Of course they could, but I find it a lot less likely. Once treaties start to get ripped up you're opening Pandora's box and Le Touquet is very unpopular in large parts of France.
No one is ripping up any treaties. If we do leave it will be under the terms of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which makes allowances and sets out the procedure for exactly such an event.
Just as Le Touquet has exit procedures too ...
It does. But no one who can actually do anything about them is talking about invoking them. Indeed the French are quite openly saying Cameron is talking rubbish.
Your desperate clinging to this argument has been very sad. It involves the French revoking treaties which are very much in their own interests, companies deciding to break the law and risk being prosecuted by the British and the British government then deciding to ignore the law and just let tunnel operators let the migrants flow.
It is so ludicrous that it just makes both Cameron and you look infantile and dishonest.
The French and the current British government consider us being in the EU very much in our interests but it is unpopular for much of the country and after public demand we are considering leaving. The British and the current French government consider France being a party to this Treaty to be very much in their interest but it is very unpopular for much of their country and after public demand you find their considering leaving it to be completely unimaginable.
Would be intersting to see Cameron's poll numbers with tory supporters after the pathetic EU deal,see if it's moved from his high satisfaction percentages.
The shine's coming off Cameron faster than it faded on Blair.
"It is understood that Downing Street has been taken aback by the furious reception given to the deal which – while always limited – they had deemed creditable for Mr Cameron’s ‘wins’ on child benefits, the end of ‘ever closer union’ and the advent of a ‘red card’ system to block EU laws."
Explains the air of Desperation from REMAIN, today.
Just an astonishing misjudgement from a politician who has got most things right for 10 years. I am genuinely baffled as to how he got himself in this position.
Its very positive news that it now looks like a better deal is in the works - perhaps I can be persuaded after all. But non-Euro protection being effective is nost critical thing. It would be much better that it needs three non-Euro nations and gets an actual block rather than one nation to trigger and just gets a reconsideration.
I also see French have now come out and said they won't move border in case of Brexit. God the Remain camp are having a torrid time.
We used to joke about Cameron coming back from Europe, with a worthless piece of paper in his hand, a la Chamberlain.
Never thought he'd actually do it.
To be fair to Chamberlain, most people believed - at that point - Hitler was still a normal statesman who could be relied on to keep his word. It is only with hindsight that the view that it was a worthless piece of paper has set in.
Britain's support for the Munich agreement was disgraceful, regardless of whether Hitler would have held to it. It may or may not have been expedient (it probably wasn't) but it was contemptible.
The DoH say, of course that this story is completely untrue but I know which side the public will believe.
My favourite suggestion from a Junior Doctor was to reopen negotiations only between 1900 and 2200 in the evenings and on Saturday afternoons. After all Hunt does say these are normal working hours!
No, the law then would be that Eurostar are forbidden from screening passengers by French law (as they are now) and are penalised for not screening passengers by the British which means unless the French fold (and why would they if they are choosing to shift the migrants on to us) that we are effectively left with the choice of close Eurostar or accept unlimited asylum seekers (as we were doing 15 years ago).
More scare mongering. The political pressure from the UK to prosecute Eurostar, even if it meant the company being forced to stop operating, would be immense. So in the end it would come back to a decision by the UK government and with the way the migrant crisis is now viewed no government that refused to enforce existing UK law to prevent migration would last more than 5 minutes.
Stop repeating Cameron's lies and admit this is just unfounded scare mongering.
It's not a lie, it is a problem that existed in real life within my memory. It is a lie to say that problem could not return.
Of course it's a lie, everyone confirms it's a lie. As to speculation of past historical problems returning, well communism is a past problem ,should we be worried about a communist revolution in Britain any moment now?
Well we have a Trot and a Stalinist as leader of the opposition and his number one supporter so no there must be no possibility of a return of communism being an issue here ...
Oh and just because every Leaver here says it is a lie does not make it a lie. This is a real issue that really existed 15 years ago PRIOR to the migration crisis that has engulfed Europe now. The idea that the French wouldn't even contemplate revoking their treaty at the same time as we are revoking our is the only lie in this thread.
For Cameron to be blasted as a liar by the Tories, the opposition and the french at the same time, is an achievement.
And you can't blast everyone who says so as a "leaver", when even the french themselves say it's a lie.
We used to joke about Cameron coming back from Europe, with a worthless piece of paper in his hand, a la Chamberlain.
Never thought he'd actually do it.
To be fair to Chamberlain, most people believed - at that point - Hitler was still a normal statesman who could be relied on to keep his word. It is only with hindsight that the view that it was a worthless piece of paper has set in.
Britain's support for the Munich agreement was disgraceful, regardless of whether Hitler would have held to it. It may or may not have been expedient (it probably wasn't) but it was contemptible.
I agree it was disgraceful, but my point was that we thought we'd going something in return for selling the Czechs down the river
Just an astonishing misjudgement from a politician who has got most things right for 10 years. I am genuinely baffled as to how he got himself in this position.
For starters there was a complete failure to persuade our EU partners that he really might back leave, so there was no need for them to entertain any serious negotiations. Thus Cameron has negotiated diddly squat which he is now spinning as a great resettlement of our position in the EU, because sticking to his word would mean backing leave and he didn't want to do that in the first place. FUBAR
I got sucked into Philip Thompson's talk of the treaty of Le Torquet. This actually has nothing at all to do with the Eurostar or Eurotunnel. Le Torquet only covers ferry services.
The agreement for Eurostar/Eurotunnel is the 2000 Additional Protocol to the Sangatte Protocol.
Just in case anyone is desperate enough to want to go and look at it.
The DoH say, of course that this story is completely untrue but I know which side the public will believe.
My favourite suggestion from a Junior Doctor was to reopen negotiations only between 1900 and 2200 in the evenings and on Saturday afternoons. After all Hunt does say these are normal working hours!
The DoH say, of course that this story is completely untrue but I know which side the public will believe.
My favourite suggestion from a Junior Doctor was to reopen negotiations only between 1900 and 2200 in the evenings and on Saturday afternoons. After all Hunt does say these are normal working hours!
Who thinks they aren't?
Hunt and his negotiators pack up at 1700 Monday to Friday for a start.
And I am told that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a Hospital on a Saturday himself!
Just an astonishing misjudgement from a politician who has got most things right for 10 years. I am genuinely baffled as to how he got himself in this position.
For starters there was a complete failure to persuade our EU partners that he really might back leave, so there was no need for them to entertain any serious negotiations. Thus Cameron has negotiated diddly squat which he is now spinning as a great resettlement of our position in the EU, because sticking to his word would mean backing leave and he didn't want to do that in the first place. FUBAR
That may be right but if so it was an equal misjudgement by the EU bureaucrats. Cameron has given a referendum and the British people, lord help us, will decide, not him. To give "their man" so little that he did not get opposition but ridicule was not a move in the right direction.
I got sucked into Philip Thompson's talk of the treaty of Le Torquet. This actually has nothing at all to do with the Eurostar or Eurotunnel. Le Torquet only covers ferry services.
The agreement for Eurostar/Eurotunnel is the 2000 Additional Protocol to the Sangatte Protocol.
Just in case anyone is desperate enough to want to go and look at it.
For the sake of accuracy I actually used that name because Cyclefree did and I responded to him. Either way this was a real crisis 15 years ago prior to the Additional Protocol being implemented and prior to the current and on-going migration crisis.
Anyone - and I include the French government here - who says that it is completely unimaginable that the French would revoke their agreements with us (whatever their name) while we are revoking ours with them while they are straining with the effects of millions of migrants coming into Europe has an amazing crystal ball.
