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  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    On a practicable level, at just exactly what tier do Rangers and Celtic join the English pyramid.

    I can't see two Premier league clubs willing to make way for them nor can I see the Premier League becoming a twenty two team league, there just aren't the dates in the calendar for it.

    It would make getting in the CL harder at the top end and make it harder to get into or stay in the PL at the bottom end. English football, with its £3 billion TV deal, does not need or want Celtic and Rangers. Should he really get involved, Cameron would very quickly find that out. Osborne's boos at the Paralympics would be nothing on the constant grief Dave would get. He is best off leaving well alone - though I hope and suspect this is basically a made up story.



    The two teams that had to make way wouldn't be happy, but that doesn't mean the majority of the premiership wouldn't support it. Neither Celtic or Rangers are better than the top six teams in the EPL, so I can't see them having a problem. Just because they are already making a lot of money doesn't mean they don't stand to gain more from getting much more attention from Scottish football fans.
  • @southam


    " He is best off leaving well alone - though I hope and suspect this is basically a made up story."

    Totally agree.

    Having seen what Rangers fan did to Manchester in 2008, I'm not exactly filled to the brim with girlish glee at the regular prospect of Rangers fans visiting England on a regular basis.

    As one of my Scottish friends said to me, it was not so long ago that a successful Glasgow Derby was one when there was no murder investigations launched.

    Which I've always found odd as Scotland is the country that gave the world, the wonderful Tartan Army.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Plato said:


    A friend of Ms Harman said she would be “disappointed” not to get the job in the event of a Labour win." http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ed-miliband-axe-deputy-pm-1794459

    Yes. Her "friend" said that. The papers do take us for fools sometimes.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,521

    On a practicable level, at just exactly what tier do Rangers and Celtic join the English pyramid.

    I can't see two Premier league clubs willing to make way for them nor can I see the Premier League becoming a twenty two team league, there just aren't the dates in the calendar for it.

    It would make getting in the CL harder at the top end and make it harder to get into or stay in the PL at the bottom end. English football, with its £3 billion TV deal, does not need or want Celtic and Rangers. Should he really get involved, Cameron would very quickly find that out. Osborne's boos at the Paralympics would be nothing on the constant grief Dave would get. He is best off leaving well alone - though I hope and suspect this is basically a made up story.



    SO, at some point the gravy train for the EPL will hit the buffers and they be looking at ways to save their skins. Given that only a handful of teams have any hope in the EPL and most of the games are just relegation battles between overpaid numpties, the novelty of having Rangers and Celtic with their worldwide followings may become very attractive. Arsenal v Rangers or Celtic would be slightly more attractive than the Arsenal v Reading one sided non attraction yesterday.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    ".... filled to the brim with girlish glee ..."

    Yay! A G&S quote and the first of the day. Well done Mr. Eagles.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited March 2013
    Ed's determined to copy his socialist hero in France.

    'Labour, too, sometimes gives the impression that a tighter squeeze on the rich is all that is required to deal with the deficit. Clobber the banks a bit harder and restore the 50p rate on high earners and that will do the trick. I confess to having lost count of how many times Labour has said it can finance this pledge or that by taxing bankers' bonuses. The lesson from France is that this might get you through a campaign. It might even win you an election. But pretending that you won't have to make tough decisions affecting average voters will get you into terrible trouble once you are in power.'

    Just tax those bankers and everything is fixed.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited March 2013
    Whilst not being very keen on the DT as a source of record or subbing - I note that since they've gone behind their paywall V0.1 their tweets are almost universally rubbishing the Tories in HMG and delighting in doing so corporately rather than single columnists making a personal point.


    Those of us who can Tell The Difference between the Torygraph of the 80s and the UKIPgraph of the '10s didn't have any trouble spotting the difference - perhaps those who are of the Left who haven't noticed will finally wake up.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    The tea party tory thinks that Boris is going to be made PM before the next election??

    LOL

    'Robust' indeed.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I do hope that the paucity of Labourite campaigning at GE2015 is a reflection of PB actiivty based on mates, Bullingdon, Eton, posh fops, yachts et al.

    What a dismal failure by HMG Official Opposition almost 3yrs in when the best their cyber warriors can do is this juvenile and empty ad hom. I know they think their voters are stupid - but this takes the biscuit if they seriously believe its more than core vote fodder.

    I cringe when I see it trotted out by Labourites who apparently hold down serious jobs and travel internationally because of them.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    tim said:

    @ScottP

    Because he's Dave's mate.

    No more explanation necessary


    That's the kind of rabid anti-tory racism that makes serial labour voting fiscal conservatives with a libertarian twist, cringe.

    If they weren't an inept public relations fantasy. ;^)
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    LOL

    RT @Jeremy_Starship: Each member if the Cambridge crew works 15 hours as week with charities . 6 members of the Oxford crew have convictions #BoatRaceFacts
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,172
    edited March 2013


    Which I've always found odd as Scotland is the country that gave the world, the wonderful Tartan Army.

    Plastic Paddies flying the tricoleur v. pretendy Prods flying the Union flag = massive insecurity and paranoia.

    Tartan Army flying the saltire = absolutely no expectations and a desire for a compensatory good time.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    My mother joined the NUT in the early 80s for their legal protection and thought they were ideologically insane. And things don't seem to have changed.

    "The teaching unions have a new bogey man, judging from this week's annual conferences of the ATL, the NUT and the NASUWT. Budge up Michael Gove. There's room for another Tory squire in the stocks. His name is Sir Michael Wilshaw, the new head of Ofsted. Yesterday, the NUT branded Wilshaw "an odious creature", compared Ofsted to "the Spanish Inquisition" and called on teachers to boycott inspections, a move that would put them on the wrong side of the law.

