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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn drops to his lowest level yet amongst those who vote

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  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,211

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't think state banquets are like that. I think they're 80 guys getting mass catering that everyone pretends isn't shit.

    Which is why you almost always have salmon or chicken. And why you genuinely do need alcohol to survive them.

    State banquets can perfectly well cope with providing a vegetarian option alongside the main meat dish.

    Though experience of seeking veggie options in France would suggest that lardons are vegetables..

    Either way, catering at big events can easily cope with providing a halal or vegan option if so required.

    However I am strongly of the opinion that halal food should never be imposed on those who don't subscribe to those rules. Have it as an option, but don't force it on people without their consent.
    As I said, it would be very easy to create a neutral menu (salmon on some such) that everyone would be happy with. That's the nature of diplomatic protocol.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,058
    edited January 2016

    I keep hearing in the news about Cameron now negotiating for an emergency brake that we have to ask the EC for permission to use and is vague in the usual EC way of life etc etc.....

    If the Leave/s campaign/s are unable to slaughter Cameron's deal when he comes back waving his piece of paper as a "europeace in our time", they are just not up to it. It is farcical.

    Portillo made a good point on This Week last night that to other EU leaders, who are going through the biggest migration crisis they've ever known, which could change the face of their countries in a decade and is leading to social disorder right now, Cameron banging on about "4 years before an EU migrant can claim benefits" is so petty and irrelevant to the current situation it seems like he is taking the piss
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    Mortimer said:

    Incidentally, has anyone ever suggested that centuries/millenia old guidelines on certain food/drink consumption in hot places might be negated by the development of fridges....

    I frequently jest with my other half (who is Catholic) that eating fish on Friday for religious reasons is a bit hipster, now that fish is generally more expensive than meat.

    And I trust that your other half reminds you that reason is a Protestant vice...

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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,958

    Mortimer said:

    Incidentally, has anyone ever suggested that centuries/millenia old guidelines on certain food/drink consumption in hot places might be negated by the development of fridges....

    I frequently jest with my other half (who is Catholic) that eating fish on Friday for religious reasons is a bit hipster, now that fish is generally more expensive than meat.

    And I trust that your other half reminds you that reason is a Protestant vice...

    She'll like that one. Thank you!
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    isam said:

    Cameron goes to Iran for a state banquet and says

    "I am not eating halal meat and I want a glass of wine"

    What happens?

    Cameron goes to China and in front of the international press is offered a plate of dog meat and an opium pipe. What happens?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,211
    isam said:

    I keep hearing in the news about Cameron now negotiating for an emergency brake that we have to ask the EC for permission to use and is vague in the usual EC way of life etc etc.....

    If the Leave/s campaign/s are unable to slaughter Cameron's deal when he comes back waving his piece of paper as a "europeace in our time", they are just not up to it. It is farcical.

    Portillo made a good point on This Week last night that to other EU leaders, who are going through the biggest migration crisis they've ever known, Cameron banging on about his deal "4 years before an EU migrant can claim benefits" is so petty and irrelevant to the current situation it seems like he is taking the piss
    Yes: sometimes it's important to have a bit of empathy and see the world through other peoples' eyes.
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    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Good on France http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/12126123/Hollande-Rouhani-lunch-scrapped-after-Elysee-Palace-refused-to-remove-wine-from-menu.html

    The lunch with François Hollande was reportedly dropped as the French refused to bow to demand for halal meat to be served and for the wine to be left off the table

    France, unlike Italy, has reportedly refused to take wine off the table for Iranian president Hassan Rouhani, meaning he will lunch alone during his historic trip to Paris – the first for an Iranian leader in 17 years.
    To be fair, that seems pretty damn rude. You are our guest, now off you pop to eat your dinner on your own.
    Really? When a guest you have to put up with your hosts.

    Wine = France, France = wine. It is more than alcohol, it symbolises a lot of what France stands for.

    It would be like saying you can't wear a suit in Whitehall because so and so is visiting.
    I have some vegan friends that come around for dinner from time to time. Despite being a meat eater, as my guests and friends, for that night I will make food that they can consume. Same with some Muslim friends. I don't really see it as a massive imposition to do so just on that occasion. It isn't like those people are forcing me to change my whole life to conform with them day in day out.
    I wouldn't serve a vegan menu to a mixed group just because one member subscribed to veganism. I would create a menu with options that suited everyone - everyone would be eating good food in good company without any one person setting the food agenda for the entire party.

    For me, it is worth going to an extra bit of effort as chef/host to provide options rather than conformity.
    The question I would ask is: do we serve pork at banquets for the Israelis, or beef for the Indians? If we do not, then we are engaging a little in double standards: we'll respect the religious preferences of Jews and Sikhs with the menu, but not Muslims.

    Does anything more show up the stupidity of religion - religion for goodness sake - where it demands you cannot eat a particular meat? Or indeed anything? What has religion got to do with food?
    Since the non followers of one religion happily eat the food which is banned by another (and slaughtered how any which way they want and are not struck down by lightening - then well just what's it about what's the great evil?
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,958
    isam said:

    I keep hearing in the news about Cameron now negotiating for an emergency brake that we have to ask the EC for permission to use and is vague in the usual EC way of life etc etc.....

    If the Leave/s campaign/s are unable to slaughter Cameron's deal when he comes back waving his piece of paper as a "europeace in our time", they are just not up to it. It is farcical.

    Portillo made a good point on This Week last night that to other EU leaders, who are going through the biggest migration crisis they've ever known, which could change the face of their countries in a decade and is leading to social disorder right now, Cameron banging on about "4 years before an EU migrant can claim benefits" is so petty and irrelevant to the current situation it seems like he is taking the piss
    Agreed.

    To be honest, the very modest list of demands Cameron was trying to gain made sense about 18 months ago. Now, it looks pretty weak. I think he has mis-judged this one. Given he is the only Tory PM in my adult life, I see this as a shame.
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    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    I remember when this used to be a really interesting site for discussing politics. Now it's just a meeting place for those who want to share their ugly prejudices with those of like mind. Is it any wonder that no one on the left bothers anymore? It's rather sad watching those who aren't part of the 'WTF brigade' trying to carry on as normal

    Is PB any different from politics as a whole? Right now the whole political culture seems utterly dysfunctional. I genuinely can't remember when I last heard an interesting new idea in politics.

    Do you know, I was just thinking that yesterday. At the moment is it more of the same vs failed bonkers 70's politics. General Election all sides manifestos were piss poor on ideas fronts. When was the last time we got something really new and interesting to debate, rather than just more tinkering. Steve Webb pension reforms I guess, but pensions are exactly things that get people pumped up.
    What is tragic is that we have big problems to solve.

    This morning on the Today programme there was an absurd debate on whether 15 mins (rather than 22 mins) was enough to provide social care.

    It is a ridiculous situation caused by councils scrabbling around looking for tactical solutions to what is one of the biggest and growing problems.
    Is there a politician out there with the courage to address this problem properly?

    Looking for new ideas?
    One way to help two problems through one action is to build lots of accomodation suitable for the 60+ people. This would then free up housing for others and for some delay the time when they go into a care home.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Angela Merkel is a 'narcissist' whose refusal to curb immigration may be a sign of a 'mental breakdown, according to a celebrated German psychiatrist.
    The German Chancellor has been heavily criticized over her 'open border' policy, which resulted in 1.1million refugees and migrants entering Germany last year.
    German psychiatrist Hans-Joachim Maaz said in an analysis that Mrs Merkel is so determined not to admit that she was wrong about her migration policy that she has 'lost touch with reality'."


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3421220/Angela-Merkel-showing-signs-mental-breakdown-narcissism-stubborn-refusal-reverse-migrant-policy-warns-celebrated-German-psychiatrist.html
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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Jonathan said:

    When the Iranian president comes to Britain, will the prime minister insist on serving suckling pig?

