I see on the previous thread that the usual suspects are explaining how the economy shrinking by c.3% will be fine. I hope you starve.
If you were told that there was a risk that if things went really badly for you, your income in 10 years' time would be 97.5% of what it would otherwise have been, I think you'd cope.
Interestingly, the Remain side are aware of this, too.
I know of one study done a short while back and funded by a pro-EU group where the said group continually asked the consultants doing the report 'why can't you make the effects [of EU exit] bigger?' when given the sort of 1-2% numbers mentioned earlier.
Evans seems an incredibly poor favourite to me. She doesn't seem to have much support within the party.
I can't see Farage being ousted any time soon so therefore the likely scenarios are as follows:
Leave wins and he steps down in triumph Remain wins and he steps down a la Salmond Remain wins and he steps down prior to the next European elections (2017 or 18) Remain wins and he steps down after the next European elections (2019) Remain wins and he goes on past the 2020 GE
In the remain scenarios one of the MEPs such as Nuttall or Woolfe is the likely successor In the leave scenario it is less clear as the MEPs will all be out of a job likely in 2019. Could Reckless lead the party from the Welsh Assembly?
It will almost certainly be someone close to Farage wont it? Evans and Carswell only joined the party relatively recently and have made enemies with the top brass.. hardly the basis on which to launch to take over
@Pong or @Tissue_Price tipped Reckless at 25s last year, that looks good seeing as he appears to be in w the in crowd... Id say he is still a great bet at 20s
This is utter twaddle. The next European election is 2019. Are they really going to want 73 British MEPs hanging round for a decade making rude speeches and voting against further integration?
If he was following the standard meme, he'd have gone for 3 million years.
Where was O'Donnell when the memoranda of any exit terms were being drawn up all those years ago? Wasn't he meant to be overseeing this stuff? He's clearly gone Euro native - it's no wonder the civil service are all so desperate to stay. The whole lot have been infected.
You have to laugh at the GOP. They've been useless fighting off the Tea Party insurgency and now they face having to rig their own convention to potentially hand the nomination to a tea party loon (who is far more dangerous as an ideologue than pragmatist Trump).
Trump either goes to the convention with enough votes or with a few hundred short but a landslide ahead of Cruz. So rigging it for not-Trump (who???) would blow away the final pretence that this is a democracy. They'd be better acquiescing to demands for open carry a the convention. Then have him assassinated (it worked for the Dems in 68...)
The Tories won't go near any hint of nationalisation and Labour has its own problems.
China is dumping steel and the EU will prevent major tariffs, but Labour can't go big on that because they like the EU. Energy costs are too high but Labour can't go big on that because Wallace put them on to be Green. So nationalisation, it is.
The BBC are tip-toeing round the tariff issue because of their own sensitivity.
I've been looking into the steel production mess, but figures seem hard to come by. According to Wiki Port Talbot *can* produce 5 million tonnes of steel slab per year, but I was wondering what they have produced over the last few years, and what UK consumption of slab/strip/coil steel is.
If there were ever a real national emergency necessitating our withdrawal it could be done in an afternoon. Parliament is sovereign, despite what the Leave camp argues.
I've been looking into the steel production mess, but figures seem hard to come by. According to Wiki Port Talbot *can* produce 5 million tonnes of steel slab per year, but I was wondering what they have produced over the last few years, and what UK consumption of slab/strip/coil steel is.
The Tories won't go near any hint of nationalisation and Labour has its own problems.
China is dumping steel and the EU will prevent major tariffs, but Labour can't go big on that because they like the EU. Energy costs are too high but Labour can't go big on that because Wallace put them on to be Green. So nationalisation, it is.
The BBC are tip-toeing round the tariff issue because of their own sensitivity.
Wouldn't it be nice if people were honest?
The EU doesn't stop the UK government bailing them out for a while as the likes of Belgium and Italy have done. The EU will object but after its saved.
The family of Jean Charles de Menezes have lost their legal battle to hold the police officers who shot him to account.
They lodged a case with the European Court of Human Rights to challenge the decision by the Crown Prosecution Service not to prosecute any individuals over the 27-year-old Brazilian's death.
Collective sighs of relief around the armed squads today as that could have changed the whole armed response approach all together and probably not for the better.
Kevin Schofield Asked if she wants to respond to a Falklands vet's concerns about Labour's stance on the islands, Emily Thornberry says: "No, not really."
