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  • Indigo, thanks for that clip. Cameron at his best. Kills Labour with kindness.
  • Nick Soames is great on Twitter.

    I must say to be told how to vote in Referendum by J Redwood in an email to colleagues marks a new low in my life in the House #buggeroff

    Ugh. The more I hear from that pompous lardbucket the less I like him.
    Show some respect. He's the grandson of Sir Winston Churchill, Churchill was in favour of a United States of Europe.
    So was Hitler :lol:
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I didn't like that either, and changed my mind as a result of discussion here.

    I feel that I was wrong, and Cameron was right here.

    I disagree, I've little in common with Clegg and think Cameron has done the Tories proud in terms of modernisation and popularity.

    Those who like to keep defining their brand of Torism as the true way remind me of Corbynistas.

    I consider the Party to be a broad church owned by no faction.

    Indigo said:

    stodge said:

    Cameron called himself a "liberal conservative" once. Well, perhaps and he has to throw the occasional bone to the red-meat brigade but he's essentially a Liberal Democrat. On the EU, his policy of reform and re-negotiation has been LD policy for ages while the recent speech on penal reform could have been made by any Liberal Democrat leader and echoed none other than the late Roy Jenkins.

    No, while the state of the Liberal Democrat party leaves much to be desired, the triumph of liberalism (whether in Conservative or "New Labour" guise) is assured.

    Funny, a lot of the centre right have been saying that for a while, its the Nabavi centrists that have been telling everyone that will listen that he is a real conservative, no one is fooled, especially as you say with regard to his EU position. The only difference is having to put up with this idiotic dance of the seven veils as he tries to hold his overstretched "right-of-centre" coalition together. Aside from being a more blatant (i.e. honest) Europhile it would be hard to put a cigarette paper between Cameron and Clegg.

    My main concern is Cameron's respect for his party and its internal democracy. For example, I welcomed same sex marriage but did not like the way it was driven through by the Govt (without being in the manifesto), rather than quietly supporting a backbencher to take the lead. Same result just by different means.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,104
    Bizarre thread. Utterly bizarre. Not sure what is the more outlandish assertion.

    A The Tory claim that Hunt hasn't monumentally fucked up the junior doctors issue and has being playing this deliberately aggravating an entire profession and most of the population just to look tough.

    Or

    B.Stodges claim of a 20 year Liberal success. As if the 2015 GE result was somehow played for and won.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,487
    Well, a few responses to my previous and clearly one or two Conservatives in a state of denial but there you go...

    As for Tim, he's the first leader since Paddy of whom the activists can say "he's one of us" and he has, like Corbyn and Cameron, huge popularity within the Party activist rank and file and membership as distinct from his immediate parliamentary contemporaries.

    Let's be fair - Tim hasn't yet captured the public imagination but then nor did Paddy initially. So much about politics is luck - Paddy and the party gained enormously from the heinous murder of Ian Gow and the resulting successful capture of Eastbourne. Charles Kennedy had Romsey as his big break through.

    Nine months into a sixty month electoral cycle and it's easy to be downbeat but time and events are significant. The Government will hit a midterm trough in popularity - there will be gaffes, blunders, resignations and the like. It then becomes a question of being in the right place at the right time to reap the benefit.

    I do think the war for the soul of the Conservative Party is far from over and will be hugely influenced by the EU referendum outcome.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    NEW: Michael Fallon en route to Falkland Islands for 1st visit from Defence Sec since 2002 https://t.co/eEve81LjXA https://t.co/OG6SJdmu8A

    Is this an opportunity to highlight Corbyn's policy for the Falklands?
    A parliamentary group of MPs is due to visit the Falklands. Will Fallon's visit be at the same time? I think probably.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,026

    Nick Soames is great on Twitter.

    I must say to be told how to vote in Referendum by J Redwood in an email to colleagues marks a new low in my life in the House #buggeroff

    Ugh. The more I hear from that pompous lardbucket the less I like him.
    Show some respect. He's the grandson of Sir Winston Churchill, Churchill was in favour of a United States of Europe.
    So was Hitler :lol:
    The grandson of Winston Churchill?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    They'd have trouble with that argument in Wales.

    Imagine the Tories were running that shambles...
    MattW said:

    On a slightly more sophisticated note, is it a problem for Labour that they need to talk down the NHS as one of their few effective tools for attacking the Government?

  • Nick Soames is great on Twitter.

    I must say to be told how to vote in Referendum by J Redwood in an email to colleagues marks a new low in my life in the House #buggeroff

    Ugh. The more I hear from that pompous lardbucket the less I like him.
    Show some respect. He's the grandson of Sir Winston Churchill, Churchill was in favour of a United States of Europe.
    So was Hitler :lol:
    The grandson of Winston Churchill?
    Oops, I meant the United "States" of Europe bit :)
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I liked this

    #History: caricature #map of #Europe 1914. Classic but powerful History illustration - https://t.co/sjw2YRauUk https://t.co/cbjcHpRIqQ
  • SeanT said:

    Emma Thompson has come out for REMAIN. Apparently it would be madness, madness I tell you, if we left.

    Madness.

    MADNESS.

    An entire nation going into psychotic convulsions, having to bite down hard on the Isle of Man to prevent choking, or maybe chain itself to Greenland.

    @SeanT

    I've said it before and I'll say it again:

    Supporters of REMAIN are a far more pernicious and perfidious threat to the future of Britain than ISIL!
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Is Texas primary tonight?
  • Is Texas primary tonight?

    No
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    All of his posts feel like he's passing down tablets from the Mount.