    No, he'll take him to the HoC and show him how to humiliate lefties without decapitating them.

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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,958

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    I remember when this used to be a really interesting site for discussing politics. Now it's just a meeting place for those who want to share their ugly prejudices with those of like mind. Is it any wonder that no one on the left bothers anymore? It's rather sad watching those who aren't part of the 'WTF brigade' trying to carry on as normal

    Is PB any different from politics as a whole? Right now the whole political culture seems utterly dysfunctional. I genuinely can't remember when I last heard an interesting new idea in politics.

    Do you know, I was just thinking that yesterday. At the moment is it more of the same vs failed bonkers 70's politics. General Election all sides manifestos were piss poor on ideas fronts. When was the last time we got something really new and interesting to debate, rather than just more tinkering. Steve Webb pension reforms I guess, but pensions are exactly things that get people pumped up.
    What is tragic is that we have big problems to solve.

    This morning on the Today programme there was an absurd debate on whether 15 mins (rather than 22 mins) was enough to provide social care.

    It is a ridiculous situation caused by councils scrabbling around looking for tactical solutions to what is one of the biggest and growing problems.
    Is there a politician out there with the courage to address this problem properly?

    Looking for new ideas?
    One way to help two problems through one action is to build lots of accomodation suitable for the 60+ people. This would then free up housing for others and for some delay the time when they go into a care home.
    Another good idea. I've often mooted with my 20 something mates that 15 of us ought to club together buy a big Scottish pile now, basically setting up our own retirement community.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,058
    AndyJS said:

    "Angela Merkel is a 'narcissist' whose refusal to curb immigration may be a sign of a 'mental breakdown, according to a celebrated German psychiatrist.
    The German Chancellor has been heavily criticized over her 'open border' policy, which resulted in 1.1million refugees and migrants entering Germany last year.
    German psychiatrist Hans-Joachim Maaz said in an analysis that Mrs Merkel is so determined not to admit that she was wrong about her migration policy that she has 'lost touch with reality'."


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3421220/Angela-Merkel-showing-signs-mental-breakdown-narcissism-stubborn-refusal-reverse-migrant-policy-warns-celebrated-German-psychiatrist.html

    "so determined not to admit that she was wrong about her migration policy that she has 'lost touch with reality'.""

    That is one of my summations on almost all modern political leaders
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    Lord Stewart Wood on the Today programme this morning was very interesting - it was quite a novel experience hearing a Labour figure talking sense about the economy, and a reminder that there are still a few grown-ups in the party.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,934
    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    I remember when this used to be a really interesting site for discussing politics. Now it's just a meeting place for those who want to share their ugly prejudices with those of like mind. Is it any wonder that no one on the left bothers anymore? It's rather sad watching those who aren't part of the 'WTF brigade' trying to carry on as normal

    Is PB any different from politics as a whole? Right now the whole political culture seems utterly dysfunctional. I genuinely can't remember when I last heard an interesting new idea in politics.

    I agree that the dynamics have changed now there's no longer a functioning 'left' but scraping the u-bend of The Daily Mail isn't an obvious outcome of the new dysfunctional politics.
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    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    I remember when this used to be a really interesting site for discussing politics. Now it's just a meeting place for those who want to share their ugly prejudices with those of like mind. Is it any wonder that no one on the left bothers anymore? It's rather sad watching those who aren't part of the 'WTF brigade' trying to carry on as normal

    Is PB any different from politics as a whole? Right now the whole political culture seems utterly dysfunctional. I genuinely can't remember when I last heard an interesting new idea in politics.

    Do you know, I was just thinking that yesterday. At the moment is it more of the same vs failed bonkers 70's politics. General Election all sides manifestos were piss poor on ideas fronts. When was the last time we got something really new and interesting to debate, rather than just more tinkering. Steve Webb pension reforms I guess, but pensions are exactly things that get people pumped up.
    What is tragic is that we have big problems to solve.

    This morning on the Today programme there was an absurd debate on whether 15 mins (rather than 22 mins) was enough to provide social care.

    It is a ridiculous situation caused by councils scrabbling around looking for tactical solutions to what is one of the biggest and growing problems.

    Is there a politician out there with the courage to address this problem properly?
    Agreed. This is a problem that will only become more and more of an issue in the years to come and solutions are not about well lets bung a bit more money at it or force providers to spend 5 more minutes with each service user. It requires some radical joined up thinking, long term planning and dare I say it probably some unpopular decisions.
    The problem is people want social care, demand social care, but do not want to pay for it. They want someone else to pay for it - the tax payer the rate payer - and they demand the right to complain about it as well.
    The first responsibility for the person who needs care is the family of the person who needs care, not me not you not any third party.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Good on France

    The lunch with François Hollande was reportedly dropped as the French refused to bow to demand for halal meat to be served and for the wine to be left off the table

    France, unlike Italy, has reportedly refused to take wine off the table for Iranian president Hassan Rouhani, meaning he will lunch alone during his historic trip to Paris – the first for an Iranian leader in 17 years.
    To be fair, that seems pretty damn rude. You are our guest, now off you pop to eat your dinner on your own.
    Really? When a guest you have to put up with your hosts.

    Wine = France, France = wine. It is more than alcohol, it symbolises a lot of what France stands for.

    It would be like saying you can't wear a suit in Whitehall because so and so is visiting.
    I have some vegan friends that come around for dinner from time to time. Despite being a meat eater, as my guests and friends, for that night I will make food that they can consume. Same with some Muslim friends. I don't really see it as a massive imposition to do so just on that occasion. It isn't like those people are forcing me to change my whole life to conform with them day in day out.
    I wouldn't serve a vegan menu to a mixed group just because one member subscribed to veganism. I would create a menu with options that suited everyone - everyone would be eating good food in good company without any one person setting the food agenda for the entire party.

    For me, it is worth going to an extra bit of effort as chef/host to provide options rather than conformity.
    The question I would ask is: do we serve pork at banquets for the Israelis, or beef for the Indians? If we do not, then we are engaging a little in double standards: we'll respect the religious preferences of Jews and Sikhs with the menu, but not Muslims.

    No-one is suggesting having double-standards. The point is that you can have options - even in mass catering.

    If someone is so strict that they refuse to sit next to someone who is eating something different to them - then greater problems arise. But you just adjust the seating plan to deal with it.

    A greater concern when menu planning is to ensure that you aren't going to trigger any severe allergies which can be life-threatening.

    I know of people who are so sensitive to peanuts that they can't be in the same room as someone eating them, let alone eat one themselves.

    Under those circumstances, you do have to eliminate certain ingredients from the list of possibles. But otherwise, just provide options.
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    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    rcs1000 said:

    Dair said:

    Latest tweet from JK Rowling: The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." Marcus Aurelius

    she's on the side of the majority in the independence debate
    I suspect she is referring to her recent discussion on Twitter:

    http://www.ew.com/article/2016/1/28/jk-rowling-natalie-mcgarry-twitter?xid=IFT-Trending

    It appears the Nationalist defence is that if you've ever retweeted something by someone you agree with everything they have ever tweeted.....

    Of course the Nats didn't help their case by cut & pasting a supportive Rowling tweet, thanking for a charity donation onto other unrelated tweets.....
    "is that if you've ever retweeted" ... 200 times so they say
    I'm disinclined to trust people who cut n'paste tweets as 'proof'......not just fibbers, but amateur fibbers.....
    This was linked from the wings site:

    https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=from:jk_rowling @BrianSpanner1&src=typd

    she seems to know the fellow at least. (I'm not going to spend any more time on the wizardly one -can we talk education instead?)
    The consensus is that Spanner is actually Loyalist "journalist" Euan McColm.

