What is Boris up to? He obviously sided with Brexit to woo Tory voters but surely it's no use him now staying quiet. If he wants to sit comfortably in the back seat as we debate what for some is the biggest political issue for a generation, then surely people can only come to one conclusion - he isn't a leader.
What is Boris up to? He obviously sided with Brexit to woo Tory voters but surely it's no use him now staying quiet. If he wants to sit comfortably in the back seat as we debate what for some is the biggest political issue for a generation, then surely people can only come to one conclusion - he isn't a leader.
For either side to win there is a substantial pool of uncommitted voters to be persuaded but my instinct tells me that if leave cannot provide a coherent message of how the treaties would be re-negotiated, the time involved, and especially the question of free movement of labour, remain will win as the safe default choice.
Which REMAIN, is it the Nick Clegg "sign any bit of crap the EU send us and join the Euro as fast as we can" remain. The Cameron "i'll just go along with the chaps so I get invited to the nice dinners" remain, the Corbyn "I can't stand this corporatist racket but the party will string me up by my balls if I vote Leave" sort of remain. I think the public should be told what sort of remain they are going to get... and will it be the same next year, or in 2021 ?
You have not addressed my point but launched an attack on remain. Please provide an answer to my question of free movement of labour once we have left
No. I am not going over it again. Me, Mr Tyndall and several others have go over this quite enough over the past week. Enough.
I'm quite surprised anyone is suggesting it all too late for Leave blah blah. We've 113 days to go.
I'd be astonished if more than 30% of voters have thought about it much if at all yet.
When we're four weeks out, everyone else may start paying attention - but surely it's the final two or three when most will tune in.
Remain has rather gone off like the Oban fireworks display - fired off everything in the first moments, including the collected firepower of Two Guys From Brussels two hundred "leading" business men. What else has Remain got for the next 113 days - except ever more risible Fear-mongering?
Facking Hell. Michael Fallon really has gone after Sadiq Khan
A senior Cabinet minister today launched an unprecedented attack on mayoral candidate Sadiq Khan, calling him a “Labour lackey who speaks alongside extremists”.
Defence Secretary Michael Fallon claimed the Labour candidate was “unfit” to be London’s Mayor because he had shared platforms with extreme radicals.
He lambasted Mr Khan as “a man who has said Britain’s foreign policy is to blame for the terrorist threat”. Mr Khan’s office hit back by accusing the minister of “demeaning” his office by making an attack “on mainstream Muslims like Sadiq”.
Utter stupidity for anyone campaigning for votes in London.
Is it? Most people who don't get the bus use cabs or minicabs. I'd be surprised if there is a huge Uber demographic. The slightly odd, and perhaps clever, thing is that you'd expect cab drivers to vote Tory in normal circumstances.
You clearly don't know much about Uber. It is incredibly popular (both in terms of number of users and also experience of the product).
Andrew Neil @afneil 2h Peter Mandleson says British EU car exports could face 20% tariff without single market agreement. But average WTO tariff in goods is 3/4%.
Project Fear is Project Bollocks.
They can't help themselves, nobody is free from blame. I once asked an MP if he and his colleagues lied to each other the same way they lied to the electorate. He just laughed and shrugged. The problem lies with the interviewers, only Neil has the bollox to pull them.
Read this blog and how sycophants repeat the lies, I'd love to know when it all started and why.
Andrew Neil @afneil 2h Peter Mandleson says British EU car exports could face 20% tariff without single market agreement. But average WTO tariff in goods is 3/4%.
Project Fear is Project Bollocks.
Very stupid from Mandelson. But it does put into context claims about the effectiveness of tariffs on German, French, Spanish, Italian and Czech car imports if the EU does not play ball during Brexit negotiations.
For either side to win there is a substantial pool of uncommitted voters to be persuaded but my instinct tells me that if leave cannot provide a coherent message of how the treaties would be re-negotiated, the time involved, and especially the question of free movement of labour, remain will win as the safe default choice.
Which REMAIN, is it the Nick Clegg "sign any bit of crap the EU send us and join the Euro as fast as we can" remain. The Cameron "i'll just go along with the chaps so I get invited to the nice dinners" remain, the Corbyn "I can't stand this corporatist racket but the party will string me up by my balls if I vote Leave" sort of remain. I think the public should be told what sort of remain they are going to get... and will it be the same next year, or in 2021 ?
