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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The PB/Polling Matters end of year podcast. Looking ahead t

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited December 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The PB/Polling Matters end of year podcast. Looking ahead to 2016 (WH2016, EURef & May elections)


In part 2 of the PB/Polling Matters End of 2015 special, Keiran, Rob and Matt look ahead to 2016 and discuss the race for the White House, EU referendum, May elections and more including:

Read the full story here


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    Looks around...left...right...nope, nobody here...FIRSTTTTTTTTT
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Don't worry I have a slightly more sad life than you ! Second. I just woke up from my early night "nap" !!!!
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    Thought of a great parallel OUT campaign my lefty friends can get behind...
    "Vote OUT and sack Nigel Farage from his MEP job."
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    old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    "Vote to leave and see Nick Clegg heave".
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    What is 70 Fahrenheit, is that a book?
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2015
    "It's safe to vote IN, there will never be an EU Army".... oh wait!

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/563490/Even-Nick-Clegg-disagrees-Deputy-PM-blasts-plans-EU-army-dangerous-fantasy
    "Jean-Claude Juncker and [Ukip leader] Nigel Farage are both dangerous fantasists when it comes to this issue," Mr Clegg said.

    “It's not going to happen. It doesn't matter whether Nigel Farage says it might happen or Jean-Claude Juncker says it might. He can't create a European army.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Pauly said:

    Thought of a great parallel OUT campaign my lefty friends can get behind...
    "Vote OUT and sack Nigel Farage from his MEP job."

    No way ! We want to be IN and that moron can claim his expenses too so we can have some fun !
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Dair said:

    What is 70 Fahrenheit, is that a book?

    I take it you're a Bradbury fan.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    edited December 2015
    1) Is identity politics replacing class as the number one issue defining our politics in the UK and elsewhere?

    When I read that I assumed it was talking about the Left's obsession with race, gender and sexuality. But I guess that it also applies to the likes of Trump and Farage. Ultimately, these things are not what most people think about when they vote and until Labour get back to talking about everyday people and their concerns (am I better off or worse off, etc.), they will never win another election.
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    tlg86 said:

    1) Is identity politics replacing class as the number one issue defining our politics in the UK and elsewhere?

    When I read that I assumed it was talking about the Left's obsession with race, gender and sexuality. But I guess that it also applies to the likes of Trump and Farage. Ultimately, these things are not what most people think about when they vote and until Labour get back to talking about everyday people and their concerns (am I better off or worse off, etc.), they will never win another election.

    I am grateful for the advice that "everyday people" are all white heterosexual males.

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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2015

    tlg86 said:

    1) Is identity politics replacing class as the number one issue defining our politics in the UK and elsewhere?

    When I read that I assumed it was talking about the Left's obsession with race, gender and sexuality. But I guess that it also applies to the likes of Trump and Farage. Ultimately, these things are not what most people think about when they vote and until Labour get back to talking about everyday people and their concerns (am I better off or worse off, etc.), they will never win another election.

    I am grateful for the advice that "everyday people" are all white heterosexual males.


    The left take the patronising and paternalist view that all people of color, or for that matter women think about is their race and/or gender, and that this necessarily trumps (excuse the pun) any other consideration they might have.

    Possibly some people think there are more useful dimensions upon which to base their world outlook than the colour of their skin and the number of ovaries they possess.... I believe even the majority.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    MTimT said:

    Dair said:

    What is 70 Fahrenheit, is that a book?

    I take it you're a Bradbury fan.
    70F is the auto-ignition temperature of Silane, not sure it has quite the same culture relevance as that of paper ;)
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    Indigo said:

    tlg86 said:

    1) Is identity politics replacing class as the number one issue defining our politics in the UK and elsewhere?

    When I read that I assumed it was talking about the Left's obsession with race, gender and sexuality. But I guess that it also applies to the likes of Trump and Farage. Ultimately, these things are not what most people think about when they vote and until Labour get back to talking about everyday people and their concerns (am I better off or worse off, etc.), they will never win another election.

