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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    Its ok everybody...we have no need to worry...Twitter has a hashtag for this and Instagram a picture to share...that will show them...
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,001

    RE: Wales and the Yougov poll
    With Labour polling of 31%, it is so low on, I assume, unadjusted weightings post GE2015, there is room for a further drop of circa 2% within these numbers. There must be a tipping point below which Labour lose sheds loads of seats. Does any one have an idea where that is?

    The Tories and laid are still averaging 10 points behind though. Unlike in Scotland there isn't a single alternative that people will move towards.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited March 2016

    taffys said:

    We can do something about apologists here. We can vote them out. Trouble is, we own Belgium's policy too, because Belgians can come here freely.

    In what conceivable world will Belgians not be able to come here freely, as indeed they mostly have throughout history?

    Are you Leavers completely mad?
    I imagine you could very well say the same about Germans. Free access throughout history.

    And yet, when the time came, we stopped them coming to protect ourselves.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    World Cup-winning captain and coach Franz Beckenbauer is one of six men being investigated for their part in Germany's 2006 World Cup bid.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    watford30 said:

    No, only some.

    Unless you think they're all the same, in which case it would be wholly appropriate to conclude that all Remainers want full integration within the EU.

    You are right - only some.
  • AndrewDAndrewD Posts: 27

    taffys said:

    We can do something about apologists here. We can vote them out. Trouble is, we own Belgium's policy too, because Belgians can come here freely.

    In what conceivable world will Belgians not be able to come here freely, as indeed they mostly have throughout history?

    Are you Leavers completely mad?
    In a world where we realise Molenbeek is a jihadist safehaven and we realise we need to have proper visa checks.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    edited March 2016
    On topic

    Often those messages which we find personally vulgar are the most effective in an electoral campaign..............
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited March 2016
    It was mentioned on here yesterday about misuse of medications is the new drug cheating...and today...

    Australian Browne stopped defending champion Ruslan Chagaev to win the title in Russia earlier this month. The 36-year-old delivered a positive sample for clenbuterol after the fight, his management company have revealed.

    Clenbuterol is a powerful drug used to treat asthma, but it can also help build up lean muscle mass and burn off fat.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/35871375
  • AndrewDAndrewD Posts: 27

    The pitfalls of trying to point score, when denouncing point scoring

    Timmy Tour
    Same Alan Johnson said in aftermath of Paris attacks that leaving EU would raise risk of us having similar attacks https://t.co/LdqpmiU4li

    Alan Johnson was part of the wretched government that opened Britain's doors to all and sundry. He is directly responsible for increasing the terrorist risk in the UK, and in any sane world he should be too embarrassed to go out in public.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited March 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    On topic

    Often those messages which we find personally vulgar are the most effective in an electoral campaign..............

    SIndy campaign with the baby...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,249

    Its ok everybody...we have no need to worry...Twitter has a hashtag for this and Instagram a picture to share...that will show them...

    Call me Mr Cynical but the evidence that previous hashtags have had a major effect on the morale, materiel or effectiveness of Da'esh is....slight.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    By my calculations , higher rate tax payers in Scotland will be £300+ a year worse off than if they lived over the border.

    Still those gaelic road signs don't paint themselves.

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Opinium
    #Immigration is the most important issue facing the UK, followed by #NHS & #Brexit https://t.co/Zykl1bPlQZ https://t.co/qW3Wsh0BGV
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    World Cup-winning captain and coach Franz Beckenbauer is one of six men being investigated for their part in Germany's 2006 World Cup bid.

    Are we planning to take it off them?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    AndrewD said:

    taffys said:

    We can do something about apologists here. We can vote them out. Trouble is, we own Belgium's policy too, because Belgians can come here freely.

    In what conceivable world will Belgians not be able to come here freely, as indeed they mostly have throughout history?

    Are you Leavers completely mad?
    In a world where we realise Molenbeek is a jihadist safehaven and we realise we need to have proper visa checks.
    In 1939, we should have continued to allow all Germans free access to Britain.

    After all, they've been coming pretty much forever!!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Dead cat? If so, presumably one conceived before this morning's outrages.

    Tom Newton Dunn
    #Budget debate now getting very nasty. Tom Tugendhat shouts at McDonnell: "He stands with bombers who murdered my friends in N Ireland".

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    AV campaign with incubators, refugees with dead infant...

    Pulpstar said:

    On topic

    Often those messages which we find personally vulgar are the most effective in an electoral campaign..............

    SIndy campaign with the baby...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,249

    It was mentioned on here yesterday about misuse of medications is the new drug cheating...and today...

    Australian Browne stopped defending champion Ruslan Chagaev to win the title in Russia earlier this month. The 36-year-old delivered a positive sample for clenbuterol after the fight, his management company have revealed.

    Clenbuterol is a powerful drug used to treat asthma, but it can also help build up lean muscle mass and burn off fat.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/35871375

    It does seem a rather good point that as a heavyweight boxer without a weight limit to beat the drug seems a somewhat odd choice. But there is a whole world of pharma out there that is only known to the cheats.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    Dead cat? If so, presumably one conceived before this morning's outrages.

    Tom Newton Dunn
    #Budget debate now getting very nasty. Tom Tugendhat shouts at McDonnell: "He stands with bombers who murdered my friends in N Ireland".

    No, something Tom Tugendhat (unsurprisingly, given his background) feels passionately about.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Belgian flag flying over Downing St.

    No change there then...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited March 2016
    DavidL said:

    It was mentioned on here yesterday about misuse of medications is the new drug cheating...and today...

