Equally I am waiting for someone in the Shad Cab to show some guts and come out for Leave.
I don't think guts are relevant. They're not in favour of leaving, so why would they pretend to be? Probably Corbyn is the least enthusiastic, but he's probably fighting enough battles within the PLP at the moment without starting another one...
You were predicting the end of the world last Autumn. How did that turn out?
No I was not - I was predicting that from the start of October would be when things would start turning down. Well on the 1st October, Russia started bombing in Syria raising geo-political tensions in the Middle East. Tensions have been rising in Europe over the refugee crisis, and global economic worries have been rising as well......so I think my prediction dated from around May 2014 has worked out very well so far thank you.
...snip...
What does Russian military activity have to do with any 'cycles', or predictions? Looks more like a simple coincidence.
You can check out the record of the 1000 pi day cycle (3,141 days or 8.605 years - 23rd February 2007 was the day the index of subprime mortgage debt topped out, late 1998 was the Russian financial crisis, and late 1989 was the Japanese stockmarket top....so this cycle always seems to pick out something important. The war cycle is rising, Russia starting bombing in Syria on the turn date of 1st October last year was a mainfestation of that. Behind apparent chaos, there is a hidden order to events as cycles throughout history attest. Clearly by your attitude, you don't want to see that, in that case that's your loss not mine.
Rats and bats will crawl through the wainscoting, uttering their message of despair unto the people of Judah.
Who will be the first Cameroon to post tonight in a manner that suggests they have had better things to do all day and are staying uber calm while all the Eurosceptics get over excited?
I am no Cameroon, but I think Dave has handled this very badly. His pretend deal has managed to annoy both the Leavers and the existing Remainers (who were in a majority).
The Leavers would not be happy even if Dave had the EU commissioners licking his boots ( see the bastard getting his boots cleaned for free...) but the Remainers in the LDs, SNP, PC and Labour are not impressed by his hypocritical and ineffectual posturing.
Equally I am waiting for someone in the Shad Cab to show some guts and come out for Leave.
I don't think guts are relevant. They're not in favour of leaving, so why would they pretend to be? Probably Corbyn is the least enthusiastic, but he's probably fighting enough battles within the PLP at the moment without starting another one...
Pah, Jezza has never flinched from opening another war on another front, you speak with forked tongue Mr P.
Who will be the first Cameroon to post tonight in a manner that suggests they have had better things to do all day and are staying uber calm while all the Eurosceptics get over excited?
I am no Cameroon, but I think Dave has handled this very badly. His pretend deal has managed to annoy both the Leavers and the existing Remainers (who were in a majority).
The Leavers would not be happy even if Dave had the EU commissioners licking his boots ( see the bastard getting his boots cleaned for free...) but the Remainers in the LDs, SNP, PC and Labour are not impressed by his hypocritical and ineffectual posturing.
Who will be the first Cameroon to post tonight in a manner that suggests they have had better things to do all day and are staying uber calm while all the Eurosceptics get over excited?
I am no Cameroon, but I think Dave has handled this very badly. His pretend deal has managed to annoy both the Leavers and the existing Remainers (who were in a majority).
The Leavers would not be happy even if Dave had the EU commissioners licking his boots ( see the bastard getting his boots cleaned for free...) but the Remainers in the LDs, SNP, PC and Labour are not impressed by his hypocritical and ineffectual posturing.
No doubt we will ride to the rescue.
why dont you just fk off and join the Tories ? :-)
Equally I am waiting for someone in the Shad Cab to show some guts and come out for Leave.
I don't think guts are relevant. They're not in favour of leaving, so why would they pretend to be? Probably Corbyn is the least enthusiastic, but he's probably fighting enough battles within the PLP at the moment without starting another one...
Pah, Jezza has never flinched from opening another war on another front, you speak with forked tongue Mr P.
I don't think that the EU is an issue that Corbyn is very bothered by either way. It is way down his agenda, but he will come out for Remain, albeit with quite a different set of reforms in mind.
Equally I am waiting for someone in the Shad Cab to show some guts and come out for Leave.
I don't think guts are relevant. They're not in favour of leaving, so why would they pretend to be? Probably Corbyn is the least enthusiastic, but he's probably fighting enough battles within the PLP at the moment without starting another one...
Pah, Jezza has never flinched from opening another war on another front, you speak with forked tongue Mr P.
I don't think that the EU is an issue that Corbyn is very bothered by either way. It is way down his agenda, but he will come out for Remain, albeit with quite a different set of reforms in mind.
Well Eric from Nuneaton might not agree. then what ?
Plato You know a lot about communications, what would be your advice to Hunt over this junior doctor contract? I view the nhs communications strategy and tactics as woeful.
On the contrary. If Cameron loses he will be forced out .
Cameron will not be forced out. He will though lose the power to decide. A Tory leading the 'Leave' campaign, if successful, will be the next leader. They all know this. The last and biggest beast wins.
The Conservative party does not tolerate losing Leaders.
How incompetent is Labour that they cannot exploit the self-destruction of the most succesful Conservative PM for decades.
Very incompetent. ...
But f*ck me, how incompetent is Cameron? He managed to produce a "deal" that was shockingly bad, even to those cynics who were expecting a shockingly bad deal.
.... On the other, how that moment is viewed will depend on how the EU turns out. I suspect he'll only end up with a Heath-like reputation if Remain wins and then things go totally tits-up, particularly if the win is seen to have come through falsehoods and cheating (which will almost certainly be the belief).
As I've often said, I expect the last. And still do. You haven't answered the underlying question: how this deal is so entirely shite. From an allegedly gifted politician. Did Cameron just stop concentrating? Did he get think Sod it I can sell anything? Did he genuinely believe he had something worthwhile? Was he surrounded by appalling advisers? I've yet to hear a coherent explanation.
Let me try. Cameron wants to retire from politics. He also wanted an easy life. He was forced to do the referendum. Therefore completing the referendum and keeping us in was the choice of a man wanting an easy smooth exit. It was in line with the establishment and would enable him to retire gracefully. Wanting an easy life with Europe he only appointed europhiles such as Liddington and not the eurosceptic Mark Francois who had the job in opposition. His first Foreign Minister was Billy Vague, good for an after dinner speech but a man lacking any strategic thoughts. Other people Cameron surrounded himself with such as Ed Llewelyn etc a former worker for Paddy Ashdown, who is also a europhile. So along with Osborne, Cameron kept his friends happy and set off on his own exit journey, an exit from politics. Unfortunately by only involving europhiles in the negotiations he has managed to gain SFA.
I think the outcomes of the 1840's and the 1930's on this 86 year cycle are well known to those who know their history, don't you?
And you would be happy to be tried under Judge Owen?! Pull the other one. The US government got a hissy fit because he wouldn't turn over his models that they wanted. If his models weren't any good, then why would they want them?! From a man who predicted the 1987 stock market crash to the day, the high in Japanese equities at the end of 1989, the roadmap presented at his 1999 conference including the dot com bubble, 2008 and the European crisis in 2011/2012, I have more faith in his forecasting than I would have in you! And because he was so good, he made a lot of powerful enemies including Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and the like. I see that 5 out of 6 Goldman forecasts at the start of this year and their trades thereupon have already been reversed out.
Equally I am waiting for someone in the Shad Cab to show some guts and come out for Leave.
I don't think guts are relevant. They're not in favour of leaving, so why would they pretend to be? Probably Corbyn is the least enthusiastic, but he's probably fighting enough battles within the PLP at the moment without starting another one...
Pah, Jezza has never flinched from opening another war on another front, you speak with forked tongue Mr P.
I don't think that the EU is an issue that Corbyn is very bothered by either way. It is way down his agenda, but he will come out for Remain, albeit with quite a different set of reforms in mind.
Well Eric from Nuneaton might not agree. then what ?
Eric from Nuneaton may not agree, but since when has that bothered Jezza?
''In my experience nearly all insurance is a rip off, and of course if they won't insure you you're stuffed.''
I don;t think even the most ardent tory wants the US system, but what is so wrong with a French/German/Belgian type arrangement??
Well the government keep going on about efficiency and the main thing against it is that it wouldn't be as efficient. We already have an army of accountants just to deal with the internal markets. Factor in a whole host of insurance companies as well...
Equally I am waiting for someone in the Shad Cab to show some guts and come out for Leave.
I don't think guts are relevant. They're not in favour of leaving, so why would they pretend to be? Probably Corbyn is the least enthusiastic, but he's probably fighting enough battles within the PLP at the moment without starting another one...
Pah, Jezza has never flinched from opening another war on another front, you speak with forked tongue Mr P.
I don't think that the EU is an issue that Corbyn is very bothered by either way. It is way down his agenda, but he will come out for Remain, albeit with quite a different set of reforms in mind.