I've been looking into the steel production mess, but figures seem hard to come by. According to Wiki Port Talbot *can* produce 5 million tonnes of steel slab per year, but I was wondering what they have produced over the last few years, and what UK consumption of slab/strip/coil steel is.
The family of Jean Charles de Menezes have lost their legal battle to hold the police officers who shot him to account.
They lodged a case with the European Court of Human Rights to challenge the decision by the Crown Prosecution Service not to prosecute any individuals over the 27-year-old Brazilian's death.
Collective sighs of relief around the armed squads today as that could have changed the whole armed response approach all together and probably not for the better.
When are the IPCC going to report on the Turkish gangster that got shot 4 months ago? I am all for investigating properly, but it seems really wrong to have armed officer under investigation for murder for so long without any decision.
Kevin Schofield Asked if she wants to respond to a Falklands vet's concerns about Labour's stance on the islands, Emily Thornberry says: "No, not really."
White Van, England flagging waving, Mrs Bucket strikes again....
'it's no wonder the civil service are all so desperate to stay. The whole lot have been infected.'
The EU has become an embedded part of their career structure and world view over the last 40 years. They can't imagine being without it now, either in terms of the opportunities for personal advancement it gives them or the way it slots into their whole working process.
To be honest, a complete clear out would make sense if Brexit occurs. Something like what happened in some of the central and eastern European states in the early 1990s. A lot of the people in the Civil Service, especially the upper echelons, just won't be any use in the new situation.
I think Ukip would do better with a woman. Tories tend to be less confrontational facing women for a start. And judging by Liz Kendall, the Jezzarites go all misogynist, and lose the argument that way.
As long as she isn't a total idiot, it's a win-win for them.
The feeling of Deja-vu with the EU Referendum is strengthening. Just like 1975, the Establishment can't stop itself. In 1975, I was Pro-Europe and it was embarrassing enough then.
I've been looking into the steel production mess, but figures seem hard to come by. According to Wiki Port Talbot *can* produce 5 million tonnes of steel slab per year, but I was wondering what they have produced over the last few years, and what UK consumption of slab/strip/coil steel is.
Thanks for that. If I'm reading the charts correctly, in recent years our steel mills have been producing a little under half the UK's requirement for such raw products, and a quarter to a fifth of all steel used, including within imported goods.
The family of Jean Charles de Menezes have lost their legal battle to hold the police officers who shot him to account.
They lodged a case with the European Court of Human Rights to challenge the decision by the Crown Prosecution Service not to prosecute any individuals over the 27-year-old Brazilian's death.
Collective sighs of relief around the armed squads today as that could have changed the whole armed response approach all together and probably not for the better.
When are the IPCC going to report on the Turkish gangster that got shot 4 months ago? I am all for investigating properly, but it seems really wrong to have armed officer under investigation for murder for so long without any decision.
Unfortunately it's caught up behind Chilcott which is blocking the pipeline . Dynarod have been called but having no luck so far.
I think Steel is one manufacturing we should make an exception for. It's the political posturing I dislike.
Up here on Teesside we'd take a bit of posturing - it'd be a step on from the absolute silence we get currently. Redcar is shut. Gone forever. Anna Soubry (that left-wing harridan) has confessed that she lobbied Javid to at least keep the place mothballed so that a rescue could be done but he refused to do anything to intervene.
And what we then got was a "package" for the workforce where a substantial amount was their statutory rights, and my local MP for Columbo (Wharton) first of all said steel was "not my brief" then described the protesting steelworkers as "people gathered on a beach" and the closure as a "tragic distraction" from the Northern Powerhouse then didn't bother attending a single emergency debate on the closure.
Labour did a poor job last time the plant was threatened - presumably pushed by the same "its the free market" mandarins advising Javid to not have an industrial policy - which is why Vera Baird lost her seat. But at least then it was mothballed. This time its gone - and the utter contempt shown by the local Tory MP/Northern Poorhouse minister would be deplorable if it wasn't his usual form.
For what should be their prime time, UKIP and Farage seem oddly absent from the airwaves and EUref.
Probably better for Leave on balance.
Indeed. Farage has been conspicuously absent and now both Leave (and as isam keeps reminding us) Farage's ratings are at their best levels. Funny that ...
For what should be their prime time, UKIP and Farage seem oddly absent from the airwaves and EUref.
Probably better for Leave on balance.
Indeed. Farage has been conspicuously absent and now both Leave (and as isam keeps reminding us) Farage's ratings are at their best levels. Funny that ...