    Australian Browne stopped defending champion Ruslan Chagaev to win the title in Russia earlier this month. The 36-year-old delivered a positive sample for clenbuterol after the fight, his management company have revealed.

    Clenbuterol is a powerful drug used to treat asthma, but it can also help build up lean muscle mass and burn off fat.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/35871375

    It does seem a rather good point that as a heavyweight boxer without a weight limit to beat the drug seems a somewhat odd choice. But there is a whole world of pharma out there that is only known to the cheats.
    I would think assistance in building lean muscle mass would be of interest to anybody. It has been widely misused for a long period of time.

    The picture of this guy in fights from a year or so ago and now is like one of those before and after shots for the latest fitness work out. He used to be a right fat lad to put it mildly.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Eiffel Tower projection of Belgian flag later, all pointless signalling without real action.
    RodCrosby said:

    Belgian flag flying over Downing St.

    No change there then...

  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    I believe that there are quite a lot of muslims from Brussels living in Manchester now. Interesting to see if they poll differently on muslim issues.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Update 20 killed at Metro, 117 injured, dozen or more severely
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,347
    RodCrosby said:

    Belgian flag flying over Downing St.

    No change there then...

    Stupid and pointless virtue signalling.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,249

    DavidL said:

    It was mentioned on here yesterday about misuse of medications is the new drug cheating...and today...

    Australian Browne stopped defending champion Ruslan Chagaev to win the title in Russia earlier this month. The 36-year-old delivered a positive sample for clenbuterol after the fight, his management company have revealed.

    Clenbuterol is a powerful drug used to treat asthma, but it can also help build up lean muscle mass and burn off fat.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/35871375

    It does seem a rather good point that as a heavyweight boxer without a weight limit to beat the drug seems a somewhat odd choice. But there is a whole world of pharma out there that is only known to the cheats.
    I would think assistance in building lean muscle mass would be of interest to anybody.
    Maybe. I don't know enough about it. But more obviously for those who need to replace body fat with muscle than those simply looking to bulk up I would have thought. If it is an industrial quantity to get the benefit then fair enough but if it is a trace one might look at potential contamination.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Potentially in poor taste, but sadly relevant to betting and politics

    @theobertram: According to ComRes, Sadiq trails Zac by 7 pts on "keeping London safe from terrorist attacks" https://t.co/r7SnFTiw6j
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    DavidL said:

    It was mentioned on here yesterday about misuse of medications is the new drug cheating...and today...

    Australian Browne stopped defending champion Ruslan Chagaev to win the title in Russia earlier this month. The 36-year-old delivered a positive sample for clenbuterol after the fight, his management company have revealed.

    Clenbuterol is a powerful drug used to treat asthma, but it can also help build up lean muscle mass and burn off fat.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/35871375

    It does seem a rather good point that as a heavyweight boxer without a weight limit to beat the drug seems a somewhat odd choice. But there is a whole world of pharma out there that is only known to the cheats.
    It works well even if you don't have to hit a weight limit, fat only slows you down - it's muscle you need !
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    Has any politician articulated how long the people of Europe are going to have put up with this new terror threat or outlined any strategy which may stop it? If not, why not?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    RodCrosby said:

    Belgian flag flying over Downing St.

    No change there then...

    LOL

    Also, I owe you an apology for misattributing a The Donald quote to you the other day.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Dead cat? If so, presumably one conceived before this morning's outrages.

    Tom Newton Dunn
    #Budget debate now getting very nasty. Tom Tugendhat shouts at McDonnell: "He stands with bombers who murdered my friends in N Ireland".

    No, something Tom Tugendhat (unsurprisingly, given his background) feels passionately about.
    Does he shout it every time he sees McDonnell or only when the Chief Whip is trying to distract attention from Osborne's woes?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Ken Clarke expressing some reservations about Osborne's budget.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,249
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    It was mentioned on here yesterday about misuse of medications is the new drug cheating...and today...

    Australian Browne stopped defending champion Ruslan Chagaev to win the title in Russia earlier this month. The 36-year-old delivered a positive sample for clenbuterol after the fight, his management company have revealed.

    Clenbuterol is a powerful drug used to treat asthma, but it can also help build up lean muscle mass and burn off fat.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/35871375

    It does seem a rather good point that as a heavyweight boxer without a weight limit to beat the drug seems a somewhat odd choice. But there is a whole world of pharma out there that is only known to the cheats.
    It works well even if you don't have to hit a weight limit, fat only slows you down - it's muscle you need !
    As I say IANAE but fat around your internal organs can provide important insulation and protection, especially is someone is hitting you.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,347
    Scott_P said:

    Potentially in poor taste, but sadly relevant to betting and politics

    @theobertram: According to ComRes, Sadiq trails Zac by 7 pts on "keeping London safe from terrorist attacks" https://t.co/r7SnFTiw6j

    As a Zac campaigner I didn't want to point this out, but with the polls already narrowing the race is on. The "Corbyn's man" attack is really going to come into play now, I expect the next literature to include Corbyn's views on shoot to kill and having a cup of tea with ISIS.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Bomb was round the corner from the European Commission.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    One nail bomb found at airport, 14 dead Sky
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    Potentially in poor taste, but sadly relevant to betting and politics

    @theobertram: According to ComRes, Sadiq trails Zac by 7 pts on "keeping London safe from terrorist attacks" https://t.co/r7SnFTiw6j

    Very very relevant.

    Would you really want a known associate running your capital city ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited March 2016
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    It was mentioned on here yesterday about misuse of medications is the new drug cheating...and today...

