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  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,667
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Apols if previously posted here:

    Markit/CIPS UK Manufacturing PMI
    UK manufacturing growth accelerates at start of 2016 to 52.9, against market expectations of around 51.4.
    Excellent news although the share prices remain depressed this morning.

    Manufacturing PMIs were generally good around Europe and in Japan, with China, Russia and France struggling:
    Spain	55.5
    Sweden 55.5
    Ireland 54.3
    Italy 53.2
    UK 52.9
    Germany 52.3
    Japan 52.3
    France 50.0
    Russia 49.8
    China 48.4
    I would say the Germans are struggling as well given the record monetary stimulus from the ECB and how depressed the Euro is vs GBP and USD.

    The ECB is playing a beggar-thy-neighbour strategy to jump start EU growth, but only Spain and Ireland are really pushing forwards with it
    I think the collapse in the price of oil is benefiting Europe too. Worth remembering that almost all Euopean countries are big energy importers.
    Very true, and yet France is still barely treading water.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,211
    edited February 2016
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Apols if previously posted here:

    Markit/CIPS UK Manufacturing PMI
    UK manufacturing growth accelerates at start of 2016 to 52.9, against market expectations of around 51.4.
    Excellent news although the share prices remain depressed this morning.

    Manufacturing PMIs were generally good around Europe and in Japan, with China, Russia and France struggling:
    Spain	55.5
    Sweden 55.5
    Ireland 54.3
    Italy 53.2
    UK 52.9
    Germany 52.3
    Japan 52.3
    France 50.0
    Russia 49.8
    China 48.4
    I would say the Germans are struggling as well given the record monetary stimulus from the ECB and how depressed the Euro is vs GBP and USD.

    The ECB is playing a beggar-thy-neighbour strategy to jump start EU growth, but only Spain and Ireland are really pushing forwards with it
    I think the collapse in the price of oil is benefiting Europe too. Worth remembering that almost all Euopean countries are big energy importers.
    Very true, and yet France is still barely treading water.
    Absolutely, and whatever you think of the Euro, Spain has taken dramatic steps to open up its economy, and Italy is (belatedly) following it. France is the great unreformed European economy, and will be where the Euro lives or dies.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,667
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Apols if previously posted here:

    Markit/CIPS UK Manufacturing PMI
    UK manufacturing growth accelerates at start of 2016 to 52.9, against market expectations of around 51.4.
    Excellent news although the share prices remain depressed this morning.

    Manufacturing PMIs were generally good around Europe and in Japan, with China, Russia and France struggling:
    Spain	55.5
    Sweden 55.5
    Ireland 54.3
    Italy 53.2
    UK 52.9
    Germany 52.3
    Japan 52.3
    France 50.0
    Russia 49.8
    China 48.4
    I would say the Germans are struggling as well given the record monetary stimulus from the ECB and how depressed the Euro is vs GBP and USD.

    The ECB is playing a beggar-thy-neighbour strategy to jump start EU growth, but only Spain and Ireland are really pushing forwards with it
    I think the collapse in the price of oil is benefiting Europe too. Worth remembering that almost all Euopean countries are big energy importers.
    Very true, and yet France is still barely treading water.
    Absolutely, and whatever you think of the Euro, Spain has taken dramatic steps to open up its economy, and Italy is (belatedly) following it. France is the great unreformed European economy, and will be where the Euro lives or dies.
    Yes of course, worse still is that the harder Hollande or whoever replaces him push for reform the more it will push people towards MLP who wants more protectionism and to increase public sector spending further.
  • Options
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    The poll Plato posted suggests that Rubio is definitely worth a punt, both in Iowa and nationally (if he wins Iowa his odds will change dramatically). Not a huge punt as it's only one poll, but still.

    rcs's analysis of what we should do on refugees is really accurate IMO, and pretty much what I've been arguing for over a year. We should make peaceful countries in the region an irresistible cash offer to operate decent migrant camps with some prospect of actually making a living there while things are (we hope) sorted out. It would be a very sensible investment.

    Thoughtful piece by Tatchell on the balance between tolerating free speech and tolerating bigotry, which I think many here will agree with (still not sure what I think myself):

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/01/gay-cake-row-i-changed-my-mind-ashers-bakery-freedom-of-conscience-religion

    That's good to hear, as it was a very peculiar decision to bring a case.

    AIUI, and as was argued in NI at the time, it was not clear how it was even possible that anyone had been discriminated against at all, since discrimination is against people because of their sexual orientation and it was not clear that the shop knew that their customer was a person, or if so what their orientation was.

    Another of those, like the Google Tax Flap, where some campaigners wanted the law to say something different to that which it actually does.
    The judge found as a fact that the cake shop owners assumed the customer was gay from the request. It seems an entirely reasonable finding on the face of it.
    Thank-you for that. I find the Judge's ruling a little entrepreneurial.
    The full judgment is here:

    http://www.equalityni.org/ECNI/media/ECNI/Cases and Settlements/2015/Lee-v-Ashers_Judgement.pdf

    Paragraph 39 deals with this finding of fact and why the judge made it.

    Paragraph 12 is among the most Northern Irish paragraphs ever written.
  • Options

    MattW said:

    The poll Plato posted suggests that Rubio is definitely worth a punt, both in Iowa and nationally (if he wins Iowa his odds will change dramatically). Not a huge punt as it's only one poll, but still.

    rcs's analysis of what we should do on refugees is really accurate IMO, and pretty much what I've been arguing for over a year. We should make peaceful countries in the region an irresistible cash offer to operate decent migrant camps with some prospect of actually making a living there while things are (we hope) sorted out. It would be a very sensible investment.

    Thoughtful piece by Tatchell on the balance between tolerating free speech and tolerating bigotry, which I think many here will agree with (still not sure what I think myself):

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/01/gay-cake-row-i-changed-my-mind-ashers-bakery-freedom-of-conscience-religion

    That's good to hear, as it was a very peculiar decision to bring a case.

    AIUI, and as was argued in NI at the time, it was not clear how it was even possible that anyone had been discriminated against at all, since discrimination is against people because of their sexual orientation and it was not clear that the shop knew that their customer was a person, or if so what their orientation was.

    Another of those, like the Google Tax Flap, where some campaigners wanted the law to say something different to that which it actually does.
    The judge found as a fact that the cake shop owners assumed the customer was gay from the request. It seems an entirely reasonable finding on the face of it.
    As I understand it, the plaintiff was a regular customer at the bakery before the cake incident. So the Ashers weren't refusing to serve him because he was gay, but rather because they didn't want to produce a cake promoting a message with which they profoundly disagreed.

  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Or maybe the seven dwarves all end up on around 8%, and Trump saunters to the nomination with Cruz in his wake.

    This might happen in Iowa but I don't think you ever get a lot of similar candidates remaining viable (ie funded) for a long time; Sooner or later one of them emerges as the one with the longest chain and the rest of them get orphaned.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2016
    O/T:
    Mark Steyn talks about Merkel, Germany and the EU:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xAjo16Z2M8
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,118

    Mr. Flightpath, then Ashdown was a fool. Why would a PM with a landslide alter the voting system?

    The promise was made before the election, when Blair expected only a slim majority, if one at all.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,118

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OKC Kennedy the drunk and Paddy the philanderer..men of principle indeed..Clegg was a ditherer

    So, the principles were drinking and f*cking.
    :lol:
    I'd have thought that Kennedy was a more successfully f*cker than Mr Pantsdown.

    Didn't Pantdowns score one, while even Mr Cleggover claimed to have scored 30?

    The nypost lists a dozen for JFK without breaking sweat: http://nypost.com/2013/11/10/all-the-presidents-women-3/

    Ah. Powerful men and their activities.
    Drinking and adultery are not proclivities restricted solely to powerful men, it happens rather a lot in every town and village. - As for Clegg, relations with 30 women before settling down is nothing for a healthy, good looking chap. :wink:
    Are you boasting?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,211
    @MaxPB, I wish we got regular French opinion polls. It's a source of enormous annoyance that they come out so infrequently.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,187

    If shagging is the key criterion of Lib Dem leadership, perhaps they should defrost Austin Powers.

