Did they only phone those in the phone book with the surname Farage?
?? It's a huge Remain lead. I do despair of the British people sometimes. The proles are obviously absurdly grateful to Cameron for championing our right to donate money to Polish kids (in Poland) at THE LOCAL RATE.
We are a demoralised nation.
This evening I asked my older daughter's babymother (soft left-centre, but prone to quite right wing thoughts) how she was gonna vote. She said she hadn't decided, she was deeply torn, but she felt sorry for David Cameron, having to sell that terrible deal.
She is a smart woman (First Class Degree in English) and knows Cameron brought it all on himself. But she will very likely vote IN, partly out of empathy for Cameron.
If people like her are persuaded to REMAIN by DC, then I think it's over. The best bet for eurosceptics is to take revenge on the Tory Remainians after the vote, usurp the Tory machine a la Jeremy Corbyn, and turn the party into a very serious vehicle for euroscepticism, in preparation for another vote, ten years down the line.
That's the path to ultimate victory. And it will have been laid by DC. Once you have one referendum, having another seems much more reasonable.
We have already had one referendum on the EU/EEC, in 1975, this will be the second and a 15% lead for In would kill the issue for good (though personally I expect it to be very close, this is just the post-deal bounce for Remain)
Did they only phone those in the phone book with the surname Farage?
?? It's a huge Remain lead. I do despair of the British people sometimes. The proles are obviously absurdly grateful to Cameron for championing our right to donate money to Polish kids (in Poland) at THE LOCAL RATE.
We are a demoralised nation.
This evening I asked my older daughter's babymother (soft left-centre, but prone to quite right wing thoughts) how she was gonna vote. She said she hadn't decided, she was deeply torn, but she felt sorry for David Cameron, having to sell that terrible deal.
She is a smart woman (First Class Degree in English) and knows Cameron brought it all on himself. But she will very likely vote IN, partly out of empathy for Cameron.
If people like her are persuaded to REMAIN by DC, then I think it's over. The best bet for eurosceptics is to take revenge on the Tory Remainians after the vote, usurp the Tory machine a la Jeremy Corbyn, and turn the party into a very serious vehicle for euroscepticism, in preparation for another vote, ten years down the line.
That's the path to ultimate victory. And it will have been laid by DC. Once you have one referendum, having another seems much more reasonable.
Strangely enough that anecdote has not cheered me up very much.
The Sanders counties near to 100% counted, Clark still only a third. Looks a comfortable Hillary win.
So not even tying nationally, in all likelihood. Why do they continue to let us down over there? I mean, Hilary may well be the best of a bad bunch, but they could make her sweat more for it.
BTW Mr Tyndall I've only just heard within the last hour my Norweigan resident brother in law tell me that 'we are not in the EU but we do all they tell us'. I'll grant you some modest hyperbole.
Fortunately your Norwegian Brother in Law is wrong. But then whether it is Norway, the UK, France or Outer Mongolia there is usually a big divide between public perceptions and reality.
It's a sod, the public having a vote.
Not at all. It just means we have to persuade them. Of course in the case of Norway the Government dearly wishes the public didn't have the vote because every time they ask the EU question they get beaten.
The Norweigan people keep voting in governments that apply EU regulations and edicts even though they are not in the EU. Norway, not in the EU, has had to act despite being in Schengen to bring in controls to halt Syrian immigrants. But only at the moment for 20 days. This is because EU Sweden chose to bring in border controls. Non EU Norway has had thousands of Syrian immigrants. In recent times some 29,000 asylum seekers have entered Norway. Russia as not been helpful.
Actually I agree with almost everything you say there but don't quite get your point.
Norway as a country is rather like me as a person as far as the questions of the EU and immigration go. Anti-EU, pro moderate immigration. Whilst I dislike many things about Norway their amazing ability to integrate and nationalise immigrants is enviable and one I wish we could achieve. One of the strange things about the Anders Brevik thing was his claims about the evils of multicultralism. Norway is perhaps the most un-multicultural country in Europe. They do everything they can to try and make sure their immigrants integrate, learn the language and customs and become thoroughly Norwegian.
So as I say, Norway is a great example to us in many ways. And they vote against the EU at every opportunity.