It seems that only now people found out that the GOP will be destroyed no matter what the outcome of their primary is.
When the NeverTrump guys showed up I knew that Republican politicians would prefer to blow themselves and their party, rather than hand the nomination to Trump. They will get their wish, as you can see everyone involved in the GOP primary has seen his numbers crash :
Since the primaries began, Hillary and the Democratic party favourables have gone up, with Republicans it's gone down severely, right now the average Republican has the favourables that Trump had back in November.
And contrast the 2 different long term directions of the 2 parties:
The sooner Farage is gone the better. UKIP, to have a future, need to be a party, not a Cult of Nigel.
Is the ambition for UKIP to have a future or to get out of Europe? The two are mutually exclusive.
If LEAVE wins there is no need for UKIP. No wonder Farage is trying hard to lose.
Isnt it incredible how memes set in on here.. repetition maybe?
LEAVE haven't been closer in the polls since the referendum was called, while Farage is way clear in the leader ratings, but people say he is a drag on the cause and is trying to lose! Why let facts get in the way?
Farage's antics within UKIP (e.g. attacks on Evans and Carswell) and feeding a divide with the two main LEAVE camps is clear evidence that he puts his ego before winning the referendum. Is that so hard for you to see?
The sooner Farage is gone the better. UKIP, to have a future, need to be a party, not a Cult of Nigel.
Is the ambition for UKIP to have a future or to get out of Europe? The two are mutually exclusive.
If LEAVE wins there is no need for UKIP. No wonder Farage is trying hard to lose.
Isnt it incredible how memes set in on here.. repetition maybe?
LEAVE haven't been closer in the polls since the referendum was called, while Farage is way clear in the leader ratings, but people say he is a drag on the cause and is trying to lose! Why let facts get in the way?
Farage's antics within UKIP (e.g. attacks on Evans and Carswell) and feeding a divide with the two main LEAVE camps is clear evidence that he puts his ego before winning the referendum. Is that so hard for you to see?
The net result of what you call "Farage's antics" is that LEAVE are in their strongest position ever and he is the most popular leader.. if LEAVE were in their worst ever position and he was the least popular leader, you and the haters might have a point, but it is straining credulity to say what you do in the face of the facts
Steel manufacturing is cyclical and necessary for the UK.
In five years time, we will regret we weren't pro-active. I'd keep a couple of coal mines on the go too for the same reason. But you can't reason with Tories, Europhiles and Greens all in one go.
Jezza, of course, will happily bankrupt the country for a cause, or even the sniff of a cause. Nationalisation isn't the long-term answer but with Jezza, you'd have ten times the workforce producing half as much steel.
It's the multiplier, you see, it will make us all rich.
The steel situation reminds of the way the aluminium smelter was closed in Anglesey - every possibilty for a new cost effective power source was blocked by the government until the plant was mothballed. We are in the same dance now.
For what should be their prime time, UKIP and Farage seem oddly absent from the airwaves and EUref.
Probably better for Leave on balance.
Indeed. Farage has been conspicuously absent and now both Leave (and as isam keeps reminding us) Farage's ratings are at their best levels. Funny that ...
Been out meeting the public aint he!
That's precisely what I (and others here) said is precisely how Leave could win. Let Farage and UKIP run a groundwork campaign with 'their' voters to GOTV for them and let less toxic individuals run the airwaves campaign to get Leave to 51% or more.
I seriously hope Vote Leave gets the nod as the official campaign. When does the decision get announced?
For what should be their prime time, UKIP and Farage seem oddly absent from the airwaves and EUref.
Probably better for Leave on balance.
Indeed. Farage has been conspicuously absent and now both Leave (and as isam keeps reminding us) Farage's ratings are at their best levels. Funny that ...
Been out meeting the public aint he!
That's precisely what I (and others here) said is precisely how Leave could win. Let Farage and UKIP run a groundwork campaign with 'their' voters to GOTV for them and let less toxic individuals run the airwaves campaign to get Leave to 51% or more.
I seriously hope Vote Leave gets the nod as the official campaign. When does the decision get announced?
I agree with you. I said it many times, if LEAVE had planned it to be this way they couldn't have done it better.. I don't know the answer to your question though, sorry
The sooner Farage is gone the better. UKIP, to have a future, need to be a party, not a Cult of Nigel.
Is the ambition for UKIP to have a future or to get out of Europe? The two are mutually exclusive.