    I am grateful for the advice that "everyday people" are all white heterosexual males.


    The left take the patronising and paternalist view that all people of color, or for that matter women think about is their race and/or gender, and that this necessarily trumps (excuse the pun) any other consideration they might have.

    Possibly some people think there are more useful dimensions upon which to base their world outlook than the colour of their skin and the number of ovaries they possess.... I believe even the majority.
    Are you American, Indigo? Why else might you spell the American way?

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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Incidentally for those following the development of the encryption idiocy. This article makes sobering reading (it's quite technical)

    http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2015/12/on-juniper-backdoor.html

    As international encryption expert Bruce Schneier put it, putting backdoors in hardware for the government is rather like putting your keys under the doormat and then hoping that only the police will use them

    https://www.schneier.com/cryptography/archives/2015/11/keys_under_doormats.html
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2015

    Indigo said:

    tlg86 said:

    1) Is identity politics replacing class as the number one issue defining our politics in the UK and elsewhere?

    When I read that I assumed it was talking about the Left's obsession with race, gender and sexuality. But I guess that it also applies to the likes of Trump and Farage. Ultimately, these things are not what most people think about when they vote and until Labour get back to talking about everyday people and their concerns (am I better off or worse off, etc.), they will never win another election.

    I am grateful for the advice that "everyday people" are all white heterosexual males.


    The left take the patronising and paternalist view that all people of color, or for that matter women think about is their race and/or gender, and that this necessarily trumps (excuse the pun) any other consideration they might have.

    Possibly some people think there are more useful dimensions upon which to base their world outlook than the colour of their skin and the number of ovaries they possess.... I believe even the majority.
    Are you American, Indigo? Why else might you spell the American way?

    No, I am a Brit, but I have been living in a former American colony, on and off for almost a decade. Bad habits have crept up on me, I used to grumble about American spelling, but slowly found myself doing it, I also eat with a spoon and fork, and stopped grumbling about eating rice twice a day, I think its what they call going native ;)
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    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    tlg86 said:

    1) Is identity politics replacing class as the number one issue defining our politics in the UK and elsewhere?

    When I read that I assumed it was talking about the Left's obsession with race, gender and sexuality. But I guess that it also applies to the likes of Trump and Farage. Ultimately, these things are not what most people think about when they vote and until Labour get back to talking about everyday people and their concerns (am I better off or worse off, etc.), they will never win another election.

    I am grateful for the advice that "everyday people" are all white heterosexual males.


    The left take the patronising and paternalist view that all people of color, or for that matter women think about is their race and/or gender, and that this necessarily trumps (excuse the pun) any other consideration they might have.

    Possibly some people think there are more useful dimensions upon which to base their world outlook than the colour of their skin and the number of ovaries they possess.... I believe even the majority.
    Are you American, Indigo? Why else might you spell the American way?

    No, I am a Brit, but I have been living in a former American colony, on and off for almost a decade. Bad habits have crept up on me, I used to grumble about American spelling, but slowly found myself doing it, I also eat with a spoon and fork, and stopped grumbling about eating rice twice a day, I think its what they call going native ;)
    Something similar happened to my father in his last years...

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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    tlg86 said:

    1) Is identity politics replacing class as the number one issue defining our politics in the UK and elsewhere?

    When I read that I assumed it was talking about the Left's obsession with race, gender and sexuality. But I guess that it also applies to the likes of Trump and Farage. Ultimately, these things are not what most people think about when they vote and until Labour get back to talking about everyday people and their concerns (am I better off or worse off, etc.), they will never win another election.

    I am grateful for the advice that "everyday people" are all white heterosexual males.


    The left take the patronising and paternalist view that all people of color, or for that matter women think about is their race and/or gender, and that this necessarily trumps (excuse the pun) any other consideration they might have.

    Possibly some people think there are more useful dimensions upon which to base their world outlook than the colour of their skin and the number of ovaries they possess.... I believe even the majority.
    Are you American, Indigo? Why else might you spell the American way?