    But somebody has stolen the LibDem's mojo....
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,026
    Wonder if the headline writers will go with "A bridge too far" when Chris Christie drops out.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2016
    A very interesting article about some political focus groups organised by the Irish Times. Well worth a read even if you're not particularly interested in Irish politics - many of the themes would apply here or in the US:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/election-2016/what-irish-voters-really-think-1.2515570
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'The PMIs are generally considered the best "forward looking" economic activity indicator.'

    The PMI headline numbers are a coincident indicator of output, not a forward-looking one (except in the sense that GDP comes out later due to publication lags). Sub-indices may have forward-looking elements.
  • Options

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OKC Kennedy the drunk and Paddy the philanderer..men of principle indeed..Clegg was a ditherer

    So, the principles were drinking and f*cking.
    :lol:
    I'd have thought that Kennedy was a more successfully f*cker than Mr Pantsdown.

    Didn't Pantdowns score one, while even Mr Cleggover claimed to have scored 30?

    The nypost lists a dozen for JFK without breaking sweat: http://nypost.com/2013/11/10/all-the-presidents-women-3/

    Ah. Powerful men and their activities.
    Drinking and adultery are not proclivities restricted solely to powerful men, it happens rather a lot in every town and village. - As for Clegg, relations with 30 women before settling down is nothing for a healthy, good looking chap. :wink:
    Are you boasting?
    Mr OKC, modesty forbids confirmation :lol:
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,026
    I think people are getting the Liberals mixed up with the young Conservatives.
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    The Iowa Caucuses (should it be Cauci?)

    We're finally here. Votes will be cast and there will be a result. The caucuses begin at 7pm central. The networks are saying that results will start about 10pm Central (11pm Eastern, 4am GMT).

    Primary elections are run by states. Caucuses are run by the political parties. That means the rules are different for Democrats and Republicans in a caucus.

    For Democrats you turn up, listen to people expound the virtues of the various candidates and then you literally go to a corner to support a specific candidate - this corner for Hillary, this one for Bernie etc. They quite literally vote with their feet, and a head count shows the result. There is nothing secret about how you vote.

    There is a wrinkle for Democrats. Hillary leads Bernie by 3%. O'Malley stands at 3%. When they count heads, a candidate has to get 15% to be 'viable'. If they don't, then those who support the non-viable candidate can either support another candidate or drop out. That adds a level of unpredictability.

    For Republicans it's a bit different. They turn up, listen to people talk about the various candidates, and then fill out a ballot form in a secret ballot. There is no viability rule in Republican caucuses.

    One other fact of note. Over the weekend it was announced that Bernie Sanders has had more campaign contributors than any other candidate in history. The average contribution to the Sanders campaign is $27.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2016
    Has this YouGov EU poll been reported on here?

    Remain 38%
    Leave 42%

    Sample size: 2,438
    Date: 29 Jan 2016

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/28/4-point-lead-leave-eu-referendum-and-support-danis/
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,850
    edited February 2016

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    The poll Plato posted suggests that Rubio is definitely worth a punt, both in Iowa and nationally (if he wins Iowa his odds will change dramatically). Not a huge punt as it's only one poll, but still.

    rcs's analysis of what we should do on refugees is really accurate IMO, and pretty much what I've been arguing for over a year. We should make peaceful countries in the region an irresistible cash offer to operate decent migrant camps with some prospect of actually making a living there while things are (we hope) sorted out. It would be a very sensible investment.

    Thoughtful piece by Tatchell on the balance between tolerating free speech and tolerating bigotry, which I think many here will agree with (still not sure what I think myself):

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/01/gay-cake-row-i-changed-my-mind-ashers-bakery-freedom-of-conscience-religion

    That's good to hear, as it was a very peculiar decision to bring a case.

    AIUI, and as was argued in NI at the time, it was not clear how it was even possible that anyone had been discriminated against at all, since discrimination is against people because of their sexual orientation and it was not clear that the shop knew that their customer was a person, or if so what their orientation was.

    Another of those, like the Google Tax Flap, where some campaigners wanted the law to say something different to that which it actually does.
    The judge found as a fact that the cake shop owners assumed the customer was gay from the request. It seems an entirely reasonable finding on the face of it.
    Thank-you for that. I find the Judge's ruling a little entrepreneurial.
    The full judgment is here:

    http://www.equalityni.org/ECNI/media/ECNI/Cases and Settlements/2015/Lee-v-Ashers_Judgement.pdf

    Paragraph 39 deals with this finding of fact and why the judge made it.

    Paragraph 12 is among the most Northern Irish paragraphs ever written.
    Thank-you for that. Interesting read, and it will be interesting to see how the Appeal goes.

    I'm not at all convinced by the Judge's reasoning, and in a city the size of Belfast it is not as if there is any shortage of bakeries so no material harm can have been suffered.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,026
    AndyJS said:

    Has this YouGov EU poll been reported on here?

    Remain 38%
    Leave 42%

    Sample size: 2,438
    Date: 29 Jan 2016

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/28/4-point-lead-leave-eu-referendum-and-support-danis/

    Interesting - if you buy into @Danny565 theory that Mr & Mrs Guardian are over-represented at Yougov then it is terrible news for Remain.

    But it is Yougov, bet on it at your peril.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2016
    Leave is ahead with online polls conducted so far this year.

    5 online polls since 1st Jan 2016, averages:

    Remain 40.8%
    Leave 41.4%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#2016
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380



    Paragraph 39 deals with this finding of fact and why the judge made it.

    Paragraph 12 is among the most Northern Irish paragraphs ever written.

    Lol, para 12 is amazing. One might imagine an ISIS court weighing up the use of references to Scripture in similar fashion.

    As someone co-responsible for some the relevant legislation, what we were trying to do was prevent a rash of statements/notices/policies that would have an intimidatory effect on gay people and people from ethnic minorities, in the way that "No blacks or Irish" signs in B&Bs used to poison the atmosphere. We were not seeking to force people to think differently. I don't think anyone had considered which side of the line the making of cakes with statements on them would fall.

  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,667
    edited February 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB, I wish we got regular French opinion polls. It's a source of enormous annoyance that they come out so infrequently.

    Yes, very frustrating.

    German polls otoh, are very interesting at the moment.

    The latest poll, not from INSA (who seem much better for AfD and worse for CDU than others), would produce quite an interesting result:

    CDU/CSU - 34
    SPD - 24
    Green - 9
    FDP - 5
    Left - 10
    AfD - 12

    Obviously the grand coalition would continue, but one does wonder whether Merkel's pronouncement today that migrants would be sent home once Syria is fixed is related to AfD's surge and the CDU being down over 7 points from the result.

    If she doesn't change the open door policy to migrants before the next election then I think AfD could go as high as 15 points and the CDU as low as 30 points (based on nothing but my own intuition before someone gets upset). A grand coalition with just 50-55% vote share would not be viable IMO, but then neither would anything else if the result was something like this:

    CDU/CSU - 30
    SPD - 21
    Green - 10
    FDP - 6
    Left - 12
    AfD -15

    So there would have to be a three party coalition with the CDU/CSU, SPD and either the FDP or more likely, the Greens, but the CDU going into power with such a left wing coalition will mean AfD would continue to eat into their vote share.

    One very poor decision could have very large consequences for the long term landscape of German politics. In 2 or 3 cycles AfD could reach their maximum potential of 18-20 points and become a permanent feature of the Bundestag leaving the CDU without an easy or natural partner they can form a coalition with other than on the left.
  • Options
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    The poll Plato posted suggests that Rubio is definitely worth a punt, both in Iowa and nationally (if he wins Iowa his odds will change dramatically). Not a huge punt as it's only one poll, but still.

    rcs's analysis of what we should do on refugees is really accurate IMO, and pretty much what I've been arguing for over a year. We should make peaceful countries in the region an irresistible cash offer to operate decent migrant camps with some prospect of actually making a living there while things are (we hope) sorted out. It would be a very sensible investment.

    Thoughtful piece by Tatchell on the balance between tolerating free speech and tolerating bigotry, which I think many here will agree with (still not sure what I think myself):

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/01/gay-cake-row-i-changed-my-mind-ashers-bakery-freedom-of-conscience-religion

    That's good to hear, as it was a very peculiar decision to bring a case.

    AIUI, and as was argued in NI at the time, it was not clear how it was even possible that anyone had been discriminated against at all, since discrimination is against people because of their sexual orientation and it was not clear that the shop knew that their customer was a person, or if so what their orientation was.

