular. Which is why and Andrea Leadsom are streets ahead of others in their ability to manage the civil service.
    Who and Leadsom?
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    It was interesting to hear Remainian Len try and steer his interviewer away from any mention of the EU, but the gist of the conversation suggested that the French and Germans dodge the rules, whilst we stick to them like limpets. And there's one of the problems.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    Pulpstar said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
    Bright, Mild, Stainless, 304, 310, 316, 321, schedule 40

    Bar, plate, flat, round, angle, pipe.

    In all dimensions.
    So can you tell us what's happening at PT?

    @Charles - agree.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
    I was sure there'd be a metal basher who knew the answer somewhere on the site...
    Whatever the question there is always at least one person on here who genuinely knows about the subject. It is what keeps PB an interesting place to hang out. It also means we can have those discussions on history, trains education, finance, engineering etc. that drive one or two of our correspondents up the wall.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    watford30 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    It was interesting to hear Remainian Len try and steer his interviewer away from any mention of the EU, but the gist of the conversation suggested that the French and Germans dodge the rules, whilst we stick to them like limpets. And there's one of the problems.
    If the rules are not to be enforced they should not be there in the first place. Agreeing to rules but then breaking them is not the solution even if others do break them.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited March 2016

    Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL
    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?
    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
    Was pure clickbait for you.
    It worked :-)
    I've got a clickbaity thread coming up soon, contains the question
    'Is Nicola Sturgeon stupid?'*
    As I combine two PB favourites, What does Brexit really mean for Scottish Independence.
    *Answer is no
    Nicola Sturgeon is clearly amongst the ablest folk in SNP. But the honeymoon for the SNP will end one day, probably when the new powers lead to the SNP Govt being held to account. She may be occupying its Leader position when it does.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714
    Patrick said:

    Is it not the case that low grade steel such as concrete rebar is an out and out commodity? You just want to get the best priced stuff from wherever - and if Chinese taxpayers are subsidising your purchases well more fool them.

    High grade speciality steels - are these not the products most at risk of materials technology advances? Vehicles, aircraft, etc are all starting to see significantly higher use of carbonfibres or aramids. I don't think steel is nearly the strategic thing it once was.

    On the high grade steels you get the trade off between application and price. Some of the alternative materials are very expensive. Then the other big advantage steel has is recyclability, plastics suffer to some extent on being less environmentally friendly.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    kingbongo said:

    re 1980s exams - The S level was an extension paper for A level students and very different to the post 2000 A/S level exams. Some exam boards used to offer an O/A level which was similar to the AS being a 1 year course but obviously exam rather than coursework based - I have one in geology from 1984! I can still talk schists and can recognise haematite at a 100 paces

    bloody hell, yes I have an O/A in maths I'd entirely forgotten about!
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Where's Sigmund Dair when you need him. Our resident polymath powered by Wikipedia is much missed.
    Pulpstar said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
    Bright, Mild, Stainless {304, 310, 316, 321}, schedule 40

    Bar, plate, flat, round, angle, pipe.

    In all dimensions.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
    I was sure there'd be a metal basher who knew the answer somewhere on the site...
    I reckon in my career I've run businesses which have bought over a million tonnes of the stuff.
    That's more steel than I've bought.

    But I reckon I've sold more drugs than you have ;)
    ROFL - Charles hadn't thought of you as dealer :-)
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    watford30 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    It was interesting to hear Remainian Len try and steer his interviewer away from any mention of the EU, but the gist of the conversation suggested that the French and Germans dodge the rules, whilst we stick to them like limpets. And there's one of the problems.
    If the rules are not to be enforced they should not be there in the first place. Agreeing to rules but then breaking them is not the solution even if others do break them.
    Indeed. Either everyone follows them, or no one does, and they're scrapped.

    We're the stupid ones, thanks to a Civil Service that went Euro native decades ago.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    edited March 2016
    Charles said:



    I was surprised by an article on the BBC News site yesterday claiming that children should know 200 words by their third birthday. it seems rather low: does anyone have more information, for instance what is meant by 'know' ?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35917037

    My 4 year old has started to use the word "prefer" correctly*. A lot. I have no idea whether this is normal or not...

    * As in "I'd prefer not to do what you told me, Daddy, I'd rather do this instead"
    Precocious

    "Grow your toddler’s vocabulary
    Language skills grow rapidly in the third year. A typical 2-year-old knows 20-200 words. A typical 3-year-old knows about 1,000 words.