    So who is Sir Michael and what do the angry brigades have against him? Well, for one thing, he's the executive principal of an academy in addition to being the Chief Inspector of Schools. Not just any academy, either, but Mossbourne Community Academy in Hackney, one of the most successful state schools in England.

    In spite of over 50 per cent of its pupils being eligible for free school meals, 89% of them achieved 5 A*-C grades in their GCSEs last year, including English and Mathematics. Seven of its pupils were offered places at Oxford and Cambridge and every Sixth Former went on to university... " http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100209757/teaching-unions-declare-war-on-ofsted-in-last-ditch-effort-to-protect-mediocrity/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,172
    Plato said:

    6 members of the Oxford crew have convictions #BoatRaceFacts

    Not doing PPE then..

  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Plato

    The NUT are fine as long as you don't change anything,have any competition and their members,however badly they perform, have jobs for life.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited March 2013
    @johnzims

    "The NUT are fine as long as you don't change anything,have any competition and their members,however badly they perform, have jobs for life."

    And only have a SoS who agrees with your every demand.

    It's pitiful. I held most of my teachers in the highest regard in the 70s - then it was all down hill from there for those as products of the leftist dogma of the 60s who were more interested in their agenda than teaching.

    I've several friends in Wales who are embarrassed to admit what they do for a living as standards have been corrupted - and are natural Guardian readers.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    I think all concerned have handled post-Leveson poorly - but to claim that "Hacked Off" are even more unrepresentative than "the average newspaper owner" is tin foil territory.

    Hacked Off are *exactly* as representative as the "average newspaper owner". They are as representative as you or I, or even tim, of the British electorate.

    i.e. Not at all. They are individuals with their own concerns and priorities. They haven't been elected to anything. They are lobbying to achieve their own objectives. That makes them the same as the newspaper owners.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Those are really off-putting. I loved the chicken pot pie at ClaimJumper until I saw that it was 2,873 calories...
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572
    Calling "Soon you will all be religious" SeanT - YouGov for Easter, showing clear decline in belief in God compared to previous generation. Indeed a non-trivial number of Christians don't believe in God.

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j6bqjztt81/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-280313.pdf

    Plato - puzzled by your Swiss German experience. I lived there for 16 years and don't remember EVER seeing an egg on a steak. Perhaps a local speciality where you were?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,995
    Afternoon all :)

    Easter Greetings to all.

    I'm trying to find the place in the Bible where it says "and on the third day Christ rose from the dead and cleaned out the spare room". A revealing exercise in many ways, not least the sheer amount of accumulated "stuff" representing a life or in our case two lives and the myriad lives which touch ours.

    The fact that someone feels the need to tell us the details of how wonderful one Boat Race crew is and how bad the other is, the fact they've felt the need and had the time to do it and the fact that someone on here has nothing better to do than to repeat it also speaks volumes.

    The Devil clearly finds work for idle hands while the virtuous are left with the spare room to sort out. Twas ever thus.



  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,984
    edited March 2013
    @NickP.

    Very interesting Yougov poll.

    If I edited 'The Mail' or 'TheExpress' or even more so The Sun or 'The Mirror' I'd spend less time worrying about press freedom and more time concerning myself with why 90% of the population don't believe a word I write and respect me less even than a Lib Dem politician!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,977
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Villeneuve draws a comparison between the Malaysian result and the contretemps between his father and Pironi:
    http://www.espn.co.uk/redbull/motorsport/story/104590.html

    For those unaware, it was quite similar to the Webber-Vettel situation (Pironi passed Villenueve and got the win), but at the next race Gilles Villeneuve was killed trying to beat Pironi's qualifying time in dire conditions.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited March 2013
    @NickPalmer

    WHich of those statistics do you think supports your hypothesis? I'd say the situation is much weaker than a quick reading of the figures would seem to suggest.

    I think also @SeanT means across the world, not our "little band of left atheist twonks" (or whatever phrase he'd use...!) in the UK.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Plato said:

    6 members of the Oxford crew have convictions #BoatRaceFacts

    Not doing PPE then..

    Another example of why we need the 'like' button back...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,995
    Roger said:

    @NickP.

    Very interesting Yougov poll.

    If I edited 'The Mail' or 'TheExpress' or even more so The Sun or 'The Mirror' I'd spend less time worrying about press freedom and more time concerning myself with why 90% of the population don't believe a word I write and respect me less even than a Lib Dem politician!

    One of the aspects of the whole "freedom of the Press" which interests me is the concept of "the public interest". Proponents of press freedom argue that it is "in the public interest" for revelations about political and celebrity figures to be aired.

    I'm not certain how the notion of "the public interest" is or can be defined. One could argue that if people read the papers which print the stories that assumes they must be interested and therefore it justifies publication.

    I would certainly argue that holfding individuals and institutions from Government down accountable for their actions is a vital part of a free Press but the line for me is crossed when the original good intention of the story descends into a public humiliation.

    Yes, let's castigate the politician for hypocrisy if he or she says one thing and does another but is the state of a celebrity's personal life or the straitened circumstances of a once influential figure of that much "interest" ?

  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Sean, clearly they're all watching the boat race!

    (Come on Oxford!!!!)
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,780
    Ah, the boat race... not a leftie in sight and as it should be...
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,780
    Sorry seant I frankly have better thing to do at the moment, like gorging myself on roast lamb...
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366

    Sean T,

    OK ...