    Australian Browne stopped defending champion Ruslan Chagaev to win the title in Russia earlier this month. The 36-year-old delivered a positive sample for clenbuterol after the fight, his management company have revealed.

    Clenbuterol is a powerful drug used to treat asthma, but it can also help build up lean muscle mass and burn off fat.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/35871375

    It does seem a rather good point that as a heavyweight boxer without a weight limit to beat the drug seems a somewhat odd choice. But there is a whole world of pharma out there that is only known to the cheats.
    I would think assistance in building lean muscle mass would be of interest to anybody.
    Maybe. I don't know enough about it. But more obviously for those who need to replace body fat with muscle than those simply looking to bulk up I would have thought. If it is an industrial quantity to get the benefit then fair enough but if it is a trace one might look at potential contamination.
    I suggest you look at the "before" and "after" shots. Not saying it proves guilt, but he certainly changed his body a lot. He was all wibble wobble before...with the nickname "big daddy"...now is far more stripped down.
  • shiney2shiney2 Posts: 672
    RodCrosby said:

    Belgian flag flying over Downing St.

    No change there then...


    Naughty.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    Potentially in poor taste, but sadly relevant to betting and politics

    @theobertram: According to ComRes, Sadiq trails Zac by 7 pts on "keeping London safe from terrorist attacks" https://t.co/r7SnFTiw6j

    Very very relevant.

    Would you really want a known associate running your capital city ?
    Sadiq at 1.32 on Betfair
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_P said:

    Potentially in poor taste, but sadly relevant to betting and politics

    @theobertram: According to ComRes, Sadiq trails Zac by 7 pts on "keeping London safe from terrorist attacks" https://t.co/r7SnFTiw6j

    As a Zac campaigner I didn't want to point this out, but with the polls already narrowing the race is on. The "Corbyn's man" attack is really going to come into play now, I expect the next literature to include Corbyn's views on shoot to kill and having a cup of tea with ISIS.
    Do people really think the Mayor actually has any powers over "keeping Londoners safe" (or indeed powers over anything apart from transport or housing)?
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    SeanT said:

    I wonder how many more outrages it will take before there is a European Guantanamo.

    In Wales perhaps?
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'I wonder how many more outrages it will take before there is a European Guantanamo.'

    I'm sure it won't be long before the EU tries to use these events to push forward its plans for an EU-wide 'border' force, an EU army, deeper intrusion into people's privacy and of course a single criminal justice system (in which the future of jury trials would be at serious risk).

    That won't be 'tasteless' of course.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Clarke advocating taxing the Winter Fuel Payment.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    TOPPING said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Belgian flag flying over Downing St.

    No change there then...

    LOL

    Also, I owe you an apology for misattributing a The Donald quote to you the other day.
    That's nice of you. Cheers!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,756

    IIRC from the full article, Plaid are 1% ahead of Tories on list seats.

    Worth reading the entrails.

    RE: Wales and the Yougov poll
    With Labour polling of 31%, it is so low on, I assume, unadjusted weightings post GE2015, there is room for a further drop of circa 2% within these numbers. There must be a tipping point below which Labour lose sheds loads of seats. Does any one have an idea where that is?

    Wales has been very gradually shifting against Labour, relative to the rest of the country, since 1970. There was a shift back to Labour in 1987, and 1992, probably due to having a Welsh leader, but then the pro-Conservative shift resumed, in relative terms. 11 Welsh seats is a very strong Conservative result, by historical standards. They beat that in 1983, with 14 seats, but that was when the party led by 16% nationally.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,249

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    It was mentioned on here yesterday about misuse of medications is the new drug cheating...and today...

    Australian Browne stopped defending champion Ruslan Chagaev to win the title in Russia earlier this month. The 36-year-old delivered a positive sample for clenbuterol after the fight, his management company have revealed.

    Clenbuterol is a powerful drug used to treat asthma, but it can also help build up lean muscle mass and burn off fat.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/35871375

    It does seem a rather good point that as a heavyweight boxer without a weight limit to beat the drug seems a somewhat odd choice. But there is a whole world of pharma out there that is only known to the cheats.
    I would think assistance in building lean muscle mass would be of interest to anybody.
    Maybe. I don't know enough about it. But more obviously for those who need to replace body fat with muscle than those simply looking to bulk up I would have thought. If it is an industrial quantity to get the benefit then fair enough but if it is a trace one might look at potential contamination.
    I suggest you look at the "before" and "after" shots. Not saying it proves guilt, but he certainly changed his body a lot. He was all wibble wobble before...with the nickname "big daddy"...now is far more stripped down.
    That is true. Especially around the waist.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    SeanT said:

    I wonder how many more outrages it will take before there is a European Guantanamo.

    But but but "Think of the Backlash"...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    chestnut said:

    Clarke advocating taxing the Winter Fuel Payment.

    Taxing a pensioner benefit? Bold Mr Clarke, very bold.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,347
    Danny565 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_P said:

    Potentially in poor taste, but sadly relevant to betting and politics

    @theobertram: According to ComRes, Sadiq trails Zac by 7 pts on "keeping London safe from terrorist attacks" https://t.co/r7SnFTiw6j

    As a Zac campaigner I didn't want to point this out, but with the polls already narrowing the race is on. The "Corbyn's man" attack is really going to come into play now, I expect the next literature to include Corbyn's views on shoot to kill and having a cup of tea with ISIS.
    Do people really think the Mayor actually has any powers over "keeping Londoners safe" (or indeed powers over anything apart from transport or housing)?
    When you don't know who's side the mayor is on, ours or the terrorists, it's important. With Corbyn's views on ISIS and Sadiq's dodgy links to convicted terrorist supporters and organisations this is very relevant to a city like London where the threat of a terrorist attack is very real.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    I notice Sadiq was caught lying about his former speechwriter last night.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,253
    TGOHF said:

    By my calculations , higher rate tax payers in Scotland will be £300+ a year worse off than if they lived over the border.

