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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This week’s PB/Polling Matters Podcast puts the focus on UK

SystemSystem Posts: 12,293
edited 2016 15 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This week’s PB/Polling Matters Podcast puts the focus on UKIP with leading academic expert Prof Matt Goodwin

This week’s PB/Polling Matters podcast talks about UKIP and the upcoming EU referendum with Professor Matthew Goodwin of the University of Kent. Goodwin is one of the foremost experts on UKIP and is co-author of ‘Revolt on the Right’ (2015 political book of the year) and the more recently ‘UKIP: Inside the campaign to redraw the map of British politics’.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    first!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,925
    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
  • RaRaRasputinRaRaRasputin Posts: 48
    edited 2016 15
    I have a theory based on absolutely zero evidence that the refugee crisis has, in a roundabout way, taken some of the flack off Eastern European migration. UKIP outers will have to turn the spotlight back on it if they want to win over the WWC in the referendum.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
    Agree - I think Labour's problem (a bit like the Nats) is that its becoming a self-selecting echo chamber

    'Everyone agrees, how could anyone possibly think that?

    Unless they are a Tory, of course!'
  • RaRaRasputinRaRaRasputin Posts: 48
    Anybody watch last night's GOP debate? Trump and Rubio both gunning hard for Cruz. Trump now up to a 35% chance of winning the nom according to Betfair, he's actually going to bleeding do it, ain't he?!
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    https://mobile.twitter.com/britainelects/status/687789226973380608/photo/1

    8% swing to Conservatives as LDs hold Cornwall seat.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
    Of course the Conservative party is holding hands and whistling a happy tune over the EU.

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
    Of course the Conservative party is holding hands and whistling a happy tune over the EU.

    Ooooooh - you mean big beast Grayling shaking the foundations of the party? Somehow it ain't quite W W3
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Interesting model looking at differential voting between the countries of the UK in an EURef.....

    For example, on a uniform 60% turnout, if England voted out 51.5:48.5, for leave, the rUK would need to vote 34.7:65.3 for In to swing the result.....

    http://ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/just-how-much-swing-does-rest-of-uk.html
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    An amusing Alex cartoon in The Daily Telegraph this morning:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/alex/
  • felix said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/britainelects/status/687789226973380608/photo/1

    8% swing to Conservatives as LDs hold Cornwall seat.

    Big personal vote there from retiring councillor, who I think at the end was acting as an independent, yellows will be pleased
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
    Of course the Conservative party is holding hands and whistling a happy tune over the EU.

    There are times that you seem bitterly anti-Conservative rather than pro-UKIP. Is there some backstory that we are not aware of?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    On Europe, patriotism, national security, immigration and "diversity" politics Labour are doing everything wrong.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
    Of course the Conservative party is holding hands and whistling a happy tune over the EU.

    Tis only the Tories that will split down the middle over the EUref. All the other parties are clearly on one side or the other.

    Will being pro EU harm Labour with the WWC? (who are no where near as single minded or "socially conservative" as some on here would claim). Possibly, but the contrary is also quite possible.

    The Leave campaign will be led and dominated by those an the right of British politics who wish to strip away all the social protections that so many C2DE voters depend upon.

    The Trade Unions will campaign for Remain, as will nearly all MPs and Labour members. The Remain campaign is a uniting force within Labour, and is very sellable to the WC (white or otherwise). Indeed it will help redefine what the future of the party is about. It is something for the Corbynites and Kendallites to find common ground over.

    The EU will be seen as an essential social protection by many in a time of Tory hegemony.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
    Agree - I think Labour's problem (a bit like the Nats) is that its becoming a self-selecting echo chamber

    'Everyone agrees, how could anyone possibly think that?

    Unless they are a Tory, of course!'
    Ha Ha Ha, not enough in Scotland for anyone to care what the nasty party think.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    felix said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/britainelects/status/687789226973380608/photo/1

    8% swing to Conservatives as LDs hold Cornwall seat.

    Big personal vote there from retiring councillor, who I think at the end was acting as an independent, yellows will be pleased
    60% is a fairly commanding position. Clearly the Launceston electorate are part of the "metropolitan elite" and not as "socially conservative" as required. I blame the EU and immigrants...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451

    Interesting model looking at differential voting between the countries of the UK in an EURef.....

    For example, on a uniform 60% turnout, if England voted out 51.5:48.5, for leave, the rUK would need to vote 34.7:65.3 for In to swing the result.....

    http://ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/just-how-much-swing-does-rest-of-uk.html

    We could easily see a result like that.

    I see Michael Portillo on the previous thread said we wouldn't Leave even if we voted Leave.
    Whilst I don't literally agree with that i do agree that on a result like that we'd see prevarication and legal challenge.

    It will be the Conservative backbenches that'd try to force the follow through.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,365

    An amusing Alex cartoon in The Daily Telegraph this morning:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/alex/

    When I was doing A-level economics (2001) the advice was not to buy the Halifax as their management was too conservative and profit margins would therefore be too small.

    Their solution was to hire Andy Hornby with a brief to be radical and change the view that Halifax made small profits. By the time he had finished in 2008 he had indeed successfully got rid of those small profit margins. Unfortunately his radicalism had done this by turning them into thumping losses.

    At this point I realised that economists are idiots.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Interesting model looking at differential voting between the countries of the UK in an EURef.....

    For example, on a uniform 60% turnout, if England voted out 51.5:48.5, for leave, the rUK would need to vote 34.7:65.3 for In to swing the result.....

    http://ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/just-how-much-swing-does-rest-of-uk.html

    We could easily see a result like that.

