I do not see either side as being particularly clever or effective. What is clear to me is that leaving the EU and joining EFTA/EEA will make very little real difference to anything except we will not be in the council of ministers or have a commissioner or have any votes or have members in the EU parliament. And frankly I say who cares. As such both campaigns are being disingenuous. Of course if we vote Leave then anything that has been agreed by Cameron will be off the table and we start all over again from outside trying to negotiate a deal with the EU/EEA. So from that point of view being Out would be clearly a worse state than being In.
I am sanguine about being out of the EU and in the EEA. Its not that much different. Set against that we still have to face a continental wide politico-economic block on our doorstep which is not going to go away. To pretend it will not succeed and not exert some influence on us is naive. I do not regard any Out argument that also says out of the EEA and in with 'glorious isolation' as serious. So I lean to Remain. No one who has a modicum of common sense should have a visceral commitment to either side.
I understand the dilemma, with respect to the outcome either way being similar/almost the same. In the end, much like with the Scottish independence debate, it boils down to "where does sovereignty lie?"
I want sovereignty to lie with the Crown-in-Parliament, which is ultimately controlled by the electorate of the United Kingdom. Hence why I support Leave.
As the outcome (EU-light membership v. EEA membership/Swiss-style arrangement) is so similar, why not vote Leave and at least vest full sovereignty once again in our own parliament?
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
Maybe the referendum should have had those three options. Using AV...
Britain would be economically (X) if it left the European Union: Better off: 27% (-) Worse off: 32% (-1) No different: 24% (+2) (via YouGov)
I personally would be financially (X) if Britain left the EU: Better off: 16% (-) Worse off: 18% (+2) [No difference]: 46% (-) (via YouGov)
Leave should make the argument that EVEN IF we were marginally worse off (and it would be marginal) it is still worthwhile leaving and regaining our sovereignty.
What price is sovereignty?
We on earth would they concede that point? There are no organs of state we would lose by leaving, substantial fees we would cease to pay - in fundamentals we'd be better off. The rest is speculation and would depend on sound economic management and good government.
Britain would be economically (X) if it left the European Union: Better off: 27% (-) Worse off: 32% (-1) No different: 24% (+2) (via YouGov)
I personally would be financially (X) if Britain left the EU: Better off: 16% (-) Worse off: 18% (+2) [No difference]: 46% (-) (via YouGov)
Leave should make the argument that EVEN IF we were marginally worse off (and it would be marginal) it is still worthwhile leaving and regaining our sovereignty.
Britain would be economically (X) if it left the European Union: Better off: 27% (-) Worse off: 32% (-1) No different: 24% (+2) (via YouGov)
I personally would be financially (X) if Britain left the EU: Better off: 16% (-) Worse off: 18% (+2) [No difference]: 46% (-) (via YouGov)
Leave should make the argument that EVEN IF we were marginally worse off (and it would be marginal) it is still worthwhile leaving and regaining our sovereignty.
What price is sovereignty?
Yes, but that notion of "sovereignty" assumes that my interests are aligned with people who happen to have been born on the same island as me.
Although I'm often critical of The Economist, I was interested by their description of a meeting of British and continental politicians, where the latter indicated they would treat a Leave vote as a hostile act by the UK.
As if the continentals know how to deal with a hostile act.
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
Britain would be economically (X) if it left the European Union: Better off: 27% (-) Worse off: 32% (-1) No different: 24% (+2) (via YouGov)
I personally would be financially (X) if Britain left the EU: Better off: 16% (-) Worse off: 18% (+2) [No difference]: 46% (-) (via YouGov)
Leave should make the argument that EVEN IF we were marginally worse off (and it would be marginal) it is still worthwhile leaving and regaining our sovereignty.
Britain would be economically (X) if it left the European Union: Better off: 27% (-) Worse off: 32% (-1) No different: 24% (+2) (via YouGov)
I personally would be financially (X) if Britain left the EU: Better off: 16% (-) Worse off: 18% (+2) [No difference]: 46% (-) (via YouGov)
Leave should make the argument that EVEN IF we were marginally worse off (and it would be marginal) it is still worthwhile leaving and regaining our sovereignty.
What price is sovereignty?
Yes, but that notion of "sovereignty" assumes that my interests are aligned with people who happen to have been born on the same island as me.
Although I'm often critical of The Economist, I was interested by their description of a meeting of British and continental politicians, where the latter indicated they would treat a Leave vote as a hostile act by the UK.
I read that yesterday, but could not find an on-line link. Wasn't it actually about a wargame of the negotiation with politicians representing different sides?