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The anti-Lib Dem and anti-Farron jibes from the usual suspects are amusing as it betrays a total lack of political acumen and awareness.

    The Alliance has been in power since, arguably, 1990 and certainly 1997. Not the parties, of course, neither the Liberals nor the Social Democrats nor even the Liberal Democrats have managed to scale that peak but in truth the SDP has won the political war and I would imagine, apart from the Brown years, David Owen could have served comfortably in the Blair, Coalition and Cameron majority Governments.

    Cameron called himself a "liberal conservative" once. Well, perhaps and he has to throw the occasional bone to the red-meat brigade but he's essentially a Liberal Democrat. On the EU, his policy of reform and re-negotiation has been LD policy for ages while the recent speech on penal reform could have been made by any Liberal Democrat leader and echoed none other than the late Roy Jenkins.

    The irony is that while the Liberal party has never been weaker, its ideas and influence at the top of Government has never been stronger - with Cameron, it's Coalition 2.0 in all but name.

    The other unpleasant truth for Conservatives is they wouldn't have won without Cameron last year and once David departs, none of the rag tag and bobtail of aspiring successors (Boris excluded) has anything like the same appeal with the public.

    If Cameron defected and set up his own party, he'd probably poll 20%.

    No, while the state of the Liberal Democrat party leaves much to be desired, the triumph of liberalism (whether in Conservative or "New Labour" guise) is assured.

    That's a lot of typing for "it's not fair" or "voters are bastards".
    Spot on - he poses as the great neutral sage of 'liberalism' - but just another party hack - like the rest of us :)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,365

    Is Texas primary tonight?

    No
    Early voting for it starts tommorow, though.
  • stodge re: Farron.
    When he became your President his one big promise was to double the membership.
    He failed.

    Yes much of the membership are in love with him. But it is the voters he needs to attract and further losses in Wales , Scotland and English councils will start the questions on his Leadership. He also has that nasty leftie habit of hating opponents, he referred to Thatcher and Conservatives as evil.
  • Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    Why would anybody want to be Minister for Health? It would be like taking the Villa job on.

    For the same reason I expect, they hope they can avoid controversy for 6-9 months and then move on to a more prestigious job with a better department/team.
    Don't be absurd.
    I think I might be able to write a little markov-chain bot to replace Flightpath, so he can go and spend more time with his potting shed. It wouldn't have to be complicated, it just needs to tell everyone that they are "absurd", "childish", "pathetic", inserts random insults about "kippers" and cut and pastes bits from Conservative supporting articles whilst losing the line breaks and half the punctuation :)
    You would have to throw in Putin, Russia as well, with the odd cranky conspiracy attached.

    Although that might be any number of the odd loons and obsessives who post here.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    SeanT said:

    Emma Thompson has come out for REMAIN. Apparently it would be madness, madness I tell you, if we left.

    Madness.

    MADNESS.

    An entire nation going into psychotic convulsions, having to bite down hard on the Isle of Man to prevent choking, or maybe chain itself to Greenland.

    Affluent leftie luvvie comes out as pro-EU shocker!
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Thanks, I was wondering if I'd missed something.
    Pulpstar said:

    Is Texas primary tonight?

    No
    Early voting for it starts tommorow, though.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,026
    Indigo said:

    SeanT said:

    Emma Thompson has come out for REMAIN. Apparently it would be madness, madness I tell you, if we left.

    Madness.

    MADNESS.

    An entire nation going into psychotic convulsions, having to bite down hard on the Isle of Man to prevent choking, or maybe chain itself to Greenland.

    Affluent leftie luvvie comes out as pro-EU shocker!
    I'm devastated - I was hoping she'd be Nigel's warm up act at the next UKIP conference.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Totally OT What accent does the guy who voices Royal London adverts?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited February 2016
    SeanT said:

    ITV NewsVerified account
    @itvnews
    ITV News poll: Big rise in those who want Britain to leave Europe #EURef - full details http://bit.ly/1oE5UHJ

    "76% of those who back leaving said controlling migrant numbers was [the most important issue]".

    In the event of a Leave result, they ain't gonna be happy when they discover they've been conned.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Golly
    Forty-nine per cent of Britons would vote to remain in the EU if a referendum was held tomorrow, an ITV News poll conducted by ComRes suggests.

    However, the lead for the “remain” campaign has dropped from 18 points to eight since the last ComRes poll in January, with more people now saying they would back “Brexit”.
    SeanT said:

    ITV NewsVerified account
    @itvnews
    ITV News poll: Big rise in those who want Britain to leave Europe #EURef - full details http://bit.ly/1oE5UHJ

  • The OECD report on the NHS in the four home countries took a more nuanced approach.

    They'd have trouble with that argument in Wales.

    Imagine the Tories were running that shambles...

    MattW said:

    On a slightly more sophisticated note, is it a problem for Labour that they need to talk down the NHS as one of their few effective tools for attacking the Government?

  • SeanT said:

    ITV NewsVerified account
    @itvnews
    ITV News poll: Big rise in those who want Britain to leave Europe #EURef - full details http://bit.ly/1oE5UHJ

    Oh piss off, polling companies. I've just submitted my TotalPolitics piece for tomorrow and could do without them cocking it up. (Which, to be fair, this one doesn't other than 'two' polls since Cameron published his deal now being 'three', all of which show a swing to Leave).
  • SeanT said:

    ITV NewsVerified account
    @itvnews
    ITV News poll: Big rise in those who want Britain to leave Europe #EURef - full details http://bit.ly/1oE5UHJ

    "76% of those who back leaving said controlling migrant numbers was [the most important issue]".