    On your recommendation, I watched Spartacus a couple of times. I've no problem with soft-core porn but the story and action is for teenagers only. It's virtually a cartoon. I found myself cheering for the Romans.

    Game of Thrones has a reasonable story and the females are still very pretty with unnaturally nice bodies. No comparison.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited March 2013
    Well the Boat Race hasn't started yet. It's been nearly an hour diatribe and abysmal reporting.

    Come on the Grand National!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Some other interesting stuff in that YouGov on 'trust'.

    Those with most recent experience of teachers, trust them least (net):

    18-24: +38
    60+: +57

    Similarly, the young trust the 'local police' least (net):

    18-24: +23
    60+: +46

    BBC News Journalist's 'trust' rating has improved substantially since December, as has ITN's:

    Trust net (change vs Dec 12)
    BBC: +28 (+21)
    ITN: +15 (+16)
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    SeanT said:

    Calling "Soon you will all be religious" SeanT - YouGov for Easter, showing clear decline in belief in God compared to previous generation. Indeed a non-trivial number of Christians don't believe in God.

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j6bqjztt81/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-280313.pdf

    Religious belief is in clear decline in Europe. Funnily enough, Europe is in clear decline demographically and economically, compared to the rest of the world.

    Atheists don't have enough babies. Here endeth the argument.


    Atheists, or just the irreligious generally? You are right in this, but equally, every country in the world has become less religious as it has developed. This is true even now in the USA, which was thought to be the exception. There's absolutely no reason to believe the disparate fertility rates overcomes this effect.

    It will be a very interesting world we enter when, globally, we go Japanese, and the world's population starts shrinking. Goodbye to reasonable interest rates on pension savings. Even private schemes could become nonviable as there's nowhere to invest the money with a shrinking global workforce.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited March 2013
    As effortless as running the country.

    The dark blue fops rule the waves.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @SeanT

    I've just finished Season 2 of Breaking Bad. It is indeed very good. Best thing I've seen since the Wire, which nothing has yet surpassed. I like it more than the Sopranos, which was very good, but overrated. I enjoyed Spartacus, but it was indeed two-dimensional, so more of a guilty pleasure. I liked Game of Thrones more, particularly Season 2, which had a cracker of an ending.
  • SeanT said:

    WTF has happened to pb? Six comments in an hour? Is it over? Or are you all just freezing your knackers off and trying to stay alive? And too busy to comment?


    and Sean T also said
    Religious belief is in clear decline in Europe. Funnily enough, Europe is in clear decline demographically and economically, compared to the rest of the world.

    Atheists don't have enough babies. Here endeth the argument.
    Sean - I think this second quote partly explains the first.

    Might it be that conversaation is a little slow today because it is a Bank Holiday and some of us, religious or not, are spending time with our families? Right - back to washing up the roast dishes!

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Not sure broadcasting the Cox's exhortations entirely wise....it sounds a bit like a bad porn movie...breathless injunctions 'harder...harder....' one of them just dropped the F-bomb....could be entertaining now Cowley Tech are ahead of Fen Poly....
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    SeanT said:

    Talking of screen entertainment, I'm 100 minutes into The Hobbit and its the most boring movie I've seen since '2012'.

    It would help if there was a plot. Can someone remind me WHY Bilbo and Co are wandering aimlessly around the more cinegenic parts of New Zealand? At least with Lord of the Rings, for all its sprawl, you always knew The Reason for The Quest.

    To get the treasure back from the dragon?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572
    Pretty sure most people are simply offline. I sent out my (fairly) regular email to constituents a few hours ago, which always generates about 20 replies the same day, even when I'm not saying anything much. So far, zilch.

    But FWIW I've launched a blog: http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk

    Apart from a few test posts it's only got the said discussion (on education issues), but it will get an update from me leisurely chatting on this and that every two weeks or so. Subscribers welcome. Not trying to compete with OGH but some civil cross-party contributions would be good.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    @Seant I am the opposite, I thought that GoTs season 2 was excellent and bodes well for the premier of Season 3. In fact, like the Tudors its looks like its hopefully just going to get better and better.

    Just waiting for Fitaloon and son No2 to arrive back from Manchester after watching their beloved Man City win 4 nil at home. :)

  • Yes, let's castigate the politician for hypocrisy if he or she says one thing and does another but is the state of a celebrity's personal life or the straitened circumstances of a once influential figure of that much "interest" ?

    The problem is that many celebrities use their personal integrity as part of their brand to sell their product (i.e. themselves). They make money out of it. They use it to project an image of wholesomeness. A wholsomeness that is often then held up as an example of being a role model for our younger people.

    Now if that 'wholesomeness' turns out to be a fabrication (i.e. to a certain extent the product does not represent what is described on the packaging) then isn't it the duty of a Free Press to expose it? After all isn't it in a way obtaining by deception?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Socrates said:

    It will be a very interesting world we enter when, globally, we go Japanese, and the world's population starts shrinking.

    Presumably eventually Life Will Find A Way - people with genes responsible for people having more kids despite the availability of birth control will out-breed people without those genes, whether the mechanism is a strong parental instinct, propensity for belief in invisible super-heroes or being too dim to use birth control properly.

    The question is whether this will happen before we run out of people in developing countries with high fertility rates. This kind of thing is quite hard to call, and IIUC expert predictions have often been quite badly out over the long term. But right now there only really seems to be a problem in countries that are socially developed but poor (like some parts of Eastern Europe) or have strongly anti-immigration governments (like Japan).

