I heard him speak in 2008 at a fringe Tory conference event when he said the worst thing for eurosceptics to do would be to hold an in/out referendum, and lose it.
We remove all threat of where all that visceral British dissatisfaction of the European project might lead us and can no longer credibly obfuscate, obstruct and block integrationist policies using public opinion as leverage.
Leave should have spent several years building up a mass movement in the country, scoring double-digit leads in the opinion polls first, and then with a charismatic, moderate mainstream leader pressured a Tory PM to reflect the will of the country - and call a referendum.
Just like the groundswell that led to an overwhelming endorsement of Scottish devolution in 1997.
SeanT is right. We are very likely vote to Remain. And, having called our bluff, the EU will start to do OUTRAGEOUS things very quickly.
And we will be able to do precisely nothing about it.
Exactly.
People don't have the option to vote REMAIN, they have the option to vote LEAVE or the option to vote EVERCLOSERUNION.
The 'outrageous' things you predict are actually supported by much of the establishment although they do not have the honesty to say so.
Just as the vote for the 'Common Market' in 1975 was used as justification for a generation of Ever Closer Union the intention is that this vote will be used as justification for another generation of Ever Closer Union.
You're being deliberately absurd. In 1975 we were voting fit a treaty with the words "ever closer union" in it. We then had our Parliament spend the next 40 years approve treaty after treaty.
Today we are having a negotiation with the words "no ever closer union" and the principle now that future treaties require Referenda to pass.
Thank you all for the welcome. I haven't posted before because I'm normally catching up a thread or two behind and someone else has made the comment I wanted to...
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I quite agree, and welcome.
Just as a matter of interest, are you, in fact, a Physics teacher?
But why use a timer? It'd be a self powered bomb. You could plant it hours before and be two hundred miles away assuming you know when the driver is in bed or at work.
Maybe the several hundred hours of true crime and forensic TV watching is showing here
*If* it was rigged (and we are getting very much into guesswork here), then it might just have been a timer. There are many ways of triggering explosives, as there are for home-made explosives to go 'bang' of their own volition.
There was a rumour the day it happened that the bomb squad attended. Also that people (passengers?) ran from the car. No idea if either rumour's true, so add them to the rumour-list.
I heard him speak in 2008 at a fringe Tory conference event when he said the worst thing for eurosceptics to do would be to hold an in/out referendum, and lose it.
We remove all threat of where all that visceral British dissatisfaction of the European project might lead us and can no longer credibly obfuscate, obstruct and block integrationist policies using public opinion as leverage.
Leave should have spent several years building up a mass movement in the country, scoring double-digit leads in the opinion polls first, and then with a charismatic, moderate mainstream leader pressured a Tory PM to reflect the will of the country - and call a referendum.
Just like the groundswell that led to an overwhelming endorsement of Scottish devolution in 1997.
SeanT is right. We are very likely vote to Remain. And, having called our bluff, the EU will start to do OUTRAGEOUS things very quickly.
And we will be able to do precisely nothing about it.
Exactly.
People don't have the option to vote REMAIN, they have the option to vote LEAVE or the option to vote EVERCLOSERUNION.
The 'outrageous' things you predict are actually supported by much of the establishment although they do not have the honesty to say so.
Just as the vote for the 'Common Market' in 1975 was used as justification for a generation of Ever Closer Union the intention is that this vote will be used as justification for another generation of Ever Closer Union.
You're being deliberately absurd. In 1975 we were voting fit a treaty with the words "ever closer union" in it. We then had our Parliament spend the next 40 years approve treaty after treaty.
Today we are having a negotiation with the words "no ever closer union" and the principle now that future treaties require Referenda to pass.
Yeah that's the exact same thing #rolleyes
And as usual you deliberately ignore that Ever Closure Union can be brought about without official treaties but by slices here and concessions there.
Did Blair giving away the UK Rebate require a treaty ?
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
It's the biggest constitutional decision of the last 50 years - if you're not sure about voting Remain do your own research.
I'm just surprised that anyone still thinks 'Remain' is some sort of staying in 3rd gear safe option. I wonder whether that's what voters in 1975 thought. Little did they realise the utter disaster they were voting for.
The last 40 years have been pretty good tbh. What "utter disaster" have we suffered?
LG83 probably thinks it's a disaster we're not being led by Putin ...
A question: would posters prefer to live as a working-class person in 1975, or today?
(l'm not claiming that the changes have been directly, or even indirectly, due to the EU).
On the whole I'd choose 1975. Not so many gadgets and likely to die a lot younger (I'd probably have died from my Kidney problems) but more community, more jobs, affordable housing, less worries about children's futures, cheap (well at least affordable) beer and fags, and no vague sense of guilt.
I cannot say for being a working class man in 75, but I am pretty certain it was better being a middle class 10 year old in 75, than now.
I had a lovely time, lots of playing outdoors free to roam, fewer electronic gadgets to distract. Great music and good times. I am not at all sure that things are better for 10 year olds now.
If one is going to plant a bomb to destroy a car and its occupant then the simple Tupperware container, held on with magnets. and a mercury tilt switch (as per the Dog House murder) is the best and probably only viable option. Anything else requires having private access to the vehicle for some time in order to tamper with wiring etc..
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
It's the biggest constitutional decision of the last 50 years - if you're not sure about voting Remain do your own research.
I'm just surprised that anyone still thinks 'Remain' is some sort of staying in 3rd gear safe option. I wonder whether that's what voters in 1975 thought. Little did they realise the utter disaster they were voting for.
The last 40 years have been pretty good tbh. What "utter disaster" have we suffered?
LG83 probably thinks it's a disaster we're not being led by Putin ...
A question: would posters prefer to live as a working-class person in 1975, or today?
(l'm not claiming that the changes have been directly, or even indirectly, due to the EU).
A better question is would you prefer to live in how 2016 was predicted to be in 1975 or what 2016 actually is.
What were the predictions in 1975? And wouldn't there have been a whole diverse range of them, so it just becomes a case of picking whichever prediction suits your purpose?
In the same way, your view of what the UK will be like in 2055 might be very different from mine.
Indeed.
But likewise the comparison of different eras depends on the viewpoint.
You or I comparing 1975 to 2016 do so from the perspective of 2016. HL is able to compare 1975 from the viewpoint of 1975 to 2016 from the viewpoint of 2016.
I cannot say for being a working class man in 75, but I am pretty certain it was better being a middle class 10 year old in 75, than now.
I had a lovely time, lots of playing outdoors free to roam, fewer electronic gadgets to distract. Great music and good times. I am not at all that things are better for 10 year olds now.
I was also 10 in 1975. Though I also had a lovely time, I do remember feeling that Britain was terminally crap at everything. We didn't qualify for World Cups, our cars had stupid square steering wheels and were made (or rather not made) by workers who were always on strike, our Prime Minister smoked a pipe. I did find the 80s a welcome surprise.
I heard him speak in 2008 at a fringe Tory conference event when he said the worst thing for eurosceptics to do would be to hold an in/out referendum, and lose it.