    The wailing by Rowling and typical use of her twitter mob to bully anyone who doesn't believe in her extreme right-wing British Nationalist agenda appears to have backfired spectacularly.
    You must be using a different Twitter to the rest of planet earth.
    Well said.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    An Opium pipe and Dog Pie..I expect that Cameron,like most people,would politely refuse both..and shame his hosts..who would deserve it..
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    isam said:

    Cameron goes to Iran for a state banquet and says

    "I am not eating halal meat and I want a glass of wine"

    What happens?

    Cameron goes to China and in front of the international press is offered a plate of dog meat and an opium pipe. What happens?
    Dave gets out his Supertramp CD?
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited January 2016
    isam said:

    I keep hearing in the news about Cameron now negotiating for an emergency brake that we have to ask the EC for permission to use and is vague in the usual EC way of life etc etc.....

    If the Leave/s campaign/s are unable to slaughter Cameron's deal when he comes back waving his piece of paper as a "europeace in our time", they are just not up to it. It is farcical.

    Portillo made a good point on This Week last night that to other EU leaders, who are going through the biggest migration crisis they've ever known, which could change the face of their countries in a decade and is leading to social disorder right now, Cameron banging on about "4 years before an EU migrant can claim benefits" is so petty and irrelevant to the current situation it seems like he is taking the piss
    This is where Cameron should try a different tack and produce a solution to reduce the migrant problem for the future. We have a very large overseas budget. We believe that the best solution now for Syrian refugees is spending money in that area to deter migration. Cameron needs to think big and propose a Mediterranean wide aid budget that is aimed at establishing safe enclaves in Northern Africa and the Middle East that are "free trade zones" where refugees can go administered by the EC. Think of a dozen Hong Kong's being setup to solve the migration problem and provide a safe home.
  • Options
    As Churchill said when he was told that he could neither smoke nor drink at a banquet with King Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia, “My religion prescribes as an absolute sacred ritual smoking cigars and drinking alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and the intervals between them.”
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited January 2016
    AndyJS said:

    "Angela Merkel is a 'narcissist' whose refusal to curb immigration may be a sign of a 'mental breakdown, according to a celebrated German psychiatrist.
    The German Chancellor has been heavily criticized over her 'open border' policy, which resulted in 1.1million refugees and migrants entering Germany last year.
    German psychiatrist Hans-Joachim Maaz said in an analysis that Mrs Merkel is so determined not to admit that she was wrong about her migration policy that she has 'lost touch with reality'."


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3421220/Angela-Merkel-showing-signs-mental-breakdown-narcissism-stubborn-refusal-reverse-migrant-policy-warns-celebrated-German-psychiatrist.html

    That's why the US two term rule is so important. After a decade in power insanity is near inevitable. Merkel, of course, is stark mad and should be removed from office immediately.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited January 2016
    ''Portillo made a good point on This Week last night that to other EU leaders, who are going through the biggest migration crisis they've ever known, which could change the face of their countries in a decade and is leading to social disorder right now, Cameron banging on about "4 years before an EU migrant can claim benefits" is so petty and irrelevant to the current situation it seems like he is taking the piss ''

    Absolutely. The political situation right now is changing as quickly and dramatically as I can ever remember in my lifetime (I am in my 50s).

    Extremely sane and clever politicians such as David Cameron can be seriously wrong-footed very quickly.

    Its quite possible in this climate that a divided OUT could win without a single leading politician to implement its mandate. Things are that volatile, for me.
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    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    watford30 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Good on France http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/12126123/Hollande-Rouhani-lunch-scrapped-after-Elysee-Palace-refused-to-remove-wine-from-menu.html

    The lunch with François Hollande was reportedly dropped as the French refused to bow to demand for halal meat to be served and for the wine to be left off the table

    France, unlike Italy, has reportedly refused to take wine off the table for Iranian president Hassan Rouhani, meaning he will lunch alone during his historic trip to Paris – the first for an Iranian leader in 17 years.
    It's very bad manners towards one's host. It would be like going to a Muslim State banquet and wanting to be served wine, or an Israeli State banquet and wanting to be served pork.
    It's bad manners towards one's guest. And deliberately so, looking at the menu. Though both sides seem as bad as each other.

    Still, the French aren't hanging around when it comes to brokering business deals with Iranians. Aircraft, petrochemical and car deals within a couple of weeks of relations thawing.

    What are we doing? I suspect the Foreign Office are thinking about it over a series of long lunches in Pall Mall. Something will happen in 6 months or so, when contracts have been signed with every other nation.

    We make wings and engines (and I guess other bits) for the planes in question. Our major car producers are JLR (Indian owned) Nissan and BMW. I imagine they are capable of sorting out their own export orders.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    I remember when this used to be a really interesting site for discussing politics. Now it's just a meeting place for those who want to share their ugly prejudices with those of like mind. Is it any wonder that no one on the left bothers anymore? It's rather sad watching those who aren't part of the 'WTF brigade' trying to carry on as normal

    Is PB any different from politics as a whole? Right now the whole political culture seems utterly dysfunctional. I genuinely can't remember when I last heard an interesting new idea in politics.

    I agree that the dynamics have changed now there's no longer a functioning 'left' but scraping the u-bend of The Daily Mail isn't an obvious outcome of the new dysfunctional politics.
    Are you sure? I think the Daily Mail is a product designed to occupy minds, to spare them from the challenges of nuanced political issues. It is ideally suited to our times.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2016


    Things were more civilised in the Iran of the 12th century:


    A Book of Verses underneath the Bough, 
    A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread-and Thou 
    Beside me singing in the Wilderness- 
    O, Wilderness were Paradise enow! 

    Omar Khyayyam

    Such behaviour would now get you flogged, or worse in modern day Iran.

    The Iranian President should have suitable food and beverages, but has no right of veto of the menu for the host. I shall raise a glass myself to toast Mr Hollande this weekend for standing up for freedom.
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    AndyJS said:

    "Angela Merkel is a 'narcissist' whose refusal to curb immigration may be a sign of a 'mental breakdown, according to a celebrated German psychiatrist.
    The German Chancellor has been heavily criticized over her 'open border' policy, which resulted in 1.1million refugees and migrants entering Germany last year.
    German psychiatrist Hans-Joachim Maaz said in an analysis that Mrs Merkel is so determined not to admit that she was wrong about her migration policy that she has 'lost touch with reality'."


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3421220/Angela-Merkel-showing-signs-mental-breakdown-narcissism-stubborn-refusal-reverse-migrant-policy-warns-celebrated-German-psychiatrist.html

    That's why the US two term rule is so important. After a decade in power insanity is near inevitable. Merkel, of course, is stark mad and should be removed from office immediately.
    You forgot "raving".

    We try to maintain a high standard of cliché here...

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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Joe Murphy
    EU POLL _ The gap narrows again. It's 50-38 with @ipsosMORI in the @EveningStandard. Was 61-27 last June #nailbiter
    https://t.co/tZZFfygxpZ
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    I remember when this used to be a really interesting site for discussing politics. Now it's just a meeting place for those who want to share their ugly prejudices with those of like mind. Is it any wonder that no one on the left bothers anymore? It's rather sad watching those who aren't part of the 'WTF brigade' trying to carry on as normal

    Is PB any different from politics as a whole? Right now the whole political culture seems utterly dysfunctional. I genuinely can't remember when I last heard an interesting new idea in politics.

    Do you know, I was just thinking that yesterday. At the moment is it more of the same vs failed bonkers 70's politics. General Election all sides manifestos were piss poor on ideas fronts. When was the last time we got something really new and interesting to debate, rather than just more tinkering. Steve Webb pension reforms I guess, but pensions are exactly things that get people pumped up.
    What is tragic is that we have big problems to solve.

    This morning on the Today programme there was an absurd debate on whether 15 mins (rather than 22 mins) was enough to provide social care.