    I guess Japan's situation shows a potential vicious circle, where if you have fewer young people you'll tend to elect socially conservative governments which restrict immigration, thus producing fewer young people. I guess Japan got into this trap because of the way the US designed its electoral system to keep out Communism, by systematically over-representing aging rural voters.
  • WTF has happened to pb? Six comments in an hour? Is it over? Or are you all just freezing your knackers off and trying to stay alive? And too busy to comment?

    Or it could just be that the site is losing its lustre? Certainly I no longer feel drawn to it as I once did. There is a certain sense of other wordliness about it these days. It seems too representative of the Freakshow in Westminster and has done for quite a while now.

    And with that I'm off to do something more interesting....Toodles
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    @SeanT

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j6bqjztt81/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-280313.pdf

    Do not believe in god or higher spiritual power:

    18-24: 42
    25-39: 35
    40-59: 30
    60+: 22

    Clare Balding doing a great job at the Boat Race - not sticking her microphone in the face of the losing Cambridge crew asking 'how do you feel'.....
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    I guess Japan's situation shows a potential vicious circle, where if you have fewer young people you'll tend to elect socially conservative governments which restrict immigration, thus producing fewer young people. I guess Japan got into this trap because of the way the US designed its electoral system to keep out Communism, by systematically over-representing aging rural voters.

    Well, that and secret funding one of the parties by the CIA! But it does make me wonder. We've read a lot about overpopulation and Malthusian crises etc, but after the world population peaks, it could get very small indeed. Perhaps this is the explanation for the Fermi Paradox? Advanced civilisations don't get wiped out by something, they just stop breeding enough.
  • @smithersjones2013: "Or it could just be that the site is losing its lustre? Certainly I no longer feel drawn to it as I once did. There is a certain sense of other wordliness about it these days. It seems too representative of the Freakshow in Westminster and has done for quite a while"

    I agree - the number of posts and posters is way down - some of the regulars are very rude to those who question their worldview and the host is far less even-handed than he was. Obviously that's his right but it doesn't encourage neutrals or those with an opposite view to contribute. Some of the regulars on both sides massively over post.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited March 2013
    SeanT said:


    @socrates
    China is becoming much more religious as it develops. And China is a fifth of the world by itself.

    I'm not sure this is due to development, more than a temporary effect from the end of state-enforced atheism. Thus people are returning to the natural level. But remember they are still early on their development path. I still suspect the secularisation effect will win out when they reach $20k a year incomes.
    Also Asia is the future: and Asia is exceedingly religious.
    Agreed, but that doesn't go against anything I've said. The less developed a society is, the more religious it is. The countries that are the future are the ones that are less developed and can catch up very fast. Once Asia catches up and becomes less religious, they may look at Africa and say "well we're secular, but Africa is the future and they're very religious."
    Likewise the stats on American irreligiousness are overdone. Just 2% of yanks say they are atheist. 2%!
    Hence my distinction between irreligiosity and atheism. I'm not expecting atheism to take off. Just for most people not to care.
    Fact is, humans are hardwired for faith. Irreligious societies therefore, ultimately, decline into sterility, infertility, and nihilist materialist consumerism. As we see in Europe.
    Indeed. I just suspect that that will happen to every society, give it a century.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    scampi said:

    @smithersjones2013: "Or it could just be that the site is losing its lustre? Certainly I no longer feel drawn to it as I once did. There is a certain sense of other wordliness about it these days. It seems too representative of the Freakshow in Westminster and has done for quite a while"

    I agree - the number of posts and posters is way down - some of the regulars are very rude to those who question their worldview and the host is far less even-handed than he was. Obviously that's his right but it doesn't encourage neutrals or those with an opposite view to contribute. Some of the regulars on both sides massively over post.

    At the risk of making it worse for myself, can I ask if I'm one of those? I tend to post very heavily during certain periods, and never know whether I'm going too far...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    Calling "Soon you will all be religious" SeanT - YouGov for Easter, showing clear decline in belief in God compared to previous generation. Indeed a non-trivial number of Christians don't believe in God.

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j6bqjztt81/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-280313.pdf

    Religious belief is in clear decline in Europe. Funnily enough, Europe is in clear decline demographically and economically, compared to the rest of the world.

    Atheists don't have enough babies. Here endeth the argument.


    Atheists, or just the irreligious generally? You are right in this, but equally, every country in the world has become less religious as it has developed. This is true even now in the USA, which was thought to be the exception. There's absolutely no reason to believe the disparate fertility rates overcomes this effect.

    It will be a very interesting world we enter when, globally, we go Japanese, and the world's population starts shrinking. Goodbye to reasonable interest rates on pension savings. Even private schemes could become nonviable as there's nowhere to invest the money with a shrinking global workforce.
    Is that true? Fertility rates have dropped throughout the world including societies like Iran that would be difficult to characterise as irreligious.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572
    Fox: "societies like Iran that would be difficult to characterise as irreligious"

    Lol - never mind the NHS or the Queen, it's delicate British understatement that we should be really proud of.

    Socrates - don't worry, over-posting is usually in the eye of the beholder. We often disagree but your posts are always interesting and I wouldn't urge you to cut back in number (maybe sometimes we all overdo the length or belabour the same point too much).
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Easter miracle! He is risen! 900,000 choose to come off sickness benefit ahead of tests"

    What a disgusting tweet. The cruelty of the Atos testing procedure is hardly a state secret, and I wouldn't blame anyone for doing pretty much anything to avoid it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Good summary of the questions facing both sides of the Scottish independence debate:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-21980770


    "It is easy to see why the RUK, representing 91.5% of a monetary union, might seek oversight of the economic affairs of Scotland," writes Kay. "It is more difficult to see why RUK should conceded oversight over its policies to Scotland, representing 8.5% of the union.