So I guess we should assume that the French want to turn the Pas de Calais into a magnet for illegal immigration to punish us if we leave the EU.
I suppose it's a point of view.
Merkel has already opened the door to millions of migrants and the flood is not slowing.
I suppose the French will indefinitely want to guarantee our border is secure while theirs is unmanageable and the problem grows and grows.
I suppose it's a point of view.
They won't come to Calais in great numbers as long as they know it is difficult to get further. They would rather go to other countries which are easier to get into. The current agreement protects the French as much as it does the British. Hence the reason they are telling Cameron he is wrong.
If every English region outside London votes 53/47 Leave, it would counterbalance a 60/40 Remain vote in London, Scotland and Northern Ireland. (Assumes Wales is 50/50).
The DoH say, of course that this story is completely untrue but I know which side the public will believe.
My favourite suggestion from a Junior Doctor was to reopen negotiations only between 1900 and 2200 in the evenings and on Saturday afternoons. After all Hunt does say these are normal working hours!
Who thinks they aren't?
Hunt and his negotiators pack up at 1700 Monday to Friday for a start.
And I am told that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a Hospital on a Saturday himself!
Why would he bother, since there are fewer doctors working in them at the weekend. He's more likely to meet one at a wedding, taking photos of the bride for a few grand.
And besides, what's to be gained by having yet another politician poncing about in a hospital.
No, the law then would be that Eurostar are forbidden from screening passengers by French law (as they are now) and are penalised for not screening passengers by the British which means unless the French fold (and why would they if they are choosing to shift the migrants on to us) that we are effectively left with the choice of close Eurostar or accept unlimited asylum seekers (as we were doing 15 years ago).
More scare mongering. The political pressure from the UK to prosecute Eurostar, even if it meant the company being forced to stop operating, would be immense. So in the end it would come back to a decision by the UK government and with the way the migrant crisis is now viewed no government that refused to enforce existing UK law to prevent migration would last more than 5 minutes.
Stop repeating Cameron's lies and admit this is just unfounded scare mongering.
It's not a lie, it is a problem that existed in real life within my memory. It is a lie to say that problem could not return.
Of course it's a lie, everyone confirms it's a lie. As to speculation of past historical problems returning, well communism is a past problem ,should we be worried about a communist revolution in Britain any moment now?
Well we have a Trot and a Stalinist as leader of the opposition and his number one supporter so no there must be no possibility of a return of communism being an issue here ...
Oh and just because every Leaver here says it is a lie does not make it a lie. This is a real issue that really existed 15 years ago PRIOR to the migration crisis that has engulfed Europe now. The idea that the French wouldn't even contemplate revoking their treaty at the same time as we are revoking our is the only lie in this thread.
For Cameron to be blasted as a liar by the Tories, the opposition and the french at the same time, is an achievement.
And you can't blast everyone who says so as a "leaver", when even the french themselves say it's a lie.
When you say "the French" who exactly do you mean? Has Le Pen said it is a lie? Or the many people in France calling for this Treaty to be revoked, have they called it a lie?
The DoH say, of course that this story is completely untrue but I know which side the public will believe.
My favourite suggestion from a Junior Doctor was to reopen negotiations only between 1900 and 2200 in the evenings and on Saturday afternoons. After all Hunt does say these are normal working hours!
Who thinks they aren't?
Hunt and his negotiators pack up at 1700 Monday to Friday for a start.
And I am told that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a Hospital on a Saturday himself!
Why would he bother, since there are fewer doctors working in them at the weekends. He's more likely to meet one at a wedding, taking photos of the bride for a few grand.
Perhaps if he left home at the weekend himself then he might encounter a 7 day emergency NHS and gain a bit of insight as to what the real issues are?
No, the law then would be that Eurostar are forbidden from screening passengers by French law (as they are now) and are penalised for not screening passengers by the British which means unless the French fold (and why would they if they are choosing to shift the migrants on to us) that we are effectively left with the choice of close Eurostar or accept unlimited asylum seekers (as we were doing 15 years ago).
More scare mongering. The political pressure from the UK to prosecute Eurostar, even if it meant the company being forced to stop operating, would be immense. So in the end it would come back to a decision by the UK government and with the way the migrant crisis is now viewed no government that refused to enforce existing UK law to prevent migration would last more than 5 minutes.
Stop repeating Cameron's lies and admit this is just unfounded scare mongering.
It's not a lie, it is a problem that existed in real life within my memory. It is a lie to say that problem could not return.
Of course it's a lie, everyone confirms it's a lie. As to speculation of past historical problems returning, well communism is a past problem ,should we be worried about a communist revolution in Britain any moment now?
Well we have a Trot and a Stalinist as leader of the opposition and his number one supporter so no there must be no possibility of a return of communism being an issue here ...
Oh and just because every Leaver here says it is a lie does not make it a lie. This is a real issue that really existed 15 years ago PRIOR to the migration crisis that has engulfed Europe now. The idea that the French wouldn't even contemplate revoking their treaty at the same time as we are revoking our is the only lie in this thread.
For Cameron to be blasted as a liar by the Tories, the opposition and the french at the same time, is an achievement.
And you can't blast everyone who says so as a "leaver", when even the french themselves say it's a lie.
When you say "the French" who exactly do you mean? Has Le Pen said it is a lie? Or the many people in France calling for this Treaty to be revoked, have they called it a lie?
The same French who you said are contemplating revoking their treaty.
That may be right but if so it was an equal misjudgement by the EU bureaucrats. Cameron has given a referendum and the British people, lord help us, will decide, not him. To give "their man" so little that he did not get opposition but ridicule was not a move in the right direction.
I completely agree, if the EU wanted to help Cameron win over waverers they have done a terrible job.
So I guess we should assume that the French want to turn the Pas de Calais into a magnet for illegal immigration to punish us if we leave the EU.
I suppose it's a point of view.
Merkel has already opened the door to millions of migrants and the flood is not slowing.
I suppose the French will indefinitely want to guarantee our border is secure while theirs is unmanageable and the problem grows and grows.
I suppose it's a point of view.
They won't come to Calais in great numbers as long as they know it is difficult to get further. They would rather go to other countries which are easier to get into. The current agreement protects the French as much as it does the British. Hence the reason they are telling Cameron he is wrong.
Indeed it suits them at the moment, until it doesn't. Other nations are putting up border controls and tearing up Schengen while France has some of the longest, weakest and most porous and unmanageable borders of all of Europe because of simple geography.
That it suits the French today does not guarantee it will suit them tomorrow. Anyone who says otherwise is a psychic or a liar.
The DoH say, of course that this story is completely untrue but I know which side the public will believe.
My favourite suggestion from a Junior Doctor was to reopen negotiations only between 1900 and 2200 in the evenings and on Saturday afternoons. After all Hunt does say these are normal working hours!
Who thinks they aren't?
Hunt and his negotiators pack up at 1700 Monday to Friday for a start.
And I am told that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a Hospital on a Saturday himself!
Why would he bother, since there are fewer doctors working in them at the weekends. He's more likely to meet one at a wedding, taking photos of the bride for a few grand.
Perhaps if he left home at the weekend himself then he might encounter a 7 day emergency NHS and gain a bit of insight as to what the real issues are?
Presumably he'd find that hospitals had fewer staff working at the weekend and resources were under used. But then Hunt already knows that, as does everyone else with a brain.
Amazed anyone though EU would give UK Govt any real concessions. They've been utter shits for years.
Cameron's problem is either he thought he could pull off changes, and he's being naive. Or he thought he could give us smoke and mirrors.
