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  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,136
    edited February 2016
    MaxPB said:

    Doesn't he have 20bn to deploy?

    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF said:

    MaxPB said:

    Poor PSF figures this morning. January surplus of £11.2bn well under expectations of ~£13bn given the massive rise in self-employment.

    Presently 10.6 Bn below this time last year - latest forecast is 73.5 Bn for year.

    A long way from surplus.
    Yes, we're not going to meet the forecast unless there is a massive upside in February self-assessment returns or there are downward revisions to borrowing of around £7bn for the YTD. With a £3bn upside and £4bn revisions the chancellor might make it, but it looks remote at the moment. Methinks he might be regretting spending the OBR's magic money right now.
    Had £20bn, he's spent it all on reversing the tax credits changes and cuts to the police among other items.
    I understood it was a new £20n, because he had managed to reschedule our nation's debts by putting them on a new card and getting an interest free period. Or something. I may not have been paying attention though....
  • Options
    On topic, there's no show without Punch. What we're seeing right now is the crocodile waving around the sausages.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    John_N said:

    The key issue in the EU talks is the City of London. Cameron is the spivs' man.

    The key issue isn't immigration, or child benefits for immigrants, or "emergency brakes", or Polish people. They are being given lots of column inches so that Britgov can retain some favour in its home market if the other powers decide to boot Britain out of the club.

    French President François Hollande says there must be one set of rules “to fight against speculation”. Can you get it much clearer? That means no special rules for that monstrous creation on a square mile of East-Central London. No British government, and no newspaper with a wide circulation in Britain, has ever fought against the monster.

    I told you that the members of the French political elite remember John Law. They remember the Stavisky affair too.

    "France is concerned that the UK is seeking to carve out special protections for the City of London".

    Vive la France!

    Yes and when the £60bn that the financial services industry puts into government coffers turns into £6bn, who will pay for the education budget? You?
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    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited February 2016
    MaxPB said:

    JonathanD said:

    Indigo said:

    "Genius" Osborne's nose for a vote winner appears to be deserting him. After pissing off around half his parties supporters with this EURef fiasco, he now pulls the "upto 129 fold increase in death duties" rabbit out of his hat.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/12164010/Grieving-families-could-be-forced-to-pay-a-new-death-tax.html

    Bereaved families could be forced to pay what amounts to a new death tax of up to £20,000, under Government plans.
    Ministers claimed the changes to the system of probate fees charged to activate a will would be fairer to poorer families by ensuring that many would no longer have to pay.
    But for some families it amounts to a potential 129-fold increase in costs as part of a scheme to intended to raise £250 million for the Exchequer.
    Dave and George seem to feel its time to ditch those nasty right of centre voters and appeal to the Wodger Tendency.

    "Those worth more than £500,000 – now just under the average London house price – would incur a charge of £4,000 rising to £8,000 for those worth over £1 million and £20,000 at the top end for estates amounting to over £2 million"


    Cry me a river...



    If the Tories are not going to stand up for the middle classes then who will? This is a bad road to go down, the government should be looking to eliminate inheritance tax entirely rather than ramp it up.


    - Only 1% of estates will pay the top rate; £20k on a £2million house isn't bad.
    - The lower limit for no probate fee is going up from £5k to £50k, meaning 60% of estates now won't incur any cost - that's much more protecting the middle class.
    - The government has already cut inheritance tax on properties.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MaxPB said:

    JonathanD said:

    Indigo said:

    "Genius" Osborne's nose for a vote winner appears to be deserting him. After pissing off around half his parties supporters with this EURef fiasco, he now pulls the "upto 129 fold increase in death duties" rabbit out of his hat.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/12164010/Grieving-families-could-be-forced-to-pay-a-new-death-tax.html

    Bereaved families could be forced to pay what amounts to a new death tax of up to £20,000, under Government plans.
    Ministers claimed the changes to the system of probate fees charged to activate a will would be fairer to poorer families by ensuring that many would no longer have to pay.
    But for some families it amounts to a potential 129-fold increase in costs as part of a scheme to intended to raise £250 million for the Exchequer.
    Dave and George seem to feel its time to ditch those nasty right of centre voters and appeal to the Wodger Tendency.

    "Those worth more than £500,000 – now just under the average London house price – would incur a charge of £4,000 rising to £8,000 for those worth over £1 million and £20,000 at the top end for estates amounting to over £2 million"


    Cry me a river...



    If the Tories are not going to stand up for the middle classes then who will? This is a bad road to go down, the government should be looking to eliminate inheritance tax entirely rather than ramp it up.