Well Eric from Nuneaton might not agree. then what ?
Eric from Nuneaton may not agree, but since when has that bothered Jezza?
I did say here a wee while ago (not that I deserve credit because I didn't say it particularly emphatically, much less bet on it) that this was very different to the election in that there is no risk of a change of Government.
If Cameron prophesies doom too much (a plague of locusts next?), it reflects badly on his own Government's ability to run a country.
On the contrary. If Cameron loses he will be forced out and there will be changes at the top of Government including a new PM.
Cameron will not be forced out. He will though lose the power to decide.
A Tory leading the 'Leave' campaign, if successful, will be the next leader. They all know this. The last and biggest beast wins.
The Conservative party does not tolerate losing Leaders.
It is all about Tory internals.
How incompetent is Labour that they cannot exploit the self-destruction of the most succesful Conservative PM for decades.
Very incompetent.
No one who voted Conservative in 2015 will switch to Corbyn's Labour. They may switch to UKIP.
But f*ck me, how incompetent is Cameron? He managed to produce a "deal" that was shockingly bad, even to those cynics who were expecting a shockingly bad deal.
And all that, after he pre-sold it to the country as a *fundamental reworking of our EU membership*.
Just terrible politics. Terrible statesmanship. The stuff he is meant to be good at.
His legacy is forever tarnished now. He must know this. Even if he wins, he will be slighted, and if he loses....
Phenomenal. What was he thinking.
His legacy will be tarnished even more if you ask me when the details of his 1989 trip to South Africa come out, as well as the activities that happen on Finchley Road.
I did say here a wee while ago (not that I deserve credit because I didn't say it particularly emphatically, much less bet on it) that this was very different to the election in that there is no risk of a change of Government.
If Cameron prophesies doom too much (a plague of locusts next?), it reflects badly on his own Government's ability to run a country.
On the contrary. If Cameron loses he will be forced out and there will be changes at the top of Government including a new PM.
Cameron will not be forced out. He will though lose the power to decide.
A Tory leading the 'Leave' campaign, if successful, will be the next leader. They all know this. The last and biggest beast wins.
The Conservative party does not tolerate losing Leaders.
It is all about Tory internals.
How incompetent is Labour that they cannot exploit the self-destruction of the most succesful Conservative PM for decades.
Very incompetent.
No one who voted Conservative in 2015 will switch to Corbyn's Labour. They may switch to UKIP.
But f*ck me, how incompetent is Cameron? He managed to produce a "deal" that was shockingly bad, even to those cynics who were expecting a shockingly bad deal.
If he loses, he and his deal may simply be quietly forgotten. It won't be the rejection of the renegotiation that will be remembered; it will be the rejection of the EU itself.
Sure, on one level people will remember that Britain left on his watch and that he didn't want it. On the other, how that moment is viewed will depend on how the EU turns out.
I suspect he'll only end up with a Heath-like reputation if Remain wins and then things go totally tits-up, particularly if the win is seen to have come through falsehoods and cheating (which will almost certainly be the belief).
As I've often said, I expect the last. And still do.
You haven't answered the underlying question: how this deal is so entirely shite. From an allegedly gifted politician. Did Cameron just stop concentrating? Did he get think Sod it I can sell anything? Did he genuinely believe he had something worthwhile? Was he surrounded by appalling advisers?
I've yet to hear a coherent explanation.
Think he just overestimated his salesman ability. He thought the press and public would fool for the spin.
Well he may figure that defeating the "awesome" Brown and Miliband, who could he lose to?
I think the outcomes of the 1840's and the 1930's on this 86 year cycle are well known to those who know their history, don't you?
And you would be happy to be tried under Judge Owen?! Pull the other one. The US government got a hissy fit because he wouldn't turn over his models that they wanted. If his models weren't any good, then why would they want them?! From a man who predicted the 1987 stock market crash to the day, the high in Japanese equities at the end of 1989, the roadmap presented at his 1999 conference including the dot com bubble, 2008 and the European crisis in 2011/2012, I have more faith in his forecasting than I would have in you! And because he was so good, he made a lot of powerful enemies including Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and the like. I see that 5 out of 6 Goldman forecasts at the start of this year and their trades thereupon have already been reversed out.
'Armstrong was indicted in 1999, and was ordered by judge Richard Owen to turn over a number of gold bars, computers, and antiquities that had been bought with the fund's money; the list included bronze helmets and a bust of Julius Caesar.'
You were predicting the end of the world last Autumn. How did that turn out?
No I was not - I was predicting that from the start of October would be when things would start turning down. Well on the 1st October, Russia started bombing in Syria raising geo-political tensions in the Middle East. Tensions have been rising in Europe over the refugee crisis, and global economic worries have been rising as well......so I think my prediction dated from around May 2014 has worked out very well so far thank you.
...snip...
What does Russian military activity have to do with any 'cycles', or predictions? Looks more like a simple coincidence.
You can check out the record of the 1000 pi day cycle (3,141 days or 8.605 years - 23rd February 2007 was the day the index of subprime mortgage debt topped out, late 1998 was the Russian financial crisis, and late 1989 was the Japanese stockmarket top....so this cycle always seems to pick out something important. The war cycle is rising, Russia starting bombing in Syria on the turn date of 1st October last year was a mainfestation of that. Behind apparent chaos, there is a hidden order to events as cycles throughout history attest. Clearly by your attitude, you don't want to see that, in that case that's your loss not mine.
Rats and bats will crawl through the wainscoting, uttering their message of despair unto the people of Judah.
Plato You know a lot about communications, what would be your advice to Hunt over this junior doctor contract? I view the nhs communications strategy and tactics as woeful.
1. I heard on the radio today a chap from the NHS denying that they supported the BMA proposal. 2. Is it true that this new contract could/would only be forced on new doctors and new appointments.
Interesting from Nick Cohen - anyone care to guess what Galloway will actually poll? 3%?
Khan’s supporters dismiss Galloway’s political organisation as little more than a Twitter feed these days. But in their hearts they must be worried. Galloway is capable of winning a substantial vote. He came from nowhere to take parliamentary seats, first in Tower Hamlets and then in Bradford. His supporters are unlikely to make Khan their second preference, after Galloway has spent the campaign attacking Khan’s supposed treasons. More to the point Galloway’s prejudices are the prejudices of London’s Corbynites, the people Khan needs to campaign for him.
Why would Khan be worried about Galloway? Ensures turnout from people who might otherwise stay at home, most of whose second preferences surely go to the left-wing Muslim regardless of what Galloway says?
Because Gorgeous George is a fantastically successful winner of elections. He can persuade nearly anyone of what he thinks you wish to believe at that time. Unfortunately, once elected he only wants opportunities to promote himself or his pet projects which is why he gets unelected at the next election.
Equally I am waiting for someone in the Shad Cab to show some guts and come out for Leave.
I don't think guts are relevant. They're not in favour of leaving, so why would they pretend to be? Probably Corbyn is the least enthusiastic, but he's probably fighting enough battles within the PLP at the moment without starting another one...
I'm not convinced that they are all truebelievers in the European project. The EU stands against the people of Europe, on the side of the establishment - good Socialist reasons to vote Leave, and there are supposedly a few Socialists in the Shad Cab these days...
I did say here a wee while ago (not that I deserve credit because I didn't say it particularly emphatically, much less bet on it) that this was very different to the election in that there is no risk of a change of Government.
If Cameron prophesies doom too much (a plague of locusts next?), it reflects badly on his own Government's ability to run a country.
On the contrary. If Cameron loses he will be forced out and there will be changes at the top of Government including a new PM.
Cameron will not be forced out. He will though lose the power to decide.
A Tory leading the 'Leave' campaign, if successful, will be the next leader. They all know this. The last and biggest beast wins.
The Conservative party does not tolerate losing Leaders.
It is all about Tory internals.
How incompetent is Labour that they cannot exploit the self-destruction of the most succesful Conservative PM for decades.
Very incompetent.
No one who voted Conservative in 2015 will switch to Corbyn's Labour. They may switch to UKIP.
But f*ck me, how incompetent is Cameron? He managed to produce a "deal" that was shockingly bad, even to those cynics who were expecting a shockingly bad deal.
And all that, after he pre-sold it to the country as a *fundamental reworking of our EU membership*.
Just terrible politics. Terrible statesmanship. The stuff he is meant to be good at.
His legacy is forever tarnished now. He must know this. Even if he wins, he will be slighted, and if he loses....
Phenomenal. What was he thinking.
His legacy will be tarnished even more if you ask me when the details of his 1989 trip to South Africa come out, as well as the activities that happen on Finchley Road.
You mean the trip to SA that was revealed in 2009?
