But he didn't say that, did he? If he had made that argument we could have an honest discussion about it. He said it "did not cover services". Which is just completely and obviously untrue.
the claims that, for example, the G20 finance ministers have all been nobbled by Osborne just look utterly bonkers.
To say that the G20 finance ministers have been nobbled by GO or are acting as his stooges etc is a straw man argument.
They have been asked to make some sympathetic noises to help a fellow world leader with his little domestic difficulty and are obliging him.
Exactly, if a government finance minister at G20 requests his fellow leaders say there is a risk to his own country, who does Richard think is going to object to that? Especially when most of the other leaders want the same result in the referendum for their own entirely selfish reasons that we have no reason to care about (rest of Europe not wanting to lose us and our contributions, USA not wanting to have the EU be without us).
Finance minister from UK proposes a line saying there is a risk to the UK, nobody objects, motion carried. Who Richard would you have expected to object to Osborne's request?
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
But he didn't say that, did he? If he had made that argument we could have an honest discussion about it. He said it "did not cover services". Which is just completely and obviously untrue.
So he made a mistake, or was simplifying.
It's these accusations of lying which I find completely counter-productive. It's really demeaning of the Leave side (to be fair, not often you), and personally I find it a massive turn-off, making it hard to take the Leave side seriously even when they might have a point. Similarly, the claims that, for example, the G20 finance ministers have all been nobbled by Osborne just look utterly bonkers. Such personal attacks play well with the hardcore base of Leavers, but won't impress anyone else.
It wasn't a mistake. Its not like he knew and accidentally said the wrong thing. He either just didn't know the facts (most likely in my opinion) on a basic topic or he was lying (less likely). Nor was it simplifying, given reality was direct opposite of his claim: services are a main component of CETA.
Accusing people of lying if they do not share a viewpoint does the referendum no favours. The accusation can equally apply to many on the each side and just wearies voters. Independent facts are needed from experts who do not have an agenda
I agree but we're not talking about viewpoints here. Whether CETA covers services or not is a matter of fact. Its like arguing that a water molecule doesn't contain hydrogen. You're either ignorant or not telling the truth. But as I said, I think Umunna just doesn't know the facts. Like a lot in the metropolitan bubble, he probably adopts the views of people around him without much thought or reading.
It seems to me lots of people on both sides are confused, ill informed, and just passing opinions without knowledge. It is one of the reasons I have stopped listening to the paper reviews as most people expressing opinions are hopeless, even clueless
Listening to David Cameron at the Welsh Conservative Conference he is repeating the same theme as all his previous speeches that we are safer economically and in security and that leaving is a huge risk to jobs and prosperity and that leave have no coherent narrative of what the UK would be like outside the EU. Andrew T Davies, the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, who is for leave seemed somewhat embarrassed as DC received a good response from the delegates on concluding his speech. Very strange times but I believe that DC will continue with the same speech throughout the campaign as it does seem very credible
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
If the risk to the UK is as terrible as he says, then he was irresponsible to hold a referendum. You don't offer a child sandwich fillings of cheese, ham, or razorblades and then shout at them when they ask for the razorblades you offered.
If the risk to the UK isn't as terrible as Cameron says, he's lying.
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Polls show about 90% of Nationalists supporting Remain whereas Unionists are about 2 to 1 in favour of Leave. Since the latter have only a slight demographic advantage these days, Remain should carry Northern Ireland fairly comfortably, but that of course assumes roughly equal turnout on both sides. If Unionists are more enthusiastic about voting it could be close.
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Any polls on this in NI?
Furthermore are the referendum polls in this by YouGov etc polls of the UK or polls of Britain?
I understand why NI isn't polled in general election polls, given 100% of their MPs are "others", but it seems like it would be remiss to exclude them from a yes/no national referendum.
Listening to David Cameron at the Welsh Conservative Conference he is repeating the same theme as all his previous speeches that we are safer economically and in security and that leaving is a huge risk to jobs and prosperity and that leave have no coherent narrative of what the UK would be like outside the EU. Andrew T Davies, the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, who is for leave seemed somewhat embarrassed as DC received a good response from the delegates on concluding his speech. Very strange times but I believe that DC will continue with the same speech throughout the campaign as it does seem very credible
You think the EU is waving.
I think its drowning.
I think drowning may be a bit unfortunate but I am sure you used it innocently
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Polls show about 90% of Nationalists supporting Remain whereas Unionists are about 2 to 1 in favour of Leave. Since the latter have only a slight demographic advantage these days, Remain should carry Northern Ireland fairly comfortably, but that of course assumes roughly equal turnout on both sides. If Unionists are more enthusiastic about voting it could be close.
Remain will win NI.
The last polls showed a slight narrowing of the vote but the gap is huge.
If the risk to the UK is as terrible as he says, then he was irresponsible to hold a referendum. You don't offer a child sandwich fillings of cheese, ham, or razorblades and then shout at them when they ask for the razorblades you offered.
If the risk to the UK isn't as terrible as Cameron says, he's lying.
He compared Mr Corbyn's leadership to an episode of The Simpsons where Homer is repeatedly injured while being rescued from the bottom of a ravine.
"It’s this scene that most accurately describes life in the Labour Party right now," he said. "The fear, the pain and for some – like an overweight middle-aged man who believes he can jump a canyon on a child’s skateboard – the baseless optimism in the face of all available evidence.
"It goes something like this: sovereignty of the Falkland Islands [bump], raising money for the Stop the War Coalition [crunch], campaigning against party policy alongside CND [smash].
"Finding ourselves in the back of the ambulance, it sets off, and instantly crashes as we roll out backwards. Gerry Downing [smash], Mark Serwotka’s deselection joy [crunch], Ken Livingstone [smash, crunch, smash]."
Mr Reed added: "Yet it isn’t funny. Ultimately the horrendous self-inflicted mistakes of the last six months have not been about politics per se.
