Eventually someone like Cruz is going to get elected in a very big western nation, and then...
I watched a bit of the Trump and Cruz speeches last night on Fox News (it was post 10.30, bugger all else on the 900+ channels available to me - Sky Sports was showing live badminton ffs...). To be honest, Cruz troubled me more than Trump did.
Islamic extremism did not start in 2003. It started decades beforehand. It has its roots in Islam - it may not define Islam but it has its roots in it - and has been developed by Islamist ideologues such as Hassan-al-Banna and Sayyid Qutb, the former from the 1920s and the latter in the 1950s. The ideological roots of IS come from many sources but it is Western egoism and historical illiteracy to think that it is our fault that such an ideology has developed in the Islamic world.
As if Muslims were incapable of behaving save as forced by others.
Muslims are not children. They are as capable of making moral choices as anyone else. They are as capable of choosing good or evil. They should not be excused from the choices that they make. And, sadly, some of them have chosen evil. As we see in Brussels today - and have seen here and in Madrid and Paris and Copenhagen and Tunisia and Egypt and in countless places in the Middle East.
Let's reserve our pity for the victims, the many victims, of these evil choices. And stop making the victims guilty of or responsible for what their murderers chose to do.
I would say it started even earlier than that. Look at the Muslim invasions of India and the same "convert or die" tactics used.
Mohammed himself authorised his followers to kill poets that criticised him. He endorsed taking sex slaves from the women of conquered tribes. He backed vicious punishments for theft and adultery. He had sex with a child of nine. In its origin it is a terrible system of beliefs. Perhaps you can try to have a moderate Islam, but it would be similar to developing moderate fascism. There will always be the temptation to shift to the historic hardline form.
I read on a website recently that in terms of global population at the time, the greatest death toll of humanity was caused by the Muslim conquest of Arabia, Africa and Europe from 620-750AD.
Bigger than WW1, WW2, anything in China, etc
I'd find the link but I'm too depressed by stuff (not Brussels). Hah.
Wasn't the introduction of European diseases into the Americas worse? Possibly 10 million or so killed within a couple of generations - at a time the global population was ~500m.
'This morning's Brussels attacks are a terrible tragedy not something on which to make a political point' - M.Smithson.
'Europe must stand together against terror' - D.Cameron
Are you suggesting we shouldn't stand together against terror?
Lord you are a tit sometimes Richard. You don't think in the heat of a bitterly contested EU referendum campaign that saying 'Europe must stand together against terror' is just a tiny teeny bit of a 'political point'? The whole world should stand up against Islam. But that's not quite what Dave said. He was, err, making a political point out of the tragedy.
He really wasn't. Politicians ALWAYS say things like that when atrocities such as this occur. He said similar things about Tunisia and San Bernadino. He'll say similar things about any future atrocities which our friends and allies suffer. Politicians around the world have been saying similar things about the Brussels attacks.
Normally sensible people seem to have lost reason over the EU referendum, and most especially about Cameron's position in the referendum. The psychology of it is fascinating to watch.
Thats exactly the problem though. The bland platitudes given rather than a rigorous defence of Western values over the backwards beliefs of traditional Islam. Cameron has spoken out more today against UKIP tweets then he has about the far worse things in the Quran that inspire these radicals.
That's a very real but different issue. It is one that needs addressing. There are some very real, and very violent phrases and passages in the Koran that terrorists and extremists use to justify their actions. Until world leaders stand up and specifically say that any sect of Islam which endorses these parts of the Koran are not going to be accepted in the west then nothing will change. We need to be the driving force of change, at least for Muslims in the west. Those that wish to practice the barbaric and fundamentalist versions can go to a country where it is acceptable. We can not tolerate the intolerant any longer.
Eventually someone like Cruz is going to get elected in a very big western nation, and then...
I am not a Trump fan, but isn't he just basically saying what Trump has been bashing on about for months in terms of immigration, but framed in a more nuanced way. Hasn't Cruz also now back "The Wall" as well now, again following The Donald.
The only difference seems to be Trump recent weird NATO comments. Which even by Trump standard was utterly bonkers.
As an outer, I have to say this afternoon has not been PB's finest hour. I think people need to forget about the referendum for a few days.
Good idea. In any case we're going to drive ourselves bonkers (insofar as we are currently sane) if we talk about nothing else for 3 months.
Surely it would be more productive for both inners and outers to knock on a few doors and talk to some undecided voters rather than preaching to the converted on here
Islamic extremism did not start in 2003. It started decades beforehand. It has its roots in Islam - it may not define Islam but it has its roots in it - and has been developed by Islamist ideologues such as Hassan-al-Banna and Sayyid Qutb, the former from the 1920s and the latter in the 1950s. The ideological roots of IS come from many sources but it is Western egoism and historical illiteracy to think that it is our fault that such an ideology has developed in the Islamic world.
As if Muslims were incapable of behaving save as forced by others.
Muslims are not children. They are as capable of making moral choices as anyone else. They are as capable of choosing good or evil. They should not be excused from the choices that they make. And, sadly, some of them have chosen evil. As we see in Brussels today - and have seen here and in Madrid and Paris and Copenhagen and Tunisia and Egypt and in countless places in the Middle East.
Let's reserve our pity for the victims, the many victims, of these evil choices. And stop making the victims guilty of or responsible for what their murderers chose to do.
Tories and Blairites didn't invent wahabi and salafist extremism but they've done a very good job of aiding and abetting its proponents at every turn over the last half a century. A revolting history that of course doesn't fit in with the Orwellian inner worlds of the PB Tories. For any Tory turn to around and complain about Corbyn's eminently sensible approaches takes that uniquely Conservative blend of chutzpah and blinkered ignorance to extremes.
The only person showing blinkered ignorance here, sunshine, is you.
@Casino_Royale mentioned confirmation bias this morning. Sadly, he is 100% correct. Everyone is taking from this tragedy whatever they want to take. Isn't it enough for now simply to mourn for the dead and to send our condolences to the bereaved?
16:23 GMT Brabant Flanders’ regional governor has confirmed that a third bomb was found at the airport and destroyed by security services, Reuters reported.
On the subject of the EU referendum, I find it interesting how the term "Brexit" has become totally synonymous with the referendum, despite it being only one of the two outcomes and the one considered on balance less likely. I get bombarded with so many work emails and flyers for events "about Brexit", "the Brexit vote", or even "with Brexit very nearly upon us". I don't know whether innocent misuse of the term could instill a subliminal view of "Brexit" in voters' minds?
Either way, I think I've settled now in the "Reluctant Remainers" camp. I detest the EU as much as I ever have if not more, but fear the uncertainty and the inevitable major downsides (and more minor inconveniences) leaving would cause, whatever the potential longer term benefits. Let's stay in, keep arguing against things we don't like, have a modicum of a say over legislation rather than having to swallow it come what may, and have a proper crack at renegotiating our position when we get a PM with more balls or when the EU inevitably fractures or collapses in due course...
Wales has been very gradually shifting against Labour, relative to the rest of the country, since 1970. There was a shift back to Labour in 1987, and 1992, probably due to having a Welsh leader, but then the pro-Conservative shift resumed, in relative terms. 11 Welsh seats is a very strong Conservative result, by historical standards. They beat that in 1983, with 14 seats, but that was when the party led by 16% nationally.
I suspect that could be an unintended consequence of Devolution in that Labour has remained in charge at Cardiff ever since the Assembly was formed.When things go wrong the Devolved Govt is blamed everybit as much as the Westminster Govt.
I think entrenching a Labour Govt was very much the intended consequence -carving out a fiefdom to endlessly rule. Ironically the Wales was always in Scotland's wake on Devolution and it's probably worked far more to "plan" for Labour in Wales than in Scotland, where from a Labour perspective it's gone seriously pear shaped of course.