    I see Michael Portillo on the previous thread said we wouldn't Leave even if we voted Leave.
    Whilst I don't literally agree with that i do agree that on a result like that we'd see prevarication and legal challenge.

    It will be the Conservative backbenches that'd try to force the follow through.
    Such a vote would mean Remain narrowly winning, but if a similar split were to occur but shade it for Leave then it would mean the end of the United Kingdom.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Have I seen this #bbcqt audience member somewhere before? https://t.co/9lMkWzMVmu
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    An amusing Alex cartoon in The Daily Telegraph this morning:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/alex/

    When I was doing A-level economics (2001) the advice was not to buy the Halifax as their management was too conservative and profit margins would therefore be too small.

    Their solution was to hire Andy Hornby with a brief to be radical and change the view that Halifax made small profits. By the time he had finished in 2008 he had indeed successfully got rid of those small profit margins. Unfortunately his radicalism had done this by turning them into thumping losses.

    At this point I realised that economists are idiots.
    Chinese investors are panicking sheep at the moment. Theirs is a fairly big stockmarket correction after 18 months of ridiculous bubble. I think some way to drop further, but should be a good year to buy commodities stocks later on for the long term.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    ydoethur said:

    An amusing Alex cartoon in The Daily Telegraph this morning:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/alex/

    When I was doing A-level economics (2001) the advice was not to buy the Halifax as their management was too conservative and profit margins would therefore be too small.

    Their solution was to hire Andy Hornby with a brief to be radical and change the view that Halifax made small profits. By the time he had finished in 2008 he had indeed successfully got rid of those small profit margins. Unfortunately his radicalism had done this by turning them into thumping losses.

    At this point I realised that economists are idiots.
    I always liked Churchill's comment:

    "If you put two economists in a room, you get two opinions, unless
    one of them is Lord Keynes, in which case you get three opinions."
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,274
    re. the EU, the fact that there is a referendum IMO takes the sting out of any division in any party over Leave/Remain.

    re. junior doctors - Fox, could you let me know why there have to be penalties imposed on hospitals for the doctors working too many hours? Can the doctors not self-regulate?

    re. the footie - as an AFC fan I appreciate the pressure put on us by LCFC because there is nothing more dangerous for Arsenal than thinking they are coasting it. We are never more vulnerable than when we are 2-1 up.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,028
    edited 2016 15

    I have a theory based on absolutely zero evidence that the refugee crisis has, in a roundabout way, taken some of the flack off Eastern European migration. UKIP outers will have to turn the spotlight back on it if they want to win over the WWC in the referendum.

    Care to share the working with us, as well as the conclusion?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    Things are really bad when you have the Record promoting the SNP, unheard of.
    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-course-increase-holyrood-majority-7182713
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451

    Interesting model looking at differential voting between the countries of the UK in an EURef.....

    For example, on a uniform 60% turnout, if England voted out 51.5:48.5, for leave, the rUK would need to vote 34.7:65.3 for In to swing the result.....

    http://ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/just-how-much-swing-does-rest-of-uk.html

    We could easily see a result like that.

    I see Michael Portillo on the previous thread said we wouldn't Leave even if we voted Leave.
    Whilst I don't literally agree with that i do agree that on a result like that we'd see prevarication and legal challenge.

    It will be the Conservative backbenches that'd try to force the follow through.
    Such a vote would mean Remain narrowly winning, but if a similar split were to occur but shade it for Leave then it would mean the end of the United Kingdom.
    I don't agree. Show me the 2014 Unionists who would now vote to break up the UK just because it has voted in aggregate to leave the EU?

    This argument most appeals to (and is made the most by) the nationalists who wish to use it as a casus belli for a second referendum.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Rather interesting in a nerdy way

    What % of Europeans use the Internet at least once a week? By region. Southern & Eastern Europe levels are very low https://t.co/ystJpTAHoZ
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    An amusing Alex cartoon in The Daily Telegraph this morning:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/alex/

    When I was doing A-level economics (2001) the advice was not to buy the Halifax as their management was too conservative and profit margins would therefore be too small.

    Their solution was to hire Andy Hornby with a brief to be radical and change the view that Halifax made small profits. By the time he had finished in 2008 he had indeed successfully got rid of those small profit margins. Unfortunately his radicalism had done this by turning them into thumping losses.

    At this point I realised that economists are idiots.
    To be fair to Andy, who is a very nice man, most of the damage was done under Crosby - Andy was handed a ticking timebomb that exploded in his face
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good Morning all.

    HELP!! I see a weenie bit of FROST on the roofs opposite my flat. We're doomed!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
    Of course the Conservative party is holding hands and whistling a happy tune over the EU.

    Tis only the Tories that will split down the middle over the EUref. All the other parties are clearly on one side or the other.

    Will being pro EU harm Labour with the WWC? (who are no where near as single minded or "socially conservative" as some on here would claim). Possibly, but the contrary is also quite possible.

    The Leave campaign will be led and dominated by those an the right of British politics who wish to strip away all the social protections that so many C2DE voters depend upon.

    The Trade Unions will campaign for Remain, as will nearly all MPs and Labour members. The Remain campaign is a uniting force within Labour, and is very sellable to the WC (white or otherwise). Indeed it will help redefine what the future of the party is about. It is something for the Corbynites and Kendallites to find common ground over.

    The EU will be seen as an essential social protection by many in a time of Tory hegemony.

    A lot of those C2DE voters aren't feeling the social protection of having lower wages, or no job at all, and significant social changes in their local communities from the free movement that the EU facilitates.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Callers to out-of-hours GP service faced waits of more than 12 hours, leaked report reveals https://t.co/ytoAZrSzKI https://t.co/uc2ZmfPuv1
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Interesting model looking at differential voting between the countries of the UK in an EURef.....