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
Given at the last census those stating no religion was the fastest growing sector, religion isn't the sure fire indicator it was.
If the risk to the UK is as terrible as he says, then he was irresponsible to hold a referendum. You don't offer a child sandwich fillings of cheese, ham, or razorblades and then shout at them when they ask for the razorblades you offered.
If the risk to the UK isn't as terrible as Cameron says, he's lying.
Another lying accusation.
Stop calling it a lie. It is an opinion. It is an interpretation of the actions of David Cameron. It is not being offered up as a fact, like the price of fish is a fact.
Listening to David Cameron at the Welsh Conservative Conference he is repeating the same theme as all his previous speeches that we are safer economically and in security and that leaving is a huge risk to jobs and prosperity and that leave have no coherent narrative of what the UK would be like outside the EU. Andrew T Davies, the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, who is for leave seemed somewhat embarrassed as DC received a good response from the delegates on concluding his speech. Very strange times but I believe that DC will continue with the same speech throughout the campaign as it does seem very credible
You think the EU is waving.
I think its drowning.
I think drowning may be a bit unfortunate but I am sure you used it innocently
Its a literary reference from the Stevie Smith poem.
Mr. NorthWales, Cameron's giving people a choice of A or B, and saying if we pick A all the horrors of Hell will spill forth, and fire will rain from the sky. It's not credible. The overblown doom and gloom is simply not believable, because if Cameron actually did believe it then a referendum would not have been promised.
I'm not some Cameron-hating far-right chap. I've defended him quite a lot on here. But on this EU negotiation and referendum I think he's deeply unconvincing, and I've lost rather a lot of respect for him.
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
If the risk to the UK is as terrible as he says, then he was irresponsible to hold a referendum. You don't offer a child sandwich fillings of cheese, ham, or razorblades and then shout at them when they ask for the razorblades you offered.
If the risk to the UK isn't as terrible as Cameron says, he's lying.
Another lying accusation.
Stop calling it a lie you fool. It is an opinion. It is an interpretation of the actions of David Cameron. It is not being offered up as a fact, like the price of fish is a fact.
I am not a fool and insults do your argument no favours. You are just wrong by saying that David Cameron should not have offered a referendum if he felt there was a risk to the UK. It was a decision for democracy and he should be complemented for it.
Mr. NorthWales, Cameron's giving people a choice of A or B, and saying if we pick A all the horrors of Hell will spill forth, and fire will rain from the sky. It's not credible. The overblown doom and gloom is simply not believable, because if Cameron actually did believe it then a referendum would not have been promised.
I'm not some Cameron-hating far-right chap. I've defended him quite a lot on here. But on this EU negotiation and referendum I think he's deeply unconvincing, and I've lost rather a lot of respect for him.
Presumably under your logic he should also refuse to hold a General Election until Labour have got rid of Corbyn and Momentum and reformed into a central left Blairite party, given the danger they would be to the UK?
If the risk to the UK is as terrible as he says, then he was irresponsible to hold a referendum. You don't offer a child sandwich fillings of cheese, ham, or razorblades and then shout at them when they ask for the razorblades you offered.
If the risk to the UK isn't as terrible as Cameron says, he's lying.
Another lying accusation.
Stop calling it a lie you fool. It is an opinion. It is an interpretation of the actions of David Cameron. It is not being offered up as a fact, like the price of fish is a fact.
I am not a fool and insults do your argument no favours. You are just wrong by saying that David Cameron should not have offered a referendum if he felt there was a risk to the UK. It was a decision for democracy and he should be complemented for it.
Indulge me. When you look at Europe, the Europe we are being urged to stay in, what do you see? What do you think of its economy? How democratic do you think it is? What do you think is its future?
Mr. NorthWales, Cameron's giving people a choice of A or B, and saying if we pick A all the horrors of Hell will spill forth, and fire will rain from the sky. It's not credible. The overblown doom and gloom is simply not believable, because if Cameron actually did believe it then a referendum would not have been promised.
It seemed to work well enough as a general election strategy.
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
Mr. D, whether we have elections or not isn't something determined by the party that wins most recently. This referendum on the EU is entirely optional.
Mr. NorthWales, I do welcome the referendum, it's the incredible utterances of Cameron that earn him my opprobrium.
Mr. NorthWales, Cameron's giving people a choice of A or B, and saying if we pick A all the horrors of Hell will spill forth, and fire will rain from the sky. It's not credible. The overblown doom and gloom is simply not believable, because if Cameron actually did believe it then a referendum would not have been promised.
It seemed to work well enough as a general election strategy.
I expect the Tory vote to swing to Dave but will Labour get out the vote? That is the crucial question.
Corbyn and his general crappiness plus his general nonchalant attitude to the referendum could win this for Leave. Would if that would get the knives out for him if it did?
Plus the referendum is likely to happen after Labour is expected to lose hundreds more Councillors. Will there be Labour infighting during the campaign then? Will the loss of Councillors and activists play a role in getting out the vote?
Who knows?
I suspect that this referendum will be won or lost depending on whether we see one or more of the following events:
1. Eurogeddon Part II 2. A big increase in migrant flows 3. A terrorist incident
If nothing happens, then in all likelihood Remain wins.
What would you like - a state of emergency declared in an EU country over the migrant problem?
I don't want any human misery. I am merely pointing out that Leave will benefit from disruptions.
I don't want human misery - I especially don't want UK human misery. When push comes to shove, however , sometimes you have to do "the dreadful algebra of necessity".
Mr. NorthWales, Cameron's giving people a choice of A or B, and saying if we pick A all the horrors of Hell will spill forth, and fire will rain from the sky. It's not credible. The overblown doom and gloom is simply not believable, because if Cameron actually did believe it then a referendum would not have been promised.
I'm not some Cameron-hating far-right chap. I've defended him quite a lot on here. But on this EU negotiation and referendum I think he's deeply unconvincing, and I've lost rather a lot of respect for him.