And it was John Bruton from Ireland who called it an "unfriendly act" that would threaten th NI peace process.
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
It is surely a great vision - and one that can be achieved - for Britain to be the lead nation of a European non-EU bloc, consisting of ourselves, Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, the micro-states, and possibly Morocco, Turkey and other outlying nations.
We might even be able to rob from the EU countries such as Denmark, Poland, even Greece one day...
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
</blockquote Some of us do appreciate it is possible and also would very much welcome it. But to claim it would definitly happen and is a basis for Leave is unrealistic and would leave us open to justifiable claims from Remain that we are making assumptions that cannot be proven. Better to concentrate on membership if EFTA as it us currently constituted which is in itself a great prize and then hope that your even more attractive vision can be crafted subsequently.
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
You think these other countries are stupid?
Makes more sense than the nats plan of swapping a detached Westminster political elite for an even more detached Brussels political elite.
Please tell me he's not silly enough to do the tax return himself, then publish it to be torn apart by accountants?
His accountant has used the wrong form. I sincerely hope his accountant hasn't been paid out of the public purse. Other than that the return is entirely unremarkable.
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
Of course we would have a leading role in EFTA! We would have 80% of the population of EFTA. Indeed it may make some EFTA countries feel rather uncomfortable.
Us leaving the EU and joining EFTA would alter fundamentally the nature of the organisation, and also its relationship with the remaining EU.
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
You think these other countries are stupid?
Makes more sense than the nats plan of swapping a detached Westminster political elite for an even more detached Brussels political elite.
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
You think these other countries are stupid?
Makes more sense than the nats plan of swapping a detached Westminster political elite for an even more detached Brussels political elite.
I go out for Sunday Lunch and by the time I have come back, McMao tax return story has gone from strength to strength....He would be better off spending his weekends posing for photos with CAGE members.
Please tell me he's not silly enough to do the tax return himself, then publish it to be torn apart by accountants?
His accountant has used the wrong form. I sincerely hope his accountant hasn't been paid out of the public purse. Other than that the return is entirely unremarkable.
Please tell me he's not silly enough to do the tax return himself, then publish it to be torn apart by accountants?
His accountant has used the wrong form. I sincerely hope his accountant hasn't been paid out of the public purse. Other than that the return is entirely unremarkable.
What would happen to me if my accountant used the wrong form?
1st attempt went a bit wrong. Cameron will describe whatever he gets as sgnificant. We'll be into a Sir Humphreyesque significance of the word significant.
Please tell me he's not silly enough to do the tax return himself, then publish it to be torn apart by accountants?
His accountant has used the wrong form. I sincerely hope his accountant hasn't been paid out of the public purse. Other than that the return is entirely unremarkable.
What would happen to me if my accountant used the wrong form?
Do people use accountants for tax affairs as simple as McDonald's apparently is ?
Please tell me he's not silly enough to do the tax return himself, then publish it to be torn apart by accountants?
His accountant has used the wrong form. I sincerely hope his accountant hasn't been paid out of the public purse. Other than that the return is entirely unremarkable.
What would happen to me if my accountant used the wrong form?
Do people use accountants for tax affairs as simple as McDonald's apparently is ?
Well doesn't look good if the shadow chancellor did his own and f##ked it right up...
Please tell me he's not silly enough to do the tax return himself, then publish it to be torn apart by accountants?
His accountant has used the wrong form. I sincerely hope his accountant hasn't been paid out of the public purse. Other than that the return is entirely unremarkable.
What would happen to me if my accountant used the wrong form?
Do people use accountants for tax affairs as simple as McDonald's apparently is ?
Well doesn't look good if the shadow chancellor did his own and f##ked it right up...
Has McDonnell really managed to transform the story from "Google doesn't pay enough tax". where the public agree with him, to "I am not competent to fill in a single Tax return, let alone manage anyone else's"?
Well doesn't look good if the shadow chancellor did his own and f##ked it right up...
Has McDonnell really managed to transform the story from "Google doesn't pay enough tax". where the public agree with him, to "I am not competent to fill in a single Tax return, let alone manage anyone else's"?
Outstanding work. Again.
Quick time for some more quotes from Mao Little Red Book or a selfie with an Islamic Extremist.
Well doesn't look good if the shadow chancellor did his own and f##ked it right up...
Has McDonnell really managed to transform the story from "Google doesn't pay enough tax". where the public agree with him, to "I am not competent to fill in a single Tax return, let alone manage anyone else's"?
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
You think these other countries are stupid?
Makes more sense than the nats plan of swapping a detached Westminster political elite for an even more detached Brussels political elite.