We remove all threat of where all that visceral British dissatisfaction of the European project might lead us and can no longer credibly obfuscate, obstruct and block integrationist policies using public opinion as leverage.
Leave should have spent several years building up a mass movement in the country, scoring double-digit leads in the opinion polls first, and then with a charismatic, moderate mainstream leader pressured a Tory PM to reflect the will of the country - and call a referendum.
Just like the groundswell that led to an overwhelming endorsement of Scottish devolution in 1997.
SeanT is right. We are very likely vote to Remain. And, having called our bluff, the EU will start to do OUTRAGEOUS things very quickly.
And we will be able to do precisely nothing about it.
Exactly.
People don't have the option to vote REMAIN, they have the option to vote LEAVE or the option to vote EVERCLOSERUNION.
The 'outrageous' things you predict are actually supported by much of the establishment although they do not have the honesty to say so.
Just as the vote for the 'Common Market' in 1975 was used as justification for a generation of Ever Closer Union the intention is that this vote will be used as justification for another generation of Ever Closer Union.
You're being deliberately absurd. In 1975 we were voting fit a treaty with the words "ever closer union" in it. We then had our Parliament spend the next 40 years approve treaty after treaty.
Today we are having a negotiation with the words "no ever closer union" and the principle now that future treaties require Referenda to pass.
Yeah that's the exact same thing #rolleyes
The actual question in 1975:
' Do you think that the United Kingdom should remain part of the European Community (the Common Market)? '
No mention of Ever Closer Union there.
And yet that was the European dynamic for the next generation.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I like the analogy of PB.com to a pub with great conversation (or indeed several streams of conversation) that ebb and flow, and you can tune in to or even participate in whichever thread takes your fancy, with other people who are knowledgeable and can come at it from a different angle to your own.
Threads that stay entirely political and "on-topic" are often the rudest and worst-tempered. I think there's an element of male-bonding that happens over sporting discussions, and a humanising process during discussion of cultural taste, travel or personal/health travails, that generates more warmth, or at least respect, between posters. There are lots of posters on here that I genuinely like as people, without ever having met, even though our political views are far from alignment. Without some of that social glue, we do tend to get more vituperative.
In terms of how much discussion at PoliticalBetting.com stays on topic, I think there is enough below-the-line politicking but I'd rather there were more betting talk - I think the discussion of betting value can really concentrate minds and removes the ideological edge. Not everyone here bets, though.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
Here, here.
Can someone settle once and for all whether it is meant to be "hear, hear" or "here, here"? My personal inclination is towards the former, on logical sense grounds, but if "description not prescription" is the watchword, then I imagine it's at least a close run thing with the latter.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
It's the biggest constitutional decision of the last 50 years - if you're not sure about voting Remain do your own research.
I'm just surprised that anyone still thinks 'Remain' is some sort of staying in 3rd gear safe option. I wonder whether that's what voters in 1975 thought. Little did they realise the utter disaster they were voting for.
The last 40 years have been pretty good tbh. What "utter disaster" have we suffered?
LG83 probably thinks it's a disaster we're not being led by Putin ...
A question: would posters prefer to live as a working-class person in 1975, or today?
(l'm not claiming that the changes have been directly, or even indirectly, due to the EU).
On the whole I'd choose 1975. Not so many gadgets and likely to die a lot younger (I'd probably have died from my Kidney problems) but more community, more jobs, affordable housing, less worries about children's futures, cheap (well at least affordable) beer and fags, and no vague sense of guilt.
I cannot say for being a working class man in 75, but I am pretty certain it was better being a middle class 10 year old in 75, than now.
I had a lovely time, lots of playing outdoors free to roam, fewer electronic gadgets to distract. Great music and good times. I am not at all sure that things are better for 10 year olds now.
You might have started a reverse Monty Python Yorkshiremen sketch.
Threads that stay entirely political and "on-topic" are often the rudest and worst-tempered. I think there's an element of male-bonding that happens over sporting discussions, and a humanising process during discussion of cultural taste, travel or personal/health travails, that generates more warmth, or at least respect, between posters. There are lots of posters on here that I genuinely like as people, without ever having met, even though our political views are far from alignment. Without some of that social glue, we do tend to get more vituperative.
In terms of how much discussion at PoliticalBetting.com stays on topic, I think there is enough below-the-line politicking but I'd rather there were more betting talk - I think the discussion of betting value can really concentrate minds and removes the ideological edge. Not everyone here bets, though.
I agree with all of that.
It's strange how betting even a small sum makes you look at something quite differently. At least, that's true for me. I think it's because it taps into the competitive urge not to lose and that (temporarily, maybe) drowns out the voices that just reinforce your own point of view.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I quite agree, and welcome.
Just as a matter of interest, are you, in fact, a Physics teacher?
Yes
A noble profession and in short supply, I believe.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
It's the biggest constitutional decision of the last 50 years - if you're not sure about voting Remain do your own research.
I'm just surprised that anyone still thinks 'Remain' is some sort of staying in 3rd gear safe option. I wonder whether that's what voters in 1975 thought. Little did they realise the utter disaster they were voting for.
The last 40 years have been pretty good tbh. What "utter disaster" have we suffered?
LG83 probably thinks it's a disaster we're not being led by Putin ...
A question: would posters prefer to live as a working-class person in 1975, or today?
(l'm not claiming that the changes have been directly, or even indirectly, due to the EU).
On the whole I'd choose 1975. Not so many gadgets and likely to die a lot younger (I'd probably have died from my Kidney problems) but more community, more jobs, affordable housing, less worries about children's futures, cheap (well at least affordable) beer and fags, and no vague sense of guilt.
I cannot say for being a working class man in 75, but I am pretty certain it was better being a middle class 10 year old in 75, than now.
I had a lovely time, lots of playing outdoors free to roam, fewer electronic gadgets to distract. Great music and good times. I am not at all sure that things are better for 10 year olds now.
Kids like the electronic distractions, they roam on the internet - I don't really see how the things they choose to do differently mean things were better or worse in one time or the other. The kids can still play outdoors if they want. Whether things are better or worse I would think, if one could even calculate such a thing, be about the opportunities they have available surely? Not whether we think young people today are wasting their time on less awesome things than back in the day.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
Here, here.
Can someone settle once and for all whether it is meant to be "hear, hear" or "here, here"? My personal inclination is towards the former, on logical sense grounds, but if "description not prescription" is the watchword, then I imagine it's at least a close run thing with the latter.
As someone who has also wanted to settle that question, I can only say 'Hear here'.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
Here, here.
Can someone settle once and for all whether it is meant to be "hear, hear" or "here, here"? My personal inclination is towards the former, on logical sense grounds, but if "description not prescription" is the watchword, then I imagine it's at least a close run thing with the latter.
It should be 'hear, hear' judging from what I've read online. It was my mis-typing. Heavy night.
I would agree with the conclusion of this article if I was sure the phone polls were correct. There's no reason to assume that, though, is there? It's quite possible that Leave is already in a better position than Indy-Yes finished in.