If Cameron were truly promising "the horrors of Hell" you would have a point but he's not. People use those colourful metaphors but in reality all he's predicting are some negative effects, mostly economic, which while sub-optimal would be easily survivable. Also, others disagree with him about the risk and no one can say for certain who is right. It's not unreasonable to put it to a vote and then, as Cameron is doing, argue forcefully for your position.
Boris, how does he get away with it? if Britain left the EU, “we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by Brussels”. "no downsides from leaving the EU"
How does he get away with it, Mr Song?
Not sure that he does really.
Just that nobody takes any notice of anything he says.
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
No religion and not stated is 16%
My figures are from "Religion or religion brought up" (which was called Community Background in 2001), which effectively reduces "don't knows".
If you want plain old "religion" it's:
Protestant 42% Catholic 41% Other 1% Not stated/none 17%
Trump is an amazing natural communicator. Better even than Obama.
Clinton is the Romney of this election.
Trump gives the impression he's not running for President. It's merely a tedious process that has to be gone through before he can start on the job of "making America great again" and "getting rid of ISIS", etc.
I don't get this opposition to calling politicians liars. All politicians lie. It is a basic part of their skill set and the most successful ones are those who can lie most convincingly. They lie by ommission, they lie by conflation or exaggeration and they lie by outright false claims.
What they don't do is lie by ignorance. Lying is a conscious decision and involves knowing misrepresentation .
So in the end if a politician says something which is not true they are indeed either lying or ignorant.
In that case why should we, as the people from either side of the argument who know that what has been said is false, not make it clear that a lie has been told?
If politicians don't like being called liars then they should stop lying.
But he didn't say that, did he? If he had made that argument we could have an honest discussion about it. He said it "did not cover services". Which is just completely and obviously untrue.
So he made a mistake, or was simplifying.
It's these accusations of lying we of Leavers, but won't impress anyone else.
It wasn't a mistake. Its not like he knew and accidentally said the wrong thing. He either just didn't know the facts (most likely in my opinion) on a basic topic or he was lying (less likely). Nor was it simplifying, given reality was direct opposite of his claim: services are a main component of CETA.
Accusing people of lying if they do not share a viewpoint does the referendum no favours. The accusation can equally apply to many on the each side and just wearies voters. Independent facts are needed from experts who do not have an agenda
I agree but we're not talking about viewpoints here. Whether CETA covers services or not is a matter of fact. Its like arguing that a water molecule doesn't contain hydrogen. You're either ignorant or not telling the truth. But as I said, I think Umunna just doesn't know the facts. Like a lot in the metropolitan bubble, he probably adopts the views of people around him without much thought or reading.
I think it was @Alanbrooke who pointed out the dangers of seeing in/out in terms of black and white. He is right.
(Skim) reading Ch.13 of the agreement financial services is covered in great depth. It looks very encouraging and similar to the current EU passporting system. The issue remains, however, that Canada doesn't get to help decide the rules of the game, the game being trading in EUR-denominated instruments in Europe.
If you remember we went round the houses on this but both CETA, and EEA/EFTA means that those organisations' member states will continue to receive the rules and regs of trading EUR-denominated instruments by fax.
So a great mutual access, protection, conflict resolution agreement, yes. But Canada is still outside the room when the rules are devised.
I note a theme from @SouthamObserver: why should we swap what we have now for something less good.
In financial services, if we had a CETA-type agreement, the roof wouldn't fall in (not that GO has mended it), but we would be in a less strong position than we are now. Perhaps we would be in an equally less good position across the other industry and service sectors.
If this is the case I don't necessarily see the point of leaving to achieve that less good situation.
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
Bear in mind Antrim has 10x the population of Fermanagh!
I don't get this opposition to calling politicians liars. All politicians lie. It is a basic part of their skill set and the most successful ones are those who can lie most convincingly. They lie by ommission, they lie by conflation or exaggeration and they lie by outright false claims.
What they don't do is lie by ignorance. Lying is a conscious decision and involves knowing misrepresentation .
So in the end if a politician says something which is not true they are indeed either lying or ignorant.
In that case why should we, as the people from either side of the argument who know that what has been said is false, not make it clear that a lie has been told?
If politicians don't like being called liars then they should stop lying.
"I always lie. In fact, I am lying to you now!" - Harry Mudd
If the risk to the UK is as terrible as he says, then he was irresponsible to hold a referendum. You don't offer a child sandwich fillings of cheese, ham, or razorblades and then shout at them when they ask for the razorblades you offered.
If the risk to the UK isn't as terrible as Cameron says, he's lying.
What a silly post. If Cameron had ignored the manifesto commitment you'd be screeching foul. You've got you're cake - eat it.
Mr. NorthWales, Cameron's giving people a choice of A or B, and saying if we pick A all the horrors of Hell will spill forth, and fire will rain from the sky. It's not credible. The overblown doom and gloom is simply not believable, because if Cameron actually did believe it then a referendum would not have been promised.
It seemed to work well enough as a general election strategy.
At the general election it was believable.
It also worked in the indyref, the av referendum and many general elections in the past - 1992 being an obvious example. Fear of the alternative is a factor in all life decisions - changing jobs, moving house etc etc.
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
No religion and not stated is 16%
My figures are from "Religion or religion brought up" (which was called Community Background in 2001), which effectively reduces "don't knows".
If you want plain old "religion" it's:
Protestant 42% Catholic 41% Other 1% Not stated/none 17%
LOL
grow up there did you :-)
the place is a damned sight more complex than proddy \ catholic.
Are you counting the 1% of the population that is polish as british catholics or irish catholics ?
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
No religion and not stated is 16%
My figures are from "Religion or religion brought up" (which was called Community Background in 2001), which effectively reduces "don't knows".