When you're a communicator rather than a die in a ditch principles man, you have an added teflon coating. Thus Major, Blair and Cameron have survived what would fell others.
Equally I am waiting for someone in the Shad Cab to show some guts and come out for Leave.
I don't think guts are relevant. They're not in favour of leaving, so why would they pretend to be? Probably Corbyn is the least enthusiastic, but he's probably fighting enough battles within the PLP at the moment without starting another one...
Which leads me to ponder why the main likely "outers" aren't in the shadow cabinet. Kate Hoey is obvious, John Cryer I guess would rather Chair the PLP, Graham Stringer is too disloyal even for Corbyn. But what has Kelvin Hopkins done wrong apart from be a bit old?
I think the outcomes of the 1840's and the 1930's on this 86 year cycle are well known to those who know their history, don't you?
And you would be happy to be tried under Judge Owen?! Pull the other one. The US government got a hissy fit because he wouldn't turn over his models that they wanted. If his models weren't any good, then why would they want them?! From a man who predicted the 1987 stock market crash to the day, the high in Japanese equities at the end of 1989, the roadmap presented at his 1999 conference including the dot com bubble, 2008 and the European crisis in 2011/2012, I have more faith in his forecasting than I would have in you! And because he was so good, he made a lot of powerful enemies including Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and the like. I see that 5 out of 6 Goldman forecasts at the start of this year and their trades thereupon have already been reversed out.
'Armstrong was indicted in 1999, and was ordered by judge Richard Owen to turn over a number of gold bars, computers, and antiquities that had been bought with the fund's money; the list included bronze helmets and a bust of Julius Caesar.'
Plato You know a lot about communications, what would be your advice to Hunt over this junior doctor contract? I view the nhs communications strategy and tactics as woeful.
Sack Hunt would be a useful starter for 10
You don't understand communications do you.
You're too close to it, too emotionally invested.
You think Hunt's winning the communications battle? 66% of the public support the strikes...
The BMA and the health sector in general will never trust another word he says. It's no doubt a winning line in communications in your eyes to alienate 90% of your workforce.
Plato You know a lot about communications, what would be your advice to Hunt over this junior doctor contract? I view the nhs communications strategy and tactics as woeful.
Sack Hunt would be a useful starter for 10
You don't understand communications do you.
You're too close to it, too emotionally invested.
It's pretty clear Hunt's going nowhere. And the contract will be imposed.
A new generation will find the lure of medicine and the eventual rewards of becoming a Consultant too irresistible to say No. As ancient NHS working practices are dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
I did say here a wee while ago (not that I deserve credit because I didn't say it particularly emphatically, much less bet on it) that this was very different to the election in that there is no risk of a change of Government.
If Cameron prophesies doom too much (a plague of locusts next?), it reflects badly on his own Government's ability to run a country.
On the contrary. If Cameron loses he will be forced out and there will be changes at the top of Government including a new PM.
Cameron will not be forced out. He will though lose the power to decide.
A Tory leading the 'Leave' campaign, if successful, will be the next leader. They all know this. The last and biggest beast wins.
The Conservative party does not tolerate losing Leaders.
It is all about Tory internals.
How incompetent is Labour that they cannot exploit the self-destruction of the most succesful Conservative PM for decades.
Very incompetent.
No one who voted Conservative in 2015 will switch to Corbyn's Labour. They may switch to UKIP.
But f*ck me, how incompetent is Cameron? He managed to produce a "deal" that was shockingly bad, even to those cynics who were expecting a shockingly bad deal.
And all that, after he pre-sold it to the country as a *fundamental reworking of our EU membership*.
Just terrible politics. Terrible statesmanship. The stuff he is meant to be good at.
His legacy is forever tarnished now. He must know this. Even if he wins, he will be slighted, and if he loses....
Phenomenal. What was he thinking.
His legacy will be tarnished even more if you ask me when the details of his 1989 trip to South Africa come out, as well as the activities that happen on Finchley Road.
You mean the trip to SA that was revealed in 2009?
When you're a communicator rather than a die in a ditch principles man, you have an added teflon coating. Thus Major, Blair and Cameron have survived what would fell others.
Plato You know a lot about communications, what would be your advice to Hunt over this junior doctor contract? I view the nhs communications strategy and tactics as woeful.
Sack Hunt would be a useful starter for 10
You don't understand communications do you.
You're too close to it, too emotionally invested.
You think Hunt's winning the communications battle? 66% of the public support the strikes...
The BMA and the health sector in general will never trust another word he says. It's no doubt a winning line in communications in your eyes to alienate 90% of your workforce.
Not especially, but what I said was that you don't understand comms.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
1. I heard on the radio today a chap from the NHS denying that they supported the BMA proposal. 2. Is it true that this new contract could/would only be forced on new doctors and new appointments.
2. Yes new appointments only but junior doctors, especially early on in their careers, change jobs every few months. Once their foundation years are out of the way then there's always locuming. Look expectantly to the wage bill spiralling completely out of control towards the end of the parliament because of the agency staff costs.
You can check out the record of the 1000 pi day cycle (3,141 days or 8.605 years - 23rd February 2007 was the day the index of subprime mortgage debt topped out, late 1998 was the Russian financial crisis, and late 1989 was the Japanese stockmarket top....so this cycle always seems to pick out something important. The war cycle is rising, Russia starting bombing in Syria on the turn date of 1st October last year was a mainfestation of that. Behind apparent chaos, there is a hidden order to events as cycles throughout history attest. Clearly by your attitude, you don't want to see that, in that case that's your loss not mine.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
1. I heard on the radio today a chap from the NHS denying that they supported the BMA proposal. 2. Is it true that this new contract could/would only be forced on new doctors and new appointments.
2. Yes new appointments only but junior doctors, especially early on in their careers, change jobs every few months. Once their foundation years are out of the way then there's always locuming. Look expectantly to the wage bill spiralling completely out of control towards the end of the parliament because of the agency staff costs.
Do you actually know any Docs. I do sometimes wonder. They're middle class. They won't want the insecurity of not having a proper job.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
Nah - they've lost the battle because they overegged the safety. Oh, and because the public won't vote for Corbo.
They didn't pick their message well, and they've been a bit unlucky timing wise too.
I think the outcomes of the 1840's and the 1930's on this 86 year cycle are well known to those who know their history, don't you?
And you would be happy to be tried under Judge Owen?! Pull the other one. The US government got a hissy fit because he wouldn't turn over his models that they wanted. If his models weren't any good, then why would they want them?! From a man who predicted the 1987 stock market crash to the day, the high in Japanese equities at the end of 1989, the roadmap presented at his 1999 conference including the dot com bubble, 2008 and the European crisis in 2011/2012, I have more faith in his forecasting than I would have in you! And because he was so good, he made a lot of powerful enemies including Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and the like. I see that 5 out of 6 Goldman forecasts at the start of this year and their trades thereupon have already been reversed out.
'Armstrong was indicted in 1999, and was ordered by judge Richard Owen to turn over a number of gold bars, computers, and antiquities that had been bought with the fund's money; the list included bronze helmets and a bust of Julius Caesar.'
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
Ah, 'safety'.
Do you agree that Junior Doctors working shorter hours, should now have longer training? Obviously it will take longer for them to advance their careers, but they'll need the extra time to catch up with the experience of their predecessors.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
Ah, 'safety'.
Do you agree that Junior Doctors working shorter hours, should now have longer training? Obviously it will take longer for them to advance their careers, but they'll need the extra time to catch up with the experience of their predecessors.
That was the argument put about when the WTD markedly reduced hours. The bigger impediment is the bread and butter stuff being farmed out of the NHS so you don't ket any training in cataract surgery etc.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
You said earlier that it is about safety since there will be fewer junior doctors working from Monday to Friday than there are now, and this will make those days less safe.
Surely, then, this means that Saturdays and Sundays currently (with fewer junior doctors working than work from Monday to Friday) are less safe than Mondays to Fridays. Which, as I understand it, is the government's point.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
Ah, 'safety'.
Do you agree that Junior Doctors working shorter hours, should now have longer training? Obviously it will take longer for them to advance their careers, but they'll need the extra time to catch up with the experience of their predecessors.
That was the argument put about when the WTD markedly reduced hours. The bigger impediment is the bread and butter stuff being farmed out of the NHS so you don't ket any training in cataract surgery etc.
So in short, you don't know? Or are not willing to comment?
I'm a Tory, but your partisanship on this issue is just hilarious.
How incompetent is Labour that they cannot exploit the self-destruction of the most succesful Conservative PM for decades.
Very incompetent.
No one who voted Conservative in 2015 will switch to Corbyn's Labour. They may switch to UKIP.