    For example, on a uniform 60% turnout, if England voted out 51.5:48.5, for leave, the rUK would need to vote 34.7:65.3 for In to swing the result.....

    http://ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/just-how-much-swing-does-rest-of-uk.html

    We could easily see a result like that.

    I see Michael Portillo on the previous thread said we wouldn't Leave even if we voted Leave.
    Whilst I don't literally agree with that i do agree that on a result like that we'd see prevarication and legal challenge.

    It will be the Conservative backbenches that'd try to force the follow through.
    Such a vote would mean Remain narrowly winning, but if a similar split were to occur but shade it for Leave then it would mean the end of the United Kingdom.
    I don't agree. Show me the 2014 Unionists who would now vote to break up the UK just because it has voted in aggregate to leave the EU?

    This argument most appeals to (and is made the most by) the nationalists who wish to use it as a casus belli for a second referendum.
    None of the Unionists will, it's the people who voted No for 'stability' and 'no change' who may change their mind.

    That said I believe the polling shows only about 10% of people think a split EU ref vote would justify a second IndyRef.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    ICYMI Great oops for front pages

    Huge if true... https://t.co/WkqO6Ebe0L
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    malcolmg said:

    Things are really bad when you have the Record promoting the SNP, unheard of.
    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-course-increase-holyrood-majority-7182713

    I wouldn't say they are promoting them but that is a fairly awesome poll for the SNP. I find the idea that the Lib Dems are going to increase their numbers of MSPs very hard to believe but other than that it looks a fairly realistic outcome.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    edited 2016 15
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. K, aye, we had some ice (just a little) on the fields. Meg the dog wandered over [her first time encountering ice], and discovered the creaking when it's about to crack is quite alarming :p

    Edited extra bit: on climate - was amused to hear DiCaprio bleating about the struggle to find cold weather for shooting The Revenant being proof of global warming. Four-five years ago he could've shot that film anywhere in Great Britain.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    TOPPING said:

    re. the EU, the fact that there is a referendum IMO takes the sting out of any division in any party over Leave/Remain.

    re. junior doctors - Fox, could you let me know why there have to be penalties imposed on hospitals for the doctors working too many hours? Can the doctors not self-regulate?

    re. the footie - as an AFC fan I appreciate the pressure put on us by LCFC because there is nothing more dangerous for Arsenal than thinking they are coasting it. We are never more vulnerable than when we are 2-1 up.

    Jr doctors hours are set by the employer, they are not optional or voluntary. So if someone is rostered for the weekend, then the only way they can get out of it is a swap with a colleague. Quite a lot of swaps occur, and on most rotas this is how leave is covered. The only way to work extra unsocial hours is to swap into them with a colleague. I swap weekends to get to home matches too!

    Many rotas have gaps in them due to recruitment and retention problems, and sometimes juniors will do these as Locums in their own department for extra pay. As a rota organiser I find it difficult to cover these gaps and am very grateful for these internal locums. External locums are more expensive, do not know the hospital and we do not know them and their skill set. There is clinical risk, but probably not as much as the risk of not staffing the rota at all.

    The financial penalties are a way of keeping the rotas legal. I have looked at the new contracts implications for my dept. This is not easy as Hunt has been very vague about much of the detail. The main implication is that we will have more rota gaps to fill and fewer staff willing to work internal locums. It is going to be a real headache, and quite likely reduce our weekend staffing of junior doctors. There are not enough reliable locums to fill the gaps.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    I see that @rcs1000 and @Scrapheap_as_was believe that I delight in bad news. Not so. I just face the news as it is.

    For instance today:
    https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/687900476080320512

    and https://twitter.com/breakingmoney/status/687896772958662657
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Interesting model looking at differential voting between the countries of the UK in an EURef.....

    For example, on a uniform 60% turnout, if England voted out 51.5:48.5, for leave, the rUK would need to vote 34.7:65.3 for In to swing the result.....

    http://ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/just-how-much-swing-does-rest-of-uk.html

    We could easily see a result like that.

    I see Michael Portillo on the previous thread said we wouldn't Leave even if we voted Leave.
    Whilst I don't literally agree with that i do agree that on a result like that we'd see prevarication and legal challenge.

    It will be the Conservative backbenches that'd try to force the follow through.
    No Govt will EVER force me to follow through!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,144
    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Except Corbyn is actually relatively eurosceptic in fact arguably more so than Cameron, he is certainly the least pro EU Labour leader since Foot
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
    Of course the Conservative party is holding hands and whistling a happy tune over the EU.

    Tis only the Tories that will split down the middle over the EUref. All the other parties are clearly on one side or the other.

    Will being pro EU harm Labour with the WWC? (who are no where near as single minded or "socially conservative" as some on here would claim). Possibly, but the contrary is also quite possible.

    The Leave campaign will be led and dominated by those an the right of British politics who wish to strip away all the social protections that so many C2DE voters depend upon.

    The Trade Unions will campaign for Remain, as will nearly all MPs and Labour members. The Remain campaign is a uniting force within Labour, and is very sellable to the WC (white or otherwise). Indeed it will help redefine what the future of the party is about. It is something for the Corbynites and Kendallites to find common ground over.

    The EU will be seen as an essential social protection by many in a time of Tory hegemony.

    A lot of those C2DE voters aren't feeling the social protection of having lower wages, or no job at all, and significant social changes in their local communities from the free movement that the EU facilitates.
    Unemployment is at a record low, and many C2DE workers work alongside EU migrants and enjoy their company. Very many do not see them as devils, but rather as valuble workmates.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,144

    Interesting model looking at differential voting between the countries of the UK in an EURef.....