    It is a ridiculous situation caused by councils scrabbling around looking for tactical solutions to what is one of the biggest and growing problems.
    Is there a politician out there with the courage to address this problem properly?

    Looking for new ideas?
    One way to help two problems through one action is to build lots of accomodation suitable for the 60+ people. This would then free up housing for others and for some delay the time when they go into a care home.

    What is accommodation suitable for old people though? Surely the problem is less the house that someone lives in (although cold, damp houses won't help) but the need for 24hr personal care.

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/14/social-care-minister-multi-generational-households-state-costs-old-age
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    Mortimer said:

    isam said:

    I keep hearing in the news about Cameron now negotiating for an emergency brake that we have to ask the EC for permission to use and is vague in the usual EC way of life etc etc.....

    If the Leave/s campaign/s are unable to slaughter Cameron's deal when he comes back waving his piece of paper as a "europeace in our time", they are just not up to it. It is farcical.

    Portillo made a good point on This Week last night that to other EU leaders, who are going through the biggest migration crisis they've ever known, which could change the face of their countries in a decade and is leading to social disorder right now, Cameron banging on about "4 years before an EU migrant can claim benefits" is so petty and irrelevant to the current situation it seems like he is taking the piss
    Agreed.

    To be honest, the very modest list of demands Cameron was trying to gain made sense about 18 months ago. Now, it looks pretty weak. I think he has mis-judged this one. Given he is the only Tory PM in my adult life, I see this as a shame.
    You say "weak" ..... I say pathetic.

    It seems that he just wants to close a deal on the EU as soon as possible, any deal that is, with ever reducing demands and expectations and then get the referendum over and done with.

    Well he may be in for a big shock!
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,870

    I don't think Labour supporters would argue that things are going well, and that's reflected in the polls. But we didn't elect Corbyn *primarily* to do well, but to represent our views consistently - it's a revisit of the "leadership that you support or leadership with no particular views who might win?" debate, which the leadership ballot decisively answered. If he also when and if things settle down manages to do well, that's a bonus. I know it's not the typical view here, or among professionals generally, who feel it's all about winning and making whatever shifts necessary, but it's what most members think.

    It is all very well having a desire to feel 'represented' (though NP didn't seem to show any previous inclination towards a Corbynist agenda in the past) - but the point of political parties is surely to strive to win enough votes to stand a chance of implementing their policies.

    Purity of thought is all very reassuring for those within the bubble - but it is meaningless unless your party is reaching out and persuading voters to actually support you.

    And that is where the Corbyn experiment is failing. It is not the membership that should be being represented, it is the electorate. Waving your mandate around hides the fact that the wider population is moving further and further away from the Labour Party - and that is bad for democracy - at least in the short-to-medium term.
    Labour's focus on purity of thought may well end up with them facing electoral oblivion. FPTP has a nasty cliff edge as the LibDems discovered.
    The state of the Lib Dems will probably save a lot of Labour seats.
    I think someone on a previous thread reckoned Labour had to drop to around 14% before they would no longer be the official opposition, so electorally they have a luxury similar to a student from a wealthy family discovering himself in the Far East for 4 years and then returning to set up an online ethnic wares business that makes no money.

    If a single third party became all conquering, like the SNP in Scotland, that could change the dynamic, but there is no evidence of either UKIP or the Lib Dems being able to do that.

    Any jolt back if Corbyn does fail can only come from within the Labour party. Many Corbynistas may be patient electorally and want a decently leftist agenda, but Corbyn still needs to do things better, as I don't believe there is infinite patience even amongst Corbyn's supporters for being the fourth best run anti-austerity party in the UK.

    Perhaps a good poll question for those who support an anti-austerity platform would be - who best represents the cause of anti-austerity in the UK (Labour/Nationalists/Green/Other).
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'Portillo made a good point on This Week last night that to other EU leaders, who are going through the biggest migration crisis they've ever known, which could change the face of their countries in a decade and is leading to social disorder right now, Cameron banging on about "4 years before an EU migrant can claim benefits" is so petty and irrelevant to the current situation it seems like he is taking the piss ''

    It seems like taking the piss to a lot of people in the UK as well...because it is
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Twitter reports an INSA poll shows 40% of Germans want Merkel to resign over the refugee crisis. That's Angela Merkel, the colossus who dominated European politics just a year ago and was the subject of much British fawning in parliament.

    Things are changing very quickly now. Almost day to day.
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,870
    edited January 2016


    Cameron goes to China and in front of the international press is offered a plate of dog meat and an opium pipe. What happens?


    He pretends it's a Bullingdon Club meeting?
  • Options



    Things were more civilised in the Iran of the 12th century:


    A Book of Verses underneath the Bough, 
    A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread-and Thou 
    Beside me singing in the Wilderness- 
    O, Wilderness were Paradise enow! 

    Omar Khyayyam

    Such behaviour would now get you flogged, or worse in modern day Iran.

    The Iranian President should have suitable food and beverages, but has no right of veto of the menu for the host. I shall raise a glass myself to toast Mr Hollande this weekend for standing up for freedom.

    Do you think smoking is permitted by the authorities at Hollande's Persian banquet ?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,571

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    I remember when this used to be a really interesting site for discussing politics. Now it's just a meeting place for those who want to share their ugly prejudices with those of like mind. Is it any wonder that no one on the left bothers anymore? It's rather sad watching those who aren't part of the 'WTF brigade' trying to carry on as normal

    Is PB any different from politics as a whole? Right now the whole political culture seems utterly dysfunctional. I genuinely can't remember when I last heard an interesting new idea in politics.

    Do you know, I was just thinking that yesterday. At the moment is it more of the same vs failed bonkers 70's politics. General Election all sides manifestos were piss poor on ideas fronts. When was the last time we got something really new and interesting to debate, rather than just more tinkering. Steve Webb pension reforms I guess, but pensions are exactly things that get people pumped up.
    What is tragic is that we have big problems to solve.

    This morning on the Today programme there was an absurd debate on whether 15 mins (rather than 22 mins) was enough to provide social care.

    It is a ridiculous situation caused by councils scrabbling around looking for tactical solutions to what is one of the biggest and growing problems.

    Is there a politician out there with the courage to address this problem properly?
    Agreed. This is a problem that will only become more and more of an issue in the years to come and solutions are not about well lets bung a bit more money at it or force providers to spend 5 more minutes with each service user. It requires some radical joined up thinking, long term planning and dare I say it probably some unpopular decisions.
    The problem is people want social care, demand social care, but do not want to pay for it. They want someone else to pay for it - the tax payer the rate payer - and they demand the right to complain about it as well.
    The first responsibility for the person who needs care is the family of the person who needs care, not me not you not any third party.
    The issue with this is that not everyone has family (e.g. elderly without children) or a family that is equipped to cope (personal care can be extremely demanding and indeed, impossible for say an elderly man with his own health issues looking after his wife with dementia).

    None of us know whether we will be the one's placed in this situation at some point.

    That's why pooling the risk via some kind of social insurance is the answer.
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    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    According to the chart Saudi Arabia is only 1.6% debt.

    If the oil price games carry on much longer that number will rise very quickly. They are burning through currency reserves at an astonishing rate, and desparately trying to reduce govt spending without upsetting the population - the Gulf states have some of the world's most generous welfare for citizens.
    Oil in Iraq and Iran and eventually Libya coming on stream will form a ceiling for oil prices, as will the ability to pump out fracked oil and gas. It will be a lot less than $110 a barrel though.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    When even Andrew Pierce is shooting Cameron's deal down in flames, you just know it won't be enough!!
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    400000 down. Wow.
    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    I am shocked I tell you shocked. I thought all those people in doughnut shaped building in the South West* just sat around all day playing chess and solving brain teasers that they set for each other...