Yes. I fear for Scotland in the event of an English EU exit. Such is the fanaticism and Anglophobia of the Scots' community leaders, that they'd sooner see Scotland reduced to a minor EU pseudo-state and Brussels outpost, rather than follow their destiny as England's ally and equal. It's masochism of the highest order. Why inflict a great nation to such shame?
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
Of course we would have a leading role in EFTA! We would have 80% of the population of EFTA. Indeed it may make some EFTA countries feel rather uncomfortable.
Us leaving the EU and joining EFTA would alter fundamentally the nature of the organisation, and also its relationship with the remaining EU.
The principal issue being the membership of the EEA and the rules required thereby to maintain access to the single market. The principal scare of the Outers is to link the EU with muslim immigration, not the movement of workers from the new entrant countries. It has lost any interest with economic justifications. The fact that we have an alternate link with muslim countries and immigration from the Indian sub continent has nothing to do with the EU is conveniently forgotten. There are issues with the EU just as there would be issues with our place in the world outside it - but Outers care little about them. Its all about muslim hate.
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
You think these other countries are stupid?
Makes more sense than the nats plan of swapping a detached Westminster political elite for an even more detached Brussels political elite.
LOL
LOL all you like - it's true.
LOL LOL LOL, what a bunch of Tory sheeple, next you will be telling me the earth is flat
Bit odd that McDonnell didn't make sure his ducks were in a row before going on the offensive with this story tbh.
This is the man who having already been labelled as a dangerous leftie thought waving around and quoting from a mass murder's little red book as a response to a budget was a good idea.
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
You think these other countries are stupid?
Makes more sense than the nats plan of swapping a detached Westminster political elite for an even more detached Brussels political elite.
LOL
LOL all you like - it's true.
LOL LOL LOL, what a bunch of Tory sheeple, next you will be telling me the earth is flat
Oh go back to your little world of the one party control of the glorified Scottish county council. Leave the deliberations of foreign policy to those of us who are not Little Scotlanders.
The principal issue being the membership of the EEA and the rules required thereby to maintain access to the single market. The principal scare of the Outers is to link the EU with muslim immigration, not the movement of workers from the new entrant countries. It has lost any interest with economic justifications. The fact that we have an alternate link with muslim countries and immigration from the Indian sub continent has nothing to do with the EU is conveniently forgotten. There are issues with the EU just as there would be issues with our place in the world outside it - but Outers care little about them. Its all about muslim hate.
Err, couldn't be further from the truth.
UKIP's argument (and this is something that I feel the Leave campaign as a whole could take up) is that we should have an immigration policy that treats all people of the world the same, not put Europeans above Indians, etc. At the moment we have an open door to all Europeans, no matter how useful or dangerous they are, whilst we restrict migration - including skilled migration - from outside Europe. That's of course discriminatory, but hey, that's fine apparently because that's how EU membership goes.
Outside the EU, it would be for our government and parliament to decide a) how many and b) who exactly we should let in. It may be decided to let loads of highly skilled Asians in. Much more likely than to seal off the borders. Why? Because in a post-EU UK, UKIP still won't have any actual control in parliament.
What is wrong with an Australian-style points system? If people discussed immigration sensibly then this is a sensible proposition.
Your English is improving, but it's that failure of syntax that's always the giveaway. Perhaps you can don a burqa and sneak into one of Dave's English classes for Muslim ladies?
The other big point about immigration whilst being part of the EU - and this does connect with the existing crisis - is that a country (ooh, let's say, Germany) can unilaterally decide to let in millions, give them passports, and then those millions have a right to live in the UK. So a member state can effectively open the doors of another member state to people from outside the EU as well. We are entirely at the mercy of the immigration/citizenship policies of other member states.
The other big point about immigration whilst being part of the EU - and this does connect with the existing crisis - is that a country (ooh, let's say, Germany) can unilaterally decide to let in millions, give them passports, and then those millions have a right to live in the UK. So another member state can effectively open the doors of another member state to people from outside the EU as well. We are entirely at the mercy of the immigration/citizenship policies of other member states.
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
You think these other countries are stupid?
Makes more sense than the nats plan of swapping a detached Westminster political elite for an even more detached Brussels political elite.
LOL
LOL all you like - it's true.
LOL LOL LOL, what a bunch of Tory sheeple, next you will be telling me the earth is flat
Like the Scottish Tory Sheeple who voted to remain part of the United Kingdom?
Oh go back to your little world of the one party control of the glorified Scottish county council. Leave the deliberations of foreign policy to those of us who are not Little Scotlanders.