But f*ck me, how incompetent is Cameron? He managed to produce a "deal" that was shockingly bad, even to those cynics who were expecting a shockingly bad deal.
If he loses, he and his deal may simply be quietly forgotten. It won't be the rejection of the renegotiation that will be remembered; it will be the rejection of the EU itself.
Sure, on one level people will remember that Britain left on his watch and that he didn't want it. On the other, how that moment is viewed will depend on how the EU turns out.
I suspect he'll only end up with a Heath-like reputation if Remain wins and then things go totally tits-up, particularly if the win is seen to have come through falsehoods and cheating (which will almost certainly be the belief).
As I've often said, I expect the last. And still do.
You haven't answered the underlying question: how this deal is so entirely shite. From an allegedly gifted politician. Did Cameron just stop concentrating? Did he get think Sod it I can sell anything? Did he genuinely believe he had something worthwhile? Was he surrounded by appalling advisers?
I've yet to hear a coherent explanation.
Think he just overestimated his salesman ability. He thought the press and public would fool for the spin.
From perdix:You'll have to wait for Cameron's memoirs in a couple of decades from now. I am a huge admirer of Cam for many reasons but I am likely to vote Leave.
Equally I am waiting for someone in the Shad Cab to show some guts and come out for Leave.
I don't think guts are relevant. They're not in favour of leaving, so why would they pretend to be? Probably Corbyn is the least enthusiastic, but he's probably fighting enough battles within the PLP at the moment without starting another one...
Which leads me to ponder why the main likely "outers" aren't in the shadow cabinet. Kate Hoey is obvious, John Cryer I guess would rather Chair the PLP, Graham Stringer is too disloyal even for Corbyn. But what has Kelvin Hopkins done wrong apart from be a bit old?
Yes, I'd love to see Kelvin in there, and he has the authentic Corbyn style - quietly, politely left-wing. I've no idea why he isn't.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
Ah, 'safety'.
Do you agree that Junior Doctors working shorter hours, should now have longer training? Obviously it will take longer for them to advance their careers, but they'll need the extra time to catch up with the experience of their predecessors.
That was the argument put about when the WTD markedly reduced hours. The bigger impediment is the bread and butter stuff being farmed out of the NHS so you don't ket any training in cataract surgery etc.
But do you agree that in the interests of that all important 'patient safety', doctors should train for longer under the new shorter working hours? Seems sensible does it not?
Personally, I'd rather be treated by Consultant A with say 25% more experience under his or her belt, than Consultant B who trained for the same number of years, but spent far fewer hours learning 'on the job'.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
Ah, 'safety'.
Do you agree that Junior Doctors working shorter hours, should now have longer training? Obviously it will take longer for them to advance their careers, but they'll need the extra time to catch up with the experience of their predecessors.
The Royal College of Surgeons has made that precise point in the past in relation to the EWTD:
"The introduction of the EWTD has led to a slow and ongoing erosion of the quality of training. The effects of this are beginning to emerge and will become increasingly apparent as current trainees start to complete their training. It is still too early to see the full effect of implementation of the 48 hour week, but evidence is now being published about the impact of the reduction to 56 hours, which indicates a significant deterioration in access to training.
There is growing evidence that rotas compliant with the EWTD are both increasing doctors’ feelings of fatigue and worsening their work-life balance. We highlight the following changes bought about by the EWTD that are having an impact on the quality of training: o Shift working – in order to maintain a 24-hour service and make rotas compliant, many employers have implemented full shift working (at the expense of maintaining on-call rotas). This is a direct result of the SiMap ruling and presents particular difficulties for smaller units. Constraints and penalties within the ‘New Deal’ have also influenced the move to full shift working to ensure compliance. Full shift working is not only disruptive to training schedules but also to a good work-life balance, as the proportion of out of hours service provision has increased, at the cost of high quality daytime training opportunities.
As a result there have been three deleterious affects - trainees have had their overall hours reduced and daytime training reduced further still, in addition to far longer periods away from home and families."
I take a contrary view. It is possible to train Specialists in less time if they are actually trained and supervised rather than being left to do donkey work of little educational value.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
Ah, 'safety'.
Do you agree that Junior Doctors working shorter hours, should now have longer training? Obviously it will take longer for them to advance their careers, but they'll need the extra time to catch up with the experience of their predecessors.
That was the argument put about when the WTD markedly reduced hours. The bigger impediment is the bread and butter stuff being farmed out of the NHS so you don't ket any training in cataract surgery etc.
But do you agree that in the interests of that all important 'patient safety', doctors should train for longer under the new shorter working hours? Seems sensible does it not?
Personally, I'd rather be treated by Consultant A with say 25% more experience under his or her belt, than Consultant B who trained for the same number of years, but spent far fewer hours learning 'on the job'.
Doctors should train for sufficient amount of time so that they can acquire the necessary competencies.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
You said earlier that it is about safety since there will be fewer junior doctors working from Monday to Friday than there are now, and this will make those days less safe.
Surely, then, this means that Saturdays and Sundays currently (with fewer junior doctors working than work from Monday to Friday) are less safe than Mondays to Fridays. Which, as I understand it, is the government's point.
It's the government who says that you need more junior doctors to have a safer service. Under the new contract there will be fewer of them working weekdays. If there aren't then they'll have been working for more hours.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
Ah, 'safety'.
Do you agree that Junior Doctors working shorter hours, should now have longer training? Obviously it will take longer for them to advance their careers, but they'll need the extra time to catch up with the experience of their predecessors.
That was the argument put about when the WTD markedly reduced hours. The bigger impediment is the bread and butter stuff being farmed out of the NHS so you don't ket any training in cataract surgery etc.
But do you agree that in the interests of that all important 'patient safety', doctors should train for longer under the new shorter working hours? Seems sensible does it not?
Personally, I'd rather be treated by Consultant A with say 25% more experience under his or her belt, than Consultant B who trained for the same number of years, but spent far fewer hours learning 'on the job'.
Doctors should train for sufficient amount of time so that they can acquire the necessary competencies.
So you're happy for them to train for just enough to get by? Or go the extra mile, for the experience and improvement in patient safety?
Who will be the first Cameroon to post tonight in a manner that suggests they have had better things to do all day and are staying uber calm while all the Eurosceptics get over excited?
I am no Cameroon, but I think Dave has handled this very badly. His pretend deal has managed to annoy both the Leavers and the existing Remainers (who were in a majority).
The Leavers would not be happy even if Dave had the EU commissioners licking his boots ( see the bastard getting his boots cleaned for free...) but the Remainers in the LDs, SNP, PC and Labour are not impressed by his hypocritical and ineffectual posturing.
This was inevitably going to happen - the renegotiation thing wasn't optimized for when he actually did it in 2016, it was optimized for getting him through the election in 2015 without saying he supported the EU as it actually existed.
However, I doubt it'll have much effect on the actual referendum; The EU is a big enough issue to be mostly decided on its own merits, not on Cameron's pre-referendum politicking.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
You said earlier that it is about safety since there will be fewer junior doctors working from Monday to Friday than there are now, and this will make those days less safe.
Surely, then, this means that Saturdays and Sundays currently (with fewer junior doctors working than work from Monday to Friday) are less safe than Mondays to Fridays. Which, as I understand it, is the government's point.
It's the government who says that you need more junior doctors to have a safer service.
The Times has seen evidence that among Ukip’s Westminster candidates: ● One stated that Islam was organised crime under religious camouflage and that Muhammad was a gang leader, a criminal psychopath, the first cult leader, and psychiatrically deranged. Wanted to license mosques and attended English Defence League rallies ● Another spoke at a “gay cure”-themed event after being approved ● One committed common assault ● Another told someone to remember to wear her burka when going to Birmingham ● One retweeted posts from Pegida, a far-right anti-Muslim German party ● Another was convicted for common assault against his wife Among those who stood to be councillors: ● One had been convicted in separate incidents of wounding, GBH, assault and criminal damage, threatening behaviour and assault ● Another described a picture of two people posing with monkeys as “an arranged interracial marriage” ● One was imprisoned for 21 months for breaking and entering ● Another committed GBH while employed as a bouncer
Will there be an emergency strike if the contract is imposed?
That would lead to a total victory for the Govt - would disarm the BMA for a generation.
More likely mass resignations. The GPs are planning this too in their own contract dispute, and have done so in the past.
This is most likely to be effective in shortage specialities where there are unfilled posts, less so in high demand specialities. So expect shortages in emergency medicine, paediatrics, obstetrics etc.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
Ah, 'safety'.
Do you agree that Junior Doctors working shorter hours, should now have longer training? Obviously it will take longer for them to advance their careers, but they'll need the extra time to catch up with the experience of their predecessors.