If you want plain old "religion" it's:
Protestant 42% Catholic 41% Other 1% Not stated/none 17%
LOL
grow up there did you :-)
Did you grow up there? I was quoting the 2011 Census data.
Mr. NorthWales, Cameron's giving people a choice of A or B, and saying if we pick A all the horrors of Hell will spill forth, and fire will rain from the sky. It's not credible. The overblown doom and gloom is simply not believable, because if Cameron actually did believe it then a referendum would not have been promised.
I'm not some Cameron-hating far-right chap. I've defended him quite a lot on here. But on this EU negotiation and referendum I think he's deeply unconvincing, and I've lost rather a lot of respect for him.
Presumably under your logic he should also refuse to hold a General Election until Labour have got rid of Corbyn and Momentum and reformed into a central left Blairite party, given the danger they would be to the UK?
If the risk to the UK is as terrible as he says, then he was irresponsible to hold a referendum. You don't offer a child sandwich fillings of cheese, ham, or razorblades and then shout at them when they ask for the razorblades you offered.
If the risk to the UK isn't as terrible as Cameron says, he's lying.
What a silly post. If Cameron had ignored the manifesto commitment you'd be screeching foul. You've got you're cake - eat it.
So if he believed that leaving the EU would be do utterly catastrophic for the UK then why did he even make the manifesto commitment?
If the risk to the UK is as terrible as he says, then he was irresponsible to hold a referendum. You don't offer a child sandwich fillings of cheese, ham, or razorblades and then shout at them when they ask for the razorblades you offered.
If the risk to the UK isn't as terrible as Cameron says, he's lying.
What a silly post. If Cameron had ignored the manifesto commitment you'd be screeching foul. You've got you're cake - eat it.
So if he believed that leaving the EU would be do utterly catastrophic for the UK then why did he even make the manifesto commitment?
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
No religion and not stated is 16%
My figures are from "Religion or religion brought up" (which was called Community Background in 2001), which effectively reduces "don't knows".
If you want plain old "religion" it's:
Protestant 42% Catholic 41% Other 1% Not stated/none 17%
LOL
grow up there did you :-)
the place is a damned sight more complex than proddy \ catholic.
Are you counting the 1% of the population that is polish as british catholics or irish catholics ?
Mr. NorthWales, Cameron's giving people a choice of A or B, and saying if we pick A all the horrors of Hell will spill forth, and fire will rain from the sky. It's not credible. The overblown doom and gloom is simply not believable, because if Cameron actually did believe it then a referendum would not have been promised.
I'm not some Cameron-hating far-right chap. I've defended him quite a lot on here. But on this EU negotiation and referendum I think he's deeply unconvincing, and I've lost rather a lot of respect for him.
Presumably under your logic he should also refuse to hold a General Election until Labour have got rid of Corbyn and Momentum and reformed into a central left Blairite party, given the danger they would be to the UK?
Lol nail on the head!
No.. Legally he has to have a GE. He did not have to have a referendum.
Mr. NorthWales, Cameron's giving people a choice of A or B, and saying if we pick A all the horrors of Hell will spill forth, and fire will rain from the sky. It's not credible. The overblown doom and gloom is simply not believable, because if Cameron actually did believe it then a referendum would not have been promised.
I'm not some Cameron-hating far-right chap. I've defended him quite a lot on here. But on this EU negotiation and referendum I think he's deeply unconvincing, and I've lost rather a lot of respect for him.
Presumably under your logic he should also refuse to hold a General Election until Labour have got rid of Corbyn and Momentum and reformed into a central left Blairite party, given the danger they would be to the UK?
Lol nail on the head!
I'm no. Legally he has to have a GE. He did not have to have a referendum.
He does now, as Pariament passed a law to that effect.
Carson seems to imply Clinton is in league with the Devil to destroy America, and God granted him the wisdom to see Trump as the saviour of the nation...
Mr. NorthWales, Cameron's giving people a choice of A or B, and saying if we pick A all the horrors of Hell will spill forth, and fire will rain from the sky. It's not credible. The overblown doom and gloom is simply not believable, because if Cameron actually did believe it then a referendum would not have been promised.
I'm not some Cameron-hating far-right chap. I've defended him quite a lot on here. But on this EU negotiation and referendum I think he's deeply unconvincing, and I've lost rather a lot of respect for him.
Presumably under your logic he should also refuse to hold a General Election until Labour have got rid of Corbyn and Momentum and reformed into a central left Blairite party, given the danger they would be to the UK?
Lol nail on the head!
I'm no. Legally he has to have a GE. He did not have to have a referendum.
So what - just because people like you don't like what he says doesn't alter the fact that he is honouring a promise made to voters.
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
No religion and not stated is 16%
My figures are from "Religion or religion brought up" (which was called Community Background in 2001), which effectively reduces "don't knows".
If you want plain old "religion" it's:
Protestant 42% Catholic 41% Other 1% Not stated/none 17%
LOL
grow up there did you :-)
the place is a damned sight more complex than proddy \ catholic.
Are you counting the 1% of the population that is polish as british catholics or irish catholics ?
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
Bear in mind Antrim has 10x the population of Fermanagh!
Yes, hence the slight plurality for the Protestant community across NI.
Just for fun, given the Republic also had their Census in 2011, including the remaining Ulster counties of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, one gets (remember, this is just for a bit of fun!):
Catholic 50.8% Protestant 42.7% Other 1.2% None/not stated 5.4%
A Referendum is long overdue...Cameron offered it and we voted for it..now stop whining and get on with it...Suddenly the Brits have gone all wimpish..
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
Bear in mind Antrim has 10x the population of Fermanagh!
Yes, hence the slight plurality for the Protestant community across NI.
Just for fun, given the Republic also had their Census in 2011, including the remaining Ulster counties of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, one gets (remember, this is just for a bit of fun!):
Catholic 50.8% Protestant 42.7% Other 1.2% None/not stated 5.4%
The whole of Ulster has only had a protestant majority in the late eighteenth century primarly due to Scots migration. Then they got bored headed off to the Appalchians and became hillbillies.
