'The same people who said the EU was only an economic trade project? The same people who said it was vital to join the euro? The same ones who said Lisbon was only a tidying up of treaties??'
That's right - the people who are always wrong about everything.
EU immigration has cost British working class people money through wage depression and unemployment for the last decade, its not nonsense
Arguably so, but that's not an argument to leave the EU if we remain signed up to freedom of movement, which looks extremely likely since the Leave side haven't developed any alternative. Nor is the migration crisis particularly relevant to EU immigration into the UK, but the Leave side try to elide the two.
The people in Germany because of the migration crisis are the future citizens of the EU... why are people waving this away as if, because its 5,6,7,8 years away or whatever, it doesn't matter?
In 20-30 years time, the EU will look a lot more like North Africa and the Middle East thanks to Merkel, and if we stay in, so will we
I am working on the basis that all the polls will overstate remain as we know 'us oldies' are more likely to fulfil our civic duty than our more yooful fellow citizens.
Wait until Dave says Brexit threatens pensions. The oldies will back Remain and the polls underestimate Remain.
That's a very good point. Of course that'll happen.
Baffled I hadn't thought of it.
Brexit threatens the NHS, Pensions, Strictly, X-factor, the Premier League, house prices, pubs, soaps, and cheap shopping at Primark.
Have I missed anything?
Bingo, Senior Railcards, OAP discounts at the hairdressers, coach trips..
It's a risky strategy (because it could help reinforce the Project Fear message) but I think what Leave should do is try (if they've quite finished fighting amongst themselves) and get out there and refute and satirise the likely scaremongering tactics before Remain even try and use them.
That way, when they are used, people will be prepared for them, and it will greatly diminish the shock value.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The silly claims about immigration and terrorism come mainly from the Leave side, and the Remain side will want to neutralise them as much as they can since they are potent politically (albeit mostly nonsense). Neutralising them by pointing out dry facts, such as the fact that a million migrants in Germany are not about to turn up here, and have no right to come here, is not very effective since this is an argument about emotion, perception, and images on TV screens. So I expect a lot more silly claims on this subject (on both sides).
I don't think you are right about the bankers and jobs argument. Yes, banks are not popular, but there's going to be a very steady flow of reasonable-sounding people, with no axe to grind, appearing on TV saying British jobs are at risk. Expect this to increase in intensity as soon as the deal is announced. Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
EU immigration has cost British working class people money through wage depression and unemployment for the last decade, its not nonsense
As for the terrorism fear, well who would have predicted what is going on in Germany now was remotely possible a year ago?
If the EU didn't exist, neither would the Jungle in Calais
Bull! Unless it was because all the people in Calais were in the UK already (like Cameron claimed) why would that not exist?
Do you think people would miraculously stop crossing into Europe? Or would people miraculously stop wanting to reach England?
Think the chart has a typo - Remain on 54, not 55?
I think the finding that people are sure Remain will win has an insidious effect on Leave - it's discouraging well-known Tory MPs from breaking cover (there aren't many who cheerfully embrace lost causes), and that in turn is probably going to affect voting intention too. People who are sure that their cause is unpopular and think it's led by squabbling nonentities may be less likely to vote.
Decent poll for Labour, incidentally. Not actively beating each up every day may be a good idea.
On the other hand, I know one MP who is publically for Leave, but privately thinks it would be a mistake. His constituency chairman is so much an "Out-ter" that he fears for his job should he go for Remain.
There will - of course - be people who are privately for Out, but who fear for career advancement if they back it.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The silly claims about immigration and terrorism come mainly from the Leave side, and the Remain side will want to neutralise them as much as they can since they are potent politically (albeit mostly nonsense). Neutralising them by pointing out dry facts, such as the fact that a million migrants in Germany are not about to turn up here, and have no right to come here, is not very effective since this is an argument about emotion, perception, and images on TV screens. So I expect a lot more silly claims on this subject (on both sides).
I don't think you are right about the bankers and jobs argument. Yes, banks are not popular, but there's going to be a very steady flow of reasonable-sounding people, with no axe to grind, appearing on TV saying British jobs are at risk. Expect this to increase in intensity as soon as the deal is announced. Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
Correct. And they will sow doubt everywhere - jobs, pensions, visa-free travel, UK residents and home-owners in EU countries, house values in the UK, sterling crises, inward investment etc etc etc. Remain does not have to prove any of these would be threatened by Brexit - they merely have to arouse fears that they MIGHT be threatened.
Time to recommend a lay for Boris Johnson or Bottler Boris as he may soon become.The are good underlying reasons for doing so.Firstly,the trend in the Tory leadership advises to avoid the 1st 2 in the market at any rate at this stage.Secondly is the power of the Eddie Mair interview-"you're a nasty piece of work,aren't you?"-more effective than Trident.Thirdly,he's simply not PM material.Take out all the old Etonian bias,he's not competent.3 reasons to lay Boris Johnson because his behaviour over EURef is playing out to type-he's a waste of space. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2654214/Police-chiefs-set-spend-220-000-buying-controversial-water-cannon-Germany-not-allowed-use-Britain-yet.html
Bull! Unless it was because all the people in Calais were in the UK already (like Cameron claimed) why would that not exist?
Do you think people would miraculously stop crossing into Europe? Or would people miraculously stop wanting to reach England?
And even more to the point, even if the people turning up at Calais are there entirely because the EU makes it possible, how on earth would the UK leaving the EU make an iota of difference? The EU is still going to exist. Schengen may or may not survive, but the UK leaving the EU won't make a jot of difference to whether it does.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The silly claims about immigration and terrorism come mainly from the Leave side, and the Remain side will want to neutralise them as much as they can since they are potent politically (albeit mostly nonsense). Neutralising them by pointing out dry facts, such as the fact that a million migrants in Germany are not about to turn up here, and have no right to come here, is not very effective since this is an argument about emotion, perception, and images on TV screens. So I expect a lot more silly claims on this subject (on both sides).
I don't think you are right about the bankers and jobs argument. Yes, banks are not popular, but there's going to be a very steady flow of reasonable-sounding people, with no axe to grind, appearing on TV saying British jobs are at risk. Expect this to increase in intensity as soon as the deal is announced. Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
EU immigration has cost British working class people money through wage depression and unemployment for the last decade, its not nonsense
As for the terrorism fear, well who would have predicted what is going on in Germany now was remotely possible a year ago?
If the EU didn't exist, neither would the Jungle in Calais
Bull! Unless it was because all the people in Calais were in the UK already (like Cameron claimed) why would that not exist?
Do you think people would miraculously stop crossing into Europe? Or would people miraculously stop wanting to reach England?
Amazing that the establishment candidates have fallen to just 25% of the vote and almost all of it to Rubio. Nevada votes for the Dems on Saturday, and Tuesday for the GOP. It's a caucus though with notorious low turnout and machine politics.
It's a risky strategy (because it could help reinforce the Project Fear message) but I think what Leave should do is try (if they've quite finished fighting amongst themselves) and get out there and refute and satirise the likely scaremongering tactics before Remain even try and use them.
That way, when they are used, people will be prepared for them, and it will greatly diminish the shock value.
They may even laugh at them.
I don't think the Remain side will go OTT (although the Leave side will accuse them of doing so, of course). It will be more a steady drip of sowing doubt, which, given the lack of definition of the alternative, should be fairly easy.
Incidentally, the most striking thing about the government's role in this is how thorough they are being in making preparations to build the case. On the thread last night there was much talk of Cameron panicking, but he's not panicking: he's being very systematic, and he and the No 10 team are doing a lot of detailed work on the message. So much for 'essay-crisis Cameron'.
I wasn't expecting this, I thought he'd remain rather aloof from the campaign. I was quite wrong on that.
Oh god. I really can't stomach four months of this bilge.
To paraphrase you "Vote Remain, or Britain Gets It!"