    In the event of a Leave result, they ain't gonna be happy when they discover they've been conned.
    The fact 76% voting leave with that as the biggest reason is entirely why we will end up wirh an FTA, not in EEA.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I don't take any of your posts seriously as they either blame others, lie or deflect.

    Your side is never ever wrong. It's risible. You can’t even knock them.

    The OECD report on the NHS in the four home countries took a more nuanced approach.

    They'd have trouble with that argument in Wales.

    Imagine the Tories were running that shambles...

    MattW said:

    On a slightly more sophisticated note, is it a problem for Labour that they need to talk down the NHS as one of their few effective tools for attacking the Government?

  • SeanT said:

    Emma Thompson has come out for REMAIN. Apparently it would be madness, madness I tell you, if we left.

    Madness.

    MADNESS.

    An entire nation going into psychotic convulsions, having to bite down hard on the Isle of Man to prevent choking, or maybe chain itself to Greenland.

    Not surprised. Back in the early 2000s she was strongly in favour of the UK joining the Single currency as well. She is one of the more extreme Europhiles in the acting world and always has been.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Nick Soames is great on Twitter.

    I must say to be told how to vote in Referendum by J Redwood in an email to colleagues marks a new low in my life in the House #buggeroff

    Ugh. The more I hear from that pompous lardbucket the less I like him.
    Show some respect. He's the grandson of Sir Winston Churchill, Churchill was in favour of a United States of Europe.
    Wasn't he in favour for mainland Europe to be the United States of Europe and NOT Britain ?

    Come on Eagles,even I'm not that well informed on Con history but when remain (In's) fan boys start repeating the lie,he should be be brought up for it.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited February 2016

    The fact 76% voting leave with that as the biggest reason is entirely why we will end up wirh an FTA, not in EEA.

    Maybe, but I very much doubt it. The economic damage would just be too great.

    I do agree with you to the extent that the EEA option, which many on here have been touting, is the worst of all the three main options.

    But, as I've been saying for years, we should have had this debate before the referendum, not wake up on June 24th with everyone potentially asking 'what the hell have we voted for, exactly?"
  • What's the polling average for Brexit right now??

    Cameron must be panicking. He couldn't sell the 'deal' when his Eurosceptics were muzzled. How will he do it when they are touring TV studios??
  • Totally OT What accent does the guy who voices Royal London adverts?

    Gethin Alderman? Or is it a new ad campaign?
  • Nick Soames is great on Twitter.

    I must say to be told how to vote in Referendum by J Redwood in an email to colleagues marks a new low in my life in the House #buggeroff

    Ugh. The more I hear from that pompous lardbucket the less I like him.
    Show some respect. He's the grandson of Sir Winston Churchill, Churchill was in favour of a United States of Europe.
    I suspect Churchill would be turning in his grave hearing the drivel his grandson is spouting.
  • Mr. Die, perhaps sceptics will put off Leavers as Cameron is putting off the Remainers.
  • This cartoon certainly shows the Prime Minster has got some cheek in his negotiations:

    https://twitter.com/James7Holland/status/699270618706010113
  • The fact 76% voting leave with that as the biggest reason is entirely why we will end up wirh an FTA, not in EEA.

    Maybe, but I very much doubt it. The economic damage would just be too great.

    We have survived quite happily OUTSIDE the Euro for over 15 years. We can survive outside the EU.

  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    edited February 2016

    notme said:

    Indigo said:

    stodge said:

    Cameron called himself a "liberal conservative" once. Well, perhaps and he has to throw the occasional bone to the red-meat brigade but he's essentially a Liberal Democrat. On the EU, his policy of reform and re-negotiation has been LD policy for ages while the recent speech on penal reform could have been made by any Liberal Democrat leader and echoed none other than the late Roy Jenkins.

    No, while the state of the Liberal Democrat party leaves much to be desired, the triumph of liberalism (whether in Conservative or "New Labour" guise) is assured.

    Funny, a lot of the centre right have been saying that for a while, its the Nabavi centrists that have been telling everyone that will listen that he is a real conservative, no one is fooled, especially as you say with regard to his EU position. The only difference is having to put up with this idiotic dance of the seven veils as he tries to hold his overstretched "right-of-centre" coalition together. Aside from being a more blatant (i.e. honest) Europhile it would be hard to put a cigarette paper between Cameron and Clegg.

    If the leader of the Conservative party, who sits in the middle of its support (a tad more liberal, perhaps, but not much) is not a "real" conservative, you are using a definition of conservatism designed to produce that result.
    I would argue that this has been the most rightwing government since the Second World War.
    I could argue it has been the most Keynsian Government since 1978.
    Go on then.
    He maintained what was cyclically very high public spending during a period of the flat lining economy, with record levels of deficit spending, and only reducing public spending as the economy is growing, with an intention to reach a surplus before the cycle peaks...

    Whether he achieves the latter seems unlikely though.

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKp_15c1li011mcn_F0t
  • The fact 76% voting leave with that as the biggest reason is entirely why we will end up wirh an FTA, not in EEA.

    Maybe, but I very much doubt it. The economic damage would just be too great.

    I do agree with you to the extent that the EEA option, which many on here have been touting, is the worst of all the three main options.

    But, as I've been saying for years, we should have had this debate before the referendum, not wake up on June 24th with everyone potentially asking 'what the hell have we voted for, exactly?"
    I don't think EEA is worst of all three options. At least you have some savings from budget. Voice and regulation would be very similar.