You have not addressed my point but launched an attack on remain. Please provide an answer to my question of free movement of labour once we have left
No. I am not going over it again. Me, Mr Tyndall and several others have go over this quite enough over the past week. Enough.
I want to be persuaded as I dislike the EU intensely but a simple refusal to provide the answer is not helpful and indicates a real problem with your arguments
I'm quite surprised anyone is suggesting it all too late for Leave blah blah. We've 113 days to go.
I'd be astonished if more than 30% of voters have thought about it much if at all yet.
When we're four weeks out, everyone else may start paying attention - but surely it's the final two or three when most will tune in.
Remain has rather gone off like the Oban fireworks display - fired off everything in the first moments, including the collected firepower of Two Guys From Brussels two hundred "leading" business men. What else has Remain got for the next 113 days - except ever more risible Fear-mongering?
I'm quite surprised anyone is suggesting it all too late for Leave blah blah. We've 113 days to go.
I'd be astonished if more than 30% of voters have thought about it much if at all yet.
When we're four weeks out, everyone else may start paying attention - but surely it's the final two or three when most will tune in.
Remain has rather gone off like the Oban fireworks display - fired off everything in the first moments, including the collected firepower of Two Guys From Brussels two hundred "leading" business men. What else has Remain got for the next 113 days - except ever more risible Fear-mongering?
What is Boris up to? He obviously sided with Brexit to woo Tory voters but surely it's no use him now staying quiet. If he wants to sit comfortably in the back seat as we debate what for some is the biggest political issue for a generation, then surely people can only come to one conclusion - he isn't a leader.
He is trying to keep the fence post up his @rse. So far he has put a couple of toes down on one side and got them rudely trodden on. I think he hopes he can sit at the back of Leave and then if it looks like losing, gently row in behind Remain and hope no one notices. He is unprincipled as ... well, as a politician.
Yeah but most politicians aren't as naked as this! But perhaps of greater importance is his lack of leadership credentials. He's either a flip-flopper or a follower. Remember what happened to John Kerry over Iraq? If he can't take a position and stick to it he looks feeble. As does his refusal to take a lead. If Leave wins then he fails to get the credit by having been quiet and if remain wins won't all those Tories who'll be feeling very bitter be rather angry with someone who didn't give his all for the cause?
Andrew Neil @afneil 2h Peter Mandleson says British EU car exports could face 20% tariff without single market agreement. But average WTO tariff in goods is 3/4%.
Project Fear is Project Bollocks.
They can't help themselves, nobody is free from blame. I once asked an MP if he and his colleagues lied to each other the same way they lied to the electorate. He just laughed and shrugged. The problem lies with the interviewers, only Neil has the bollox to pull them.
Read this blog and how sycophants repeat the lies, I'd love to know when it all started and why.
If being honest got politicians votes, politicians would be honest.
Most people say they want honesty but then punish those who tell them things they don't want to hear.
Facking Hell. Michael Fallon really has gone after Sadiq Khan
A senior Cabinet minister today launched an unprecedented attack on mayoral candidate Sadiq Khan, calling him a “Labour lackey who speaks alongside extremists”.
Defence Secretary Michael Fallon claimed the Labour candidate was “unfit” to be London’s Mayor because he had shared platforms with extreme radicals.
He lambasted Mr Khan as “a man who has said Britain’s foreign policy is to blame for the terrorist threat”. Mr Khan’s office hit back by accusing the minister of “demeaning” his office by making an attack “on mainstream Muslims like Sadiq”.
Utter stupidity for anyone campaigning for votes in London.
Is it? Most people who don't get the bus use cabs or minicabs. I'd be surprised if there is a huge Uber demographic. The slightly odd, and perhaps clever, thing is that you'd expect cab drivers to vote Tory in normal circumstances.
I am rather out of touch with London cab drivers, but is there some sort of ethnic dog-whistle going on here? Certainly in the last two cities I lived in the taxi trade was heavily dominated by East Asians.
I'm quite surprised anyone is suggesting it all too late for Leave blah blah. We've 113 days to go.
I'd be astonished if more than 30% of voters have thought about it much if at all yet.
When we're four weeks out, everyone else may start paying attention - but surely it's the final two or three when most will tune in.
Remain has rather gone off like the Oban fireworks display - fired off everything in the first moments, including the collected firepower of Two Guys From Brussels two hundred "leading" business men. What else has Remain got for the next 113 days - except ever more risible Fear-mongering?