In any case your're using the wrong conuties. True Ulster includes Louth not Cavan.
If the risk to the UK is as terrible as he says, then he was irresponsible to hold a referendum. You don't offer a child sandwich fillings of cheese, ham, or razorblades and then shout at them when they ask for the razorblades you offered.
If the risk to the UK isn't as terrible as Cameron says, he's lying.
What a silly post. If Cameron had ignored the manifesto commitment you'd be screeching foul. You've got you're cake - eat it.
So if he believed that leaving the EU would be do utterly catastrophic for the UK then why did he even make the manifesto commitment?
He probably assumed that polling would be showing 80/20 in Remain's favour, and he'd have an easy ride. Hence the lack of preparedness, attention to detail and shockingly poor attempt at negotiation.
Indulge me. When you look at Europe, the Europe we are being urged to stay in, what do you see? What do you think of its economy? How democratic do you think it is? What do you think is its future?
I see a disaster zone and the real prospect of there being a rupture that may well result in the Balkans making their own arbitrary decisions and that Germany, and in particular Merkel, having to change their policy on the great migration exodus by closing her border and accepting that David Cameron has called this right from day one. However it will remain a market of 500 million people and I am in favour of free movement of labour in so far as it has benefited the Country and with unemployment at just over 5% it seems to have been absorbed. We control or own borders and therefore we do not need to accept any quotas of refugees as proposed by the EU. We are also out of the Euro and have an agreement that we are excluded from ever closer Union. Mark Carney indicated at the Treasury select Committee that David Cameron had secured a good deal and as I am not well versed in the City his comments satisfied me. I do feel that by being a Member we will have an influence and I believe David Cameron has influenced many leaders and that this process will continue and indeed may become a vital part of protecting our own interests from within. If all else fails and the EU reject David Cameron's agreement I believe the UK would demand that Section 50 of the Treaty was served on the EU. As far as leaving is concerned I believe leave have to come together under one policy whether it is EEA/EFTA etc and sell that policy, as anything else would be misleading the voters. If post Brexit the voters were told free movement of labour continued there would be fury as I believe it is the abolition of free movement of labour that most leaver's (not all) want to see. I hope this has assisted in placing my position on record at the present time, but of course circumstance could change my view
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
Bear in mind Antrim has 10x the population of Fermanagh!
Yes, hence the slight plurality for the Protestant community across NI.
Just for fun, given the Republic also had their Census in 2011, including the remaining Ulster counties of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, one gets (remember, this is just for a bit of fun!):
Catholic 50.8% Protestant 42.7% Other 1.2% None/not stated 5.4%
The whole of Ulster has only had a protestant majority in the late eighteenth century primarly due to Scots migration. Then they got bored headed off to the Appalchians and became hillbillies.
In any case your're using the wrong conuties. True Ulster includes Louth not Cavan.
Yebbut that's like saying "True Scotland" includes Berwick!
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
Bear in mind Antrim has 10x the population of Fermanagh!
Yes, hence the slight plurality for the Protestant community across NI.
Just for fun, given the Republic also had their Census in 2011, including the remaining Ulster counties of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, one gets (remember, this is just for a bit of fun!):
Catholic 50.8% Protestant 42.7% Other 1.2% None/not stated 5.4%
The whole of Ulster has only had a protestant majority in the late eighteenth century primarly due to Scots migration. Then they got bored headed off to the Appalchians and became hillbillies.
In any case your're using the wrong conuties. True Ulster includes Louth not Cavan.
Yebbut that's like saying "True Scotland" includes Berwick!
A Referendum is long overdue...Cameron offered it and we voted for it..now stop whining and get on with it...Suddenly the Brits have gone all wimpish..
But it’s too early, Nigel & Co. haven’t had time to frame the case for Leave yet.
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
Bear in mind Antrim has 10x the population of Fermanagh!
Yes, hence the slight plurality for the Protestant community across NI.
Just for fun, given the Republic also had their Census in 2011, including the remaining Ulster counties of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, one gets (remember, this is just for a bit of fun!):
Catholic 50.8% Protestant 42.7% Other 1.2% None/not stated 5.4%
The whole of Ulster has only had a protestant majority in the late eighteenth century primarly due to Scots migration. Then they got bored headed off to the Appalchians and became hillbillies.
In any case your're using the wrong conuties. True Ulster includes Louth not Cavan.
Yebbut that's like saying "True Scotland" includes Berwick!
Or "True England" includes Monmouth if you prefer
As I said you didn't grow up there. :-)
Hmmm. Louth is a wee bit more Catholic, and less Protestant than Cavan.
Indulge me. When you look at Europe, the Europe we are being urged to stay in, what do you see? What do you think of its economy? How democratic do you think it is? What do you think is its future?
I see a disaster zone and the real prospect of there being a rupture that may well result in the Balkans making their own arbitrary decisions and that Germany, and in particular Merkel, having to change their policy on the great migration exodus by closing her border and accepting that David Cameron has called this right from day one. However it will remain a market of 500 million people and I am in favour of free movement of labour in so far as it has benefited the Country and with unemployment at just over 5% it seems to have been absorbed. We control or own borders and therefore we do not need to accept any quotas of refugees as proposed by the EU. We are also out of the Euro and have an agreement that we are excluded from ever closer Union. Mark Carney indicated at the Treasury select Committee that David Cameron had secured a good deal and as I am not well versed in the City his comments satisfied me. I do feel that by being a Member we will have an influence and I believe David Cameron has influenced many leaders and that this process will continue and indeed may become a vital part of protecting our own interests from within. If all else fails and the EU reject David Cameron's agreement I believe the UK would demand that Section 50 of the Treaty was served on the EU. As far as leaving is concerned I believe leave have to come together under one policy whether it is EEA/EFTA etc and sell that policy, as anything else would be misleading the voters. If post Brexit the voters were told free movement of labour continued there would be fury as I believe it is the abolition of free movement of labour that most leaver's (not all) want to see. I hope this has assisted in placing my position on record at the present time, but of course circumstance could change my view
Indulge me. When you look at Europe, the Europe we are being urged to stay in, what do you see? What do you think of its economy? How democratic do you think it is? What do you think is its future?
snip ... If post Brexit the voters were told free movement of labour continued there would be fury as I believe it is the abolition of free movement of labour that most leaver's (not all) want to see. ...snip...