Says the cosmopolitan intending to scuttle off to more sympatico parts of the Anglosphere because of the furriners swamping his neighborhood.
Oh go back to your little world of the one party control of the glorified Scottish county council. Leave the deliberations of foreign policy to those of us who are not Little Scotlanders.
Says the cosmopolitan intending to scuttle off to more sympatico parts of the Anglosphere because of the furriners swamping his neighborhood.
Yes, yes, because if I were Scottish all I'd have to do is join the SNP and campaign for an international border to be slapped across Great Britain, so that my little country can be just that extra bit more Scottish.
Why is it so wrong for English people not to want to live in an increasingly Islamic area? I would understand perfectly if the reverse was true in an Islamic country, but it seems we have to deny thinking it or be ashamed to admit that we do
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
Oh go back to your little world of the one party control of the glorified Scottish county council. Leave the deliberations of foreign policy to those of us who are not Little Scotlanders.
Says the cosmopolitan intending to scuttle off to more sympatico parts of the Anglosphere because of the furriners swamping his neighborhood.
Why is it so wrong for English people not to want to live in an increasingly Islamic area? I would understand perfectly if the reverse was true in an Islamic country, but it seems we have to deny thinking it or be ashamed to admit that we do
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
It's a question which, if asked in a public debate, would be shouted down and left unanswered. Even though it's a perfectly legitimate question/point to make.
Why is it so wrong for English people not to want to live in an increasingly Islamic area? I would understand perfectly if the reverse was true in an Islamic country, but it seems we have to deny thinking it or be ashamed to admit that we do
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
You think these other countries are stupid?
Makes more sense than the nats plan of swapping a detached Westminster political elite for an even more detached Brussels political elite.
LOL
LOL all you like - it's true.
LOL LOL LOL, what a bunch of Tory sheeple, next you will be telling me the earth is flat
It's a fair point - if you don't want to be run by London, why are you so keen (to the point of the SNP wishing to deny the Scottish people a vote on the subject IIRC) to be run by Brussels.
Why is it so wrong for English people not to want to live in an increasingly Islamic area? I would understand perfectly if the reverse was true in an Islamic country, but it seems we have to deny thinking it or be ashamed to admit that we do
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
Why is it so wrong for English people not to want to live in an increasingly Islamic area? I would understand perfectly if the reverse was true in an Islamic country, but it seems we have to deny thinking it or be ashamed to admit that we do
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
Why is it so wrong for English people not to want to live in an increasingly Islamic area? I would understand perfectly if the reverse was true in an Islamic country, but it seems we have to deny thinking it or be ashamed to admit that we do
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
You think these other countries are stupid?
Makes more sense than the nats plan of swapping a detached Westminster political elite for an even more detached Brussels political elite.
LOL
LOL all you like - it's true.
LOL LOL LOL, what a bunch of Tory sheeple, next you will be telling me the earth is flat
It's a fair point - if you don't want to be run by London, why are you so keen (to the point of the SNP wishing to deny the Scottish people a vote on the subject IIRC) to be run by Brussels.
Malcolm and the SNP bosses think Scotland is too wee, too poor, and too stupid to be independent of Brussels.
Why is it so wrong for English people not to want to live in an increasingly Islamic area? I would understand perfectly if the reverse was true in an Islamic country, but it seems we have to deny thinking it or be ashamed to admit that we do
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
Why is it so wrong for English people not to want to live in an increasingly Islamic area? I would understand perfectly if the reverse was true in an Islamic country, but it seems we have to deny thinking it or be ashamed to admit that we do
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
What boroughs have close to Muslim majority?
Tower Hamlets and Newham
Neither is more than a third I think.
Yeah, a few years ago - they're now nearing 50%.
I know a lot of people either don't realise or don't want to realise the dramatic changes occurring, but, they are happening...
Why is it so wrong for English people not to want to live in an increasingly Islamic area? I would understand perfectly if the reverse was true in an Islamic country, but it seems we have to deny thinking it or be ashamed to admit that we do
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
What boroughs have close to Muslim majority?
Tower Hamlets and Newham
Neither is more than a third I think.
"Tower Hamlets in East London had the highest percentage of Muslims with 45.6 per cent and neighbouring Newham wasn’t far behind on 40.8 per cent"
Why is it so wrong for English people not to want to live in an increasingly Islamic area? I would understand perfectly if the reverse was true in an Islamic country, but it seems we have to deny thinking it or be ashamed to admit that we do
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
Oh go back to your little world of the one party control of the glorified Scottish county council. Leave the deliberations of foreign policy to those of us who are not Little Scotlanders.