I'm quite surprised anyone is suggesting it all too late for Leave blah blah. We've 113 days to go.
I'd be astonished if more than 30% of voters have thought about it much if at all yet.
When we're four weeks out, everyone else may start paying attention - but surely it's the final two or three when most will tune in.
Remain has rather gone off like the Oban fireworks display - fired off everything in the first moments, including the collected firepower of Two Guys From Brussels two hundred "leading" business men. What else has Remain got for the next 113 days - except ever more risible Fear-mongering?
Facking Hell. Michael Fallon really has gone after Sadiq Khan
A senior Cabinet minister today launched an unprecedented attack on mayoral candidate Sadiq Khan, calling him a “Labour lackey who speaks alongside extremists”.
Defence Secretary Michael Fallon claimed the Labour candidate was “unfit” to be London’s Mayor because he had shared platforms with extreme radicals.
He lambasted Mr Khan as “a man who has said Britain’s foreign policy is to blame for the terrorist threat”. Mr Khan’s office hit back by accusing the minister of “demeaning” his office by making an attack “on mainstream Muslims like Sadiq”.
Utter stupidity for anyone campaigning for votes in London.
Is it? Most people who don't get the bus use cabs or minicabs. I'd be surprised if there is a huge Uber demographic. The slightly odd, and perhaps clever, thing is that you'd expect cab drivers to vote Tory in normal circumstances.
I am rather out of touch with London cab drivers, but is there some sort of ethnic dog-whistle going on here? Certainly in the last two cities I lived in the taxi trade was heavily dominated by East Asians.
Not really. If there is an ethnic divide it is more likely between black cabs and minicabs who are on the same side of the Uber argument. Even then it would probably depend where you looked as minicab drivers in particular tend to reflect their locality.
I'm quite surprised anyone is suggesting it all too late for Leave blah blah. We've 113 days to go.
I'd be astonished if more than 30% of voters have thought about it much if at all yet.
When we're four weeks out, everyone else may start paying attention - but surely it's the final two or three when most will tune in.
Remain has rather gone off like the Oban fireworks display - fired off everything in the first moments, including the collected firepower of Two Guys From Brussels two hundred "leading" business men. What else has Remain got for the next 113 days - except ever more risible Fear-mongering?
Facking Hell. Michael Fallon really has gone after Sadiq Khan
A senior Cabinet minister today launched an unprecedented attack on mayoral candidate Sadiq Khan, calling him a “Labour lackey who speaks alongside extremists”.
Defence Secretary Michael Fallon claimed the Labour candidate was “unfit” to be London’s Mayor because he had shared platforms with extreme radicals.
He lambasted Mr Khan as “a man who has said Britain’s foreign policy is to blame for the terrorist threat”. Mr Khan’s office hit back by accusing the minister of “demeaning” his office by making an attack “on mainstream Muslims like Sadiq”.
Utter stupidity for anyone campaigning for votes in London.
Is it? Most people who don't get the bus use cabs or minicabs. I'd be surprised if there is a huge Uber demographic. The slightly odd, and perhaps clever, thing is that you'd expect cab drivers to vote Tory in normal circumstances.
You clearly don't know much about Uber. It is incredibly popular (both in terms of number of users and also experience of the product).
You are right. I don't. But I do get cabs (and buses and tubes) almost every day, and I'd say Uber is still a small fraction, whatever the merits of the service.
I'm quite surprised anyone is suggesting it all too late for Leave blah blah. We've 113 days to go.
I'd be astonished if more than 30% of voters have thought about it much if at all yet.
When we're four weeks out, everyone else may start paying attention - but surely it's the final two or three when most will tune in.
Remain has rather gone off like the Oban fireworks display - fired off everything in the first moments, including the collected firepower of Two Guys From Brussels two hundred "leading" business men. What else has Remain got for the next 113 days - except ever more risible Fear-mongering?
Even as David Cameron was proclaiming a ‘special status’ for Britain, it emerged that Angela Merkel had told fellow EU leaders, ‘On the question of amending the treaties, we do not know if we ever will have to change them’.
François Hollande went further and in public: ‘No revision of the treaties is planned’. Just in case there was any doubt, his foreign minister, Jean-Marc Ayrault, spelt it out: ‘There will be no treaty revision, there is no UK veto, there is no calling into question of the principle of free movement.’
I'm quite surprised anyone is suggesting it all too late for Leave blah blah. We've 113 days to go.
I'd be astonished if more than 30% of voters have thought about it much if at all yet.