    As for economic damage, you'd avoid it with FTA.
  • This cartoon certainly shows the Prime Minster has got some cheek in his negotiations:

    twitter.com/James7Holland/status/699270618706010113

    MIND BLEACH!!!!!!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited February 2016
    SeanT said:

    That's a phone poll showing a collapse in REMAIN's lead over LEAVE, down by half

    ALEURP'd that's a 2 point lead for Leave 51/49.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,944
    Oh my, a phone poll with such a small Remain lead is definitely good news for the Leave side. I think Dave's tactic of getting a shit deal and simply declaring victory is definitely backfiring. I think he would have been better off saying "look, I know this is a shit deal but the benefits of staying still outweigh the costs of leaving so I'm going to recommend remain". The act of trying to pull the wool over people's eyes seems to have been counter productive.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    The guy now whomever he is.

    Totally OT What accent does the guy who voices Royal London adverts?

    Gethin Alderman? Or is it a new ad campaign?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,365
    Alistair said:

    SeanT said:

    That's a phone poll showing a collapse in REMAIN's lead over LEAVE, down by half

    ALEURP'd that's a 2 point lead for Leave 51/49.
    What is your formula for ALEURP ?
  • The guy now whomever he is.

    Totally OT What accent does the guy who voices Royal London adverts?

    Gethin Alderman? Or is it a new ad campaign?
    https://www.google.co.uk/#q=royal+london+advert+actor

    Assuming it's Gethin, I guess he must be Welsh.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,365

    The fact 76% voting leave with that as the biggest reason is entirely why we will end up wirh an FTA, not in EEA.

    Maybe, but I very much doubt it. The economic damage would just be too great.

    I do agree with you to the extent that the EEA option, which many on here have been touting, is the worst of all the three main options.

    But, as I've been saying for years, we should have had this debate before the referendum, not wake up on June 24th with everyone potentially asking 'what the hell have we voted for, exactly?"
    Who knows ?

    That'll be up to the next Government. Personally I'm prepared to roll the dice.
  • I don't think EEA is worst of all three options. At least you have some savings from budget. Voice and regulation would be very similar.

    As for economic damage, you'd avoid it with FTA.

    You'd avoid it - eventually - with a free trade agreement giving us full access to the Single Market , PROVIDED it covered goods and services. The chances of being able to negotiate that, without free movement as well, are close to zero IMO. But what do I know? The Leave advocates have done absolutely nothing, nothing whatsoever, to explore how we might get such a deal, so I could be completely wrong. Who knows?

    In any case, either way we've got to get there. That's an absolute minimum of two years, probably more, of major economic dislocation which in the most optimistic scenario will plunge us into recesssion.

    You can quote me on that in two years' time.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    SeanT said:

    That's a phone poll showing a collapse in REMAIN's lead over LEAVE, down by half

    ALEURP'd that's a 2 point lead for Leave 51/49.
    What is your formula for ALEURP ?
    And what does it stand for? :)
  • Tremendous piece on modern "Big Data" campaigning:

    The Evening Standard understands that even Will Straw, the campaign’s chief executive, does not have access to the secret methods by which big data is used to identify target voters.

    “Will Straw just found out why he is not an MP,” boasts a Tory observer, wryly pointing out that Straw, son of Jack and regarded as a future Labour star, was one of the many Labour candidates who fought a key Labour target seat (Rossendale and Darwen, Tory majority of 5,654) only to find the Conservatives had somehow grabbed all the floating voters with a below-the-radar raid.


    http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/cant-decide-how-youll-vote-the-microelectioneers-already-know-a3180496.html
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,944

    SeanT said:

    ITV NewsVerified account
    @itvnews
    ITV News poll: Big rise in those who want Britain to leave Europe #EURef - full details http://bit.ly/1oE5UHJ

    "76% of those who back leaving said controlling migrant numbers was [the most important issue]".

    In the event of a Leave result, they ain't gonna be happy when they discover they've been conned.
    I think a few years of WTO governed trade might be where we are heading. It would be a big step into the unknown, yet I would still prefer that over remain. Over time companies would adjust and eventually the EU would have to make a free trade deal on our terms. We have a £120bn trade deficit with them, too many German and French jobs depend on that massive outflow of British cash into the continent. As always, money talks and we spend much more of it there than they do here.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,297
    edited February 2016

    Nick Soames is great on Twitter.

    I must say to be told how to vote in Referendum by J Redwood in an email to colleagues marks a new low in my life in the House #buggeroff

    Ugh. The more I hear from that pompous lardbucket the less I like him.
    Show some respect. He's the grandson of Sir Winston Churchill, Churchill was in favour of a United States of Europe.
    Wasn't he in favour for mainland Europe to be the United States of Europe and NOT Britain ?

    Come on Eagles,even I'm not that well informed on Con history but when remain (In's) fan boys start repeating the lie,he should be be brought up for it.
    The oft misquoted and doctored statement on Churchill's views on Europe was the following delivered in 1953:

    ""Where do we stand? We are not members of the European Defence Community, nor do we intend to be merged in a Federal European system. We feel we have a special relation to both. This can be expressed by prepositions, by the preposition "with" but not "of"—we are with them, but not of them. We have our own Commonwealth and Empire."

    This is a later refinement of another statement (in an article for a US newspaper) he made much earlier, prior to WW2 (1930) which is often transcribed into his later speech:

    “We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed.”
  • I don't think EEA is worst of all three options. At least you have some savings from budget. Voice and regulation would be very similar.

    As for economic damage, you'd avoid it with FTA.