That said, Labour has done well with its leaders in Wales, Alun, Rhodri, and Carwyn have all been "up to the job" and most of the Islington tendency head banging doesn't seem to sit well here. However, they are also lucky that the opposition to Labour is much more split than in Scotland at present (obviously) and there seems nigh on no realistic electoral maths that does not involve Labour in some way shape or form forming all or part of the Govt after the elections in May. A Plaid/Lib (if any left), Tory/Ukip tie up is fanciful, and given Labour at worst are going to end up in the mid 20's of seats and 31 is a majority they will be quite a bloc to overcome if not inside Govt.
A big issue here is the M4 relief motorway around Newport with Labour (officially with the odd rebel) and the Tories (gung ho for it) in support and Plaid having big reservations about "the south east being favoured" (sound familiar?). All depends on if the Labour + Libs = 31 (prob not), or what price Plaid would charge for support. Otherwise a minority Govt?
On topic. Clearly Brussels event appalling. Sympathy order of the day to all victims.
I don't think Labour had worked out in advance that permanent power at Cardiff -whether majority or minority - would lead to them getting the flak when things went wrong. This is also probably costing Labour seats at Westminster elections.
Mr. Alistair, if we had a Christian State doing what ISIS/Daesh is doing, that would be a more valid question.
Islam/Muslims are more prone to fundamentalism than Christianity/Christians. It's a longer journey from a Liberal or Conservative [in religious senses] to extremism than it is from Fundamentalist or Literalist perspectives (although it can happen, as we've seen particularly with converts).
It very strong stuff. Both he and Trump are talking about dumping the visa-waiver program for the EU because the EU has "adopted policies in immigration that are threatening the safety of their citizens". That if there is even a slight bit more terrorist activity in the EU that is going to become political mainstream in the US.
Eventually someone like Cruz is going to get elected in a very big western nation, and then...
I am not a Trump fan, but isn't he just basically saying what Trump has been bashing on about for months in terms of immigration, but framed in a more nuanced way. Hasn't Cruz also now back "The Wall" as well now, again following The Donald.
The only difference seems to be Trump recent weird NATO comments. Which even by Trump standard was utterly bonkers.
Mr. Sykes, I'd urge you to reconsider. Short-term comfort for long-term pain is doing things the wrong way around. A vote to stay in does not avert the pain, it merely defers and deepens it.
@Casino_Royale mentioned confirmation bias this morning. Sadly, he is 100% correct. Everyone is taking from this tragedy whatever they want to take. Isn't it enough for now simply to mourn for the dead and to send our condolences to the bereaved?
It's a bit late for that. That was the official position at about 8.20am. Even Mike has been posting about the betting implications since about noon. lol
Imo one should carry on with life when these things happen and that includes betting.
When the bombs start going off, make an extra effort to keep your brain working. That's not exploitation; it's a necessity. One thing you can be sure of: all governments in affected countries will be doing their utmost to draw political capital from this. As Clausewitz put it, war is the continuation of politics by other means.
Stop the war. Bring British soldiers home. Leave NATO. Stop military and all other interference in Muslim countries. Please, no-one tell me that I am disrespecting the dead by saying that.
British soldiers should be protecting Britain. They should be training security guys and other staff at shopping centres, transport hubs, etc., many of whom haven't got a clue. If you've ever tried to report suspicious behaviour to them, you'll be able to confirm that.
British soldiers should not be engaged in unwinnable foreign wars for US big business, as part of the Zionists' global "war on terror". F*** that and protect Britain.
Mr. Alistair, if we had a Christian State doing what ISIS/Daesh is doing, that would be a more valid question.
Have you never been to Amish / Mennonite counties in the US ;-) ....if you are lucky you might get away having just been hard sold some candy and a weird doll...if you are really unlucky and engage with them too much, you will have to buy a new handmade 3 piece suite before you can escape.
@Casino_Royale mentioned confirmation bias this morning. Sadly, he is 100% correct. Everyone is taking from this tragedy whatever they want to take. Isn't it enough for now simply to mourn for the dead and to send our condolences to the bereaved?
It's a bit late for that. That was the official position at about 8.20am. Even Mike has been posting about the betting implications since about noon. lol
Imo one should carry on with life when these things happen and that includes betting.
Maybe one thing the west should do is to stop fellating the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and also Qatar. The money flows from there.
Sure. The money does. But Iran is a source of the ideology - and a source of money. Egypt is also a source of the ideology.
The plain fact is that whether you talk about Sunnis or Shias or Wahabis or those who follow the Muslim Brotherhood or support Hamas or Al Qaeda or IS or Al Nusra or any of the other groups/groupuscules, whether supported or financed by states or not, at their base is an interpretation of Islam. Whether it is a wrong interpretation or not who knows. But enough people do follow it and act on it, both in the Middle East and in Muslim communities in Europe, to make the presence of Muslim communities, let alone their increase, in Europe a problem.
No amount of whistling in the wind and hoping for the best and saying that it is not the correct interpretation and that most Muslims don't subscribe to this version will wish this unpalatable fact away.
And one more unpalatable fact which must be faced up to is this (and I quote from an unnamed German who made this point ca. 2 years ago):-
"We are told again and again by ‘experts’ and ‘talking heads’ that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.
The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the ’silent majority,’ is cowed and extraneous.
Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts–the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Most of the general public know this, all across the world, but our politicians are in denial and offer only appeasement.
Like the silent Muslims, we remain silent and acquiescent, while our freedoms gradually disappear."
On the subject of the EU referendum, I find it interesting how the term "Brexit" has become totally synonymous with the referendum, despite it being only one of the two outcomes and the one considered on balance less likely. I get bombarded with so many work emails and flyers for events "about Brexit", "the Brexit vote", or even "with Brexit very nearly upon us". I don't know whether innocent misuse of the term could instill a subliminal view of "Brexit" in voters' minds?
Either way, I think I've settled now in the "Reluctant Remainers" camp. I detest the EU as much as I ever have if not more, but fear the uncertainty and the inevitable major downsides (and more minor inconveniences) leaving would cause, whatever the potential longer term benefits. Let's stay in, keep arguing against things we don't like, have a modicum of a say over legislation rather than having to swallow it come what may, and have a proper crack at renegotiating our position when we get a PM with more balls or when the EU inevitably fractures or collapses in due course...
I had a remarkable chat about Brexit with a lefty mate last night. He told me he was possibly voting OUT, which was quite a big surprise (he's no Corbynite), even more incredibly, he told his wife (apolitical, British-Chinese, probably Lib Dem or Green if forced) is definitely OUT. I'd have had her down as 100% REMAIN.
I'm starting to wonder if REMAIN is in real trouble. Some very unexpected people are LEAVE.
One of remain's central arguments, that we are 'safer' in the EU in an unstable world, has been shown up today to be a giant, rotten lie.
'This morning's Brussels attacks are a terrible tragedy not something on which to make a political point' - M.Smithson.
'Europe must stand together against terror' - D.Cameron
Are you suggesting we shouldn't stand together against terror?
Lord you are a tit sometimes Richard. You don't think in the heat of a bitterly contested EU referendum campaign that saying 'Europe must stand together against terror' is just a tiny teeny bit of a 'political point'? The whole world should stand up against Islam. But that's not quite what Dave said. He was, err, making a political point out of the tragedy.
He really wasn't. Politicians ALWAYS say things like that when atrocities such as this occur. He said similar things about Tunisia and San Bernadino. He'll say similar things about any future atrocities which our friends and allies suffer. Politicians around the world have been saying similar things about the Brussels attacks.
Normally sensible people seem to have lost reason over the EU referendum, and most especially about Cameron's position in the referendum. The psychology of it is fascinating to watch.