    "But in the absence of such reciprocity, the degree of autonomy Scotland would enjoy in fiscal policy might differ very little from the modest amount Scotland currently enjoys under the allocation of a block grant within the UK."
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    ".... back to washing up the roast dishes"

    I have just, at long last, finished and what a grisly task it was. Does anyone, and I am looking at the ladies particularly here, know how to cook a proper roast lunch with all the trimmings without generating a great pile of washing up? I am sure my late sister never had this problem, nor my mother or grandmother. So I strongly suspect that there are secrets of the kitchen that are only handed on down the female side.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 994
    edited March 2013
    "Research by the NHF says that while there are currently 180,000 households that are "underoccupying two-bedroom homes", there are far fewer smaller properties in the social housing sector available to move into. Last year only 85,000 one-bedroom homes became available. The federation has calculated that if all those available places were taken up by people moving as a result of the "bedroom tax", the remaining 95,000 households would be faced with the choice of staying put and taking a cut in income, or renting a home in the private sector.

    If all 95,000 moved into the private sector, it says the cost of housing benefit would increase by £143m, and by millions more if others among the remaining 480,000 affected chose to rent privately."

    The Observer

    What does not seem to have been considered is that if 95,000 moved to the private sector that would leave 95,000 empty properties - to be filled from the private sector.

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Good to know that if you had your time again you'd precipitate the election that brought Thatcher to power - tho, the way young Mr Kelly tells it Mrs T was not universally popular in Scotland.....funny that."

    Certainly I think the SNP did the right thing in 1979. Self-evidently there was nothing much to gain by bringing the Labour government down, but equally there was nothing to gain by not bringing the government down - Mrs Thatcher was on her way to power anyway, probably within a matter of a few short weeks.

    It was above all else a matter of principle. Labour had betrayed the people of Scotland on devolution, and there had to be consequences.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    SeanT said:



    China is becoming much more religious as it develops. And China is a fifth of the world by itself.
    Also Asia is the future: and Asia is exceedingly religious.

    Given how China used to "discourage" religious observance, are you sure you are comparing like with like?
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Good summary of the questions facing both sides of the Scottish independence debate:"

    Hmm. Sounds more like a partisan summary of the No side's debating points, but each to her own.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Icarus said:

    "Research by the NHF says that while there are currently 180,000 households that are "underoccupying two-bedroom homes", there are far fewer smaller properties in the social housing sector available to move into. Last year only 85,000 one-bedroom homes became available. The federation has calculated that if all those available places were taken up by people moving as a result of the "bedroom tax", the remaining 95,000 households would be faced with the choice of staying put and taking a cut in income, or renting a home in the private sector.

    If all 95,000 moved into the private sector, it says the cost of housing benefit would increase by £143m, and by millions more if others among the remaining 480,000 affected chose to rent privately."

    The Observer

    What does not seem to have been considered is that if 95,000 moved to the private sector that would leave 95,000 empty properties - to be filled from the private sector.

    Indeed 95 000 public sector homes for £143 million seems quite a bargain, about £1500 per several bedroom property avaliable to those on housing waiting lists.

    Labour seem keen on the sob stories of those having to move, less keen on the positives for those homeless or overcrowded families who will benefit. Its like most budget changes, one where the noise comes from those who get less rather than those who get more.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    "Does anyone, and I am looking at the ladies particularly here, know how to cook a proper roast lunch with all the trimmings without generating a great pile of washing up? I am sure my late sister never had this problem, nor my mother or grandmother. So I strongly suspect that there are secrets of the kitchen that are only handed on down the female side.

    My Mum says that the trick is to wash up as you go along...
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited March 2013
    2013 was always going to be a challenge on PB simply because not a lot is happening. The site is best when it's about betting and at the moment there's not much to do.

    2012 saw the London mayoral race and all the machinations of the WH2012 - both massive betting events.

    Thankfully we've had Eastleigh in 2013. South Shields just looks boring and won't attract a quarter of the activivity.



  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Labour had betrayed the people of Scotland on devolution, and there had to be consequences.

    Then why wait until after the referendum failed to meet the 40% of the electorate hurdle, rather than acting before when the Cunningham amendment was passed?

    Doing so then would have removed any suspicion of 'sour grapes'....

  • @socrates

    At the risk of making it worse for myself, can I ask if I'm one of those? I tend to post very heavily during certain periods, and never know whether I'm going too far...


    No
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Hmm. Sounds more like a partisan summary of the No side's debating points, but each to her own.

    Have you read it?

    Next you'll be joining the 'PBTories' in accusing the BBC of bias.....

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Any bets on which way Ed will jump?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/mar/31/labour-urged-not-downgrading-trident

    Labour urged not to back downgrading of Trident
    Labour frontbencher and former Gordon Brown aide say party would look 'dangerously weak' if it supported diluted deterrent
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    "Easter miracle! He is risen! 900,000 choose to come off sickness benefit ahead of tests"

    What a disgusting tweet. The cruelty of the Atos testing procedure is hardly a state secret, and I wouldn't blame anyone for doing pretty much anything to avoid it.

    Wasn't the test to maintain eligibility and the outsourcing to ATOS done under the last Labour govt?

    Rather like the tripartite agreement on privatising the NHS we have a tripartite consensus on testing for sickness benefits in the rUK. What is SNP (or UKIPs) policy on this?
  • bunncobunnco Posts: 169
    Fewer-readers, Fewer Posters.