Says the cosmopolitan intending to scuttle off to more sympatico parts of the Anglosphere because of the furriners swamping his neighborhood.
Yes, yes, because if I were Scottish all I'd have to do is join the SNP and campaign for an international border to be slapped across Great Britain, so that my little country can be just that extra bit more Scottish.
Uhuh. Well your not, so instead of campaigning for your version of your 'little country', you indulge in that fine, traditional activity of impotent whining about foreigners and swarming Muslamics. Each to their cultural own I suppose.
Oh go back to your little world of the one party control of the glorified Scottish county council. Leave the deliberations of foreign policy to those of us who are not Little Scotlanders.
Says the cosmopolitan intending to scuttle off to more sympatico parts of the Anglosphere because of the furriners swamping his neighborhood.
Yes, yes, because if I were Scottish all I'd have to do is join the SNP and campaign for an international border to be slapped across Great Britain, so that my little country can be just that extra bit more Scottish.
you indulge in that fine, traditional activity of impotent whining about foreigners
Flightpath's dilemma - which is shared by a lot of people, and by most of business - is that their order of preference is:
1. EFTA/EEA 2. EU 3. Complete Independence
But because of the nature of the referendum question, they fear (understandably) that they'll vote for Leave hoping for 1, and end up with 3. They will therefore vote for Remain.
The issue that the Leave camp has is that, to motivate those principally concerned by immigration, that they need to leave 3 on the table. That's how they motivate the base, and it was 3 that UKIP has campaigned for all along.
An EFTA with Britain the leading member would be far removed from the current EFTA and many on the LEAVE side don't, won't or can't appreciate that. Britain could lead and transform EFTA into a free market counter weight to the EU - single market, free trade yes but no social or political integration.
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
The UK could also take a leading role in EFTA as our interests would be more closely aligned with those of other members.
You think these other countries are stupid?
Makes more sense than the nats plan of swapping a detached Westminster political elite for an even more detached Brussels political elite.
LOL
LOL all you like - it's true.
LOL LOL LOL, what a bunch of Tory sheeple, next you will be telling me the earth is flat
It's a fair point - if you don't want to be run by London, why are you so keen (to the point of the SNP wishing to deny the Scottish people a vote on the subject IIRC) to be run by Brussels.
I suppose it all harks back to the days when the plan was to ape the Irish model. But then came the great financial crash and that model was blown asunder. The nationalists haven't had the wit or imagination to think up an alternative, so are stuck with crude EU-philia as a legacy policy. It's completely unsatisfactory, especially now that the entire EU project as we know it looks doomed. Scottish nationalism as a template for governance now looks jaded and adrift. I can't see it lasting.
Oh go back to your little world of the one party control of the glorified Scottish county council. Leave the deliberations of foreign policy to those of us who are not Little Scotlanders.
Says the cosmopolitan intending to scuttle off to more sympatico parts of the Anglosphere because of the furriners swamping his neighborhood.
Scotland is part of the Anglosphere last time I checked.
Why is it so wrong for English people not to want to live in an increasingly Islamic area? I would understand perfectly if the reverse was true in an Islamic country, but it seems we have to deny thinking it or be ashamed to admit that we do
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
I live in a majority islamic area and the truth that should not be spoken of people wanting to live with people of they own culture has already happened,it's called white flight.
It appears the penny is finally dropping for Tory MPs:
GEORGE Osborne’s hopes of becoming PM have been severely dented by the Google tax shambles, Tories claim – as a senior minister branded him a “social cripple like Gordon Brown”.
Top Conservatives are increasingly worried the Chancellor does not have what it takes to succeed David Cameron, with another minister saying voters see him as “weird” like Ed Miliband.
...
“It’s like Ed Miliband and the ‘weird’ thing - people look at him and they don’t like him, they’re not even sure why."
Oh go back to your little world of the one party control of the glorified Scottish county council. Leave the deliberations of foreign policy to those of us who are not Little Scotlanders.
Says the cosmopolitan intending to scuttle off to more sympatico parts of the Anglosphere because of the furriners swamping his neighborhood.
Yes, yes, because if I were Scottish all I'd have to do is join the SNP and campaign for an international border to be slapped across Great Britain, so that my little country can be just that extra bit more Scottish.
you indulge in that fine, traditional activity of impotent whining about foreigners
Who d'ya think he learned that from?
Self taught I'd guess. A bit rough round the edges but already showing authentic talent.