If LEAVE wins there is no need for UKIP. No wonder Farage is trying hard to lose.
Isnt it incredible how memes set in on here.. repetition maybe?
LEAVE haven't been closer in the polls since the referendum was called, while Farage is way clear in the leader ratings, but people say he is a drag on the cause and is trying to lose! Why let facts get in the way?
Farage's antics within UKIP (e.g. attacks on Evans and Carswell) and feeding a divide with the two main LEAVE camps is clear evidence that he puts his ego before winning the referendum. Is that so hard for you to see?
The net result of what you call "Farage's antics" is that LEAVE are in their strongest position ever and he is the most popular leader.. if LEAVE were in their worst ever position and he was the least popular leader, you and the haters might have a point, but it is straining credulity to say what you do in the face of the facts
Leave are in their strongest position ever I totally agree ... but only after Boris, Gove, Hoey and others have become the public face of Leave lately rather than Farage.
Deja vu? Will he be photographed walking outside the plant and buying George an ice cream I wonder?
Why didn't he hold it several months ago when it might have made a difference.
I'm starting to think Cameronism is bolting the stable door when the horse has bolted. He always seems to be on catch up and in a flap.
Why? Because he couldn't give a toss about northern jobs or welsh jobs. They aren't his mates they don't vote for him and heavy industry is backwards.
For Redcar the excuse was sneering and laughably transparent - "we can't do anything blame the EU". This time even they aren't dumb enough to miss that "blame the EU" would send working peasant types in their hordes out to vote Leave. So they'll pretend to listen this time for long enough to get past the referendum. Then let it close. You steelworker types can get a job in Subway*
*(local press had a field day with that up here - highly skilled, 20 years experience, go make butties or we will sanction you)
I think Steel is one manufacturing we should make an exception for. It's the political posturing I dislike.
Up here on Teesside we'd take a bit of posturing - it'd be a step on from the absolute silence we get currently. Redcar is shut. Gone forever. Anna Soubry (that left-wing harridan) has confessed that she lobbied Javid to at least keep the place mothballed so that a rescue could be done but he refused to do anything to intervene.
And what we then got was a "package" for the workforce where a substantial amount was their statutory rights, and my local MP for Columbo (Wharton) first of all said steel was "not my brief" then described the protesting steelworkers as "people gathered on a beach" and the closure as a "tragic distraction" from the Northern Powerhouse then didn't bother attending a single emergency debate on the closure.
Labour did a poor job last time the plant was threatened - presumably pushed by the same "its the free market" mandarins advising Javid to not have an industrial policy - which is why Vera Baird lost her seat. But at least then it was mothballed. This time its gone - and the utter contempt shown by the local Tory MP/Northern Poorhouse minister would be deplorable if it wasn't his usual form.
What can the government do to fix this? I guess we need to think of the short and long term.
If Javid's line is nothing can be done, then he should resign as he obviously has no job.
Maybe his job is about encouraging more productive industries that aren't flooding the market at rock-bottom prices.
Earlier today we were discussing whether a risk to a potential 2% change in GDP is a "price worth paying". I believe from memory the steel industry as a whole is currently worth 0.1% of GDP.
Deja vu? Will he be photographed walking outside the plant and buying George an ice cream I wonder?
Why didn't he hold it several months ago when it might have made a difference.
I'm starting to think Cameronism is bolting the stable door when the horse has bolted. He always seems to be on catch up and in a flap.
Why? Because he couldn't give a toss about northern jobs or welsh jobs. They aren't his mates they don't vote for him and heavy industry is backwards.
For Redcar the excuse was sneering and laughably transparent - "we can't do anything blame the EU". This time even they aren't dumb enough to miss that "blame the EU" would send working peasant types in their hordes out to vote Leave. So they'll pretend to listen this time for long enough to get past the referendum. Then let it close. You steelworker types can get a job in Subway*
*(local press had a field day with that up here - highly skilled, 20 years experience, go make butties or we will sanction you)
Well while agree Cameron doesn't give a toss about manufacturing jobs I hardly think he's alone. Blair and Brown cavalierly let huge slices of the sector go to the wall. Much of the Cameron problem such as ridiculous energy prices were kicked off by Brown. None of the political parties has a decent record on the sector, mostly as theyre stuffed with politicos who haven't a clue how manufacturing works. Too much like getting their hands dirty.