    Still those gaelic road signs don't paint themselves.

    So the SNP aren't exactly "Red Tories" (return to 50p tax rate quietly dropped) - maybe more "Beige Tories"?
  • AndrewDAndrewD Posts: 27
    SeanT said:

    I wonder how many more outrages it will take before there is a European Guantanamo.

    Hundreds. We're not even willing to stop immigration from terrorist hotbeds.

    Our first policy should be to limit migration substantially from Iraq, Afghanistan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, Somalia and Libya.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited March 2016
    Danny565 said:

    Do people really think the Mayor actually has any powers over "keeping Londoners safe" (or indeed powers over anything apart from transport or housing)?

    He does, actually. He supervises the Met.

    I think it's fair to say that this is potentially a dangerous issue for Sadiq, although that ComRes poll shows a lot of Don't Knows on this particular issue, and he could address it by taking a firm line.

    In that context, this is interesting:

    http://www.lbc.co.uk/zac-accuses-sadiq-of-sniggering-over-brussels-response-127319
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Muscle is significantly heavier than fat too.
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    It was mentioned on here yesterday about misuse of medications is the new drug cheating...and today...

    Australian Browne stopped defending champion Ruslan Chagaev to win the title in Russia earlier this month. The 36-year-old delivered a positive sample for clenbuterol after the fight, his management company have revealed.

    Clenbuterol is a powerful drug used to treat asthma, but it can also help build up lean muscle mass and burn off fat.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/boxing/35871375

    It does seem a rather good point that as a heavyweight boxer without a weight limit to beat the drug seems a somewhat odd choice. But there is a whole world of pharma out there that is only known to the cheats.
    It works well even if you don't have to hit a weight limit, fat only slows you down - it's muscle you need !
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Sean_F said:

    IIRC from the full article, Plaid are 1% ahead of Tories on list seats.

    Worth reading the entrails.

    RE: Wales and the Yougov poll
    With Labour polling of 31%, it is so low on, I assume, unadjusted weightings post GE2015, there is room for a further drop of circa 2% within these numbers. There must be a tipping point below which Labour lose sheds loads of seats. Does any one have an idea where that is?

    Wales has been very gradually shifting against Labour, relative to the rest of the country, since 1970. There was a shift back to Labour in 1987, and 1992, probably due to having a Welsh leader, but then the pro-Conservative shift resumed, in relative terms. 11 Welsh seats is a very strong Conservative result, by historical standards. They beat that in 1983, with 14 seats, but that was when the party led by 16% nationally.
    In many ways, Wales is not a very good fit for Labour demographically these days. There aren't many major metropolises (with the obvious exception of the Cardiff area), population is overwhelmingly white.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,020

    Its ok everybody...we have no need to worry...Twitter has a hashtag for this and Instagram a picture to share...that will show them...

    A bit like that bollocks about the pencils after the Charle Hebdo attacks.

    Of course a year on there aren't many of the insufferably right-on that are still standing with Charlie Hebdo, as they insist of continuing to publish whatever the hell they like much of which offends the people who were carrying pencils last year.
  • AndrewDAndrewD Posts: 27

    One nail bomb found at airport, 14 dead Sky

    A truly evil action from an evil belief system.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    14:04 GMT
    Dutch police have conducted a special operation to detain a passenger traveling from Brussels to Amsterdam, TASS reported citing the Dutch Broadcasting Corporation. The train was reportedly stopped at the Hoofddorp station, one stop prior to Schiphol Airport, with all passengers evacuated to a nearby hotel. Eyewitnesses claim to have seen armed police removing one individual from the train.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    14:25 GMT
    The EU Commission HQ in Brussels is being evacuated, Belga news reported, citing the police.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,347
    Danny565 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IIRC from the full article, Plaid are 1% ahead of Tories on list seats.

    Worth reading the entrails.

    RE: Wales and the Yougov poll
    With Labour polling of 31%, it is so low on, I assume, unadjusted weightings post GE2015, there is room for a further drop of circa 2% within these numbers. There must be a tipping point below which Labour lose sheds loads of seats. Does any one have an idea where that is?

    Wales has been very gradually shifting against Labour, relative to the rest of the country, since 1970. There was a shift back to Labour in 1987, and 1992, probably due to having a Welsh leader, but then the pro-Conservative shift resumed, in relative terms. 11 Welsh seats is a very strong Conservative result, by historical standards. They beat that in 1983, with 14 seats, but that was when the party led by 16% nationally.
    In many ways, Wales is not a very good fit for Labour demographically these days. There aren't many major metropolises (with the obvious exception of the Cardiff area), population is overwhelmingly white.
    Absolutely right, though many of you Labour brethren would disagree with this view. Labour has become the party of minorities (specifically Muslims) and the chattering classes. More working class voters are deserting them.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,756
    Danny565 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IIRC from the full article, Plaid are 1% ahead of Tories on list seats.

    Worth reading the entrails.

    RE: Wales and the Yougov poll
    With Labour polling of 31%, it is so low on, I assume, unadjusted weightings post GE2015, there is room for a further drop of circa 2% within these numbers. There must be a tipping point below which Labour lose sheds loads of seats. Does any one have an idea where that is?