    Also very exciting is that between ages 2 and 3, most children have developed the language and grammar skills to have a real conversation with you. Your child will be able to put words together into 2- and 3-word sentences: More apple, You play, Car mine. By the time your child is 3, she will be able to put together three to four words to convey a thought such as, I got new shoes. She is probably also beginning to ask her first questions, usually ones beginning with What or Where such as, What dat?
    "

    In the third year female brains start being active in the left hemisphere - language. Male brains develop later, so young boys are usually well behind young girls in language.

    This causes problems when learning to read at school - as boys will still use the whole-word approach (right hemisphere) and the girls will start to use word building/ phonics. Guess which system schools push (bearing in mind that 125% of primary teachers are female.)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714

    Huzzah for the awesomeness of Osborne.

    Q4 GDP revised upwards from 0.5% to 0.6%

    ROFL

    you mean our national statistics which always underrecord activity show an increase and that's good news ?

    Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct instead of driving the economy with half the windscreen blocked.
    More government spending is good news in your eyes? That's one way to look at it Gordon ...
    If it means the facts we run the economy are more accurate yes.

    Would you refuse to spend money in your business to upgrade your IT ?
    If I wasn't convinced that the upgrade would be worth it then yes.

    "IT upgrades" are the great failed money drain of successive governments. We need more skepticism over them not less.
    The counter to that being that you WOULD spend it if it gave you benefits. Which is where the inital point started.
    Oh yes I sure would. My objection was not to benefits but to the turn of phrase "Good news would be he's put some money into getting the statistics correct ..." - simply putting money in does not by itself get the stats correct. It reminded me of Brown whose answer to any problem was "put more money in".

    You could very easily spend more money to get the statistics correct and end up with the statistics no better but in more debt. Given successive governments track record that's what I'd expect to happen too.
    So in other words you wouldn't trust Osborne to install Windows - me neither :-)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
    I was sure there'd be a metal basher who knew the answer somewhere on the site...
    Whatever the question there is always at least one person on here who genuinely knows about the subject. It is what keeps PB an interesting place to hang out. It also means we can have those discussions on history, trains education, finance, engineering etc. that drive one or two of our correspondents up the wall.
    I've never talked about "trains education" before. What do you have to teach them?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
    I was sure there'd be a metal basher who knew the answer somewhere on the site...
    Whatever the question there is always at least one person on here who genuinely knows about the subject. It is what keeps PB an interesting place to hang out. It also means we can have those discussions on history, trains education, finance, engineering etc. that drive one or two of our correspondents up the wall.
    I've never talked about "trains education" before. What do you have to teach them?
    :D
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596



    So in other words you wouldn't trust Osborne to install Windows - me neither :-)

    soft furnishings maybe. Windows might result in rain coming in
  • YouGov have rebutted Matt Singh's analysis

    Why YouGov has the upper hand in EU referendum polling. The anonymity of online polls makes it easier for people to give their real opinions – while convenience makes them better at reaching social liberals

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/analysis-why-yougov-has-upper-hand-eu-referendum-p/
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596



    So in other words you wouldn't trust Osborne to install Windows - me neither :-)

    soft furnishings maybe. Windows might result in rain coming in
    (and he hasn't fixed the roof either)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
    Bright, Mild, Stainless, 304, 310, 316, 321, schedule 40

    Bar, plate, flat, round, angle, pipe.

    In all dimensions.
    So can you tell us what's happening at PT?

    @Charles - agree.
    Not sure what they make, but the claim by Stephen Kinnock that "They make the best steel that money can buy." is most likely factually incorrect.

    50 shades of steel:

    http://www.bssa.org.uk/50-grades-of-stainless-steel.php
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2016
    Some of the alternative materials are very expensive.

    Hmm...sounds like steel is going to become uncompetitive altogether to me. Mining the ore, moving it, melting it - it's all inherently and unavoidably energy intensive. Plastics and advanced materials are expensive(ish) because they don't have economies of scale. Look at the price of carbon fibre or Kevlar - they've been on a sort of Moore's Law reduction over recent years as their usage explodes. C60 Buckminsterfullerene looks set to become a viable super-material. And it's easy to make. Industrial demand for bronze collapsed when a better material (iron / steel) came along. Steel has had its day. Almost all engineering applications will be better served with cheaper, lighter, stronger materials.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    And BS EU Leave story of the day.....

    Brexit could have 'big effect' on football

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/35919247

    You have to get two thirds of the way through the article until a law professor basically says yeah, but the UK would just change the law to adjust.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,999

    SkyNews
    I.S. fanatic Mohammed Moshin Ameen has pleaded guilty to inviting support for the terror group & encouraging terrorism in 40,000 tweets

    Too many tweets do indeed make a tw@t. ;)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,253

    Othering alert..