Procurement and state-aid rules mean the government cannot simply hand every state infrastructure project to Tata or hand over cash to prop up Port Talbot. For example, the EU has called for Belgium to take back €211m of state aid used to prop up steelmaker Duferco Group, while an investigation has been launched into Italy’s support for Ilva. The Belgian support was considered illegal because “you could not find a market investor that would give them the kinds of loans they got from the authorities”. But again, it is not clear whether the UK government actually wants to go down this path. There are also ways around the rules, such as offering loans instead of cash. While the EU blocks support for “manufacturers in difficulties”, it allows nurturing the “long-term competitiveness and efficiency” of industry.
James Kelly is blogging about a new online poll by BMG that puts Leave in front by four points. Does anyone know anything about this? Apparently it came out yesterday.
If Javid's line is nothing can be done, then he should resign as he obviously has no job.
Maybe his job is about encouraging more productive industries that aren't flooding the market at rock-bottom prices.
Earlier today we were discussing whether a risk to a potential 2% change in GDP is a "price worth paying". I believe from memory the steel industry as a whole is currently worth 0.1% of GDP.
Historically the unions haven't liked to talk to business people or Tories and business people haven't liked to talk to unions or Labour. It's been a recipe for de-industrialisation and a weakening of the nation.
If Javid's line is nothing can be done, then he should resign as he obviously has no job.
Maybe his job is about encouraging more productive industries that aren't flooding the market at rock-bottom prices.
Earlier today we were discussing whether a risk to a potential 2% change in GDP is a "price worth paying". I believe from memory the steel industry as a whole is currently worth 0.1% of GDP.
No country can consider itself a major industrial nation without a steel industry of its own . How long would Britain have lasted in WW2 with no steel industry ?
If Javid's line is nothing can be done, then he should resign as he obviously has no job.
Maybe his job is about encouraging more productive industries that aren't flooding the market at rock-bottom prices.
Earlier today we were discussing whether a risk to a potential 2% change in GDP is a "price worth paying". I believe from memory the steel industry as a whole is currently worth 0.1% of GDP.
Since 2008 RBS has lost on average £19.5 million per day. Why's it still there ?
If Javid's line is nothing can be done, then he should resign as he obviously has no job.
Maybe his job is about encouraging more productive industries that aren't flooding the market at rock-bottom prices.
Earlier today we were discussing whether a risk to a potential 2% change in GDP is a "price worth paying". I believe from memory the steel industry as a whole is currently worth 0.1% of GDP.
No country can consider itself a major industrial nation without a steel industry of its own . How long would Britain have lasted in WW2 with no steel industry ?
What a sunny outlook on life you have. Are we at risk of being in a similar situation soon?
The sooner Farage is gone the better. UKIP, to have a future, need to be a party, not a Cult of Nigel.
Is the ambition for UKIP to have a future or to get out of Europe? The two are mutually exclusive.
If LEAVE wins there is no need for UKIP. No wonder Farage is trying hard to lose.
Isnt it incredible how memes set in on here.. repetition maybe?
LEAVE haven't been closer in the polls since the referendum was called, while Farage is way clear in the leader ratings, but people say he is a drag on the cause and is trying to lose! Why let facts get in the way?
Farage's antics within UKIP (e.g. attacks on Evans and Carswell) and feeding a divide with the two main LEAVE camps is clear evidence that he puts his ego before winning the referendum. Is that so hard for you to see?
The net result of what you call "Farage's antics" is that LEAVE are in their strongest position ever and he is the most popular leader.. if LEAVE were in their worst ever position and he was the least popular leader, you and the haters might have a point, but it is straining credulity to say what you do in the face of the facts
iSAM you are unique in being almost the only person advocating LEAVE on here that also believes that Farage is doing great things for LEAVE. Almost a love that dare not speak its name. The current polling is not the result of Farage's antics which have in the case of Evans wasted media time that should have been spent advocating LEAVE. The polling of LEAVE at present is despite Farage not becuase of his recent decisions. It has more to do with voters reactions to the REMAIN campaign and most of the LEAVE messages and people in the media are from the VOTE LEAVE group. Without Farage' antics it is possible that LEAVE could be well ahead in the polls.
If Javid's line is nothing can be done, then he should resign as he obviously has no job.
Maybe his job is about encouraging more productive industries that aren't flooding the market at rock-bottom prices.
Earlier today we were discussing whether a risk to a potential 2% change in GDP is a "price worth paying". I believe from memory the steel industry as a whole is currently worth 0.1% of GDP.