When we're four weeks out, everyone else may start paying attention - but surely it's the final two or three when most will tune in.
Remain has rather gone off like the Oban fireworks display - fired off everything in the first moments, including the collected firepower of Two Guys From Brussels two hundred "leading" business men. What else has Remain got for the next 113 days - except ever more risible Fear-mongering?
It’s more about the police, isn’t it, that the late JJT. What was the conversation here recently about now many things were more open, the “middle class” were realising what the “working class” had known for years; the police are not to be trusted.
It’s more about the police, isn’t it, that the late JJT. What was the conversation here recently about now many things were more open, the “middle class” were realising what the “working class” had known for years; the police are not to be trusted.
There can't have been many trials where a defendant exercised a right to remain silent.
O/T Jury out in Adam Johnson case. Judge told them he will not accept a majority verdict. Also said that they must not assume he’s gulty because he lied.
I used Uber when I was in San Francisco a couple of weeks ago until I discovered that it is actually now cheaper to use cabs. Only used it once in London and it seemed to be a bit more expensive than using a minicab, but cheaper than a black cab.
I see the Mirror has run quite a big story to the effect that 20 Tory MPs failed to fully declare their election expenses and that legal limits have been exceeded. Where does this go from here? A complaint to the police? If so, who can make such a complaint ? Does it have to be a constituent?
It’s more about the police, isn’t it, that the late JJT. What was the conversation here recently about now many things were more open, the “middle class” were realising what the “working class” had known for years; the police are not to be trusted.
There can't have been many trials where a defendant exercised a right to remain silent.
I used Uber when I was in San Francisco a couple of weeks ago until I discovered that it is actually now cheaper to use cabs. Only used it once in London and it seemed to be a bit more expensive than using a minicab, but cheaper than a black cab.
Price depends on supply / demand, where as "licences" cabs have regulated fares. So it is difficult to make one off comparisons.
I'm quite surprised anyone is suggesting it all too late for Leave blah blah. We've 113 days to go.
I'd be astonished if more than 30% of voters have thought about it much if at all yet.
When we're four weeks out, everyone else may start paying attention - but surely it's the final two or three when most will tune in.
Remain has rather gone off like the Oban fireworks display - fired off everything in the first moments, including the collected firepower of Two Guys From Brussels two hundred "leading" business men. What else has Remain got for the next 113 days - except ever more risible Fear-mongering?
It’s more about the police, isn’t it, that the late JJT. What was the conversation here recently about now many things were more open, the “middle class” were realising what the “working class” had known for years; the police are not to be trusted.
Anyone else watch Panorama last night?
Yes. It showed what a good programme Panorama can be, when it is given the hour slot. It was very interesting. Also, I think we can join the dots of other "high level crime syndicates", Hatton Garden raid, GoldFinger Palmer etc etc etc..
Once you've come up with your horror stories, where do you go next?
You repeat them, incessantly, for four months, until voters notice or get so confused that they decide Leave is too risky.
Is that what you're doing?
Hardly honest.
I'm not campaigning.
I've no idea why people here can't understand the difference between commenting on the politics, and taking part in it. You see it very clearly with the attacks on Alastair, as well as me.
Still, it's good news in a way, because if people were rational, how could I make money from political betting?
Dan Hannan Guess which country is most often outvoted in the EU. No, go on, guess. https://t.co/yISoi3kaeI
We have no influence now. Just look at this, we're not on the same page.
So Britain is on the same page as the European majority a little under 90% of the time. Other Europeans agree with the majority around 94% of the time or more. The average level of agreement is strikingly high.
Have to say this sort of chimes with what I would expect, that we are a bit more different than many other EU members, but not so disastrously out of step that this bar chart makes any kind of unambiguous case for leave.
Also, given this is specifically the Council this 88% may not be the final figure for how much EU legislation passed that the UK is happy with. Given the heads of government are likely only to be bothered with the more contentious and strategic stuff anyway, that 88% could well underestimate a true level of HMG agreement with Europe.
O/T Jury out in Adam Johnson case. Judge told them he will not accept a majority verdict. Also said that they must not assume he’s gulty because he lied.
I see the Mirror has run quite a big story to the effect that 20 Tory MPs failed to fully declare their election expenses and that legal limits have been exceeded. Where does this go from here? A complaint to the police? If so, who can make such a complaint ? Does it have to be a constituent?