My point is simple and not very complicated. Norway keeps voting in governments that keeps on implimenting EU directives and regulations. Norway has had a regular and significant influx of immigrants and assylum seekers despite not being in the EU. Somali Pakistani Syrian. It's immigrant population I believe is about 15%. There is not much of a point to make except Norway, perhaps the most significant country in Europe not in the EU, virtually all the others are in the EU, has all the same problems as the rest.
Did they only phone those in the phone book with the surname Farage?
?? It's a huge Remain lead. I do despair of the British people sometimes. The proles are obviously absurdly grateful to Cameron for championing our right to donate money to Polish kids (in Poland) at THE LOCAL RATE.
We are a demoralised nation.
This evening I asked my older daughter's babymother (soft left-centre, but prone to quite right wing thoughts) how she was gonna vote. She said she hadn't decided, she was deeply torn, but she felt sorry for David Cameron, having to sell that terrible deal.
She is a smart woman (First Class Degree in English) and knows Cameron brought it all on himself. But she will very likely vote IN, partly out of empathy for Cameron.
If people like her are persuaded to REMAIN by DC, then I think it's over. The best bet for eurosceptics is to take revenge on the Tory Remainians after the vote, usurp the Tory machine a la Jeremy Corbyn, and turn the party into a very serious vehicle for euroscepticism, in preparation for another vote, ten years down the line.
That's the path to ultimate victory. And it will have been laid by DC. Once you have one referendum, having another seems much more reasonable.
We have already had one referendum on the EU/EEC, in 1975, this will be the second and a 15% lead for In would kill the issue for good (though personally I expect it to be very close, this is just the post-deal bounce for Remain)
Did they only phone those in the phone book with the surname Farage?
?? It's a huge Remain lead. I do despair of the British people sometimes. The proles are obviously absurdly grateful to Cameron for championing our right to donate money to Polish kids (in Poland) at THE LOCAL RATE.
We are a demoralised nation.
This evening I asked my older daughter's babymother (soft left-centre, but prone to quite right wing thoughts) how she was gonna vote. She said she hadn't decided, she was deeply torn, but she felt sorry for David Cameron, having to sell that terrible deal.
She is a smart woman (First Class Degree in English) and knows Cameron brought it all on himself. But she will very likely vote IN, partly out of empathy for Cameron.
If people like her are persuaded to REMAIN by DC, then I think it's over. The best bet for eurosceptics is to take revenge on the Tory Remainians after the vote, usurp the Tory machine a la Jeremy Corbyn, and turn the party into a very serious vehicle for euroscepticism, in preparation for another vote, ten years down the line.
That's the path to ultimate victory. And it will have been laid by DC. Once you have one referendum, having another seems much more reasonable.
We have already had one referendum on the EU/EEC, in 1975, this will be the second and a 15% lead for In would kill the issue for good (though personally I expect it to be very close, this is just the post-deal bounce for Remain)
Did they only phone those in the phone book with the surname Farage?
?? It's a huge Remain lead. I do despair of the British people sometimes. The proles are obviously absurdly grateful to Cameron for championing our right to donate money to Polish kids (in Poland) at THE LOCAL RATE.
We are a demoralised nation.
This evening I asked my older daughter's babymother (soft left-centre, but prone to quite right wing thoughts) how she was gonna vote. She said she hadn't decided, she was deeply torn, but she felt sorry for David Cameron, having to sell that terrible deal.
She is a smart woman (First Class Degree in English) and knows Cameron brought it all on himself. But she will very likely vote IN, partly out of empathy for Cameron.
If people like her are persuaded to REMAIN by DC, then I think it's over. The best bet for eurosceptics is to take revenge on the Tory Remainians after the vote, usurp the Tory machine a la Jeremy Corbyn, and turn the party into a very serious vehicle for euroscepticism, in preparation for another vote, ten years down the line.
That's the path to ultimate victory. And it will have been laid by DC. Once you have one referendum, having another seems much more reasonable.
Strangely enough that anecdote has not cheered me up very much.
I didn't expect it to. These are grim days for LEAVERS. They are fairly sad for neutrals like me, who wanted a proper, tightly fought contest. I rather doubt that will now happen.