Leadership is a real problem for Leave and Farage could throw it away for them. On the other hand they have some major strengths:
* background dislike of the EU * events are very likely to work to Leave's advantage
But the dyamics are the opposite. Remain will gather momentum once Cameron and co have a basis to campaign on. They will also have a leader. Leave, by contrast, will still be arguing among themselves. It's 1975 all over again.
I wake up today to an article from Mr Herdson that seems logical and reasonable. But it is built on the sand that is our polling industry. We had in recent years polls that overall had but one conclusion. No Conservative majority. Problem was those polls had:- 1. Too many Labour supporters, too many young (Who also favour Remain) 2. Too few older voters and too few Conservatives. (Who also favour Leave)
Anyone spot the problem?
The piece doesn't mention the polls. It's all about the dynamics of the campaign between here and the vote - probably June if Cameron has any sense.
The polls dominate the top space of the article!!!!! Of course they influence people's reading.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I like the analogy of PB.com to a pub with great conversation (or indeed several streams of conversation) that ebb and flow, and you can tune in to or even participate in whichever thread takes your fancy, with other people who are knowledgeable and can come at it from a different angle to your own.
Threads that stay entirely political and "on-topic" are often the rudest and worst-tempered. I think there's an element of male-bonding that happens over sporting discussions, and a humanising process during discussion of cultural taste, travel or personal/health travails, that generates more warmth, or at least respect, between posters. There are lots of posters on here that I genuinely like as people, without ever having met, even though our political views are far from alignment. Without some of that social glue, we do tend to get more vituperative.
In terms of how much discussion at PoliticalBetting.com stays on topic, I think there is enough below-the-line politicking but I'd rather there were more betting talk - I think the discussion of betting value can really concentrate minds and removes the ideological edge. Not everyone here bets, though.
I was inspired by pb to put my first and only political bet on Balls retaining his seat - in the 2010 election. I then realised I had lost the log on details to the account...
But why use a timer? It'd be a self powered bomb. You could plant it hours before and be two hundred miles away assuming you know when the driver is in bed or at work.
Maybe the several hundred hours of true crime and forensic TV watching is showing here
*If* it was rigged (and we are getting very much into guesswork here), then it might just have been a timer. There are many ways of triggering explosives, as there are for home-made explosives to go 'bang' of their own volition.
There was a rumour the day it happened that the bomb squad attended. Also that people (passengers?) ran from the car. No idea if either rumour's true, so add them to the rumour-list.
Because the person who created the bomb only knew how to create a timer?
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
Here, here.
Can someone settle once and for all whether it is meant to be "hear, hear" or "here, here"? My personal inclination is towards the former, on logical sense grounds, but if "description not prescription" is the watchword, then I imagine it's at least a close run thing with the latter.
As someone who has also wanted to settle that question, I can only say 'Hear here'.
On-topic again, I think timing is critical. If Cameron can wrap it up next month and hold the referendum in June then I agree that Remain would be a strong favourite at that point. Big if though. The further into the future we go the better chance Leave has.
I heard him speak in 2008 at a fringe Tory conference event when he said the worst thing for eurosceptics to do would be to hold an in/out referendum, and lose it.
We remove all threat of where all that visceral British dissatisfaction of the European project might lead us and can no longer credibly obfuscate, obstruct and block integrationist policies using public opinion as leverage.
Leave should have spent several years building up a mass movement in the country, scoring double-digit leads in the opinion polls first, and then with a charismatic, moderate mainstream leader pressured a Tory PM to reflect the will of the country - and call a referendum.
Just like the groundswell that led to an overwhelming endorsement of Scottish devolution in 1997.
SeanT is right. We are very likely vote to Remain. And, having called our bluff, the EU will start to do OUTRAGEOUS things very quickly.
And we will be able to do precisely nothing about it.
Exactly.
People don't have the option to vote REMAIN, they have the option to vote LEAVE or the option to vote EVERCLOSERUNION.
The 'outrageous' things you predict are actually supported by much of the establishment although they do not have the honesty to say so.
Just as the vote for the 'Common Market' in 1975 was used as justification for a generation of Ever Closer Union the intention is that this vote will be used as justification for another generation of Ever Closer Union.
You're being deliberately absurd. In 1975 we were voting fit a treaty with the words "ever closer union" in it. We then had our Parliament spend the next 40 years approve treaty after treaty.
Today we are having a negotiation with the words "no ever closer union" and the principle now that future treaties require Referenda to pass.
Yeah that's the exact same thing #rolleyes
Sorry but this is incredibly naive. All the treaties currently in force include the principle of Ever Closer Union. Cameron's negotiations will not result in a treaty which revokes all the previous treaties and as such the commitment to Ever Closer Union will still exist as a basic principle of the EU. The ECJ interprets disputes on the basis of the treaties, not some unenforceable half arsed negotiation carried out by one member. As such they will continue to use the principle of Ever Closer Union as a basic guide when settling disputes.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I like the analogy of PB.com to a pub with great conversation (or indeed several streams of conversation) that ebb and flow, and you can tune in to or even participate in whichever thread takes your fancy, with other people who are knowledgeable and can come at it from a different angle to your own.
Threads that stay entirely political and "on-topic" are often the rudest and worst-tempered. I think there's an element of male-bonding that happens over sporting discussions, and a humanising process during discussion of cultural taste, travel or personal/health travails, that generates more warmth, or at least respect, between posters. There are lots of posters on here that I genuinely like as people, without ever having met, even though our political views are far from alignment. Without some of that social glue, we do tend to get more vituperative.
In terms of how much discussion at PoliticalBetting.com stays on topic, I think there is enough below-the-line politicking but I'd rather there were more betting talk - I think the discussion of betting value can really concentrate minds and removes the ideological edge. Not everyone here bets, though.
I was inspired by pb to put my first and only political bet on Balls retaining his seat - in the 2010 election. I then realised I had lost the log on details to the account...
Perhaps that was a good thing, otherwise you might have followed up with the same bet in 2015?
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I like the analogy of PB.com to a pub with great conversation (or indeed several streams of conversation) that ebb and flow, and you can tune in to or even participate in whichever thread takes your fancy, with other people who are knowledgeable and can come at it from a different angle to your own.
Threads that stay entirely political and "on-topic" are often the rudest and worst-tempered. I think there's an element of male-bonding that happens over sporting discussions, and a humanising process during discussion of cultural taste, travel or personal/health travails, that generates more warmth, or at least respect, between posters. There are lots of posters on here that I genuinely like as people, without ever having met, even though our political views are far from alignment. Without some of that social glue, we do tend to get more vituperative.
In terms of how much discussion at PoliticalBetting.com stays on topic, I think there is enough below-the-line politicking but I'd rather there were more betting talk - I think the discussion of betting value can really concentrate minds and removes the ideological edge. Not everyone here bets, though.
I was inspired by pb to put my first and only political bet on Balls retaining his seat - in the 2010 election. I then realised I had lost the log on details to the account...