That was the argument put about when the WTD markedly reduced hours. The bigger impediment is the bread and butter stuff being farmed out of the NHS so you don't ket any training in cataract surgery etc.
But do you agree that in the interests of that all important 'patient safety', doctors should train for longer under the new shorter working hours? Seems sensible does it not?
Personally, I'd rather be treated by Consultant A with say 25% more experience under his or her belt, than Consultant B who trained for the same number of years, but spent far fewer hours learning 'on the job'.
Doctors should train for sufficient amount of time so that they can acquire the necessary competencies.
So you're happy for them to train for just enough to get by? Or go the extra mile, for the experience and improvement in patient safety?
I suppose it's a bit like being a passenger on a 747 with engine problems. Would you be happier with Captain Jeremy, fully qualified with 10,000 hours experience, or Captain Andrew, similar paper qualification, but only 5,000 hours real experience on the clock. Hmmm.
The Times has seen evidence that among Ukip’s Westminster candidates: ● One stated that Islam was organised crime under religious camouflage and that Muhammad was a gang leader, a criminal psychopath, the first cult leader, and psychiatrically deranged. Wanted to license mosques and attended English Defence League rallies ● Another spoke at a “gay cure”-themed event after being approved ● One committed common assault ● Another told someone to remember to wear her burka when going to Birmingham ● One retweeted posts from Pegida, a far-right anti-Muslim German party ● Another was convicted for common assault against his wife Among those who stood to be councillors: ● One had been convicted in separate incidents of wounding, GBH, assault and criminal damage, threatening behaviour and assault ● Another described a picture of two people posing with monkeys as “an arranged interracial marriage” ● One was imprisoned for 21 months for breaking and entering ● Another committed GBH while employed as a bouncer
Sounds to me like they would be perfect in the House of Commons
Will there be an emergency strike if the contract is imposed?
That would lead to a total victory for the Govt - would disarm the BMA for a generation.
More likely mass resignations. The GPs are planning this too in their own contract dispute, and have done so in the past.
This is most likely to be effective in shortage specialities where there are unfilled posts, less so in high demand specialities. So expect shortages in emergency medicine, paediatrics, obstetrics etc.
I'd say that wouldnt be safe or fair.
But, like I said, Docs are MC, they won't resign en masse.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
Ah, 'safety'.
Do you agree that Junior Doctors working shorter hours, should now have longer training? Obviously it will take longer for them to advance their careers, but they'll need the extra time to catch up with the experience of their predecessors.
That was the argument put about when the WTD markedly reduced hours. The bigger impediment is the bread and butter stuff being farmed out of the NHS so you don't ket any training in cataract surgery etc.
But do you agree that in the interests of that all important 'patient safety', doctors should train for longer under the new shorter working hours? Seems sensible does it not?
Personally, I'd rather be treated by Consultant A with say 25% more experience under his or her belt, than Consultant B who trained for the same number of years, but spent far fewer hours learning 'on the job'.
Doctors should train for sufficient amount of time so that they can acquire the necessary competencies.
So you're happy for them to train for just enough to get by? Or go the extra mile, for the experience and improvement in patient safety?
I sometime wonder if you sockpuppets are for real. Carry on, you're onto a loser.
The Times has seen evidence that among Ukip’s Westminster candidates: ● One stated that Islam was organised crime under religious camouflage and that Muhammad was a gang leader, a criminal psychopath, the first cult leader, and psychiatrically deranged. Wanted to license mosques and attended English Defence League rallies ● Another spoke at a “gay cure”-themed event after being approved ● One committed common assault ● Another told someone to remember to wear her burka when going to Birmingham ● One retweeted posts from Pegida, a far-right anti-Muslim German party ● Another was convicted for common assault against his wife Among those who stood to be councillors: ● One had been convicted in separate incidents of wounding, GBH, assault and criminal damage, threatening behaviour and assault ● Another described a picture of two people posing with monkeys as “an arranged interracial marriage” ● One was imprisoned for 21 months for breaking and entering ● Another committed GBH while employed as a bouncer
Will there be an emergency strike if the contract is imposed?
That would lead to a total victory for the Govt - would disarm the BMA for a generation.
More likely mass resignations. The GPs are planning this too in their own contract dispute, and have done so in the past.
This is most likely to be effective in shortage specialities where there are unfilled posts, less so in high demand specialities. So expect shortages in emergency medicine, paediatrics, obstetrics etc.
I'd say that wouldnt be safe or fair.
But, like I said, Docs are MC, they won't resign en masse.
Indeed. They're not going to give up long held career plans, for uncertainty.
Ten years of Margaret Thatcher delivered council house sales, trade union reform, privatisation, the Falklands War and the fall of the Berlin Wall. Ten years of Blair brought NHS spending to the European average, peace in Ireland after 600 years of conflict, an end to pensioner poverty, a National Minimum Wage and 0.7% of GDP spent on foreign aid. In 2017, ten years of SNP rule will have delivered free medical prescriptions and a lost referendum.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
Ah, 'safety'.
Do you agree that Junior Doctors working shorter hours, should now have longer training? Obviously it will take longer for them to advance their careers, but they'll need the extra time to catch up with the experience of their predecessors.
That was the argument put about when the WTD markedly reduced hours. The bigger impediment is the bread and butter stuff being farmed out of the NHS so you don't ket any training in cataract surgery etc.
But do you agree that in the interests of that all important 'patient safety', doctors should train for longer under the new shorter working hours? Seems sensible does it not?
Personally, I'd rather be treated by Consultant A with say 25% more experience under his or her belt, than Consultant B who trained for the same number of years, but spent far fewer hours learning 'on the job'.
Doctors should train for sufficient amount of time so that they can acquire the necessary competencies.
So you're happy for them to train for just enough to get by? Or go the extra mile, for the experience and improvement in patient safety?
I sometime wonder if you sockpuppets are for real. Carry on, you're onto a loser.
Anyone who hasn't been Baptised and Confirmed into the NHS faith is a sock puppet are they?
I'm fed up of Docs moaning about this. All other public sector workers have had contract changes. Most private sector workers had pay/hours cuts and have no-where near as good a pension.
And on top of that they're overplaying their hand and threatening mass resignations.
The public won't wear it for much longer. And imposition won't hurt the Tory poll leads either.
"Britain's manufacturing sector remains 9.8pc smaller than its 2008 peak, while the wider industrial sector is still 6.5pc smaller than its pre-crash size."
Thank goodness we have our "near perfect" (tm Mr. Nabavi) chancellor looking after the economy (when he can be bothered to turn away from political stunts) otherwise we might also still have a large structural deficit and a massive current account imbalance.
I know Sir Alan Brooke of this parish bangs on about manufacturing, but given our success in the service sector, does it really matter?
Britain is presumably a bladdy expensive place to manufacture stuff....
1) The UK's services surplus isn't large enough to match the goods deficit (plus the tourism deficit).
2) The UK's goods exports are actually larger than the services exports - even though more than 10 times as many people work in the services sector than in manufacturing.
3) There is no guarantee that the UK's services surplus will continue any more than there was a guarantee that the UK's exports of motorbikes would in the 1950s.
4) Manufacturing workers have higher average productivity and earnings than those in the services sector.
5) The top end services sector is concentrated in and near London whereas manufacturing is spread more generally throughout the country.
6) The UK is an expensive place to do anything - especially so for those concentrated in and near London.
7) Concentrating too much of the UK's wealth creating / exporting earning into certain areas increases risk and encourages official tolerance of misconduct within them - see 'the banks' ad infinitum.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
That's where your completely wrong - the public are supportive because they know it is about safety. Do you think they'd support reasonably well paid professionals striking for more money?
Ah, 'safety'.
Do you agree that Junior Doctors working shorter hours, should now have longer training? Obviously it will take longer for them to advance their careers, but they'll need the extra time to catch up with the experience of their predecessors.
That was the argument put about when the WTD markedly reduced hours. The bigger impediment is the bread and butter stuff being farmed out of the NHS so you don't ket any training in cataract surgery etc.
But do you agree that in the interests of that all important 'patient safety', doctors should train for longer under the new shorter working hours? Seems sensible does it not?
Personally, I'd rather be treated by Consultant A with say 25% more experience under his or her belt, than Consultant B who trained for the same number of years, but spent far fewer hours learning 'on the job'.
Doctors should train for sufficient amount of time so that they can acquire the necessary competencies.
So you're happy for them to train for just enough to get by? Or go the extra mile, for the experience and improvement in patient safety?
I sometime wonder if you sockpuppets are for real. Carry on, you're onto a loser.
I'm one of the millions of taxpayers who pays your salary, with the expectation that we'll get a decent level of 21st century healthcare in return.