But I do seriously believe we will be revisiting this subject much sooner than most people expect. The EU project is still fucked, they still have to Federalise or die, and when they do that we will have to think again about our relationship thereto.
The Eurozone and Schengen can federalise; Britain doesn't need to. The rest will need to formalise some kind of different relationship for us though.
At this juncture, I may as well give you my first long-range 2016 forecast...
REP 53.4% 353 DEM 46.6% 185
MOE, who knows? But the GOP are in pole position.
I take it that's for the GE and POTUS Trump?
Big call.
for the GE, irrespective of candidate(s).
When both Clinton and Sanders lead Trump in the RCP average that is ridiculous, were Rubio or Kasich the GOP candidates maybe, not Trump or Cruz who probably will be
At this juncture, I may as well give you my first long-range 2016 forecast...
REP 53.4% 353 DEM 46.6% 185
MOE, who knows? But the GOP are in pole position.
I take it that's for the GE and POTUS Trump?
Big call.
for the GE, irrespective of candidate(s).
When both Clinton and Sanders lead Trump in the RCP average that is ridiculous, were Rubio or Kasich the GOP candidates maybe, not Trump or Cruz who probably will be
Did they only phone those in the phone book with the surname Farage?
?? It's a huge Remain lead. I do despair of the British people sometimes. The proles are obviously absurdly grateful to Cameron for championing our right to donate money to Polish kids (in Poland) at THE LOCAL RATE.
We are a demoralised nation.
This evening I asked my older daughter's babymother (soft left-centre, but prone to quite right wing thoughts) how she was gonna vote. She said she hadn't decided, she was deeply torn, but she felt sorry for David Cameron, having to sell that terrible deal.
She is a smart woman (First Class Degree in English) and knows Cameron brought it all on himself. But she will very likely vote IN, partly out of empathy for Cameron.
If people like her are persuaded to REMAIN by DC, then I think it's over. The best bet for eurosceptics is to take revenge on the Tory Remainians after the vote, usurp the Tory machine a la Jeremy Corbyn, and turn the party into a very serious vehicle for euroscepticism, in preparation for another vote, ten years down the line.
That's the path to ultimate victory. And it will have been laid by DC. Once you have one referendum, having another seems much more reasonable.
Strangely enough that anecdote has not cheered me up very much.
I didn't expect it to. These are grim days for LEAVERS. They are fairly sad for neutrals like me, who wanted a proper, tightly fought contest. I rather doubt that will now happen.
But I do seriously believe we will be revisiting this subject much sooner than most people expect. The EU project is still fucked, they still have to Federalise or die, and when they do that we will have to think again about our relationship thereto.
You stumble on a real point. Any move to real federalism will affect us.
The Sanders counties near to 100% counted, Clark still only a third. Looks a comfortable Hillary win.
Yes. Boo.
Sort of boo anyway. Of the field left, she's the best option but, ugh, how depressing that after the second-rate Bush (third if you include Jeb) we're now going to have the second-rate Clinton.
@SeanT - if the last few days have shown me anything it's that people (and MPs, strangely enough, are people too) are too tempted to put their own narrow career interests, salaries, and job security ahead of wider national interests and their own better intellectual judgement.
Do I blame them all for doing it?
No, it's only human. But I am disappointed in those who've made a lifelong brand out of professing their euroscepticism - their own careers, so far, benefiting accordingly - only to flake at the last moment. And I think plenty of ordinary eurosceptics will be the same; too afraid to vote Remain, and looking for a reason to be spooked, taking their lead from those who profess to lead us.
Now, I don't say everyone does that (or we'd have no ministers or aspirational backbenchers declaring for Leave at all) but enough do to make a big difference. Perhaps the difference.
And that's also why I find those who do have the courage to declare for Leave such inspirations, Michael Gove being first amongst them. That's what leaders do. It's not easy, it's risky and it has consequences. And that's why we look up to them.
However bad it looks, we must not let hard odds crush the morale of us Leavers. Campaigning for sovereignty and a new relationship for the UK with Europe is The Right Thing To Do.
Any, even if you're a reluctant Remainer and think Remain are bound to win, every single Leave vote that narrows the margin puts extra pressure on the EU to deliver to the deal both in spirit and mind.