I cannot say for being a working class man in 75, but I am pretty certain it was better being a middle class 10 year old in 75, than now.
I had a lovely time, lots of playing outdoors free to roam, fewer electronic gadgets to distract. Great music and good times. I am not at all that things are better for 10 year olds now.
I was also 10 in 1975. Though I also had a lovely time, I do remember feeling that Britain was terminally crap at everything. We didn't qualify for World Cups, our cars had stupid square steering wheels and were made (or rather not made) by workers who were always on strike, our Prime Minister smoked a pipe. I did find the 80s a welcome surprise.
I cannot say for being a working class man in 75, but I am pretty certain it was better being a middle class 10 year old in 75, than now.
I had a lovely time, lots of playing outdoors free to roam, fewer electronic gadgets to distract. Great music and good times. I am not at all that things are better for 10 year olds now.
I was also 10 in 1975. Though I also had a lovely time, I do remember feeling that Britain was terminally crap at everything. We didn't qualify for World Cups, our cars had stupid square steering wheels and were made (or rather not made) by workers who were always on strike, our Prime Minister smoked a pipe. I did find the 80s a welcome surprise.
Careful! Scotland qualified in 1974 and 78.
True, and I was young enough to do the support-the-Scots-instead-of-England thing. Jesus, the nonsense one thinks of as a child.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I quite agree, and welcome.
Just as a matter of interest, are you, in fact, a Physics teacher?
Yes
A noble profession and in short supply, I believe.
Mostly because many schools teach 'science' to KS3 (that's Years 7-9 or ages 11 to 14 for those of you not teachers) and most Physicists are not exactly confident when teaching biology. I am lucky to be at a school that teaches separate sciences from the start.
There is also the fact that if you have a Physics degree you can probably earn a lot more by doing something other than teaching. I like the holidays though.
I cannot say for being a working class man in 75, but I am pretty certain it was better being a middle class 10 year old in 75, than now.
I had a lovely time, lots of playing outdoors free to roam, fewer electronic gadgets to distract. Great music and good times. I am not at all that things are better for 10 year olds now.
I was also 10 in 1975. Though I also had a lovely time, I do remember feeling that Britain was terminally crap at everything. We didn't qualify for World Cups, our cars had stupid square steering wheels and were made (or rather not made) by workers who were always on strike, our Prime Minister smoked a pipe. I did find the 80s a welcome surprise.
Britain was regarded as a joke in 1975, the next year having to beg for a loan from the IMF. A result of the Labour Government. Simply an awful time economically. Me it was good as I was 16 and having fun, I would have had even more fun if 16 in 2016.
I know you're pulling my leg, but why over complicate your method? Bombs can be self powered like a car one, or proximity using a garage door opener or long distance using a mobile. Who uses a timer nowadays?
But why use a timer? It'd be a self powered bomb. You could plant it hours before and be two hundred miles away assuming you know when the driver is in bed or at work.
Maybe the several hundred hours of true crime and forensic TV watching is showing here
*If* it was rigged (and we are getting very much into guesswork here), then it might just have been a timer. There are many ways of triggering explosives, as there are for home-made explosives to go 'bang' of their own volition.
There was a rumour the day it happened that the bomb squad attended. Also that people (passengers?) ran from the car. No idea if either rumour's true, so add them to the rumour-list.
Because the person who created the bomb only knew how to create a timer?
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I like the analogy of PB.com to a pub with great conversation (or indeed several streams of conversation) that ebb and flow, and you can tune in to or even participate in whichever thread takes your fancy, with other people who are knowledgeable and can come at it from a different angle to your own.
Threads that stay entirely political and "on-topic" are often the rudest and worst-tempered. I think there's an element of male-bonding that happens over sporting discussions, and a humanising process during discussion of cultural taste, travel or personal/health travails, that generates more warmth, or at least respect, between posters. There are lots of posters on here that I genuinely like as people, without ever having met, even though our political views are far from alignment. Without some of that social glue, we do tend to get more vituperative.
In terms of how much discussion at PoliticalBetting.com stays on topic, I think there is enough below-the-line politicking but I'd rather there were more betting talk - I think the discussion of betting value can really concentrate minds and removes the ideological edge. Not everyone here bets, though.
I was inspired by pb to put my first and only political bet on Balls retaining his seat - in the 2010 election. I then realised I had lost the log on details to the account...
Perhaps that was a good thing, otherwise you might have followed up with the same bet in 2015?
It was a bit of a win-win bet: if he held on I got the money, if he lost then Ed Balls was out of Parliament.
If I do start betting again then I think betting against what you want to happen (almost as insurance) is a good strategy. How do those who regularly bet feel?
I know you're pulling my leg, but why over complicate your method? Bombs can be self powered like a car one, or proximity using a garage door opener or long distance using a mobile. Who uses a timer nowadays?
You seem extremely well-informed about this subject. I'm beginning to worry about visiting this site now
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I like the analogy of PB.com to a pub with great conversation (or indeed several streams of conversation) that ebb and flow, and you can tune in to or even participate in whichever thread takes your fancy, with other people who are knowledgeable and can come at it from a different angle to your own.
Threads that stay entirely political and "on-topic" are often the rudest and worst-tempered. I think there's an element of male-bonding that happens over sporting discussions, and a humanising process during discussion of cultural taste, travel or personal/health travails, that generates more warmth, or at least respect, between posters. There are lots of posters on here that I genuinely like as people, without ever having met, even though our political views are far from alignment. Without some of that social glue, we do tend to get more vituperative.
In terms of how much discussion at PoliticalBetting.com stays on topic, I think there is enough below-the-line politicking but I'd rather there were more betting talk - I think the discussion of betting value can really concentrate minds and removes the ideological edge. Not everyone here bets, though.
I was inspired by pb to put my first and only political bet on Balls retaining his seat - in the 2010 election. I then realised I had lost the log on details to the account...
I was inspired by pb to put my first and only political bet on Balls retaining his seat - in the 2010 election. I then realised I had lost the log on details to the account...
Perhaps that was a good thing, otherwise you might have followed up with the same bet in 2015?
It was a bit of a win-win bet: if he held on I got the money, if he lost then Ed Balls was out of Parliament.
If I do start betting again then I think betting against what you want to happen (almost as insurance) is a good strategy. How do those who regularly bet feel?
If I'm just betting on a single outcome then I absolutely dislike betting on the one I want to happen. However, I think the most fun in betting is to try to set up a particular market so that you will win whatever the outcome and in that case you probably have to cover the outcome that you actually want.
Edit: when I say "whatever the outcome" you probably have to exclude some. That's part of the entertainment of course.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches,
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I like the analogy of PB.com to a pub with great conversation (or indeed several streams of conversation) that ebb and flow, and you can tune in to or even participate in whichever thread takes your fancy, with other people who are knowledgeable and can come at it from a different angle
I was inspired by pb to put my first and only political bet on Balls retaining his seat - in the 2010 election. I then realised I had lost the log on details to the account...
Perhaps that was a good thing, otherwise you might have followed up with the same bet in 2015?