Is it the majority view though? Or is this part of the process to paint Leavers as 'Racists'?
Mr. Wanderer, it's fair to say there's uncertainty about what happens if we leave (and, for that matter), if we stay. However, Cameron's stretching credibility beyond breaking point. Using terms like "Three million jobs at risk" is technically true. In the same way "Tens of millions of lives at risk every day" is technically true when discussing crossing the road. It's wildly misleading.
Mr. Felix, if someone promises me a cake and then uses spit instead of icing to top it off, they've kept their promise to give me a cake. That doesn't mean I'm going to be impressed by their culinary prowess.
'Are you counting the 1% of the population that is polish as british catholics or irish catholics ?'
That wiki article is fascinating. Especially the high shares of Catholics in the east of NI that identify as British rather than Irish. I wonder if this is the effect of them living in overwhelmingly Protestant areas and being 'acculturised' over time?
Indulge me. When you look at Europe, the Europe we are being urged to stay in, what do you see? What do you think of its economy? How democratic do you think it is? What do you think is its future?
snip ... If post Brexit the voters were told free movement of labour continued there would be fury as I believe it is the abolition of free movement of labour that most leaver's (not all) want to see. ...snip...
Is it the majority view though? Or is this part of the process to paint Leavers as 'Racists'?
Where is racists coming from. It is perfectly legitimate to want to control free movement
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
Bear in mind Antrim has 10x the population of Fermanagh!
Yes, hence the slight plurality for the Protestant community across NI.
Just for fun, given the Republic also had their Census in 2011, including the remaining Ulster counties of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, one gets (remember, this is just for a bit of fun!):
Catholic 50.8% Protestant 42.7% Other 1.2% None/not stated 5.4%
The whole of Ulster has only had a protestant majority in the late eighteenth century primarly due to Scots migration. Then they got bored headed off to the Appalchians and became hillbillies.
In any case your're using the wrong conuties. True Ulster includes Louth not Cavan.
Yebbut that's like saying "True Scotland" includes Berwick!
Or "True England" includes Monmouth if you prefer
As I said you didn't grow up there. :-)
Hmmm. Louth is a wee bit more Catholic, and less Protestant than Cavan.
If Conservative supporters are evenly split between LEAVE and REMAIN, but the majority of Labour voters incline towards REMAIN, then it is very clear to me how REMAIN need to argue in order to win the vote.
And yet, since this referendum is really just a bit of Tory infighting, the argument is based in Tory terms.
On the one hand, there are arguments for REMAIN because LEAVE would be bad for the bankers and hedgefunders.
In contrast, there are arguments for REMAIN because Mr Cameron has got an excellent deal, and we ("we" in the sense of the Tory government, meaning Mr Cameron) can do whatever we like, despite the EU context.
If I were a Labour supporter, which I am not, I would be strongly tempted to vote against both arguments.
But how can I, in a black/white referendum question?
And by the way, Richard, the paper you just linked to says "one of its main components is a chapter that seeks to liberalize trade and investment in financial services between Canada and the European Union".
So its actually the opposite of the Remain campaign's claim it doesn't cover financial services. It was actually a main component.
Maybe they're not lying. They could just not know what they're talking about on the basic issues.
The basic issue is that under the terms of the Canadian agreement the UK would be in a far less advantageous trading position with the EU than it is now. How is this good for the UK?
Your assessment of the basic issue is just wrong. Canada's position with respect to the EU is 95% as good as the UK's with only a handful of differences. And that's more than made up for by the fact it can sign trade deals elsewhere and not have the Eurozone make up new rules on Canada's economy at will.
That 95% figure is meaningless without knowing what the 5% is, and how the figure overall is worked out.
Indulge me. When you look at Europe, the Europe we are being urged to stay in, what do you see? What do you think of its economy? How democratic do you think it is? What do you think is its future?
I see a disaster zone and the real prospect of there being a rupture that may well result in the Balkans making their own arbitrary decisions and that Germany, and in particular Merkel, having to change their policy on the great migration exodus by closing her border and accepting that David Cameron has called this right from day one. However it will remain a market of 500 million people and I am in favour of free movement of labour in so far as it has benefited the Country and with unemployment at just over 5% it seems to have been absorbed. We control or own borders and therefore we do not need to accept any quotas of refugees as proposed by the EU. We are also out of the Euro and have an agreement that we are excluded from ever closer Union. Mark Carney indicated at the Treasury select Committee that David Cameron had secured a good deal and as I am not well versed in the City his comments satisfied me. I do feel that by being a Member we will have an influence and I believe David Cameron has influenced many leaders and that this process will continue and indeed may become a vital part of protecting our own interests from within. If all else fails and the EU reject David Cameron's agreement I believe the UK would demand that Section 50 of the Treaty was served on the EU. As far as leaving is concerned I believe leave have to come together under one policy whether it is EEA/EFTA etc and sell that policy, as anything else would be misleading the voters. If post Brexit the voters were told free movement of labour continued there would be fury as I believe it is the abolition of free movement of labour that most leaver's (not all) want to see. I hope this has assisted in placing my position on record at the present time, but of course circumstance could change my view
Indulge me. When you look at Europe, the Europe we are being urged to stay in, what do you see? What do you think of its economy? How democratic do you think it is? What do you think is its future?
snip ... If post Brexit the voters were told free movement of labour continued there would be fury as I believe it is the abolition of free movement of labour that most leaver's (not all) want to see. ...snip...