    * and yes it is officially classed as the South West, before somebody says that it isn't in the South West of the country.
    ooh arghh ah bant naart bi disagreeable with thee abaart that mi old duck.
  • Options
    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    That's an astonishing reduction in the size of the London electorate over just four years, which suggests fraud existed on a truly massive and widespread scale previously.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''That's an astonishing reduction in the size of the London electorate over just four years, which suggests fraud existed on a truly massive and widespread scale previously.''

    In the future, It would not surprise me if the legitimacy of the 2005 and 2010 results were seriously questioned by historians.

    In Britain. FFS
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024

    400000 down. Wow.

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    Will be interesting to watch the turnout % at the mayoral election, was only 38% last time. If it's up significantly then the re-registration probably worked in cleaning up the electoral roll in a city with a fast moving population.

    Not to mention the small flats in certain areas that appeared to be rather overcrowded judging by the number of postal voters living there.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    That's an astonishing reduction in the size of the London electorate over just four years, which suggests fraud existed on a truly massive and widespread scale previously.
    Or it shows London has a high population turnover.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    Unable to vote or just didn't exist in the first place?

    Individual registration is the only way electoral rolls should be drawn up - simple as that. It is still open to abuse - but far less.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Could be total nonsense, but amusing

    @joecraiguk
    A thing happened to me last night & I think you'll enjoy it, but I'll tell you later. Not suitable for lunch time, but remind me later.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    taffys said:

    ''That's an astonishing reduction in the size of the London electorate over just four years, which suggests fraud existed on a truly massive and widespread scale previously.''

    In the future, It would not surprise me if the legitimacy of the 2005 and 2010 results were seriously questioned by historians.

    In Britain. FFS

    Do we have a breakdown by London borough? I'm guessing places like Tower Hamlets and Newham will have had the biggest drops.
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.
    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.
    But Khan is unhappy:
    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    That's an astonishing reduction in the size of the London electorate over just four years, which suggests fraud existed on a truly massive and widespread scale previously.
    You would think that individual voter registration would be the cornerstone of democracy.
    No wonder Labour are against it.
    Do they have a policy of repeal?
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    From 2002: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1789500.stm

    To 2016:

    Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 45m45 minutes ago
    OECD warns many English graduates too low-skilled to earn above the threshold to start repaying their loans.

    Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 45m45 minutes ago
    OECD rated English teenagers aged 16 to 19 the worst of 23 developed nations in literacy and 22nd of 23 in numeracy.

    What a debt laden mess.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    rcs1000 said:

    Dair said:

    Latest tweet from JK Rowling: The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." Marcus Aurelius

    she's on the side of the majority in the independence debate
    I suspect she is referring to her recent discussion on Twitter:

    http://www.ew.com/article/2016/1/28/jk-rowling-natalie-mcgarry-twitter?xid=IFT-Trending

    It appears the Nationalist defence is that if you've ever retweeted something by someone you agree with everything they have ever tweeted.....

    Of course the Nats didn't help their case by cut & pasting a supportive Rowling tweet, thanking for a charity donation onto other unrelated tweets.....
    "is that if you've ever retweeted" ... 200 times so they say
    I'm disinclined to trust people who cut n'paste tweets as 'proof'......not just fibbers, but amateur fibbers.....
    This was linked from the wings site:

    https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=from:jk_rowling @BrianSpanner1&src=typd

    she seems to know the fellow at least. (I'm not going to spend any more time on the wizardly one -can we talk education instead?)
    The consensus is that Spanner is actually Loyalist "journalist" Euan McColm.

    The wailing by Rowling and typical use of her twitter mob to bully anyone who doesn't believe in her extreme right-wing British Nationalist agenda appears to have backfired spectacularly.
    You must be using a different Twitter to the rest of planet earth.
    Well said.
    McTwitter. Password is 'LostReferendum'.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,510
    It would be interesting to see which boroughs have suffered the largest drops. Can I get first dibs on Tower Hamlets if we are going to have a pool?
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Alongside individual voter registration, we need to look again at postal voting rules.

    Postal votes should only be issued on an election-by-election basis and only in cases where people genuinely can't get to the polling station due to absence or infirmity. More work, yes - but a fairer result.

    I would also like to see a system developed where you had to prove your identity on arrival at the polling station - radical as that may sound.
  • Options
    JonathanD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    I remember when this used to be a really interesting site for discussing politics. Now it's just a meeting place for those who want to share their ugly prejudices with those of like mind. Is it any wonder that no one on the left bothers anymore? It's rather sad watching those who aren't part of the 'WTF brigade' trying to carry on as normal

    Is PB any different from politics as a whole? Right now the whole political culture seems utterly dysfunctional. I genuinely can't remember when I last heard an interesting new idea in politics.

    Do you know, I was just thinking that yesterday. At the moment is it more of the same vs failed bonkers 70's politics. General Election all sides manifestos were piss poor on ideas fronts. When was the last time we got something really new and interesting to debate, rather than just more tinkering. Steve Webb pension reforms I guess, but pensions are exactly things that get people pumped up.
    What is tragic is that we have big problems to solve.

    This morning on the Today programme there was an absurd debate on whether 15 mins (rather than 22 mins) was enough to provide social care.

    It is a ridiculous situation caused by councils scrabbling around looking for tactical solutions to what is one of the biggest and growing problems.
    Is there a politician out there with the courage to address this problem properly?

    Looking for new ideas?
    One way to help two problems through one action is to build lots of accomodation suitable for the 60+ people. This would then free up housing for others and for some delay the time when they go into a care home.

    What is accommodation suitable for old people though? Surely the problem is less the house that someone lives in (although cold, damp houses won't help) but the need for 24hr personal care.

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/14/social-care-minister-multi-generational-households-state-costs-old-age
    The period of life that can keep people in their own accommodation be it "sheltered accomodation" or "retirement villages" is where people can live with a degree of independence far longer than they would in a conventional two storey house isolated from support. The problem is that not enough is being built and its cost is higher than it should be (laws of supply and demand). Added to that is that since the state will fund those who have no assets above approx £14,000, there is no incentive on people to do the right thing and fund themselves. You may as well blow it all on cruises and booze as the state will pick up the final tab.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    edited January 2016
    taffys said:

    When even Andrew Pierce is shooting Cameron's deal down in flames, you just know it won't be enough!!

    With the repidly changing situation in the EU, any deal is going to risk looking miminal. The PM is in danger of having pretty much the whole media against him running up the the referendum, maybe only the pink'un and the Guardian in favour - two papers that almost no-one outside London ever reads.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,464

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    That's an astonishing reduction in the size of the London electorate over just four years, which suggests fraud existed on a truly massive and widespread scale previously.
    Do we know how many of the missing 400000 are in Tower Hamlets?
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,870

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    Unable to vote or just didn't exist in the first place?

    Individual registration is the only way electoral rolls should be drawn up - simple as that. It is still open to abuse - but far less.
    Presumably with 2 1/2 months of voter registration left, the 5.5 million figure still has time to rise significantly.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    What a debt laden mess.

    The desperate, desperate failures of the Blair government are still with us, in some forms.
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    Unable to vote or just didn't exist in the first place?

    Individual registration is the only way electoral rolls should be drawn up - simple as that. It is still open to abuse - but far less.
    We don't know but a mix of 'didn't exist' and 'stopped existing years ago' more likely. Person A lives in bedsit. Person A moves to Pakistan. Person B still says Person A lives with them. Person B gets postal vote and votes Labour.
  • Options



    Things were more civilised in the Iran of the 12th century:


    A Book of Verses underneath the Bough, 
    A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread-and Thou 
    Beside me singing in the Wilderness- 
    O, Wilderness were Paradise enow! 

    Omar Khyayyam

    .