    £2M house is "middle class" - only in London and those types vote Corbyn.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @UKMarkTyrrell: Cameron:
    He's up all night to the sun
    He's up all night to get some
    He's up all night for good fun
    He's up all night to get lucky
    #Brexit
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,960
    MaxPB said:

    JonathanD said:

    Indigo said:

    "Genius" Osborne's nose for a vote winner appears to be deserting him. After pissing off around half his parties supporters with this EURef fiasco, he now pulls the "upto 129 fold increase in death duties" rabbit out of his hat.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/12164010/Grieving-families-could-be-forced-to-pay-a-new-death-tax.html

    Bereaved families could be forced to pay what amounts to a new death tax of up to £20,000, under Government plans.
    Ministers claimed the changes to the system of probate fees charged to activate a will would be fairer to poorer families by ensuring that many would no longer have to pay.
    But for some families it amounts to a potential 129-fold increase in costs as part of a scheme to intended to raise £250 million for the Exchequer.
    Dave and George seem to feel its time to ditch those nasty right of centre voters and appeal to the Wodger Tendency.

    "Those worth more than £500,000 – now just under the average London house price – would incur a charge of £4,000 rising to £8,000 for those worth over £1 million and £20,000 at the top end for estates amounting to over £2 million"

    Cry me a river...

    If the Tories are not going to stand up for the middle classes then who will? This is a bad road to go down, the government should be looking to eliminate inheritance tax entirely rather than ramp it up.

    Can't say I particularly like this change as it probably adversely affects me in the future, but the Gov'ts changes to IHT are good. Swings and roundabouts as ever.
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    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    OT - Mr Trump would recognise a bad deal and walk away from it.
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    edited February 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Doesn't he have 20bn to deploy?

    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF said:

    MaxPB said:

    Poor PSF figures this morning. January surplus of £11.2bn well under expectations of ~£13bn given the massive rise in self-employment.

    Presently 10.6 Bn below this time last year - latest forecast is 73.5 Bn for year.

    A long way from surplus.
    Yes, we're not going to meet the forecast unless there is a massive upside in February self-assessment returns or there are downward revisions to borrowing of around £7bn for the YTD. With a £3bn upside and £4bn revisions the chancellor might make it, but it looks remote at the moment. Methinks he might be regretting spending the OBR's magic money right now.
    Had £20bn, he's spent it all on reversing the tax credits changes and cuts to the police among other items.
    Some of the police cuts probably needed to be undone - it's a service that's actually facing very severe cuts unlike the brou haha over the NHS which simply isnt'. The tax credits, purely political from Osborne - should have left them.
    What was the split of that 20 Bn between the police/tax cuts ?
    The tax credits have been delayed until the universal credit.
    Even on a brief perusal PBers are hyperventilating as much as ever this morning.
    Yesterday the BBC did a box pop down a high Street and found vertually no one with any sort of clue at all about the EU and any negotiations.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,960
    JonathanD said:

    MaxPB said:

    JonathanD said:

    Indigo said:

    "Genius" Osborne's nose for a vote winner appears to be deserting him. After pissing off around half his parties supporters with this EURef fiasco, he now pulls the "upto 129 fold increase in death duties" rabbit out of his hat.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/12164010/Grieving-families-could-be-forced-to-pay-a-new-death-tax.html

    Bereaved families could be forced to pay what amounts to a new death tax of up to £20,000, under Government plans.
    Ministers claimed the changes to the system of probate fees charged to activate a will would be fairer to poorer families by ensuring that many would no longer have to pay.
    But for some families it amounts to a potential 129-fold increase in costs as part of a scheme to intended to raise £250 million for the Exchequer.
    Dave and George seem to feel its time to ditch those nasty right of centre voters and appeal to the Wodger Tendency.

    "Those worth more than £500,000 – now just under the average London house price – would incur a charge of £4,000 rising to £8,000 for those worth over £1 million and £20,000 at the top end for estates amounting to over £2 million"


    Cry me a river...



    If the Tories are not going to stand up for the middle classes then who will? This is a bad road to go down, the government should be looking to eliminate inheritance tax entirely rather than ramp it up.

    - Only 1% of estates will pay the top rate; £20k on a £2million house isn't bad.
    - The lower limit for no probate fee is going up from £5k to £50k, meaning 60% of estates now won't incur any cost - that's much more protecting the middle class.
    - The government has already cut inheritance tax on properties.

    60% of estates are sub 50k ?

    I find that weird considering practically any house or flat in the country is worth at least 60k.
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    John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    @Mike - why do you say that

    "it might be that this ends today without agreement. In that situation there will have to be more talks at a later date and it is going to be very hard to meet the deadline for a June 23rd vote."?

    Why do you completely discount the possibility that this will end today with an agreement that talks on terms for continued British membership have failed, and that Cameron will admit failure (doubtless boosting the intensity of his popularity among half the voters at least), announce a vote on 23 June, and call for people to vote LEAVE?

    In that scenario, they would announce "talks at a later date" to decide the terms of withdrawal.

    It's unlikely there'll be no drama between now and Sunday.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,960

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Doesn't he have 20bn to deploy?

    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF said:

    MaxPB said:

    Poor PSF figures this morning. January surplus of £11.2bn well under expectations of ~£13bn given the massive rise in self-employment.