    Another of those, like the Google Tax Flap, where some campaigners wanted the law to say something different to that which it actually does.
    The judge found as a fact that the cake shop owners assumed the customer was gay from the request. It seems an entirely reasonable finding on the face of it.
    Thank-you for that. I find the Judge's ruling a little entrepreneurial.
    The full judgment is here:

    http://www.equalityni.org/ECNI/media/ECNI/Cases and Settlements/2015/Lee-v-Ashers_Judgement.pdf

    Paragraph 39 deals with this finding of fact and why the judge made it.

    Paragraph 12 is among the most Northern Irish paragraphs ever written.
    Thank-you for that. Interesting read, and it will be interesting to see how the Appeal goes.

    I'm not at all convinced by the Judge's reasoning, and in a city the size of Belfast it is not as if there is any shortage of bakeries so no material harm can have been suffered.
    I don't think the judge's reasoning holds water and expect a different rationale on appeal whichever side wins.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,026



    Paragraph 39 deals with this finding of fact and why the judge made it.

    Paragraph 12 is among the most Northern Irish paragraphs ever written.

    Lol, para 12 is amazing. One might imagine an ISIS court weighing up the use of references to Scripture in similar fashion.

    As someone co-responsible for some the relevant legislation, what we were trying to do was prevent a rash of statements/notices/policies that would have an intimidatory effect on gay people and people from ethnic minorities, in the way that "No blacks or Irish" signs in B&Bs used to poison the atmosphere. We were not seeking to force people to think differently. I don't think anyone had considered which side of the line the making of cakes with statements on them would fall.

    Alot of our law is like a game of chinese whispers.

    Europe says people have a right to family life.
    Parliament says people in Britain have a right to family life.
    Judges decide that a Sudanese boy in Calais has a right to full benefits because his 2nd uncle happened to make it across in a lorry is applying a "right to family life"
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    French opinion polls.

    I can hear Katie Boyle doing her best French Eurovision song contest performance -

    Anglo Saxons - nul points
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,118
    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Has this YouGov EU poll been reported on here?

    Remain 38%
    Leave 42%

    Sample size: 2,438
    Date: 29 Jan 2016

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/28/4-point-lead-leave-eu-referendum-and-support-danis/

    Interesting - if you buy into @Danny565 theory that Mr & Mrs Guardian are over-represented at Yougov then it is terrible news for Remain.

    But it is Yougov, bet on it at your peril.
    Although I’m an OAP I’m in favour of Remain. One thing that supports my position is that my children and my adult grandchildren are in favour of Remain.
    Should my generation poison the future of their children for some memory of past glories. Or does age bring wisdom.
    TBH I’m not sure that it does.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'I don't think anyone had considered which side of the line the making of cakes with statements on them would fall. '


    i.e

    'our MPs don't understand the consequences of their actions'

    That makes us all feel a lot better Nick
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,667
    Also, the swing from CDU to AfD is really clear.

    In July 2015 the CDU were on 43 points and AfD on 3 points. The most recent poll has the CDU on 34(-9) points and AfD on 12(+9)

    Everyone else is within the MoE.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,026

    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Has this YouGov EU poll been reported on here?

    Remain 38%
    Leave 42%

    Sample size: 2,438
    Date: 29 Jan 2016

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/28/4-point-lead-leave-eu-referendum-and-support-danis/

    Interesting - if you buy into @Danny565 theory that Mr & Mrs Guardian are over-represented at Yougov then it is terrible news for Remain.

    But it is Yougov, bet on it at your peril.
    Although I’m an OAP I’m in favour of Remain. One thing that supports my position is that my children and my adult grandchildren are in favour of Remain.
    Should my generation poison the future of their children for some memory of past glories. Or does age bring wisdom.
    TBH I’m not sure that it does.
    The only good thing I can work out about Europe is actually the much maligned €. Since we're not in that I'll be voting to leave currently.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    MaxPB said:

    Also, the swing from CDU to AfD is really clear.

    In July 2015 the CDU were on 43 points and AfD on 3 points. The most recent poll has the CDU on 34(-9) points and AfD on 12(+9)

    Everyone else is within the MoE.

    Interesting — 20% of CDU/CSU supporters have seemingly switched to AfD. Perhaps another 20% could do so over the next year or so.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2016

    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Has this YouGov EU poll been reported on here?

    Remain 38%
    Leave 42%

    Sample size: 2,438
    Date: 29 Jan 2016

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/28/4-point-lead-leave-eu-referendum-and-support-danis/

    Interesting - if you buy into @Danny565 theory that Mr & Mrs Guardian are over-represented at Yougov then it is terrible news for Remain.

    But it is Yougov, bet on it at your peril.
    Although I’m an OAP I’m in favour of Remain. One thing that supports my position is that my children and my adult grandchildren are in favour of Remain.
    Should my generation poison the future of their children for some memory of past glories. Or does age bring wisdom.
    TBH I’m not sure that it does.
    All the older people I know are in favour of Remain, although I'm aware that contradicts the polling evidence.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Has this YouGov EU poll been reported on here?

    Remain 38%
    Leave 42%

    Sample size: 2,438
    Date: 29 Jan 2016

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/28/4-point-lead-leave-eu-referendum-and-support-danis/

    Interesting - if you buy into @Danny565 theory that Mr & Mrs Guardian are over-represented at Yougov then it is terrible news for Remain.

    But it is Yougov, bet on it at your peril.
    ALEURP means Remain 56%
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:



    Paragraph 39 deals with this finding of fact and why the judge made it.

    Paragraph 12 is among the most Northern Irish paragraphs ever written.

    Lol, para 12 is amazing. One might imagine an ISIS court weighing up the use of references to Scripture in similar fashion.

    As someone co-responsible for some the relevant legislation, what we were trying to do was prevent a rash of statements/notices/policies that would have an intimidatory effect on gay people and people from ethnic minorities, in the way that "No blacks or Irish" signs in B&Bs used to poison the atmosphere. We were not seeking to force people to think differently. I don't think anyone had considered which side of the line the making of cakes with statements on them would fall.

    Alot of our law is like a game of chinese whispers.

    Europe says people have a right to family life.
    Parliament says people in Britain have a right to family life.
    Judges decide that a Sudanese boy in Calais has a right to full benefits because his 2nd uncle happened to make it across in a lorry is applying a "right to family life"
    Not judges, chairs of Immigration Tribunals with minimal legal training, if any.

    People with their level of experience shouldn't be developing binding precedent on human rights. This needs a SC ruling soonest.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'Not judges, chairs of Immigration Tribunals with minimal legal training, if any.'

    Quite right - these tribunals should be abolished.

    Any chance of the PM agreeing to that?
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    An interesting poll from the Des Moines Register/Bloomberg Politics.

    It asks supporters of the top GOP three - Trump, Cruz and Rubio - is their mind made up, or could they be persuaded to change their mind?

    Trump - 71% made up, 29% could be persuaded to change
    Cruz - 61%, 38%
    Rubio - 47%, 53%

    It will be an interesting evening.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,251



    Paragraph 39 deals with this finding of fact and why the judge made it.

    Paragraph 12 is among the most Northern Irish paragraphs ever written.

    Lol, para 12 is amazing. One might imagine an ISIS court weighing up the use of references to Scripture in similar fashion.

    As someone co-responsible for some the relevant legislation, what we were trying to do was prevent a rash of statements/notices/policies that would have an intimidatory effect on gay people and people from ethnic minorities, in the way that "No blacks or Irish" signs in B&Bs used to poison the atmosphere. We were not seeking to force people to think differently. I don't think anyone had considered which side of the line the making of cakes with statements on them would fall.

    The Law of Unintended Consequences, eh Nick!

    Thanks for the link to the article BTW. An interesting article by Tatchell.

    The difficulty with what you were trying to achieve - which I support - is that the debate around it too often morphed into calling those who disagreed "bigots" and an implication that there was only one right-thinking and acceptable opinion about the subject. If you don't accept that people can - legitimately - have a different point of view than you, if you try and put them beyond the pale of acceptable opinions, then it is not really a surprise that you end up in a situation where people are - or feel that they are - being forced into thinking only in one way and differently from what they actually think.