    For example, on a uniform 60% turnout, if England voted out 51.5:48.5, for leave, the rUK would need to vote 34.7:65.3 for In to swing the result.....

    http://ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/just-how-much-swing-does-rest-of-uk.html

    The latest polling from yougov has it 51% 49% In UK wide which suggests 50% 50% In England and maybe Out just ahead outside London. So it could well be Scotland and London keep us in
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. HYUFD, I do wonder whether some Scottish Nationalists might think this is one of the few ways they have a real prospect of getting Referendum 2: Refer Harder.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. K, aye, we had some ice (just a little) on the fields. Meg the dog wandered over [her first time encountering ice], and discovered the creaking when it's about to crack is quite alarming :p

    Edited extra bit: on climate - was amused to hear DiCaprio bleating about the struggle to find cold weather for shooting The Revenant being proof of global warming. Four-five years ago he could've shot that film anywhere in Great Britain.

    Just watched a documentary on the development of the A380, and the chief test pilot is named = Fernando Alonso.

    So wherever he goes, he should use Rolls Royce engines to be successful ;)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. B, one hopes the A380 is more reliable than Alonso's car.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,144

    Mr. HYUFD, I do wonder whether some Scottish Nationalists might think this is one of the few ways they have a real prospect of getting Referendum 2: Refer Harder.

    Indeed it would certainly be the best trigger before 2020 although about a quarter to a third of SNP voters will back Out. Personally though I think it is slightly more likely the UK narrowly votes In and England, at least outside London, votes Out than the UK votes Out and Scotland votes In
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,998
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    An amusing Alex cartoon in The Daily Telegraph this morning:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/alex/

    When I was doing A-level economics (2001) the advice was not to buy the Halifax as their management was too conservative and profit margins would therefore be too small.

    Their solution was to hire Andy Hornby with a brief to be radical and change the view that Halifax made small profits. By the time he had finished in 2008 he had indeed successfully got rid of those small profit margins. Unfortunately his radicalism had done this by turning them into thumping losses.

    At this point I realised that economists are idiots.
    To be fair to Andy, who is a very nice man, most of the damage was done under Crosby - Andy was handed a ticking timebomb that exploded in his face
    But it didn't explode in Hornby's face - he still got his millions.

    It was the shareholders and employees who lost out.

    The Parliamentary report was damning:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-banks-hbos-idUKBRE93319B20130405
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Another interesting podcast - many thanks to Keiran Pedley for what must be a lot of work putting these together.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,882
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Except Corbyn is actually relatively eurosceptic in fact arguably more so than Cameron, he is certainly the least pro EU Labour leader since Foot
    But, he's constrained by his party.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. B, one hopes the A380 is more reliable than Alonso's car.

    I just got an image of a single engine Cessna passing an A380, with all the Airbus passengers looking out the window, and the caption "Zoom".

    Maybe Marf could fix it.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. B, one hopes the A380 is more reliable than Alonso's car.

    Is the Wetherby Whaler still going?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,028

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
    Of course the Conservative party is holding hands and whistling a happy tune over the EU.

    Tis only the Tories that will split down the middle over the EUref. All the other parties are clearly on one side or the other.

    Will being pro EU harm Labour with the WWC? (who are no where near as single minded or "socially conservative" as some on here would claim). Possibly, but the contrary is also quite possible.

    The Leave campaign will be led and dominated by those an the right of British politics who wish to strip away all the social protections that so many C2DE voters depend upon.

    The Trade Unions will campaign for Remain, as will nearly all MPs and Labour members. The Remain campaign is a uniting force within Labour, and is very sellable to the WC (white or otherwise). Indeed it will help redefine what the future of the party is about. It is something for the Corbynites and Kendallites to find common ground over.

    The EU will be seen as an essential social protection by many in a time of Tory hegemony.

    That misunderstands the situation.

    The left have imposed legislative protections, true, but the freedom of movement and large-scale immigration has driven down wages at the bottom end while driving up rents and demand for local services (particularly in places towards the bottom of the scale). Those factors are far more visible than EU directive EU2016/1WTF or whatever.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,274

    TOPPING said:

    re. the EU, the fact that there is a referendum IMO takes the sting out of any division in any party over Leave/Remain.

    re. junior doctors - Fox, could you let me know why there have to be penalties imposed on hospitals for the doctors working too many hours? Can the doctors not self-regulate?

    re. the footie - as an AFC fan I appreciate the pressure put on us by LCFC because there is nothing more dangerous for Arsenal than thinking they are coasting it. We are never more vulnerable than when we are 2-1 up.

    Jr doctors hours are set by the employer, they are not optional or voluntary. So if someone is rostered for the weekend, then the only way they can get out of it is a swap with a colleague. Quite a lot of swaps occur, and on most rotas this is how leave is covered. The only way to work extra unsocial hours is to swap into them with a colleague. I swap weekends to get to home matches too!

    Many rotas have gaps in them due to recruitment and retention problems, and sometimes juniors will do these as Locums in their own department for extra pay. As a rota organiser I find it difficult to cover these gaps and am very grateful for these internal locums. External locums are more expensive, do not know the hospital and we do not know them and their skill set. There is clinical risk, but probably not as much as the risk of not staffing the rota at all.

    The financial penalties are a way of keeping the rotas legal. I have looked at the new contracts implications for my dept. This is not easy as Hunt has been very vague about much of the detail. The main implication is that we will have more rota gaps to fill and fewer staff willing to work internal locums. It is going to be a real headache, and quite likely reduce our weekend staffing of junior doctors. There are not enough reliable locums to fill the gaps.
    Thanks.