    Presently 10.6 Bn below this time last year - latest forecast is 73.5 Bn for year.

    A long way from surplus.
    Yes, we're not going to meet the forecast unless there is a massive upside in February self-assessment returns or there are downward revisions to borrowing of around £7bn for the YTD. With a £3bn upside and £4bn revisions the chancellor might make it, but it looks remote at the moment. Methinks he might be regretting spending the OBR's magic money right now.
    Had £20bn, he's spent it all on reversing the tax credits changes and cuts to the police among other items.
    Some of the police cuts probably needed to be undone - it's a service that's actually facing very severe cuts unlike the brou haha over the NHS which simply isnt'. The tax credits, purely political from Osborne - should have left them.
    What was the split of that 20 Bn between the police/tax cuts ?
    The tax credits have been delayed until the universal credit.
    Even on a brief perusal PBers are hyperventilating as much as ever this morning.
    Yesterday the BBC did a box pop down a high Street and found vertually no one with any sort of clue at all about the EU and any negotiations.
    Ah yes forgot about that bit, still it does leave Osborne less wiggle room should the economy turn.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    MaxPB said:

    JonathanD said:

    Indigo said:

    "Genius" Osborne's nose for a vote winner appears to be deserting him. After pissing off around half his parties supporters with this EURef fiasco, he now pulls the "upto 129 fold increase in death duties" rabbit out of his hat.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/12164010/Grieving-families-could-be-forced-to-pay-a-new-death-tax.html

    Bereaved families could be forced to pay what amounts to a new death tax of up to £20,000, under Government plans.
    Ministers claimed the changes to the system of probate fees charged to activate a will would be fairer to poorer families by ensuring that many would no longer have to pay.
    But for some families it amounts to a potential 129-fold increase in costs as part of a scheme to intended to raise £250 million for the Exchequer.
    Dave and George seem to feel its time to ditch those nasty right of centre voters and appeal to the Wodger Tendency.

    "Those worth more than £500,000 – now just under the average London house price – would incur a charge of £4,000 rising to £8,000 for those worth over £1 million and £20,000 at the top end for estates amounting to over £2 million"


    Cry me a river...



    If the Tories are not going to stand up for the middle classes then who will? This is a bad road to go down, the government should be looking to eliminate inheritance tax entirely rather than ramp it up.

    The Tories can't be the party of inheritors of million-pound estates and the party of "strivers".
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    MaxPB said:

    Doesn't he have 20bn to deploy?

    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF said:

    MaxPB said:

    Poor PSF figures this morning. January surplus of £11.2bn well under expectations of ~£13bn given the massive rise in self-employment.

    Presently 10.6 Bn below this time last year - latest forecast is 73.5 Bn for year.

    A long way from surplus.
    Yes, we're not going to meet the forecast unless there is a massive upside in February self-assessment returns or there are downward revisions to borrowing of around £7bn for the YTD. With a £3bn upside and £4bn revisions the chancellor might make it, but it looks remote at the moment. Methinks he might be regretting spending the OBR's magic money right now.
    Had £20bn, he's spent it all on reversing the tax credits changes and cuts to the police among other items.
    I understood it was a new £20n, because he had managed to reschedule our nation's debts by putting them on a new card and getting an interest free period. Or something. I may not have been paying attention though....
    Yes, it was a new £20bn which he used to reverse previous money saving measures such as tax credits withdrawal, cuts to the police budget, cuts to the defence budget and a few other smaller items. The tax credits changes account for about half of the £20bn though, if he was a sensible Tory chancellor he would have used half of the money to reverse cuts to the police and defence budgets and gone ahead with the tax credits cuts to bank the other half for a rainy day, or in the more likely case, it turns out to be phantom money.
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    TGOHF said:

    It has to be June the 23rd, Mike and I have already switched our holiday plans enough times assuming it was June the 23rd.

    What time today would it be clear that a deal wasn't happening ? 6pm ?
    From an entirely selfish viewpoint, some clarity on what's going on by then would be extremely useful in terms of writing tomorrow's thread leader.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    All the debts and borrowings of housing associations from 2008 onwards were lumped into the national accounts from October 2015.

    It's like the Railtrack money from 2002 (?).

    All these debts hidden away from the books.

  • Options

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,960
    I know Cameron is too scared to debate Farage and would rather he was banned, but do you think if he trolled him he'd look a bit of a clueless twat?
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    John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    MaxPB said:

    Yes and when the £60bn that the financial services industry puts into government coffers turns into £6bn, who will pay for the education budget? You?

    Yes, they pay rent for the time being. But don't you realise that if a stop isn't put to the power of the spivs they will bring everything down? That said, what they've achieved already is probably enough to bring everything down anyway.