Oh go back to your little world of the one party control of the glorified Scottish county council. Leave the deliberations of foreign policy to those of us who are not Little Scotlanders.
Says the cosmopolitan intending to scuttle off to more sympatico parts of the Anglosphere because of the furriners swamping his neighborhood.
Scotland is part of the Anglosphere last time I checked.
Why is it so wrong for English people not to want to live in an increasingly Islamic area? I would understand perfectly if the reverse was true in an Islamic country, but it seems we have to deny thinking it or be ashamed to admit that we do
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
English may not be my mother('s) tongue, but it is the best language in the world
It appears the penny is finally dropping for Tory MPs:
GEORGE Osborne’s hopes of becoming PM have been severely dented by the Google tax shambles, Tories claim – as a senior minister branded him a “social cripple like Gordon Brown”.
Top Conservatives are increasingly worried the Chancellor does not have what it takes to succeed David Cameron, with another minister saying voters see him as “weird” like Ed Miliband.
...
“It’s like Ed Miliband and the ‘weird’ thing - people look at him and they don’t like him, they’re not even sure why."
It appears the penny is finally dropping for Tory MPs:
GEORGE Osborne’s hopes of becoming PM have been severely dented by the Google tax shambles, Tories claim – as a senior minister branded him a “social cripple like Gordon Brown”.
Top Conservatives are increasingly worried the Chancellor does not have what it takes to succeed David Cameron, with another minister saying voters see him as “weird” like Ed Miliband.
...
“It’s like Ed Miliband and the ‘weird’ thing - people look at him and they don’t like him, they’re not even sure why."
Oh go back to your little world of the one party control of the glorified Scottish county council. Leave the deliberations of foreign policy to those of us who are not Little Scotlanders.
Says the cosmopolitan intending to scuttle off to more sympatico parts of the Anglosphere because of the furriners swamping his neighborhood.
Yes, yes, because if I were Scottish all I'd have to do is join the SNP and campaign for an international border to be slapped across Great Britain, so that my little country can be just that extra bit more Scottish.
Uhuh. Well your not, so instead of campaigning for your version of your 'little country', you indulge in that fine, traditional activity of impotent whining about foreigners and swarming Muslamics. Each to their cultural own I suppose.
Whinging about foreigners? Bit rich coming from a Scots Nat!
It appears the penny is finally dropping for Tory MPs:
GEORGE Osborne’s hopes of becoming PM have been severely dented by the Google tax shambles, Tories claim – as a senior minister branded him a “social cripple like Gordon Brown”.
Top Conservatives are increasingly worried the Chancellor does not have what it takes to succeed David Cameron, with another minister saying voters see him as “weird” like Ed Miliband.
...
“It’s like Ed Miliband and the ‘weird’ thing - people look at him and they don’t like him, they’re not even sure why."
Nameless MP (senior minister we can guess the suspects) in smear campaign.. absolutely not worth the paper its printed on. The whole "Google Tax" story only became such because they announced last week that they had agreed to pay the UK govt £130m extra in tax. I'm sure George is happy that whatever negative publicity comes his way is more than offset by the extra £130m in the coffers.
Oh go back to your little world of the one party control of the glorified Scottish county council. Leave the deliberations of foreign policy to those of us who are not Little Scotlanders.
Says the cosmopolitan intending to scuttle off to more sympatico parts of the Anglosphere because of the furriners swamping his neighborhood.
Yes, yes, because if I were Scottish all I'd have to do is join the SNP and campaign for an international border to be slapped across Great Britain, so that my little country can be just that extra bit more Scottish.
you indulge in that fine, traditional activity of impotent whining about foreigners
Who d'ya think he learned that from?
Self taught I'd guess. A bit rough round the edges but already showing authentic talent.
It appears the penny is finally dropping for Tory MPs:
GEORGE Osborne’s hopes of becoming PM have been severely dented by the Google tax shambles, Tories claim – as a senior minister branded him a “social cripple like Gordon Brown”.
Top Conservatives are increasingly worried the Chancellor does not have what it takes to succeed David Cameron, with another minister saying voters see him as “weird” like Ed Miliband.
...
“It’s like Ed Miliband and the ‘weird’ thing - people look at him and they don’t like him, they’re not even sure why."
Christopher Snowden Tragic. It's time The Guardian started paying a living wage. https://t.co/SK0FK17vBy
Wow. I thought that the Big Issue was supposed to be a way that the homeless could drag themselves up, rather than a way for virtue signalling Guardian columnists to drag themselves down whilst depriving the former group of income?
This is beyond embarrassing now. They can't keep running away from these 'big' decisions. Once again, it just plays into the hands of those who say Labour are a threat to national security.