    'Scots are to the left of the rest of Britain on almost every issue'

    http://tinyurl.com/gpxecus

    Pity Nicola bottled 50p tax then.....tho encouragingly for her 'Named Person' plan Scots are slightly more right wing on 'role of government' (and 'internet regulation')......
  • So would mine.
    TSE for PM!
    About a decade ago, someone suggested I put myself forward as a Tory candidates list to be an MP, I said no.

    I never regretted that decision until recently.
    Not wishing to understate your prospects, but unless by now you have made conspicuous progress in local government or at Tory HQ or as a ministerial advisor, then your chances of your making it onto the candidates list look pretty remote, far less any ambitions you may harbour of then actually getting elected as an MP. This is especially so at a time when there is likely to be a significant reduction in the number of MPs in the HoC and therefore quite a number of ex-MPs looking for a return.
    Your best chance is probably to keep plugging away on the media side of things and hoping thereby to get noticed and fast-tracked. Perhaps taking on something like Kieran Pedley has done on PB.comTV would be a good idea, so that you become known as a personality in your own right rather than simply a very effective thread writer and blogger in chief alongside OGH.
    Thanks to my stint as editor of PB, I've managed to meet/get to know very well a few people in the Tory Party/CCHQ in the last few years.

    They were the ones who recently suggested I become an MP.

    But I realised that ship has sailed.

    But I revel in the glory they said, I was the only one in British politics who spotted the potential for Corbyn making a complete idiot of himself at the Battle of Britain ceremony.
    TSE I disagree. The problem with our political class is their lack of working in the private sector. Also the lack of management experience in particular. Which is why and Andrea Leadsom are streets ahead of others in their ability to manage the civil service.
    Who and Leadsom?
    Ha - Theresa May... I cut rather than copied her right spelling...... An able SoS but not my choice of PM.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112

    And BS EU Leave story of the day.....

    Brexit could have 'big effect' on football

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/35919247

    You have to get two thirds of the way through the article until a law professor basically says yeah, but the UK would just change the law to adjust.

    I agree the story, its use and its premise are bolleaux but...you do hear of non-EU players on occasion having visa difficulties so might not be completely straightforward and instantly solvable...
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I've just entered a parallel universe.

    Listened to Len McCluskey on R4 on the way in to work and he actually not only made sense but had more of a grasp on life than most of the government ministers I've heard. Somebody should just tell Anna Soubry to stay away from a microphone.

    I need a drink.

    Just had one, more like.

    I was scouring PP for odds of Soubry for next Cons leader. Len, meanwhile, on the one hand bemoaned "low quality cheap steel imports" displacing our own, presumably equally low quality steel, while on the other pointed out that we were a high quality producer.

    There is a reasonable case that the Chinese are currently engaged in price dumping.

    Tariffs are permitted in this circumstance under WTO rules. They shouldn't be maintained permanently (because that creates structural inefficiencies) but neither should another country be permitted to export the consequences of their policy errors
    According to Len, we used Swedish steel to build our RN ships. Not sure they were dumping. I get the issues of responding to dumping but it seems (and IANAE) that we don't stack up at all well to other global providers, not just the Chinese.
    I am by no means an expert in steel production, but my understanding is that not all steels are comparable: for something like high performance ships you will need a difference mix of alloys or a different manufacturing process, etc. Whether the UK produces that, or not, I don't know. So I'm not sure you can argue "we used Swedish steel in this specific case" as a compelling argument. (Even ignoring pan-European procurement rules).
    There are lots of different grades of steels. Most European mills will produce high grades which are tailored for specific applications such as automotive. The more bog standardy stuff used in mainstream construction and non performance critical engineering is what's coming in from China.
    Bright, Mild, Stainless, 304, 310, 316, 321, schedule 40

    Bar, plate, flat, round, angle, pipe.

    In all dimensions.
    So can you tell us what's happening at PT?

    @Charles - agree.
    Not sure what they make, but the claim by Stephen Kinnock that "They make the best steel that money can buy." is most likely factually incorrect.

    50 shades of steel:

    http://www.bssa.org.uk/50-grades-of-stainless-steel.php
    The problem at PT isn't necessarily the quality of the steel made in the furnaces (on which Tata have spent £300M), but the ageing rolling mills.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663

    YouGov have rebutted Matt Singh's analysis

    Why YouGov has the upper hand in EU referendum polling. The anonymity of online polls makes it easier for people to give their real opinions – while convenience makes them better at reaching social liberals

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/analysis-why-yougov-has-upper-hand-eu-referendum-p/

    Does one trust Matt Singh or Peter Kellner. Boy that's a TOUGH one.