    The cake situation could have been resolved without the need for resort to law with a bit of common sense and without parties needing to prove a point. The law is a blunt instrument when it comes to regulating social mores, one reason why it should be used with a touch more discretion - by parties and lawmakers alike.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,214
    AndyJS said:

    Has this YouGov EU poll been reported on here?

    Remain 38%
    Leave 42%

    Sample size: 2,438
    Date: 29 Jan 2016

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/28/4-point-lead-leave-eu-referendum-and-support-danis/

    Was posted yesterday though a clear majority back Remain if Cameron gets a significant renegotiation
  • Options
    Charles said:

    Not judges, chairs of Immigration Tribunals with minimal legal training, if any.

    People with their level of experience shouldn't be developing binding precedent on human rights. This needs a SC ruling soonest.

    Do they create legal precedents? If so, that needs to be changed sharpish.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Merkel says immigrants must go home after the war.

    Is this the most monumental "closing of a stable door after the horse as bolted" ever recorded in history?

    .
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Regarding the 'right to family life' -

    If I'm an only child, parents dead, no girlfriend, partner or spouse -

    how does this affect my 'right'.
  • Options
    Tim_B said:

    Regarding the 'right to family life' -

    If I'm an only child, parents dead, no girlfriend, partner or spouse -

    how does this affect my 'right'.

    Not much, it just means you need to find a more imaginative lawyer.
  • Options
    Afternoon all,
    O/T Has anyone given any thought on who may win #CBB which finishes this weekend?
    I've had a fiver on Scotty T since early doors, but starting to think that Tiffany is looking very strong.
    Or Steph may be in with a shout if the public react badly to all the boos she gets on eviction nights.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,564
    edited February 2016
    Tim_B said:

    The Iowa Caucuses (should it be Cauci?)

    We're finally here. Votes will be cast and there will be a result. The caucuses begin at 7pm central. The networks are saying that results will start about 10pm Central (11pm Eastern, 4am GMT).

    Primary elections are run by states. Caucuses are run by the political parties. That means the rules are different for Democrats and Republicans in a caucus.

    For Democrats you turn up, listen to people expound the virtues of the various candidates and then you literally go to a corner to support a specific candidate - this corner for Hillary, this one for Bernie etc. They quite literally vote with their feet, and a head count shows the result. There is nothing secret about how you vote.

    There is a wrinkle for Democrats. Hillary leads Bernie by 3%. O'Malley stands at 3%. When they count heads, a candidate has to get 15% to be 'viable'. If they don't, then those who support the non-viable candidate can either support another candidate or drop out. That adds a level of unpredictability.

    For Republicans it's a bit different. They turn up, listen to people talk about the various candidates, and then fill out a ballot form in a secret ballot. There is no viability rule in Republican caucuses.

    One other fact of note. Over the weekend it was announced that Bernie Sanders has had more campaign contributors than any other candidate in history. The average contribution to the Sanders campaign is $27.

    Sanders may be about to hit brute reality though:

    “Hands down, Clinton has the best operation,” one Iowa Democrat said. “It doesn't matter who I speak to – whether it's in a big county or small, on the western side of the state or eastern – they all say the same thing: They see no evidence of Sanders organizing. They have a lot of people, but none of them are trained or prepared for what will happen on Monday.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/insiders-trump-and-clinton-will-carry-iowa-218492#ixzz3yvBjH1o7

    I've kept away from betting on Clinton. I think she is pretty likely to be POTUS, but a nagging doubt keeps me away. I am on Biden just in case.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Nigel Evans MP: likely to vote leave the EU.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771
    Moses_ said:

    Merkel says immigrants must go home after the war.

    Is this the most monumental "closing of a stable door after the horse as bolted" ever recorded in history?

    .

    No this is closing the stable door after 6 chariots. nine stallions, a herd of wildebeest and the golden horde has bolted.
  • Options

    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Has this YouGov EU poll been reported on here?

    Remain 38%
    Leave 42%

    Sample size: 2,438
    Date: 29 Jan 2016

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/28/4-point-lead-leave-eu-referendum-and-support-danis/

    Interesting - if you buy into @Danny565 theory that Mr & Mrs Guardian are over-represented at Yougov then it is terrible news for Remain.

    But it is Yougov, bet on it at your peril.
    Or does age bring wisdom.
    No, but a modicum of low cunning.....

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380
    MaxPB said:

    Also, the swing from CDU to AfD is really clear.

    In July 2015 the CDU were on 43 points and AfD on 3 points. The most recent poll has the CDU on 34(-9) points and AfD on 12(+9)

    Everyone else is within the MoE.

    Yes, I've been cautious on German polling as INSA seemed to differ from everyone else, but the trend seems pretty clear. I'd say that there is also a small trend to the non-governing parties doing better: they are all MOE but they're all up.
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    Regarding the 'right to family life' -

    If I'm an only child, parents dead, no girlfriend, partner or spouse -

    how does this affect my 'right'.

    Not much, it just means you need to find a more imaginative lawyer.
    So I just find some nubile teeny bopper with at least half a brain, and sue to force her to marry me under European law? What a great law! ;-)
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,870
    edited February 2016



    Paragraph 39 deals with this finding of fact and why the judge made it.

    Paragraph 12 is among the most Northern Irish paragraphs ever written.

    Lol, para 12 is amazing. One might imagine an ISIS court weighing up the use of references to Scripture in similar fashion.

    As someone co-responsible for some the relevant legislation, what we were trying to do was prevent a rash of statements/notices/policies that would have an intimidatory effect on gay people and people from ethnic minorities, in the way that "No blacks or Irish" signs in B&Bs used to poison the atmosphere. We were not seeking to force people to think differently. I don't think anyone had considered which side of the line the making of cakes with statements on them would fall.

    It would seem that the law of unintended consequences is immutable, so there will always be cases that come along that seem totally bizarre, whether the direction of travel is to liberalise, or to enforce equality in law, or to reduce the legislative burden.

    Fundamentally, all business people should be somewhat accustomed to having to structure themselves and their offerings in a certain way, driven primarily by the law or the tax system. I would suggest there are still plenty of ways that a Christian business can be set up to avoid the issue in this case, whether it is a wholesale ban on political sloganeering on cakes or a B&B describing their service as a room with 2 beds to be arranged at the owner's entire discretion (and everyone equally - married, single, brothers alike have to take lucky dip on the arrangement provided).

    Where thousands of accountants will advise on how to structure for the tax system, I am surprised never to have heard of a niche Christian business compliance advisers telling interested businesses how to set themselves up without moral conflict.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380
    Cyclefree said:

    <
    The Law of Unintended Consequences, eh Nick!

    Thanks for the link to the article BTW. An interesting article by Tatchell.

    The difficulty with what you were trying to achieve - which I support - is that the debate around it too often morphed into calling those who disagreed "bigots" and an implication that there was only one right-thinking and acceptable opinion about the subject. If you don't accept that people can - legitimately - have a different point of view than you, if you try and put them beyond the pale of acceptable opinions, then it is not really a surprise that you end up in a situation where people are - or feel that they are - being forced into thinking only in one way and differently from what they actually think.

    The cake situation could have been resolved without the need for resort to law with a bit of common sense and without parties needing to prove a point. The law is a blunt instrument when it comes to regulating social mores, one reason why it should be used with a touch more discretion - by parties and lawmakers alike.

    Agreed. I think with the benefit of hindsight that what's needed is essentially something akin to the not shouting fire in a crowded theatre - the scale of impact of the action should be relevant. I'm not worried if someone expresses opinions that I think bigoted when talking to friends or a small circle - as I've mentioned, I've met voters who said they liked Adolf Hitler and his views and policies towards minorities, but I've not reported them to the police for stirring up hatred, since they were just talking to me. Similarly, baking or not baking a cake seems to me unlikely to have sufficient impact to be worth attracting the interest of the courts. Putting up signs, making speeches, etc., should have a lower threshold, as should deliberate provocation - Mosley's march through the East End is the classic example.

    The problem about that is that it encourages people to feel that quiet, informal discirimination is OK, so long as they don't put up a notice about it. That doesn't seem quite right either. So I'm not too sure, actually.
  • Options



    No this is closing the stable door after 6 chariots. nine stallions, a herd of wildebeest and the golden horde has bolted.

    what were they all doing in the stable?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Not judges, chairs of Immigration Tribunals with minimal legal training, if any.