    Wales has been very gradually shifting against Labour, relative to the rest of the country, since 1970. There was a shift back to Labour in 1987, and 1992, probably due to having a Welsh leader, but then the pro-Conservative shift resumed, in relative terms. 11 Welsh seats is a very strong Conservative result, by historical standards. They beat that in 1983, with 14 seats, but that was when the party led by 16% nationally.
    In many ways, Wales is not a very good fit for Labour demographically these days. There aren't many major metropolises (with the obvious exception of the Cardiff area), population is overwhelmingly white.
    Labour's success in rural Wales, post-war, was always a bit of an anomaly. The Welsh Liberal Party simply imploded (the Conservatives likewise benefitted from the implosion of the Scottish Liberals). Someone was always bound to come along to challenge Labour (be it Plaid, Conservative, or Lib Dem) eventually.

    Ex-mining areas in Wales are starting to see Labour support fade. The end of coal-mining always leads to a fall in the Labour vote after a generation or so.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    MaxPB said:

    Danny565 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IIRC from the full article, Plaid are 1% ahead of Tories on list seats.

    Worth reading the entrails.

    RE: Wales and the Yougov poll
    With Labour polling of 31%, it is so low on, I assume, unadjusted weightings post GE2015, there is room for a further drop of circa 2% within these numbers. There must be a tipping point below which Labour lose sheds loads of seats. Does any one have an idea where that is?

    Wales has been very gradually shifting against Labour, relative to the rest of the country, since 1970. There was a shift back to Labour in 1987, and 1992, probably due to having a Welsh leader, but then the pro-Conservative shift resumed, in relative terms. 11 Welsh seats is a very strong Conservative result, by historical standards. They beat that in 1983, with 14 seats, but that was when the party led by 16% nationally.
    In many ways, Wales is not a very good fit for Labour demographically these days. There aren't many major metropolises (with the obvious exception of the Cardiff area), population is overwhelmingly white.
    Absolutely right, though many of you Labour brethren would disagree with this view. Labour has become the party of minorities (specifically Muslims) and the chattering classes. More working class voters are deserting them.
    Well, it's pretty much a worldwide trend for left-wing parties. The Democrats are even further down that line.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited March 2016
    Some hysterical headless chickens around today! Whatever happened to British pluck and a stiff upper lip?

    Some Belgians wete killed by bombs so we need Visas for all Belgians? Well within the last year there were terrorist outrages by Islamists in California, Montreal and Sydney. Visas for all these friendly countries too? Perhaps internal passports to stop the terrorists of Dewsbury and Luton while we are at it!

    The price of freedom and an open society is its vulnerability to such terrorists, but being in or out of the EU is not going to make a jot of difference. If you are relying on a visa clerk in the British embassy in Brussels to provide us with safety then we are going to need about a thousand more and very intrusive vetting!
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''The price of freedom and an open society is its vulnerability to such terrorists, but being in or out of the EU is not going to make a jot of difference.''

    I repeat. If that is so, then why is 'safer inside' a central plank of Remain's arguments??
  • AndrewDAndrewD Posts: 27

    Some hysterical headless chickens around today! Whatever happened to British pluck and a stiff upper lip?

    Some Belgians wete killed by bombs so we need Visas for all Belgians? Well within the last year there were terrorist outrages by Islamists in California, Montreal and Sydney. Visas for all these friendly countries too? Perhaps internal passports to stop the terrorists of Dewsbury and Luton while we are at it!

    The price of freedom and an open society is its vulnerability to such terrorists, but being in or out of the EU is not going to make a jot of difference. If you are relying on a visa clerk in the British embassy in Brussels to provide us with safety then we are going to need about a thousand more and very intrusive vetting!

    California, Quebec and Australia do not have areas of cities infested with Islamists where the police fear to go.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    #Stopislam trending on twitter.

    90% of people putting it in their tweets seem to be complaining about it. Guess they don't really understand how Twitter works :)
  • The attacks came just a day after a secret police dossier revealed there could be up to 90 'kamikazes' waiting to launch suicide bomb attacks in Europe after returning from Syria disguised as migrants.

    So open borders = letting the bombers in unchallenged. Schengen will die soon if this shit keeps up. The whole of the EU (UK included) needs to police its borders - and that means being a trifle 'nasty' to refugees on occasion.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Alistair said:

    chestnut said:

    Clarke advocating taxing the Winter Fuel Payment.

    Taxing a pensioner benefit? Bold Mr Clarke, very bold.
    On Sunday Politics East Midlands, Ken Clarke was saying that balancing the books always needed tax rises as well as austerity. Best PM we never had!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    taffys said:

    ''The price of freedom and an open society is its vulnerability to such terrorists, but being in or out of the EU is not going to make a jot of difference.''

    I repeat. If that is so, then why is 'safer inside' a central plank of Remain's arguments??

    It is not one that I make.
  • AndrewDAndrewD Posts: 27
    Patrick said:

    The attacks came just a day after a secret police dossier revealed there could be up to 90 'kamikazes' waiting to launch suicide bomb attacks in Europe after returning from Syria disguised as migrants.

    So open borders = letting the bombers in unchallenged. Schengen will die soon if this shit keeps up. The whole of the EU (UK included) needs to police its borders - and that means being a trifle 'nasty' to refugees on occasion.

    When teachers give lessons on this period of history, students will be shocked at how actively Europe participated in its own downfall.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    AndrewD said:

    Some hysterical headless chickens around today! Whatever happened to British pluck and a stiff upper lip?