Thats exactly the problem though. The bland platitudes given rather than a rigorous defence of Western values over the backwards beliefs of traditional Islam. Cameron has spoken out more today against UKIP tweets then he has about the far worse things in the Quran that inspire these radicals.
That's a very real but different issue. It is one that needs addressing. There are some very real, and very violent phrases and passages in the Koran that terrorists and extremists use to justify their actions. Until world leaders stand up and specifically say that any sect of Islam which endorses these parts of the Koran are not going to be accepted in the west then nothing will change. We need to be the driving force of change, at least for Muslims in the west. Those that wish to practice the barbaric and fundamentalist versions can go to a country where it is acceptable. We can not tolerate the intolerant any longer.
A while back I read all the bible, then started the Koran. I only got halfway through the latter, as I found the Koran (and especially the accompanying Hadith) really unsettling for several reasons.
Just the concept of Isnad (the chain of people through which each individual hadith has been passed down) is unsettling. It all reinforces the idea that this is the real, unaltered word.
On the subject of the EU referendum, I find it interesting how the term "Brexit" has become totally synonymous with the referendum, despite it being only one of the two outcomes and the one considered on balance less likely. I get bombarded with so many work emails and flyers for events "about Brexit", "the Brexit vote", or even "with Brexit very nearly upon us". I don't know whether innocent misuse of the term could instill a subliminal view of "Brexit" in voters' minds?
Either way, I think I've settled now in the "Reluctant Remainers" camp. I detest the EU as much as I ever have if not more, but fear the uncertainty and the inevitable major downsides (and more minor inconveniences) leaving would cause, whatever the potential longer term benefits. Let's stay in, keep arguing against things we don't like, have a modicum of a say over legislation rather than having to swallow it come what may, and have a proper crack at renegotiating our position when we get a PM with more balls or when the EU inevitably fractures or collapses in due course...
Rathbones have just published their views. Still reviewing it but conclusion is that "even if the UK votes to leave, the economic and financial implications are likely to be more finely balanced than newspaper headlines imply"
On the subject of the EU referendum, I find it interesting how the term "Brexit" has become totally synonymous with the referendum, despite it being only one of the two outcomes and the one considered on balance less likely. I get bombarded with so many work emails and flyers for events "about Brexit", "the Brexit vote", or even "with Brexit very nearly upon us". I don't know whether innocent misuse of the term could instill a subliminal view of "Brexit" in voters' minds?
Either way, I think I've settled now in the "Reluctant Remainers" camp. I detest the EU as much as I ever have if not more, but fear the uncertainty and the inevitable major downsides (and more minor inconveniences) leaving would cause, whatever the potential longer term benefits. Let's stay in, keep arguing against things we don't like, have a modicum of a say over legislation rather than having to swallow it come what may, and have a proper crack at renegotiating our position when we get a PM with more balls or when the EU inevitably fractures or collapses in due course...
I had a remarkable chat about Brexit with a lefty mate last night. He told me he was possibly voting OUT, which was quite a big surprise (he's no Corbynite), even more incredibly, he told his wife (apolitical, British-Chinese, probably Lib Dem or Green if forced) is definitely OUT. I'd have had her down as 100% REMAIN.
I'm starting to wonder if REMAIN is in real trouble. Some very unexpected people are LEAVE.
One of remain's central arguments, that we are 'safer' in the EU in an unstable world, has been shown up today to be a giant, rotten lie.
@Casino_Royale mentioned confirmation bias this morning. Sadly, he is 100% correct. Everyone is taking from this tragedy whatever they want to take. Isn't it enough for now simply to mourn for the dead and to send our condolences to the bereaved?
Looking for a minute at German politics. Interesting to note that the grand coalition is down to 55% in the polls. That compares to a joint 67.2% in the last election.
The FDP have been consistently scoring above 5% as well, but I find it hard to believe they would get involved in any coalition after the election given how badly they got wiped out last time.
55% in a grand coalition would not be very stable given it is a left/right coalition.
FDP have been in coalitions with the SPD than later with the CDU/CSU which lasted for many years. In fact they have only been out of power for a few years between 1949 and 1987. They have always been in danger of dropping below the 5% but tended to rise above it as an election approached (until recently). In 2013 they scored 4.8% and got no representatives as the threshold is 5%. Germany is used to coalitions and the situation shouldn't be compared to this country.
Yes I know that. The FDP have never been smashed as badly as last time, the leadership will be wary of entering a grand coalition where they will be the whipping boys.
On the subject of the EU referendum, I find it interesting how the term "Brexit" has become totally synonymous with the referendum, despite it being only one of the two outcomes and the one considered on balance less likely. I get bombarded with so many work emails and flyers for events "about Brexit", "the Brexit vote", or even "with Brexit very nearly upon us". I don't know whether innocent misuse of the term could instill a subliminal view of "Brexit" in voters' minds?
Either way, I think I've settled now in the "Reluctant Remainers" camp. I detest the EU as much as I ever have if not more, but fear the uncertainty and the inevitable major downsides (and more minor inconveniences) leaving would cause, whatever the potential longer term benefits. Let's stay in, keep arguing against things we don't like, have a modicum of a say over legislation rather than having to swallow it come what may, and have a proper crack at renegotiating our position when we get a PM with more balls or when the EU inevitably fractures or collapses in due course...
I had a remarkable chat about Brexit with a lefty mate last night. He told me he was possibly voting OUT, which was quite a big surprise (he's no Corbynite), even more incredibly, he told his wife (apolitical, British-Chinese, probably Lib Dem or Green if forced) is definitely OUT. I'd have had her down as 100% REMAIN.
I'm starting to wonder if REMAIN is in real trouble. Some very unexpected people are LEAVE.
Conversely many acquaintances of mine who are natural eurosceptics are Remain.
He really wasn't. Politicians ALWAYS say things like that when atrocities such as this occur. He said similar things about Tunisia and San Bernadino. He'll say similar things about any future atrocities which our friends and allies suffer. Politicians around the world have been saying similar things about the Brussels attacks.
Normally sensible people seem to have lost reason over the EU referendum, and most especially about Cameron's position in the referendum. The psychology of it is fascinating to watch.
Thats exactly the problem though. The bland platitudes given rather than a rigorous defence of Western values over the backwards beliefs of traditional Islam. Cameron has spoken out more today against UKIP tweets then he has about the far worse things in the Quran that inspire these radicals.
That's a very real but different issue. It is one that needs addressing. There are some very real, and very violent phrases and passages in the Koran that terrorists and extremists use to justify their actions. Until world leaders stand up and specifically say that any sect of Islam which endorses these parts of the Koran are not going to be accepted in the west then nothing will change. We need to be the driving force of change, at least for Muslims in the west. Those that wish to practice the barbaric and fundamentalist versions can go to a country where it is acceptable. We can not tolerate the intolerant any longer.
A while back I read all the bible, then started the Koran. I only got halfway through the latter, as I found the Koran (and especially the accompanying Hadith) really unsettling for several reasons.
Just the concept of Isnad (the chain of people through which each individual hadith has been passed down) is unsettling. It all reinforces the idea that this is the real, unaltered word.
The bible has nothing like it.
Have you read Tom Holland's book on the origins of Islam? Shadow of the Sword I think. Quite interesting on isnads and their relationship to the Talmudic tradition.
On the subject of the EU referendum, I find it interesting how the term "Brexit" has become totally synonymous with the referendum, despite it being only one of the two outcomes and the one considered on balance less likely. I get bombarded with so many work emails and flyers for events "about Brexit", "the Brexit vote", or even "with Brexit very nearly upon us". I don't know whether innocent misuse of the term could instill a subliminal view of "Brexit" in voters' minds?