    So it sounds like staffing at the weekends under the current situation is problematic. Is not this one of the things that Jeremy Hunt is trying to address when he says a true 7-day NHS, where presumably rota distinctions disappear.

    Or are you saying that regardless, people will try not to work weekends?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
    Of course the Conservative party is holding hands and whistling a happy tune over the EU.

    Tis only the Tories that will split down the middle over the EUref. All the other parties are clearly on one side or the other.

    Will being pro EU harm Labour with the WWC? (who are no where near as single minded or "socially conservative" as some on here would claim). Possibly, but the contrary is also quite possible.

    The Leave campaign will be led and dominated by those an the right of British politics who wish to strip away all the social protections that so many C2DE voters depend upon.

    The Trade Unions will campaign for Remain, as will nearly all MPs and Labour members. The Remain campaign is a uniting force within Labour, and is very sellable to the WC (white or otherwise). Indeed it will help redefine what the future of the party is about. It is something for the Corbynites and Kendallites to find common ground over.

    The EU will be seen as an essential social protection by many in a time of Tory hegemony.

    A lot of those C2DE voters aren't feeling the social protection of having lower wages, or no job at all, and significant social changes in their local communities from the free movement that the EU facilitates.
    Unemployment is at a record low, and many C2DE workers work alongside EU migrants and enjoy their company. Very many do not see them as devils, but rather as valuble workmates.
    And no doubt (complete with tin ear and condescending tone) that's exactly what they'll be told.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,550
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
    Agree - I think Labour's problem (a bit like the Nats) is that its becoming a self-selecting echo chamber

    'Everyone agrees, how could anyone possibly think that?

    Unless they are a Tory, of course!'
    Ha Ha Ha, not enough in Scotland for anyone to care what the nasty party think.
    Aye.

    'Everyone agrees that Ruth Davidson is awesome, how could anyone possibly not think that? '

    Survation leader approval ratings:
    Sturgeon 27
    Harvie 0
    Davidson -6
    Rennie -7
    Dugdale -9
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,028
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    An amusing Alex cartoon in The Daily Telegraph this morning:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/alex/

    When I was doing A-level economics (2001) the advice was not to buy the Halifax as their management was too conservative and profit margins would therefore be too small.

    Their solution was to hire Andy Hornby with a brief to be radical and change the view that Halifax made small profits. By the time he had finished in 2008 he had indeed successfully got rid of those small profit margins. Unfortunately his radicalism had done this by turning them into thumping losses.

    At this point I realised that economists are idiots.
    I always liked Churchill's comment:

    "If you put two economists in a room, you get two opinions, unless
    one of them is Lord Keynes, in which case you get three opinions."
    Although in the case of Keynes, all three would probably be right.

    Keynes has been undermined over the years by a rigid application of his theories (or worse, parts of his theories), in a way he would never have done. He didn't help himself by calling his masterpiece a General Theory but all the same, he was a very dynamic economist, continually working to the data and the circumstances at hand. I find it highly unlikely that he would have prescribed the solutions of the 1930s to the problems of the 2010s.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451

    Another interesting podcast - many thanks to Keiran Pedley for what must be a lot of work putting these together.

    I enjoyed it. Interesting conclusion that the result may be more like the AV referendum that the indyref, and that Cameron's intervention may be decisive (pulling Labour and LD voters closer to his PoV *as well as* Tories)

    I paid particular notice to Matthew Godwin's point (who I respect a lot) that the Paris Attack didn't move the polls at all, and the big issue for undecided voters of the middle class and middle aged voters is less likely to be immigration and more about a credible alternative model.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,550

    Mr. HYUFD, I do wonder whether some Scottish Nationalists might think this is one of the few ways they have a real prospect of getting Referendum 2: Refer Harder.

    William Hague certainly thinks so.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,028

    Interesting model looking at differential voting between the countries of the UK in an EURef.....

    For example, on a uniform 60% turnout, if England voted out 51.5:48.5, for leave, the rUK would need to vote 34.7:65.3 for In to swing the result.....

    http://ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/just-how-much-swing-does-rest-of-uk.html

    We could easily see a result like that.

    I see Michael Portillo on the previous thread said we wouldn't Leave even if we voted Leave.
    Whilst I don't literally agree with that i do agree that on a result like that we'd see prevarication and legal challenge.

    It will be the Conservative backbenches that'd try to force the follow through.
    Such a vote would mean Remain narrowly winning, but if a similar split were to occur but shade it for Leave then it would mean the end of the United Kingdom.
    I don't agree. Show me the 2014 Unionists who would now vote to break up the UK just because it has voted in aggregate to leave the EU?

    This argument most appeals to (and is made the most by) the nationalists who wish to use it as a casus belli for a second referendum.
    Still, it'd answer the currency question. Hello, Euro.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,144
    edited 2016 15
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Except Corbyn is actually relatively eurosceptic in fact arguably more so than Cameron, he is certainly the least pro EU Labour leader since Foot
    But, he's constrained by his party.
    Indeed but he is its public face though most Labour MPs will back In a few like Field and Hoey will back Out
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,028

    Callers to out-of-hours GP service faced waits of more than 12 hours, leaked report reveals https://t.co/ytoAZrSzKI https://t.co/uc2ZmfPuv1

    If the NHS is truly 24/7 - as the doctors were recently arguing - why is there such a concept as 'out of hours'?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Another interesting podcast - many thanks to Keiran Pedley for what must be a lot of work putting these together.