    Some Belgians wete killed by bombs so we need Visas for all Belgians? Well within the last year there were terrorist outrages by Islamists in California, Montreal and Sydney. Visas for all these friendly countries too? Perhaps internal passports to stop the terrorists of Dewsbury and Luton while we are at it!

    The price of freedom and an open society is its vulnerability to such terrorists, but being in or out of the EU is not going to make a jot of difference. If you are relying on a visa clerk in the British embassy in Brussels to provide us with safety then we are going to need about a thousand more and very intrusive vetting!

    California, Quebec and Australia do not have areas of cities infested with Islamists where the police fear to go.
    But parts of the UK do!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,347
    Pro_Rata said:

    I'd forgotten this - it doesn't chime true with my personal impression from talking in depth to good numbers of Muslims who I consider I know well, particularly in the (middle-class) work place, but also back to my school days. A biased sample on my part, perhaps.

    So, which of the above is really indicative of ill intent on the part of those respondents and which indicate the respondents' ears for nuance, which could well also be quite different amongst, for e.g., first generation Pakistani Muslims:

    Perhaps not lack of surprise that [something akin to] the Paris attacks happened. I as White British could answer yes to that depending on how the mood took me. Likewise, understanding the motives [in a technical sense]. And, if I were Muslim, I may well have found the images offensive.

    I'd also wonder if nuance were also at play in: Acts of violence...can never be justified [Well, you might give them a slap?], I have some sympathy for the motives [but not the actions].

    Which leaves the first two questions as the worriers for me even taking account of any nuance in words like 'liberal' and the variety of things 'attacked' might mean.

    We might also quote the 'Muslims in Britain should always obey British laws' (93 yes/6 no).

    So, I could perhaps argue it down below 10% for those who have a general passive sympathy towards anti-Western attacks and a far smaller number than that likely to in any way become active. Not great, and I wouldn't consider to have 'won' any particular argument at this point simply by talking down the numbers a bit.

    But I would also wonder how that might have compared with NI Catholics in the 1970s and what that might mean for the possibilities of reversing such attitudes.

    You are projecting what you want to be the truth onto the reality of the situation:

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/ (2013)

    57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda.
    51% disapprove of the Taliban.
    13% support both groups and 1 in 4 refuse to say.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html (2006)

    40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK
    20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers

    http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam/article/detail/1619036/2013/04/22/Zestien-procent-moslimjongens-vindt-terrorisme-aanvaardbaar.dhtml (2013)

    16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".

    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/just-like-us-really (2008)

    38.6% of Muslims believe 9/11 attacks were justified (major study done in 35 nations interviewing tens of thousands).

    Muslims hold views that are incompatible with the west, pulling up the drawbridge and making life impossible for the extremists that are already here so they leave is the only solution to the problems facing Europe.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    Tories 100% behind Osborne with Gove right beside him. Written off too early?

    He's not quite back into 7-4 territory yet, but those laying Osborne at any price could turn out to be expensive...
    People forget 2 men have dominated UK politics for the last decade. Cameron is one of them.
    One man has dominated UK politics for the last decade - Dave. Osborne rode in on his coat tails and without Dave he would not be chancellor, he may have just entered the Cabinet in energy or transport.
    Osborne was shadow Chancellor before Cameron was leader wasn't he?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited March 2016
    And its starts already....wet "academic" on Sky blaming casual racism against Moroccans in Beligum as the reason for all of this.
  • AndrewDAndrewD Posts: 27

    AndrewD said:

    Some hysterical headless chickens around today! Whatever happened to British pluck and a stiff upper lip?

    Some Belgians wete killed by bombs so we need Visas for all Belgians? Well within the last year there were terrorist outrages by Islamists in California, Montreal and Sydney. Visas for all these friendly countries too? Perhaps internal passports to stop the terrorists of Dewsbury and Luton while we are at it!

    The price of freedom and an open society is its vulnerability to such terrorists, but being in or out of the EU is not going to make a jot of difference. If you are relying on a visa clerk in the British embassy in Brussels to provide us with safety then we are going to need about a thousand more and very intrusive vetting!

    California, Quebec and Australia do not have areas of cities infested with Islamists where the police fear to go.
    But parts of the UK do!
    That is a damning statement of the pathetic governments that have abandoned our borders in times gone by. It is time to stop adding to the problem by continuing their mistakes.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    Tories 100% behind Osborne with Gove right beside him. Written off too early?

    He's not quite back into 7-4 territory yet, but those laying Osborne at any price could turn out to be expensive...
    People forget 2 men have dominated UK politics for the last decade. Cameron is one of them.
    One man has dominated UK politics for the last decade - Dave. Osborne rode in on his coat tails and without Dave he would not be chancellor, he may have just entered the Cabinet in energy or transport.
    Osborne was shadow Chancellor before Cameron was leader wasn't he?
    Six months, appointed by Howard !
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    Tories 100% behind Osborne with Gove right beside him. Written off too early?

    He's not quite back into 7-4 territory yet, but those laying Osborne at any price could turn out to be expensive...
    People forget 2 men have dominated UK politics for the last decade. Cameron is one of them.
    One man has dominated UK politics for the last decade - Dave. Osborne rode in on his coat tails and without Dave he would not be chancellor, he may have just entered the Cabinet in energy or transport.
    Osborne was shadow Chancellor before Cameron was leader wasn't he?
    by several months
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,942

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    Tories 100% behind Osborne with Gove right beside him. Written off too early?