    You'd avoid it - eventually - with a free trade agreement giving us full access to the Single Market , PROVIDED it covered goods and services. The chances of being able to negotiate that, without free movement as well, are close to zero IMO. But what do I know? The Leave advocates have done absolutely nothing, nothing whatsoever, to explore how we might get such a deal, so I could be completely wrong. Who knows?

    In any case, either way we've got to get there. That's an absolute minimum of two years, probably more, of major economic dislocation which in the most optimistic scenario will plunge us into recesssion.

    You can quote me on that in two years' time.
    I think we could be in EEA in meantime. However free trade in goods and services applies to existing EU FTAs without free movement. I doubt EU would even try to demand it in negotiations as would think matter settled. Main thing they would focus on is protecting EU citizens already here.

    More preparation would be good. But really it should be being donenby Civil Service contingency planning. Reckless of government to stop them doing it.
  • notme said:

    notme said:

    Indigo said:

    stodge said:

    Cameron called himself a "liberal conservative" once. Well, perhaps and he has to throw the occasional bone to the red-meat brigade but he's essentially a Liberal Democrat. On the EU, his policy of reform and re-negotiation has been LD policy for ages while the recent speech on penal reform could have been made by any Liberal Democrat leader and echoed none other than the late Roy Jenkins.

    No, while the state of the Liberal Democrat party leaves much to be desired, the triumph of liberalism (whether in Conservative or "New Labour" guise) is assured.

    Funny, a lot of the centre right have been saying that for a while, its the Nabavi centrists that have been telling everyone that will listen that he is a real conservative, no one is fooled, especially as you say with regard to his EU position. The only difference is having to put up with this idiotic dance of the seven veils as he tries to hold his overstretched "right-of-centre" coalition together. Aside from being a more blatant (i.e. honest) Europhile it would be hard to put a cigarette paper between Cameron and Clegg.

    If the leader of the Conservative party, who sits in the middle of its support (a tad more liberal, perhaps, but not much) is not a "real" conservative, you are using a definition of conservatism designed to produce that result.
    I would argue that this has been the most rightwing government since the Second World War.
    I could argue it has been the most Keynsian Government since 1978.
    Go on then.
    He maintained what was cyclically very high public spending during a period of the flat lining economy, with record levels of deficit spending, and only reducing public spending as the economy is growing, with an intention to reach a surplus before the cycle peaks...

    Whether he achieves the latter seems unlikely though.

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKp_15c1li011mcn_F0t
    The deficit has come down every year. The structural deficit has come down too not just cyclical. The fact that structural changes have combined with cyclical improvements recently is a bonus but doesn't mean all changes are cyclical. As should be obvious as we has a deficit before the recession.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Thanks

    The guy now whomever he is.

    Totally OT What accent does the guy who voices Royal London adverts?

    Gethin Alderman? Or is it a new ad campaign?
    https://www.google.co.uk/#q=royal+london+advert+actor

    Assuming it's Gethin, I guess he must be Welsh.
  • From the same piece:

    The next test will come on May 5. Some Labour figures see parallels between the Khan campaign and Labour’s failed general election strategy. “Goldsmith is being criticised for looking complacent but so was Cameron last year,” said one. “Sadiq is praised for looking more energetic but so was Ed. I do wonder if it could all end the same way.”

    The attacks on Zac we have seen - from the right, mostly - do seem to be a little partially-sighted. Though of course they also serve to hedge the Conservatives' bets - if Zac loses, they can chalk it down to him...
  • The fact 76% voting leave with that as the biggest reason is entirely why we will end up wirh an FTA, not in EEA.

    Maybe, but I very much doubt it. The economic damage would just be too great.

    I do agree with you to the extent that the EEA option, which many on here have been touting, is the worst of all the three main options.

    But, as I've been saying for years, we should have had this debate before the referendum, not wake up on June 24th with everyone potentially asking 'what the hell have we voted for, exactly?"
    EEA membership is only the worst if you believe the myths you have been touting on here.

    Otherwise it is by far the best option.
  • The oft misquoted and doctored statement on Churchill's views on Europe was the following delivered in 1953:

    He did however propose, and indeed try to implement, union with France:

    France and Great Britain shall no longer be two nations, but one Franco-British Union. The constitution of the Union will provide for joint organs of defence, foreign, financial and economic policies. Every citizen of France will enjoy immediately citizenship of Great Britain, every British subject will become a citizen of France.

    Admittedly in rather special circumstances!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-British_Union
  • MaxPB said:

    Oh my, a phone poll with such a small Remain lead is definitely good news for the Leave side. I think Dave's tactic of getting a shit deal and simply declaring victory is definitely backfiring. I think he would have been better off saying "look, I know this is a shit deal but the benefits of staying still outweigh the costs of leaving so I'm going to recommend remain". The act of trying to pull the wool over people's eyes seems to have been counter productive.

    Yes. Problem for Cameron is he didn't persuade anyone that deal was better than it was. But he DID reduce his credibility on all matters EU, which hurts him in making broader case.
  • Thanks

    The guy now whomever he is.

    Totally OT What accent does the guy who voices Royal London adverts?

    Gethin Alderman? Or is it a new ad campaign?
    https://www.google.co.uk/#q=royal+london+advert+actor

    Assuming it's Gethin, I guess he must be Welsh.
    This one :)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mluwEEBNAI
  • Mr. Nabavi, during the Crisis of the Third Century, Britannia, Gaul and Iberia were united in the western break-away Gallic Empire.

    Until Aurelian turned up and gave the upstart 'emperor' a slapping, of course.