Either way, bad move.
He should have said..'it's going to tough, we may not achieve much, but whatever the outcome, you, the people will get the vote to decide if to remain or to leave.'
I got sucked into Philip Thompson's talk of the treaty of Le Torquet. This actually has nothing at all to do with the Eurostar or Eurotunnel. Le Torquet only covers ferry services.
The agreement for Eurostar/Eurotunnel is the 2000 Additional Protocol to the Sangatte Protocol.
Just in case anyone is desperate enough to want to go and look at it.
For the sake of accuracy I actually used that name because Cyclefree did and I responded to him. Either way this was a real crisis 15 years ago prior to the Additional Protocol being implemented and prior to the current and on-going migration crisis.
Anyone - and I include the French government here - who says that it is completely unimaginable that the French would revoke their agreements with us (whatever their name) while we are revoking ours with them while they are straining with the effects of millions of migrants coming into Europe has an amazing crystal ball.
Well by real crisis you mean a total of 4000 asylum seekers in a year. Of course the agreement was then put in place as the simplest and easiest way at the time to deal with this. It remains so and will continue to remain so even if we leave the EU.
That is not to say there are not alternatives - the most obvious to be to prosecute the companies involved and to have immigration checks actually on the train. Anyone found without the right papers gets put onto a return train at the operators expense.
We are not in the same position as we were 15 years ago and public attitudes, for better or worse, are very different. If the simplest systems stop working then we use alternative ones which cause a lot more pain to the operators.
No, the law then would be that Eurostar are forbidden from screening passengers by French law (as they are now) and are penalised for not screening passengers by the British which means unless the French fold (and why would they if they are choosing to shift the migrants on to us) that we are effectively left with the choice of close Eurostar or accept unlimited asylum seekers (as we were doing 15 years ago).
More scare mongering. The political pressure from the UK to prosecute Eurostar, even if it meant the company being forced to stop operating, would be immense. So in the end it would come back to a decision by the UK government and with the way the migrant crisis is now viewed no government that refused to enforce existing UK law to prevent migration would last more than 5 minutes.
Stop repeating Cameron's lies and admit this is just unfounded scare mongering.
It's not a lie, it is a problem that existed in real life within my memory. It is a lie to say that problem could not return.
Of course it's a lie, everyone confirms it's a lie. As to speculation of past historical problems returning, well communism is a past problem ,should we be worried about a communist revolution in Britain any moment now?
Well we have a Trot and a Stalinist as leader of the opposition and his number one supporter so no there must be no possibility of a return of communism being an issue here ...
Oh and just because every Leaver here says it is a lie does not make it a lie. This is a real issue that really existed 15 years ago PRIOR to the migration crisis that has engulfed Europe now. The idea that the French wouldn't even contemplate revoking their treaty at the same time as we are revoking our is the only lie in this thread.
For Cameron to be blasted as a liar by the Tories, the opposition and the french at the same time, is an achievement.
And you can't blast everyone who says so as a "leaver", when even the french themselves say it's a lie.
When you say "the French" who exactly do you mean? Has Le Pen said it is a lie? Or the many people in France calling for this Treaty to be revoked, have they called it a lie?
The same French who you said are contemplating revoking their treaty.
No, because I said the French may in the future. As in the French populace and future potential French governments.
You are talking of a French government that exists today.
So I guess we should assume that the French want to turn the Pas de Calais into a magnet for illegal immigration to punish us if we leave the EU.
I suppose it's a point of view.
Merkel has already opened the door to millions of migrants and the flood is not slowing.
I suppose the French will indefinitely want to guarantee our border is secure while theirs is unmanageable and the problem grows and grows.
I suppose it's a point of view.
The French are acting in their own interests. Their interests coincide with ours in keeping illegal immigrants out of Northern France. You are supposing that they will want to hurt themselves just so they can punish us, if we leave the EU. It's desperate fear-mongering.
This is supposedly the year of authenticity—every fourth year, as it turns out, the voters have a unique craving for authentic politicians. By the measure of this strange fixation, Bush may be the most authentic of the pack—patrician, goofy, a little flummoxed
It must be encouraging for Number 10 that David Cameron is being soberly compared, on premier sites like pb, to Neville Chamberlain.
lol.
He's been called far worse.
This might stick.
To be honest, Cameron's worst time was in September 2007, when people were convinced Brown was going to call and win a snap general election.
People were speculating about the future of the Tory party and Dave being toppled (by David Davis)
Indeed that's why I call it a return to the 2012 and 2013 days.
The danger with referendums is that it becomes a referendum on the government without the risk of changing it, call it a massive protest vote.
And what do I see in the news? A financial crisis on the horizon, tax rises, petrol tax going up, the PM called a liar and a jellyfish even by his own party.
If people wanted to give a kicking at the government they will probably use the referendum as a protest.
It must be encouraging for Number 10 that David Cameron is being soberly compared, on premier sites like pb, to Neville Chamberlain.
lol.
He's been called far worse.
This might stick.
Only among the type of people who equate the EU with Nazi Germany.
Is a ridiculous analogy. Neville Chamberlain secured terms of a great deal just the other side was cold lying to him. Cameron secured poor deal with other side being honest.
Why are Kasich and Christie the same price on Betfair ?
Dunno.
I laid off Christie between 40-48 for the nomination. There's no evidence to back up that price right now.
Holding position on Kasich.
Finally all out of Bloomberg - Just laid off my last £200 stake @ 41/1. FT just reprted another bloomberg comment, which is basically him reiterating that he's still interested & watching the GOP race.
Good luck to those still betting on him.
I hope he does run, it would make for a fascinating betting contest.
Just an astonishing misjudgement from a politician who has got most things right for 10 years. I am genuinely baffled as to how he got himself in this position.
For starters there was a complete failure to persuade our EU partners that he really might back leave, so there was no need for them to entertain any serious negotiations. Thus Cameron has negotiated diddly squat which he is now spinning as a great resettlement of our position in the EU, because sticking to his word would mean backing leave and he didn't want to do that in the first place. FUBAR
That may be right but if so it was an equal misjudgement by the EU bureaucrats. Cameron has given a referendum and the British people, lord help us, will decide, not him. To give "their man" so little that he did not get opposition but ridicule was not a move in the right direction.
Exactly. I could heavily critique Cameron's negotiating style but I've no doubt he'd have got more if the EU were serious.
They aren't. This is the fault of the EU's truculence, arrogance and obstinacy.
This is supposedly the year of authenticity—every fourth year, as it turns out, the voters have a unique craving for authentic politicians. By the measure of this strange fixation, Bush may be the most authentic of the pack—patrician, goofy, a little flummoxed
The DoH say, of course that this story is completely untrue but I know which side the public will believe.
My favourite suggestion from a Junior Doctor was to reopen negotiations only between 1900 and 2200 in the evenings and on Saturday afternoons. After all Hunt does say these are normal working hours!
Who thinks they aren't?
Hunt and his negotiators pack up at 1700 Monday to Friday for a start.
And I am told that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a Hospital on a Saturday himself!
Told by who? Because I've seen him on the news visiting hospitals on a Saturday before.
Though it may be awkard given these multimillion pound buildings are so underutilised and understaffed on Saturdays.
It must be encouraging for Number 10 that David Cameron is being soberly compared, on premier sites like pb, to Neville Chamberlain.
lol.
He's been called far worse.
This might stick.
Only among the type of people who equate the EU with Nazi Germany.
Or leaders that come back with a pathetic deal and look weak on it.
So far we've had Dad's Army, "Who will speak for England?"'and Neville Chamberlain comparisons. I looking forward to chalking off Dambusters, D Day and The Great Escape in the coming weeks.