Either way, I think I've settled now in the "Reluctant Remainers" camp. I detest the EU as much as I ever have if not more, but fear the uncertainty and the inevitable major downsides (and more minor inconveniences) leaving would cause, whatever the potential longer term benefits. Let's stay in, keep arguing against things we don't like, have a modicum of a say over legislation rather than having to swallow it come what may, and have a proper crack at renegotiating our position when we get a PM with more balls or when the EU inevitably fractures or collapses in due course...
British soldiers should not be engaged in unwinnable foreign wars for US big business, as part of the Zionists' global "war on terror". F*** that and protect Britain.
We could, in theory, disengage totally and let the Muslims fester in their own hellhole. But only if we have 100% control of borders and immigration and keep them out with zero tolerance. Otherwise we are merely inviting a cancer to grow over there and then injecting said cancer into our own bloodstream. For example - what is now a 'reasonable' policy for our government to adopt for UK citizens who choose to go to Syria for some fun and games and a spot of beheading and then want to come home? Let them back? Let them back but monitor them? Shoot them while they're still in their black rags? Nothing at all? What should the policy be when a giant fucking bomb goes off in Oxford Street?
Islam is not compatible with western liberal democracy. At some point one or other of the two is going to have to break. Let it be them.
Well they should've worked out long spells in power would build up the flak - e.g. the travails of the ambulance service here have been a running sore and paraded every month when the stats come out, and yes the odd seat at the GE might've been lost because of it (Gower is the most marginal seat in the UK and was won by the Tories). That said as the vast majority of power resides in London there's a lot of chance of dodging some of it by blaming "Westminster" (reasonably enough).
It's the lack of real alternative that's worrying. Plaid are hopeless and a pale shadow of the SNP machine from what I can see (Wood v Sturgeon- 'nuff said!), the Libs too sparse, and the Tories a generation away at least from making any real go of it, despite recent progress. UKIP are the latest in the mix and though they will nick seats here and there on the list, and do "relatively well" up the Valleys I seriously doubt a major major game changing breakthrough. As long as Labour can get people to traipse out and vote for the proverbial donkey with a red rosette in the Rhondda, Caerphilly, P Talbot, Pontypool and the like, as they have done for over a hundred years the hegemony will be hard to break unless one party can hoover up pretty much the rest of Wales. That's not easy, given a rural centre, a Welsh speaking West, a "retiree N Coast" and a mixed economy M4 corridor in the far south. It's all a bit disparate to join together.
Will we be repudiating the nasty bits of the Bible too?
There are no Christians in the world who go around killing Jews because they refused to convert though. It is a completely false equivalence used by liberals to try and obfuscate or distract.
@Casino_Royale mentioned confirmation bias this morning. Sadly, he is 100% correct. Everyone is taking from this tragedy whatever they want to take. Isn't it enough for now simply to mourn for the dead and to send our condolences to the bereaved?
Some us have done just that.
There is a time for mourning and grieving.
And there is also a time for getting absolutely furious at those who bear responsibility for what has happened.
I am not going to change my vote based on what happened in Brussels. If anything, I feel closer to the Belgians as I did to the French after Bataclan. This could happen to anyone of us - and probably will. We should unite and fight back. For my money, there is too little uniting and pointless sympathy gestures which seem too much about how we look than real effective sympathy and too little fighting back at the bastards and those who sustain them.
Will we be repudiating the nasty bits of the Bible too?
How many Britons have been killed in recent years by Christians following such teachings? Oh, none you say? Then its a bit of a stupid point, isn't it?
Eventually someone like Cruz is going to get elected in a very big western nation, and then...
I am not a Trump fan, but isn't he just basically saying what Trump has been bashing on about for months in terms of immigration, but framed in a more nuanced way. Hasn't Cruz also now back "The Wall" as well now, again following The Donald.
The only difference seems to be Trump recent weird NATO comments. Which even by Trump standard was utterly bonkers.
Cruz has the zeal of the righteous about him.
Damn right, the second phrase sounds like a benediction.
...They have declare their intention to murder as many innocents as possible, and it is long past time that we had a president that will acknowledge this evil, will call it by it's name and use the full force and fury of the United States to defeat radical islamic terrorism, to defeat isis
Mr. Owl, Plaid may be hamstrung by the fact Wales has 3% of the UK's population and 2% of the wealth. Arguments were had over Scotland's prosperity (in total and per head), but if Wales tried to leave the standard of living would collapse.
Mr. Patrick, Islam's been around for about 1,400 years and has over a billion followers. Western democracy is a few centuries old (and nearly fell, in Europe, less than a hundred years ago).
Do European nations have the backbone to be honest, and the stomach to do what's necessary?
Just look at the reaction to the migrant crisis. The EU 'dissuaded' people from coming by rescuing them, taking them to the place the EU said they shouldn't go, permitting free movement, providing food, shelter and medical care.
Worked a treat, did it not?
Edited extra bit: just realised the ambiguity could mean my post could be wildly misinterpreted.
I'm not saying Islam = extremism. I am saying that the small but virulent extremist branch of Islam needs not so much pruning as hacked off, thrown in the fire, and the ashes shot into the heart of the sun.
A full-blown culture war (West versus Middle East or Christian versus Islam) would be a catastrophe.
Edited extra bit 2: we need to be firmer standing up for hard-won freedoms, most especially freedom of speech. Politicians and the media are letting us down badly.
One of remain's central arguments, that we are 'safer' in the EU in an unstable world, has been shown up today to be a giant, rotten lie.
Taffys, I'd be interested to hear you spell out your premises. Aren't you assuming that Belgium got bombed because it's in the EU? Well it's in NATO too, and more than that, it actually hosts the headquarters of NATO. And it's NATO and other forms of "cooperative" effort between the US military and the military forces of countries allied to the US that have been attacking and interfering in Muslim countries. It's not the EU. How hard have you tried to understand the enemy's point of view?
That said, it is undeniable that if enemy combatants are crossing Belgium's border to carry out terror attacks in Brussels, then clearly Belgian people should be pushing for better border controls.
Mr. L, the last book was written by someone on magic mushrooms. It's quite enjoyable, actually.
Yes it is strange. My favourite is probably Ecclesiastes. It is highly poetic. And the sermon on the mount. There is a lot of good philosophy there even for non believers. But there is a staggering percentage which has absolutely nothing to do with our society and nothing to teach us either.
Will we be repudiating the nasty bits of the Bible too?
How many Britons have been killed in recent years by Christians following such teachings? Oh, none you say? Then its a bit of a stupid point, isn't it?
Do European nations have the backbone to be honest, and the stomach to do what's necessary?
No - they don't. Not today anyway. But attitudes are hardening. I myself reached Peak Muslim a while ago. Others will get there sooner or later. Sooner if today's outrage is anything to go by. Let's hope the Donald is POTUS. We'll all get there sooner.
I've had lunch with two Tory activists friends who I campaigned with in last year's General Election.
They find themselves on different sides of the EURef, their observations
1) Leavers aren't being organised, there's no central organisation, they are having to do stuff on their own, and out of their own pocket (this is probably down to no official leave campaign)
2) Remain is much more organised, and slick (like the Tory campaign last year) that's no surprise, Andrew Cooper, Stephen Gilbert, Craig Elder etc are working for Remain, so the data and messaging is much more clear and focussed
3) However, Remain's vote is soft, Remain need no rain on June 23rd.
Leave has the passion, Remain has the organisation.
To continue the Nazi analogy, it's like this is 1937 except we have maybe 3 million Germans living in the UK, of which 200,000 might be Nazi sympathisers of some sort. and 5,000 violent Nazi murderers
Repeat for France, Germany, Denmark, Belgium.
Horrific, really.
You're wrong. But rather than have that discussion, I'd be interested to know what you think should be done about the problem as you see it.
Mr. Eagles, the Electoral Commission leaving it halfway into the campaign to decide on the official Leave campaign is not, perhaps, harmful to Remain.