  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited February 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    JonathanD said:

    MaxPB said:

    JonathanD said:

    Indigo said:

    "Genius" Osborne's nose for a vote winner appears to be deserting him. After pissing off around half his parties supporters with this EURef fiasco, he now pulls the "upto 129 fold increase in death duties" rabbit out of his hat.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/12164010/Grieving-families-could-be-forced-to-pay-a-new-death-tax.html

    Bereaved families could be forced to pay what amounts to a new death tax of up to £20,000, under Government plans.
    Ministers claimed the changes to the system of probate fees charged to activate a will would be fairer to poorer families by ensuring that many would no longer have to pay.
    But for some families it amounts to a potential 129-fold increase in costs as part of a scheme to intended to raise £250 million for the Exchequer.
    Dave and George seem to feel its time to ditch those nasty right of centre voters and appeal to the Wodger Tendency.

    "Those worth more than £500,000 – now just under the average London house price – would incur a charge of £4,000 rising to £8,000 for those worth over £1 million and £20,000 at the top end for estates amounting to over £2 million"


    Cry me a river...



    If the Tories are not going to stand up for the middle classes then who will? This is a bad road to go down, the government should be looking to eliminate inheritance tax entirely rather than ramp it up.

    - Only 1% of estates will pay the top rate; £20k on a £2million house isn't bad.
    - The lower limit for no probate fee is going up from £5k to £50k, meaning 60% of estates now won't incur any cost - that's much more protecting the middle class.
    - The government has already cut inheritance tax on properties.
    60% of estates are sub 50k ?

    I find that weird considering practically any house or flat in the country is worth at least 60k.

    Those are the MoJ figures so I assume they are right and I would guess that by the time of death a lot of people have sold off their home and redistributed the proceeds.

  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Pulpstar said:

    JonathanD said:

    MaxPB said:

    JonathanD said:

    Indigo said:

    "Genius" Osborne's nose for a vote winner appears to be deserting him. After pissing off around half his parties supporters with this EURef fiasco, he now pulls the "upto 129 fold increase in death duties" rabbit out of his hat.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/12164010/Grieving-families-could-be-forced-to-pay-a-new-death-tax.html

    Bereaved families could be forced to pay what amounts to a new death tax of up to £20,000, under Government plans.
    Ministers claimed the changes to the system of probate fees charged to activate a will would be fairer to poorer families by ensuring that many would no longer have to pay.
    But for some families it amounts to a potential 129-fold increase in costs as part of a scheme to intended to raise £250 million for the Exchequer.
    Dave and George seem to feel its time to ditch those nasty right of centre voters and appeal to the Wodger Tendency.

    "Those worth more than £500,000 – now just under the average London house price – would incur a charge of £4,000 rising to £8,000 for those worth over £1 million and £20,000 at the top end for estates amounting to over £2 million"


    Cry me a river...



    If the Tories are not going to stand up for the middle classes then who will? This is a bad road to go down, the government should be looking to eliminate inheritance tax entirely rather than ramp it up.

    - Only 1% of estates will pay the top rate; £20k on a £2million house isn't bad.
    - The lower limit for no probate fee is going up from £5k to £50k, meaning 60% of estates now won't incur any cost - that's much more protecting the middle class.
    - The government has already cut inheritance tax on properties.
    60% of estates are sub 50k ?

    I find that weird considering practically any house or flat in the country is worth at least 60k.

    Mortgaged or sold to pay for care? Or people were renting to start with?
  • Options
    John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    TOPPING said:


    You do know that the City of London elders are tracking your every movement, your every keystroke, don't you?

    I would give Itsu a miss for a while if I were you.

    Is that the latest right-wing insult? I had to look it up to find out what it meant. It's a restaurant, right?

  • Options

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
  • Options
    JohnO said:


    If the 'deal' is the same as the one unveiled a fortnight ago....then on the fence I remain but more sulkily.
    If it has been watered down still further then 55-45 I move to out.
    However, if he secures further concessions (yeah, depends on what), then I'm edging back to Remain (which is where I would like to have been from the start).

    JohnO very interesting that you see it that way.
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    Saw her earlier on Sky. I'm growing to really dislike her manner.

    Pulpstar said:

    Why is Rudd trending on Twitter - has she been wheeled out as the latest human shield for Dave ?

    Sister of Roland Rudd. Enough said.
  • Options
    Indigo said:

    "Genius" Osborne's nose for a vote winner appears to be deserting him. After pissing off around half his parties supporters with this EURef fiasco, he now pulls the "upto 129 fold increase in death duties" rabbit out of his hat.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/12164010/Grieving-families-could-be-forced-to-pay-a-new-death-tax.html

    Bereaved families could be forced to pay what amounts to a new death tax of up to £20,000, under Government plans.
    Ministers claimed the changes to the system of probate fees charged to activate a will would be fairer to poorer families by ensuring that many would no longer have to pay.
    But for some families it amounts to a potential 129-fold increase in costs as part of a scheme to intended to raise £250 million for the Exchequer.
    Dave and George seem to feel its time to ditch those nasty right of centre voters and appeal to the Wodger Tendency.