    This vanilla thing is much better than disqus and I now lurk a bit more frequently, but it's very difficult to just dip-in-and-out of a thread because it's displayed in reverse-order-of-posting. It makes it very difficult to scan read down the page. Can we revert to the principle of first-posted, first printed.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited March 2013
    Am hacked off over the residents' parking tax scam which is about to hit the North and West suburbs of Bristol. The new Mayor claims it is due to commuters wanting places to park during the day, which stop locals parking. But the scheme happens to hit districts which are largely owner occupied rather than social housing, council housing estates. How does it help SMEs if their staff drive to workplaces within the new parking zone scam?

    http://www.bristol.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/business_in_bristol/statutory_and_regulatory_services/parking/Residents Parking Areas Mar 2013.pdf

    Will have to see how the candidates at the May 2nd Local Elections propose to do - will they go along with it, obstruct it or prevent implementation. Add on proposals from Lib Dems for a City Wide 20 mph zone...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    2013 was always going to be a challenge on PB simply because not a lot is happening. The site is best when it's about betting and at the moment there's not much to do.

    2012 saw the London mayoral race and all the machinations of the WH2012 - both massive betting events.

    Thankfully we've had Eastleigh in 2013. South Shields just looks boring and won't attract a quarter of the activivity.



    The local council elections are only a few weeks away, are there any markets up on these yet? I haven't noticed any.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Wasn't the test to maintain eligibility and the outsourcing to ATOS done under the last Labour govt?

    Rather like the tripartite agreement on privatising the NHS we have a tripartite consensus on testing for sickness benefits in the rUK."


    Indeed you do. You've just got to the nub of one of the many reasons why independence is such a moral imperative.

    "What is SNP (or UKIPs) policy on this?"

    You can guarantee that UKIP either adore it, or think it should be even more draconian. But I'm pleased to say the SNP's policy is somewhat at variance with the tripartite agreement.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Have you read it?"

    Just the bit you quoted, which you seemed to think was the significant bit.

    "Next you'll be joining the 'PBTories' in accusing the BBC of bias....."

    I certainly won't be joining PB Tories in accusing the pro-union, moderately conservative BBC of bias against the Conservative Party. Don't be silly, Carlotta.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "My Mum says that the trick is to wash up as you go along..."

    Yes that's the sort of thing I have been told, by ladies, all my life. The thing is with a roast it just doesn't work. So many dishes and saucepans and whatnot are all required right-up to the point of service. So this wash-up as you go along malarkey is I strongly suspect the line that ladies use to fob off us blokes whilst maintaining the secrets of the kitchen.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Then why wait until after the referendum failed to meet the 40% of the electorate hurdle, rather than acting before when the Cunningham amendment was passed?

    Doing so then would have removed any suspicion of 'sour grapes'...."



    I've explained the most common misconception about the 40% rule a number of times here, and doubtless I'll have to do it several times more. The 40% rule simply compelled the Secretary of State for Scotland to table an order of repeal if the threshold was not met. It was perfectly open to the government to whip their MPs to vote against the repeal of the Scotland Act, in which case devolution would still have happened.

    So the true betrayal was that Callaghan refused to do that. By definition, therefore, the SNP could not respond to that betrayal until after the referendum.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited March 2013

    "My Mum says that the trick is to wash up as you go along..."

    Yes that's the sort of thing I have been told, by ladies, all my life. The thing is with a roast it just doesn't work. So many dishes and saucepans and whatnot are all required right-up to the point of service. So this wash-up as you go along malarkey is I strongly suspect the line that ladies use to fob off us blokes whilst maintaining the secrets of the kitchen.

    The deal that I always had with my partner was that whoever cooks, the other does the washing up. Suddenly cooking the Sunday roast becomes more appealing with that little domestic rule.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    SeanT said:

    Talking of screen entertainment, I'm 100 minutes into The Hobbit and its the most boring movie I've seen since '2012'.

    It would help if there was a plot. Can someone remind me WHY Bilbo and Co are wandering aimlessly around the more cinegenic parts of New Zealand? At least with Lord of the Rings, for all its sprawl, you always knew The Reason for The Quest.

    The reason for the Quest is for Peter Jackson to use all sorts of flashy new technology and continue to milk the Lord of the Rings success, win lots of oscars after part 3 (still almost 2 years away in Dec 2014), and increase tourism to New Zealand.

    I went to see it when it opened, in Imax, 3D and the 48fps frame rate. The high frame rate made a huge difference, particularly on shots with the camera moving. Technically it is indeed a triumph, but as the telling of a story, not so much. The first film goes to page 105 in the book, apparently. Less - much less - than a page per minute of screen time.

    The first 40 minutes or so appear to be played mainly for laughs and knockabout comedy. To say his narrative is plodding is a huge overstatement.

    I'm still amazed at how he has managed to parlay a short children's book into the same length of film as the the entire Rings trilogy.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2013
    @HurstLlama
    Use the microwave to cook all vegetables (they steam, so taste great)
    Same roasting pan for meat and potatoes (remove meat to rest for much of the time the roast spuds are cooking)

    Use same pan for gravy and bread/cranberry/apple-sauce (which, again, is made in advance and then allowed to rest in serving dish).

    For the joint - very long cooking at 100-120C beats 60-90 mins at 180-200C as well - much less fat splashed about, so a (largely) clean oven afterwards.
    20 mins at 220C when roast spuds are cooking gives a nice brown colour to the outside (ie the precise opposite to every cookery book, where you start very high and then cook at medium heat).