    No, really, don't laugh too hard !

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,714
    edited March 2016
    Patrick said:

    Some of the alternative materials are very expensive.

    Hmm...sounds like steel is going to become uncompetitive altogether to me. Mining the ore, moving it, melting it - it's all inherently and unavoidably energy intensive. Plastics and advanced materials are expensive(ish) because they don't have economies of scale. Look at the price of carbon fibre or Kevlar - they've been on a sort of Moore's Law reduction over recent years as their usage explodes. C60 Buckminsterfullerene looks set to become a viable super-material. And it's easy to make. Industrial demand for bronze collapsed when a better material (iron / steel) came along. Steel has had its day. Almost all engineering applications will be better served with cheaper, lighter, stronger materials.

    Well be using steel in high quantities at the end of this century imo, it's just too versatile. In the automotive sector most of the steel \ plastic replacement has already taken place and steel is still about 500-700kilos per car. In bodyshells steels ability to crumple is seen as a favourable characteristic for vehicle safey. In a crash the steel crumples and absorbs the shock of an impact, comparble plastics tend to snap and will come into the body compartment and slice you in half.

    Your choice :-)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,999
    Patrick said:

    Some of the alternative materials are very expensive.

    Hmm...sounds like steel is going to become uncompetitive altogether to me. Mining the ore, moving it, melting it - it's all inherently and unavoidably energy intensive. Plastics and advanced materials are expensive(ish) because they don't have economies of scale. Look at the price of carbon fibre or Kevlar - they've been on a sort of Moore's Law reduction over recent years as their usage explodes. C60 Buckminsterfullerene looks set to become a viable super-material. And it's easy to make. Industrial demand for bronze collapsed when a better material (iron / steel) came along. Steel has had its day. Almost all engineering applications will be better served with cheaper, lighter, stronger materials.

    The ex of a friend is a researcher into functional ceramics, and believes there are some major advances to come in that area (ceramics is much more than pottery).

    In another area, there was some advanced research into replacements for steel reinforcing bar in concrete, but I have no idea how far that got (it's different from fibres within the concrete mix to prevent cracking).

    Materials research is a potentially disruptive area in which we should be investing. Diamond is a good start,
  • Pulpstar said:

    YouGov have rebutted Matt Singh's analysis

    Why YouGov has the upper hand in EU referendum polling. The anonymity of online polls makes it easier for people to give their real opinions – while convenience makes them better at reaching social liberals

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/analysis-why-yougov-has-upper-hand-eu-referendum-p/

    Does one trust Matt Singh or Peter Kellner. Boy that's a TOUGH one.

    No, really, don't laugh too hard !

    Peter Kellner has left YouGov, so it's Stephan Shakespeare
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,765
    edited March 2016

    I'm confused by this article in The Telegraph.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/30/britain-sacrifices-steel-industry-to-curry-favour-with-china/

    It's anti-Osborne put sort of pro-EU. I don't know what to think!
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Patrick said:

    Some of the alternative materials are very expensive.

    Hmm...sounds like steel is going to become uncompetitive altogether to me. Mining the ore, moving it, melting it - it's all inherently and unavoidably energy intensive. Plastics and advanced materials are expensive(ish) because they don't have economies of scale. Look at the price of carbon fibre or Kevlar - they've been on a sort of Moore's Law reduction over recent years as their usage explodes. C60 Buckminsterfullerene looks set to become a viable super-material. And it's easy to make. Industrial demand for bronze collapsed when a better material (iron / steel) came along. Steel has had its day. Almost all engineering applications will be better served with cheaper, lighter, stronger materials.

    Well be using steel in high quantities at the end of this century imo, it's just too versatile. In the automotive sector most of the steel \ plastic replacement has already taken place and steel is still about 500-700kilos per car. In bodyshells steels ability to crumple is seen as a favourable characteristic for vehicle safey. In a crash the steel crumples and absorbs the shock of an impact, comparble plastics tend to snap and will come into the body compartment and slice you in half.

    Your choice :-)
    Plastics and Carbon Fibre are far more flammable too.
  • Pulpstar said:

    YouGov have rebutted Matt Singh's analysis

    Why YouGov has the upper hand in EU referendum polling. The anonymity of online polls makes it easier for people to give their real opinions – while convenience makes them better at reaching social liberals

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/analysis-why-yougov-has-upper-hand-eu-referendum-p/

    Does one trust Matt Singh or Peter Kellner. Boy that's a TOUGH one.