    Stupid is as stupid does. Opportunity to sell more lifetime trusts to take out up to £600k of a couple's estate. Less probate work for others.
  • Options

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    There was far too much wooly thinking at Charge of the Light Brigade.

    I mean The Seventh Earl of Cardigan at the Battle of Balaclava.

    I'll get my coat.
  • Options
    Mr. L, you think the Charge of the Light Brigade and Dunkirk are both better known than Agincourt and Waterloo?

    Well, modern history's not my area, but I'd say you're wronger than the 13th Earl of Wrongcaster.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Agent P
    Natalie McGarry just can't keep out the papers.

    Maybe one day it will be for the right reasons. https://t.co/OD8rs0lre4
  • Options

    Mr. L, you think the Charge of the Light Brigade and Dunkirk are both better known than Agincourt and Waterloo?

    Well, modern history's not my area, but I'd say you're wronger than the 13th Earl of Wrongcaster.

    The most shameful episodes in British military history have to be the fall of Singapore and Jallianwala Bagh massacre
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Wanderer said:

    The Tories can't be the party of inheritors of million-pound estates and the party of "strivers".

    The strivers already got screwed a short while ago. Mr & Mrs Daily Mail with their one BTL they were hoping to use as a pension income now can't offset most of their mortgage interest as an expense making the whole thing financially non-viable, Fat Cat Property PLC meanwhile continues to amass property and rental incomes completely unaffected because they are buying from cash turnover (don't tell me about stamp duty, 3% is neither here not there for a corporation looking to hold properties for long-term income)
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    To say nothing of the Battle of Britain and Trafalgar.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,037
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,654
    ISTM that if Mr O needs about few billion a year, and to impact the housing bubble where it exists, he should consider removing the capital gains tax exemption for main residences sold in London.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Nice map

    High-growth companies growing twice as fast outside London, says @ERC_UK. via @AndyBounds https://t.co/FjDZBzK3uY https://t.co/Xr1FatwYXx
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2016
    John_N said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yes and when the £60bn that the financial services industry puts into government coffers turns into £6bn, who will pay for the education budget? You?

    Yes, they pay rent for the time being. But don't you realise that if a stop isn't put to the power of the spivs they will bring everything down? That said, what they've achieved already is probably enough to bring everything down anyway.
    Stop waving your hands around and tell him who is going to pay for the education budget...

    Yes it would be nice to rebalance the economy, but unfortunately it means making money from somewhere else first, and there isn't the faintest chance we are going to beat Asia at manufacturing.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,037

    Mr. L, you think the Charge of the Light Brigade and Dunkirk are both better known than Agincourt and Waterloo?

    Well, modern history's not my area, but I'd say you're wronger than the 13th Earl of Wrongcaster.

    Don't forget Crecy!
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    PEOPLE campaigning for Britain to leave the EU privately hope the country stays in so they can keep bitching about it.

    As the anti-European campaign cranks up its rhetoric, thousands of people are secretly praying for a ‘stay’ vote so they can continue to use the term ‘EUSSR’ and imply that all Bulgarians are thieves.

    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/anti-eu-campaigners-secretly-hoping-britain-stays-in-so-they-can-keep-whining-20160219106386
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,037

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    To say nothing of the Battle of Britain and Trafalgar.
    Hear, hear for Trafalgar.
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    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    not wholly or even mainly British though
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    Mr. Eagles, as I've said, modern history isn't my forte.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited February 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.

    We can claim the Battle of Britain however!

  • Options

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    To say nothing of the Battle of Britain and Trafalgar.
    I was on a bus once listening to one of our countrymen trying to remember for his American friend what Trafalgar Square commemorated. I blame Michael Gove.
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    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    To say nothing of the Battle of Britain and Trafalgar.
    Don't forget the Anglo-Zanzibar war.
  • Options
    Mr. 1000, indeed, or Poitiers (which had the distinction of the Black Prince capturing the King of France).
  • Options

    Mr. Eagles, as I've said, modern history isn't my forte.

    It's ok, I'll help educate you on modern history just like I have on classical history.
  • Options

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    There was far too much wooly thinking at Charge of the Light Brigade.

    I mean The Seventh Earl of Cardigan at the Battle of Balaclava.

    I'll get my coat.
    With Raglan sleeves, doubtless.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.
    I don't think so, certainly not the invasion itself which was largely British planned and the number of troops involved was about equal between the Brits and the Yanks with the Canadians making up the balance. It was, however, the last hurrah of the British army as later in the Normandy campaign the massive superiority of US numbers came to eclipse the UK contribution.
  • Options
    Michael Crick

    Notts Police say it's too late - beyond 12 mon deadline - to bring prosecutions for any election expenses offences during Newark by-election
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    Mr. Eagles, I think I prefer honest ignorance to woeful misunderstanding...
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.
    True, but 300,000 troops out of a million or so is nothing to sniff at!
  • Options

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    And the Battle of Hastings, which was a defeat.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.

    We can claim the Battle of Britain however!