Their "big story" is just a rehash of a Staines story, and it seems they were basically stretching the elastic. Ship in "RoadTrip", feed and water them later in a different constituency, claim that is where the expense was incurred.
I think it has far less weight than the Crick stuff, where Tory workers were stationed for weeks on end in hotels in the constituency.
I see the Mirror has run quite a big story to the effect that 20 Tory MPs failed to fully declare their election expenses and that legal limits have been exceeded. Where does this go from here? A complaint to the police? If so, who can make such a complaint ? Does it have to be a constituent?
Looks to be expenses held at ccHQ. Reports are that these are outside the time period that an investigation could be held by the Electoral Commission. Shame if true as it is just plain wrong and needs to be pursued.
O/T Jury out in Adam Johnson case. Judge told them he will not accept a majority verdict. Also said that they must not assume he’s gulty because he lied.
I see the Mirror has run quite a big story to the effect that 20 Tory MPs failed to fully declare their election expenses and that legal limits have been exceeded. Where does this go from here? A complaint to the police? If so, who can make such a complaint ? Does it have to be a constituent?
Yes, I mentioned this last night, and I was interviewed for the story (and again today on Radio Nottingham). It's a matter for the police and CPS, if someone chooses to make a complaint (as presumably they will). The Electoral Commission has said that national efforts directly related to particular constituency campaigns should be declared locally, so the issue is whether the all-expenses paid battle bus that visited marginals, with hotels etc. paid centrally, broke the rules. The Mirror has ample evidence that the bus passengers said they were there helping named local candidates, so there's a prima facie case that they were aware that it was part of a series of constituency efforts rather than a bus touring around randomly in the national cause.
The Fiona Jones case is the obvious precedent - that proved a slow burner that ultimately led to her resignation though also to ultimate reinstatement. At one extreme it could force 30 by-elections, at least temporarily destroying the Government's majority, at the other, the police and CPS could say meh, political parties do these things, and nothing will happen. It's part of the wider issue of how far central parties can go in getting round the constituency spending limits - the dispatch of letters from the centre that happen to go to marginals, as well as central phone canvassing that happens to be of marginals, are other examples. All parties do this to some extent but the all-expenses-paid battle bus certainly pushed the margin.
@sean_F Tom Sharpe worked this into Ancestral Vices:
"In short you are telling me to thorpe,’ said Emmelia. The Judge was scandalized. 1 would remind you that Mr Thorpe was an innocent man,’ he said sternly. ‘Whereas I am not an innocent woman. I am a foolish and—’ ‘That is not for you to say,’ interrupted the Judge hurriedly. ‘It is for the prosecution to prove to the satisfaction of the jury."
The Thorpe trial also inspired Rex Barker & The Ricochets to produce one of the worst selling singles in the UK - Jeremy Is Innocent.
I see the Mirror has run quite a big story to the effect that 20 Tory MPs failed to fully declare their election expenses and that legal limits have been exceeded. Where does this go from here? A complaint to the police? If so, who can make such a complaint ? Does it have to be a constituent?
Looks to be expenses held at ccHQ. Reports are that these are outside the time period that an investigation could be held by the Electoral Commission. Shame if true as it is just plain wrong and needs to be pursued.
I believe there is a 12 month limit on reporting the matter to the police. In the case of the Newark by-election the relevant date had come and gone - but there are still more than 2 months left before that point is reached re May 2015. I am simply keen to know who is able to make the complaint to the police. Can anybody do it- or is it restricted to a constituent of the MP concerned?
Once you've come up with your horror stories, where do you go next?
You repeat them, incessantly, for four months, until voters notice or get so confused that they decide Leave is too risky.
Is that what you're doing?
Hardly honest.
I don't think REMAIN is overly bothered about honesty. Ze ends justify ze means and all that.
That's even more true of the Leave side, though, in particular on the EU migrant crisis.
Welcome to politics.
Surely there is no need to say anything about that. It is being broadcast live and in colour into voters sitting rooms every day as it is, and for next to no extra cost!
Tory bastards: check Lord North: check Flashman: check Gerrymandering: check
Polly Toynbee is phoning it in today. But if she is right that Labour is on the point of withdrawing all cooperation in Parliament, we could be in for a gruelling time for MPs as a class.
For either side to win there is a substantial pool of uncommitted voters to be persuaded but my instinct tells me that if leave cannot provide a coherent message of how the treaties would be re-negotiated, the time involved, and especially the question of free movement of labour, remain will win as the safe default choice.