And they say that Leave has an image problem of being backward-looking xenophobes!
That may be right but if so it was an equal misjudgement by the EU bureaucrats. Cameron has given a referendum and the British people, lord help us, will decide, not him. To give "their man" so little that he did not get opposition but ridicule was not a move in the right direction.
I completely agree, if the EU wanted to help Cameron win over waverers they have done a terrible job.
Actually the EU objections are quite in keeping with the Single European Market that Maggie was so keen to bring about. The whole point of this EU and EEA agreement is the removal of non-tariff barriers. Cameron's deal does try to reimpose these.
Much of the hyperbole on here tonight about control of borders and closing down links to the continent makes EEA membership non-viable as an option for Leave. Anyone suggesting it will be the next one to be accused of appeasment.
It must be encouraging for Number 10 that David Cameron is being soberly compared, on premier sites like pb, to Neville Chamberlain.
lol.
He's been called far worse.
This might stick.
Only among the type of people who equate the EU with Nazi Germany.
Or leaders that come back with a pathetic deal and look weak on it.
So far we've had Dad's Army, "Who will speak for England?"'and Neville Chamberlain comparisons. I looking forward to chalking off Dambusters, D Day and The Great Escape in the coming weeks.
And they say that Leave has an image problem of being backward-looking xenophobes!
I've written a D Day themed thread coming up, specifically Operations Bodyguard/Fortitude
The DoH say, of course that this story is completely untrue but I know which side the public will believe.
My favourite suggestion from a Junior Doctor was to reopen negotiations only between 1900 and 2200 in the evenings and on Saturday afternoons. After all Hunt does say these are normal working hours!
Who thinks they aren't?
Hunt and his negotiators pack up at 1700 Monday to Friday for a start.
And I am told that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a Hospital on a Saturday himself!
Told by who? Because I've seen him on the news visiting hospitals on a Saturday before.
Though it may be awkard given these multimillion pound buildings are so underutilised and understaffed on Saturdays.
Can you cite one, apart from when he took his own children inappropriately?
That may be right but if so it was an equal misjudgement by the EU bureaucrats. Cameron has given a referendum and the British people, lord help us, will decide, not him. To give "their man" so little that he did not get opposition but ridicule was not a move in the right direction.
I completely agree, if the EU wanted to help Cameron win over waverers they have done a terrible job.
Actually the EU objections are quite in keeping with the Single European Market that Maggie was so keen to bring about. The whole point of this EU and EEA agreement is the removal of non-tariff barriers. Cameron's deal does try to reimpose these.
Much of the hyperbole on here tonight about control of borders and closing down links to the continent makes EEA membership non-viable as an option for Leave. Anyone suggesting it will be the next one to be accused of appeasment.
Bear in mind I am arguing against the stupid scaremongering by Cameron and his useful idiots. For me personally immigration is not a driving factor behind Brexit which is why I am in favour of EEA membership. I do realise however that I am in the minority with that view.
No, the law then would be that Eurostar are forbidden from screening passengers by French law (as they are now) and are penalised for not screening passengers by the British which means unless the French fold (and why would they if they are choosing to shift the migrants on to us) that we are effectively left with the choice of close Eurostar or accept unlimited asylum seekers (as we were doing 15 years ago).
More scare mongering. .
Stop repeating Cameron's lies and admit this is just unfounded scare mongering.
It's not a lie, it is a problem that existed in real life within my memory. It is a lie to say that problem could not return.
Of course it's a lie, everyone confirms it's a lie. As to speculation of past historical problems returning, well communism is a past problem ,should we be worried about a communist revolution in Britain any moment now?
Well we have a Trot and a Stalinist as leader of the opposition and his number one supporter so no there must be no possibility of a return of communism being an issue here ...
Oh and just because every Leaver here says it is a lie does not make it a lie. This is a real issue that really existed 15 years ago PRIOR to the migration crisis that has engulfed Europe now. The idea that the French wouldn't even contemplate revoking their treaty at the same time as we are revoking our is the only lie in this thread.
For Cameron to be blasted as a liar by the Tories, the opposition and the french at the same time, is an achievement.
And you can't blast everyone who says so as a "leaver", when even the french themselves say it's a lie.
When you say "the French" who exactly do you mean? Has Le Pen said it is a lie? Or the many people in France calling for this Treaty to be revoked, have they called it a lie?
The same French who you said are contemplating revoking their treaty.
No, because I said the French may in the future. As in the French populace and future potential French governments.
You are talking of a French government that exists today.
That is not remotely the same thing.
If they want to revoke the treaty, they can do it whether the UK votes Remain or Leave. It is nothing to do with the EU.
No, the law then would be that Eurostar are forbidden from screening passengers by French law (as they are now) and are penalised for not screening passengers by the British which means unless the French fold (and why would they if they are choosing to shift the migrants on to us) that we are effectively left with the choice of close Eurostar or accept unlimited asylum seekers (as we were doing 15 years ago).
Stop repeating Cameron's lies and admit this is just unfounded scare mongering.
It's not a lie, it is a problem that existed in real life within my memory. It is a lie to say that problem could not return.
Of course it's a lie, everyone confirms it's a lie. As to speculation of past historical problems returning, well communism is a past problem ,should we be worried about a communist revolution in Britain any moment now?
Well we have a Trot and a Stalinist as leader of the opposition and his number one supporter so no there must be no possibility of a return of communism being an issue here ...
Oh and just because every Leaver here says it is a lie does not make it a lie. This is a real issue that really existed 15 years ago PRIOR to the migration crisis that has engulfed Europe now. The idea that the French wouldn't even contemplate revoking their treaty at the same time as we are revoking our is the only lie in this thread.
For Cameron to be blasted as a liar by the Tories, the opposition and the french at the same time, is an achievement.
And you can't blast everyone who says so as a "leaver", when even the french themselves say it's a lie.
When you say "the French" who exactly do you mean? Has Le Pen said it is a lie? Or the many people in France calling for this Treaty to be revoked, have they called it a lie?
The same French who you said are contemplating revoking their treaty.
No, because I said the French may in the future. As in the French populace and future potential French governments.
You are talking of a French government that exists today.
That is not remotely the same thing.
"Future events such as these, will effect you, in the future"
The DoH say, of course that this story is completely untrue but I know which side the public will believe.
My favourite suggestion from a Junior Doctor was to reopen negotiations only between 1900 and 2200 in the evenings and on Saturday afternoons. After all Hunt does say these are normal working hours!
Who thinks they aren't?
Hunt and his negotiators pack up at 1700 Monday to Friday for a start.
And I am told that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a Hospital on a Saturday himself!
Why would he bother, since there are fewer doctors working in them at the weekends. He's more likely to meet one at a wedding, taking photos of the bride for a few grand.
Perhaps if he left home at the weekend himself then he might encounter a 7 day emergency NHS and gain a bit of insight as to what the real issues are?
After all the only time the hypocrite Jeremy Hunt visits hospitals at weekends is because he wants to waste their time on some trivial complaint his children have because he can't be bothered to get a GP appointment
Mr Hunt: I do agree with my hon. Friend. I took my own children to an A and E department at the weekend precisely because I did not want to wait until later on to take them to see a GP. We have to recognise that society is changing and people do not always know whether the care that they need is urgent or whether it is an emergency, and making GPs available at weekends will relieve a lot of pressure in A and E departments.
It must be encouraging for Number 10 that David Cameron is being soberly compared, on premier sites like pb, to Neville Chamberlain.
lol.
He's been called far worse.
This might stick.