    Old Persian saying:


    He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool - shun him

    He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a child - teach him

    He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep - wake him

    He who knows and knows that he knows is a wise man - follow him
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221

    Alongside individual voter registration, we need to look again at postal voting rules.

    Postal votes should only be issued on an election-by-election basis and only in cases where people genuinely can't get to the polling station due to absence or infirmity. More work, yes - but a fairer result.

    I would also like to see a system developed where you had to prove your identity on arrival at the polling station - radical as that may sound.

    Yes, postal votes are well dodgy. But both big parties get big response though so do't want to banish them. They should be for: Over 75s, disabled, those who can absolutely prove they are travelling. Anyone else, hard luck. They know when the election is, they should make the effort.
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    chestnut said:

    From 2002: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1789500.stm

    To 2016:

    Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 45m45 minutes ago
    OECD warns many English graduates too low-skilled to earn above the threshold to start repaying their loans.

    Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 45m45 minutes ago
    OECD rated English teenagers aged 16 to 19 the worst of 23 developed nations in literacy and 22nd of 23 in numeracy.

    What a debt laden mess.


    Disappointing that 5 years of Tory government still haven't managed to correct teenagers poor skills. Certainly by 2020 we need to see some improvements.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,958
    Pro_Rata said:

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    Unable to vote or just didn't exist in the first place?

    Individual registration is the only way electoral rolls should be drawn up - simple as that. It is still open to abuse - but far less.
    Presumably with 2 1/2 months of voter registration left, the 5.5 million figure still has time to rise significantly.
    Indeed. But given every single registrant has already had 9 attempts to reach them, I can't see it rising much.
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    DavidL said:

    It would be interesting to see which boroughs have suffered the largest drops. Can I get first dibs on Tower Hamlets if we are going to have a pool?

    Lots of jokes about Tower Hamlets doing the political rounds. Of course, new constituency boundaries are going to be based on the recent individual voter registrations. That means that Labour areas that thought they would get extra Labour MPs may now not. It's great. Honesty at last.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''With the rapidly changing situation in the EU, any deal is going to risk looking miminal.''

    David Cameron is an extremely resourceful and clever politician. He knew what it took to beat labour, bless him.

    His comments today suggest this point may be dawning on him.
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.
    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.
    But Khan is unhappy:
    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    That's an astonishing reduction in the size of the London electorate over just four years, which suggests fraud existed on a truly massive and widespread scale previously.
    You would think that individual voter registration would be the cornerstone of democracy.
    No wonder Labour are against it.
    Do they have a policy of repeal?
    when they next get elected!
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    That's an astonishing reduction in the size of the London electorate over just four years, which suggests fraud existed on a truly massive and widespread scale previously.
    I agree. I was invited to a certain religious festival and there was the Labour politician on the stage and the crowd were told to vote for him! I spent my time shaking hands explaining that other political parties like the good Tories are available.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    edited January 2016
    Speaking for myself, I'd see nothing wrong with having roast pork as a menu choice at a diplomatic banquet at which Jews or Muslims were present, so long as they had a choice that reflected their own dietary rules. When entertaining at home, if there are Jews, Muslims, or vegetarians present, I'll ensure that there's food available that they can eat, but I wouldn't restrict the food choices to theirs.

    Edit: I must say though that kosher catering can be a nightmare. I thought that food was just kosher or non-kosher, until I discovered that there are many different types of kosher; indeed, some Jews won't let a gentile cater for them at all.
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    That's an astonishing reduction in the size of the London electorate over just four years, which suggests fraud existed on a truly massive and widespread scale previously.
    Yes, massive fraud, perpetrated by Labour and their followers from a certain banana republic.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    Dixie said:

    Alongside individual voter registration, we need to look again at postal voting rules.

    Postal votes should only be issued on an election-by-election basis and only in cases where people genuinely can't get to the polling station due to absence or infirmity. More work, yes - but a fairer result.

    I would also like to see a system developed where you had to prove your identity on arrival at the polling station - radical as that may sound.

    Yes, postal votes are well dodgy. But both big parties get big response though so do't want to banish them. They should be for: Over 75s, disabled, those who can absolutely prove they are travelling. Anyone else, hard luck. They know when the election is, they should make the effort.
    Quite. I applied for a postal vote in about 2009 when I was travelling loads and often away for weeks on end, wanted to make sure I could help kick Brown out. Was totally amazed to find that I was seemingly registered forever. Now I have to re-register but they'll still automatically give me the postal vote.

    It should need to be applied for for every election, travellers and expats will happily do so if they think the vote is important enough to them.
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    Sandpit said:

    400000 down. Wow.

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    Will be interesting to watch the turnout % at the mayoral election, was only 38% last time. If it's up significantly then the re-registration probably worked in cleaning up the electoral roll in a city with a fast moving population.

    Not to mention the small flats in certain areas that appeared to be rather overcrowded judging by the number of postal voters living there.
    On the doorsteps, people were more up for Ken V Boris, like Ali V Frazier. So, turnout in pure number will be probably lower. As electorate is 400,000 smaller, I think % turnout will be about same though. Depends how excitable the candidates get.
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    snip

    snip
    snip.
    What is tragic is that we have big problems to solve.

    This morning on the Today programme there was an absurd debate on whether 15 mins (rather than 22 mins) was enough to provide social care.

    It is a ridiculous situation caused by councils scrabbling around looking for tactical solutions to what is one of the biggest and growing problems.

    Is there a politician out there with the courage to address this problem properly?
    Agreed. This is a problem that will only become more and more of an issue in the years to come and solutions are not about well lets bung a bit more money at it or force providers to spend 5 more minutes with each service user. It requires some radical joined up thinking, long term planning and dare I say it probably some unpopular decisions.
    The problem is people want social care, demand social care, but do not want to pay for it. They want someone else to pay for it - the tax payer the rate payer - and they demand the right to complain about it as well.
    The first responsibility for the person who needs care is the family of the person who needs care, not me not you not any third party.
    The issue with this is that not everyone has family (e.g. elderly without children) or a family that is equipped to cope (personal care can be extremely demanding and indeed, impossible for say an elderly man with his own health issues looking after his wife with dementia).

    None of us know whether we will be the one's placed in this situation at some point.

    That's why pooling the risk via some kind of social insurance is the answer.
    Yes I agree about pooling of risk. But where that insurance is provided by the state - as opposed to some private insurance where the level of care is determined by the size of the contributions - then there are clearly limits to what that level of care can be. Health and social care is a bottomless pit. We have a health budget and as a nation we simply have to live within it.
    What is wrong is the political opposition to private care and top up insurance - not at all uncommon in other national health services - which would ease the burden on the NHS.
    Having said that I think that current private health care is limited in what it can do and I would support closer integration with the NHS. However I think the cost of such top ups and such private care should not be underestimated.
    http://www.hsj.co.uk/topics/efficiency/how-patients-could-benefit-from-top-up-payments/5046147.fullarticle

    http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/healthinsurance.html

  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,958
    Dixie said:

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.
    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.
    But Khan is unhappy:
    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    That's an astonishing reduction in the size of the London electorate over just four years, which suggests fraud existed on a truly massive and widespread scale previously.
    You would think that individual voter registration would be the cornerstone of democracy.
    No wonder Labour are against it.
    Do they have a policy of repeal?
    when they next get elected!
    2045 then?

    Joking apart, this is not one of those things can you repeal. Like the minimum wage, it is one of the 'cat out of the bag' issues. Rightly, or wrongly (though I'd say rightly in both cases here), it isn't going to be replaced.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,810
    DavidL said:

    The real problem we have to solve is that we still have a structural deficit of the best part of £100bn. By this point in the economic cycle we really should have been paying down debt for some time. Instead we are going to borrow about £80bn in this FY.

    So the services that we complain about and claim are being cut in "unacceptable" ways already cost about £100bn more than we are prepared to pay in taxes. That is a truly massive gap and it strikes me as hugely optimistic that growth is going to close the circle any time soon.