    I enjoyed it. Interesting conclusion that the result may be more like the AV referendum that the indyref, and that Cameron's intervention may be decisive (pulling Labour and LD voters closer to his PoV *as well as* Tories)

    I paid particular notice to Matthew Godwin's point (who I respect a lot) that the Paris Attack didn't move the polls at all, and the big issue for undecided voters of the middle class and middle aged voters is less likely to be immigration and more about a credible alternative model.
    The last point has been my view for some time. While voters think Leave is the bigger risk, Leave campaigners need to address that concern. It may be unfair but life isn't fair.

    So far as I can see, the Paris attacks simply confirmed everyone's prejudices, whatever their pre-existing prejudices happened to be.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. B, Wetherby Whaler?

    Mr. Divvie, ah, yes. Hague's spineless bed-wetting was not an edifying spectacle. If he's wrong, it's a scare tactic.

    If he's right, and Scotland would rather be out of the UK and in the EU, and England/Wales/Northern Ireland would rather be out of the EU, then in what way does it make sense for the UK to be in the EU and Scotland to be in the UK?

    Scotland has the freedom of self-determination (as exercised quite recently). The idea that means the rest of the UK should vote for something they don't want to placate Scots is as mad as the idea Scots should vote for Conservatives because the English don't like the SNP.

    Speaking just for yourself, do you see the appeal of voting Leave to get a second referendum? It's hard to think of another situation that could get another vote in the next few decades.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    edited 2016 15
    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    Things are really bad when you have the Record promoting the SNP, unheard of.
    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-course-increase-holyrood-majority-7182713

    I wouldn't say they are promoting them but that is a fairly awesome poll for the SNP. I find the idea that the Lib Dems are going to increase their numbers of MSPs very hard to believe but other than that it looks a fairly realistic outcome.
    Morning David, not often you ever see a Record story with SNP and they don't have a negative bias on it though, they would normally find issue no matter how good.
    I agree that it is hard to believe that the LibDems can even hold what they have, they are almost extinct , no talent and Willie Rennie is woeful. Their only hope is that some ex Labour will not go for SNP or Tories so they may get a few sympathy votes by default.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    I have been watching BBC World News and they had 4 people sitting round a table doing - of all things - reviewing the newspapers. Why would a 24 hour news network review the press, by definition a news vehicle way behind 24/7 news channels? Truly bizarre.

    - and why can't these people wear ties? They just look scruffy.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,028

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Matthew Goodwin in the Telegraph:

    "Think Labour looks out of touch now? Wait until the EU referendum campaign starts...
    In arguing against Brexit, Labour will alienate precisely the same Eurosceptic working class voters it desperately needs to win back"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12084459/Think-Labour-looks-out-of-touch-now-Wait-until-the-EU-referendum-starts....html

    Good piece. The EU debate is of course only one of many issues where there is a disconnect between the WWC in Labour's heartlands and the university-educated middle class Islington party leadership.
    Agree - I think Labour's problem (a bit like the Nats) is that its becoming a self-selecting echo chamber

    'Everyone agrees, how could anyone possibly think that?

    Unless they are a Tory, of course!'
    Ha Ha Ha, not enough in Scotland for anyone to care what the nasty party think.
    Aye.

    'Everyone agrees that Ruth Davidson is awesome, how could anyone possibly not think that? '

    Survation leader approval ratings:
    Sturgeon 27
    Harvie 0
    Davidson -6
    Rennie -7
    Dugdale -9
    Doesn't that rather prove that the SCons are not that much of a 'hated party'? Or at the minimum, Davidson isn't representative of it?

    The SCons are, as they have been for a long time, polling in the mid-teens. That gives somewhat over 80% of the voting public against the Cons, one way or another. Yet a net rating of -6 implies fairly substantial approval from supporters of other parties, or even more widespread abstentions.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Callers to out-of-hours GP service faced waits of more than 12 hours, leaked report reveals https://t.co/ytoAZrSzKI https://t.co/uc2ZmfPuv1

    If the NHS is truly 24/7 - as the doctors were recently arguing - why is there such a concept as 'out of hours'?
    There isn't if you go to the ER
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. B, A&E.

    Incidentally, if a third strike goes ahead, junior doctors will, apparently, walk out of A&E as well.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. B, Wetherby Whaler?

    I had the impression you were in Harrogate. It's in Wetherby. Best fish and chips anywhere.

    If I'm wrong, I apologize.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,744
    Another excellent podcast.

    Nice to see Matt Goodwin agreeing with me.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,028
    Tim_B said:

    I have been watching BBC World News and they had 4 people sitting round a table doing - of all things - reviewing the newspapers. Why would a 24 hour news network review the press, by definition a news vehicle way behind 24/7 news channels? Truly bizarre.

    - and why can't these people wear ties? They just look scruffy.

    Because the electronic media still have a sense of inferiority vis a vis written-word journalists.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. B, not far wrong (I am in Yorkshire, but not Harrogate).
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. B, A&E.

    Incidentally, if a third strike goes ahead, junior doctors will, apparently, walk out of A&E as well.

    Thanks for the instant translation!

    I assume E is emergency, but am puzzling over the A.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    It'll be interesting to see how many strike today compared to last time. IIRC about half worked as normal.

    Mr. B, A&E.

    Incidentally, if a third strike goes ahead, junior doctors will, apparently, walk out of A&E as well.

  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Tim_B said:

    Mr. B, A&E.

    Incidentally, if a third strike goes ahead, junior doctors will, apparently, walk out of A&E as well.

    Thanks for the instant translation!

    I assume E is emergency, but am puzzling over the A.
    Accident
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. B, not far wrong (I am in Yorkshire, but not Harrogate).

    Give the Wetherby Whaler a try if you like Fish and chips.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451

    Another interesting podcast - many thanks to Keiran Pedley for what must be a lot of work putting these together.