    People with their level of experience shouldn't be developing binding precedent on human rights. This needs a SC ruling soonest.

    Do they create legal precedents? If so, that needs to be changed sharpish.
    No precedent is really a precedent unless it has SC blessing. But tribunals tend to look to other tribunals for guidance.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Tim_B said:

    Regarding the 'right to family life' -

    If I'm an only child, parents dead, no girlfriend, partner or spouse -

    how does this affect my 'right'.

    Not much, it just means you need to find a more imaginative lawyer.
    Kitty kat?

    Alternative abscond during the appeal process and form a long-standing and stable relationship with a local girl.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,214
    edited February 2016
    Cromwell said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cromwell said:

    Final Iowa GOP poll from Emerson College:
    Trump 27% (-6 )
    Cruz 26 (+3)
    Rubio 22 (+8)

    Tight three-horse race that will be won on turnout.

    On those numbers, bet on Rubio?

    If that is an accurate poll then it should be clear to anyone able to read between the lines that Rubio is going to be the nominee
    A strong third is a contradiction in terms. If Rubio fails to win Iowa he has to win NH. If Trump wins both he is nominee. Tonight also partly depends on turnout, Overtime politics overnight had Trump leading Rubio by 20% amongst potential caucus goers but 3% amongst certain caucus goers however Rubio was still third in both cases
    You have zero political instincts and nous ; Trump may win the first 3 states and then still lose ....Rubio doesn't ''have '' to win Iowa and NH ...you are just a prisoner od statistics without the ability to read between the lines ...this is a very unusual election and you can expect an unusual outcome

    Fact 1 No candidate since 1976 on either side has lost Iowa and New Hampshire and become their party's nominee other than Bill Clinton in 1992 and he won South Carolina

    Fact 2 No candidate on either side since 1976 has won Iowa and New Hampshire and failed to become their party's nominee

    So if Rubio fails to win any of those three states he will not be nominee
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited February 2016

    Tim_B said:

    The Iowa Caucuses (should it be Cauci?)

    We're finally here. Votes will be cast and there will be a result. The caucuses begin at 7pm central. The networks are saying that results will start about 10pm Central (11pm Eastern, 4am GMT).

    Primary elections are run by states. Caucuses are run by the political parties. That means the rules are different for Democrats and Republicans in a caucus.

    For Democrats you turn up, listen to people expound the virtues of the various candidates and then you literally go to a corner to support a specific candidate - this corner for Hillary, this one for Bernie etc. They quite literally vote with their feet, and a head count shows the result. There is nothing secret about how you vote.

    There is a wrinkle for Democrats. Hillary leads Bernie by 3%. O'Malley stands at 3%. When they count heads, a candidate has to get 15% to be 'viable'. If they don't, then those who support the non-viable candidate can either support another candidate or drop out. That adds a level of unpredictability.

    For Republicans it's a bit different. They turn up, listen to people talk about the various candidates, and then fill out a ballot form in a secret ballot. There is no viability rule in Republican caucuses.

    One other fact of note. Over the weekend it was announced that Bernie Sanders has had more campaign contributors than any other candidate in history. The average contribution to the Sanders campaign is $27.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/insiders-trump-and-clinton-will-carry-iowa-218492#ixzz3yvBjH1o7

    I've kept away from betting on Clinton. I think she is pretty likely to be POTUS, but a nagging doubt keeps me away. I am on Biden just in case.
    Your nagging doubt may yet be right. Network national security correspondents and members of various House committees are saying on background that the FBI is ready to move on an email indictment, and almost ready on the public corruption track. They are double and triple checking - given who it is they would be indicting - because there is no room for any doubt whatsoever, particularly on the public corruption track which is harder to prove. On emails they have her cold.

    The FBI has to recommend the establishment of a grand jury, DOJ has to go with it. The question is would the WH nix it. If they did it would be a political firestorm.

    But it has to be said - this is all on background (the FBI is tighter than a drum about ongoing investigations) and might not happen. We simply don't know. But the fact that the FBI investigation is still expanding is not good news for Hillary. You don't expand FBI investigations because of a lack of evidence.

    On the Sunday shows Hillary says it's just the Republicans beating up on her. Her donors are worried.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,214
    LondonBob said:

    A few of the saner GOP candidates need to fall on their swords for the good of their party. Rubio looks to be the best of the non-mad, non-obnoxious offerings, so the likes of Bush and Christie need to endorse him, and do so soon.

    Meanwhile for the Dems, I'm still in the 'Draft Biden' camp.

    Only on here could a candidate that supports a no fly zone in Syria, cancelling the Iran nuclear deal and actually increasing immigration be described as sane or non-mad/non-obnoxious.

    I've noticed the GOP Establishment, no not the old Establishment of Northeastern WASPs like Nelson Rockefeller, but the professional and ideological class: the lobbyists, donors, consultants and party bureaucrats, and the elected officials they support, whose primary objective is to get Republicans into office, with little concern for ideology, are moving to Trump.

    Three Reasons.
    1) Electability: As I noted, above all, the GOP Establishment is invested in having a Republican president. While most of the Establishment believes the Hispanic vote nonsense, they do see that Trump is bringing in previously disaffected white working class voters. As Senator Orrin Hatch noted: “For us to win, we have to appeal the moderates and independents. We can’t just act like that only one point of view is the only way to go. That’s where Ted is going to have some trouble.” Trump, in contrast is doing well among moderate GOP voters and working class voters. Hatch said “I’ve come around a little bit on Trump.” He said. “I’m not so sure we’d lose if he’s our nominee because he’s appealing to people who a lot of the Republican candidates have not appealed to in the past.”

    2) Someone the GOP Establishment can work with. Bob Dole said: “He’s got the right personality and he’s kind of a deal-maker.” Craig Shirley, quoted in U.S. News & World Report, said: “Ultimately, the Washington establishment deep down—although they find Trump tacky or distasteful—they think that they ultimately can work with him.”

    3) Party Infrastructure. Lobbyist Richard Hohlt told the New York Times’ Martin, “Do they all love Trump? No. But there’s a feeling that he is not going to layer over the party or install his own person. Whereas Cruz will have his own people there.” They get to keep their jobs.

    Of course the shrill neocon voices in the media won't change but the GOP is beginning to rally round Trump.
    The Bushes can't stand Trump, others may come around
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    David Frum is saying Hillary won't be indicted, I find that interesting if weird wishful thinking. Check his Twitter
    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    The Iowa Caucuses (should it be Cauci?)

    We're finally here. Votes will be cast and there will be a result. The caucuses begin at 7pm central. The networks are saying that results will start about 10pm Central (11pm Eastern, 4am GMT).

    Primary elections are run by states. Caucuses are run by the political parties. That means the rules are different for Democrats and Republicans in a caucus.

    For Democrats you turn up, listen to people expound the virtues of the various candidates and then you literally go to a corner to support a specific candidate - this corner for Hillary, this one for Bernie etc. They quite literally vote with their feet, and a head count shows the result. There is nothing secret about how you vote.

    There is a wrinkle for Democrats. Hillary leads Bernie by 3%. O'Malley stands at 3%. When they count heads, a candidate has to get 15% to be 'viable'. If they don't, then those who support the non-viable candidate can either support another candidate or drop out. That adds a level of unpredictability.

    Snip

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/insiders-trump-and-clinton-will-carry-iowa-218492#ixzz3yvBjH1o7

    I've kept away from betting on Clinton. I think she is pretty likely to be POTUS, but a nagging doubt keeps me away. I am on Biden just in case.
    Your nagging doubt may yet be right. Network national security correspondents and members of various House committees are saying on background that the FBI is ready to move on an email indictment, and almost ready on the public corruption track. They are double and triple checking - given who it is they would be indicting - because there is no room for any doubt whatsoever, particularly on the public corruption track which is harder to prove. On emails they have her cold.

    The FBI has to recommend the establishment of a grand jury, DOJ has to go with it. The question is would the WH nix it. If they did it would be a political firestorm.

    But it has to be said - this is all on background (the FBI is tighter than a drum about ongoing investigations) and might not happen. We simply don't know. But the fact that the FBI investigation is still expanding is not good news for Hillary.

    On the Sunday shows Hillary says it's just the Republicans beating up on her. Her donors are worried.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669



    No this is closing the stable door after 6 chariots. nine stallions, a herd of wildebeest and the golden horde has bolted.

    what were they all doing in the stable?
    Eating the llamas.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,026
    Jeb Bush out to 13.5/14.5 on betfair.