If they are not trusted on the economy and defence as well, then I can't see any way back for a very long time.
Christopher Snowden Tragic. It's time The Guardian started paying a living wage. https://t.co/SK0FK17vBy
Wow. I thought that the Big Issue was supposed to be a way that the homeless could drag themselves up, rather than a way for virtue signalling Guardian columnists to drag themselves down whilst depriving the former group of income?
Osborne collected 130 million more than Labour did in 13 years...he will do for me...pays for a lot of nurses...
The £130m relates to tax years 2005-2011. So almost entirely under the previous Labour govt. Yet Labour honestly think that this is something they can hang on the present govt?
This is beyond embarrassing now. They can't keep running away from these 'big' decisions. Once again, it just plays into the hands of those who say Labour are a threat to national security.
If they are not trusted on the economy and defence as well, then I can't see any way back for a very long time.
The other big point about immigration whilst being part of the EU - and this does connect with the existing crisis - is that a country (ooh, let's say, Germany) can unilaterally decide to let in millions, give them passports, and then those millions have a right to live in the UK. So a member state can effectively open the doors of another member state to people from outside the EU as well. We are entirely at the mercy of the immigration/citizenship policies of other member states.
We are not part of Schengen and even assuming they are granted German citizenship it will take 8 years. As refugees they have no rights to go anywhere. It seems unlikely to me we will join Schengen and it seems unlikely to me we will join the Euro. Germany currently has 1.55 million guest workers from Turkey. 2.71 million residents with at least 1 parent from Turkey. Why have you suddenly taken up this scare story?
Christopher Snowden Tragic. It's time The Guardian started paying a living wage. https://t.co/SK0FK17vBy
Wow. I thought that the Big Issue was supposed to be a way that the homeless could drag themselves up, rather than a way for virtue signalling Guardian columnists to drag themselves down whilst depriving the former group of income?
A good journo will be looking to see how many copies he sells, because he should be declaring it as income subject to 40% tax, with any subsequent donation to charity requiring a gift aid form and a note on his tax return.
He can't just sell them for the day like shaking a tin and hand it to a charity, he has to do the paperwork as if he did a day's "work".
Osborne collected 130 million more than Labour did in 13 years...he will do for me...pays for a lot of nurses...
The £130m relates to tax years 2005-2011. So almost entirely under the previous Labour govt. Yet Labour honestly think that this is something they can hang on the present govt?
I think their argument is it was a sweetener deal however, irrespective of that the last Labour chancellors collected a big fat zero. So, All Osborne has to do is keep standing up every time it's raised and ask
"Will the right honourable gentleman please outline how much tax the last Labour Chancellor collected from this company between 2005 to 2010 compared to this present Tory chancellor collection of owed back taxes from this company over the same period? "
The other big point about immigration whilst being part of the EU - and this does connect with the existing crisis - is that a country (ooh, let's say, Germany) can unilaterally decide to let in millions, give them passports, and then those millions have a right to live in the UK. So a member state can effectively open the doors of another member state to people from outside the EU as well. We are entirely at the mercy of the immigration/citizenship policies of other member states.
We are not part of Schengen and even assuming they are granted German citizenship it will take 8 years. As refugees they have no rights to go anywhere. It seems unlikely to me we will join Schengen and it seems unlikely to me we will join the Euro. Germany currently has 1.55 million guest workers from Turkey. 2.71 million residents with at least 1 parent from Turkey. Why have you suddenly taken up this scare story?
Schengen has got nowt to do with it.
Once they become German citizens they will enjoy the four freedoms.
This migrant situation is unprecedented in EU history and could well presage the undoing of the EU.
Comments
Ben
Diane Abbott rakes in over £200k on top of her £74k salary.
https://t.co/xFXLEbncdd https://t.co/jsk8yuWMmT
Muslims in the UK top 3million for first time and 50 per cent are foreign-born https://t.co/IybdrrF9cP https://t.co/XWV0Udgkzm
'Chairman of UKIP in Scotland stands down after indecent phone call accusation'
http://tinyurl.com/jqab4zt
The new EFTA could be very attractive to some EU countries not wishing to go down the federalist route but even if Britain sits with a few other countries it would be in a strong position to negotiate more favourable terms with the EU and even NAFTA.
And it was John Bruton from Ireland who called it an "unfriendly act" that would threaten th NI peace process.
Edit: it's here:
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21689235-mock-up-suggests-it-may-be-hard-david-cameron-do-deal-brussels-renegotiating
We might even be able to rob from the EU countries such as Denmark, Poland, even Greece one day...