It was a bit of a win-win bet: if he held on I got the money, if he lost then Ed Balls was out of Parliament.
If I do start betting again then I think betting against what you want to happen (almost as insurance) is a good strategy. How do those who regularly bet feel?
I have always been of the opinion that you shouldn't bet on what you want to happen as it creates a false assessment of value.
In May I did quite well out of backing Labour seats of 250 or less and also backing the challengers in Lib Dem seats. I missed most of the value in Scotland though. This was despite me being a former Labour party member and current LD member. I didn't like the writing on the wall, but I could see it.
I think that the betting markets often lag what is going on. I still think there is value in a number of Leicester City bets for example. There was value in backing Corbyn right through to the final week.
I bet mostly for amusement. Even though I place bets on and off through the year, my winnings in May were a doubling over all of my stakes, which in turn were about 1% of my after tax income.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
I know you're pulling my leg, but why over complicate your method? Bombs can be self powered like a car one, or proximity using a garage door opener or long distance using a mobile. Who uses a timer nowadays?
You seem extremely well-informed about this subject. I'm beginning to worry about visiting this site now
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I quite agree, and welcome.
Just as a matter of interest, are you, in fact, a Physics teacher?
Yes
You are a physics teacher, great! I am so glad you came out of the closet as we need more people with scientific background on here, help balance out the engineers and bring some rigour into our discussions. If you don't mind me asking, are you a physical physicist or a mathematical one?
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I like the analogy of PB.com to a pub with great conversation (or indeed several streams of conversation) that ebb and flow, and you can tune in to or even participate in whichever thread takes your fancy, with other people who are knowledgeable and can come at it from a different angle to your own.
In terms of how much discussion at PoliticalBetting.com stays on topic, I think there is enough below-the-line politicking but I'd rather there were more betting talk - I think the discussion of betting value can really concentrate minds and removes the ideological edge. Not everyone here bets, though.
I was inspired by pb to put my first and only political bet on Balls retaining his seat - in the 2010 election. I then realised I had lost the log on details to the account...
We also talk about pussies and shoes.
I skip F1 and TV related posts. Neither interest me, but did get involved in the shoe one...
Sport is very political, but frankly so is everything else. Nearly all human interactions have a political angle, even if not party political.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I like the analogy of PB.com to a pub with great conversation (or indeed several streams of conversation) that ebb and flow, and you can tune in to or even participate in whichever thread takes your fancy, with other people who are knowledgeable and can come at it from a different angle to your own.
In terms of how much discussion at PoliticalBetting.com stays on topic, I think there is enough below-the-line politicking but I'd rather there were more betting talk - I think the discussion of betting value can really concentrate minds and removes the ideological edge. Not everyone here bets, though.
I was inspired by pb to put my first and only political bet on Balls retaining his seat - in the 2010 election. I then realised I had lost the log on details to the account...
We also talk about pussies and shoes.
I skip F1 and TV related posts. Neither interest me, but did get involved in the shoe one...
Sport is very political, but frankly so is everything else. Nearly all human interactions have a political angle, even if not party political.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
It's the biggest constitutional decision of the last 50 years - if you're not sure about voting Remain do your own research.
I'm just surprised that anyone still thinks 'Remain' is some sort of staying in 3rd gear safe option. I wonder whether that's what voters in 1975 thought. Little did they realise the utter disaster they were voting for.
The last 40 years have been pretty good tbh. What "utter disaster" have we suffered?
LG83 probably thinks it's a disaster we're not being led by Putin ...
A question: would posters prefer to live as a working-class person in 1975, or today?
(l'm not claiming that the changes have been directly, or even indirectly, due to the EU).
On the whole I'd choose 1975. Not so many gadgets and likely to die a lot younger (I'd probably have died from my Kidney problems) but more community, more jobs, affordable housing, less worries about children's futures, cheap (well at least affordable) beer and fags, and no vague sense of guilt.
I cannot say for being a working class man in 75, but I am pretty certain it was better being a middle class 10 year old in 75, than now.
I had a lovely time, lots of playing outdoors free to roam, fewer electronic gadgets to distract. Great music and good times. I am not at all sure that things are better for 10 year olds now.
Kids like the electronic distractions, they roam on the internet - I don't really see how the things they choose to do differently mean things were better or worse in one time or the other. The kids can still play outdoors if they want. Whether things are better or worse I would think, if one could even calculate such a thing, be about the opportunities they have available surely? Not whether we think young people today are wasting their time on less awesome things than back in the day.
The big difference between being a child now to a child in 1975 was that in 1975, most children I knew grew up in families in which only one parent had to work. Childcare was not an issue most families had to consider. Nowadays, very few families can afford this luxury.
I know you're pulling my leg, but why over complicate your method? Bombs can be self powered like a car one, or proximity using a garage door opener or long distance using a mobile. Who uses a timer nowadays?
You seem extremely well-informed about this subject. I'm beginning to worry about visiting this site now
The exploding car near Cambridge need not be a bomb (though of course possible). This last week has had 3 terrorist attacks on Westerners in muslim majority countries (Oagadoudou, Djakarta and Istanbul). There seems to be decreasing media interest in these. It is just becoming too routine.
Is this a sign of desperation by the Islamists or of strength? I think probably the former.
10 weeks ago I was at the Sultanhamet tram stop, saw the Blue mosque and ate opposite the Obelisk. I am glad that I saw Istanbul when I did, but I think that I have taken my last holiday in a muslim country for a while.
One of the most surreal internet experiences of the last year was BJO posting on pb live from the Tunisia beach attack.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I quite agree, and welcome.
Just as a matter of interest, are you, in fact, a Physics teacher?
Yes
You are a physics teacher, great! I am so glad you came out of the closet as we need more people with scientific background on here, help balance out the engineers and bring some rigour into our discussions. If you don't mind me asking, are you a physical physicist or a mathematical one?
Mathematical if anything. I read physics at university because I didn't think my maths was good enough to just read that. I then got a Desmond, sort of drifted into teaching, found I enjoyed it and here I am twenty four years later wondering where the time went. It was a bit of a shock this year to find that some of my colleagues were born after I started teaching.
On-topic again, I think timing is critical. If Cameron can wrap it up next month and hold the referendum in June then I agree that Remain would be a strong favourite at that point. Big if though. The further into the future we go the better chance Leave has.
Good afternoon all. The closer we get to the referendum, the more sanguine I become. The EU will have to reform, because the EZ and external pressures (e.g. migration) are putting it under intolerable strain.
I'm hopeful that the whole rotten political edifice will come tumbling down, irrespective of the UK referendum result. The EU is a 20th century hangover from WWII.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I like the analogy of PB.com to a pub with great conversation (or indeed several streams of conversation) that ebb and flow, and you can tune in to or even participate in whichever thread takes your fancy, with other people who are knowledgeable and can come at it from a different angle to your own.
In terms of how much discussion at PoliticalBetting.com stays on topic, I think there is enough below-the-line politicking but I'd rather there were more betting talk - I think the discussion of betting value can really concentrate minds and removes the ideological edge. Not everyone here bets, though.