No country can consider itself a major industrial nation without a steel industry of its own . How long would Britain have lasted in WW2 with no steel industry ?
What a sunny outlook on life you have. Are we at risk of being in a similar situation soon?
Certainly, haven't you been following the Remain campaign ?
If Javid's line is nothing can be done, then he should resign as he obviously has no job.
Maybe his job is about encouraging more productive industries that aren't flooding the market at rock-bottom prices.
Earlier today we were discussing whether a risk to a potential 2% change in GDP is a "price worth paying". I believe from memory the steel industry as a whole is currently worth 0.1% of GDP.
Since 2008 RBS has lost on average £19.5 million per day. Why's it still there ?
A question I must admit I have asked myself a lot as well.
Why was it not broken up and those bits that could be salvaged demerged - NatWest and overseas branches sold off, for a start, and the ABN Amro sale repudiated - and the rest put into liquidation?
If that was too complicated to do, there was something very wrong about the way it was being run (although a £24 billion loss in one financial year suggests that was probably true anyway).
Deja vu? Will he be photographed walking outside the plant and buying George an ice cream I wonder?
Why didn't he hold it several months ago when it might have made a difference.
I'm starting to think Cameronism is bolting the stable door when the horse has bolted. He always seems to be on catch up and in a flap.
Why? Because he couldn't give a toss about northern jobs or welsh jobs. They aren't his mates they don't vote for him and heavy industry is backwards.
For Redcar the excuse was sneering and laughably transparent - "we can't do anything blame the EU". This time even they aren't dumb enough to miss that "blame the EU" would send working peasant types in their hordes out to vote Leave. So they'll pretend to listen this time for long enough to get past the referendum. Then let it close. You steelworker types can get a job in Subway*
*(local press had a field day with that up here - highly skilled, 20 years experience, go make butties or we will sanction you)
In fairness no governments have done well with industry since almost before the war. The idea that governments create the conditions for industry to thrive have gone by the wayside. All parties have been lamentable in this regard and none have an excuse. Yes you can certainly target the Tories but if you look at history Labour have been as bad if not worse for manufacturing and the heavier industries. The loss of shipbuilding a core industry and skill probably started the rot and it has continued unabated ever since.
Parliament should all hang their collective heads in shame at such events and the loss of skills that will be very difficult to recover if at all.
James Kelly is blogging about a new online poll by BMG that puts Leave in front by four points. Does anyone know anything about this? Apparently it came out yesterday.
If Javid's line is nothing can be done, then he should resign as he obviously has no job.
Maybe his job is about encouraging more productive industries that aren't flooding the market at rock-bottom prices.
Earlier today we were discussing whether a risk to a potential 2% change in GDP is a "price worth paying". I believe from memory the steel industry as a whole is currently worth 0.1% of GDP.
Since 2008 RBS has lost on average £19.5 million per day. Why's it still there ?
A question I must admit I have asked myself a lot as well.
Why was it not broken up and those bits that could be salvaged demerged - NatWest and overseas branches sold off, for a start, and the ABN Amro sale repudiated - and the rest put into liquidation?
If that was too complicated to do, there was something very wrong about the way it was being run (although a £24 billion loss in one financial year suggests that was probably true anyway).
And despite the humungous losses it's STILL too big to fail.
If Javid's line is nothing can be done, then he should resign as he obviously has no job.
Maybe his job is about encouraging more productive industries that aren't flooding the market at rock-bottom prices.
Earlier today we were discussing whether a risk to a potential 2% change in GDP is a "price worth paying". I believe from memory the steel industry as a whole is currently worth 0.1% of GDP.
No country can consider itself a major industrial nation without a steel industry of its own . How long would Britain have lasted in WW2 with no steel industry ?
What a sunny outlook on life you have. Are we at risk of being in a similar situation soon?
Certainly, haven't you been following the Remain campaign ?
What can the government do to fix this? I guess we need to think of the short and long term.
Basic principle in project management - start with the end in mind. The end has to be "a functioning UK steel industry" so that we can build the infrastructure/vehicles/warships we need today and may need tomorrow without being reliant on currency to send abroad to a foreign importer.
If Tata don't want to take the hit on competing with Chinese state subsidy then it will have to be British state subsidy. A free market is only free when its properly open - subsidy on one side only rigs the market. And when we provide subsidy we would be taking equity - we will give you the money but we want to take a stake in the operation to ensure success and return value for the taxpayer.