    Brief quiz: under whom was the only political union between (the ancient equivalents of) France and Germany?
  • EEA membership is only the worst if you believe the myths you have been touting on here.

    Otherwise it is by far the best option.

    Yes I do believe the 'myths' as you call them, although 'facts' would be the more usual term.
  • I don't think EEA is worst of all three options. At least you have some savings from budget. Voice and regulation would be very similar.

    As for economic damage, you'd avoid it with FTA.

    You'd avoid it - eventually - with a free trade agreement giving us full access to the Single Market , PROVIDED it covered goods and services. The chances of being able to negotiate that, without free movement as well, are close to zero IMO. But what do I know? The Leave advocates have done absolutely nothing, nothing whatsoever, to explore how we might get such a deal, so I could be completely wrong. Who knows?

    In any case, either way we've got to get there. That's an absolute minimum of two years, probably more, of major economic dislocation which in the most optimistic scenario will plunge us into recesssion.

    You can quote me on that in two years' time.
    More Nabavi bollocks.

    During those 2 years we will still be members of the EU so nothing changes.

    This is yet another of those scare stories you eurofanatics like spreading.

    .... waits for the futile squeaking denial that Nabavi is a Eurofanatic.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    What are the Top Five benefits of EEA?

    The fact 76% voting leave with that as the biggest reason is entirely why we will end up wirh an FTA, not in EEA.

    Maybe, but I very much doubt it. The economic damage would just be too great.

    I do agree with you to the extent that the EEA option, which many on here have been touting, is the worst of all the three main options.

    But, as I've been saying for years, we should have had this debate before the referendum, not wake up on June 24th with everyone potentially asking 'what the hell have we voted for, exactly?"
    EEA membership is only the worst if you believe the myths you have been touting on here.

    Otherwise it is by far the best option.
  • LEAVE = Free French
    REMAIN = Vichy
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited February 2016


    More Nabavi bollocks.

    During those 2 years we will still be members of the EU so nothing changes.

    LOL! That is one of your funniest ever posts!

    "Nothing changes". Are you completely mad? You seriously don't think that a Leave result will have no effect on business confidence, sterling, and the stock exchange?

    Blimey. If you are that wilfully blind, that explains a lot.
  • EEA membership is only the worst if you believe the myths you have been touting on here.

    Otherwise it is by far the best option.

    Yes I do believe the 'myths' as you call them, although 'facts' would be the more usual term.
    You don't deal in facts. You deal in lies, myths and deception.

    I am more and more convinced you are planning for a career in politics.
  • You don't deal in facts. You deal in lies, myths and deception.

    I am more and more convinced you are planning for a career in politics.

    Even funnier!
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    They're superb memorable adverts.

    Thanks

    The guy now whomever he is.

    Totally OT What accent does the guy who voices Royal London adverts?

    Gethin Alderman? Or is it a new ad campaign?
    https://www.google.co.uk/#q=royal+london+advert+actor

    Assuming it's Gethin, I guess he must be Welsh.
    This one :)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mluwEEBNAI
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited February 2016
    I do not lie; neither Wales nor the NHS is my side. I am pointing out the OECD has just published a report evaluating the NHS in each of the four home countries. The report does, according to press coverage, contain praise and criticism but does not support your characterisation of the Welsh NHS as a shambles.

    I don't take any of your posts seriously as they either blame others, lie or deflect.

    Your side is never ever wrong. It's risible. You can’t even knock them.

    The OECD report on the NHS in the four home countries took a more nuanced approach.

    They'd have trouble with that argument in Wales.

    Imagine the Tories were running that shambles...

    MattW said:

    On a slightly more sophisticated note, is it a problem for Labour that they need to talk down the NHS as one of their few effective tools for attacking the Government?

  • Nick Soames is great on Twitter.

    I must say to be told how to vote in Referendum by J Redwood in an email to colleagues marks a new low in my life in the House #buggeroff

    Ugh. The more I hear from that pompous lardbucket the less I like him.
    Show some respect. He's the grandson of Sir Winston Churchill, Churchill was in favour of a United States of Europe.
    I suspect Churchill would be turning in his grave hearing the drivel his grandson is spouting.
    Isn't Nicholas Soames, Prince Charles's spy in the Commons? Or am I stating the obvious? He only appears in the Commons after a good lunch and then only for defence questions.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    notme said:

    notme said:

    Indigo said:

    stodge said:

    Cameron called himself a "liberal conservative" once. Well, perhaps and he has to throw the occasional bone to the red-meat brigade but he's essentially a Liberal Democrat. On the EU, his policy of reform and re-negotiation has been LD policy for ages while the recent speech on penal reform could have been made by any Liberal Democrat leader and echoed none other than the late Roy Jenkins.

    No, while the state of the Liberal Democrat party leaves much to be desired, the triumph of liberalism (whether in Conservative or "New Labour" guise) is assured.

    Funny, a lot of the centre right have been saying that for a while, its the Nabavi centrists that have been telling everyone that will listen that he is a real conservative, no one is fooled, especially as you say with regard to his EU position. The only difference is having to put up with this idiotic dance of the seven veils as he tries to hold his overstretched "right-of-centre" coalition together. Aside from being a more blatant (i.e. honest) Europhile it would be hard to put a cigarette paper between Cameron and Clegg.

    If the leader of the Conservative party, who sits in the middle of its support (a tad more liberal, perhaps, but not much) is not a "real" conservative, you are using a definition of conservatism designed to produce that result.
    I would argue that this has been the most rightwing government since the Second World War.
    I could argue it has been the most Keynsian Government since 1978.
    Go on then.
    He maintained what was cyclically very high public spending during a period of the flat lining economy, with record levels of deficit spending, and only reducing public spending as the economy is growing, with an intention to reach a surplus before the cycle peaks...