    Finally his big drift may have begun.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Number Cruncher
    Numbers of the day: #Trump spent nearly $11m on himself – and $325,699.88 on those red hats https://t.co/fwx2Bks1u4 https://t.co/sQZczKBfiw
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    That high?

    Probability of possible outcomes #UKGE2020 Electoral Calculus

    CON MAJ 77%
    LAB MAJ less than 1%

    https://t.co/V9qLfFoc2o
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,870
    Moses_ said:

    Merkel says immigrants must go home after the war.

    Is this the most monumental "closing of a stable door after the horse as bolted" ever recorded in history?

    .

    Not quite. In the short-term they are claiming asylum so, notwithstanding the logistical challenge of sending 1 million+ accepted refugees back to a country when the time comes, 'sending back afterwards' is absolutely a statement of the legal position of someone who has been granted asylum.

    More interestingly, the fear being expressed in the UK recently has been that all the refugees in Germany will eventually get EU passports and that very many will come here. I've always had some scepticism how much and how soon that might affect UK immigration, even if many do get passports. But the implication in Merkel wanting to send them back must surely be that they will remain under asylum, not be granted EU citizenship, and will therefore have no entitlement of free movement to the UK.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Putting up signs, making speeches, etc., should have a lower threshold, as should deliberate provocation - Mosley's march through the East End is the classic example.''

    The KKK are able to do all of the above in the US and they are getting precisely nowhere. For me, true free speech is much safer than limited free speech because you know what people are really thinking, and perhaps more importantly, how many are thinking it.

  • Options
    Tim_B said:

    Your nagging doubt may yet be right. Network national security correspondents and members of various House committees are saying on background that the FBI is ready to move on an email indictment, and almost ready on the public corruption track. They are double and triple checking - given who it is they would be indicting - because there is no room for any doubt whatsoever, particularly on the public corruption track which is harder to prove. On emails they have her cold.

    The FBI has to recommend the establishment of a grand jury, DOJ has to go with it. The question is would the WH nix it. If they did it would be a political firestorm.

    But it has to be said - this is all on background (the FBI is tighter than a drum about ongoing investigations) and might not happen. We simply don't know. But the fact that the FBI investigation is still expanding is not good news for Hillary. You don't expand FBI investigations because of a lack of evidence.

    On the Sunday shows Hillary says it's just the Republicans beating up on her. Her donors are worried.

    What is the difference between this private mail server scandal and the George Bush equivalent of a few years ago? I've seen a lot of comment from ex-soldiers saying they'd have been buried for not handling classified information with due reverence, but not much beyond that. At what point does the FBI need to perform or get off the pot? Presumably they can't wait till the inauguration.
  • Options

    Mr. Flightpath, then Ashdown was a fool. Why would a PM with a landslide alter the voting system?

    The promise was made before the election, when Blair expected only a slim majority, if one at all.
    Correct. I'm glad there is someone around with an understanding of history.
    Labour and the LDs conspired with each other to smear the tories, and to give each other a free run in their best constituencies. The libdems basically gave Blair their seal of approval. Blair promised a commission on PR, led by Jenkins. It recommended a change to some sort of PR and Blair with a casual effrontery that was breathtaking threw it into a bin located in the long grass.
    Total humiliation for Ashdown - don't know how he kept his job for as long as he did after that.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    I don't - he has no more idea than the rest of us. A propos of nothing, and just to be mischievous, like Ted Cruz he is Canadian born, from my old home town of Toronto.

    David Frum is saying Hillary won't be indicted, I find that interesting if weird wishful thinking. Check his Twitter

    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    The Iowa Caucuses (should it be Cauci?)

    We're finally here. Votes will be cast and there will be a result. The caucuses begin at 7pm central. The networks are saying that results will start about 10pm Central (11pm Eastern, 4am GMT).

    Primary elections are run by states. Caucuses are run by the political parties. That means the rules are different for Democrats and Republicans in a caucus.

    For Democrats you turn up, listen to people expound the virtues of the various candidates and then you literally go to a corner to support a specific candidate - this corner for Hillary, this one for Bernie etc. They quite literally vote with their feet, and a head count shows the result. There is nothing secret about how you vote.

    There is a wrinkle for Democrats. Hillary leads Bernie by 3%. O'Malley stands at 3%. When they count heads, a candidate has to get 15% to be 'viable'. If they don't, then those who support the non-viable candidate can either support another candidate or drop out. That adds a level of unpredictability.

    Snip

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/insiders-trump-and-clinton-will-carry-iowa-218492#ixzz3yvBjH1o7

    I've kept away from betting on Clinton. I think she is pretty likely to be POTUS, but a nagging doubt keeps me away. I am on Biden just in case.
    Your nagging doubt may yet be right. Network national security correspondents and members of various House committees are saying on background that the FBI is ready to move on an email indictment, and almost ready on the public corruption track. They are double and triple checking - given who it is they would be indicting - because there is no room for any doubt whatsoever, particularly on the public corruption track which is harder to prove. On emails they have her cold.

    The FBI has to recommend the establishment of a grand jury, DOJ has to go with it. The question is would the WH nix it. If they did it would be a political firestorm.

    But it has to be said - this is all on background (the FBI is tighter than a drum about ongoing investigations) and might not happen. We simply don't know. But the fact that the FBI investigation is still expanding is not good news for Hillary.

    On the Sunday shows Hillary says it's just the Republicans beating up on her. Her donors are worried.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,958
    HYUFD said:

    Cromwell said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cromwell said:

    Final Iowa GOP poll from Emerson College:
    Trump 27% (-6 )
    Cruz 26 (+3)
    Rubio 22 (+8)

    Tight three-horse race that will be won on turnout.

    On those numbers, bet on Rubio?

    If that is an accurate poll then it should be clear to anyone able to read between the lines that Rubio is going to be the nominee
    A strong third is a contradiction in terms. If Rubio fails to win Iowa he has to win NH. If Trump wins both he is nominee. Tonight also partly depends on turnout, Overtime politics overnight had Trump leading Rubio by 20% amongst potential caucus goers but 3% amongst certain caucus goers however Rubio was still third in both cases
    You have zero political instincts and nous ; Trump may win the first 3 states and then still lose ....Rubio doesn't ''have '' to win Iowa and NH ...you are just a prisoner od statistics without the ability to read between the lines ...this is a very unusual election and you can expect an unusual outcome

    Fact 1 No candidate since 1976 on either side has lost Iowa and New Hampshire and become their party's nominee other than Bill Clinton in 1992 and he won South Carolina

    Fact 2 No candidate on either side since 1976 has won Iowa and New Hampshire and failed to become their party's nominee

    So if Rubio fails to win any of those three states he will not be nominee
    Trends have a nasty habit of being disrupted by future events....

    Remember, Andy Burnham was the best man for the Labour leadership job...
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited February 2016
    Can you enlarge on the 'George Bush equivalent' please?

    As to prosecution for handling classified info, check David Patraius.

    The FBI will not be rushed and will take whatever time they need to build a case. But yes, the calendar is a factor in this case.

    Tim_B said:

    Your nagging doubt may yet be right. Network national security correspondents and members of various House committees are saying on background that the FBI is ready to move on an email indictment, and almost ready on the public corruption track. They are double and triple checking - given who it is they would be indicting - because there is no room for any doubt whatsoever, particularly on the public corruption track which is harder to prove. On emails they have her cold.

    The FBI has to recommend the establishment of a grand jury, DOJ has to go with it. The question is would the WH nix it. If they did it would be a political firestorm.

    But it has to be said - this is all on background (the FBI is tighter than a drum about ongoing investigations) and might not happen. We simply don't know. But the fact that the FBI investigation is still expanding is not good news for Hillary. You don't expand FBI investigations because of a lack of evidence.

    On the Sunday shows Hillary says it's just the Republicans beating up on her. Her donors are worried.

    What is the difference between this private mail server scandal and the George Bush equivalent of a few years ago? I've seen a lot of comment from ex-soldiers saying they'd have been buried for not handling classified information with due reverence, but not much beyond that. At what point does the FBI need to perform or get off the pot? Presumably they can't wait till the inauguration.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,211
    HYUFD said:

    Cromwell said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cromwell said:

    Final Iowa GOP poll from Emerson College:
    Trump 27% (-6 )
    Cruz 26 (+3)
    Rubio 22 (+8)

    Tight three-horse race that will be won on turnout.