Which REMAIN, is it the Nick Clegg "sign any bit of crap the EU send us and join the Euro as fast as we can" remain. The Cameron "i'll just go along with the chaps so I get invited to the nice dinners" remain, the Corbyn "I can't stand this corporatist racket but the party will string me up by my balls if I vote Leave" sort of remain. I think the public should be told what sort of remain they are going to get... and will it be the same next year, or in 2021 ?
You have not addressed my point but launched an attack on remain. Please provide an answer to my question of free movement of labour once we have left
No. I am not going over it again. Me, Mr Tyndall and several others have go over this quite enough over the past week. Enough.
I want to be persuaded as I dislike the EU intensely but a simple refusal to provide the answer is not helpful and indicates a real problem with your arguments
All we can do is tell you what our preferences are. As I have said many times before on here I favour EFTA membership which maintains our membership of the EEA. In this case free movement under the current rules is both implicit and explicit.
But as others have said it is not a question I can answer with any certainty as it won't be my decision. The person you should really be addressing this question to is David Cameron.
Indeed it would be fun to put him on the spot and get him to make it explicit which route he would choose after Brexit. He is the only person at the moment who can actually get anywhere near making that decision.
What is Boris up to? He obviously sided with Brexit to woo Tory voters but surely it's no use him now staying quiet. If he wants to sit comfortably in the back seat as we debate what for some is the biggest political issue for a generation, then surely people can only come to one conclusion - he isn't a leader.
He is trying to keep the fence post up his @rse. So far he has put a couple of toes down on one side and got them rudely trodden on. I think he hopes he can sit at the back of Leave and then if it looks like losing, gently row in behind Remain and hope no one notices. He is unprincipled as ... well, as a politician.
It's part of the wider issue of how far central parties can go in getting round the constituency spending limits - the dispatch of letters from the centre that happen to go to marginals, as well as central phone canvassing that happens to be of marginals, are other examples. All parties do this to some extent but the all-expenses-paid battle bus certainly pushed the margin.
I prefer EFTA when pushed - but something else is more appealing. I don't like free movement in its present guise or what it will expose us to over the next decade or so.
For either side to win there is a substantial pool of uncommitted voters to be persuaded but my instinct tells me that if leave cannot provide a coherent message of how the treaties would be re-negotiated, the time involved, and especially the question of free movement of labour, remain will win as the safe default choice.
Which REMAIN, is it the Nick Clegg "sign any bit of crap the EU send us and join the Euro as fast as we can" remain. The Cameron "i'll just go along with the chaps so I get invited to the nice dinners" remain, the Corbyn "I can't stand this corporatist racket but the party will string me up by my balls if I vote Leave" sort of remain. I think the public should be told what sort of remain they are going to get... and will it be the same next year, or in 2021 ?
You have not addressed my point but launched an attack on remain. Please provide an answer to my question of free movement of labour once we have left
No. I am not going over it again. Me, Mr Tyndall and several others have go over this quite enough over the past week. Enough.
I want to be persuaded as I dislike the EU intensely but a simple refusal to provide the answer is not helpful and indicates a real problem with your arguments
All we can do is tell you what our preferences are. As I have said many times before on here I favour EFTA membership which maintains our membership of the EEA. In this case free movement under the current rules is both implicit and explicit.
But as others have said it is not a question I can answer with any certainty as it won't be my decision. The person you should really be addressing this question to is David Cameron.
Indeed it would be fun to put him on the spot and get him to make it explicit which route he would choose after Brexit. He is the only person at the moment who can actually get anywhere near making that decision.
But as others have said it is not a question I can answer with any certainty as it won't be my decision. The person you should really be addressing this question to is David Cameron.
Indeed it would be fun to put him on the spot and get him to make it explicit which route he would choose after Brexit. He is the only person at the moment who can actually get anywhere near making that decision.
If it's Brexit then I assume Cameron would choose the same route as every other resigning Prime Minister has done in the past when travelling from Downing Street to Buckingham Palace? His opinions on what Britain should after Brexit would be entirely moot
But as others have said it is not a question I can answer with any certainty as it won't be my decision. The person you should really be addressing this question to is David Cameron.
Indeed it would be fun to put him on the spot and get him to make it explicit which route he would choose after Brexit. He is the only person at the moment who can actually get anywhere near making that decision.