    The result is a much more moist and tender joint - just have courage, 3-4hrs and a meat thermometer to know when it's cooked to your taste.

    You should be able to manage 2/3 veg + gravy and roast meat + spuds with no more than 4 cooking dishes to wash up.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "The first 40 minutes or so appear to be played mainly for laughs and knockabout comedy. To say his narrative is plodding is a huge overstatement.

    I'm still amazed at how he has managed to parlay a short children's book into the same length of film as the the entire Rings trilogy."


    I haven't read Lord of the Rings since I was about nine or ten years old, but apparently there are all sorts of appendices at the end of The Return of the King that flesh out the story of The Hobbit, and make it consistent with LOTR. Jackson has dipped into those.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    "Wasn't the test to maintain eligibility and the outsourcing to ATOS done under the last Labour govt?

    Rather like the tripartite agreement on privatising the NHS we have a tripartite consensus on testing for sickness benefits in the rUK."


    Indeed you do. You've just got to the nub of one of the many reasons why independence is such a moral imperative.

    "What is SNP (or UKIPs) policy on this?"

    You can guarantee that UKIP either adore it, or think it should be even more draconian. But I'm pleased to say the SNP's policy is somewhat at variance with the tripartite agreement.

    I am curious now, what is the SNP policy on eligibility, testing and periodic re-assessing of sickness benefit?
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    foxinsoxuk -

    "The UK Government must respond to the research from the Scottish Association for Mental Health that the assessment for ESA is flawed and failing to properly assess mental health.

    “These findings echo the concerns raised in the independent review by Professor Malcolm Harrington which found that the assessment process was impersonal, mechanistic and lacks empathy...

    “Return-to-work initiatives can benefit both the economy and the individual, but people should only return to the workplace when they are genuinely able and when correct support measures are available.

    “Existing safeguards are not working and, with major reforms in the pipeline, we need real guarantees to ensure that that people living with genuine incapacity and ill health are spared added stress and uncertainty.

    “This issue shows yet again the different stance Scotland would take if we had the power to legislate on this issue and it is our clear view that it is the Scottish Parliament, not the UK Parliament, that should decide on welfare policy for Scotland – as would be the case if Scotland was independent."


    http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2012/jan/concern-over-flawed-uk-welfare-assessments

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    @JamesKelly
    there are all sorts of appendices at the end of The Return of the King that flesh out the story of The Hobbit, and make it consistent with LOTR. Jackson has dipped into those.

    Maybe so, but I doubt they contain lots of sight gags like opening the door and a whole bunch of hobbits fall into the room. Yup, it's that bad. It's like The Hobbit Meets the Three Stooges.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    foxinsoxuk -

    "The UK Government must respond to the research from the Scottish Association for Mental Health that the assessment for ESA is flawed and failing to properly assess mental health.

    “These findings echo the concerns raised in the independent review by Professor Malcolm Harrington which found that the assessment process was impersonal, mechanistic and lacks empathy...

    “Return-to-work initiatives can benefit both the economy and the individual, but people should only return to the workplace when they are genuinely able and when correct support measures are available.

    “Existing safeguards are not working and, with major reforms in the pipeline, we need real guarantees to ensure that that people living with genuine incapacity and ill health are spared added stress and uncertainty.

    “This issue shows yet again the different stance Scotland would take if we had the power to legislate on this issue and it is our clear view that it is the Scottish Parliament, not the UK Parliament, that should decide on welfare policy for Scotland – as would be the case if Scotland was independent."


    http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2012/jan/concern-over-flawed-uk-welfare-assessments

  • bunnco said:

    Fewer-readers, Fewer Posters.

    This vanilla thing is much better than disqus and I now lurk a bit more frequently, but it's very difficult to just dip-in-and-out of a thread because it's displayed in reverse-order-of-posting. It makes it very difficult to scan read down the page. Can we revert to the principle of first-posted, first printed.

    I agree, but I am an infrequent poster in any case.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    So the true betrayal was that Callaghan refused to do that. By definition, therefore, the SNP could not respond to that betrayal until after the referendum.

    On what planet is not whipping your own MPs to vote to overturn your own legislation "betrayal"?

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "but I doubt they contain lots of sight gags like opening the door and a whole bunch of hobbits fall into the room"

    The Hobbit is a comical children's novel. The dwarves have rhyming names, and things like that.
  • AN1 said:

    @HurstLlama
    You should be able to manage 2/3 veg + gravy and roast meat + spuds with no more than 4 cooking dishes to wash up.

    Tell that to my wife. Just returned here with wrinkled fingers!
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "On what planet is not whipping your own MPs to vote to overturn your own legislation "betrayal"?"

    Er no, Carlotta. What Callaghan refused to do was to whip his own MPs not to vote to overturn his own government's legislation - namely the Scotland Act 1978, which the electorate had just approved by popular vote.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "You should be able to manage 2/3 veg + gravy and roast meat + spuds with no more than 4 cooking dishes to wash up."

    Hmmm, not sure but I'll give it a try. I already do meat to the thermometer rather than the clock - a tip I was given by a professional chef years ago crank the oven up to max and let it get really, really hot, then put the meat in and turn the oven off. Dunno how that'll work with cooking spuds and yorkshires in the same oven, mind. Still thanks for the hints.

    Dr. Sox, my wife and I work on a similar deal, one of us cooks and I wash up.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Tim_B said:

    @JamesKelly
    there are all sorts of appendices at the end of The Return of the King that flesh out the story of The Hobbit, and make it consistent with LOTR. Jackson has dipped into those.