We need to copy the rest of Europe - state owned enterprises in key industries of national importance. Its absurd that all my local buses are German my local trains German I can pay the French for electricity and have the French post office deliver the products I bought off the internet on my part-German mobile phone - and then have the Tories insist that state ownership doesn't work.
Comments
England in last four overs: 4-0-20-5
I know of one study done a short while back and funded by a pro-EU group where the said group continually asked the consultants doing the report 'why can't you make the effects [of EU exit] bigger?' when given the sort of 1-2% numbers mentioned earlier.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12207125/EU-referendum-Brexit-could-take-up-to-10-years-to-happen-warns-former-top-civil-servant.html
@Pong or @Tissue_Price tipped Reckless at 25s last year, that looks good seeing as he appears to be in w the in crowd... Id say he is still a great bet at 20s
Am tempted to go for Texas too at 14/1
Labour Party
If Cameron won’t stand up for British industry & workers - Labour will. Sign our petition: https://t.co/gaFm1OKilc https://t.co/wO8GwhVuOb
It is all hypothetical as Farage will try his hardest to remain leader for as long as possible.
Where was O'Donnell when the memoranda of any exit terms were being drawn up all those years ago? Wasn't he meant to be overseeing this stuff? He's clearly gone Euro native - it's no wonder the civil service are all so desperate to stay. The whole lot have been infected.
Trump either goes to the convention with enough votes or with a few hundred short but a landslide ahead of Cruz. So rigging it for not-Trump (who???) would blow away the final pretence that this is a democracy. They'd be better acquiescing to demands for open carry a the convention. Then have him assassinated (it worked for the Dems in 68...)
The Tories won't go near any hint of nationalisation and Labour has its own problems.
China is dumping steel and the EU will prevent major tariffs, but Labour can't go big on that because they like the EU. Energy costs are too high but Labour can't go big on that because Wallace put them on to be Green. So nationalisation, it is.
The BBC are tip-toeing round the tariff issue because of their own sensitivity.
Wouldn't it be nice if people were honest?
I've been looking into the steel production mess, but figures seem hard to come by. According to Wiki Port Talbot *can* produce 5 million tonnes of steel slab per year, but I was wondering what they have produced over the last few years, and what UK consumption of slab/strip/coil steel is.
Anyone have better Google-fu than me?
Don't let me down now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-23941086
The family of Jean Charles de Menezes have lost their legal battle to hold the police officers who shot him to account.
They lodged a case with the European Court of Human Rights to challenge the decision by the Crown Prosecution Service not to prosecute any individuals over the 27-year-old Brazilian's death.
http://news.sky.com/story/1669626/family-loses-legal-fight-over-de-menezes-death
Collective sighs of relief around the armed squads today as that could have changed the whole armed response approach all together and probably not for the better.
Asked if she wants to respond to a Falklands vet's concerns about Labour's stance on the islands, Emily Thornberry says: "No, not really."
http://www.eef.org.uk/uksteel/About-the-industry/Steel-facts/Output-UK.htm
The EU has become an embedded part of their career structure and world view over the last 40 years. They can't imagine being without it now, either in terms of the opportunities for personal advancement it gives them or the way it slots into their whole working process.
To be honest, a complete clear out would make sense if Brexit occurs. Something like what happened in some of the central and eastern European states in the early 1990s. A lot of the people in the Civil Service, especially the upper echelons, just won't be any use in the new situation.
As long as she isn't a total idiot, it's a win-win for them.
The feeling of Deja-vu with the EU Referendum is strengthening. Just like 1975, the Establishment can't stop itself. In 1975, I was Pro-Europe and it was embarrassing enough then.
I think Steel is one manufacturing we should make an exception for. It's the political posturing I dislike.
At least initially.
Our children and their children risk growing up not knowing what Brexit looks like.
89-3
http://www.espncricinfo.com/icc-world-twenty20-2016/engine/match/951339.html
Not as bad as I feared: we're not overproducing.
Probably better for Leave on balance.
And what we then got was a "package" for the workforce where a substantial amount was their statutory rights, and my local MP for Columbo (Wharton) first of all said steel was "not my brief" then described the protesting steelworkers as "people gathered on a beach" and the closure as a "tragic distraction" from the Northern Powerhouse then didn't bother attending a single emergency debate on the closure.