    On those numbers, bet on Rubio?

    If that is an accurate poll then it should be clear to anyone able to read between the lines that Rubio is going to be the nominee
    A strong third is a contradiction in terms. If Rubio fails to win Iowa he has to win NH. If Trump wins both he is nominee. Tonight also partly depends on turnout, Overtime politics overnight had Trump leading Rubio by 20% amongst potential caucus goers but 3% amongst certain caucus goers however Rubio was still third in both cases
    You have zero political instincts and nous ; Trump may win the first 3 states and then still lose ....Rubio doesn't ''have '' to win Iowa and NH ...you are just a prisoner od statistics without the ability to read between the lines ...this is a very unusual election and you can expect an unusual outcome

    Fact 1 No candidate since 1976 on either side has lost Iowa and New Hampshire and become their party's nominee other than Bill Clinton in 1992 and he won South Carolina

    Fact 2 No candidate on either side since 1976 has won Iowa and New Hampshire and failed to become their party's nominee

    So if Rubio fails to win any of those three states he will not be nominee
    So, that's -what- eight datapoints for the Republicans?

    1980, 1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012

    Not many, is it?
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    Tim_B said:



    No this is closing the stable door after 6 chariots. nine stallions, a herd of wildebeest and the golden horde has bolted.

    what were they all doing in the stable?
    Eating the llamas.
    schoolboy error. Llamas on open pasture every time
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Nate Silver
    Rubio has gained about 4 points in our polling average in the past week. So, momentum claims are somewhat justified. https://t.co/zGqum6tubw
  • Options
    Dimly remembered, it was a coda to a deleted email story.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

    (It is not just America -- we had our own small scale equivalent at Education under the coalition.)
    Tim_B said:

    Can you enlarge on the 'George Bush equivalent' please?

    As to prosecution for handling classified info, check David Patraius

    Tim_B said:

    Your nagging doubt may yet be right. Network national security correspondents and members of various House committees are saying on background that the FBI is ready to move on an email indictment, and almost ready on the public corruption track. They are double and triple checking - given who it is they would be indicting - because there is no room for any doubt whatsoever, particularly on the public corruption track which is harder to prove. On emails they have her cold.

    The FBI has to recommend the establishment of a grand jury, DOJ has to go with it. The question is would the WH nix it. If they did it would be a political firestorm.

    But it has to be said - this is all on background (the FBI is tighter than a drum about ongoing investigations) and might not happen. We simply don't know. But the fact that the FBI investigation is still expanding is not good news for Hillary. You don't expand FBI investigations because of a lack of evidence.

    On the Sunday shows Hillary says it's just the Republicans beating up on her. Her donors are worried.

    What is the difference between this private mail server scandal and the George Bush equivalent of a few years ago? I've seen a lot of comment from ex-soldiers saying they'd have been buried for not handling classified information with due reverence, but not much beyond that. At what point does the FBI need to perform or get off the pot? Presumably they can't wait till the inauguration.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,211
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cromwell said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cromwell said:

    Final Iowa GOP poll from Emerson College:
    Trump 27% (-6 )
    Cruz 26 (+3)
    Rubio 22 (+8)

    Tight three-horse race that will be won on turnout.

    On those numbers, bet on Rubio?

    If that is an accurate poll then it should be clear to anyone able to read between the lines that Rubio is going to be the nominee
    A strong third is a contradiction in terms. If Rubio fails to win Iowa he has to win NH. If Trump wins both he is nominee. Tonight also partly depends on turnout, Overtime politics overnight had Trump leading Rubio by 20% amongst potential caucus goers but 3% amongst certain caucus goers however Rubio was still third in both cases
    You have zero political instincts and nous ; Trump may win the first 3 states and then still lose ....Rubio doesn't ''have '' to win Iowa and NH ...you are just a prisoner od statistics without the ability to read between the lines ...this is a very unusual election and you can expect an unusual outcome

    Fact 1 No candidate since 1976 on either side has lost Iowa and New Hampshire and become their party's nominee other than Bill Clinton in 1992 and he won South Carolina

    Fact 2 No candidate on either side since 1976 has won Iowa and New Hampshire and failed to become their party's nominee

    So if Rubio fails to win any of those three states he will not be nominee
    So, that's -what- eight datapoints for the Republicans?

    1980, 1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012

    Not many, is it?
    Actually, seven datapoints as Bush was unchallenged in 2004.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    BBC Politics
    Some UKIP branches plan to rebel if candidates from outside Wales are imposed on them for the assembly election... https://t.co/fa9JlpAZAu
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:



    No this is closing the stable door after 6 chariots. nine stallions, a herd of wildebeest and the golden horde has bolted.

    what were they all doing in the stable?
    Eating the llamas.
    schoolboy error. Llamas on open pasture every time
    Or as Python said - Cuidado: Llamas!!!!!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,026
    I could well end up with alot of egg on my face for this, but I note the survey that has Rubio at 22% is comprised of 298 likely voters.

    Quinnipiac and Selzer look the better two to me.
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    HYUFD said:

    Fact 1 No candidate since 1976 on either side has lost Iowa and New Hampshire and become their party's nominee other than Bill Clinton in 1992 and he won South Carolina

    Fact 2 No candidate on either side since 1976 has won Iowa and New Hampshire and failed to become their party's nominee

    So if Rubio fails to win any of those three states he will not be nominee

    Wanna bet? I'll take 20/1 that Rubio loses in all three states and yet is the nominee.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited February 2016

    Tim_B said:

    Your nagging doubt may yet be right. Network national security correspondents and members of various House committees are saying on background that the FBI is ready to move on an email indictment, and almost ready on the public corruption track. They are double and triple checking - given who it is they would be indicting - because there is no room for any doubt whatsoever, particularly on the public corruption track which is harder to prove. On emails they have her cold.

    The FBI has to recommend the establishment of a grand jury, DOJ has to go with it. The question is would the WH nix it. If they did it would be a political firestorm.

    But it has to be said - this is all on background (the FBI is tighter than a drum about ongoing investigations) and might not happen. We simply don't know. But the fact that the FBI investigation is still expanding is not good news for Hillary. You don't expand FBI investigations because of a lack of evidence.

    On the Sunday shows Hillary says it's just the Republicans beating up on her. Her donors are worried.

    What is the difference between this private mail server scandal and the George Bush equivalent of a few years ago? I've seen a lot of comment from ex-soldiers saying they'd have been buried for not handling classified information with due reverence, but not much beyond that. At what point does the FBI need to perform or get off the pot? Presumably they can't wait till the inauguration.
    The FBI has two opposing pressures - to get this finished before the primary season is too far advanced, and not to be seen to be taking short cuts just to fit into the political calendar.

    Thanks for pointing out the Bush scandal. I don't know enough about that. Of course, two wrongs do not make a right, and if there is a case against those in the Bush Administration who may have broken laws, then that case should also be pursued.

    The difficulty of pursuing the toughest case against Hillary is proving that she knew the material to be classified. Being incompetent in the handling of classified material is deemed less serious than deliberately mishandling such material.

    Some of her aides will be in for it though, as they would have been the ones repackaging classified information into unmarked communications and non-papers (even if that was at Hillary's instruction - but there is not smoking gun for that yet).
  • Options

    BBC Politics
    Some UKIP branches plan to rebel if candidates from outside Wales are imposed on them for the assembly election... https://t.co/fa9JlpAZAu

    Tricky concept this devolution thingy.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Many if not most government officials who mostly used government email accounts have sent emails from their private email accounts while in office. That's just life.

    What makes Hillary Clinton so different is that she set up her own email server and did not use government email at all while in office. That is unprecedented and was done to avoid future FOIA requests. She got away with it until the Benghazi committee discovered it. It appears to be backfiring spectacularly.

    Dimly remembered, it was a coda to a deleted email story.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

    (It is not just America -- we had our own small scale equivalent at Education under the coalition.)

    Tim_B said:

    Can you enlarge on the 'George Bush equivalent' please?