    I enjoyed it. Interesting conclusion that the result may be more like the AV referendum that the indyref, and that Cameron's intervention may be decisive (pulling Labour and LD voters closer to his PoV *as well as* Tories)

    I paid particular notice to Matthew Godwin's point (who I respect a lot) that the Paris Attack didn't move the polls at all, and the big issue for undecided voters of the middle class and middle aged voters is less likely to be immigration and more about a credible alternative model.
    The last point has been my view for some time. While voters think Leave is the bigger risk, Leave campaigners need to address that concern. It may be unfair but life isn't fair.

    So far as I can see, the Paris attacks simply confirmed everyone's prejudices, whatever their pre-existing prejudices happened to be.
    Yes, I think that's true. I want to disagree (which is my classic response when I don't like the conclusion) but you're right.

    The Paris Attacks led to an orgy of confirmation bias.

    From a betting perspective, the 8/1 on Remain at 60-65% looks good, if still available.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    I have been watching BBC World News and they had 4 people sitting round a table doing - of all things - reviewing the newspapers. Why would a 24 hour news network review the press, by definition a news vehicle way behind 24/7 news channels? Truly bizarre.

    - and why can't these people wear ties? They just look scruffy.

    Because the electronic media still have a sense of inferiority vis a vis written-word journalists.
    Not here. You only have to look at yesterday's biased hit piece on Cruz's loans in the NY Times. That was immediately attacked by both CNN and Fox News.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451

    Another excellent podcast.

    Nice to see Matt Goodwin agreeing with me.

    How do you think Leave can propose an alternative model without it dividing the movement and being shot to pieces?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,744
    I'm not sure if this is paywalled or not but Marcus Roberts has done an analysis on the upcoming locals

    Forget losing seats, Labour should make 300 gains in May’s elections

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/redbox/topic/corbyns-labour/forget-losing-seats-labour-should-make-300-gains-in-mays-elections
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Tim_B said:

    I have been watching BBC World News and they had 4 people sitting round a table doing - of all things - reviewing the newspapers. Why would a 24 hour news network review the press, by definition a news vehicle way behind 24/7 news channels? Truly bizarre.

    - and why can't these people wear ties? They just look scruffy.

    Because the electronic media still have a sense of inferiority vis a vis written-word journalists.
    Yes this is really bizarre. Maybe it's because words spoken disappear in the air and are by essence ephemeral, whereas the written word is there in black and white for all to see.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Tim_B said:

    Mr. B, not far wrong (I am in Yorkshire, but not Harrogate).

    Give the Wetherby Whaler a try if you like Fish and chips.
    The Wetherby Whaler is achain - there's one on the old Harry Ramsden's site in Guiseley
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Wanderer said:

    Tim_B said:

    Mr. B, A&E.

    Incidentally, if a third strike goes ahead, junior doctors will, apparently, walk out of A&E as well.

    Thanks for the instant translation!

    I assume E is emergency, but am puzzling over the A.
    Accident
    So if after an accident you need to go to hospital, it's an emergency. ER seems better and more concise.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Meanwhile, Al-Shabab (Somalian Islamist extremists, for those not keeping up) have stormed an African Union army base:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-35321522
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Leave are finally getting their arse in gear

    Read why the pro-EU argument that we'll lose job creators when we #LeaveEU can be turfed out https://t.co/WD6WD9Grn7 https://t.co/mDOf9I0uui
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,598
    edited 2016 15

    A lot of those C2DE voters aren't feeling the social protection of having lower wages, or no job at all, and significant social changes in their local communities from the free movement that the EU facilitates.

    Unemployment is at a record low, and many C2DE workers work alongside EU migrants and enjoy their company. Very many do not see them as devils, but rather as valuble workmates.

    That's right in the sense that crude racism/xenophobia is now rare - almost nobody says "I hate Poles" or "I'd never be friends with a Pakistani". But it's not a complete answer - people (including some former immigrants) do fret about the possible impact on their jobs of cheaper labour (not just services - everyone in IT has seen jobs emigrating at high speed for years) and/or about social change arising from rapid immigration. Note by the way that the IT trend is what can happen when you don't have free movement - the jobs emigrate to the people instead.

    Because they also, usually, don't want to be seen as xenophobes, many don't feel altogether comfortable voting UKIP, who as I said the other day have avoided looking like pure racists but do seem a bit fusty and dubious about foreigners. So voters morosely tell pollsters that immigration is an important issue but "nobody" seems to be addressing it, while on the whole stopping short of voting UKIP. A similar phenomenon is visible all over Europe, where anti-immigration parties have apparent ceilings of support until they break out into being about a lot of other things too.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,744

    Another excellent podcast.

    Nice to see Matt Goodwin agreeing with me.

    How do you think Leave can propose an alternative model without it dividing the movement and being shot to pieces?
    Say the existing model is flawed.

    Say Cameron said we wouldn't partake in the Greek bailout

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8588350/David-Cameron-We-wont-bail-out-Greece.html

    Britain has been dragged into the eurozone’s efforts to rescue Greece through a Brussels legal manoeuvre that has angered London and complicated David Cameron’s efforts to renegotiate UK membership terms in the EU.

    Disregarding strong objections from British ministers, the European Commission on Wednesday proposed using a mothballed EU-wide rescue fund — the European Financial Stability Mechanism — to give Greece the €7bn it needs to cover debt repayments on Monday.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6d92bbe2-2b04-11e5-8613-e7aedbb7bdb7.html#axzz3xInEGPvH
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,819
    Tim_B said:

    I have been watching BBC World News and they had 4 people sitting round a table doing - of all things - reviewing the newspapers. Why would a 24 hour news network review the press, by definition a news vehicle way behind 24/7 news channels? Truly bizarre.