Labour did a poor job last time the plant was threatened - presumably pushed by the same "its the free market" mandarins advising Javid to not have an industrial policy - which is why Vera Baird lost her seat. But at least then it was mothballed. This time its gone - and the utter contempt shown by the local Tory MP/Northern Poorhouse minister would be deplorable if it wasn't his usual form.
When the NeverTrump guys showed up I knew that Republican politicians would prefer to blow themselves and their party, rather than hand the nomination to Trump.
They will get their wish, as you can see everyone involved in the GOP primary has seen his numbers crash :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/24/the-only-political-entity-less-popular-than-congress-and-the-gop-donald-j-trump/?tid=a_inl
Since the primaries began, Hillary and the Democratic party favourables have gone up, with Republicans it's gone down severely, right now the average Republican has the favourables that Trump had back in November.
And contrast the 2 different long term directions of the 2 parties:
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/republican-party-favorable-rating
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/democratic-party-favorable-rating
In a 2 party system when one party is hated by a margin of 2-1 by the voters then it's doomed.
David Cameron rules out recalling MPs as he sets up ministerial talks for Thursday, with thousands of jobs hanging in the balance.
http://news.sky.com/story/1669193/pm-to-hold-steel-crisis-emergency-meeting
Deja vu?
Will he be photographed walking outside the plant and buying George an ice cream I wonder?
Is that so hard for you to see?
I'm starting to think Cameronism is bolting the stable door when the horse has bolted. He always seems to be on catch up and in a flap.
Steel manufacturing is cyclical and necessary for the UK.
In five years time, we will regret we weren't pro-active. I'd keep a couple of coal mines on the go too for the same reason. But you can't reason with Tories, Europhiles and Greens all in one go.
Jezza, of course, will happily bankrupt the country for a cause, or even the sniff of a cause. Nationalisation isn't the long-term answer but with Jezza, you'd have ten times the workforce producing half as much steel.
It's the multiplier, you see, it will make us all rich.
May I be the first to shout
Only 84 days 6 hours 53 minutes and 23 ..22 ... 21 seconds to save the NHS !!!!!!
I seriously hope Vote Leave gets the nod as the official campaign. When does the decision get announced?
For Redcar the excuse was sneering and laughably transparent - "we can't do anything blame the EU". This time even they aren't dumb enough to miss that "blame the EU" would send working peasant types in their hordes out to vote Leave. So they'll pretend to listen this time for long enough to get past the referendum. Then let it close. You steelworker types can get a job in Subway*
*(local press had a field day with that up here - highly skilled, 20 years experience, go make butties or we will sanction you)
Can Project Fear get ever more ridiculous?
Earlier today we were discussing whether a risk to a potential 2% change in GDP is a "price worth paying". I believe from memory the steel industry as a whole is currently worth 0.1% of GDP.
Roy has gone! We're doomed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12196908/Britains-NHS-cant-survive-staying-in-the-European-Union.html
The current polling is not the result of Farage's antics which have in the case of Evans wasted media time that should have been spent advocating LEAVE. The polling of LEAVE at present is despite Farage not becuase of his recent decisions. It has more to do with voters reactions to the REMAIN campaign and most of the LEAVE messages and people in the media are from the VOTE LEAVE group. Without Farage' antics it is possible that LEAVE could be well ahead in the polls.
Why was it not broken up and those bits that could be salvaged demerged - NatWest and overseas branches sold off, for a start, and the ABN Amro sale repudiated - and the rest put into liquidation?
If that was too complicated to do, there was something very wrong about the way it was being run (although a £24 billion loss in one financial year suggests that was probably true anyway).
The loss of shipbuilding a core industry and skill probably started the rot and it has continued unabated ever since.
Parliament should all hang their collective heads in shame at such events and the loss of skills that will be very difficult to recover if at all.
http://us11.campaign-archive2.com/?u=7fc68042ca102c052ac0e0f61&id=97dfd0786a
If Tata don't want to take the hit on competing with Chinese state subsidy then it will have to be British state subsidy. A free market is only free when its properly open - subsidy on one side only rigs the market. And when we provide subsidy we would be taking equity - we will give you the money but we want to take a stake in the operation to ensure success and return value for the taxpayer.
We need to copy the rest of Europe - state owned enterprises in key industries of national importance. Its absurd that all my local buses are German my local trains German I can pay the French for electricity and have the French post office deliver the products I bought off the internet on my part-German mobile phone - and then have the Tories insist that state ownership doesn't work.