    Whether he achieves the latter seems unlikely though.

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKp_15c1li011mcn_F0t
    The deficit has come down every year. The structural deficit has come down too not just cyclical. The fact that structural changes have combined with cyclical improvements recently is a bonus but doesn't mean all changes are cyclical. As should be obvious as we has a deficit before the recession.
    Which is straight out of the Keynsian playbook... The recession ended the third quarter of 2009, and in the following six years we've only had two quarters of negative growth. If anything Keynes would be telling Osborne he needed to get his stuff together and closed the deficit ages ago.
  • Presumably we could wait a while before invoking Article 50?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    According to the Syrian Ambassador to Moscow..it was a US led coalition attack on the Syrian hospital..not Russian..W,hod a thunk it..just needs the coalition to produce their flight plans to make him look like a prick
  • Presumably we could wait a while before invoking Article 50?

    Yes, as long as we like, or never indeed. But in practice I can't see any government doing so.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Mr. Nabavi, during the Crisis of the Third Century, Britannia, Gaul and Iberia were united in the western break-away Gallic Empire.

    Until Aurelian turned up and gave the upstart 'emperor' a slapping, of course.

    Brief quiz: under whom was the only political union between (the ancient equivalents of) France and Germany?

    Charlemagne.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    You claim every week that Tories say Labour caused the global crisis in 2008.

    It's been rebutted dozens of times and you carry on convincing no one.

    I do not lie; neither Wales nor the NHS is my side. I am pointing out the OECD has just published a report evaluating the NHS in each of the four home countries. The report does, according to press coverage, contain praise and criticism but does not support your characterisation of the Welsh NHS as a shambles.

    I don't take any of your posts seriously as they either blame others, lie or deflect.

    Your side is never ever wrong. It's risible. You can’t even knock them.

    The OECD report on the NHS in the four home countries took a more nuanced approach.

    They'd have trouble with that argument in Wales.

    Imagine the Tories were running that shambles...

    MattW said:

    On a slightly more sophisticated note, is it a problem for Labour that they need to talk down the NHS as one of their few effective tools for attacking the Government?

  • Mr. M, yes :)

    Quite nice he was crowned Holy Roman Emperor on Christmas Day 800AD. A very neat date.

    The partition between his descendants was just plain stupid, though (think his son split it between Charlemagne's grandsons).
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Stephen Bush
    If you want Britain to stay in Europe, this is the bit of the poll that should worry you most. https://t.co/yFNKCQnVNE
  • OT -- 538 has updated its Oscar predictions in light of the BAFTAs.
    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/oscars-2016/
    (remember they had Brazil nailed on for the World Cup though)
  • You don't deal in facts. You deal in lies, myths and deception.

    I am more and more convinced you are planning for a career in politics.

    Even funnier!
    What is funny is the way the little credibility you once had has disappeared down the plug hole over the last few weeks.

    It does please me that in your reaction to Cameron's 'nongotiation' we have had such clear evidence of what I have said about you over the last couple of years.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Eh? We kept being told of double and triple dip recession after 2010.
    notme said:

    notme said:

    notme said:

    Indigo said:

    stodge said:

    Cameron called himself a "liberal conservative" once. Well, perhaps and he has to throw the occasional bone to the red-meat brigade but he's essentially a Liberal Democrat. Snip

    No, while the state of the Liberal Democrat party leaves much to be desired, the triumph of liberalism (whether in Conservative or "New Labour" guise) is assured.

    Funny, a lot of the centre right have been saying that for a while, its the Nabavi centrists that have been telling everyone that will listen that he is a real conservative, no one is fooled, especially as you say with regard to his EU position. The only difference is having to put up with this idiotic dance of the seven veils as he tries to hold his overstretched "right-of-centre" coalition together. Aside from being a more blatant (i.e. honest) Europhile it would be hard to put a cigarette paper between Cameron and Clegg.

    If the leader of the Conservative party, who sits in the middle of its support (a tad more liberal, perhaps, but not much) is not a "real" conservative, you are using a definition of conservatism designed to produce that result.
    I would argue that this has been the most rightwing government since the Second World War.
    I could argue it has been the most Keynsian Government since 1978.
    Go on then.
    He maintained what was cyclically very high public spending during a period of the flat lining economy, with record levels of deficit spending, and only reducing public spending as the economy is growing, with an intention to reach a surplus before the cycle peaks...

    Whether he achieves the latter seems unlikely though.

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKp_15c1li011mcn_F0t
    The deficit has come down every year. The structural deficit has come down too not just cyclical. The fact that structural changes have combined with cyclical improvements recently is a bonus but doesn't mean all changes are cyclical. As should be obvious as we has a deficit before the recession.
    Which is straight out of the Keynsian playbook... The recession ended the third quarter of 2009, and in the following six years we've only had two quarters of negative growth. If anything Keynes would be telling Osborne he needed to get his stuff together and closed the deficit ages ago.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Eh? We kept being told of double and triple dip recession after 2010.

    notme said:

    notme said:

    notme said:

    Indigo said:

    stodge said:

    Cameron called himself a "liberal conservative" once. Well, perhaps and he has to throw the occasional bone to the red-meat brigade but he's essentially a Liberal Democrat. Snip

    No, while the state of the Liberal Democrat party leaves much to be desired, the triumph of liberalism (whether in Conservative or "New Labour" guise) is assured.