Only among the type of people who equate the EU with Nazi Germany.
Or leaders that come back with a pathetic deal and look weak on it.
So far we've had Dad's Army, "Who will speak for England?"'and Neville Chamberlain comparisons. I looking forward to chalking off Dambusters, D Day and The Great Escape in the coming weeks.
And they say that Leave has an image problem of being backward-looking xenophobes!
Calm down dear,I supposed your still sitting on the fence then ;-)
I recommend the experience of reading continental EU thoughts, It will give you new respect for the UK press, and the UK's political debate, in general.
So I guess we should assume that the French want to turn the Pas de Calais into a magnet for illegal immigration to punish us if we leave the EU.
I suppose it's a point of view.
Merkel has already opened the door to millions of migrants and the flood is not slowing.
I suppose the French will indefinitely want to guarantee our border is secure while theirs is unmanageable and the problem grows and grows.
I suppose it's a point of view.
The French are acting in their own interests. Their interests coincide with ours in keeping illegal immigrants out of Northern France. You are supposing that they will want to hurt themselves just so they can punish us, if we leave the EU. It's desperate fear-mongering.
No, their interests coincide with ours in keeping them out today. But Europe is struggling massively and you are desperately pretending then you know for 100% certain that the millions of migrants who are still coming over to Europe in record numbers are going to stay out of Northern France and not end up in France anyway.
Unless you have a Tardis or Delorean there is simply no way to know that. The numbers who travelled during the bitter and dangerous month of January just gone make the number who travelled January last year pale into insignificance. The rate things are going this summer will see an exodus into Europe that makes last year look calm. At the same time nations with borders far more defendable than France's are putting up border controls left, right and centre making France a more attractive target in its own right.
Yet there is zero percent change that France are going to reach the point where they think its in their interests to shift the migrants beyond them and onto us. Yeah right!
Presumably he'd find that hospitals had fewer staff working at the weekend and resources were under used. But then Hunt already knows that, as does everyone else with a brain.
And he'd find hypocrites like him clogging up A&E departments.
It must be encouraging for Number 10 that David Cameron is being soberly compared, on premier sites like pb, to Neville Chamberlain.
lol.
He's been called far worse.
This might stick.
Only among the type of people who equate the EU with Nazi Germany.
Or leaders that come back with a pathetic deal and look weak on it.
So far we've had Dad's Army, "Who will speak for England?"'and Neville Chamberlain comparisons. I looking forward to chalking off Dambusters, D Day and The Great Escape in the coming weeks.
And they say that Leave has an image problem of being backward-looking xenophobes!
Calm down dear,I supposed your still sitting on the fence then ;-)
I'm astonished just how interested the more... traditional?... Leave posters are in my views on this subject. I gave my current thinking on a previous thread today for those that want the latest bulletin.
The DoH say, of course that this story is completely untrue but I know which side the public will believe.
My favourite suggestion from a Junior Doctor was to reopen negotiations only between 1900 and 2200 in the evenings and on Saturday afternoons. After all Hunt does say these are normal working hours!
Who thinks they aren't?
Hunt and his negotiators pack up at 1700 Monday to Friday for a start.
And I am told that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a Hospital on a Saturday himself!
Why would he bother, since there are fewer doctors working in them at the weekends. He's more likely to meet one at a wedding, taking photos of the bride for a few grand.
Perhaps if he left home at the weekend himself then he might encounter a 7 day emergency NHS and gain a bit of insight as to what the real issues are?
After all the only time the hypocrite Jeremy Hunt visits hospitals at weekends is because he wants to waste their time on some trivial complaint his children have because he can't be bothered to get a GP appointment
Mr Hunt: I do agree with my hon. Friend. I took my own children to an A and E department at the weekend precisely because I did not want to wait until later on to take them to see a GP. We have to recognise that society is changing and people do not always know whether the care that they need is urgent or whether it is an emergency, and making GPs available at weekends will relieve a lot of pressure in A and E departments.
So he was honest about a real problem and doing what countless people up and down the country are doing, saying he wants to fix the problem he inherited so he doesn't need to do what he did ... but he is in the wrong.
Seriously you just can't win with some people. It's not as if he was saying the status quo is great which is why he did it!
That may be right but if so it was an equal misjudgement by the EU bureaucrats. Cameron has given a referendum and the British people, lord help us, will decide, not him. To give "their man" so little that he did not get opposition but ridicule was not a move in the right direction.
I completely agree, if the EU wanted to help Cameron win over waverers they have done a terrible job.
If you read the EU press (which I have done the last few weeks, usually in Google translation) then their mindset is obvious They don't hate us. At all. Some actually admire us for our intransigence and naked self-interest. But that's how they see it. As self-interest.
They think we get a good deal as it is, with the euro and Schengen opt outs, along with access to the single market. They certainly resent the way we've made London the euro's financial centre, without suffering the euro itself.
They have a surprising lack of a wider perspective; why a great nation, with a deep liberal intellectual tradition, like the UK, might quite sensibly think: this is shit. The EU is not working. We want to go.
I recommend the experience of reading continental EU thoughts, It will give you new respect for the UK press, and the UK's political debate, in general.
I know the Italian newspapers are the worst, the sports ones are horrendous.
Just an astonishing misjudgement from a politician who has got most things right for 10 years. I am genuinely baffled as to how he got himself in this position.
For starters there was a complete failure to persuade our EU partners that he really might back leave, so there was no need for them to entertain any serious negotiations. Thus Cameron has negotiated diddly squat which he is now spinning as a great resettlement of our position in the EU, because sticking to his word would mean backing leave and he didn't want to do that in the first place. FUBAR
That may be right but if so it was an equal misjudgement by the EU bureaucrats. Cameron has given a referendum and the British people, lord help us, will decide, not him. To give "their man" so little that he did not get opposition but ridicule was not a move in the right direction.
Exactly. I could heavily critique Cameron's negotiating style but I've no doubt he'd have got more if the EU were serious.
They aren't. This is the fault of the EU's truculence, arrogance and obstinacy.
I think you may also have to look hard at the traditionally very Europhile Foreign Office advisors and the negotiating team who we were told were sorting out this deal before Cameron really got involved. I suspect they had a remit to get the absolute minimum to make sure this would be accepted by the EU and would be enough for Cameron to claim a victory. It might just be that those objectives are simply incompatible.
It must be encouraging for Number 10 that David Cameron is being soberly compared, on premier sites like pb, to Neville Chamberlain.
lol.
He's been called far worse.
This might stick.
Only among the type of people who equate the EU with Nazi Germany.
Is a ridiculous analogy. Neville Chamberlain secured terms of a great deal just the other side was cold lying to him. Cameron secured poor deal with other side being honest.
Indeed History repeats because as then as is now there were people at home on both occasions giving the true state of play yet, were ignored.
If you read the EU press (which I have done the last few weeks, usually in Google translation) then their mindset is obvious They don't hate us. At all. Some actually admire us for our intransigence and naked self-interest. But that's how they see it. As self-interest.
They think we get a good deal as it is, with the euro and Schengen opt outs, along with access to the single market. They certainly resent the way we've made London the euro's financial centre, without suffering the euro itself.
Oh I know many EU countries already think we have quite enough opt-outs, but you would think that if those countries want the UK to remain in the EU that they would at least give Cameron enough to help him make his case. Instead he's been given so little that even many of Cameron's fans are thinking "Is that it? Is this a joke?"
So I guess we should assume that the French want to turn the Pas de Calais into a magnet for illegal immigration to punish us if we leave the EU.
I suppose it's a point of view.