Mr. Patrick, we'll see. As well as the malignant minority, there's a horde of those who don't realise the situation, as well as apologists and useful idiots.
Political consensus can frustrate the will of the people (cf the Westminster village consensus on foreign aid versus what people actually think).
Would love to stay and chat but must dash to catch my train. Let's hope Waterloo isn't going to detonate. At some point it will I suppose. Unless our craven politicians grow a pair.
They really are totally incompetent...The picture of the bombers that all the media is showing.
"The image was unintentionally leaked on to social media by Belgian police before the authorities later confirmed its authenticity, local media said."
Whats that in the wardrobe...oh nothing...right we have this image of the bombers we don't want the media to have, its ok I will DM it via twitter...oh woophs I sent it via a tweet, I am sure nobody will notice.
British soldiers should not be engaged in unwinnable foreign wars for US big business, as part of the Zionists' global "war on terror". F*** that and protect Britain.
We could, in theory, disengage totally and let the Muslims fester in their own hellhole. But only if we have 100% control of borders and immigration and keep them out with zero tolerance. Otherwise we are merely inviting a cancer to grow over there and then injecting said cancer into our own bloodstream. For example - what is now a 'reasonable' policy for our government to adopt for UK citizens who choose to go to Syria for some fun and games and a spot of beheading and then want to come home? Let them back? Let them back but monitor them? Shoot them while they're still in their black rags? Nothing at all? What should the policy be when a giant fucking bomb goes off in Oxford Street?
Islam is not compatible with western liberal democracy. At some point one or other of the two is going to have to break. Let it be them.
To continue the Nazi analogy, it's like this is 1937 except we have maybe 3 million Germans living in the UK, of which 200,000 might be Nazi sympathisers of some sort. and 5,000 violent Nazi murderers
Repeat for France, Germany, Denmark, Belgium.
Horrific, really.
We would also have a bunch of idiots leading the government saying national socialism deserves our full respect, and we must not judge all its followers by the extremists in charge. What we need to do is work with the reformers to encourage a moderate form of national socialism to win out. If they could only drop the attacks on Jews, there is plenty of moral teachings in the belief system. After all, the name stands for patriotism and equality.
Mr. L, the last book was written by someone on magic mushrooms. It's quite enjoyable, actually.
Yes it is strange. My favourite is probably Ecclesiastes. It is highly poetic. And the sermon on the mount. There is a lot of good philosophy there even for non believers. But there is a staggering percentage which has absolutely nothing to do with our society and nothing to teach us either.
One of my favourite bits, which I have been teaching to bankers for 3 years now, is this:-
"The man who can be trusted in little things can be trusted in great; the man who is dishonest in little things will be dishonest in great."
Amazing - and rather depressing - how few people recognise where it is from.
Even more depressing is how hard it is it to get across to some that the moral character of a person, what they do by default, what they do when no-one is looking, what their conscience tells them to do, is the single most important characteristic to look for in a person, beyond experience, skills or bullshit.
How about all the nearby countries that aren't engaged in military action in Muslim countries and that haven't been targets of terrorist attack.
Well done. You win the Award for the First Person to Blame the Victims and the Jews. Really, well done. One normally needs to go to the Guardian for this sort of stuff.
Mr. L, the last book was written by someone on magic mushrooms. It's quite enjoyable, actually.
Yes it is strange. My favourite is probably Ecclesiastes. It is highly poetic. And the sermon on the mount. There is a lot of good philosophy there even for non believers. But there is a staggering percentage which has absolutely nothing to do with our society and nothing to teach us either.
The Gospel of John is glorious, too. Especially in the King James Version:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The endless repetitions are hypnotic.
Yes there is some lovely language but a basis for living any time in the last 500 years? Not really.
Exciting end to the cricket. Pakistan came out like they were on fire in the power play but have slowly and painfully been strangled since. Still, one big over....
How about all the nearby countries that aren't engaged in military action in Muslim countries and that haven't been targets of terrorist attack.
Well done. You win the Award for the First Person to Blame the Victims and the Jews. Really, well done. One normally needs to go to the Guardian for this sort of stuff.
Personally I think we should send ISIS some of our young blonde women. If the Yazidis are anything to go by, thats what they want, right?
I've had lunch with two Tory activists friends who I campaigned with in last year's General Election.
They find themselves on different sides of the EURef, their observations
1) Leavers aren't being organised, there's no central organisation, they are having to do stuff on their own, and out of their own pocket (this is probably down to no official leave campaign)
2) Remain is much more organised, and slick (like the Tory campaign last year) that's no surprise, Andrew Cooper, Stephen Gilbert, Craig Elder etc are working for Remain, so the data and messaging is much more clear and focussed
3) However, Remain's vote is soft, Remain need no rain on June 23rd.
Leave has the passion, Remain has the organisation.
No.1 is 110% true to my *infinite* frustration.
Basically, whether or not Leave have a presence in Odiham or not is entirely down to me, my money and my pavement pounding.
Just like hundreds of others in hundreds of other communities across the Realm.
How about all the nearby countries that aren't engaged in military action in Muslim countries and that haven't been targets of terrorist attack.
Well done. You win the Award for the First Person to Blame the Victims and the Jews. Really, well done. One normally needs to go to the Guardian for this sort of stuff.
I patently obviously haven't done anything of the kind. In those two lines, you've shown that you're the bigot. That's so often the case when someone is habitual but inexpert with the nasty sarcasm too. Try to make your point courteously and directly if you think you've got one.
Mr. L, the last book was written by someone on magic mushrooms. It's quite enjoyable, actually.
Yes it is strange. My favourite is probably Ecclesiastes. It is highly poetic. And the sermon on the mount. There is a lot of good philosophy there even for non believers. But there is a staggering percentage which has absolutely nothing to do with our society and nothing to teach us either.
The Gospel of John is glorious, too. Especially in the King James Version:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The endless repetitions are hypnotic.
Yes there is some lovely language but a basis for living any time in the last 500 years? Not really.
Really? I think "Love thy neighbour as thyself" is just about all you need to know, in life.
What if you are a sado-masochist?
Bill and Ted's "Be excellent to each other" is much less ambiguous.
When a tragedy unfolds it is inappropriate and insensitive for people in most arenas to discuss the betting implications. If the BBC news reports today on the Brussels bombings mention that there has been a move in the betting towards LEAVE since the bombings, I will be surprised and disappointed.
But on a site called Political Betting it is to be expected that a major political event's ramifications and effects on betting markets are discussed. Betting on the consequences of political events is after all PB's raison d'etre.
On Thursday 12th May 1994 John Smith died unexpectedly. While the nation mourned I rang up William Hill to try and get a price and a bet on Tony Blair as next Labour leader. The Hills agent was shocked at my enquiry and testily informed me that the market had been suspended "out of respect". I enquired when the market might be re-opened and was advised somewhat curtly that I might try again on Monday. When the market did re-open Blair was odds-on.
Mr. L, the last book was written by someone on magic mushrooms. It's quite enjoyable, actually.
Yes it is strange. My favourite is probably Ecclesiastes. It is highly poetic. And the sermon on the mount. There is a lot of good philosophy there even for non believers. But there is a staggering percentage which has absolutely nothing to do with our society and nothing to teach us either.
The Gospel of John is glorious, too. Especially in the King James Version:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The endless repetitions are hypnotic.
Yes there is some lovely language but a basis for living any time in the last 500 years? Not really.
I disagree. Much may not be relevant. But "do as you would be done by" seems like a pretty good prescription. As is "Honour your father and mother" and "Not lying" and "Not stealing". The story of the Good Samaritan seems as good a description as I have ever seen of why we have a duty to help others. Jesus's railings against the Pharisees have a lot of modern resonance.