EU referendum poll [w/ scenario that PM secured 'small change']:
Remain: 37% (-)
Leave: 40% (+2)
(via YouGov)
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/mg7825gzxs/InternalResults_160128_EURef_Website.pdf
Us leaving the EU and joining EFTA would alter fundamentally the nature of the organisation, and also its relationship with the remaining EU.
I do hope its you know who...
Cameron will describe whatever he gets as sgnificant.
We'll be into a Sir Humphreyesque significance of the word significant.
Wonder if we'll get a rerun of this story:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5379843/MPs-expenses-Alistair-Darlings-claim-for-help-with-his-tax-return.html
Outstanding work. Again.
The principal scare of the Outers is to link the EU with muslim immigration, not the movement of workers from the new entrant countries. It has lost any interest with economic justifications. The fact that we have an alternate link with muslim countries and immigration from the Indian sub continent has nothing to do with the EU is conveniently forgotten.
There are issues with the EU just as there would be issues with our place in the world outside it - but Outers care little about them. Its all about muslim hate.
UKIP's argument (and this is something that I feel the Leave campaign as a whole could take up) is that we should have an immigration policy that treats all people of the world the same, not put Europeans above Indians, etc. At the moment we have an open door to all Europeans, no matter how useful or dangerous they are, whilst we restrict migration - including skilled migration - from outside Europe. That's of course discriminatory, but hey, that's fine apparently because that's how EU membership goes.
Outside the EU, it would be for our government and parliament to decide a) how many and b) who exactly we should let in. It may be decided to let loads of highly skilled Asians in. Much more likely than to seal off the borders. Why? Because in a post-EU UK, UKIP still won't have any actual control in parliament.
What is wrong with an Australian-style points system? If people discussed immigration sensibly then this is a sensible proposition.
@JamieRoss7 Nationalist questions the factual accuracy of a book in which everyone has magical powers. http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/more-on-that-totally-coincidental-link.html …
If Hogwarts is in Scotland then why aren't there regular anti-bias protests outside the offices of the Daily Prophet?
If Hogwarts is in Scotland then why isn't anyone arrested for sectarian chanting at quidditch?
twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/693813992507179008
I would never consider living in an Islamic country, but the third and fourth boroughs from mine in East London are now approaching a muslim majority... Fewer people speak English in the street than ever, Burqas and Mosques everywhere.. Why is it wrong to not want that here?
http://urbs.london/religous-faith-in-london-muslims/2066
I know a lot of people either don't realise or don't want to realise the dramatic changes occurring, but, they are happening...
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6898434/Muslims-in-UK-top-3m-for-first-time-and-50-are-foreign-born.html
Uhuh. Well your not, so instead of campaigning for your version of your 'little country', you indulge in that fine, traditional activity of impotent whining about foreigners and swarming Muslamics. Each to their cultural own I suppose.
Nameless MP (senior minister we can guess the suspects) in smear campaign.. absolutely not worth the paper its printed on.
Wonder which "senior minister" it is, they're astonishingly rude whoever it is.
Politics Home
Recap: Labour ‘could boycott Commons Trident vote to stave off internal rebellion’ https://t.co/6IcMNKLojX https://t.co/YWvJTfpUyL
The whole "Google Tax" story only became such because they announced last week that they had agreed to pay the UK govt £130m extra in tax. I'm sure George is happy that whatever negative publicity comes his way is more than offset by the extra £130m in the coffers.
Christopher Snowden
Tragic. It's time The Guardian started paying a living wage. https://t.co/SK0FK17vBy
David Cameron?
National security "can't be bothered"....
"The boycott would be attributed to the Government not providing full details of the renewal programme"
So they won't bother with the debate then either where they can always ask questions and hold government to account?
The Labour parties collective incompetency is quite stunning as thy stagger from one feck up directly into the next without even drawing breath.
If they are not trusted on the economy and defence as well, then I can't see any way back for a very long time.
Germany currently has 1.55 million guest workers from Turkey. 2.71 million residents with at least 1 parent from Turkey.
Why have you suddenly taken up this scare story?
He can't just sell them for the day like shaking a tin and hand it to a charity, he has to do the paperwork as if he did a day's "work".
"Will the right honourable gentleman please outline how much tax the last Labour Chancellor collected from this company between 2005 to 2010 compared to this present Tory chancellor collection of owed back taxes from this company over the same period? "
Once they become German citizens they will enjoy the four freedoms.
This migrant situation is unprecedented in EU history and could well presage the undoing of the EU.