When England's greatest politician, the Rt Hon J.Enoch Powell, said
"We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependants, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant-descended population. It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre"
...he might as well have been talking about the EU and the migrant crisis. Why are people so wilfully blind that they cannot see this? In a generation or so the children and families of the people who have forced themselves onto Germany and the rest of northern Europe will be the main producers of EU citizens, and as evidenced by the ghettos all over the continent, including large parts of English cities, they wont integrate, and that lack of integration will be bad for all of us
Note that his predictions of the immigrant populations of London, Wolverhampton, Birmingham etc were derided at the time by the establishment and their cronies (despite the public overwhelmingly agreeing with him). As is always the case, now he has been proved right on the numbers, it is un PC to say that those numbers are a bad thing, despite no one wanting them at the time
In 25 years kids will be asking "Did they really used to speak English in East London?"
hen all the indications are that Britain will vote to stay in on pretty much any terms?
As for Labour and anti-Semitism, it pains me to say this but anti-Semitism - often disguised as anti-Zionism (though not all anti-Zionists are anti-Semites, anti-Zionism has been seized upon by anti-Semites to justify or disguise their own bigotry) is now fashionable again amongst some - or, at least, no longer so reviled as it once was.
It is the oldest, most enduring, pernicious and harmful bigotry there is. And it is no surprise to see it endure and mutate even in liberal democratic UK or in other liberal democratic countries in Europe. Very very depressing and saddening news, though.
Yes, it needs to be stamped on. Update on this from Labour Friends of Israel: Labour Students, the national organisation to which OULC belongs, has announced it is launching an investigation – a move welcomed by the Labour Party. In a statement, Labour Students said: “We unequivocally condemn any form of antisemitism. We are taking these allegations very seriously and will do whatever is necessary to ensure every Labour club is a safe space for Jewish students.”
Scottish Gov say set up costs of new welfare powers may be £660m. They once said entire set up costs for independence would only be £250m!
The only thing that's sustaining my will to live through referendum thread part 330 of several thousand is the absence of SNP zealots. Why did you have to write this? Why? You might just as well stand in front of the bathroom mirror chanting "Candyman".
It's a risky strategy (because it could help reinforce the Project Fear message) but I think what Leave should do is try (if they've quite finished fighting amongst themselves) and get out there and refute and satirise the likely scaremongering tactics before Remain even try and use them.
That way, when they are used, people will be prepared for them, and it will greatly diminish the shock value.
They may even laugh at them.
I don't think the Remain side will go OTT (although the Leave side will accuse them of doing so, of course). It will be more a steady drip of sowing doubt, which, given the lack of definition of the alternative, should be fairly easy.
Incidentally, the most striking thing about the government's role in this is how thorough they are being in making preparations to build the case. On the thread last night there was much talk of Cameron panicking, but he's not panicking: he's being very systematic, and he and the No 10 team are doing a lot of detailed work on the message. So much for 'essay-crisis Cameron'.
I wasn't expecting this, I thought he'd remain rather aloof from the campaign. I was quite wrong on that.
Oh god. I really can't stomach four months of this bilge.
To paraphrase you "Vote Remain, or Britain Gets It!"
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The silly claims about immigration and terrorism come mainly from the Leave side, and the Remain side will want to neutralise them as much as they can since they are potent politically (albeit mostly nonsense). Neutralising them by pointing out dry facts, such as the fact that a million migrants in Germany are not about to turn up here, and have no right to come here, is not very effective since this is an argument about emotion, perception, and images on TV screens. So I expect a lot more silly claims on this subject (on both sides).
I don't think you are right about the bankers and jobs argument. Yes, banks are not popular, but there's going to be a very steady flow of reasonable-sounding people, with no axe to grind, appearing on TV saying British jobs are at risk. Expect this to increase in intensity as soon as the deal is announced. Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
EU immigration has cost British working class people money through wage depression and unemployment for the last decade, its not nonsense
As for the terrorism fear, well who would have predicted what is going on in Germany now was remotely possible a year ago?
If the EU didn't exist, neither would the Jungle in Calais
Bull! Unless it was because all the people in Calais were in the UK already (like Cameron claimed) why would that not exist?
Do you think people would miraculously stop crossing into Europe? Or would people miraculously stop wanting to reach England?
Border checks
What border checks? The UK already has border checks with France which is why they're in Calais not Dover.
While European border checks are already being broken past through a porous and indefensible border (just like Mexicans illegally getting into the USA).
So what's going to change? France's border is indefensible, if people can illegally get into Italy or Spain across the water then they'll be able to illegally get into France and make their way to Calais whether border checks are there or not.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The silly claims about immigration and terrorism come mainly from the Leave side, and the Remain side will want to neutralise them as much as they can since they are potent politically (albeit mostly nonsense). Neutralising them by pointing out dry facts, such as the fact that a million migrants in Germany are not about to turn up here, and have no right to come here, is not very effective since this is an argument about emotion, perception, and images on TV screens. So I expect a lot more silly claims on this subject (on both sides).
I don't think you are right about the bankers and jobs argument. Yes, banks are not popular, but there's going to be a very steady flow of reasonable-sounding people, with no axe to grind, appearing on TV saying British jobs are at risk. Expect this to increase in intensity as soon as the deal is announced. Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
EU immigration has cost British working class people money through wage depression and unemployment for the last decade, its not nonsense
As for the terrorism fear, well who would have predicted what is going on in Germany now was remotely possible a year ago?
If the EU didn't exist, neither would the Jungle in Calais
Bull! Unless it was because all the people in Calais were in the UK already (like Cameron claimed) why would that not exist?
Do you think people would miraculously stop crossing into Europe? Or would people miraculously stop wanting to reach England?
Border checks
What border checks? The UK already has border checks with France which is why they're in Calais not Dover.
While European border checks are already being broken past through a porous and indefensible border (just like Mexicans illegally getting into the USA).
So what's going to change? France's border is indefensible, if people can illegally get into Italy or Spain across the water then they'll be able to illegally get into France and make their way to Calais whether border checks are there or not.
It's a risky strategy (because it could help reinforce the Project Fear message) but I think what Leave should do is try (if they've quite finished fighting amongst themselves) and get out there and refute and satirise the likely scaremongering tactics before Remain even try and use them.
That way, when they are used, people will be prepared for them, and it will greatly diminish the shock value.
They may even laugh at them.
I don't think the Remain side will go OTT (although the Leave side will accuse them of doing so, of course). It will be more a steady drip of sowing doubt, which, given the lack of definition of the alternative, should be fairly easy.
Incidentally, the most striking thing about the government's role in this is how thorough they are being in making preparations to build the case. On the thread last night there was much talk of Cameron panicking, but he's not panicking: he's being very systematic, and he and the No 10 team are doing a lot of detailed work on the message. So much for 'essay-crisis Cameron'.
I wasn't expecting this, I thought he'd remain rather aloof from the campaign. I was quite wrong on that.
Oh god. I really can't stomach four months of this bilge.
I just glaze over when I read his posts. If the other side were 'doing a lot of detailed work on the message' he would be accusing them of dog whistling and low politics. In Cameron such activity seems to be worthy of dewy-eyed admiration. This Cameron devotion bordering on psychosis makes his posts less worth reading than Flightpath's to me. At least Flightpath occasionally veers off message when his programming has a malfunction. With Richard you may was well write 'insert nicely written Cameron apologia here' and save yourself some time.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The silly claims about immigration and terrorism come mainly from the Leave side, and the Remain side will want to neutralise them as much as they can since they are potent politically (albeit mostly nonsense). Neutralising them by pointing out dry facts, such as the fact that a million migrants in Germany are not about to turn up here, and have no right to come here, is not very effective since this is an argument about emotion, perception, and images on TV screens. So I expect a lot more silly claims on this subject (on both sides).
I don't think you are right about the bankers and jobs argument. Yes, banks are not popular, but there's going to be a very steady flow of reasonable-sounding people, with no axe to grind, appearing on TV saying British jobs are at risk. Expect this to increase in intensity as soon as the deal is announced. Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
EU immigration has cost British working class people money through wage depression and unemployment for the last decade, its not nonsense
As for the terrorism fear, well who would have predicted what is going on in Germany now was remotely possible a year ago?