If it's Brexit then I assume Cameron would choose the same route as every other resigning Prime Minister has done in the past when travelling from Downing Street to Buckingham Palace? His opinions on what Britain should after Brexit would be entirely moot
I do not see why, although he might. But why should he do anything that would drop the Tory part right in it. He is going to retire anyway. I fail to see why any PM who has given a referendum should resign if his option has failed. It is no different to losing a vote in parliament indeed not as bad as a referendum is generally called on cross party matters. Would leaders of other parties resign if say the Remain option they support failed. Trouble is with too many they want to make it an issue of Cameron and not what is best for the country. We see more easy sneering at Cameron and less realism about what Leave really means. Some do not like a centrist Tory party even if it's wins elections, they want to revert to loopy rightist policies. Corbynitis is catching.
I'm pretty much agnostic (and non resident). However, you could equally make a similarly vague set of mutually exclusive outcomes of what the EU will be like in 5 years time, could you not? Whether the leave campaign can make this point successfully is another matter of course.
I think this is a good article from Alistair. Many of us, as DavidL has pointed out, have been making similar points even if we may not vote in the same way as Mr M.
I do not want to tread on Mr M's toes but would be happy to pen a thread on some of the similar issues the Remain campaign has, if that would be of interest.
I prefer EFTA when pushed - but something else is more appealing. I don't like free movement in its present guise or what it will expose us to over the next decade or so.
For either side to win there is a substantial pool of uncommitted voters to be persuaded but my instinct tells me that if leave cannot provide a coherent message of how the treaties would be re-negotiated, the time involved, and especially the question of free movement of labour, remain will win as the safe default choice.
Which REMAIN, is it the Nick Clegg "sign any bit of crap the EU send us and join the Euro as fast as we can" remain. The Cameron "i'll just go along with the chaps so I get invited to the nice dinners" remain, the Corbyn "I can't stand this corporatist racket but the party will string me up by my balls if I vote Leave" sort of remain. I think the public should be told what sort of remain they are going to get... and will it be the same next year, or in 2021 ?
You have not addressed my point but launched an attack on remain. Please provide an answer to my question of free movement of labour once we have left
No. I am not going over it again. Me, Mr Tyndall and several others have go over this quite enough over the past week. Enough.
I want to be persuaded as I dislike the EU intensely but a simple refusal to provide the answer is not helpful and indicates a real problem with your arguments
All we can do is tell you what our preferences are. As I have said many times before on here I favour EFTA membership which maintains our membership of the EEA. In this case free movement under the current rules is both implicit and explicit.
But as others have said it is not a question I can answer with any certainty as it won't be my decision. The person you should really be addressing this question to is David Cameron.
Indeed it would be fun to put him on the spot and get him to make it explicit which route he would choose after Brexit. He is the only person at the moment who can actually get anywhere near making that decision.
The issue is not that we expect all Leavers to back the same version collectively, that is clearly unrealistic, rather that the major Leavers individually should be clear on their own opinion of what leave looks like (boils down to Norway/Canada for me) and have some ideas on the roadmap to get there. Yes, Cameron may end up doing the enactment, although so could Gove, but it would be helpful to know the loudest Leavers have a least a concept of what their Leave actually means in practice.
Another anti-leave post on PB predicting the demise of the Leave campaign when it's 50/50 in the polls and the official campaigning hasn't even begun. Ha ha ha.
If political posts like the one by Mr Meeks are being allowed, when will we have a post pointing out the huge flaws in the Remain campaign and their arguments?
...I fail to see why any PM who has given a referendum should resign if his option has failed...
A Mason Verger premiership.[1] Once castrated by the Eurosceptics they will let him stay in place for a few months/years. There's nothing the Party likes more than a mutilated enemy: it entertains the children and they're so much fun when they cry...
(Mason Verger was the man that Hannibal Lecter persuaded to cut off his own face. As Hannibal later said "No Mason, I think I like you just the way you are...")
Comments
Was it my imagination or were tourists abroad threatened with not being allowed back into the UK after June 23rd too?
It's all so absurd, I'm having real trouble working out what's parody.
It really riles me up when people talk Britain down, and mock the idea it could be successful outside.
It could have been written by Mandelson.
Read this blog and how sycophants repeat the lies, I'd love to know when it all started and why.
Once you've come up with your horror stories, where do you go next?
Most people say they want honesty but then punish those who tell them things they don't want to hear.
Guess I better cancel my holiday to Thailand, then.
What a nitwit.