    Funny, a lot of the centre right have been saying that for a while, its the Nabavi centrists that have been telling everyone that will listen that he is a real conservative, no one is fooled, especially as you say with regard to his EU position. The only difference is having to put up with this idiotic dance of the seven veils as he tries to hold his overstretched "right-of-centre" coalition together. Aside from being a more blatant (i.e. honest) Europhile it would be hard to put a cigarette paper between Cameron and Clegg.

    If the leader of the Conservative party, who sits in the middle of its support (a tad more liberal, perhaps, but not much) is not a "real" conservative, you are using a definition of conservatism designed to produce that result.
    I would argue that this has been the most rightwing government since the Second World War.
    I could argue it has been the most Keynsian Government since 1978.
    Go on then.


    Whether he achieves the latter seems unlikely though.

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKp_15c1li011mcn_F0t
    The deficit has come down every year. The structural deficit has come down too not just cyclical. The fact that structural changes have combined with cyclical improvements recently is a bonus but doesn't mean all changes are cyclical. As should be obvious as we has a deficit before the recession.
    Which is straight out of the Keynsian playbook... The recession ended the third quarter of 2009, and in the following six years we've only had two quarters of negative growth. If anything Keynes would be telling Osborne he needed to get his stuff together and closed the deficit ages ago.
    Well, the people of Morley and Outwood had their view of the main protagonist for those claims.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,167

    According to the Syrian Ambassador to Moscow..it was a US led coalition attack on the Syrian hospital..not Russian..W,hod a thunk it..just needs the coalition to produce their flight plans to make him look like a prick

    we will wait a while for that
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    And none for Indy, what a shocker

    Tim Shipman
    Press award nominations:
    22 Sunday Times
    19 Mail on Sunday
    18 The Times
    14 The Guardian
    12 Daily Mail
    10 Sun, Telegraph, Mirror, Standard
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Dearie me
    Corbyn's friends think the only reason he won't get elected is because the electoral system works against him. How convenient

    Tom Harris tears his hair out http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12157595/You-know-Labours-out-of-ideas-when-it-starts-talking-about-electoral-reform.html
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,906
    edited February 2016

    Mr. M, yes :)

    Quite nice he was crowned Holy Roman Emperor on Christmas Day 800AD. A very neat date.

    The partition between his descendants was just plain stupid, though (think his son split it between Charlemagne's grandsons).

    Treaty of Verdun, 843.

    Lothar got the middle bit (Low Countries, Lorraine, Alsace, Burgundy, Provence, Italy)
    Louis the German got er, Germany
    Charles the Bald got the rest of France.
  • And none for Indy, what a shocker

    Tim Shipman
    Press award nominations:
    22 Sunday Times
    19 Mail on Sunday
    18 The Times
    14 The Guardian
    12 Daily Mail
    10 Sun, Telegraph, Mirror, Standard

    The Indy had 8, and the IoS 3

    http://www.pressawards.org.uk/page-view.php?page_id=741&parent_page_id=0&news_id=85&numbertoprintfrom=1
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,338
    Remain leads by 8% in that poll and in England, Scotland and Wales. Leave leads by 4% in the Midlands however
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    According to the Syrian Ambassador to Moscow..it was a US led coalition attack on the Syrian hospital..not Russian..W,hod a thunk it..just needs the coalition to produce their flight plans to make him look like a prick

    What makes you think they can produce such a flight plan ? It will not be the first time. Just think of Afghanistan a few months back.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549


    More Nabavi bollocks.

    During those 2 years we will still be members of the EU so nothing changes.

    LOL! That is one of your funniest ever posts!

    "Nothing changes". Are you completely mad? You seriously don't think that a Leave result will have no effect on business confidence, sterling, and the stock exchange?

    Blimey. If you are that wilfully blind, that explains a lot.
    Only Sterling will go down the pan in the futures market. Just after midnight when the Pacific exchanges open , sterling will be in freefall.

    Some Brexit supporters may even like it. Proving we are really independent !
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    OT for weather and other watchers

    If you're wondering why it suddenly feels like the days are getting longer: https://t.co/WiZXZyBqUj (via @MrReidOrg) https://t.co/JpZeropYa1
  • OT for weather and other watchers

    If you're wondering why it suddenly feels like the days are getting longer: https://t.co/WiZXZyBqUj (via @MrReidOrg) https://t.co/JpZeropYa1

    The greatest rate of change is either side of the Equinoxes - days get longer by 4 minutes every day during mid-late March.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Surbiton What makes you think they wont have one...every flight is totally accounted for..but as it is mainly a US led coalition they will obviously be falsified..

  • More Nabavi bollocks.

    During those 2 years we will still be members of the EU so nothing changes.

    LOL! That is one of your funniest ever posts!

    "Nothing changes". Are you completely mad? You seriously don't think that a Leave result will have no effect on business confidence, sterling, and the stock exchange?

    Blimey. If you are that wilfully blind, that explains a lot.
    You seem rather rattled.
  • God, these polls give hope. And a little hope can be an intoxicating thing.

    Not good for my blood pressure.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Ipsos MORI
    Help to Buy has increased #ukhousing supply: New research for @Helptobuy @CommunitiesUK https://t.co/NiZVx4VhQ1
  • NEW THREAD
  • New Thread New Thread

  • You seem rather rattled.

    Yes, I am rattled in the sense that, if ostensibly intelligent people are planning to vote on this in complete delusion, then who knows what will happen.

    The ironic thing is that, speaking personally, I'd actually benefit from the economic dislocation.
This discussion has been closed.