If the EU didn't exist, neither would the Jungle in Calais
Bull! Unless it was because all the people in Calais were in the UK already (like Cameron claimed) why would that not exist?
Do you think people would miraculously stop crossing into Europe? Or would people miraculously stop wanting to reach England?
Border checks
What border checks? The UK already has border checks with France which is why they're in Calais not Dover.
While European border checks are already being broken past through a porous and indefensible border (just like Mexicans illegally getting into the USA).
So what's going to change? France's border is indefensible, if people can illegally get into Italy or Spain across the water then they'll be able to illegally get into France and make their way to Calais whether border checks are there or not.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The silly claims about immigration and terrorism come mainly from the Leave side, and the Remain side will want to neutralise them as much as they can since they are potent politically (albeit mostly nonsense). Neutralising them by pointing out dry facts, such as the fact that a million migrants in Germany are not about to turn up here, and have no right to come here, is not very effective since this is an argument about emotion, perception, and images on TV screens. So I expect a lot more silly claims on this subject (on both sides).
I don't think you are right about the bankers and jobs argument. Yes, banks are not popular, but there's going to be a very steady flow of reasonable-sounding people, with no axe to grind, appearing on TV saying British jobs are at risk. Expect this to increase in intensity as soon as the deal is announced. Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
EU immigration has cost British working class people money through wage depression and unemployment for the last decade, its not nonsense
As for the terrorism fear, well who would have predicted what is going on in Germany now was remotely possible a year ago?
If the EU didn't exist, neither would the Jungle in Calais
Bull! Unless it was because all the people in Calais were in the UK already (like Cameron claimed) why would that not exist?
Do you think people would miraculously stop crossing into Europe? Or would people miraculously stop wanting to reach England?
Border checks
What border checks? The UK already has border checks with France which is why they're in Calais not Dover.
While European border checks are already being broken past through a porous and indefensible border (just like Mexicans illegally getting into the USA).
So what's going to change? France's border is indefensible, if people can illegally get into Italy or Spain across the water then they'll be able to illegally get into France and make their way to Calais whether border checks are there or not.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
And this is the problem for the pro-EU side in a nutshell. You should be seeking to win the argument so that, post this referendum, the argument is settled. Instead, Cameron seems to be going for a grudging acceptance because the alternative is unclear.
This will not solve the issue as the EU changes and Britain continues to find itself continually outvoted. All it is doing is kicking the issue further down the road. It will not "dock" the UK in the EU unless you think a dock needs handcuffs. Fear is not a good basis for an ongoing and fruitful relationship.
Cameron is going for short-term tactics over long-term strategy.
And so this argument will be resurrected when something happens that outrages people and that they realise they are unable to stop despite the renegotiated deal protecting our interests. Let's say: the outlawing of overdrafts, say, following a QMV-passed vote by the Eurozone
If we're going to Remain, it ought to be in the interests of those who say it is in Britain's interests for us to do so on a positive manifesto not out of fear. People can ultimately get over their fear. Nothing good or long-lasting is built on fear and doubt.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
The silly claims about immigration and terrorism come mainly from the Leave side, and the Remain side will want to neutralise them as much as they can since they are potent politically (albeit mostly nonsense). Neutralising them by pointing out dry facts, such as the fact that a million migrants in Germany are not about to turn up here, and have no right to come here, is not very effective since this is an argument about emotion, perception, and images on TV screens. So I expect a lot more silly claims on this subject (on both sides).
I don't think you are right about the bankers and jobs argument. Yes, banks are not popular, but there's going to be a very steady flow of reasonable-sounding people, with no axe to grind, appearing on TV saying British jobs are at risk. Expect this to increase in intensity as soon as the deal is announced. Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
EU immigration has cost British working class people money through wage depression and unemployment for the last decade, its not nonsense
As for the terrorism fear, well who would have predicted what is going on in Germany now was remotely possible a year ago?
If the EU didn't exist, neither would the Jungle in Calais
Bull! Unless it was because all the people in Calais were in the UK already (like Cameron claimed) why would that not exist?
Do you think people would miraculously stop crossing into Europe? Or would people miraculously stop wanting to reach England?
Border checks
What border checks? The UK already has border checks with France which is why they're in Calais not Dover.
While European border checks are already being broken past through a porous and indefensible border (just like Mexicans illegally getting into the USA).
So what's going to change? France's border is indefensible, if people can illegally get into Italy or Spain across the water then they'll be able to illegally get into France and make their way to Calais whether border checks are there or not.
What border checks? The UK already has border checks with France which is why they're in Calais not Dover.
While European border checks are already being broken past through a porous and indefensible border (just like Mexicans illegally getting into the USA).
So what's going to change? France's border is indefensible, if people can illegally get into Italy or Spain across the water then they'll be able to illegally get into France and make their way to Calais whether border checks are there or not.
border checks at every country in the EU
Will achieve the square-root of nothing just like all the border checks they're already sneaking past. You forget it's impossible for these migrants to get into Schengen without illegally avoiding border checks already and once that's done they can very easily get across other borders illegally too if they existed too.
The French border is nothing like ours. It is not defensible.
It's a risky strategy (because it could help reinforce the Project Fear message) but I think what Leave should do is try (if they've quite finished fighting amongst themselves) and get out there and refute and satirise the likely scaremongering tactics before Remain even try and use them.
That way, when they are used, people will be prepared for them, and it will greatly diminish the shock value.
They may even laugh at them.
I don't think the Remain side will go OTT (although the Leave side will accuse them of doing so, of course). It will be more a steady drip of sowing doubt, which, given the lack of definition of the alternative, should be fairly easy.
Incidentally, the most striking thing about the government's role in this is how thorough they are being in making preparations to build the case. On the thread last night there was much talk of Cameron panicking, but he's not panicking: he's being very systematic, and he and the No 10 team are doing a lot of detailed work on the message. So much for 'essay-crisis Cameron'.
I wasn't expecting this, I thought he'd remain rather aloof from the campaign. I was quite wrong on that.
Oh god. I really can't stomach four months of this bilge.
I rather think I agree with you, Mr. T. I am certain I have read the same "arguments" from the same people at least two dozen times and those same people remain deaf to any responses before reposting the same stuff again, and again.
The site has become a bore and is only rescued by occasional flashes of brilliance from the likes of Mr. Cole, who gave us a great winner last week (alas too late for me to get a bet on - not his fault, but being a rural, cash-only punter imposes time and space limitations).
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
And this is the problem for the pro-EU side in a nutshell. You should be seeking to win the argument so that, post this referendum, the argument is settled. Instead, Cameron seems to be going for a grudging acceptance because the alternative is unclear.
This will not solve the issue as the EU changes and Britain continues to find itself continually outvoted. All it is doing is kicking the issue further down the road. It will not "dock" the UK in the EU unless you think a dock needs handcuffs. Fear is not a good basis for an ongoing and fruitful relationship.
Cameron is going for short-term tactics over long-term strategy.
And so this argument will be resurrected when something happens that outrages people and that they realise they are unable to stop despite the renegotiated deal protecting our interests. Let's say: the outlawing of overdrafts, say, following a QMV-passed vote by the Eurozone
If we're going to Remain, it ought to be in the interests of those who say it is in Britain's interests for us to do so on a positive manifesto not out of fear. People can ultimately get over their fear. Nothing good or long-lasting is built on fear and doubt.
Can you honestly imagine any argument possible that will not see this argument resurrected before long?
hen all the indications are that Britain will vote to stay in on pretty much any terms?
As for Labour and anti-Semitism, it pains me to say this but anti-Semitism - often disguised as anti-Zionism (though not all anti-Zionists are anti-Semites, anti-Zionism has been seized upon by anti-Semites to justify or disguise their own bigotry) is now fashionable again amongst some - or, at least, no longer so reviled as it once was.
It is the oldest, most enduring, pernicious and harmful bigotry there is. And it is no surprise to see it endure and mutate even in liberal democratic UK or in other liberal democratic countries in Europe. Very very depressing and saddening news, though.