And you're not delivering, as you're too busy hijacking it as a cult or religion, rather than a service to be provided to it's many patients.
Will there be an emergency strike if the contract is imposed?
That would lead to a total victory for the Govt - would disarm the BMA for a generation.
More likely mass resignations. The GPs are planning this too in their own contract dispute, and have done so in the past.
This is most likely to be effective in shortage specialities where there are unfilled posts, less so in high demand specialities. So expect shortages in emergency medicine, paediatrics, obstetrics etc.
I'd say that wouldnt be safe or fair.
But, like I said, Docs are MC, they won't resign en masse.
No, but they will move to Wales or Scotland where the new contract does not apply, as well as the antipodes. They will leave postgraduate training, and even the profession. This year the number of junior Doctors in Specialist training/GP training 2 years post qualification is 50%, in 2013 it was 73%.
People will vote with their feet, and vacancies on rotas will worsen. This is likely to be highest in shortage specialities such as Paeds, Emergency Medicine and Obstetrics, and particularly so in less fashionable parts of the country. There is a real recruitment and retention problem.
Given you are obviously very passionate about your cause may I ask what you actually do in the NHS?
The only reason I ask is to formulate my opinion on what you say and its accuracy. I know who Hunt is and what he does but I need a balance. What do you do? ( don't need to know where, why or anything else)
Will there be an emergency strike if the contract is imposed?
That would lead to a total victory for the Govt - would disarm the BMA for a generation.
More likely mass resignations. The GPs are planning this too in their own contract dispute, and have done so in the past.
This is most likely to be effective in shortage specialities where there are unfilled posts, less so in high demand specialities. So expect shortages in emergency medicine, paediatrics, obstetrics etc.
I'd say that wouldnt be safe or fair.
But, like I said, Docs are MC, they won't resign en masse.
No, but they will move to Wales or Scotland where the new contract does not apply, as well as the antipodes. They will leave postgraduate training, and even the profession. This year the number of junior Doctors in Specialist training/GP training 2 years post qualification is 50%, in 2013 it was 73%.
People will vote with their feet, and vacancies on rotas will worsen. This is likely to be highest in shortage specialities such as Paeds, Emergency Medicine and Obstetrics, and particularly so in less fashionable parts of the country. There is a real recruitment and retention problem.
How many vacancies are there in Wales and Scotland? Outside of Edinburgh/Glasgow, non of my metropolitan Doc friends would want to live in Wales/Scotland.
Antipodes are VERY different.
Being a Doc is a safe MC role - far more will buckle down and accept it than will move.
Will there be an emergency strike if the contract is imposed?
That would lead to a total victory for the Govt - would disarm the BMA for a generation.
More likely mass resignations. The GPs are planning this too in their own contract dispute, and have done so in the past.
This is most likely to be effective in shortage specialities where there are unfilled posts, less so in high demand specialities. So expect shortages in emergency medicine, paediatrics, obstetrics etc.
I'd say that wouldnt be safe or fair.
But, like I said, Docs are MC, they won't resign en masse.
No, but they will move to Wales or Scotland where the new contract does not apply, as well as the antipodes. They will leave postgraduate training, and even the profession. This year the number of junior Doctors in Specialist training/GP training 2 years post qualification is 50%, in 2013 it was 73%.
People will vote with their feet, and vacancies on rotas will worsen. This is likely to be highest in shortage specialities such as Paeds, Emergency Medicine and Obstetrics, and particularly so in less fashionable parts of the country. There is a real recruitment and retention problem.
and then the pay and conditions will be changed to attract enough doctors. If Emergency needs more it should pay more. Of course that is very hard for a socialist entity like the NHS to do but it will and life will go on. There may even be sensible change such as more training places, higher fees and formal minimum service terms of say 3 years for every E&W trained doctor to complete.
Given you are obviously very passionate about your cause may I ask what you actually do in the NHS?
The only reason I ask is to formulate my opinion on what you say and its accuracy. I know who Hunt is and what he does but I need a balance. What do you do? ( don't need to know where, why or anything else)
Given you are obviously very passionate about your cause may I ask what you actually do in the NHS?
The only reason I ask is to formulate my opinion on what you say and its accuracy. I know who Hunt is and what he does but I need a balance. What do you do? ( don't need to know where, why or anything else)
Tks in advance
I work in adverse drug reactions and medicines management.
Wonder if they will have a look at some of those "independent" think tanks churning out pro-EU "research".
Vote Leave’s spokesman Mr Oxley said: “... It should come as no surprise that every piece of research the BSE campaign cites comes from EU-funded bodies.”
and then the pay and conditions will be changed to attract enough doctors. If Emergency needs more it should pay more. Of course that is very hard for a socialist entity like the NHS to do but it will and life will go on. There may even be sensible change such as more training places, higher fees and formal minimum service terms of say 3 years for every E&W trained doctor to complete.
You've never heard of recruitment and retention premia then. No? Of course not because all you ever wish to do with the NHS is run it down.
Will there be an emergency strike if the contract is imposed?
That would lead to a total victory for the Govt - would disarm the BMA for a generation.
More likely mass resignations. The GPs are planning this too in their own contract dispute, and have done so in the past.
This is most likely to be effective in shortage specialities where there are unfilled posts, less so in high demand specialities. So expect shortages in emergency medicine, paediatrics, obstetrics etc.
I'd say that wouldnt be safe or fair.
But, like I said, Docs are MC, they won't resign en masse.
No, but they will move to Wales or Scotland where the new contract does not apply, as well as the antipodes. They will leave postgraduate training, and even the profession. This year the number of junior Doctors in Specialist training/GP training 2 years post qualification is 50%, in 2013 it was 73%.
People will vote with their feet, and vacancies on rotas will worsen. This is likely to be highest in shortage specialities such as Paeds, Emergency Medicine and Obstetrics, and particularly so in less fashionable parts of the country. There is a real recruitment and retention problem.
How many vacancies are there in Wales and Scotland? Outside of Edinburgh/Glasgow, non of my metropolitan Doc friends would want to live in Wales/Scotland.
Antipodes are VERY different.
Being a Doc is a safe MC role - far more will buckle down and accept it than will move.
Some will bite the bullet, some will move, some will leave the profession.
Many will just become resentful and do the bare minimum, refusing to cover rota vacancies.
It will not be an effective way of bringing about change in the NHS. Pissing off a key part of the workforce never is.
The simple fact of spreading staff thinner but more evenly across the week is not going to improve outcomes.
The only way of providing a 7 day NHS of well trained and equipped staff is the closure of many smaller units to emergdncy admissions. Small district hospitals simply do not have the staff to man a 7 day rota.
Given you are obviously very passionate about your cause may I ask what you actually do in the NHS?
The only reason I ask is to formulate my opinion on what you say and its accuracy. I know who Hunt is and what he does but I need a balance. What do you do? ( don't need to know where, why or anything else)
Given you are obviously very passionate about your cause may I ask what you actually do in the NHS?
The only reason I ask is to formulate my opinion on what you say and its accuracy. I know who Hunt is and what he does but I need a balance. What do you do? ( don't need to know where, why or anything else)
Tks in advance
I work in adverse drug reactions and medicines management.
Damn - could have done with you in my local hospital on a Sunday in August 2014, when I had a violent reaction to a drug that was administered to me after having told 3 people I was allergic to it!
Will there be an emergency strike if the contract is imposed?
That would lead to a total victory for the Govt - would disarm the BMA for a generation.
More likely mass resignations. The GPs are planning this too in their own contract dispute, and have done so in the past.
This is most likely to be effective in shortage specialities where there are unfilled posts, less so in high demand specialities. So expect shortages in emergency medicine, paediatrics, obstetrics etc.
I'd say that wouldnt be safe or fair.
But, like I said, Docs are MC, they won't resign en masse.
No, but they will move to Wales or Scotland where the new contract does not apply, as well as the antipodes. They will leave postgraduate training, and even the profession. This year the number of junior Doctors in Specialist training/GP training 2 years post qualification is 50%, in 2013 it was 73%.
People will vote with their feet, and vacancies on rotas will worsen. This is likely to be highest in shortage specialities such as Paeds, Emergency Medicine and Obstetrics, and particularly so in less fashionable parts of the country. There is a real recruitment and retention problem.
and then the pay and conditions will be changed to attract enough doctors. If Emergency needs more it should pay more. Of course that is very hard for a socialist entity like the NHS to do but it will and life will go on. There may even be sensible change such as more training places, higher fees and formal minimum service terms of say 3 years for every E&W trained doctor to complete.
Errr! That is precisely what the BMA are saying.
Staff who work more unsocial hours should be paid premiums to attract them! (Or not have those premiums reduced - as Hunt plans to do).