    One would hope!
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Looks like Maria Caulfield MP is a Leaver.

    The EU can destroy our communities by fiat from Brussels. Sorry, but I'm out
    David Cameron's deal is little more than a gentleman's agreement between states which can choose to break their word whenever convenient
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12163120/The-EU-can-destroy-our-communities-by-fiat-from-Brussels.-Sorry-but-Im-out.html
  • Options
    John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    Wall Street Journal: City of London has most at stake in EU membership talks.

    Bloomberg: "Every day more than a trillion dollars worth of euros change hands in London, close to half the global total, according to the Bank for International Settlements. The City’s global dominance of the foreign-exchange market is likely to be tested by any Brexit package that fails to guarantee a continuation of access to the single market."
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,136
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.
    True, but 300,000 troops out of a million or so is nothing to sniff at!
    And they would have been in a bit of a spot without our huge aircraft carrier/port moored 21 miles off France.... The one the Luftwaffe tried to sink with year after year of bombing.
  • Options
    John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    JonathanD said:

    We can claim the Battle of Britain however!

    Something like a quarter of the aircraft defending these islands in that battle were piloted by Polish airmen.

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,136

    Michael Crick

    Notts Police say it's too late - beyond 12 mon deadline - to bring prosecutions for any election expenses offences during Newark by-election


    So just the General then.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    John_N said:

    Wall Street Journal: City of London has most at stake in EU membership talks.

    Bloomberg: "Every day more than a trillion dollars worth of euros change hands in London, close to half the global total, according to the Bank for International Settlements. The City’s global dominance of the foreign-exchange market is likely to be tested by any Brexit package that fails to guarantee a continuation of access to the single market."

    Not exactly a revelation.
  • Options
    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.

    We can claim the Battle of Britain however!

    With a bit of Polish, Czech & Commonwealth help.
  • Options
    runnymede said:

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.

    Well the actual equivalent of that would be a great thing, but this looks more like Arnhem

    Arnhem was "A Bridge Too Far" (about 3/4 bridges into German occupied territory); Cameron has barely put a few tentative steps onto the first bridge..
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.

    Too many US movies being watched...
  • Options

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    And the Battle of Hastings, which was a defeat.
    Thank Allah they were Normans and not French.

    Being conquered by the French would be so embarrassing.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,136

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    To say nothing of the Battle of Britain and Trafalgar.
    Don't forget the Anglo-Zanzibar war.
    The Opium Wars - a high point...
  • Options
    Mr. Eagles, quite.

    King John gave that a crack, though. Lackland and Softsword, has any other king had two such nicknames?
  • Options

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    To say nothing of the Battle of Britain and Trafalgar.
    Don't forget the Anglo-Zanzibar war.
    The Opium Wars - a high point...
    That's worthy of exile to ConHome
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    John_N said:

    JonathanD said:

    We can claim the Battle of Britain however!

    Something like a quarter of the aircraft defending these islands in that battle were piloted by Polish airmen.

    No they were not! The Poles were there both as RAFVR pilots in normal RAF squadrons and, later on, in two squadrons of fighters of the "Polish Air Force" (302, and 303) but the proportion of polish fliers was nothing like 25%. The Poles made a fantastic contribution but let us not exaggerate.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    This Euro summit is the battle of Stalingrad.

    Noisy trumpeting of victory by the punchy invader, who then ground to a halt then forced into abject surrender after operation Uranus.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,037
    runnymede said:

    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.

    Too many US movies being watched...

    IIRC it was about 50% Americans, 35% British, 15% Commonwealth, but I could be wrong
  • Options
    John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    Indigo said:

    John_N said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yes and when the £60bn that the financial services industry puts into government coffers turns into £6bn, who will pay for the education budget? You?

    Yes, they pay rent for the time being. But don't you realise that if a stop isn't put to the power of the spivs they will bring everything down? That said, what they've achieved already is probably enough to bring everything down anyway.
    Stop waving your hands around and tell him who is going to pay for the education budget...
    Higher top-rate income tax, swingeing inheritance tax, seizure of financial assets by the state. Let's reorient things. Let the spivs run to their lawyers in the US. Let's go in the other direction from letting them get more and more power over the rest of us.
    Yes it would be nice to rebalance the economy, but unfortunately it means making money from somewhere else first, and there isn't the faintest chance we are going to beat Asia at manufacturing.
    That's a coherent position, but you should be open and accept that it comes down to "we can't do anything, because speculating spivs have got the country by its short and curlies and are holding us to ransom". But as I said, if it's allowed to continue, they will kill the host. Not surprising that getting a parasite off the host's back will do some damage.

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,136

    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.

    We can claim the Battle of Britain however!

    With a bit of Polish, Czech & Commonwealth help.
    If you look at the list of those who fought for the RAF at the end of the Battle of Britain film, there is a single American. I often wonder what his story was...
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,037

    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.

    We can claim the Battle of Britain however!