Yes, it needs to be stamped on. Update on this from Labour Friends of Israel: Labour Students, the national organisation to which OULC belongs, has announced it is launching an investigation – a move welcomed by the Labour Party. In a statement, Labour Students said: “We unequivocally condemn any form of antisemitism. We are taking these allegations very seriously and will do whatever is necessary to ensure every Labour club is a safe space for Jewish students.”
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
And this is the problem for the pro-EU side in a nutshell. You should be seeking to win the argument so that, post this referendum, the argument is settled. Instead, Cameron seems to be going for a grudging acceptance because the alternative is unclear.
This will not solve the issue as the EU changes and Britain continues to find itself continually outvoted. All it is doing is kicking the issue further down the road. It will not "dock" the UK in the EU unless you think a dock needs handcuffs. Fear is not a good basis for an ongoing and fruitful relationship.
Cameron is going for short-term tactics over long-term strategy.
And so this argument will be resurrected when something happens that outrages people and that they realise they are unable to stop despite the renegotiated deal protecting our interests. Let's say: the outlawing of overdrafts, say, following a QMV-passed vote by the Eurozone
If we're going to Remain, it ought to be in the interests of those who say it is in Britain's interests for us to do so on a positive manifesto not out of fear. People can ultimately get over their fear. Nothing good or long-lasting is built on fear and doubt.
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.
@Cyclefree - I'm not sure who 'you' refers to, I'm not campaigning for anyone. Nor do I particularly support the Remain side; I shall be voting for Remain for the reasons I've given, but that's a different matter.
On the substantive point, I don't really agree. The vast majority of voters don't do a detailed analysis of the pros and cons. They can be and are swayed by image and emotion. Leave are selling them a false prospectus based on pretending we can have everything we want from the EU and nothing we don't want, Remain will seek to torpedo that prospectus with doubt. Leave are also playing on fear, most notably on immigration, but also on ever-closer union.
On the wider point, if we vote leave, none of the core issues will be settled. Exactly the same debate, on exactly the same set of issues, will drag on for at least two years while we try to negotiate a new deal with the EU.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
And this is the problem for the pro-EU side in a nutshell. You should be seeking to win the argument so that, post this referendum, the argument is settled. Instead, Cameron seems to be going for a grudging acceptance because the alternative is unclear.
This will not solve the issue as the EU changes and Britain continues to find itself continually outvoted. All it is doing is kicking the issue further down the road. It will not "dock" the UK in the EU unless you think a dock needs handcuffs. Fear is not a good basis for an ongoing and fruitful relationship.
Cameron is going for short-term tactics over long-term strategy.
And so this argument will be resurrected when something happens that outrages people and that they realise they are unable to stop despite the renegotiated deal protecting our interests. Let's say: the outlawing of overdrafts, say, following a QMV-passed vote by the Eurozone
If we're going to Remain, it ought to be in the interests of those who say it is in Britain's interests for us to do so on a positive manifesto not out of fear. People can ultimately get over their fear. Nothing good or long-lasting is built on fear and doubt.
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.
Or misled. That's just compounding the errors of the past. Britain will be outvoted on pretty much everything by the Eurozone. The EZ will vote as a bloc. We are only one state. So if we remain we have to understand that we have no way of stopping anything we don't like or which harms us. And as the EZ becomes more and more of a state, which is the intention, that dominance and our increasingly isolated and weak position inside the EU will only get more pronounced.
Now there may be advantages that outweigh this. If so, let's hear about them. And about why they outweigh the disadvantages. But let's not pretend that this isn't what Remain means.*
@Cyclefree - I'm not sure who 'you' refers to, I'm not campaigning for anyone. Nor do I particularly support the Remain side; I shall be voting for Remain for the reasons I've given, but that's a different matter.
On the substantive point, I don't really agree. The vast majority of voters don't do a detailed analysis of the pros and cons. They can be and are swayed by image and emotion. Leave are selling them a false prospectus based on pretending we can have everything we want from the EU and nothing we don't want, Remain will seek to torpedo that prospectus with doubt. Leave are also playing on fear, most notably on immigration, but also on ever-closer union.
On the wider point, if we vote leave, none of the core issues will be settled. Exactly the same debate, on exactly the same set of issues, will drag on for at least two years while we try to negotiate a new deal with the EU.
The EU recently concluded a trade deal with Colombia. Did they demand the Colombians accept freedom of movement with the EU? Or any EU strictures? No. It was a trade deal. Based on...er.....trade.
So the Cameron renegotiation fiasco has had a MoE effect on the polls and the number of people who think Remain will win has increased?
It's almost as if people were not paying attention. Colour me surprised.
Leave need some newsworthy and sane leadership with a clear vision of What Happens Next. Time is running out. Unless it comes this weekend (from senior cabinet members let off the leash) I fear this is all over.
It's a risky strategy (because it could help reinforce the Project Fear message) but I think what Leave should do is try (if they've quite finished fighting amongst themselves) and get out there and refute and satirise the likely scaremongering tactics before Remain even try and use them.
That way, when they are used, people will be prepared for them, and it will greatly diminish the shock value.
They may even laugh at them.
I don't think the Remain side will go OTT (although the Leave side will accuse them of doing so, of course). It will be more a steady drip of sowing doubt, which, given the lack of definition of the alternative, should be fairly easy.
Incidentally, the most striking thing about the government's role in this is how thorough they are being in making preparations to build the case. On the thread last night there was much talk of Cameron panicking, but he's not panicking: he's being very systematic, and he and the No 10 team are doing a lot of detailed work on the message. So much for 'essay-crisis Cameron'.
I wasn't expecting this, I thought he'd remain rather aloof from the campaign. I was quite wrong on that.
Oh god. I really can't stomach four months of this bilge.
I just glaze over when I read his posts. If the other side were 'doing a lot of detailed work on the message' he would be accusing them of dog whistling and low politics. In Cameron such activity seems to be worthy of dewy-eyed admiration. This Cameron devotion bordering on psychosis makes his posts less worth reading than Flightpath's to me. At least Flightpath occasionally veers off message when his programming has a malfunction. With Richard you may was well write 'insert nicely written Cameron apologia here' and save yourself some time.
lol. Yes. I agree. I might just have to file Nabavi under IGNORE TIL JULY.
Do you think he's being paid to churn out this crap? It's not like he's persuading anyone (nor is Meeks). Why would anyone take pains to produce such partisan garbage, for free? Bizarre.
I hope so! And invited to Chequers at the weekend for hunting and cosy fireside chats with Dave and Sam Cam with quite frankly. Anything else would be embarrassing.
So the Cameron renegotiation fiasco has had a MoE effect on the polls and the number of people who think Remain will win has increased?
It's almost as if people were not paying attention. Colour me surprised.
Leave need some newsworthy and sane leadership with a clear vision of What Happens Next. Time is running out. Unless it comes this weekend (from senior cabinet members let off the leash) I fear this is all over.
I don't expect any surprises this weekend.
I think the Government has put a lot of effort into sewing its own side up.
Miss Cyclefree, quite. I suspect we'll vote to stay in, then have constant eurozone policies voted through which also bind us and are detrimental to the UK, and short of another referendum there will be nothing we can do about it.
lol. Yes. I agree. I might just have to file Nabavi under IGNORE TIL JULY.
Do you think he's being paid to churn out this crap? It's not like he's persuading anyone (nor is Meeks). Why would anyone take pains to produce such partisan garbage, for free? Bizarre.
Your method of ignoring me seems to be to keep posting about me.
So the Cameron renegotiation fiasco has had a MoE effect on the polls and the number of people who think Remain will win has increased?
It's almost as if people were not paying attention. Colour me surprised.
Leave need some newsworthy and sane leadership with a clear vision of What Happens Next. Time is running out. Unless it comes this weekend (from senior cabinet members let off the leash) I fear this is all over.
Does 'not paying attention' = good for 'Remain'?
That wouldn't seem to be a foregone conclusion to me. Happy to be shown to be incorrect.
Or misled. That's just compounding the errors of the past. Britain will be outvoted on pretty much everything by the Eurozone. The EZ will vote as a bloc.