    He's not quite back into 7-4 territory yet, but those laying Osborne at any price could turn out to be expensive...
    People forget 2 men have dominated UK politics for the last decade. Cameron is one of them.
    One man has dominated UK politics for the last decade - Dave. Osborne rode in on his coat tails and without Dave he would not be chancellor, he may have just entered the Cabinet in energy or transport.
    Osborne was shadow Chancellor before Cameron was leader wasn't he?
    Yes he was. Osborne was more prominent under Howard's leadership until the leadership contest. At the time Cameron was only Shadow Education Secretary.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Cenbuterol - would be interesting to see if there is much medical research with the body building community - though I can understand not wanting to legitimise unsafe practises.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I want to slap her.

    And its starts already....wet "academic" on Sky blaming casual racism against Moroccans in Beligum as the reason for all of this.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    PAW said:

    Cenbuterol - would be interesting to see if there is much medical research with the body building community - though I can understand not wanting to legitimise unsafe practises.

    I believe it is widely used among body builders. Also, it seems that is the active ingredient in some diet tablets.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554

    I want to slap her.

    And its starts already....wet "academic" on Sky blaming casual racism against Moroccans in Beligum as the reason for all of this.

    I knew what was coming when they introduced her as the author of a book called something like "talking to terrorists".
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    edited March 2016
    MaxPB said:

    Danny565 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_P said:

    Potentially in poor taste, but sadly relevant to betting and politics

    @theobertram: According to ComRes, Sadiq trails Zac by 7 pts on "keeping London safe from terrorist attacks" https://t.co/r7SnFTiw6j

    As a Zac campaigner I didn't want to point this out, but with the polls already narrowing the race is on. The "Corbyn's man" attack is really going to come into play now, I expect the next literature to include Corbyn's views on shoot to kill and having a cup of tea with ISIS.
    Do people really think the Mayor actually has any powers over "keeping Londoners safe" (or indeed powers over anything apart from transport or housing)?
    When you don't know who's side the mayor is on, ours or the terrorists, it's important. With Corbyn's views on ISIS and Sadiq's dodgy links to convicted terrorist supporters and organisations this is very relevant to a city like London where the threat of a terrorist attack is very real.
    Oh get off your high horse mate. Zac is toast. You're wasting your time.
    Cameron's activities in Syria and Libya have been immensely damaging to our security. His bowing and scraping to jihadi sponsors in Qatar, Turkey and Saudi Arabia has been a disgrace. Corbyn's suggestions that we should first of all tackle these sponsors, especially where they are our allies, and also consider dealing with the less radical of the foot soldiers (many of whom are just effectively poor regional mercenaries) in a way that peels them off from the real jihadis, makes absolute sense, in a way that being best buds with the world's primary sponsors of terror whilst firing about 5 useless missiles in three months does not.
  • Here's what Trump said:

    "Do you all remember how beautiful and safe a place Brussels was? Not anymore!"

    "I would close up our borders."

    "[Muslims] have to be more open with the police. They have to let people know when they see people making bombs on the first floor of an apartment."

    "This is just the beginning. It will get worse and worse. It's out of control."

    "We cannot allow these people to come into our country. They're not assimilating into society. There's something different going on."

    "Muslims have to be checked very, very carefully. Muslims aren't assimilating easily into other countries. There's something wrong."

    "It's probably going to happen here."

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,896
    Danny565 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IIRC from the full article, Plaid are 1% ahead of Tories on list seats.

    Worth reading the entrails.

    RE: Wales and the Yougov poll
    With Labour polling of 31%, it is so low on, I assume, unadjusted weightings post GE2015, there is room for a further drop of circa 2% within these numbers. There must be a tipping point below which Labour lose sheds loads of seats. Does any one have an idea where that is?

    Wales has been very gradually shifting against Labour, relative to the rest of the country, since 1970. There was a shift back to Labour in 1987, and 1992, probably due to having a Welsh leader, but then the pro-Conservative shift resumed, in relative terms. 11 Welsh seats is a very strong Conservative result, by historical standards. They beat that in 1983, with 14 seats, but that was when the party led by 16% nationally.
    In many ways, Wales is not a very good fit for Labour demographically these days. There aren't many major metropolises (with the obvious exception of the Cardiff area), population is overwhelmingly white.
    There were no Tory seats in Wales in 1997.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited March 2016
    Sky bod just said Belgium only has a total of 700 people in security services. I know Belgium is a small country, but no wonder they haven't got a clue what is going on.

    In the UK, I believe GCHQ has 6-7k employees alone. Same for MI5 and MI6, etc etc etc.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    I want to slap her.

    And its starts already....wet "academic" on Sky blaming casual racism against Moroccans in Beligum as the reason for all of this.

    Dangerous thing to say Geert Wilders is on trial for this.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    AndrewD said:

    AndrewD said:

    Some hysterical headless chickens around today! Whatever happened to British pluck and a stiff upper lip?

    Some Belgians wete killed by bombs so we need Visas for all Belgians? Well within the last year there were terrorist outrages by Islamists in California, Montreal and Sydney. Visas for all these friendly countries too? Perhaps internal passports to stop the terrorists of Dewsbury and Luton while we are at it!

    The price of freedom and an open society is its vulnerability to such terrorists, but being in or out of the EU is not going to make a jot of difference. If you are relying on a visa clerk in the British embassy in Brussels to provide us with safety then we are going to need about a thousand more and very intrusive vetting!