    As to prosecution for handling classified info, check David Patraius

    Tim_B said:

    Your nagging doubt may yet be right. Network national security correspondents and members of various House committees are saying on background that the FBI is ready to move on an email indictment, and almost ready on the public corruption track. They are double and triple checking - given who it is they would be indicting - because there is no room for any doubt whatsoever, particularly on the public corruption track which is harder to prove. On emails they have her cold.

    The FBI has to recommend the establishment of a grand jury, DOJ has to go with it. The question is would the WH nix it. If they did it would be a political firestorm.

    But it has to be said - this is all on background (the FBI is tighter than a drum about ongoing investigations) and might not happen. We simply don't know. But the fact that the FBI investigation is still expanding is not good news for Hillary. You don't expand FBI investigations because of a lack of evidence.

    On the Sunday shows Hillary says it's just the Republicans beating up on her. Her donors are worried.

    What is the difference between this private mail server scandal and the George Bush equivalent of a few years ago? I've seen a lot of comment from ex-soldiers saying they'd have been buried for not handling classified information with due reverence, but not much beyond that. At what point does the FBI need to perform or get off the pot? Presumably they can't wait till the inauguration.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Pew Research
    Many Republicans say Trump would be good/great president despite not being religious https://t.co/SRzVo2Spcy https://t.co/acGtVduDF9
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2016

    Dimly remembered, it was a coda to a deleted email story.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

    (It is not just America -- we had our own small scale equivalent at Education under the coalition.)

    Neither of those is remotely comparable to the Clinton allegations, which relate to (amongst other emails) allegedly highly sensitive classified information, not just to documents subject to the Presidential Records Act of 1978, and the Hatch Act.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    BBC Politics
    Some UKIP branches plan to rebel if candidates from outside Wales are imposed on them for the assembly election... https://t.co/fa9JlpAZAu

    Not necessarily a bad thing for the party, it may raise their profile a bit.
  • Options
    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:



    No this is closing the stable door after 6 chariots. nine stallions, a herd of wildebeest and the golden horde has bolted.

    what were they all doing in the stable?
    Eating the llamas.
    schoolboy error. Llamas on open pasture every time
    Or as Python said - Cuidado: Llamas!!!!!
    Cuidado indeed. Buenas noches!
  • Options

    Mr. Flightpath, then Ashdown was a fool. Why would a PM with a landslide alter the voting system?

    The promise was made before the election, when Blair expected only a slim majority, if one at all.
    Correct. I'm glad there is someone around with an understanding of history.
    Labour and the LDs conspired with each other to smear the tories, and to give each other a free run in their best constituencies. The libdems basically gave Blair their seal of approval. Blair promised a commission on PR, led by Jenkins. It recommended a change to some sort of PR and Blair with a casual effrontery that was breathtaking threw it into a bin located in the long grass.
    Total humiliation for Ashdown - don't know how he kept his job for as long as he did after that.
    Don't forget Prescott's role. He told Tony that the party would not stand for PR and, if I remember rightly, said he would resign over the matter.
  • Options
    Can someone please explain to me Rubio's path to the nomination?

    Let's be a bit mean with Trump and assume the average ratings:

    Trump - 35%
    Cruz - 19%
    Rubio - 15%
    Kasich - 5%
    Huckabee - 3%
    Carson - 6%
    Bush - 7%
    Paul - 4%
    Others - 6%

    I will assume 55% Cruz support, 80% Kasich, 65% Huck, 70% Carson, 80% Bush, 75% Paul and 65% others *all* goes to Rubio (very generously) and the balance of support to Trump (because some will)

    In a two horse race, Trump still wins 51.9% to 48.1%.

    Yes, I know it's not that simple, but it does show just how much of a mountain Rubio has to overcome.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    It's Iowa Caucus day! Download the @BuzzFeedNews app for
  • Options

    That high?

    Probability of possible outcomes #UKGE2020 Electoral Calculus

    LAB MAJ less than 1%

    "So you're telling me there's a chance....? YEAAAAAAHHHHHH!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMRrNY0pxfM
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,118

    Mr. Flightpath, then Ashdown was a fool. Why would a PM with a landslide alter the voting system?

    The promise was made before the election, when Blair expected only a slim majority, if one at all.
    Correct. I'm glad there is someone around with an understanding of history.
    Labour and the LDs conspired with each other to smear the tories, and to give each other a free run in their best constituencies. The libdems basically gave Blair their seal of approval. Blair promised a commission on PR, led by Jenkins. It recommended a change to some sort of PR and Blair with a casual effrontery that was breathtaking threw it into a bin located in the long grass.
    Total humiliation for Ashdown - don't know how he kept his job for as long as he did after that.
    Don't forget Prescott's role. He told Tony that the party would not stand for PR and, if I remember rightly, said he would resign over the matter.
    That’s right. I also don’t recall Lab & LD’s pulling punches against each other.
  • Options

    Mr. Flightpath, then Ashdown was a fool. Why would a PM with a landslide alter the voting system?

    The promise was made before the election, when Blair expected only a slim majority, if one at all.
    Correct. I'm glad there is someone around with an understanding of history.
    Labour and the LDs conspired with each other to smear the tories, and to give each other a free run in their best constituencies. The libdems basically gave Blair their seal of approval. Blair promised a commission on PR, led by Jenkins. It recommended a change to some sort of PR and Blair with a casual effrontery that was breathtaking threw it into a bin located in the long grass.
    Total humiliation for Ashdown - don't know how he kept his job for as long as he did after that.
    Don't forget Prescott's role. He told Tony that the party would not stand for PR and, if I remember rightly, said he would resign over the matter.
    That’s right. I also don’t recall Lab & LD’s pulling punches against each other.
    Me neither. Although it is all so long ago. When there was an electable Labour party :-)
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Martin Boon
    Political interest and party membership weights (moderate strength) have negligible impact on headline VI, it seems. So that's torn it.
  • Options

    Mr. Flightpath, then Ashdown was a fool. Why would a PM with a landslide alter the voting system?

    The promise was made before the election, when Blair expected only a slim majority, if one at all.
    Correct. I'm glad there is someone around with an understanding of history.
    Labour and the LDs conspired with each other to smear the tories, and to give each other a free run in their best constituencies. The libdems basically gave Blair their seal of approval. Blair promised a commission on PR, led by Jenkins. It recommended a change to some sort of PR and Blair with a casual effrontery that was breathtaking threw it into a bin located in the long grass.
    Total humiliation for Ashdown - don't know how he kept his job for as long as he did after that.
    Don't forget Prescott's role. He told Tony that the party would not stand for PR and, if I remember rightly, said he would resign over the matter.
    That’s right. I also don’t recall Lab & LD’s pulling punches against each other.
    Me neither. Although it is all so long ago. When there was an electable Labour party :-)
    Yebbut, they were the Tory Labour Party, innit? :lol:
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    EU deal: looks like things may have moved on from temporary cessation of tax credits for EU migrants main and the sticking point is the non-eurozone country protection now.

    From the sounds of it France is the problem and want it to just be a toothless talking shop:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35456633
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    Dimly remembered, it was a coda to a deleted email story.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

    (It is not just America -- we had our own small scale equivalent at Education under the coalition.)

    Neither of those is remotely comparable to the Clinton allegations, which relate to (amongst other emails) allegedly highly sensitive classified information, not just to documents subject to the Presidential Records Act of 1978, and the Hatch Act.
    The common factor is bypassing official government mail servers.
  • Options

    Martin Boon
    Political interest and party membership weights (moderate strength) have negligible impact on headline VI, it seems. So that's torn it.

    "Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars Opinion Polls. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I actually caught it! You know, I just... do things."
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,187
    A piece based on the Tory Party being the Nasty Party - because they used the words "swarm" and "bunch".

    FFS. The Left are lost.
  • Options

    Dimly remembered, it was a coda to a deleted email story.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_email_controversy

    (It is not just America -- we had our own small scale equivalent at Education under the coalition.)

    Neither of those is remotely comparable to the Clinton allegations, which relate to (amongst other emails) allegedly highly sensitive classified information, not just to documents subject to the Presidential Records Act of 1978, and the Hatch Act.
    The common factor is bypassing official government mail servers.
    Of course, but there's a big difference between doing that for ordinary government business and doing it for top-secret intelligence info. If it were just the former, it would be awkward for Hillary, but probably not fatal. If the latter....
This discussion has been closed.