And there is plenty more - even if one is not a believer.
Mr. L, the last book was written by someone on magic mushrooms. It's quite enjoyable, actually.
Yes it is strange. My favourite is probably Ecclesiastes. It is highly poetic. And the sermon on the mount. There is a lot of good philosophy there even for non believers. But there is a staggering percentage which has absolutely nothing to do with our society and nothing to teach us either.
One of my favourite bits, which I have been teaching to bankers for 3 years now, is this:-
"The man who can be trusted in little things can be trusted in great; the man who is dishonest in little things will be dishonest in great."
Amazing - and rather depressing - how few people recognise where it is from.
Even more depressing is how hard it is it to get across to some that the moral character of a person, what they do by default, what they do when no-one is looking, what their conscience tells them to do, is the single most important characteristic to look for in a person, beyond experience, skills or bullshit.
Certainly one of the parables, not sure what one. But I agree. People who think it is ok to cheat on their expenses should not be trusted with other people's money.
Mr. L, the last book was written by someone on magic mushrooms. It's quite enjoyable, actually.
Yes it is strange. My favourite is probably Ecclesiastes. It is highly poetic. And the sermon on the mount. There is a lot of good philosophy there even for non believers. But there is a staggering percentage which has absolutely nothing to do with our society and nothing to teach us either.
The Gospel of John is glorious, too. Especially in the King James Version:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The endless repetitions are hypnotic.
Yes there is some lovely language but a basis for living any time in the last 500 years? Not really.
Really? I think "Love thy neighbour as thyself" is just about all you need to know, in life.
That is the second commandment in Jesus's summary of the law though.
Apologists first thought ... it may not be Muslims, then comes they're not proper Muslims, then it's the Wests fault for intervening/not intervening, then let's worry more about the backlash, and finally .. they're only doing what everybody/every other group does - nothing abnormal at all.
We seem to be speeding through these a little faster today.
By the time the next outrage occurs, we can whip through these within the first hour.
Some of these have a little substance. Most Muslims don't agree with IS, they are an extremist sect, but if about 20% have some degree of sympathy and their aim is Sharia law or else across the whole world, false equivalences are stupid .
When a hit squad of seventy-year-old Catholic nuns bomb an airport, then I'll worry.
How about all the nearby countries that aren't engaged in military action in Muslim countries and that haven't been targets of terrorist attack.
Well done. You win the Award for the First Person to Blame the Victims and the Jews. Really, well done. One normally needs to go to the Guardian for this sort of stuff.
I patently obviously haven't done anything of the kind. In those two lines, you've shown that you're the bigot. That's so often the case when someone is habitual but inexpert with the nasty sarcasm too. Try to make your point courteously and directly if you think you've got one.
May I suggest that you reread your own posts at 4:35 pm and 4:57 pm.
Apologists first thought ... it may not be Muslims, then comes they're not proper Muslims, then it's the Wests fault for intervening/not intervening, then let's worry more about the backlash, and finally .. they're only doing what everybody/every other group does. - nothing abnormal at all.
We seem to be speeding through these a little faster today.
By the time the next outrage occurs, we can whip through these within the first hour.
Some of these have a little substance. Most Muslims don't agree with IS, they are an extremist sect, but if about 20% have some degree of sympathy and their aim is Sharia law or else across the whole world, false equivalences are stupid .
When a hit squad of seventy-year-old Catholic nuns bomb an airport, then I'll worry.
Sky already had an American apologist academic on who went through all the gears...
A while back I read all the bible, then started the Koran. I only got halfway through the latter, as I found the Koran (and especially the accompanying Hadith) really unsettling for several reasons.
Just the concept of Isnad (the chain of people through which each individual hadith has been passed down) is unsettling. It all reinforces the idea that this is the real, unaltered word.
The bible has nothing like it.
Doesn't the Bible short circuit this by saying it is the innerant word of God and any alterations will bring down plague of famine or other appropriate disaster
Sort of off topic - in my day job I had a question pending with the European Commission. I today received a detailed, helpful reply by email, making no reference to the turmoil presumably going on outside. Not for the first time, I'm impressed by the professionalism of civil servants, an otherwise much-maligned species.
Mr. L, the last book was written by someone on magic mushrooms. It's quite enjoyable, actually.
Yes it is strange. My favourite is probably Ecclesiastes. It is highly poetic. And the sermon on the mount. There is a lot of good philosophy there even for non believers. But there is a staggering percentage which has absolutely nothing to do with our society and nothing to teach us either.
The Gospel of John is glorious, too. Especially in the King James Version:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The endless repetitions are hypnotic.
Yes there is some lovely language but a basis for living any time in the last 500 years? Not really.
I disagree. Much may not be relevant. But "do as you would be done by" seems like a pretty good prescription. As is "Honour your father and mother" and "Not lying" and "Not stealing". The story of the Good Samaritan seems as good a description as I have ever seen of why we have a duty to help others. Jesus's railings against the Pharisees have a lot of modern resonance.
And there is plenty more - even if one is not a believer.
In the bible fathers had the power of life and death over their children as well as the right to sell them into slavery. I wouldn't want that power, not even on a bad day. Honour your father and mother has a rather different context when that kind of penalty is on the table.
As I said there are good bits, particularly in the sermon on the mount, which are genuinely thought provoking. But...
A while back I read all the bible, then started the Koran. I only got halfway through the latter, as I found the Koran (and especially the accompanying Hadith) really unsettling for several reasons.
Just the concept of Isnad (the chain of people through which each individual hadith has been passed down) is unsettling. It all reinforces the idea that this is the real, unaltered word.
The bible has nothing like it.
Doesn't the Bible short circuit this by saying it is the innerant word of God and any alterations will bring down plague of famine or other appropriate disaster
Birmingham office girls referendum anecdotage. An apolitical type very persuaded by Obama's intervention. Paraphrasing "if he says that it is best for us to stay in the EU then it must be" Depressing
Brussels has come at a useful time for The Tories.
Suddenly the Great Meltdown seems small beer. Cameron is *lucky*
Yes yes, tasteless, etc...
The Paris attacks also came at a bit of a sticky time for Cameron, what with the Cambridge council letter eviscerating him for getting the sums wrong on the cumulative level of cuts.
Islamic extremism did not start in 2003. It started decades beforehand. It has its roots in Islam - it may not define Islam but it has its roots in it - and has been developed by Islamist ideologues such as Hassan-al-Banna and Sayyid Qutb, the former from the 1920s and the latter in the 1950s. The ideological roots of IS come from many sources but it is Western egoism and historical illiteracy to think that it is our fault that such an ideology has developed in the Islamic world.
As if Muslims were incapable of behaving save as forced by others.
Muslims are not children. They are as capable of making moral choices as anyone else. They are as capable of choosing good or evil. They should not be excused from the choices that they make. And, sadly, some of them have chosen evil. As we see in Brussels today - and have seen here and in Madrid and Paris and Copenhagen and Tunisia and Egypt and in countless places in the Middle East.
Let's reserve our pity for the victims, the many victims, of these evil choices. And stop making the victims guilty of or responsible for what their murderers chose to do.
I would say it started even earlier than that. Look at the Muslim invasions of India and the same "convert or die" tactics used.
Mohammed himself authorised his followers to kill poets that criticised him. He endorsed taking sex slaves from the women of conquered tribes. He backed vicious punishments for theft and adultery. He had sex with a child of nine. In its origin it is a terrible system of beliefs. Perhaps you can try to have a moderate Islam, but it would be similar to developing moderate fascism. There will always be the temptation to shift to the historic hardline form.
I read on a website recently that in terms of global population at the time, the greatest death toll of humanity was caused by the Muslim conquest of Arabia, Africa and Europe from 620-750AD.