    No, really, don't laugh too hard !

    But really, we've got JackW and Matt Singh going for a Remain victory.

    I know where my money is going
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    Patrick said:

    Steel has had its day.

    A bold claim. Is there any evidence at all for this ?

    I'll assure you it's being used just as much as ever in the glass industry.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663

    Pulpstar said:

    YouGov have rebutted Matt Singh's analysis

    Why YouGov has the upper hand in EU referendum polling. The anonymity of online polls makes it easier for people to give their real opinions – while convenience makes them better at reaching social liberals

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/analysis-why-yougov-has-upper-hand-eu-referendum-p/

    Does one trust Matt Singh or Peter Kellner. Boy that's a TOUGH one.

    No, really, don't laugh too hard !

    But really, we've got JackW and Matt Singh going for a Remain victory.

    I know where my money is going
    I'll see what Matt and Jack are saying nearer to the time. My spidey senses definitely have it for remain now though, for sure.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554

    Pulpstar said:

    YouGov have rebutted Matt Singh's analysis

    Why YouGov has the upper hand in EU referendum polling. The anonymity of online polls makes it easier for people to give their real opinions – while convenience makes them better at reaching social liberals

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/analysis-why-yougov-has-upper-hand-eu-referendum-p/

    Does one trust Matt Singh or Peter Kellner. Boy that's a TOUGH one.

    No, really, don't laugh too hard !

    Peter Kellner has left YouGov, so it's Stephan Shakespeare
    YouGov need to update their website...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,567

    kingbongo said:

    re 1980s exams - The S level was an extension paper for A level students and very different to the post 2000 A/S level exams. Some exam boards used to offer an O/A level which was similar to the AS being a 1 year course but obviously exam rather than coursework based - I have one in geology from 1984! I can still talk schists and can recognise haematite at a 100 paces

    bloody hell, yes I have an O/A in maths I'd entirely forgotten about!
    Me too.
  • Pulpstar said:

    YouGov have rebutted Matt Singh's analysis

    Why YouGov has the upper hand in EU referendum polling. The anonymity of online polls makes it easier for people to give their real opinions – while convenience makes them better at reaching social liberals

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/analysis-why-yougov-has-upper-hand-eu-referendum-p/

    Does one trust Matt Singh or Peter Kellner. Boy that's a TOUGH one.

    No, really, don't laugh too hard !

    Peter Kellner has left YouGov, so it's Stephan Shakespeare
    YouGov need to update their website...
    I think today is his last day
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,896

    He's great box office

    Steve Hawkes
    Jacob Rees Mogg wonders re Nicky Morgan's mad inter-railing claim.."how Phileas Fogg managed to get around the world in 80 days without EU"

    So he wants to know how a fictional character went around the world in less than 80 days?
    Think he is just highlighting her ludicrous claim, Remainers seem more demented every day.
    "Free the Wetherfield one"
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    YouGov have rebutted Matt Singh's analysis

    Why YouGov has the upper hand in EU referendum polling. The anonymity of online polls makes it easier for people to give their real opinions – while convenience makes them better at reaching social liberals

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/analysis-why-yougov-has-upper-hand-eu-referendum-p/

    Does one trust Matt Singh or Peter Kellner. Boy that's a TOUGH one.

    No, really, don't laugh too hard !

    But really, we've got JackW and Matt Singh going for a Remain victory.

    I know where my money is going
    I'll see what Matt and Jack are saying nearer to the time. My spidey senses definitely have it for remain now though, for sure.
    I think if Arron Banks mob gets the official Leave designation, that's when I'll be going balls deep backing Remain
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited March 2016
    I see the Telegraph has updated the look of their website...and it is UGGGGLLLLYYYY...what is it with all the newspaper websites looking like total messes.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,896
    TOPPING said:

    And BS EU Leave story of the day.....

    Brexit could have 'big effect' on football

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/35919247

    You have to get two thirds of the way through the article until a law professor basically says yeah, but the UK would just change the law to adjust.

    I agree the story, its use and its premise are bolleaux but...you do hear of non-EU players on occasion having visa difficulties so might not be completely straightforward and instantly solvable...
    Certainly a difference in the employablity of EU vs non EU players in cricket.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Just don't even look at the Times. 300 comments and counting so far on how much we hate it and it's crap navigation.

    I see the Telegraph has updated the look of their website...and it is UGGGGLLLLYYYY...what is it with all the newspaper websites looking like total messes.

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