Way to get the northern Labour heartlands rallying to the Remain cause
Although this comment was tongue in cheek, I do think there's a serious point here.
For all the main figures in the Leave campaign seem to think the world revolves around right-wingers and Tory voters, they would do well to remember there's no realistic route to a Leave victory which doesn't go through the Old Labour mining and industrial towns.
Given you are obviously very passionate about your cause may I ask what you actually do in the NHS?
The only reason I ask is to formulate my opinion on what you say and its accuracy. I know who Hunt is and what he does but I need a balance. What do you do? ( don't need to know where, why or anything else)
Given you are obviously very passionate about your cause may I ask what you actually do in the NHS?
The only reason I ask is to formulate my opinion on what you say and its accuracy. I know who Hunt is and what he does but I need a balance. What do you do? ( don't need to know where, why or anything else)
Tks in advance
I work in adverse drug reactions and medicines management.
Damn - could have done with you in my local hospital on a Sunday in August 2014, when I had a violent reaction to a drug that was administered to me after having told 3 people I was allergic to it!
Will there be an emergency strike if the contract is imposed?
That would lead to a total victory for the Govt - would disarm the BMA for a generation.
More likely mass resignations. The GPs are planning this too in their own contract dispute, and have done so in the past.
This is most likely to be effective in shortage specialities where there are unfilled posts, less so in high demand specialities. So expect shortages in emergency medicine, paediatrics, obstetrics etc.
I'd say that wouldnt be safe or fair.
But, like I said, Docs are MC, they won't resign en masse.
No, but they will move to Wales or Scotland where the new contract does not apply, as well as the antipodes. They will leave postgraduate training, and even the profession. This year the number of junior Doctors in Specialist training/GP training 2 years post qualification is 50%, in 2013 it was 73%.
People will vote with their feet, and vacancies on rotas will worsen. This is likely to be highest in shortage specialities such as Paeds, Emergency Medicine and Obstetrics, and particularly so in less fashionable parts of the country. There is a real recruitment and retention problem.
and then the pay and conditions will be changed to attract enough doctors. If Emergency needs more it should pay more. Of course that is very hard for a socialist entity like the NHS to do but it will and life will go on. There may even be sensible change such as more training places, higher fees and formal minimum service terms of say 3 years for every E&W trained doctor to complete.
Universities can always reduce the quality of grades required to join medical degree courses. As long as they can acquire the necessary competences in later training it shouldn't be a problem.
Given you are obviously very passionate about your cause may I ask what you actually do in the NHS?
The only reason I ask is to formulate my opinion on what you say and its accuracy. I know who Hunt is and what he does but I need a balance. What do you do? ( don't need to know where, why or anything else)
Given you are obviously very passionate about your cause may I ask what you actually do in the NHS?
The only reason I ask is to formulate my opinion on what you say and its accuracy. I know who Hunt is and what he does but I need a balance. What do you do? ( don't need to know where, why or anything else)
Tks in advance
I work in adverse drug reactions and medicines management.
@DannySweeney89: Yes the SNP really did just vote to stop saving lives, just to spite Scottish Labour. That happened. That is a fact. https://t.co/hAgyxdIOdc
For a man wanting to neutralize the "Never trust the Tories with the NHS".
Cameron is acting like a Fookin idiot
Do you think that fewer people will die if there are more junior doctors working at weekends etc?
I don't. The problem of providing the same level of service across the entire 168 hours of the week as available in 40 office hours goes much further than having a few junior doctors working Saturday rather than a Tuesday.
Trashing training and depleting the midweek staff is not the way to improve outcomes across the week. If that is done then it will be a levelling down rather than levelling up.
Given you are obviously very passionate about your cause may I ask what you actually do in the NHS?
The only reason I ask is to formulate my opinion on what you say and its accuracy. I know who Hunt is and what he does but I need a balance. What do you do? ( don't need to know where, why or anything else)
Given you are obviously very passionate about your cause may I ask what you actually do in the NHS?
The only reason I ask is to formulate my opinion on what you say and its accuracy. I know who Hunt is and what he does but I need a balance. What do you do? ( don't need to know where, why or anything else)
Tks in advance
I work in adverse drug reactions and medicines management.
Damn - could have done with you in my local hospital on a Sunday in August 2014, when I had a violent reaction to a drug that was administered to me after having told 3 people I was allergic to it!
Will there be an emergency strike if the contract is imposed?
That would lead to a total victory for the Govt - would disarm the BMA for a generation.
More likely mass resignations. The GPs are planning this too in their own contract dispute, and have done so in the past.
This is most likely to be effective in shortage specialities where there are unfilled posts, less so in high demand specialities. So expect shortages in emergency medicine, paediatrics, obstetrics etc.
I'd say that wouldnt be safe or fair.
But, like I said, Docs are MC, they won't resign en masse.
No, but they will move to Wales or Scotland where the new contract does not apply, as well as the antipodes. They will leave postgraduate training, and even the profession. This year the number of junior Doctors in Specialist training/GP training 2 years post qualification is 50%, in 2013 it was 73%.
People will vote with their feet, and vacancies on rotas will worsen. This is likely to be highest in shortage specialities such as Paeds, Emergency Medicine and Obstetrics, and particularly so in less fashionable parts of the country. There is a real recruitment and retention problem.
and then the pay and conditions will be changed to attract enough doctors. If Emergency needs more it should pay more. Of course that is very hard for a socialist entity like the NHS to do but it will and life will go on. There may even be sensible change such as more training places, higher fees and formal minimum service terms of say 3 years for every E&W trained doctor to complete.
Universities can always reduce the quality of grades required to join medical degree courses. As long as they can acquire the necessary competences in later training it shouldn't be a problem.
If that is the solution then something, somewhere has gone seriously wrong.
I work in adverse drug reactions and medicines management.
Thank you.
And as I said earlier the inexorable rise in the NHS drugs bill is causing real financial strains. Newer biological treatments are often life changing in diseases like rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn's disease, psoriasis, hepatitis C infection, macular degeneration leading to blindness and the like, but they don't come cheap.
Also CCGs which under Lansley were meant to take a lead in commissioning have mostly their hands tied because getting on for two-thirds of their drugs budget goes on NICE-approved treatments.
Comments
You can check out the record of the 1000 pi day cycle (3,141 days or 8.605 years - 23rd February 2007 was the day the index of subprime mortgage debt topped out, late 1998 was the Russian financial crisis, and late 1989 was the Japanese stockmarket top....so this cycle always seems to pick out something important. The war cycle is rising, Russia starting bombing in Syria on the turn date of 1st October last year was a mainfestation of that. Behind apparent chaos, there is a hidden order to events as cycles throughout history attest. Clearly by your attitude, you don't want to see that, in that case that's your loss not mine.
Rats and bats will crawl through the wainscoting, uttering their message of despair unto the people of Judah.
The Leavers would not be happy even if Dave had the EU commissioners licking his boots ( see the bastard getting his boots cleaned for free...) but the Remainers in the LDs, SNP, PC and Labour are not impressed by his hypocritical and ineffectual posturing.
Klassenverrater
Actually the BMA proposal (supported by the NHS employers and vetoed by Hunt) is not a bad deal, and is cost neutral. See this graphic:
http://www.bma.org.uk/~/asset/4/13924.ashx
Cruzin' for victory.
'Armstrong was indicted in 1999, and was ordered by judge Richard Owen to turn over a number of gold bars, computers, and antiquities that had been bought with the fund's money; the list included bronze helmets and a bust of Julius Caesar.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_A._Armstrong
Rats and bats will crawl through the wainscoting, uttering their message of despair unto the people of Judah.
They're porky pie cycles.
You're too close to it, too emotionally invested.
2. Is it true that this new contract could/would only be forced on new doctors and new appointments.
When you're a communicator rather than a die in a ditch principles man, you have an added teflon coating. Thus Major, Blair and Cameron have survived what would fell others.
The BMA and the health sector in general will never trust another word he says. It's no doubt a winning line in communications in your eyes to alienate 90% of your workforce.
A new generation will find the lure of medicine and the eventual rewards of becoming a Consultant too irresistible to say No. As ancient NHS working practices are dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
By making this about Hunt the BMA and Docs look small minded and vindictive. Just as they should never have gone with the safety line. They might have won a pure 'we're worth more than this offer' debate.
Especially when they aren't there.
They really are on to a loser.
They didn't pick their message well, and they've been a bit unlucky timing wise too.
That would lead to a total victory for the Govt - would disarm the BMA for a generation.
Do you agree that Junior Doctors working shorter hours, should now have longer training? Obviously it will take longer for them to advance their careers, but they'll need the extra time to catch up with the experience of their predecessors.