    We face a choice. Either we pay a lot more in taxes (and this will undoubtedly involve very significant reductions in generous allowances like tax relief on pension contributions) or we start finding things that the State does that we do not want them to do anymore. Big things. Bigger than the education and defence budget put together.

    Osborne is tiptoeing to higher taxes whilst seeking to restrain the growth in public spending but I continue to have real doubts that this paring approach can succeed. Rather than thinking about new and expensive services that the State can offer we need to think about what has to stop. And if we want our grannies properly looked after we better start coming around to the idea that we will be doing it ourselves.

    I agree, and Osborne has wildly seesawed between the two.

    Barely 18 months ago he was gearing up for 'the lowest government spending since the 1930s', and it looked like the State would be small indeed in 2020 focussed on health, pensions, and aid. But that got a bad press.

    Now, Osborne is about saving tax credits, no more big departmental cuts and ramping up taxes on pensions and begging a few corporations for scraps. And that's getting a bad press.

    It really is impressive pivoting. The only consistency is his target to balance the books within 5 years...somehow.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,207
    JonathanD said:

    chestnut said:

    From 2002: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1789500.stm

    To 2016:

    Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 45m45 minutes ago
    OECD warns many English graduates too low-skilled to earn above the threshold to start repaying their loans.

    Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 45m45 minutes ago
    OECD rated English teenagers aged 16 to 19 the worst of 23 developed nations in literacy and 22nd of 23 in numeracy.

    What a debt laden mess.

    Disappointing that 5 years of Tory government still haven't managed to correct teenagers poor skills. Certainly by 2020 we need to see some improvements.
    That's the problem with literacy and numeracy reform: you don't get to see the effect of policy change for many years. If it's a PISA test, then the children tested will be 15 or 16, meaning they were born around 2000. This means they would have learnt basic reading and maths skills in previous Labour governments.

    We won't see the effects (positive or negative) of Gove's reforms for another five or ten years.

    What we can say is that Blair's and Brown's governments comprehensively failed in this respect. Having said that, so did previous governments.

    Why? IMO parents, not schools, should be teaching the basics. Schools should only be there as a backstop.
  • Options
    Dixie said:

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    That's an astonishing reduction in the size of the London electorate over just four years, which suggests fraud existed on a truly massive and widespread scale previously.
    Yes, massive fraud, perpetrated by Labour and their followers from a certain banana republic.
    The 400,000 is just from London. I wonder what the national figure would be.
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    If Labour is at 31% in opinion polls then they are streets ahead of any other party. They are certainly not dead and buried. That will only happen if Tories can keep to about 39% and UKIP rise. It won't be Tories going to 45%, country is that Tory. If UKIP hits 20% then Labour will suffer. Lib Dems shows no signs of life. Farron is charisma free, no chance. Greens are effign mental. So, only a UKIP rise will dent Labour.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    Dixie said:

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    That's an astonishing reduction in the size of the London electorate over just four years, which suggests fraud existed on a truly massive and widespread scale previously.
    Yes, massive fraud, perpetrated by Labour and their followers from a certain banana republic.
    Not necessarily fraud, just loads of double and tripe-counting, as people move very frequently in big cities, and students were often registered to vote both at home and in the constituency they were living in.

    It will have a significant impact on boundary reviews, though. Hackney and Islington should go down to three seats, for example.

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    Dixie said:

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    Unable to vote or just didn't exist in the first place?

    Individual registration is the only way electoral rolls should be drawn up - simple as that. It is still open to abuse - but far less.
    We don't know but a mix of 'didn't exist' and 'stopped existing years ago' more likely. Person A lives in bedsit. Person A moves to Pakistan. Person B still says Person A lives with them. Person B gets postal vote and votes Labour.
    It's worse than that. Six months later person B moves out, person C moves in and sublets a sofa to person D. Person E is visiting when the form is filled in but they never delete A and B just add all their names to the bottom. Next year activist F is living there with C and he 'makes signatures' for a couple of 'cousins' G and H who live in Pakistan. Now we have a bedsit with eight people registered to vote there!
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    ONS
    To mark #DebtAwarenessWeek we've pulled together facts about debt in Great Britain https://t.co/SiIf2N1vR9 https://t.co/6MlOc0sbDl
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,810

    Mortimer said:

    isam said:

    I keep hearing in the news about Cameron now negotiating for an emergency brake that we have to ask the EC for permission to use and is vague in the usual EC way of life etc etc.....

    If the Leave/s campaign/s are unable to slaughter Cameron's deal when he comes back waving his piece of paper as a "europeace in our time", they are just not up to it. It is farcical.

    Portillo made a good point on This Week last night that to other EU leaders, who are going through the biggest migration crisis they've ever known, which could change the face of their countries in a decade and is leading to social disorder right now, Cameron banging on about "4 years before an EU migrant can claim benefits" is so petty and irrelevant to the current situation it seems like he is taking the piss
    Agreed.

    To be honest, the very modest list of demands Cameron was trying to gain made sense about 18 months ago. Now, it looks pretty weak. I think he has mis-judged this one. Given he is the only Tory PM in my adult life, I see this as a shame.
    You say "weak" ..... I say pathetic.

    It seems that he just wants to close a deal on the EU as soon as possible, any deal that is, with ever reducing demands and expectations and then get the referendum over and done with.

    Well he may be in for a big shock!
    Cameron calculates that the risk of Remain losing is smaller with taking a shit deal to a vote in June with Leave in disarray and most of his cabinet locked up, even if he gets a shellacking in the process, than holding out for an ever-so-slightly-less shit deal in the summer, by which time Leave might have sorted itself out and the migrant exodus could have reached biblical levels.

    Given his political priorities, we know he'll be Remain and he wants out the way asap, it's probably the right calculation but we know now that it won't put the matter to bed.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''It really is impressive pivoting. The only consistency is his target to balance the books within 5 years...somehow. ''

    It's noticeable that number 10 is starting to tiptoe away from Osborne. The rift will widen when George lays a steaming Brownian turd of a budget in March, and asks the party to polish it.
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    People who can't be bothered to register would also not be bothered to vote.

    So whilst there are fewer voters registered, the turnout amongst those who are registered may be higher than would otherwise be the case.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Good point.

    People who can't be bothered to register would also not be bothered to vote.

    So whilst there are fewer voters registered, the turnout amongst those who are registered may be higher than would otherwise be the case.

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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    As I have posted here on a number of occasions..I think the leave vote will be about 57%
  • Options
    We are constantly being told that:

    School and teaching standards are forever improving

    Students are working harder and harder for longer and longer

    GCSE and A Level pass rates are on an ever upward trend

    More and more make it to university, albeit to study useless degrees


    Yet, yet .... numeracy and literacy rates are the worst in the entire developed world.

    Something has evidently gone very seriously wrong in terms of setting standards and maintaining these within our educational system.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,058

    Mortimer said:

    isam said:

    I keep hearing in the news about Cameron now negotiating for an emergency brake that we have to ask the EC for permission to use and is vague in the usual EC way of life etc etc.....

    If the Leave/s campaign/s are unable to slaughter Cameron's deal when he comes back waving his piece of paper as a "europeace in our time", they are just not up to it. It is farcical.

    Portillo made a good point on This Week last night that to other EU leaders, who are going through the biggest migration crisis they've ever known, which could change the face of their countries in a decade and is leading to social disorder right now, Cameron banging on about "4 years before an EU migrant can claim benefits" is so petty and irrelevant to the current situation it seems like he is taking the piss
    Agreed.

    To be honest, the very modest list of demands Cameron was trying to gain made sense about 18 months ago. Now, it looks pretty weak. I think he has mis-judged this one. Given he is the only Tory PM in my adult life, I see this as a shame.
    You say "weak" ..... I say pathetic.