I've not yet heard a single person explain why exactly the EZ will vote as a bloc.
The EZ is not currently voting as a bloc, the EZ is not homogenous and it never will be. That is like suggesting that the UK is a bloc with people in Surrey and people in Cardiff and people in Glasgow all vote the same way. Rather than voting Tory, Labour or SNP as the case may be.
So the Cameron renegotiation fiasco has had a MoE effect on the polls and the number of people who think Remain will win has increased?
It's almost as if people were not paying attention. Colour me surprised.
Leave need some newsworthy and sane leadership with a clear vision of What Happens Next. Time is running out. Unless it comes this weekend (from senior cabinet members let off the leash) I fear this is all over.
I don't expect any surprises this weekend.
I think the Government has put a lot of effort into sewing its own side up.
I agree. I think Richard is taking a lot of very unfair flack on here about this.
The fact that Cameron doesn't like to do detail does not mean that he can't, particularly when the heat is on as it is right now. This will be sewn up tighter than the proverbial rats arse before it comes to the cabinet table.
Osborne was a while ago asking backbenchers and junior ministers whether they wanted to support Leave or have a career. I would frankly be surprised at this point if Cameron was being any less blunt. These 2 have not dominated UK politics for a decade by being nice.
It's a risky strategy (because it could help reinforce the Project Fear message) but I think what Leave should do is try (if they've quite finished fighting amongst themselves) and get out there and refute and satirise the likely scaremongering tactics before Remain even try and use them.
That way, when they are used, people will be prepared for them, and it will greatly diminish the shock value.
They may even laugh at them.
I don't think the Remain side will go OTT (although the Leave side will accuse them of doing so, of course). It will be more a steady drip of sowing doubt, which, given the lack of definition of the alternative, should be fairly easy.
Incidentally, the most striking thing about the government's role in this is how thorough they are being in making preparations to build the case. On the thread last night there was much talk of Cameron panicking, but he's not panicking: he's being very systematic, and he and the No 10 team are doing a lot of detailed work on the message. So much for 'essay-crisis Cameron'.
I wasn't expecting this, I thought he'd remain rather aloof from the campaign. I was quite wrong on that.
Oh god. I really can't stomach four months of this bilge.
I just glaze over when I read his posts. If the other side were 'doing a lot of detailed work on the message' he would be accusing them of dog whistling and low politics. In Cameron such activity seems to be worthy of dewy-eyed admiration. This Cameron devotion bordering on psychosis makes his posts less worth reading than Flightpath's to me. At least Flightpath occasionally veers off message when his programming has a malfunction. With Richard you may was well write 'insert nicely written Cameron apologia here' and save yourself some time.
lol. Yes. I agree. I might just have to file Nabavi under IGNORE TIL JULY.
Do you think he's being paid to churn out this crap? It's not like he's persuading anyone (nor is Meeks). Why would anyone take pains to produce such partisan garbage, for free? Bizarre.
If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
I am pretty sure have been allegations of this site being targeted by astroturfers many months/ years ago.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
And this is the problem for the pro-EU side in a nutshell. You should be seeking to win the argument so that, post this referendum, the argument is settled. Instead, Cameron seems to be going for a grudging acceptance because the alternative is unclear.
This will not solve the issue as the EU changes and Britain continues to find itself continually outvoted. All it is doing is kicking the issue further down the road. It will not "dock" the UK in the EU unless you think a dock needs handcuffs. Fear is not a good basis for an ongoing and fruitful relationship.
Cameron is going for short-term tactics over long-term strategy.
And so this argument will be resurrected when something happens that outrages people and that they realise they are unable to stop despite the renegotiated deal protecting our interests. Let's say: the outlawing of overdrafts, say, following a QMV-passed vote by the Eurozone
If we're going to Remain, it ought to be in the interests of those who say it is in Britain's interests for us to do so on a positive manifesto not out of fear. People can ultimately get over their fear. Nothing good or long-lasting is built on fear and doubt.
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.
So the Cameron renegotiation fiasco has had a MoE effect on the polls and the number of people who think Remain will win has increased?
It's almost as if people were not paying attention. Colour me surprised.
Leave need some newsworthy and sane leadership with a clear vision of What Happens Next. Time is running out. Unless it comes this weekend (from senior cabinet members let off the leash) I fear this is all over.
I don't expect any surprises this weekend.
I think the Government has put a lot of effort into sewing its own side up.
I think you're right. It seems to me the Government has put a lot more behind the scenes groundwork into this than anyone else has.
Miss Cyclefree, quite. I suspect we'll vote to stay in, then have constant eurozone policies voted through which also bind us and are detrimental to the UK, and short of another referendum there will be nothing we can do about it.
It's a rather despicable state of affairs.
Remember that the referendum lock remains in place. Any treaty or agreement that transfers more power to Europe is still going to trigger another referendum. Where all the disappointed Leavers will be saying we told you so.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
And this is the problem for the pro-EU side in a nutshell. You should be seeking to win the argument so that, post this referendum, the argument is settled. Instead, Cameron seems to be going for a grudging acceptance because the alternative is unclear.
This will not solve the issue as the EU changes and Britain continues to find itself continually outvoted. All it is doing is kicking the issue further down the road. It will not "dock" the UK in the EU unless you think a dock needs handcuffs. Fear is not a good basis for an ongoing and fruitful relationship.
Cameron is going for short-term tactics over long-term strategy.
And so this argument will be resurrected when something happens that outrages people and that they realise they are unable to stop despite the renegotiated deal protecting our interests. Let's say: the outlawing of overdrafts, say, following a QMV-passed vote by the Eurozone
If we're going to Remain, it ought to be in the interests of those who say it is in Britain's interests for us to do so on a positive manifesto not out of fear. People can ultimately get over their fear. Nothing good or long-lasting is built on fear and doubt.
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
Slightly disappointing poll for AfD although this pollster usually has them lower than the others:
AfD are about as meaningful as UKIP in Westminster. I don't get the obsession with them here, they are a complete wasted vote.
They're hardly an irrelevance if they get more than 5% of the vote, thus rendering the preferred coalition arrangements unviable (excluding the current grand coalition).
'Remember that the referendum lock remains in place. Any treaty or agreement that transfers more power to Europe is still going to trigger another referendum. Where all the disappointed Leavers will be saying we told you so.'
The referendum lock is meaningless. The government will simply deny there has been any transfer. Look what happened over the criminal justice opt-ins.
Slightly disappointing poll for AfD although this pollster usually has them lower than the others:
AfD are about as meaningful as UKIP in Westminster. I don't get the obsession with them here, they are a complete wasted vote.
They're hardly an irrelevance if they get more than 5% of the vote, thus making the usual coalition arrangements unviable (excluding the current grand coalition).
Unless they get basically over 50% coalition arrangements without them are always viable, especially since the grand coalition is the status quo.
What happens if London votes 2 to 1 in favour of Remain but the overall result is Leave?
We Leave, and London has to deal with it.
And a secessionist candidate storms to the Mayoralty in 2020.
Almost certainly not.
Besides which, London is the nation's capital and belongs to all of us. Not just the poncy international elite that live there and claim to speak for everyone.
Tidbits from Paris. Just off to meet with the farmers
- French Ambassador and Gus O'Donnell had a conversation about 2 weeks ago in a message was passed to G.O.D. (Presumably to be passed to Cameron). Post Brexit, the EU intends to make an unconditional offer to Scotland to join the EU on the same terms (+the Euro) as the UK currently has. This *may* explain Cameron's sudden panic
- My Paris contact (extremely close to people who know Cameron very well) says that he is a dipshit. Utterly thick and disconnected from the detail, which is why he gets tripped up so often. I quote precisely
- France is terrified that the UK will leave, and result in them facing Germany alone. The French block (Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece) has crumbled. Spain and Portugal are voting with Germany on everything to suck up. Italy is voting randomnly and unpredictably. Only Greece is reliably supporting France..and if you are in the same camp as Greece...
- Germany sees Brexit as a win/win. If the UK stays they have a net contributor and reliablish ally against France. If the UK leaves Western Europe looks more and more like the 4th Reich. The actual parallel this guy used was 1870...