I was inspired by pb to put my first and only political bet on Balls retaining his seat - in the 2010 election. I then realised I had lost the log on details to the account...
We also talk about pussies and shoes.
I skip F1 and TV related posts. Neither interest me, but did get involved in the shoe one...
Sport is very political, but frankly so is everything else. Nearly all human interactions have a political angle, even if not party political.
We need a thread about whether having the EU referendum just after the Euros would help Remain if England /Wales /NI do well, or Leave if they, er, leave early. And what would the Scots make of all the English success?
I know you're pulling my leg, but why over complicate your method? Bombs can be self powered like a car one, or proximity using a garage door opener or long distance using a mobile. Who uses a timer nowadays?
You seem extremely well-informed about this subject. I'm beginning to worry about visiting this site now
LG83 probably thinks it's a disaster we're not being led by Putin ...
A question: would posters prefer to live as a working-class person in 1975, or today?
(l'm not claiming that the changes have been directly, or even indirectly, due to the EU).
On the whole I'd choose 1975. Not so many gadgets and likely to die a lot younger (I'd probably have died from my Kidney problems) but more community, more jobs, affordable housing, less worries about children's futures, cheap (well at least affordable) beer and fags, and no vague sense of guilt.
I cannot say for being a working class man in 75, but I am pretty certain it was better being a middle class 10 year old in 75, than now.
I had a lovely time, lots of playing outdoors free to roam, fewer electronic gadgets to distract. Great music and good times. I am not at all sure that things are better for 10 year olds now.
Kids like the electronic distractions, they roam on the internet - I don't really see how the things they choose to do differently mean things were better or worse in one time or the other. The kids can still play outdoors if they want. Whether things are better or worse I would think, if one could even calculate such a thing, be about the opportunities they have available surely? Not whether we think young people today are wasting their time on less awesome things than back in the day.
The big difference between being a child now to a child in 1975 was that in 1975, most children I knew grew up in families in which only one parent had to work. Childcare was not an issue most families had to consider. Nowadays, very few families can afford this luxury.
This is an issue that doesn't get much airing: probably because if you come out for a single-earner family model, you're seen as a sexist or fundamentalist. And the Government will always want more workers to boost GDP stats - even if it means subsidizing people employing other people to look after their children.
We (2 parents of which one in work, two young children) just about manage to do it on about £30k pre-tax income, but that is supplemented by Tax Credits, Child Benefit, and the odd bit of help from parents. We managed to buy a reposessed terrace house in a cheap area with interest-free loans from parents for the deposit. If any of those factors weren't in place it would be too difficult financially.
I know you're pulling my leg, but why over complicate your method? Bombs can be self powered like a car one, or proximity using a garage door opener or long distance using a mobile. Who uses a timer nowadays?
You seem extremely well-informed about this subject. I'm beginning to worry about visiting this site now
LG83 probably thinks it's a disaster we're not being led by Putin ...
A question: would posters prefer to live as a working-class person in 1975, or today?
(l'm not claiming that the changes have been directly, or even indirectly, due to the EU).
On the whole I'd choose 1975. Not so many gadgets and likely to die a lot younger (I'd probably have died from my Kidney problems) but more community, more jobs, affordable housing, less worries about children's futures, cheap (well at least affordable) beer and fags, and no vague sense of guilt.
I cannot say for being a working class man in 75, but I am pretty certain it was better being a middle class 10 year old in 75, than now.
I had a lovely time, lots of playing outdoors free to roam, fewer electronic gadgets to distract. Great music and good times. I am not at all sure that things are better for 10 year olds now.
Kids like the electronic
The big difference between being a child now to a child in 1975 was that in 1975, most children I knew grew up in families in which only one parent had to work. Childcare was not an issue most families had to consider. Nowadays, very few families can afford this luxury.
This is an issue that doesn't get much airing: probably because if you come out for a single-earner family model, you're seen as a sexist or fundamentalist. And the Government will always want more workers to boost GDP stats - even if it means subsidizing people employing other people to look after their children.
We (2 parents of which one in work, two young children) just about manage to do it on about £30k pre-tax income, but that is supplemented by Tax Credits, Child Benefit, and the odd bit of help from parents. We managed to buy a reposessed terrace house in a cheap area with interest-free loans from parents for the deposit. If any of those factors weren't in place it would be too difficult financially.
I agree, though probably two parent households matter more than two worker. I think childrens mental health as well as physical health was better as a result.
I suspect that it is still possible to live the 1975 lifestyle on a single 2016 income. No central heating, a single car (if that) no internet or mobile phones, no central heating, holidays camping in Norfolk rather than the Med etc. It is the choices that we make and those materialist baubles are rather lovely. It may make for an interesting experiment.
I know you're pulling my leg, but why over complicate your method? Bombs can be self powered like a car one, or proximity using a garage door opener or long distance using a mobile. Who uses a timer nowadays?
You seem extremely well-informed about this subject. I'm beginning to worry about visiting this site now
I've recently attempted to wear waistcoats occasionally. Sadly, I cannot pull off the look like Simon Baker. I miss The Mentalist - a rare example of a show I think actually successfully retooled itself after its main running plot wrapped up, but they cancelled it anyway.
Re the cat thing, I believe a similar thing happened in an episode of Blindspo, with assassins discussing things on a lost puppy forum thread.
Back on topic, although I am for Leave, the lack of a lead figure to effectively put a simple, widely appealing message cross could hurt, if only because some people will bang on about reasons others don't care about, or get bogged down with lots of 'what happens when we leave' scenarios, whereas Remain can just say 'It's not worth it', and have senior people like the PM backing that view so don't need as many other leaders to put the view.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
I quite agree, and welcome.
Just as a matter of interest, are you, in fact, a Physics teacher?
Yes
You are a physics teacher, great! I am so glad you came out of the closet as we need more people with scientific background on here, help balance out the engineers and bring some rigour into our discussions. If you don't mind me asking, are you a physical physicist or a mathematical one?
Mathematical if anything. I read physics at university because I didn't think my maths was good enough to just read that. I then got a Desmond, sort of drifted into teaching, found I enjoyed it and here I am twenty four years later wondering where the time went. It was a bit of a shock this year to find that some of my colleagues were born after I started teaching.
Bless my soul, you are going to be doubly welcome as a regular contributor on this site. Firstly, as a teacher - education keeps cropping up in discussions and having another practitioner, and one from a STEM subject at that will be very good. Secondly, as someone with mathematics at heart you will be able to help with the "Its near enough and will work" approximators of the engineering school of thought that predominates.
I look forward to your contributions, Mr. Teacher.
Now, it being Saturday, I must away to 1940. Thanks all for some more interesting conversation.