    - and why can't these people wear ties? They just look scruffy.

    24 hours is a lot of airtime. Reading the papers is predictable filler.

    Ties are dead. An anachronism. Good riddance.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. Eagles, quite. What's your intention, regarding the vote?

    Mr. Jonathan, indeed. Probably makes a nice change for the newsreader too.

    As someone who doesn't buy papers, it's also interesting to see what the front pages say.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Tim_B said:

    Wanderer said:

    Tim_B said:

    Mr. B, A&E.

    Incidentally, if a third strike goes ahead, junior doctors will, apparently, walk out of A&E as well.

    Thanks for the instant translation!

    I assume E is emergency, but am puzzling over the A.
    Accident
    So if after an accident you need to go to hospital, it's an emergency. ER seems better and more concise.
    But the R is redundant in ER. Of course it's a room. What else?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Blue_rog said:

    Tim_B said:

    Mr. B, not far wrong (I am in Yorkshire, but not Harrogate).

    Give the Wetherby Whaler a try if you like Fish and chips.
    The Wetherby Whaler is achain - there's one on the old Harry Ramsden's site in Guiseley
    Go to the original one in Wetherby. When I was there it was the only one. I remember as a teenager going to Harry Ramsden's in Guiseley and having a special portion of haddock, chips and peas, with bread and butter for 12/6. In those days it was the only Harry Ramsdens. The original shed was in the back of the parking lot. Bus loads used to come.

    The White Cross pram factory was literally down the road.

    If the original Harry Ramsden's is gone then it's one less thing to do on my next trip to the UK.

    We used to go to the Wetherby Whaler and walk up and down the street in Wetherby eating and it was great. Harry Ramsden's was great too. It's only 10 years ago!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,744
    edited 2016 15

    Mr. Eagles, quite. What's your intention, regarding the vote?

    Mr. Jonathan, indeed. Probably makes a nice change for the newsreader too.

    As someone who doesn't buy papers, it's also interesting to see what the front pages say.

    I partook in an opinion poll the other day. I said I was a Leaver, and said I was 6 out of 10 certain of that.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited 2016 15
    Wanderer said:

    Tim_B said:

    Wanderer said:

    Tim_B said:

    Mr. B, A&E.

    Incidentally, if a third strike goes ahead, junior doctors will, apparently, walk out of A&E as well.

    Thanks for the instant translation!

    I assume E is emergency, but am puzzling over the A.
    Accident
    So if after an accident you need to go to hospital, it's an emergency. ER seems better and more concise.
    But the R is redundant in ER. Of course it's a room. What else?
    But it isn't - it's a suite. Lots of Rs

    Is this a subject of major importance or what? ;)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Tim_B said:

    Callers to out-of-hours GP service faced waits of more than 12 hours, leaked report reveals https://t.co/ytoAZrSzKI https://t.co/uc2ZmfPuv1

    If the NHS is truly 24/7 - as the doctors were recently arguing - why is there such a concept as 'out of hours'?
    There isn't if you go to the ER
    There is more to the NHS than the ER.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,882

    Another excellent podcast.

    Nice to see Matt Goodwin agreeing with me.

    How do you think Leave can propose an alternative model without it dividing the movement and being shot to pieces?
    Say the existing model is flawed.

    Say Cameron said we wouldn't partake in the Greek bailout

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8588350/David-Cameron-We-wont-bail-out-Greece.html

    Britain has been dragged into the eurozone’s efforts to rescue Greece through a Brussels legal manoeuvre that has angered London and complicated David Cameron’s efforts to renegotiate UK membership terms in the EU.

    Disregarding strong objections from British ministers, the European Commission on Wednesday proposed using a mothballed EU-wide rescue fund — the European Financial Stability Mechanism — to give Greece the €7bn it needs to cover debt repayments on Monday.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6d92bbe2-2b04-11e5-8613-e7aedbb7bdb7.html#axzz3xInEGPvH
    Agree. The best strategy for Leave is to treat this as a vote of confidence in the EU.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. Eagles, hope that number ticks up, and interesting to hear your current thinking.

    I'd probably put myself at 9/10 for Leave. I'd probably be nearer your score if it were on how things stand now, but taking the longer view, I can't see us being in being in our interests.

    Mr. B, I think the last fish restaurant I went to was Nash's [sp] in Leeds, which was very nice.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    Callers to out-of-hours GP service faced waits of more than 12 hours, leaked report reveals https://t.co/ytoAZrSzKI https://t.co/uc2ZmfPuv1

    If the NHS is truly 24/7 - as the doctors were recently arguing - why is there such a concept as 'out of hours'?
    There isn't if you go to the ER
    There is more to the NHS than the ER.
    Unfortunately there is - I've experienced it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451

    Another excellent podcast.

    Nice to see Matt Goodwin agreeing with me.

    How do you think Leave can propose an alternative model without it dividing the movement and being shot to pieces?
    Say the existing model is flawed.

    Say Cameron said we wouldn't partake in the Greek bailout

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8588350/David-Cameron-We-wont-bail-out-Greece.html

    Britain has been dragged into the eurozone’s efforts to rescue Greece through a Brussels legal manoeuvre that has angered London and complicated David Cameron’s efforts to renegotiate UK membership terms in the EU.

    Disregarding strong objections from British ministers, the European Commission on Wednesday proposed using a mothballed EU-wide rescue fund — the European Financial Stability Mechanism — to give Greece the €7bn it needs to cover debt repayments on Monday.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6d92bbe2-2b04-11e5-8613-e7aedbb7bdb7.html#axzz3xInEGPvH
    Thanks.
This discussion has been closed.