Merkel has already opened the door to millions of migrants and the flood is not slowing.
I suppose the French will indefinitely want to guarantee our border is secure while theirs is unmanageable and the problem grows and grows.
I suppose it's a point of view.
The French are acting in their own interests. Their interests coincide with ours in keeping illegal immigrants out of Northern France. You are supposing that they will want to hurt themselves just so they can punish us, if we leave the EU. It's desperate fear-mongering.
No, their interests coincide with ours in keeping them out today. But Europe is struggling massively and you are desperately pretending then you know for 100% certain that the millions of migrants who are still coming over to Europe in record numbers are going to stay out of Northern France and not end up in France anyway.
Unless you have a Tardis or Delorean there is simply no way to know that. The numbers who travelled during the bitter and dangerous month of January just gone make the number who travelled January last year pale into insignificance. The rate things are going this summer will see an exodus into Europe that makes last year look calm. At the same time nations with borders far more defendable than France's are putting up border controls left, right and centre making France a more attractive target in its own right.
Yet there is zero percent change that France are going to reach the point where they think its in their interests to shift the migrants beyond them and onto us. Yeah right!
There is zero chance that if that number of migrants had turned up in the Pas de Calais area we would choose to let them cross. Under those circumstances the government would indeed shut down the crossing rather than let large numbers of migrants into the country. It would then remain a French problem and they would have to deal with it.
They already know this which is why they would not let the situation arise.
The DoH say, of course that this story is completely untrue but I know which side the public will believe.
My favourite suggestion from a Junior Doctor was to reopen negotiations only between 1900 and 2200 in the evenings and on Saturday afternoons. After all Hunt does say these are normal working hours!
Who thinks they aren't?
Hunt and his negotiators pack up at 1700 Monday to Friday for a start.
And I am told that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a Hospital on a Saturday himself!
Told by who? Because I've seen him on the news visiting hospitals on a Saturday before.
Though it may be awkard given these multimillion pound buildings are so underutilised and understaffed on Saturdays.
Why does Hunt need to visit a hospital at the weekend anyway. To make a few doctors feel better about working a Sunday?
There's a massive department churning out reports and briefings for him, stuffed with facts and figures about what's going on in the health service. Presumably it's not all garbage.
It was from a parliamentary answer that it was revealed that Mr Hunt never visited a Hospital at the weekend in a professional capacity. You would have thought that a competent politician would have conspicuously done so on a number of occassions. Perhaps he had wedding engagements every weekend?
So I guess we should assume that the French want to turn the Pas de Calais into a magnet for illegal immigration to punish us if we leave the EU.
I suppose it's a point of view.
Merkel has already opened the door to millions of migrants and the flood is not slowing.
I suppose the French will indefinitely want to guarantee our border is secure while theirs is unmanageable and the problem grows and grows.
I suppose it's a point of view.
The French are acting in their own interests. Their interests coincide with ours in keeping illegal immigrants out of Northern France. You are supposing that they will want to hurt themselves just so they can punish us, if we leave the EU. It's desperate fear-mongering.
No, their interests coincide with ours in keeping them out today. But Europe is struggling massively and you are desperately pretending then you know for 100% certain that the millions of migrants who are still coming over to Europe in record numbers are going to stay out of Northern France and not end up in France anyway.
Unless you have a Tardis or Delorean there is simply no way to know that. The numbers who travelled during the bitter and dangerous month of January just gone make the number who travelled January last year pale into insignificance. The rate things are going this summer will see an exodus into Europe that makes last year look calm. At the same time nations with borders far more defendable than France's are putting up border controls left, right and centre making France a more attractive target in its own right.
Yet there is zero percent change that France are going to reach the point where they think its in their interests to shift the migrants beyond them and onto us. Yeah right!
There is zero chance that if that number of migrants had turned up in the Pas de Calais area we would choose to let them cross. Under those circumstances the government would indeed shut down the crossing rather than let large numbers of migrants into the country. It would then remain a French problem and they would have to deal with it.
They already know this which is why they would not let the situation arise.
I am less certain than you the government would indeed shut down the crossing. We'd have a lot to lose as the French know.
Either way we are talking about a potential French problem today. There is every reason to think that in the future we will be talking about an existing French problem which changes the risk ratio for the French.
First precincts close just after 8AM Tuesday London time, about 9 hours from now. Most precincts close at 2 AM Wednesday London time. The last ones close at 3 AM Wednesday London time. Exit polls released at 3 AM Wednesday London time, 10% of results would be already in by then.
So he was honest about a real problem and doing what countless people up and down the country are doing, saying he wants to fix the problem he inherited so he doesn't need to do what he did ... but he is in the wrong.
Seriously you just can't win with some people. It's not as if he was saying the status quo is great which is why he did it!
Yes he was wrong because his department spends a great deal of money telling the "ordinary" people they should only visit A&E for “life-threatening emergencies” including severe blood loss, unconsciousness and breathing difficulties. It's a non-efficient waste of resources. It's not as if he - being self employed - can't find the time to visit the GP at another time. It's do as I say not as I do with him.
First precincts close just after 8AM Tuesday London time, about 9 hours from now. Most precincts close at 2 AM Wednesday London time. The last ones close at 3 AM Wednesday London time. Exit polls released at 3 AM Wednesday London time, 10% of results would be already in by then.
Cheers, I'll have finished watching Deadpool by about 2.30am UK time on Wednesday
So he was honest about a real problem and doing what countless people up and down the country are doing, saying he wants to fix the problem he inherited so he doesn't need to do what he did ... but he is in the wrong.
Seriously you just can't win with some people. It's not as if he was saying the status quo is great which is why he did it!
Yes he was wrong because his department spends a great deal of money telling the "ordinary" people they should only visit A&E for “life-threatening emergencies” including severe blood loss, unconsciousness and breathing difficulties. It's a non-efficient waste of resources. It's not as if he - being self employed - can't find the time to visit the GP at another time. It's do as I say not as I do with him.
How is he self-employed?
Yes it is a problem and so it should be fixed. He shouldn't have done it but he's far from the only one.
The DoH say, of course that this story is completely untrue but I know which side the public will believe.
My favourite suggestion from a Junior Doctor was to reopen negotiations only between 1900 and 2200 in the evenings and on Saturday afternoons. After all Hunt does say these are normal working hours!
Who thinks they aren't?
Hunt and his negotiators pack up at 1700 Monday to Friday for a start.
And I am told that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a Hospital on a Saturday himself!
Told by who? Because I've seen him on the news visiting hospitals on a Saturday before.
Though it may be awkard given these multimillion pound buildings are so underutilised and understaffed on Saturdays.
Why does Hunt need to visit a hospital at the weekend anyway. To make a few doctors feel better about working a Sunday?
There's a massive department churning out reports and briefings for him, stuffed with facts and figures about what's going on in the health service. Presumably it's not all garbage.
Perhaps if he visited a few departments at weekends he could speak to frontline staff and ask their views on what the barriers are?
Or perhaps he just wants the weekend with his family while schools are out...
If they want to revoke the treaty, they can do it whether the UK votes Remain or Leave. It is nothing to do with the EU.
I agree 100% with that. I just think it is much, much more likely to happen if we vote Leave as it will give the French a perfect excuse to revoke it.
They don't want an excuse. The treaty helps them as much as it helps us. The alternative is a massive pull factor sucking more migrants into North western France and us then closing the border. No sane French leader - and probably few insane ones - would do that.
It was from a parliamentary answer that it was revealed that Mr Hunt never visited a Hospital at the weekend in a professional capacity. You would have thought that a competent politician would have conspicuously done so on a number of occassions. Perhaps he had wedding engagements every weekend?