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
And this is the problem for the pro-EU side in a nutshell. You should be seeking to win the argument so that, post this referendum, the argument is settled. Instead, Cameron seems to be going for a grudging acceptance because the alternative is unclear.
This will not solve the issue as the EU changes and Britain continues to find itself continually outvoted. All it is doing is kicking the issue further down the road. It will not "dock" the UK in the EU unless you think a dock needs handcuffs. Fear is not a good basis for an ongoing and fruitful relationship.
Cameron is going for short-term tactics over long-term strategy.
And so this argument will be resurrected when something happens that outrages people and that they realise they are unable to stop despite the renegotiated deal protecting our interests. Let's say: the outlawing of overdrafts, say, following a QMV-passed vote by the Eurozone
If we're going to Remain, it ought to be in the interests of those who say it is in Britain's interests for us to do so on a positive manifesto not out of fear. People can ultimately get over their fear. Nothing good or long-lasting is built on fear and doubt.
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
And this is the problem for the pro-EU side in a nutshell. You should be seeking to win the argument so that, post this referendum, the argument is settled. Instead, Cameron seems to be going for a grudging acceptance because the alternative is unclear.
This will not solve the issue as the EU changes and Britain continues to find itself continually outvoted. All it is doing is kicking the issue further down the road. It will not "dock" the UK in the EU unless you think a dock needs handcuffs. Fear is not a good basis for an ongoing and fruitful relationship.
Cameron is going for short-term tactics over long-term strategy.
And so this argument will be resurrected when something happens that outrages people and that they realise they are unable to stop despite the renegotiated deal protecting our interests. Let's say: the outlawing of overdrafts, say, following a QMV-passed vote by the Eurozone
If we're going to Remain, it ought to be in the interests of those who say it is in Britain's interests for us to do so on a positive manifesto not out of fear. People can ultimately get over their fear. Nothing good or long-lasting is built on fear and doubt.
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
You're like the EU. You won't accept the will of the people until they give the right result.
Tidbits from Paris. Just off to meet with the farmers
- French Ambassador and Gus O'Donnell had a conversation about 2 weeks ago in a message was passed to G.O.D. (Presumably to be passed to Cameron). Post Brexit, the EU intends to make an unconditional offer to Scotland to join the EU on the same terms (+the Euro) as the UK currently has. This *may* explain Cameron's sudden panic
- My Paris contact (extremely close to people who know Cameron very well) says that he is a dipshit. Utterly thick and disconnected from the detail, which is why he gets tripped up so often. I quote precisely
- France is terrified that the UK will leave, and result in them facing Germany alone. The French block (Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece) has crumbled. Spain and Portugal are voting with Germany on everything to suck up. Italy is voting randomnly and unpredictably. Only Greece is reliably supporting France..and if you are in the same camp as Greece...
- Germany sees Brexit as a win/win. If the UK stays they have a net contributor and reliablish ally against France. If the UK leaves Western Europe looks more and more like the 4th Reich. The actual parallel this guy used was 1870...
Fascinating. The Scotland thing could be a bluff, of course. But a clever one.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
And this is the problem for the pro-EU side in a nutshell. You should be seeking to win the argument so that, post this referendum, the argument is settled. Instead, Cameron seems to be going for a grudging acceptance because the alternative is unclear.
This will not solve the issue as the EU changes and Britain continues to find itself continually outvoted. All it is doing is kicking the issue further down the road. It will not "dock" the UK in the EU unless you think a dock needs handcuffs. Fear is not a good basis for an ongoing and fruitful relationship.
Cameron is going for short-term tactics over long-term strategy.
And so this argument will be resurrected when something happens that outrages people and that they realise they are unable to stop despite the renegotiated deal protecting our interests. Let's say: the outlawing of overdrafts, say, following a QMV-passed vote by the Eurozone
If we're going to Remain, it ought to be in the interests of those who say it is in Britain's interests for us to do so on a positive manifesto not out of fear. People can ultimately get over their fear. Nothing good or long-lasting is built on fear and doubt.
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
So the Cameron renegotiation fiasco has had a MoE effect on the polls and the number of people who think Remain will win has increased?
It's almost as if people were not paying attention. Colour me surprised.
Leave need some newsworthy and sane leadership with a clear vision of What Happens Next. Time is running out. Unless it comes this weekend (from senior cabinet members let off the leash) I fear this is all over.
I don't expect any surprises this weekend.
I think the Government has put a lot of effort into sewing its own side up.
I agree. I think Richard is taking a lot of very unfair flack on here about this.
The fact that Cameron doesn't like to do detail does not mean that he can't, particularly when the heat is on as it is right now. This will be sewn up tighter than the proverbial rats arse before it comes to the cabinet table.
Osborne was a while ago asking backbenchers and junior ministers whether they wanted to support Leave or have a career. I would frankly be surprised at this point if Cameron was being any less blunt. These 2 have not dominated UK politics for a decade by being nice.
It's good cop, bad cop. Cameron does the heart stuff, the optics and the vision. And Osborne is a total ****.
On a different note, if they'd put as much effort into the EU negotiation as they have into corralling their own party one does wonder if this deal might not in fact be quite a bit better.
Tidbits from Paris. Just off to meet with the farmers
- French Ambassador and Gus O'Donnell had a conversation about 2 weeks ago in a message was passed to G.O.D. (Presumably to be passed to Cameron). Post Brexit, the EU intends to make an unconditional offer to Scotland to join the EU on the same terms (+the Euro) as the UK currently has. This *may* explain Cameron's sudden panic
- My Paris contact (extremely close to people who know Cameron very well) says that he is a dipshit. Utterly thick and disconnected from the detail, which is why he gets tripped up so often. I quote precisely
- France is terrified that the UK will leave, and result in them facing Germany alone. The French block (Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece) has crumbled. Spain and Portugal are voting with Germany on everything to suck up. Italy is voting randomnly and unpredictably. Only Greece is reliably supporting France..and if you are in the same camp as Greece...
- Germany sees Brexit as a win/win. If the UK stays they have a net contributor and reliablish ally against France. If the UK leaves Western Europe looks more and more like the 4th Reich. The actual parallel this guy used was 1870...
Very interesting, thanks!
Nothing ever changes does it? The Russians and Turks are on the edge of war, the French are trying to use the Scots as a lever against Britain, the Germans are preparing for world domination (nice this time) again - there really is nothing new under the sun.
Tidbits from Paris. Just off to meet with the farmers
- French Ambassador and Gus O'Donnell had a conversation about 2 weeks ago in a message was passed to G.O.D. (Presumably to be passed to Cameron). Post Brexit, the EU intends to make an unconditional offer to Scotland to join the EU on the same terms (+the Euro) as the UK currently has. This *may* explain Cameron's sudden panic
- My Paris contact (extremely close to people who know Cameron very well) says that he is a dipshit. Utterly thick and disconnected from the detail, which is why he gets tripped up so often. I quote precisely
- France is terrified that the UK will leave, and result in them facing Germany alone. The French block (Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece) has crumbled. Spain and Portugal are voting with Germany on everything to suck up. Italy is voting randomnly and unpredictably. Only Greece is reliably supporting France..and if you are in the same camp as Greece...
- Germany sees Brexit as a win/win. If the UK stays they have a net contributor and reliablish ally against France. If the UK leaves Western Europe looks more and more like the 4th Reich. The actual parallel this guy used was 1870...
Is there a single person at the Foreign Office who supports Brexit? I'd be amazed if there was.
Tidbits from Paris. Just off to meet with the farmers
- French Ambassador and Gus O'Donnell had a conversation about 2 weeks ago in a message was passed to G.O.D. (Presumably to be passed to Cameron). Post Brexit, the EU intends to make an unconditional offer to Scotland to join the EU on the same terms (+the Euro) as the UK currently has. This *may* explain Cameron's sudden panic
- My Paris contact (extremely close to people who know Cameron very well) says that he is a dipshit. Utterly thick and disconnected from the detail, which is why he gets tripped up so often. I quote precisely
- France is terrified that the UK will leave, and result in them facing Germany alone. The French block (Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece) has crumbled. Spain and Portugal are voting with Germany on everything to suck up. Italy is voting randomnly and unpredictably. Only Greece is reliably supporting France..and if you are in the same camp as Greece...