Surely, then, this means that Saturdays and Sundays currently (with fewer junior doctors working than work from Monday to Friday) are less safe than Mondays to Fridays. Which, as I understand it, is the government's point.
I'm a Tory, but your partisanship on this issue is just hilarious.
It is all about Tory internals.
How incompetent is Labour that they cannot exploit the self-destruction of the most succesful Conservative PM for decades.
Very incompetent.
No one who voted Conservative in 2015 will switch to Corbyn's Labour. They may switch to UKIP.
But f*ck me, how incompetent is Cameron? He managed to produce a "deal" that was shockingly bad, even to those cynics who were expecting a shockingly bad deal.
If he loses, he and his deal may simply be quietly forgotten. It won't be the rejection of the renegotiation that will be remembered; it will be the rejection of the EU itself.
Sure, on one level people will remember that Britain left on his watch and that he didn't want it. On the other, how that moment is viewed will depend on how the EU turns out.
I suspect he'll only end up with a Heath-like reputation if Remain wins and then things go totally tits-up, particularly if the win is seen to have come through falsehoods and cheating (which will almost certainly be the belief).
As I've often said, I expect the last. And still do.
You haven't answered the underlying question: how this deal is so entirely shite. From an allegedly gifted politician. Did Cameron just stop concentrating? Did he get think Sod it I can sell anything? Did he genuinely believe he had something worthwhile? Was he surrounded by appalling advisers?
I've yet to hear a coherent explanation.
Think he just overestimated his salesman ability. He thought the press and public would fool for the spin.
From perdix:You'll have to wait for Cameron's memoirs in a couple of decades from now. I am a huge admirer of Cam for many reasons but I am likely to vote Leave.
Cameron is acting like a Fookin idiot
Personally, I'd rather be treated by Consultant A with say 25% more experience under his or her belt, than Consultant B who trained for the same number of years, but spent far fewer hours learning 'on the job'.
"The introduction of the EWTD has led to a slow and ongoing erosion of the quality of training. The effects of this are beginning to emerge and will become increasingly apparent as current trainees
start to complete their training. It is still too early to see the full effect of implementation of the 48 hour week, but evidence is now being published about the impact of the reduction to 56 hours,
which indicates a significant deterioration in access to training.
There is growing evidence that rotas compliant with the EWTD are both increasing doctors’ feelings of fatigue and worsening their work-life balance. We highlight the following changes bought about by the EWTD that are having an impact on the quality of training:
o Shift working – in order to maintain a 24-hour service and make rotas compliant, many employers have implemented full shift working (at the expense of maintaining on-call rotas). This is a direct result of the SiMap ruling and presents particular difficulties for smaller units. Constraints and penalties within the ‘New Deal’ have also influenced the move to full shift working to ensure compliance. Full shift working is not only disruptive to
training schedules but also to a good work-life balance, as the proportion of out of hours service provision has increased, at the cost of high quality daytime training opportunities.
As a result there have been three deleterious affects - trainees have had their overall hours reduced and daytime training reduced further still, in addition to far longer periods away from home and families."
I take a contrary view. It is possible to train Specialists in less time if they are actually trained and supervised rather than being left to do donkey work of little educational value.
Why was it delayed you ask? That would be because West Brom had a decisive 4-3 (on penalties) win over the Posh, who are 38 BLADDY PLACES BELOW THEM!
However, I doubt it'll have much effect on the actual referendum; The EU is a big enough issue to be mostly decided on its own merits, not on Cameron's pre-referendum politicking.
Rumbled.
Do not smile on a picket line.
It makes you look like you're enjoying it.
The Times has seen evidence that among Ukip’s Westminster candidates:
● One stated that Islam was organised crime under religious camouflage and that Muhammad was a gang leader, a criminal psychopath, the first cult leader, and psychiatrically deranged. Wanted to license mosques and attended English Defence League rallies
● Another spoke at a “gay cure”-themed event after being approved
● One committed common assault
● Another told someone to remember to wear her burka when going to Birmingham
● One retweeted posts from Pegida, a far-right anti-Muslim German party
● Another was convicted for common assault against his wife
Among those who stood to be councillors:
● One had been convicted in separate incidents of wounding,
GBH, assault and criminal damage, threatening behaviour and assault
● Another described a picture of two people posing with monkeys as “an arranged interracial marriage”
● One was imprisoned for 21 months for breaking and entering
● Another committed GBH while employed as a bouncer
This is most likely to be effective in shortage specialities where there are unfilled posts, less so in high demand specialities. So expect shortages in emergency medicine, paediatrics, obstetrics etc.
@kevverage: My friends outside Scotland: this is genuinely a thing.
Pray for us. https://t.co/5Sui9M5HzN
@moorlanddragon: @ScotNational Is there an English language version for those of us who don't speak fuckwit?
But, like I said, Docs are MC, they won't resign en masse.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4687983.ece
Muslims for Britain is a new campaign group that aims to win support for Brexit among the UK's 3 million Muslims
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12150386/Why-British-Muslims-should-vote-to-leave-the-EU.html
Striking doctors will make contracting out to private enterprise that is willing to turn up for work justified in the public eye.
It's a path that has been walked many many times before with the public sector.
The patients don't actually care so long as the treatment is fine and they are not handing over cash at the point of access.
I'm fed up of Docs moaning about this. All other public sector workers have had contract changes. Most private sector workers had pay/hours cuts and have no-where near as good a pension.
And on top of that they're overplaying their hand and threatening mass resignations.
The public won't wear it for much longer. And imposition won't hurt the Tory poll leads either.
Win Win.
2) The UK's goods exports are actually larger than the services exports - even though more than 10 times as many people work in the services sector than in manufacturing.
3) There is no guarantee that the UK's services surplus will continue any more than there was a guarantee that the UK's exports of motorbikes would in the 1950s.
4) Manufacturing workers have higher average productivity and earnings than those in the services sector.
5) The top end services sector is concentrated in and near London whereas manufacturing is spread more generally throughout the country.
6) The UK is an expensive place to do anything - especially so for those concentrated in and near London.
7) Concentrating too much of the UK's wealth creating / exporting earning into certain areas increases risk and encourages official tolerance of misconduct within them - see 'the banks' ad infinitum.
And you're not delivering, as you're too busy hijacking it as a cult or religion, rather than a service to be provided to it's many patients.
Ukip candidates criticise Islam/British muslim takes family to Syria to fight for ISIS
People will vote with their feet, and vacancies on rotas will worsen. This is likely to be highest in shortage specialities such as Paeds, Emergency Medicine and Obstetrics, and particularly so in less fashionable parts of the country. There is a real recruitment and retention problem.
Given you are obviously very passionate about your cause may I ask what you actually do in the NHS?
The only reason I ask is to formulate my opinion on what you say and its accuracy. I know who Hunt is and what he does but I need a balance. What do you do? ( don't need to know where, why or anything else)
Tks in advance
Antipodes are VERY different.
Being a Doc is a safe MC role - far more will buckle down and accept it than will move.
https://twitter.com/dailymailuk/status/697544716183797760
"EU referendum: Think-tanks carrying out 'independent' research to support Brexit have close links to Vote Leave"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-think-tanks-carrying-out-independent-research-to-support-brexit-have-close-links-to-a6866011.html
Wonder if they will have a look at some of those "independent" think tanks churning out pro-EU "research".
Many will just become resentful and do the bare minimum, refusing to cover rota vacancies.
It will not be an effective way of bringing about change in the NHS. Pissing off a key part of the workforce never is.
The simple fact of spreading staff thinner but more evenly across the week is not going to improve outcomes.
The only way of providing a 7 day NHS of well trained and equipped staff is the closure of many smaller units to emergdncy admissions. Small district hospitals simply do not have the staff to man a 7 day rota.
Staff who work more unsocial hours should be paid premiums to attract them! (Or not have those premiums reduced - as Hunt plans to do).
For all the main figures in the Leave campaign seem to think the world revolves around right-wingers and Tory voters, they would do well to remember there's no realistic route to a Leave victory which doesn't go through the Old Labour mining and industrial towns.
That happened.
That is a fact. https://t.co/hAgyxdIOdc
Trashing training and depleting the midweek staff is not the way to improve outcomes across the week. If that is done then it will be a levelling down rather than levelling up.
Don'tcha think?
Thank you.
And as I said earlier the inexorable rise in the NHS drugs bill is causing real financial strains. Newer biological treatments are often life changing in diseases like rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn's disease, psoriasis, hepatitis C infection, macular degeneration leading to blindness and the like, but they don't come cheap.
Also CCGs which under Lansley were meant to take a lead in commissioning have mostly their hands tied because getting on for two-thirds of their drugs budget goes on NICE-approved treatments.