Ken Livingstone says he and Corbyn can tell Labour MPs not to rebel now b/c: "Go back + look at our rebellions. It turns out we were right."
Innocent face.
EDIT: They've used up the EU, the G20, the 200 business leaders, Kerry and Obama.
Oh of course...they still have Bono in reserve!
LEAVE.EU is rapidly approaching 600,000 registered supporters.
Here you go, from yesterday:
"British tourists could be left stranded abroad if voters choose to quit the EU, ministers warned today"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3468878/Brexit-destabilise-Britain-DECADE-uncertainty-jobs-banks-health-farming-Government-claims-official-report.html#ixzz41eWzex2O
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyos-M48B8U
Then it did inspire Peter Cook to write this wonderful skit...self confessed chicken strangler...
Hmmm.
Hardly honest.
Here you go, from yesterday:
"British tourists could be left stranded abroad if voters choose to quit the EU, ministers warned today"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3468878/Brexit-destabilise-Britain-DECADE-uncertainty-jobs-banks-health-farming-Government-claims-official-report.html#ixzz41eWzex2O
Ze ends justify ze means and all that.
Judge will only accept a unanimous verdict in the Adam Johnson child-sex case. "The only score is 12-0" says Judge Jonathan Rose.
I've no idea why people here can't understand the difference between commenting on the politics, and taking part in it. You see it very clearly with the attacks on Alastair, as well as me.
Still, it's good news in a way, because if people were rational, how could I make money from political betting?
Have to say this sort of chimes with what I would expect, that we are a bit more different than many other EU members, but not so disastrously out of step that this bar chart makes any kind of unambiguous case for leave.
Also, given this is specifically the Council this 88% may not be the final figure for how much EU legislation passed that the UK is happy with. Given the heads of government are likely only to be bothered with the more contentious and strategic stuff anyway, that 88% could well underestimate a true level of HMG agreement with Europe.
Welcome to politics.
I think it has far less weight than the Crick stuff, where Tory workers were stationed for weeks on end in hotels in the constituency.
The Fiona Jones case is the obvious precedent - that proved a slow burner that ultimately led to her resignation though also to ultimate reinstatement. At one extreme it could force 30 by-elections, at least temporarily destroying the Government's majority, at the other, the police and CPS could say meh, political parties do these things, and nothing will happen. It's part of the wider issue of how far central parties can go in getting round the constituency spending limits - the dispatch of letters from the centre that happen to go to marginals, as well as central phone canvassing that happens to be of marginals, are other examples. All parties do this to some extent but the all-expenses-paid battle bus certainly pushed the margin.
"In short you are telling me to thorpe,’ said Emmelia.
The Judge was scandalized. 1 would remind you that Mr Thorpe was an innocent man,’ he said sternly.
‘Whereas I am not an innocent woman. I am a foolish and—’
‘That is not for you to say,’ interrupted the Judge hurriedly. ‘It is for the prosecution to prove to the satisfaction of the jury."
The Thorpe trial also inspired Rex Barker & The Ricochets to produce one of the worst selling singles in the UK - Jeremy Is Innocent.
Tory bastards: check
Lord North: check
Flashman: check
Gerrymandering: check
Polly Toynbee is phoning it in today. But if she is right that Labour is on the point of withdrawing all cooperation in Parliament, we could be in for a gruelling time for MPs as a class.
Osborne to McDonnell: Labour is being advised by Varoufakis/Paul Mason as "chairman Mao is dead and Mickey Mouse is busy"
But as others have said it is not a question I can answer with any certainty as it won't be my decision. The person you should really be addressing this question to is David Cameron.
Indeed it would be fun to put him on the spot and get him to make it explicit which route he would choose after Brexit. He is the only person at the moment who can actually get anywhere near making that decision.
I prefer EFTA when pushed - but something else is more appealing. I don't like free movement in its present guise or what it will expose us to over the next decade or so.
New Thread New Thread
I think this is a good article from Alistair. Many of us, as DavidL has pointed out, have been making similar points even if we may not vote in the same way as Mr M.
I do not want to tread on Mr M's toes but would be happy to pen a thread on some of the similar issues the Remain campaign has, if that would be of interest.
If political posts like the one by Mr Meeks are being allowed, when will we have a post pointing out the huge flaws in the Remain campaign and their arguments?
(Mason Verger was the man that Hannibal Lecter persuaded to cut off his own face. As Hannibal later said "No Mason, I think I like you just the way you are...")