    With a bit of Polish, Czech & Commonwealth help.
    There were even one or two French fliers I believe.

    But the vast, vast majority were British,
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    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    And the Battle of Hastings, which was a defeat.
    Preceded by the Battle of Stamford Bridge, then the boys were tired by the immediate long march to the next game at Hastings. I think it's unfair to overlook Marlborough's victory at Blenheim and Wellington at Waterloo.
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    TGOHF said:

    This Euro summit is the battle of Stalingrad.

    Noisy trumpeting of victory by the punchy invader, who then ground to a halt then forced into abject surrender after operation Uranus.

    Dieppe raid surely ?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,136

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    To say nothing of the Battle of Britain and Trafalgar.
    Don't forget the Anglo-Zanzibar war.
    The Opium Wars - a high point...
    That's worthy of exile to ConHome
    Why, thank you kind Sir.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    To say nothing of the Battle of Britain and Trafalgar.
    Don't forget the Anglo-Zanzibar war.
    The Opium Wars - a high point...
    Off to CiF with you for a week!
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    Mr. 1000, indeed, or Poitiers (which had the distinction of the Black Prince capturing the King of France).

    Or Stamford Bridge, which was probably the most emphatic English victory of the entire middle ages.
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    John_N said:

    JonathanD said:

    We can claim the Battle of Britain however!

    Something like a quarter of the aircraft defending these islands in that battle were piloted by Polish airmen.

    No they were not! The Poles were there both as RAFVR pilots in normal RAF squadrons and, later on, in two squadrons of fighters of the "Polish Air Force" (302, and 303) but the proportion of polish fliers was nothing like 25%. The Poles made a fantastic contribution but let us not exaggerate.
    Indeed, a very quick search shows that there were a total of 2353 British pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain. In addition there were 574 foreign pilots fighting with them. Of these 145 were Polish. So Polish pilots made up just under 5% of all the Allied pilots fighting in the battle.
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    runnymede said:

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.

    Well the actual equivalent of that would be a great thing, but this looks more like Arnhem

    Arnhem was "A Bridge Too Far" (about 3/4 bridges into German occupied territory); Cameron has barely put a few tentative steps onto the first bridge..
    Yep. Cameron's efforts are more like Dieppe.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,871

    Mr. Eagles, quite.

    King John gave that a crack, though. Lackland and Softsword, has any other king had two such nicknames?

    Pepin the Short, Ivarr the Boneless, although they were both, in fact, able warriors.

    Viking nicknames are great; Eynyarr Paunch-Shaker, Thorvald Skull-Cleaver, Ragnar Hairy-Breeches, Eric Bloodaxe.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Agent P
    Natalie McGarry just can't keep out the papers.

    Maybe one day it will be for the right reasons. https://t.co/OD8rs0lre4

    It is a very, very limited apology and she's refused to bow to Rowling's extortion attempt to get money out of her in the form of a forced donation to Rowlings charity.
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    TGOHF said:

    This Euro summit is the battle of Stalingrad.

    Noisy trumpeting of victory by the punchy invader, who then ground to a halt then forced into abject surrender after operation Uranus.

    Dieppe raid surely ?
    Snap TSE. I hadn't seen your posting when I made the same comparison.
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    Mr. F, but that's just one nickname each. John had two, and both were taking the piss out of him.

    Ah, Erik Bloodaxe. Last king of York, you know.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    rcs1000 said:

    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.

    We can claim the Battle of Britain however!

    With a bit of Polish, Czech & Commonwealth help.
    There were even one or two French fliers I believe.

    But the vast, vast majority were British,
    There were also, whisper it, twenty or thirty Belgian fighter pilots flying in the RAF during the BoB.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,352

    Mr. Indigo, headlines about raising revenue from grieving families are not necessarily to Osborne's advantage.

    Complacency borne of Corbyn seems to be affecting the Conservative leadership.

    Dispassionately seen, I think the Tories need to lose a few by-elections - at present they think they can get aware with anything because they're bound to face Corbyn in 2020 and that's bound to end well regardless. There are several ways that could go wrong.

    On the EU summit, as your local EU specialist I predict it'll end with a deal this evening or tomorrow morning. It won't run to Sunday.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,871
    Pulpstar said:

    JonathanD said:

    MaxPB said:

    JonathanD said:

    Indigo said:

    "Genius" Osborne's nose for a vote winner appears to be deserting him. After pissing off around half his parties supporters with this EURef fiasco, he now pulls the "upto 129 fold increase in death duties" rabbit out of his hat.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/12164010/Grieving-families-could-be-forced-to-pay-a-new-death-tax.html

    Bereaved families could be forced to pay what amounts to a new death tax of up to £20,000, under Government plans.
    Ministers claimed the changes to the system of probate fees charged to activate a will would be fairer to poorer families by ensuring that many would no longer have to pay.
    But for some families it amounts to a potential 129-fold increase in costs as part of a scheme to intended to raise £250 million for the Exchequer.
    Dave and George seem to feel its time to ditch those nasty right of centre voters and appeal to the Wodger Tendency.