So he was honest about a real problem and doing what countless people up and down the country are doing, saying he wants to fix the problem he inherited so he doesn't need to do what he did ... but he is in the wrong.
Seriously you just can't win with some people. It's not as if he was saying the status quo is great which is why he did it!
Yes he was wrong because his department spends a great deal of money telling the "ordinary" people they should only visit A&E for “life-threatening emergencies” including severe blood loss, unconsciousness and breathing difficulties. It's a non-efficient waste of resources. It's not as if he - being self employed - can't find the time to visit the GP at another time. It's do as I say not as I do with him.
So, Hunt visiting/not visiting a hospital at the weekend like everyone else is good/bad depending on whether he has his children with him or not. Imagine the shrieking if he took them for private treatment.
If they want to revoke the treaty, they can do it whether the UK votes Remain or Leave. It is nothing to do with the EU.
I agree 100% with that. I just think it is much, much more likely to happen if we vote Leave as it will give the French a perfect excuse to revoke it.
They don't want an excuse. The treaty helps them as much as it helps us. The alternative is a massive pull factor sucking more migrants into North western France and us then closing the border. No sane French leader - and probably few insane ones - would do that.
Unless the scales had tipped so that people were already pulled to France anyway regardless of Calais.
As is happening. As is getting worse.
Unless you think this migrant crisis gripping Europe is going to disappear tomorrow the idea that France won't possibly see the risk/reward ratio change is just not credible to me. You obviously are a lot more optimistic than I am.
If they want to revoke the treaty, they can do it whether the UK votes Remain or Leave. It is nothing to do with the EU.
I agree 100% with that. I just think it is much, much more likely to happen if we vote Leave as it will give the French a perfect excuse to revoke it.
They don't want an excuse. The treaty helps them as much as it helps us. The alternative is a massive pull factor sucking more migrants into North western France and us then closing the border. No sane French leader - and probably few insane ones - would do that.
Absolutely agree. It is no more in the French interest than ours.
So he was honest about a real problem and doing what countless people up and down the country are doing, saying he wants to fix the problem he inherited so he doesn't need to do what he did ... but he is in the wrong.
Seriously you just can't win with some people. It's not as if he was saying the status quo is great which is why he did it!
Yes he was wrong because his department spends a great deal of money telling the "ordinary" people they should only visit A&E for “life-threatening emergencies” including severe blood loss, unconsciousness and breathing difficulties. It's a non-efficient waste of resources. It's not as if he - being self employed - can't find the time to visit the GP at another time. It's do as I say not as I do with him.
So, Hunt visiting/not visiting a hospital at the weekend like everyone else is good/bad depending on whether he has his children with him or not. Imagine the shrieking if he took them for private treatment.
Surely he could just have Consulted Dr Google concerning his children?
So he was honest about a real problem and doing what countless people up and down the country are doing, saying he wants to fix the problem he inherited so he doesn't need to do what he did ... but he is in the wrong.
Seriously you just can't win with some people. It's not as if he was saying the status quo is great which is why he did it!
Yes he was wrong because his department spends a great deal of money telling the "ordinary" people they should only visit A&E for “life-threatening emergencies” including severe blood loss, unconsciousness and breathing difficulties. It's a non-efficient waste of resources. It's not as if he - being self employed - can't find the time to visit the GP at another time. It's do as I say not as I do with him.
How is he self-employed?
Yes it is a problem and so it should be fixed. He shouldn't have done it but he's far from the only one.
So he was honest about a real problem and doing what countless people up and down the country are doing, saying he wants to fix the problem he inherited so he doesn't need to do what he did ... but he is in the wrong.
Seriously you just can't win with some people. It's not as if he was saying the status quo is great which is why he did it!
Yes he was wrong because his department spends a great deal of money telling the "ordinary" people they should only visit A&E for “life-threatening emergencies” including severe blood loss, unconsciousness and breathing difficulties. It's a non-efficient waste of resources. It's not as if he - being self employed - can't find the time to visit the GP at another time. It's do as I say not as I do with him.
So, Hunt visiting/not visiting a hospital at the weekend like everyone else is good/bad depending on whether he has his children with him or not. Imagine the shrieking if he took them for private treatment.
It's entirely bad whether he had children with him or not. He's abusing the system and knows it it - that makes it worse. The public know a wrong 'un when they see one and Hunt was rumbled ages ago.
If this is accurate, I can see a scenario where Trump does not win, but it would require several outliers to happen simultaneously: 1. if there is an overstatement of Trump's voting support; 2. if most independents chose to vote in the GOP primary; and 3. momentum continues slightly away from Trump and Rubio and towards Kasich and Bush
then an outcome of Trump 23, Kasich 24, Rubio 13, Bush 16, Cruz 11 is possible.
That would make for an interesting few weeks ahead of us. Only Christie would be getting obvious signals to leave the race, and he has indicated that he already has his flight to SC booked (but he would say that, wouldn't he?)
1. The deputy Mayor of Calais, Philippe Mignonet, bolstered his case by telling the BBC: "We will have to cancel these agreements, because England won't be in Europe anymore. So that will really be a foreign country for us."
Compare that with:
2. But the UK's former chief inspector of borders and immigration, John Vine, told the BBC's World at One he didn't think the UK's exit from the EU would lead to an immediate collapse in cross border arrangements with France.
"I don't necessarily think this would collapse overnight. If it didn't exist there would still be border controls. We would have to rely on the Belgians and the French," he said.
and:
3. Leave.EU co-founder, Arron Banks said: "The agreement we have to process migrants in Calais is with France, not the EU. There is no reason for this to change on Leaving the EU.
What this is eating away at is two planks of the Leave campaign: (a) eliding the EU with the migrant crisis, and (b) the Salmond-style argument that we can get everything we want with the other side having no say.
Of course, Cameron's argument is bogus, although as I said this morning it's hilarious to see the Leave side complaining about that, since one of their principal political points is the bogus argument that leaving the EU has got anything much to do with how the migrant crisis affects us. But leaving aside the reality, the politics on migration has been one-sided to date, on the Leave side. That's why Farage kept popping up last year talking about Calais (PBers weren't fooled by that, of course, were you?). Geese and ganders come to mind...
Comments
The British and the current French government consider France being a party to this Treaty to be very much in their interest but it is very unpopular for much of their country and after public demand you find their considering leaving it to be completely unimaginable.
Why exactly?
I also see French have now come out and said they won't move border in case of Brexit. God the Remain camp are having a torrid time.
The only people more reprehensible than stockbrokers were stockjobbers
I suppose the French will indefinitely want to guarantee our border is secure while theirs is unmanageable and the problem grows and grows.
I suppose it's a point of view.
Why are Kasich and Christie the same price on Betfair ?
And you can't blast everyone who says so as a "leaver", when even the french themselves say it's a lie.
I got sucked into Philip Thompson's talk of the treaty of Le Torquet. This actually has nothing at all to do with the Eurostar or Eurotunnel. Le Torquet only covers ferry services.
The agreement for Eurostar/Eurotunnel is the 2000 Additional Protocol to the Sangatte Protocol.
Just in case anyone is desperate enough to want to go and look at it.
It's a point of view I suppose.
And I am told that Mr Hunt is yet to visit a Hospital on a Saturday himself!
This is his worst 2 weeks since Carswell left for UKIP.
Don't think this is going to get better any time soon...