    Maybe so, but I doubt they contain lots of sight gags like opening the door and a whole bunch of hobbits fall into the room. Yup, it's that bad. It's like The Hobbit Meets the Three Stooges.

    You do realise it's based off a children's book, right?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Regarding the Premier League - it's not a league at all in any meaningful sense. 3/4 of the teams in it have never won it, and are not likely to. It's a 4 or 5 team league.

    If the Old Firm make the move south, why not take the opportunity to expand to 24 teams, with either 2 divisions of 12, or 4 of 6? Instigate a salary cap to promote parity. Now you will get rivals playing more often, and also you now have divisional playoffs - more TV money for the league.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Regarding the Premier League - it's not a league at all in any meaningful sense. 3/4 of the teams in it have never won it, and are not likely to. It's a 4 or 5 team league.

    If the Old Firm make the move south, why not take the opportunity to expand to 24 teams, with either 2 divisions of 12, or 4 of 6? Instigate a salary cap to promote parity. Now you will get rivals playing more often, and also you now have divisional playoffs - more TV money for the league.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Tim_B said:

    @JamesKelly
    there are all sorts of appendices at the end of The Return of the King that flesh out the story of The Hobbit, and make it consistent with LOTR. Jackson has dipped into those.

    Maybe so, but I doubt they contain lots of sight gags like opening the door and a whole bunch of hobbits fall into the room. Yup, it's that bad. It's like The Hobbit Meets the Three Stooges.

    You do realise it's based off a children's book, right?
  • houndtanghoundtang Posts: 450
    Great play - saw it last week and penned a wee review

    http://houndtang-thecomfortzone.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/the-more-things-change.html
  • @bunnco - Can we revert to the principle of first-posted, first printed?

    If you click on the time above a post it arranges into pages of comments, ordered oldest first.
    ( iPad using Mercury).
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    @Socrates
    You do realise it's based off a children's book, right?

    If you'd read my posts you'd know the answer to that one ;-)

    can I ask if I'm one of those?

    I'm tending towards the affirmative at present ;-)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited March 2013
    er, no James - the Scotland Act required that the SoS move for repeal - whether you like it or not, that was the considered will of Parliament - and the "yes" vote was hardly emphatic.

    But let's not let facts interfere with a victim hood narrative that brought about Thatcher and decades of Conservative rule....
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Tim_B said:

    @Socrates
    You do realise it's based off a children's book, right?

    If you'd read my posts you'd know the answer to that one ;-)

    Overall, I liked the Hobbit. I thought it brought the right tone of being mainly childish, but with hints of a darker future. I accepted stuff like the door gag was aimed at a younger audience, but the adventure bits were fun, the dwarven culture bits were cool, and I really enjoyed the Riddles in the Dark scene.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited March 2013
    Sorry double post. Don't know how that happened.
  • @HurstLlama

    If you're already cooking meat as you say, then I don't think it can possibly work for roast spuds - which need 220C and Yorkshire puddings which need 240C.
    Still, I tried to be helpful ;)

    Mum always cooked; Dad washed up, helped by us children. Sunday morning was bread, then cakes, then roast, then scones day, so one or other of us was on washing-up duty almost all morning!

    Depressing to see the same spoon, sieve, and bowls coming around for the second and even third time....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,521

    @southam


    " He is best off leaving well alone - though I hope and suspect this is basically a made up story."

    Totally agree.

    Having seen what Rangers fan did to Manchester in 2008, I'm not exactly filled to the brim with girlish glee at the regular prospect of Rangers fans visiting England on a regular basis.

    As one of my Scottish friends said to me, it was not so long ago that a successful Glasgow Derby was one when there was no murder investigations launched.

    Which I've always found odd as Scotland is the country that gave the world, the wonderful Tartan Army.

    TSE , mostly different beasts given rangers align with London and Celtic with Ireland. Most of tartan army come from other supporters obviously with some of the more normal Old Firm fans involved.

    Good summary of the questions facing both sides of the Scottish independence debate:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-21980770


    "It is easy to see why the RUK, representing 91.5% of a monetary union, might seek oversight of the economic affairs of Scotland," writes Kay. "It is more difficult to see why RUK should conceded oversight over its policies to Scotland, representing 8.5% of the union.

    "But in the absence of such reciprocity, the degree of autonomy Scotland would enjoy in fiscal policy might differ very little from the modest amount Scotland currently enjoys under the allocation of a block grant within the UK."

    Yes it is very hard to see why only Scotland of all the countries in the world would be incapable of handling its budget. Why do we never hear about all these poor independent countries that are struggling and anxiously looking about for someone to handle their money and business affairs as it is all too hard for them.
    Scotland unique in the world according to unionists, you have to laugh.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,521

    ".... back to washing up the roast dishes"

    I have just, at long last, finished and what a grisly task it was. Does anyone, and I am looking at the ladies particularly here, know how to cook a proper roast lunch with all the trimmings without generating a great pile of washing up? I am sure my late sister never had this problem, nor my mother or grandmother. So I strongly suspect that there are secrets of the kitchen that are only handed on down the female side.

    Hurst, you bung it all in the dishwasher.

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    Carlotta - "Hardly emphatic"? Yes, heaven forbid that the will of the majority should be respected - a 'non-emphatic minority' is probably enough to declare yourself the winners.

    Given that even you must know that what you said about the move for repeal doesn't contradict my point (indeed it repeats my point) I presume that's as gracious an acknowledgment of error as we can ever expect from you?
This discussion has been closed.