    It seems that he just wants to close a deal on the EU as soon as possible, any deal that is, with ever reducing demands and expectations and then get the referendum over and done with.

    Well he may be in for a big shock!
    Cameron calculates that the risk of Remain losing is smaller with taking a shit deal to a vote in June with Leave in disarray and most of his cabinet locked up, even if he gets a shellacking in the process, than holding out for an ever-so-slightly-less shit deal in the summer, by which time Leave might have sorted itself out and the migrant exodus could have reached biblical levels.

    Given his political priorities, we know he'll be Remain and he wants out the way asap, it's probably the right calculation but we know now that it won't put the matter to bed.
    How is it that the deal Cameron is after / his stance on the EU hasn't changed in the last 6 months or so? What would it take I wonder?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    edited January 2016

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    snip

    snip
    snip.
    The problem is people want social care, demand social care, but do not want to pay for it. They want someone else to pay for it - the tax payer the rate payer - and they demand the right to complain about it as well.
    The first responsibility for the person who needs care is the family of the person who needs care, not me not you not any third party.
    The issue with this is that not everyone has family (e.g. elderly without children) or a family that is equipped to cope (personal care can be extremely demanding and indeed, impossible for say an elderly man with his own health issues looking after his wife with dementia).

    None of us know whether we will be the one's placed in this situation at some point.

    That's why pooling the risk via some kind of social insurance is the answer.
    Yes I agree about pooling of risk. But where that insurance is provided by the state - as opposed to some private insurance where the level of care is determined by the size of the contributions - then there are clearly limits to what that level of care can be. Health and social care is a bottomless pit. We have a health budget and as a nation we simply have to live within it.
    What is wrong is the political opposition to private care and top up insurance - not at all uncommon in other national health services - which would ease the burden on the NHS.
    Having said that I think that current private health care is limited in what it can do and I would support closer integration with the NHS. However I think the cost of such top ups and such private care should not be underestimated.
    http://www.hsj.co.uk/topics/efficiency/how-patients-could-benefit-from-top-up-payments/5046147.fullarticle

    http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/healthinsurance.html
    Yes. If Osborne is determined to reduce tax relief at the higher rate for pension contributions, he could do well to balance it with introduction of tax relief for health insurance, maybe even introduce Corp tax relief on health insurance too, for companies that offer it to all their staff.

    Not only a sensible policy in the face of ever-increasing demand for healthcare, but would have the brilliant added bonus of making the NHS-is-our-religion lefties go absolutely nuts!
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Shit stirring

    Russian Embassy UK
    German government threw their country under feet of migrants like a rug, now try wipe their crimes under carpet. https://t.co/VLFUIguyqk
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    That's still a fair-sized lead for Remain with MORI, albeit narrowing. 57-43%, excluding don't knows. I think the huge lead in June was definitely an outlier.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    As I have posted here on a number of occasions..I think the leave vote will be about 57%

    In a way, you can see why leave campaigns are fighting like rats in a sack. The potential boost for anybody that emerges as leader of leave could be considerable.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,028
    On health, Hunt should absolubtely bring in the new Doctor's contracts and end automatic increases.
    We should also probably increase health and social spending. Unless we're going to start shooting people at 85 then the burden is going only one way. The trick is to increase spending, whilst being tighter than a duck's arse on pay.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Off topic, a good piece on the thinking behind what George Osborne is up to on pensions:

    http://moneyweek.com/merryns-blog/osborne-why-hes-coming-for-more-of-your-pension/#.Vqo7QQkxH00.twitter
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    isamisam Posts: 41,058

    Shit stirring

    Russian Embassy UK
    German government threw their country under feet of migrants like a rug, now try wipe their crimes under carpet. https://t.co/VLFUIguyqk

    Fuelled by this

    "The alleged rape of a 13-year-old Russian-speaking girl in Berlin, supposedly by asylum-seekers, has fuelled anti-migrant protests from Germany's large Russian community.

    But the outrage was sparked by Russia's media propaganda machine. And now the Kremlin is stepping in.

    Thousands of Russian-speakers took to the streets across Germany at the weekend protesting against what they say is a cover-up by police.

    "Our children are in danger," read one banner. "Hands off my child," read another.

    Seven-hundred protesters gathered outside Angela Merkel's chancellery on Saturday and other demonstrations have been held outside asylum-seekers' homes in Berlin and Southern Germany."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-eu-35413134
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    taffys said:

    ''It really is impressive pivoting. The only consistency is his target to balance the books within 5 years...somehow. ''

    It's noticeable that number 10 is starting to tiptoe away from Osborne. The rift will widen when George lays a steaming Brownian turd of a budget in March, and asks the party to polish it.

    Since Osborne did a u turn on tax credits he will be keen to back track on his proposed "living wage" minimum wage increase. Without the tax credit cuts the rationale for a sharp increase in the minimum wage is removed.

    Expect deferral of the "living wage" proposal (or a reduced increase) to stop a consequent rise in unemployment leading up to the 2020 election.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited January 2016

    Shit stirring

    Russian Embassy UK
    German government threw their country under feet of migrants like a rug, now try wipe their crimes under carpet. https://t.co/VLFUIguyqk


    "The review reflects mounting concerns in Washington over Moscow’s determination to exploit European disunity in order to undermine Nato, block US missile defence programmes and revoke the punitive economic sanctions regime imposed after the annexation of Crimea....

    “It really is a new Cold War out there,” the source said, “Right across the EU we are seeing alarming evidence of Russian efforts to unpick the fabric of European unity on a whole range of vital strategic issues.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/12103602/America-to-investigate-Russian-meddling-in-EU.html

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On the electoral register, that 400,000 reduction in London's voter count is a disaster for Labour in seats since that will mostly be in inner London and quite possibly every single notional seat lost by consequential seat count reductions will be a notional Labour seat.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Andrew Neil
    OECD rated English teenagers aged 16 to 19 the worst of 23 developed nations in literacy and 22nd of 23 in numeracy.
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    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    Sandpit said:

    Dixie said:

    Dixie said:

    London electorate is down by 400,000 people since 2012 when population is up 400,000. All down to Individual Voter Registration.

    Voter registration is the simplest thing in the world. And easy to defraud.

    Individual voter registration is also the simplest thing in the world...but harder to defraud.

    The drop offs are probably not real people, or Londoners who never wanted to register.

    A crook would have registered them before and put a cross on their postal vote when it arrives.

    New rules stop fraud, stops ghost voters so stops Labour getting ghost votes.


    But Khan is unhappy:


    Morning Star (Main), 28/01/2016, p.3, Unattributed
    Due to Tory voter registration changes, almost 400,000 Londoners will be unable to vote in the London mayoral election. The London Assembly announced that 5.5 million people are registered to vote in the poll on May 5, a reduction of 394,000 since the last election in 2012. Sadiq Khan said: "Time and again, the Tories were warned that their policies would lead to thousands of Londoners losing their vote".

    This gives Zac a couple of percent I believe.

    Unable to vote or just didn't exist in the first place?

    Individual registration is the only way electoral rolls should be drawn up - simple as that. It is still open to abuse - but far less.
    We don't know but a mix of 'didn't exist' and 'stopped existing years ago' more likely. Person A lives in bedsit. Person A moves to Pakistan. Person B still says Person A lives with them. Person B gets postal vote and votes Labour.
    It's worse than that. Six months later person B moves out, person C moves in and sublets a sofa to person D. Person E is visiting when the form is filled in but they never delete A and B just add all their names to the bottom. Next year activist F is living there with C and he 'makes signatures' for a couple of 'cousins' G and H who live in Pakistan. Now we have a bedsit with eight people registered to vote there!
    Yes, spot on. Their Halal fox has been butchered!
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