    California, Quebec and Australia do not have areas of cities infested with Islamists where the police fear to go.
    But parts of the UK do!
    That is a damning statement of the pathetic governments that have abandoned our borders in times gone by. It is time to stop adding to the problem by continuing their mistakes.
    You mean when we were all subjects of the monarch of the British Empire, when a quarter of the world could move to the UK without even a passport let alone a visa?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Pew Research
    Republicans prefer blunt talk about Islamic extremism, Democrats favor caution https://t.co/OMCEclPogf https://t.co/KY0rSaQWp2
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,387
    runnymede said:

    'I wonder how many more outrages it will take before there is a European Guantanamo.'

    I'm sure it won't be long before the EU tries to use these events to push forward its plans for an EU-wide 'border' force, an EU army, deeper intrusion into people's privacy and of course a single criminal justice system (in which the future of jury trials would be at serious risk).

    That won't be 'tasteless' of course.

    This somewhat ignores that something similar to every single one of the above actions or functions has, at some point in the last 10 years or so, been enacted or deployed within Britain solely by the UK government in the fight against terror.

    If the EU enacted this Eurosceptic multiverse clause in which it everywhere became the sum total of everything it might conceivably at any point in the future consider doing anywhere, irrespective of the need for agreement, I'm pretty sure I too would be a leaver. As it is, I'll judge rather on the sum of what it has actually done and realistically might soon do specifically with regards to the UK.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    RodCrosby said:

    14:25 GMT
    The EU Commission HQ in Brussels is being evacuated, Belga news reported, citing the police.

    It was in lockdown after the original attacks. Is this just letting them go home?
  • AndrewDAndrewD Posts: 27

    AndrewD said:

    AndrewD said:

    Some hysterical headless chickens around today! Whatever happened to British pluck and a stiff upper lip?

    Some Belgians wete killed by bombs so we need Visas for all Belgians? Well within the last year there were terrorist outrages by Islamists in California, Montreal and Sydney. Visas for all these friendly countries too? Perhaps internal passports to stop the terrorists of Dewsbury and Luton while we are at it!

    The price of freedom and an open society is its vulnerability to such terrorists, but being in or out of the EU is not going to make a jot of difference. If you are relying on a visa clerk in the British embassy in Brussels to provide us with safety then we are going to need about a thousand more and very intrusive vetting!

    California, Quebec and Australia do not have areas of cities infested with Islamists where the police fear to go.
    But parts of the UK do!
    That is a damning statement of the pathetic governments that have abandoned our borders in times gone by. It is time to stop adding to the problem by continuing their mistakes.
    You mean when we were all subjects of the monarch of the British Empire, when a quarter of the world could move to the UK without even a passport let alone a visa?
    Most of this immigration came after places like Pakistan were already independent.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,504

    Words are always inadequate to describe our sense of outrage at these attacks.

    Or indeed our sense of sorrow at the suffering of people today, those who have lost people they loved, those who have family and friends injured.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,790
    MaxPB said:

    Danny565 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_P said:

    Potentially in poor taste, but sadly relevant to betting and politics

    @theobertram: According to ComRes, Sadiq trails Zac by 7 pts on "keeping London safe from terrorist attacks" https://t.co/r7SnFTiw6j

    As a Zac campaigner I didn't want to point this out, but with the polls already narrowing the race is on. The "Corbyn's man" attack is really going to come into play now, I expect the next literature to include Corbyn's views on shoot to kill and having a cup of tea with ISIS.
    Do people really think the Mayor actually has any powers over "keeping Londoners safe" (or indeed powers over anything apart from transport or housing)?
    When you don't know who's side the mayor is on, ours or the terrorists, it's important. With Corbyn's views on ISIS and Sadiq's dodgy links to convicted terrorist supporters and organisations this is very relevant to a city like London where the threat of a terrorist attack is very real.

    We do know whose side Khan is on. Obviously, his opponents will seek to portray him as sympathetic to terrorists because he is a Moslem, but nothing he has ever said or done indicates that he supports jihadi violence or the aims of jihadis. It's less clear with Corbyn, of course, and that is a serious problem for Labour.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,253
    JWisemann said:

    MaxPB said:

    Danny565 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_P said:

    Potentially in poor taste, but sadly relevant to betting and politics

    @theobertram: According to ComRes, Sadiq trails Zac by 7 pts on "keeping London safe from terrorist attacks" https://t.co/r7SnFTiw6j

    As a Zac campaigner I didn't want to point this out, but with the polls already narrowing the race is on. The "Corbyn's man" attack is really going to come into play now, I expect the next literature to include Corbyn's views on shoot to kill and having a cup of tea with ISIS.
    Do people really think the Mayor actually has any powers over "keeping Londoners safe" (or indeed powers over anything apart from transport or housing)?
    When you don't know who's side the mayor is on, ours or the terrorists, it's important. With Corbyn's views on ISIS and Sadiq's dodgy links to convicted terrorist supporters and organisations this is very relevant to a city like London where the threat of a terrorist attack is very real.
    Cameron's activities in Syria and Libya have been immensely damaging to our security.
    As damaging as Blair in Iraq?
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    T'his somewhat ignores that something similar to every single one of the above actions or functions has, at some point in the last 10 years or so, been enacted or deployed within Britain solely by the UK government in the fight against terror.'

    What are you on about?

    Britain has had an army, justice system and border forces of its own for centuries. Under the control of its own government. And yes, it has restricted people's rights too - but we can vote for or against that.

    If the EU takes over these functions, we will lose democratic oversight over them and some valuable features of our particular systems too (e.g. jury trials and perhaps even the presumption of innocence).

    And don't for one moment think these things are not on the cards - the plans are quite public. Only the moment is uncertain...but the EU never wastes a crisis.

This discussion has been closed.