Is it the majority view though? Or is this part of the process to paint Leavers as 'Racists'?
I may have missed a bit. Who is accusing Leavers of being racist?
From the Guardian (I know) "A vote on Irish reunification should be held if Britain votes to leave the EU, Martin McGuinness has said.” He went on the suggest that If Britain left the `EU it would be in N. Irelands interests to join the Republic.
Every Proddy votes for Remain!
Nah they'll vote Leave to stick two fingers up at Marty.
Exactly DUP are campaigning for Brexit. Who are Protestants going to follow, the DUP or Martin McGuinness?
I recall at the time of the last referendum that some evangelicals I knew were against because it was the Treaty of Rome!
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
2011 religion or religion brought up in:
Protestant 48.4% Catholic 45.1% Other 0.9% None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
Bear in mind Antrim has 10x the population of Fermanagh!
Yes, hence the slight plurality for the Protestant community across NI.
Just for fun, given the Republic also had their Census in 2011, including the remaining Ulster counties of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, one gets (remember, this is just for a bit of fun!):
Catholic 50.8% Protestant 42.7% Other 1.2% None/not stated 5.4%
The whole of Ulster has only had a protestant majority in the late eighteenth century primarly due to Scots migration. Then they got bored headed off to the Appalchians and became hillbillies.
In any case your're using the wrong conuties. True Ulster includes Louth not Cavan.
Yebbut that's like saying "True Scotland" includes Berwick!
Or "True England" includes Monmouth if you prefer
As I said you didn't grow up there. :-)
Hmmm. Louth is a wee bit more Catholic, and less Protestant than Cavan.
Birthplace of my great-grandfather, James McEdara, near Carlingford in 1850. Changed his name to James Oakes when he arrived in Liverpool [sectarian ground zero] in the 1870s.
'Are you counting the 1% of the population that is polish as british catholics or irish catholics ?'
That wiki article is fascinating. Especially the high shares of Catholics in the east of NI that identify as British rather than Irish. I wonder if this is the effect of them living in overwhelmingly Protestant areas and being 'acculturised' over time?
It's a mix of everything. catholics who aren't from an Irish background, people who are fed up being labelled, people who can't see what the fuss is about, cathoilics from an irish background who think of themselves as british.
The thing that surprised me more was the % of people who have both passports. I expected it to be much higher, most people I know back home have both ( I have ).
"If post Brexit the voters were told free movement of labour continued there would be fury as I believe it is the abolition of free movement of labour that most leaver's (not all) want to" quoth someone
I think there are varying degrees of "freedom of labour", with varying levels of objection:
1. The current system where people are 'citizens of the EU' and immigrants are entitled to benefits as if they were natives 2. A system where people were free to live and work where they could choose, but who could only claim benefits after a certain qualifying period 3. A system where benefits were only available to citizens 4. A system where people could move to work, but were required to have a written job offer before arrival and could not claim benefits
And I'm sure there are additional - even more granular - distinctions you could make.
I feel that David Cameron promised 2, and has not achieved it. I am happy with 3. Charles would prefer 4.
Interesting - those national identity numbers also show why Sinn Fein have no chance of winning a border poll, now or any time in the foreseeable future,
Comments
Finance minister from UK proposes a line saying there is a risk to the UK, nobody objects, motion carried. Who Richard would you have expected to object to Osborne's request?
I think its drowning.
What are the population percentages (by religion) for N Ireland now?
If the risk to the UK is as terrible as he says, then he was irresponsible to hold a referendum. You don't offer a child sandwich fillings of cheese, ham, or razorblades and then shout at them when they ask for the razorblades you offered.
If the risk to the UK isn't as terrible as Cameron says, he's lying.
I understand why NI isn't polled in general election polls, given 100% of their MPs are "others", but it seems like it would be remiss to exclude them from a yes/no national referendum.
Corruption in government and big business has a knock on effect, making citizens less moral, a study has shown"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12189003/Britain-has-most-honest-citizens-in-the-world...-because-politicians-are-less-corrupt.html
The last polls showed a slight narrowing of the vote but the gap is huge.
http://stv.tv/news/politics/1346147-quiz-are-you-dundonian-enough-to-be-in-a-bbc-question-time-audience/
I'm not some Cameron-hating far-right chap. I've defended him quite a lot on here. But on this EU negotiation and referendum I think he's deeply unconvincing, and I've lost rather a lot of respect for him.
Protestant 48.4%
Catholic 45.1%
Other 0.9%
None/not stated 5.6%
According to my calculations (which are sometimes right!), of the historic 6 Counties, only Antrim and Down are majority Protestant (53% and 60%). Majority Catholic = Tyrone (65%), Londonderry (61%), Armagh (59%) and Fermanagh (59%)
Presumably under your logic he should also refuse to hold a General Election until Labour have got rid of Corbyn and Momentum and reformed into a central left Blairite party, given the danger they would be to the UK?
Trump 36 .. Rubio 30 .. Cruz 17 .. Kasich 6
Clinton 68 .. Sanders 23
Note Rubio...
Mr. NorthWales, I do welcome the referendum, it's the incredible utterances of Cameron that earn him my opprobrium.
Trump 42 .. Rubio 32 .. Cruz 14 .. Kasich 8
I don't want human misery - I especially don't want UK human misery. When push comes to shove, however , sometimes you have to do "the dreadful algebra of necessity".
All 4 are still odds against.
Not sure that he does really.
Just that nobody takes any notice of anything he says.
So he really doesn´t matter.
Rather like Cameron, in many ways.
If you want plain old "religion" it's:
Protestant 42%
Catholic 41%
Other 1%
Not stated/none 17%
Clinton is the Romney of this election.