David Cameron says no to televised debate about the EU referendum
EXCLUSIVE: The PM will agree to a Question Time-format TV show
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6917672/David-Cameron-says-no-to-televised-debate-about-the-EU-referendum.html
Anyone - and I include the French government here - who says that it is completely unimaginable that the French would revoke their agreements with us (whatever their name) while we are revoking ours with them while they are straining with the effects of millions of migrants coming into Europe has an amazing crystal ball.
And besides, what's to be gained by having yet another politician poncing about in a hospital.
In the 2014 euros it was Clegg who took the plunge.
People were speculating about the future of the Tory party and Dave being toppled (by David Davis)
'I have in my hand a piece of paper'
The media are shooting down the arguments in flames faster than scrambled RAF fighters did to Stukas over Kent.
That it suits the French today does not guarantee it will suit them tomorrow. Anyone who says otherwise is a psychic or a liar.
Cameron's problem is either he thought he could pull off changes, and he's being naive. Or he thought he could give us smoke and mirrors.
Either way, bad move.
He should have said..'it's going to tough, we may not achieve much, but whatever the outcome, you, the people will get the vote to decide if to remain or to leave.'
Simples!
I don't think he wins, but perhaps he murders democrats in big blue states..
That's my initial impression anyway - can see him doing well in New York, California, the NE seaboard.
That is not to say there are not alternatives - the most obvious to be to prosecute the companies involved and to have immigration checks actually on the train. Anyone found without the right papers gets put onto a return train at the operators expense.
We are not in the same position as we were 15 years ago and public attitudes, for better or worse, are very different. If the simplest systems stop working then we use alternative ones which cause a lot more pain to the operators.
You are talking of a French government that exists today.
That is not remotely the same thing.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/02/jeb_bush_may_actually_have_a_shot_at_the_republican_nomination.html
Best bit:
This is supposedly the year of authenticity—every fourth year, as it turns out, the voters have a unique craving for authentic politicians. By the measure of this strange fixation, Bush may be the most authentic of the pack—patrician, goofy, a little flummoxed
The danger with referendums is that it becomes a referendum on the government without the risk of changing it, call it a massive protest vote.
And what do I see in the news?
A financial crisis on the horizon, tax rises, petrol tax going up, the PM called a liar and a jellyfish even by his own party.
If people wanted to give a kicking at the government they will probably use the referendum as a protest.
I laid off Christie between 40-48 for the nomination. There's no evidence to back up that price right now.
Holding position on Kasich.
Finally all out of Bloomberg - Just laid off my last £200 stake @ 41/1. FT just reprted another bloomberg comment, which is basically him reiterating that he's still interested & watching the GOP race.
Good luck to those still betting on him.
I hope he does run, it would make for a fascinating betting contest.
They aren't. This is the fault of the EU's truculence, arrogance and obstinacy.
Though it may be awkard given these multimillion pound buildings are so underutilised and understaffed on Saturdays.
And they say that Leave has an image problem of being backward-looking xenophobes!
Much of the hyperbole on here tonight about control of borders and closing down links to the continent makes EEA membership non-viable as an option for Leave. Anyone suggesting it will be the next one to be accused of appeasment.
* full media name NHS in crisis
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/02/emily-thornberry-heckled-labour-mps-tensions-over-trident-erupt
When will Osborne hold the renewal vote? One week before the local elections?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb6H14gVWjM
Mr Hunt: I do agree with my hon. Friend. I took my own children to an A and E department at the weekend precisely because I did not want to wait until later on to take them to see a GP. We have to recognise that society is changing and people do not always know whether the care that they need is urgent or whether it is an emergency, and making GPs available at weekends will relieve a lot of pressure in A and E departments.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmhansrd/cm141125/debtext/141125-0001.htm#14112530000020
Unless you have a Tardis or Delorean there is simply no way to know that. The numbers who travelled during the bitter and dangerous month of January just gone make the number who travelled January last year pale into insignificance. The rate things are going this summer will see an exodus into Europe that makes last year look calm. At the same time nations with borders far more defendable than France's are putting up border controls left, right and centre making France a more attractive target in its own right.
Yet there is zero percent change that France are going to reach the point where they think its in their interests to shift the migrants beyond them and onto us. Yeah right!
I'm at the cinema early hours of Wednesday.
Seriously you just can't win with some people. It's not as if he was saying the status quo is great which is why he did it!
History repeats because as then as is now there were people at home on both occasions giving the true state of play yet, were ignored.
They already know this which is why they would not let the situation arise.
Trump 31 -4
Bush 16 -2
Kasich 13 -1
Rubio 12 +3
Cruz 11 +3
http://www.theecps.com/
There's a massive department churning out reports and briefings for him, stuffed with facts and figures about what's going on in the health service. Presumably it's not all garbage.
It was from a parliamentary answer that it was revealed that Mr Hunt never visited a Hospital at the weekend in a professional capacity. You would have thought that a competent politician would have conspicuously done so on a number of occassions. Perhaps he had wedding engagements every weekend?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-hunt-under-pressure-over-6918825
Either way we are talking about a potential French problem today. There is every reason to think that in the future we will be talking about an existing French problem which changes the risk ratio for the French.
First precincts close just after 8AM Tuesday London time, about 9 hours from now.
Most precincts close at 2 AM Wednesday London time.
The last ones close at 3 AM Wednesday London time.
Exit polls released at 3 AM Wednesday London time, 10% of results would be already in by then.
Yes it is a problem and so it should be fixed. He shouldn't have done it but he's far from the only one.
Or perhaps he just wants the weekend with his family while schools are out...
As is happening. As is getting worse.
Unless you think this migrant crisis gripping Europe is going to disappear tomorrow the idea that France won't possibly see the risk/reward ratio change is just not credible to me. You obviously are a lot more optimistic than I am.
http://metro.co.uk/2016/02/01/jeremy-hunts-latest-piece-of-advice-branded-ludicrous-by-people-who-actually-know-what-theyre-talking-about-5656759/
He really is a plonker!
1. if there is an overstatement of Trump's voting support;
2. if most independents chose to vote in the GOP primary; and
3. momentum continues slightly away from Trump and Rubio and towards Kasich and Bush
then an outcome of Trump 23, Kasich 24, Rubio 13, Bush 16, Cruz 11 is possible.
That would make for an interesting few weeks ahead of us. Only Christie would be getting obvious signals to leave the race, and he has indicated that he already has his flight to SC booked (but he would say that, wouldn't he?)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35519210
and notice three key quotes:
1. The deputy Mayor of Calais, Philippe Mignonet, bolstered his case by telling the BBC: "We will have to cancel these agreements, because England won't be in Europe anymore. So that will really be a foreign country for us."
Compare that with:
2. But the UK's former chief inspector of borders and immigration, John Vine, told the BBC's World at One he didn't think the UK's exit from the EU would lead to an immediate collapse in cross border arrangements with France.
"I don't necessarily think this would collapse overnight. If it didn't exist there would still be border controls. We would have to rely on the Belgians and the French," he said.
and:
3. Leave.EU co-founder, Arron Banks said: "The agreement we have to process migrants in Calais is with France, not the EU. There is no reason for this to change on Leaving the EU.
What this is eating away at is two planks of the Leave campaign: (a) eliding the EU with the migrant crisis, and (b) the Salmond-style argument that we can get everything we want with the other side having no say.
Of course, Cameron's argument is bogus, although as I said this morning it's hilarious to see the Leave side complaining about that, since one of their principal political points is the bogus argument that leaving the EU has got anything much to do with how the migrant crisis affects us. But leaving aside the reality, the politics on migration has been one-sided to date, on the Leave side. That's why Farage kept popping up last year talking about Calais (PBers weren't fooled by that, of course, were you?). Geese and ganders come to mind...