    "Those worth more than £500,000 – now just under the average London house price – would incur a charge of £4,000 rising to £8,000 for those worth over £1 million and £20,000 at the top end for estates amounting to over £2 million"


    Cry me a river...



    If the Tories are not going to stand up for the middle classes then who will? This is a bad road to go down, the government should be looking to eliminate inheritance tax entirely rather than ramp it up.

    - Only 1% of estates will pay the top rate; £20k on a £2million house isn't bad.
    - The lower limit for no probate fee is going up from £5k to £50k, meaning 60% of estates now won't incur any cost - that's much more protecting the middle class.
    - The government has already cut inheritance tax on properties.
    60% of estates are sub 50k ?

    I find that weird considering practically any house or flat in the country is worth at least 60k.

    Husbands and wives typically own property as joint tenants. If one dies, you just send a copy of the Death Certificate to the Land Registry. You don't need Probate.
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    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.
    I don't think so, certainly not the invasion itself which was largely British planned and the number of troops involved was about equal between the Brits and the Yanks with the Canadians making up the balance. It was, however, the last hurrah of the British army as later in the Normandy campaign the massive superiority of US numbers came to eclipse the UK contribution.
    The Wikipedia article cites slightly more American troops than British but the overwhelming preponderance of naval units supporting was British, as was a majority of air cover.
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    rcs1000 said:

    runnymede said:

    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.

    Too many US movies being watched...

    IIRC it was about 50% Americans, 35% British, 15% Commonwealth, but I could be wrong
    British land commander, British sea commander (most navy forces British) and British air commander.

    And British/Canadian army doing the vast majority of the heavy fighting against the SS Panzer divisions around Caen whilst the Americans leisurely cleared up the Cherbourg peninsula.

    Runnymede is right: if you believe the US movies all the Brits were back in the UK waiting for the yanks to save them all.
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    Has Boris "come off the fence" today yet, as he promised to do?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,760

    rcs1000 said:

    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    Although if we're going to be honest, that was more of an American operation than a British one.

    We can claim the Battle of Britain however!

    With a bit of Polish, Czech & Commonwealth help.
    There were even one or two French fliers I believe.

    But the vast, vast majority were British,
    There were also, whisper it, twenty or thirty Belgian fighter pilots flying in the RAF during the BoB.
    Yes, but they'd just got lost.

    Orginally they'd volunteered to fly Messerschmidts
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,871

    runnymede said:

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.

    Well the actual equivalent of that would be a great thing, but this looks more like Arnhem

    Arnhem was "A Bridge Too Far" (about 3/4 bridges into German occupied territory); Cameron has barely put a few tentative steps onto the first bridge..
    Yep. Cameron's efforts are more like Dieppe.
    Cameron's efforts are more like the fall of Tobruk or Singapore.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'Yep. Cameron's efforts are more like Dieppe.'

    You are right - I flattered him.

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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,109
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    To say nothing of the Battle of Britain and Trafalgar.
    Don't forget the Anglo-Zanzibar war.
    The Opium Wars - a high point...
    Off to CiF with you for a week!
    He'll come back lauding the Battle of Orgreave against the hated dictator.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I'd think Waterloo beats out Dunkirk as famous British military action.
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    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Laura K put it well - he told us he was happy with the draft weeks ago and that he would join on that basis. But now he is having to give up his sausage, egg, chips and beans (and a slice) because that draft has evidently been watered down dramatically.

    How can that be portrayed as a victory?

    We portrayed the evacuation at Dunkerque as a truly great victory.
    No we didn't. From Churchill's Dunkirk speech: "We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations."
    Some of the media did.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/dunkirk/774417.stm
    That's the media for you. Dunkirk spirit everywhere.
    Makes us proud to be British that our two most famous military exploits were Dunkirk, which was a retreat, and the Charge of the Light Brigade, which was a fiasco.
    Normandy is more famous than both of those put together.
    To say nothing of the Battle of Britain and Trafalgar.
    Don't forget the Anglo-Zanzibar war.
    The Opium Wars - a high point...
    That's worthy of exile to ConHome
    I'm disappointed we failed to open a can of whoop-ass on the USA in the war of 1812.

    Ok, we burnt the White House but that was due to crass American incompetence. We could have grabbed Maine and Vermont for Canada.
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    Pulpstar said:

    Why is Rudd trending on Twitter - has she been wheeled out as the latest human shield for Dave ?

    Apparently poor performance on Radio 4 this morning.

    I think she was spinning Dave's performance as the greatest victory by an Old Etonian Tory PM since the Battle of Waterloo
    No, she played a pretty straight bat. On-message, certainly, but articulate. She'll have come over well to non-partisan listeners.

    Obviously the usual suspects will hate her, but that's because she's in favour of us remaining in the EU.

    I'm happy with my 80-1 on her for next leader.
This discussion has been closed.