Trump gives the impression he's not running for President. It's merely a tedious process that has to be gone through before he can start on the job of "making America great again" and "getting rid of ISIS", etc.
His self-belief will be contagious...
What they don't do is lie by ignorance. Lying is a conscious decision and involves knowing misrepresentation .
So in the end if a politician says something which is not true they are indeed either lying or ignorant.
In that case why should we, as the people from either side of the argument who know that what has been said is false, not make it clear that a lie has been told?
If politicians don't like being called liars then they should stop lying.
(Skim) reading Ch.13 of the agreement financial services is covered in great depth. It looks very encouraging and similar to the current EU passporting system. The issue remains, however, that Canada doesn't get to help decide the rules of the game, the game being trading in EUR-denominated instruments in Europe.
If you remember we went round the houses on this but both CETA, and EEA/EFTA means that those organisations' member states will continue to receive the rules and regs of trading EUR-denominated instruments by fax.
So a great mutual access, protection, conflict resolution agreement, yes. But Canada is still outside the room when the rules are devised.
I note a theme from @SouthamObserver: why should we swap what we have now for something less good.
In financial services, if we had a CETA-type agreement, the roof wouldn't fall in (not that GO has mended it), but we would be in a less strong position than we are now. Perhaps we would be in an equally less good position across the other industry and service sectors.
If this is the case I don't necessarily see the point of leaving to achieve that less good situation.
https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsEU/status/708212495211732992
grow up there did you :-)
the place is a damned sight more complex than proddy \ catholic.
Are you counting the 1% of the population that is polish as british catholics or irish catholics ?
The cultural aspects are better explained below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Northern_Ireland
Just for fun, given the Republic also had their Census in 2011, including the remaining Ulster counties of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, one gets (remember, this is just for a bit of fun!):
Catholic 50.8%
Protestant 42.7%
Other 1.2%
None/not stated 5.4%
In any case your're using the wrong conuties. True Ulster includes Louth not Cavan.
Indulge me. When you look at Europe, the Europe we are being urged to stay in, what do you see? What do you think of its economy? How democratic do you think it is? What do you think is its future?
I see a disaster zone and the real prospect of there being a rupture that may well result in the Balkans making their own arbitrary decisions and that Germany, and in particular Merkel, having to change their policy on the great migration exodus by closing her border and accepting that David Cameron has called this right from day one. However it will remain a market of 500 million people and I am in favour of free movement of labour in so far as it has benefited the Country and with unemployment at just over 5% it seems to have been absorbed. We control or own borders and therefore we do not need to accept any quotas of refugees as proposed by the EU. We are also out of the Euro and have an agreement that we are excluded from ever closer Union. Mark Carney indicated at the Treasury select Committee that David Cameron had secured a good deal and as I am not well versed in the City his comments satisfied me. I do feel that by being a Member we will have an influence and I believe David Cameron has influenced many leaders and that this process will continue and indeed may become a vital part of protecting our own interests from within. If all else fails and the EU reject David Cameron's agreement I believe the UK would demand that Section 50 of the Treaty was served on the EU. As far as leaving is concerned I believe leave have to come together under one policy whether it is EEA/EFTA etc and sell that policy, as anything else would be misleading the voters. If post Brexit the voters were told free movement of labour continued there would be fury as I believe it is the abolition of free movement of labour that most leaver's (not all) want to see. I hope this has assisted in placing my position on record at the present time, but of course circumstance could change my view
Or "True England" includes Monmouth if you prefer
Is it the majority view though? Or is this part of the process to paint Leavers as 'Racists'?
Mr. Felix, if someone promises me a cake and then uses spit instead of icing to top it off, they've kept their promise to give me a cake. That doesn't mean I'm going to be impressed by their culinary prowess.
That wiki article is fascinating. Especially the high shares of Catholics in the east of NI that identify as British rather than Irish. I wonder if this is the effect of them living in overwhelmingly Protestant areas and being 'acculturised' over time?
Is it the majority view though? Or is this part of the process to paint Leavers as 'Racists'?
Where is racists coming from. It is perfectly legitimate to want to control free movement
If Conservative supporters are evenly split between LEAVE and REMAIN, but the majority of Labour voters incline towards REMAIN, then it is very clear to me how REMAIN need to argue in order to win the vote.
And yet, since this referendum is really just a bit of Tory infighting, the argument is based in Tory terms.
On the one hand, there are arguments for REMAIN because LEAVE would be bad for the bankers and hedgefunders.
In contrast, there are arguments for REMAIN because Mr Cameron has got an excellent deal, and we ("we" in the sense of the Tory government, meaning Mr Cameron) can do whatever we like, despite the EU context.
If I were a Labour supporter, which I am not, I would be strongly tempted to vote against both arguments.
But how can I, in a black/white referendum question?
Here's what 38% looks like. https://t.co/pkJAgDPvNU
Trump 35 .. Cruz 25 .. Kasich 18 .. Rubio 14
Is it the majority view though? Or is this part of the process to paint Leavers as 'Racists'?
I may have missed a bit. Who is accusing Leavers of being racist?
The thing that surprised me more was the % of people who have both passports. I expected it to be much higher, most people I know back home have both ( I have ).
And even fewer after he stabbed Nick Clegg in the back, repeatedly......
I think there are varying degrees of "freedom of labour", with varying levels of objection:
1. The current system where people are 'citizens of the EU' and immigrants are entitled to benefits as if they were natives
2. A system where people were free to live and work where they could choose, but who could only claim benefits after a certain qualifying period
3. A system where benefits were only available to citizens
4. A system where people could move to work, but were required to have a written job offer before arrival and could not claim benefits
And I'm sure there are additional - even more granular - distinctions you could make.
I feel that David Cameron promised 2, and has not achieved it.
I am happy with 3.
Charles would prefer 4.