I think Remain will win, but by only 51%-49% or 52%-48% which will keep us in but at the cost of anti EU voters just as bitter as the cybernats. UKIP will then be the natural depository for their votes as the SNP was for Yes voters in Scotland and while UKIP will not make the level of gains the SNP did I could well see them getting up to 20% of the vote at the 2020 election and 5-10 MPs who could potentially have some influence in a hung parliament
Bless my soul, you are going to be doubly welcome as a regular contributor on this site. Firstly, as a teacher - education keeps cropping up in discussions and having another practitioner, and one from a STEM subject at that will be very good. Secondly, as someone with mathematics at heart you will be able to help with the "Its near enough and will work" approximators of the engineering school of thought that predominates.
I look forward to your contributions, Mr. Teacher.
Now, it being Saturday, I must away to 1940. Thanks all for some more interesting conversation.
I may disappoint you on the engineering versus maths front I'm afraid. I spend a lot of time trying to explain the concept of significant figures to students doing multiple maths A-levels and how leaving the answer as a surd means they haven't finished. I also encourage estimation of answers before getting calculators out.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
Fair enough, I just find it irritating & a little self-indulgent.
I know you're pulling my leg, but why over complicate your method? Bombs can be self powered like a car one, or proximity using a garage door opener or long distance using a mobile. Who uses a timer nowadays?
You seem extremely well-informed about this subject. I'm beginning to worry about visiting this site now
I've recently attempted to wear waistcoats occasionally. Sadly, I cannot pull off the look like Simon Baker. I miss The Mentalist - a rare example of a show I think actually successfully retooled itself after its main running plot wrapped up, but they cancelled it anyway.
Re the cat thing, I believe a similar thing happened in an episode of Blindspo, with assassins discussing things on a lost puppy forum thread.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
Fair enough, I just find it irritating & a little self-indulgent.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
Fair enough, I just find it irritating & a little self-indulgent.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
Fair enough, I just find it irritating & a little self-indulgent.
I can understand that, but it seems a bit like going to a test match and complaining that the game is taking too long.
I know you're pulling my leg, but why over complicate your method? Bombs can be self powered like a car one, or proximity using a garage door opener or long distance using a mobile. Who uses a timer nowadays?
You seem extremely well-informed about this subject. I'm beginning to worry about visiting this site now
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I,
Fair enough, I just find it irritating & a little self-indulgent.
The reminder to be vaguely on topic is helpful, I think.
I know you're pulling my leg, but why over complicate your method? Bombs can be self powered like a car one, or proximity using a garage door opener or long distance using a mobile. Who uses a timer nowadays?
You seem extremely well-informed about this subject. I'm beginning to worry about visiting this site now
I've recently attempted to wear waistcoats occasionally. Sadly, I cannot pull off the look like Simon Baker. I miss The Mentalist - a rare example of a show I think actually successfully retooled itself after its main running plot wrapped up, but they cancelled it anyway.
Re the cat thing, I believe a similar thing happened in an episode of Blindspo, with assassins discussing things on a lost puppy forum thread.
Regretfully, though I do not object to them, I'm more for dogs than cats however
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
Fair enough, I just find it irritating & a little self-indulgent.
I can understand that, but it seems a bit like going to a test match and complaining that the game is taking too long.
All I wondered was whether there was a way that the non-political stuff could be flagged in some way so you could skip it. I am a PL ST holder and our fan blog is split into 4;- topics concerning the club, topics concerning other clubs, topics about other sports and any thing else. I generally go on there to see what other fans think about a recent game/ player etc. If I want to know what other fans favourite way of cooking liver is I can go on to the 4th forum and find out. Otherwise I can skip it. I was suggesting something similar might work on here but all the regulars seem to prefer it the way it is, so end of discussion.
On Topic: I am persuadable to vote Leave but nobody is coming close to persuading me with any credible plan so it will be Remain if nothing changes
Off Topic: I skim read this blog frequently and find it irritating that it frequently goes off political topics to discuss the current state of test matches, football scores, films and even how to cook liver. If I wanted to know about those things (I often do) I would go to the sports blogs, film review sites or cookery sites. I doubt people will change so is there any chance that non-political posts could be highlighted in some way so that people like me can just skip over them.
Can I, as someone who has been lurking on pb for years, say how much I disagree with this statement? For me the joy of the site is the way that the conversation meanders across so many diverse topics, combined with the (generally) courteous tone with which posters with widely varying political positions discuss events.
Fair enough, I just find it irritating & a little self-indulgent.
I can understand that, but it seems a bit like going to a test match and complaining that the game is taking too long.
All I wondered was whether there was a way that the non-political stuff could be flagged in some way so you could skip it. I am a PL ST holder and our fan blog is split into 4;- topics concerning the club, topics concerning other clubs, topics about other sports and any thing else. I generally go on there to see what other fans think about a recent game/ player etc. If I want to know what other fans favourite way of cooking liver is I can go on to the 4th forum and find out. Otherwise I can skip it. I was suggesting something similar might work on here but all the regulars seem to prefer it the way it is, so end of discussion.
I take it you are not participating in the PB Fantasy Football competition then... sadly most people are beating TSE currently in that league table.... actually you could join now and probably catch him up...
All I wondered was whether there was a way that the non-political stuff could be flagged in some way so you could skip it. I am a PL ST holder and our fan blog is split into 4;- topics concerning the club, topics concerning other clubs, topics about other sports and any thing else. I generally go on there to see what other fans think about a recent game/ player etc. If I want to know what other fans favourite way of cooking liver is I can go on to the 4th forum and find out. Otherwise I can skip it. I was suggesting something similar might work on here but all the regulars seem to prefer it the way it is, so end of discussion.
Yes, I think most of us see it as a generally pleasant place to hang out with people who share an interest in politics but quite like to unwind sometimes by chatting about something else - sort of the reverse of a pub where people mostly talk about footie but occasionally mention politics. The fact that you can't predict if a thread will be full of political debate or health tips is part of its charm. It can seem a bit cliquey with abbreviations like OGH and running jokes about a threatened Alternative Vote thread but isn't meant to be, and we're always pleased to have fresh blood...
On the subject of the referendum, I think SeanT is right. (Don't tell him I said that.)
In will win this time. But then at some time in the next five to ten years, there will be a proposed level of further integration that no UK government can possible agree to: perhaps an EU army, or something like that. That will provide the spark for the second referendum, at which we will vote Out
Yes, I think most of us see it as a generally pleasant place to hang out with people who share an interest in politics but quite like to unwind sometimes by chatting about something else - sort of the reverse of a pub where people mostly talk about footie but occasionally mention politics. The fact that you can't predict if a thread will be full of political debate or health tips is part of its charm. It can seem a bit cliquey with abbreviations like OGH and running jokes about a threatened Alternative Vote thread but isn't meant to be, and we're always pleased to have fresh blood...
On the subject of the referendum, I think SeanT is right. (Don't tell him I said that.)
In will win this time. But then at some time in the next five to ten years, there will be a proposed level of further integration that no UK government can possible agree to: perhaps an EU army, or something like that. That will provide the spark for the second referendum, at which we will vote Out
I'm not convinced Remain will win even this time.
There are too many undecideds, and a lot will turn on what Cameron negotiates and how strong it is perceived to be, and what safeguards there are to stop another Blair character simply giving it all up again in the future.