- Germany sees Brexit as a win/win. If the UK stays they have a net contributor and reliablish ally against France. If the UK leaves Western Europe looks more and more like the 4th Reich. The actual parallel this guy used was 1870...
Very interesting, thanks!
Nothing ever changes does it? The Russians and Turks are on the edge of war, the French are trying to use the Scots as a lever against Britain, the Germans are preparing for world domination (nice this time) again - there really is nothing new under the sun.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
A
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
You're like the EU. You won't accept the will of the people until they give the right result.
Why should I stop campaigning for what I believe is right? And unlike the EU it is for the people to make that decision, rather than stripping it away from them.
You forget: I didn't want this referendum and think it's a strategic error. My approach would have only been to call one once there was an overwhelming clamour to leave, with clear and consistent double digit poll leads.
I fear this one will close the issue down and lock us in for a long time.
What happens if London votes 2 to 1 in favour of Remain but the overall result is Leave?
We Leave, and London has to deal with it.
And a secessionist candidate storms to the Mayoralty in 2020.
Almost certainly not.
Besides which, London is the nation's capital and belongs to all of us. Not just the poncy international elite that live there and claim to speak for everyone.
So why are only people who live in London allowed to vote in Mayoral elections?
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
A
And so this argument will be resurrected when something happens that outrages people and that they realise they are unable to stop despite the renegotiated deal protecting our interests. Let's say: the outlawing of overdrafts, say, following a QMV-passed vote by the Eurozone
If we're going to Remain, it ought to be in the interests of those who say it is in Britain's interests for us to do so on a positive manifesto not out of fear. People can ultimately get over their fear. Nothing good or long-lasting is built on fear and doubt.
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
A
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
You're like the EU. You won't accept the will of the people until they give the right result.
Why should I stop campaigning for what I believe is right? And unlike the EU it is for the people to make that decision, rather than stripping it away from them.
You forget: I didn't want this referendum and think it's a strategic error. My approach would have only been to call one once there was an overwhelming clamour to leave, with clear and consistent double digit poll leads.
I fear this one will close the issue down and lock us in for a long time.
There's a danger that leave end up looking like sore losers and as a country we don't like sore losers.
Clamouring for another referendum and losing it really will keep us in the EU for a generation.
Tidbits from Paris. Just off to meet with the farmers
- French Ambassador and Gus O'Donnell had a conversation about 2 weeks ago in a message was passed to G.O.D. (Presumably to be passed to Cameron). Post Brexit, the EU intends to make an unconditional offer to Scotland to join the EU on the same terms (+the Euro) as the UK currently has. This *may* explain Cameron's sudden panic
- My Paris contact (extremely close to people who know Cameron very well) says that he is a dipshit. Utterly thick and disconnected from the detail, which is why he gets tripped up so often. I quote precisely
- France is terrified that the UK will leave, and result in them facing Germany alone. The French block (Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece) has crumbled. Spain and Portugal are voting with Germany on everything to suck up. Italy is voting randomnly and unpredictably. Only Greece is reliably supporting France..and if you are in the same camp as Greece...
- Germany sees Brexit as a win/win. If the UK stays they have a net contributor and reliablish ally against France. If the UK leaves Western Europe looks more and more like the 4th Reich. The actual parallel this guy used was 1870...
Wow. That's fascinating.
Doesn't look like Cameron has tried very hard, does it?
Tidbits from Paris. Just off to meet with the farmers
- French Ambassador and Gus O'Donnell had a conversation about 2 weeks ago in a message was passed to G.O.D. (Presumably to be passed to Cameron). Post Brexit, the EU intends to make an unconditional offer to Scotland to join the EU on the same terms (+the Euro) as the UK currently has. This *may* explain Cameron's sudden panic
- My Paris contact (extremely close to people who know Cameron very well) says that he is a dipshit. Utterly thick and disconnected from the detail, which is why he gets tripped up so often. I quote precisely
- France is terrified that the UK will leave, and result in them facing Germany alone. The French block (Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece) has crumbled. Spain and Portugal are voting with Germany on everything to suck up. Italy is voting randomnly and unpredictably. Only Greece is reliably supporting France..and if you are in the same camp as Greece...
- Germany sees Brexit as a win/win. If the UK stays they have a net contributor and reliablish ally against France. If the UK leaves Western Europe looks more and more like the 4th Reich. The actual parallel this guy used was 1870...
Thanks Charles
The mis-step from Dave was to be ill-advised. The description of him should not come as a huge surprise to anyone.
How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
A
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
You're like the EU. You won't accept the will of the people until they give the right result.
Why should I stop campaigning for what I believe is right? And unlike the EU it is for the people to make that decision, rather than stripping it away from them.
You forget: I didn't want this referendum and think it's a strategic error. My approach would have only been to call one once there was an overwhelming clamour to leave, with clear and consistent double digit poll leads.
I fear this one will close the issue down and lock us in for a long time.
There's a danger that leave end up looking like sore losers and as a country we don't like sore losers.
Clamouring for another referendum and losing it really will keep us in the EU for a generation.
I will consider tactics carefully after the referendum result is announced. I won't do anything counterproductive.
But the fact we're even discussing this is why I was so worried about holding a referendum and losing it in the first place.
So far, they haven't been doing a very good job (it doesn't mean they won't do so in the future). They either make silly claims about immigration and terrorism, or else they think that threats from bankers to move jobs abroad will sway the population (banks being about as popular as herpes at the moment).
Remember, Remain don't have to win this argument, they just need to sow doubt.
A
If people feel they've been blackmailed into voting Remain, then I agree that it's unlikely to settle the issue.
For me, this issue will never be settled until we Leave. Nor will the ancient divide in the Conservative Party over Europe.
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
I wouldn't be so sure about the divide, so long as the result is divisive enough to settle it for a generation. Last time there was a referendum it was because of a divide in the Labour Party. Fast forward 30 years and Labour was fairly united on the subject.
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
No, it won't. There will be half the party voting Leave, 100 BOO MPs and 40% of the country. It won't be settled.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
You're like the EU. You won't accept the will of the people until they give the right result.
Why should I stop campaigning for what I believe is right? And unlike the EU it is for the people to make that decision, rather than stripping it away from them.
You forget: I didn't want this referendum and think it's a strategic error. My approach would have only been to call one once there was an overwhelming clamour to leave, with clear and consistent double digit poll leads.
I fear this one will close the issue down and lock us in for a long time.
There's a danger that leave end up looking like sore losers and as a country we don't like sore losers.
Clamouring for another referendum and losing it really will keep us in the EU for a generation.
What happens if London votes 2 to 1 in favour of Remain but the overall result is Leave?
We Leave, and London has to deal with it.
And a secessionist candidate storms to the Mayoralty in 2020.
Almost certainly not.
Besides which, London is the nation's capital and belongs to all of us. Not just the poncy international elite that live there and claim to speak for everyone.
So why are only people who live in London allowed to vote in Mayoral elections?
Mixing two points: (1) London won't elect an independence mayor; they'll elect someone who they think can make the best of Brexit and (2) in the very unlikely event London did elect such a mayor, the rest of the country would rightly tell them to sod off
There's a debate to be had about further devolution of powers. But London has no right to be independent as our ancient capital.
How is that any different to Labour in the seventies? And yet by the nineties and noughties the Labour Party was pretty united and we spoke of Tory divisions.
The Tory party has been moving in an increasingly eurosceptic direction for over 20 years. Given the changes on the horizon for the EU, and what we know of UK politics at the moment, i can't see that changing.
Who saw it changing last time either? But change it did.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
The only changes that are coming are yet more unification. I have no idea what you can see but whatever it is doesn't seem to match reality.
Comments
That's right - the people who are always wrong about everything.