BTW Mr Tyndall I've only just heard within the last hour my Norweigan resident brother in law tell me that 'we are not in the EU but we do all they tell us'. I'll grant you some modest hyperbole.
Fortunately your Norwegian Brother in Law is wrong. But then whether it is Norway, the UK, France or Outer Mongolia there is usually a big divide between public perceptions and reality.
It's a sod, the public having a vote.
Not at all. It just means we have to persuade them. Of course in the case of Norway the Government dearly wishes the public didn't have the vote because every time they ask the EU question they get beaten.
The Norweigan people keep voting in governments that apply EU regulations and edicts even though they are not in the EU. Norway, not in the EU, has had to act despite being in Schengen to bring in controls to halt Syrian immigrants. But only at the moment for 20 days. This is because EU Sweden chose to bring in border controls. Non EU Norway has had thousands of Syrian immigrants. In recent times some 29,000 asylum seekers have entered Norway. Russia as not been helpful.
Actually I agree with almost everything you say there but don't quite get your point.
Norway as a country is rather like me as a person as far as the questions of the EU and immigration go. Anti-EU, pro moderate immigration. Whilst I dislike many things about Norway their amazing ability to integrate and nationalise immigrants is enviable and one I wish we could achieve. One of the strange things about the Anders Brevik thing was his claims about the evils of multicultralism. Norway is perhaps the most un-multicultural country in Europe. They do everything they can to try and make sure their immigrants integrate, learn the language and customs and become thoroughly Norwegian.
So as I say, Norway is a great example to us in many ways. And they vote against the EU at every opportunity.
My point is simple and not very complicated. Norway keeps voting in governments that keeps on implimenting EU directives and regulations. Norway has had a regular and significant influx of immigrants and assylum seekers despite not being in the EU. Somali Pakistani Syrian. It's immigrant population I believe is about 15%. There is not much of a point to make except Norway, perhaps the most significant country in Europe not in the EU, virtually all the others are in the EU, has all the same problems as the rest.
Except it doesn't. As I said. Your partial reading of the situation destroys your argument.
Comments
Well, I guess it's better than losing £5.50.
Clinton 1,556 55%
Sanders1,296 45%
REP 53.4% 353
DEM 46.6% 185
MOE, who knows?
But the GOP are in pole position.
Norway keeps voting in governments that keeps on implimenting EU directives and regulations.
Norway has had a regular and significant influx of immigrants and assylum seekers despite not being in the EU. Somali Pakistani Syrian. It's immigrant population I believe is about 15%.
There is not much of a point to make except Norway, perhaps the most significant country in Europe not in the EU, virtually all the others are in the EU, has all the same problems as the rest.
Big call.
New Thread New Thread
Silly me.
Sort of boo anyway. Of the field left, she's the best option but, ugh, how depressing that after the second-rate Bush (third if you include Jeb) we're now going to have the second-rate Clinton.
Clinton 52.0
Sanders 47.9
Clark county is really winning this for Clinton. What thoughts on final shares (barring surprises)? Could 55-45 be viable?
Do I blame them all for doing it?
No, it's only human. But I am disappointed in those who've made a lifelong brand out of professing their euroscepticism - their own careers, so far, benefiting accordingly - only to flake at the last moment. And I think plenty of ordinary eurosceptics will be the same; too afraid to vote Remain, and looking for a reason to be spooked, taking their lead from those who profess to lead us.
Now, I don't say everyone does that (or we'd have no ministers or aspirational backbenchers declaring for Leave at all) but enough do to make a big difference. Perhaps the difference.
And that's also why I find those who do have the courage to declare for Leave such inspirations, Michael Gove being first amongst them. That's what leaders do. It's not easy, it's risky and it has consequences. And that's why we look up to them.
However bad it looks, we must not let hard odds crush the morale of us Leavers. Campaigning for sovereignty and a new relationship for the UK with Europe is The Right Thing To Do.
Any, even if you're a reluctant Remainer and think Remain are bound to win, every single Leave vote that narrows the margin puts extra pressure on the EU to deliver to the deal both in spirit and mind.
Lest we vote again.