Bigger than WW1, WW2, anything in China, etc
I'd find the link but I'm too depressed by stuff (not Brussels). Hah.
Wasn't the introduction of European diseases into the Americas worse? Possibly 10 million or so killed within a couple of generations - at a time the global population was ~500m.
The introduction of European diseases was accidental and probably killed Europeans in similar percentages. The Muslim death tolls by conquests were planned.
Mr. L, the last book was written by someone on magic mushrooms. It's quite enjoyable, actually.
Yes it is strange. My favourite is probably Ecclesiastes. It is highly poetic. And the sermon on the mount. There is a lot of good philosophy there even for non believers. But there is a staggering percentage which has absolutely nothing to do with our society and nothing to teach us either.
The Gospel of John is glorious, too. Especially in the King James Version:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The endless repetitions are hypnotic.
Yes there is some lovely language but a basis for living any time in the last 500 years? Not really.
Really? I think "Love thy neighbour as thyself" is just about all you need to know, in life.
That is the second commandment in Jesus's summary of the law though.
It's originally a verse from the Old Testament however that Jesus is repeating. Leviticus 19 to be exact.
A while back I read all the bible, then started the Koran. I only got halfway through the latter, as I found the Koran (and especially the accompanying Hadith) really unsettling for several reasons.
Just the concept of Isnad (the chain of people through which each individual hadith has been passed down) is unsettling. It all reinforces the idea that this is the real, unaltered word.
The bible has nothing like it.
Doesn't the Bible short circuit this by saying it is the innerant word of God and any alterations will bring down plague of famine or other appropriate disaster
No.
Is the very end ognreelayions referring to just itself and not the whole bible? I feel a bit dumb now.
Mr. L, the last book was written by someone on magic mushrooms. It's quite enjoyable, actually.
Yes it is strange. My favourite is probably Ecclesiastes. It is highly poetic. And the sermon on the mount. There is a lot of good philosophy there even for non believers. But there is a staggering percentage which has absolutely nothing to do with our society and nothing to teach us either.
One of my favourite bits, which I have been teaching to bankers for 3 years now, is this:-
"The man who can be trusted in little things can be trusted in great; the man who is dishonest in little things will be dishonest in great."
Amazing - and rather depressing - how few people recognise where it is from.
Even more depressing is how hard it is it to get across to some that the moral character of a person, what they do by default, what they do when no-one is looking, what their conscience tells them to do, is the single most important characteristic to look for in a person, beyond experience, skills or bullshit.
Luke, presumably, although I always think it should be Matthew given your line of work.
Well they should've worked out long spells in power would build up the flak - e.g. the travails of the ambulance service here have been a running sore and paraded every month when the stats come out, and yes the odd seat at the GE might've been lost because of it (Gower is the most marginal seat in the UK and was won by the Tories). That said as the vast majority of power resides in London there's a lot of chance of dodging some of it by blaming "Westminster" (reasonably enough).
It's the lack of real alternative that's worrying. Plaid are hopeless and a pale shadow of the SNP machine from what I can see (Wood v Sturgeon- 'nuff said!), the Libs too sparse, and the Tories a generation away at least from making any real go of it, despite recent progress. UKIP are the latest in the mix and though they will nick seats here and there on the list, and do "relatively well" up the Valleys I seriously doubt a major major game changing breakthrough. As long as Labour can get people to traipse out and vote for the proverbial donkey with a red rosette in the Rhondda, Caerphilly, P Talbot, Pontypool and the like, as they have done for over a hundred years the hegemony will be hard to break unless one party can hoover up pretty much the rest of Wales. That's not easy, given a rural centre, a Welsh speaking West, a "retiree N Coast" and a mixed economy M4 corridor in the far south. It's all a bit disparate to join together.
I don't disagree that Labour should have anticipated being forced to 'carry the can' in Wales for policy areas such as Health and Education - despite funding being dependent on Westminster. My suspicion is that control of the Assembly cost Labour both seats lost in 2015 - Gower and Vale of Clwyd - and prevented them winning seats such as Cardiff North. The Vale of Glamorgan and both Pembrokeshire seats would have been a fair bit closer too had there been no devolved Assembly. I have not lived in Wales for 40 years - but would love to see the Assembly abolished. Pity the Tories did not offer another Referendum on it - particularly as the vote in 1997 was just 50.3% to 49.7%.
When a tragedy unfolds it is inappropriate and insensitive for people in most arenas to discuss the betting implications. If the BBC news reports today on the Brussels bombings mention that there has been a move in the betting towards LEAVE since the bombings, I will be surprised and disappointed.
But on a site called Political Betting it is to be expected that a major political event's ramifications and effects on betting markets are discussed. Betting on the consequences of political events is after all PB's raison d'etre.
On Thursday 12th May 1994 John Smith died unexpectedly. While the nation mourned I rang up William Hill to try and get a price and a bet on Tony Blair as next Labour leader. The Hills agent was shocked at my enquiry and testily informed me that the market had been suspended "out of respect". I enquired when the market might be re-opened and was advised somewhat curtly that I might try again on Monday. When the market did re-open Blair was odds-on.
It'd have been nicer if you'd waited for the body to get cold...
A while back I read all the bible, then started the Koran. I only got halfway through the latter, as I found the Koran (and especially the accompanying Hadith) really unsettling for several reasons.
Just the concept of Isnad (the chain of people through which each individual hadith has been passed down) is unsettling. It all reinforces the idea that this is the real, unaltered word.
The bible has nothing like it.
Doesn't the Bible short circuit this by saying it is the innerant word of God and any alterations will bring down plague of famine or other appropriate disaster
I can't remember that; someone on here's bound to know. But it would probably be contradicted by other sections in the bible. Besides, the bible has been translated so many times from the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, even leaving out the various apocrypha and Gnostic gospels. The there's the work of the ?Council of Carthage? that decided which books would be in the bible.
Something the Koran gets around by saying that the Koran must be read in Arabic. And as a Muslim friend once told me, I had read *none* of the Koran as I read it in English ...
That sort of stricture is not restricted to Islam historically. It can only be seen as a form of population control - only we (the ones who understand the language) know the word of the lord.
Comments
I don't think they did that intentionally.
The only difference seems to be Trump recent weird NATO comments. Which even by Trump standard was utterly bonkers.
Brabant Flanders’ regional governor has confirmed that a third bomb was found at the airport and destroyed by security services, Reuters reported.
Either way, I think I've settled now in the "Reluctant Remainers" camp. I detest the EU as much as I ever have if not more, but fear the uncertainty and the inevitable major downsides (and more minor inconveniences) leaving would cause, whatever the potential longer term benefits. Let's stay in, keep arguing against things we don't like, have a modicum of a say over legislation rather than having to swallow it come what may, and have a proper crack at renegotiating our position when we get a PM with more balls or when the EU inevitably fractures or collapses in due course...
Islam/Muslims are more prone to fundamentalism than Christianity/Christians. It's a longer journey from a Liberal or Conservative [in religious senses] to extremism than it is from Fundamentalist or Literalist perspectives (although it can happen, as we've seen particularly with converts).
Stop the war. Bring British soldiers home. Leave NATO. Stop military and all other interference in Muslim countries. Please, no-one tell me that I am disrespecting the dead by saying that.
British soldiers should be protecting Britain. They should be training security guys and other staff at shopping centres, transport hubs, etc., many of whom haven't got a clue. If you've ever tried to report suspicious behaviour to them, you'll be able to confirm that.
British soldiers should not be engaged in unwinnable foreign wars for US big business, as part of the Zionists' global "war on terror". F*** that and protect Britain.