On the subject of the referendum, I think SeanT is right. (Don't tell him I said that.)
In will win this time. But then at some time in the next five to ten years, there will be a proposed level of further integration that no UK government can possible agree to: perhaps an EU army, or something like that. That will provide the spark for the second referendum, at which we will vote Out
Add me to that list. Remain's project fear will probably squeak through but the following years of being tied to this low growth bureacracy, will lead to the voters questioning the advice from all those in the Remain camp.
Comments
Today we are having a negotiation with the words "no ever closer union" and the principle now that future treaties require Referenda to pass.
Yeah that's the exact same thing #rolleyes
Maybe the several hundred hours of true crime and forensic TV watching is showing here
Did Blair giving away the UK Rebate require a treaty ?
I had a lovely time, lots of playing outdoors free to roam, fewer electronic gadgets to distract. Great music and good times. I am not at all sure that things are better for 10 year olds now.
But likewise the comparison of different eras depends on the viewpoint.
You or I comparing 1975 to 2016 do so from the perspective of 2016. HL is able to compare 1975 from the viewpoint of 1975 to 2016 from the viewpoint of 2016.
Albeit with the risk of nostalgia.
;-)
' Do you think that the United Kingdom should remain part of the European Community (the Common Market)? '
No mention of Ever Closer Union there.
And yet that was the European dynamic for the next generation.
Threads that stay entirely political and "on-topic" are often the rudest and worst-tempered. I think there's an element of male-bonding that happens over sporting discussions, and a humanising process during discussion of cultural taste, travel or personal/health travails, that generates more warmth, or at least respect, between posters. There are lots of posters on here that I genuinely like as people, without ever having met, even though our political views are far from alignment. Without some of that social glue, we do tend to get more vituperative.
In terms of how much discussion at PoliticalBetting.com stays on topic, I think there is enough below-the-line politicking but I'd rather there were more betting talk - I think the discussion of betting value can really concentrate minds and removes the ideological edge. Not everyone here bets, though.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/jeb-bush-donors-loyalty-217802
It's strange how betting even a small sum makes you look at something quite differently. At least, that's true for me. I think it's because it taps into the competitive urge not to lose and that (temporarily, maybe) drowns out the voices that just reinforce your own point of view.
Apart from the slacktivism indicated by my middle class, generally hypocritical mates on fb, Corbynism is dead in the water.
If it was a bomb, etc, etc ...
Ah look, Corbyn's controversial dividend seizing policy is straight out of this 2014 Seumas Milne Guardian column. https://t.co/8pElG8WI3Y
There is also the fact that if you have a Physics degree you can probably earn a lot more by doing something other than teaching. I like the holidays though.
If I do start betting again then I think betting against what you want to happen (almost as insurance) is a good strategy. How do those who regularly bet feel?
I don't discuss shoes.
We are a very small Venn diagram intersect, but noisy
Edit: when I say "whatever the outcome" you probably have to exclude some. That's part of the entertainment of course.
http://labourlist.org/2016/01/michael-dugher-sets-may-elections-test-for-corbyn/
In May I did quite well out of backing Labour seats of 250 or less and also backing the challengers in Lib Dem seats. I missed most of the value in Scotland though. This was despite me being a former Labour party member and current LD member. I didn't like the writing on the wall, but I could see it.
I think that the betting markets often lag what is going on. I still think there is value in a number of Leicester City bets for example. There was value in backing Corbyn right through to the final week.
I bet mostly for amusement. Even though I place bets on and off through the year, my winnings in May were a doubling over all of my stakes, which in turn were about 1% of my after tax income.
And welcome :-)
On #bbcsp - @EmilyThornberry @Nigel_Farage Ken Clarke, @AlexSalmond @JananGanesh @IsabelOakeshott & @nicholaswatt https://t.co/thpoADaQdc
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3367740/ISIS-using-secret-messages-hidden-pictures-kittens-bombs-groom-recruit-youngsters.html
Sport is very political, but frankly so is everything else. Nearly all human interactions have a political angle, even if not party political.
And Punic wars.
I don't mind anyone discussing their stuff, the odd stuff is often quite diverting.
@bigjohnowls, you were saying about the draw ....
I'm trying to recall which TV show had terrorists using a Persian cat lovers forum to share messages.
Is this a sign of desperation by the Islamists or of strength? I think probably the former.
10 weeks ago I was at the Sultanhamet tram stop, saw the Blue mosque and ate opposite the Obelisk. I am glad that I saw Istanbul when I did, but I think that I have taken my last holiday in a muslim country for a while.
One of the most surreal internet experiences of the last year was BJO posting on pb live from the Tunisia beach attack.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/6865296/Calculators-at-the-ready-this-maths-trick-will-blow-your-mind.html
Chiliconwhat
@Keir_Starmer "we need to fix our gaze on 2020s and 2030s" #fab16
I'm hopeful that the whole rotten political edifice will come tumbling down, irrespective of the UK referendum result. The EU is a 20th century hangover from WWII.
We (2 parents of which one in work, two young children) just about manage to do it on about £30k pre-tax income, but that is supplemented by Tax Credits, Child Benefit, and the odd bit of help from parents. We managed to buy a reposessed terrace house in a cheap area with interest-free loans from parents for the deposit. If any of those factors weren't in place it would be too difficult financially.
I suspect that it is still possible to live the 1975 lifestyle on a single 2016 income. No central heating, a single car (if that) no internet or mobile phones, no central heating, holidays camping in Norfolk rather than the Med etc. It is the choices that we make and those materialist baubles are rather lovely. It may make for an interesting experiment.
Re the cat thing, I believe a similar thing happened in an episode of Blindspo, with assassins discussing things on a lost puppy forum thread.
South Africa, highlights. https://t.co/kcdEcArPcV
Oh well.
I look forward to your contributions, Mr. Teacher.
Now, it being Saturday, I must away to 1940. Thanks all for some more interesting conversation.
That is either the most naive or disingenuous post I have ever read on this site - which is saying something
What? Working class folk aspire to get a mortgage, start a family & move off their council estate?
Tory Bastards. https://t.co/THYQbP7rZN
I also have hats. If only we'd met in a parallel universe
Trump - 27.3%
Cruz - 26.9%
Rubio - 11.9%
Carson - 9.0%
Bush - 4.4%
https://t.co/waaVOVy9ox
A pleasant day to all, time to be off.
Dead lobsters in a tank, cockroaches in the freezer and evolution underway in the coldstores. Ewwwww
In will win this time. But then at some time in the next five to ten years, there will be a proposed level of further integration that no UK government can possible agree to: perhaps an EU army, or something like that. That will provide the spark for the second referendum, at which we will vote Out
This is just more navel gazing.
#fab16 https://t.co/SPWgWIEWuC
There are too many undecideds, and a lot will turn on what Cameron negotiates and how strong it is perceived to be, and what safeguards there are to stop another Blair character simply giving it all up again in the future.
Too early to call at this point.