In 20-30 years time, the EU will look a lot more like North Africa and the Middle East thanks to Merkel, and if we stay in, so will we
A million last year, perhaps two to three million this. Plus dependants in due course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cctc-bA7BQ
Do you think people would miraculously stop crossing into Europe? Or would people miraculously stop wanting to reach England?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2654214/Police-chiefs-set-spend-220-000-buying-controversial-water-cannon-Germany-not-allowed-use-Britain-yet.html
Strong lead for REMAIN (= Labour) round about Christmas/New Year
Then, the LEAVE side (= Tories) eating into their lead during the spring.
Then we will have all the
useful idiotspolitical pundits predicting it will be too close to call come Referendum Day (=Election Day)A shock exit poll leads to Eddie Izzard threatening to eat his stilettos (=Paddy Ashdown threatening to eat his hat )
Followed by the realisation that LEAVE (=Tories) will win an overall majority!
Trump 45
Rubio 19
Cruz 17
Carson 7
Kasich 5
Bush 1
Hillary 48
Sanders 47
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2016/images/02/17/topnv1.pdf
Amazing that the establishment candidates have fallen to just 25% of the vote and almost all of it to Rubio.
Nevada votes for the Dems on Saturday, and Tuesday for the GOP.
It's a caucus though with notorious low turnout and machine politics.
Scottish Gov say set up costs of new welfare powers may be £660m. They once said entire set up costs for independence would only be £250m!
LEAVE = Britain
REMAIN = Brussels
"We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependants, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant-descended population. It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre"
...he might as well have been talking about the EU and the migrant crisis. Why are people so wilfully blind that they cannot see this? In a generation or so the children and families of the people who have forced themselves onto Germany and the rest of northern Europe will be the main producers of EU citizens, and as evidenced by the ghettos all over the continent, including large parts of English cities, they wont integrate, and that lack of integration will be bad for all of us
Note that his predictions of the immigrant populations of London, Wolverhampton, Birmingham etc were derided at the time by the establishment and their cronies (despite the public overwhelmingly agreeing with him). As is always the case, now he has been proved right on the numbers, it is un PC to say that those numbers are a bad thing, despite no one wanting them at the time
In 25 years kids will be asking "Did they really used to speak English in East London?"
'A few decades ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs. Please don't let Kevin Bacon die.'
As an aside, is that 2.5 your odds, or the millions you think will come?
While European border checks are already being broken past through a porous and indefensible border (just like Mexicans illegally getting into the USA).
So what's going to change? France's border is indefensible, if people can illegally get into Italy or Spain across the water then they'll be able to illegally get into France and make their way to Calais whether border checks are there or not.
These aren't the EU reforms you're looking for?
Washington is in Co. Durham
This will not solve the issue as the EU changes and Britain continues to find itself continually outvoted. All it is doing is kicking the issue further down the road. It will not "dock" the UK in the EU unless you think a dock needs handcuffs. Fear is not a good basis for an ongoing and fruitful relationship.
Cameron is going for short-term tactics over long-term strategy.
And so this argument will be resurrected when something happens that outrages people and that they realise they are unable to stop despite the renegotiated deal protecting our interests. Let's say: the outlawing of overdrafts, say, following a QMV-passed vote by the Eurozone
If we're going to Remain, it ought to be in the interests of those who say it is in Britain's interests for us to do so on a positive manifesto not out of fear. People can ultimately get over their fear. Nothing good or long-lasting is built on fear and doubt.
The French border is nothing like ours. It is not defensible.
The site has become a bore and is only rescued by occasional flashes of brilliance from the likes of Mr. Cole, who gave us a great winner last week (alas too late for me to get a bet on - not his fault, but being a rural, cash-only punter imposes time and space limitations).
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/17/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-conservatives-leadership
No it's not unfair on Boris.
He's like husband who keeps on telling his mistress that he's going to leave his wife for her. But never does
.@FoxNews is so biased it is disgusting. They do not want Trump to win. All negative!
On the substantive point, I don't really agree. The vast majority of voters don't do a detailed analysis of the pros and cons. They can be and are swayed by image and emotion. Leave are selling them a false prospectus based on pretending we can have everything we want from the EU and nothing we don't want, Remain will seek to torpedo that prospectus with doubt. Leave are also playing on fear, most notably on immigration, but also on ever-closer union.
On the wider point, if we vote leave, none of the core issues will be settled. Exactly the same debate, on exactly the same set of issues, will drag on for at least two years while we try to negotiate a new deal with the EU.
Now there may be advantages that outweigh this. If so, let's hear about them. And about why they outweigh the disadvantages. But let's not pretend that this isn't what Remain means.*
*(Subject to the final deal, of course).
It's almost as if people were not paying attention. Colour me surprised.
Leave need some newsworthy and sane leadership with a clear vision of What Happens Next. Time is running out. Unless it comes this weekend (from senior cabinet members let off the leash) I fear this is all over.
I think the Government has put a lot of effort into sewing its own side up.
It's a rather despicable state of affairs.
That wouldn't seem to be a foregone conclusion to me. Happy to be shown to be incorrect.
The EZ is not currently voting as a bloc, the EZ is not homogenous and it never will be. That is like suggesting that the UK is a bloc with people in Surrey and people in Cardiff and people in Glasgow all vote the same way. Rather than voting Tory, Labour or SNP as the case may be.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/nv/nevada_democratic_presidential_caucus-5337.html
The fact that Cameron doesn't like to do detail does not mean that he can't, particularly when the heat is on as it is right now. This will be sewn up tighter than the proverbial rats arse before it comes to the cabinet table.
Osborne was a while ago asking backbenchers and junior ministers whether they wanted to support Leave or have a career. I would frankly be surprised at this point if Cameron was being any less blunt. These 2 have not dominated UK politics for a decade by being nice.
I am pretty sure have been allegations of this site being targeted by astroturfers many months/ years ago.
The only way this ends is if we Leave.
https://twitter.com/Wahlrecht_de/status/699867419704213504
If a week is a long time in politics, a generation is an eternity.
The referendum lock is meaningless. The government will simply deny there has been any transfer. Look what happened over the criminal justice opt-ins.
Besides which, London is the nation's capital and belongs to all of us. Not just the poncy international elite that live there and claim to speak for everyone.
And I wouldn't stop campaigning for an exit even if it were a landslide.
On a different note, if they'd put as much effort into the EU negotiation as they have into corralling their own party one does wonder if this deal might not in fact be quite a bit better.
Nothing ever changes does it? The Russians and Turks are on the edge of war, the French are trying to use the Scots as a lever against Britain, the Germans are preparing for world domination (nice this time) again - there really is nothing new under the sun.
Current polling is roughly
CDU/CSU - 34
SPD - 23
AfD - 12 (though lower in the most recent)
Grune - 10
Linke - 9.5
FPD - 5.5
That could only produce another CDU/CSU-SPD coalition, leaving AfD as the largest opposition party. No vote for a party in that position is wasted.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/austria/12155889/Austria-threatens-to-send-in-troops-to-stop-asylum-seekers.html
You forget: I didn't want this referendum and think it's a strategic error. My approach would have only been to call one once there was an overwhelming clamour to leave, with clear and consistent double digit poll leads.
I fear this one will close the issue down and lock us in for a long time.
It's when the Turks and Russians unite we should be worried.
It's gruesome and so incredibly brave to retell their stories. CBS Reality.
Clamouring for another referendum and losing it really will keep us in the EU for a generation.
Doesn't look like Cameron has tried very hard, does it?
The mis-step from Dave was to be ill-advised. The description of him should not come as a huge surprise to anyone.
The changes I see coming for the EU move the EU more in the Tory direction than the Delors/Labour direction that caused the shift last time but the future is not certain.
But the fact we're even discussing this is why I was so worried about holding a referendum and losing it in the first place.
The future of data storage. 13.8 billion year lifespan they say.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/five-dimensional-glass-discs-store-183747050.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb
LEAVE = Britain
REMAIN = Brussels
There's a debate to be had about further devolution of powers. But London has no right to be independent as our ancient capital.