The plain fact is that whether you talk about Sunnis or Shias or Wahabis or those who follow the Muslim Brotherhood or support Hamas or Al Qaeda or IS or Al Nusra or any of the other groups/groupuscules, whether supported or financed by states or not, at their base is an interpretation of Islam. Whether it is a wrong interpretation or not who knows. But enough people do follow it and act on it, both in the Middle East and in Muslim communities in Europe, to make the presence of Muslim communities, let alone their increase, in Europe a problem.
No amount of whistling in the wind and hoping for the best and saying that it is not the correct interpretation and that most Muslims don't subscribe to this version will wish this unpalatable fact away.
And one more unpalatable fact which must be faced up to is this (and I quote from an unnamed German who made this point ca. 2 years ago):-
"We are told again and again by ‘experts’ and ‘talking heads’ that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.
The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the ’silent majority,’ is cowed and extraneous.
Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts–the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Most of the general public know this, all across the world, but our politicians are in denial and offer only appeasement.
Like the silent Muslims, we remain silent and acquiescent, while our freedoms gradually disappear."
Just the concept of Isnad (the chain of people through which each individual hadith has been passed down) is unsettling. It all reinforces the idea that this is the real, unaltered word.
The bible has nothing like it.
You really do a very good impression of an invertebrate, Bob, year in, year out. My Lancashire relatives are made of flintier stuff.
Islam is not compatible with western liberal democracy. At some point one or other of the two is going to have to break. Let it be them.
Well they should've worked out long spells in power would build up the flak - e.g. the travails of the ambulance service here have been a running sore and paraded every month when the stats come out, and yes the odd seat at the GE might've been lost because of it (Gower is the most marginal seat in the UK and was won by the Tories). That said as the vast majority of power resides in London there's a lot of chance of dodging some of it by blaming "Westminster" (reasonably enough).
It's the lack of real alternative that's worrying. Plaid are hopeless and a pale shadow of the SNP machine from what I can see (Wood v Sturgeon- 'nuff said!), the Libs too sparse, and the Tories a generation away at least from making any real go of it, despite recent progress. UKIP are the latest in the mix and though they will nick seats here and there on the list, and do "relatively well" up the Valleys I seriously doubt a major major game changing breakthrough. As long as Labour can get people to traipse out and vote for the proverbial donkey with a red rosette in the Rhondda, Caerphilly, P Talbot, Pontypool and the like, as they have done for over a hundred years the hegemony will be hard to break unless one party can hoover up pretty much the rest of Wales. That's not easy, given a rural centre, a Welsh speaking West, a "retiree N Coast" and a mixed economy M4 corridor in the far south. It's all a bit disparate to join together.
There is a time for mourning and grieving.
And there is also a time for getting absolutely furious at those who bear responsibility for what has happened.
I am not going to change my vote based on what happened in Brussels. If anything, I feel closer to the Belgians as I did to the French after Bataclan. This could happen to anyone of us - and probably will. We should unite and fight back. For my money, there is too little uniting and pointless sympathy gestures which seem too much about how we look than real effective sympathy and too little fighting back at the bastards and those who sustain them.
But that is for another day.
Mr. Patrick, Islam's been around for about 1,400 years and has over a billion followers. Western democracy is a few centuries old (and nearly fell, in Europe, less than a hundred years ago).
Do European nations have the backbone to be honest, and the stomach to do what's necessary?
Just look at the reaction to the migrant crisis. The EU 'dissuaded' people from coming by rescuing them, taking them to the place the EU said they shouldn't go, permitting free movement, providing food, shelter and medical care.
Worked a treat, did it not?
Edited extra bit: just realised the ambiguity could mean my post could be wildly misinterpreted.
I'm not saying Islam = extremism. I am saying that the small but virulent extremist branch of Islam needs not so much pruning as hacked off, thrown in the fire, and the ashes shot into the heart of the sun.
A full-blown culture war (West versus Middle East or Christian versus Islam) would be a catastrophe.
Edited extra bit 2: we need to be firmer standing up for hard-won freedoms, most especially freedom of speech. Politicians and the media are letting us down badly.
That said, it is undeniable that if enemy combatants are crossing Belgium's border to carry out terror attacks in Brussels, then clearly Belgian people should be pushing for better border controls.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#Contemporary
And you must have heard of the Lord's Resistance Army:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army
I've had lunch with two Tory activists friends who I campaigned with in last year's General Election.
They find themselves on different sides of the EURef, their observations
1) Leavers aren't being organised, there's no central organisation, they are having to do stuff on their own, and out of their own pocket (this is probably down to no official leave campaign)
2) Remain is much more organised, and slick (like the Tory campaign last year) that's no surprise, Andrew Cooper, Stephen Gilbert, Craig Elder etc are working for Remain, so the data and messaging is much more clear and focussed
3) However, Remain's vote is soft, Remain need no rain on June 23rd.
Leave has the passion, Remain has the organisation.
Mr. Patrick, we'll see. As well as the malignant minority, there's a horde of those who don't realise the situation, as well as apologists and useful idiots.
Political consensus can frustrate the will of the people (cf the Westminster village consensus on foreign aid versus what people actually think).
"The image was unintentionally leaked on to social media by Belgian police before the authorities later confirmed its authenticity, local media said."
Whats that in the wardrobe...oh nothing...right we have this image of the bombers we don't want the media to have, its ok I will DM it via twitter...oh woophs I sent it via a tweet, I am sure nobody will notice.
"The man who can be trusted in little things can be trusted in great; the man who is dishonest in little things will be dishonest in great."
Amazing - and rather depressing - how few people recognise where it is from.
Even more depressing is how hard it is it to get across to some that the moral character of a person, what they do by default, what they do when no-one is looking, what their conscience tells them to do, is the single most important characteristic to look for in a person, beyond experience, skills or bullshit.
She is on 59 and 71 in the two polls there.
NATO’s headquarters in Mons, about 40 miles (65 km) southwest of Brussels, has been put on high alert.
Basically, whether or not Leave have a presence in Odiham or not is entirely down to me, my money and my pavement pounding.
Just like hundreds of others in hundreds of other communities across the Realm.
Bill and Ted's "Be excellent to each other" is much less ambiguous.
But on a site called Political Betting it is to be expected that a major political event's ramifications and effects on betting markets are discussed. Betting on the consequences of political events is after all PB's raison d'etre.
On Thursday 12th May 1994 John Smith died unexpectedly. While the nation mourned I rang up William Hill to try and get a price and a bet on Tony Blair as next Labour leader. The Hills agent was shocked at my enquiry and testily informed me that the market had been suspended "out of respect". I enquired when the market might be re-opened and was advised somewhat curtly that I might try again on Monday. When the market did re-open Blair was odds-on.
And there is plenty more - even if one is not a believer.
Apologists first thought ... it may not be Muslims, then comes they're not proper Muslims, then it's the Wests fault for intervening/not intervening, then let's worry more about the backlash, and finally .. they're only doing what everybody/every other group does - nothing abnormal at all.
We seem to be speeding through these a little faster today.
By the time the next outrage occurs, we can whip through these within the first hour.
Some of these have a little substance. Most Muslims don't agree with IS, they are an extremist sect, but if about 20% have some degree of sympathy and their aim is Sharia law or else across the whole world, false equivalences are stupid .
When a hit squad of seventy-year-old Catholic nuns bomb an airport, then I'll worry.
But what if you don't mind, say, people standing unusually close to you?
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
As I said there are good bits, particularly in the sermon on the mount, which are genuinely thought provoking. But...
The Muslim death tolls by conquests were planned.
It's originally a verse from the Old Testament however that Jesus is repeating. Leviticus 19 to be exact.
Something the Koran gets around by saying that the Koran must be read in Arabic. And as a Muslim friend once told me, I had read *none* of the Koran as I read it in English ...
That sort of stricture is not restricted to Islam historically. It can only be seen as a form of population control - only we (the ones who understand the language) know the word of the lord.
BELIEVE in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!