    No, I am a Brit, but I have been living in a former American colony, on and off for almost a decade. Bad habits have crept up on me, I used to grumble about American spelling, but slowly found myself doing it, I also eat with a spoon and fork, and stopped grumbling about eating rice twice a day, I think its what they call going native ;)
    Something similar happened to my father in his last years...

    Hopefully I have few more years in me, I am not quite 50 yet!
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    New world order: Britain to become world's 4th largest econ as #France faces G8 exclusion. https://t.co/OQxopOIw4h https://t.co/1CreaABiu7
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Hope you all got nice presents for Christmas. And gave them too, of course.

    Identity politics, I hope, is a short-term trend of whining idiot children and one-eyed self-interested fools. Class will remain an issue, as it has been part of British thinking since Britain first existed, and part of English thinking since the Saxon, Jutes and Angles were divided into first and second class ships.

    Got a biography of Antigonus Monopthalmus, so I'm looking forward to getting further into it.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    New world order: Britain to become world's 4th largest econ as #France faces G8 exclusion. https://t.co/OQxopOIw4h https://t.co/1CreaABiu7

    Who'd have guessed that Hollande's socialism would see the economy on the slide.

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    Mr. 63, everyone?

    Pretty sure it was widely predicted.

    Crisis in the eurozone probably isn't helping. I wonder when that will flare up again. Greece being on the forefront of the Merkel-endorsed exodus probably won't help the national finances.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    edited December 2015

    Mr. 63, everyone?

    Pretty sure it was widely predicted.

    Crisis in the eurozone probably isn't helping. I wonder when that will flare up again. Greece being on the forefront of the Merkel-endorsed exodus probably won't help the national finances.

    Correct. The reason Corbyn is unelectable is nothing to do with terrorist friends or holidays with Diane Abbott, it's because his type of economics is doomed to failure.

    I read posts on here from people talking about public spending like its confetti, one or two get upset when I call them money tree shakers. Have a look at France if they feel offended.

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    Mr. 63, well... the idiocy of him being unhappy at the idea of shooting suicide bombers doesn't help.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Less than a tenth of 300 extremism tip-offs come directly from Muslim community or faith leaders.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214

    Good morning, everyone.

    Hope you all got nice presents for Christmas. And gave them too, of course.

    Identity politics, I hope, is a short-term trend of whining idiot children and one-eyed self-interested fools. Class will remain an issue, as it has been part of British thinking since Britain first existed, and part of English thinking since the Saxon, Jutes and Angles were divided into first and second class ships.

    Got a biography of Antigonus Monopthalmus, so I'm looking forward to getting further into it.

    "Whining idiot children" is about right.

    The attached article is quite interesting on the topic of "identity" - http://www.spiked-online.com/spiked-review/article/the-crisis-of-character#.Vn5QAq_fWrU.

    And then are the politicians who love community politics because it makes it easy for lazy politicians to interact with only a few leaders and to think about and categorise people in a one- dimensional way rather than understand and appreciate their infinite variety.

    "Identity politics" is from Planet Stupid.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Less than a tenth of 300 extremism tip-offs come directly from Muslim community or faith leaders.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    I'm not sure I like that article, I'd guess at least 90% of Muslims have no information whatever on extremism or terror attacks.

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    Less than a tenth of 300 extremism tip-offs come directly from Muslim community or faith leaders.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    Correlation =/= Causation: We spend £billions on spooks for a reason. Non-story. [Sadly!]
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    Mr. 63, everyone?

    Pretty sure it was widely predicted.

    Crisis in the eurozone probably isn't helping. I wonder when that will flare up again. Greece being on the forefront of the Merkel-endorsed exodus probably won't help the national finances.

    Correct. The reason Corbyn is unelectable is nothing to do with terrorist friends or holidays with Diane Abbott, it's because his type of economics is doomed to failure.

    I read posts on here from people talking about public spending like its confetti, one or two get upset when I call them money tree shakers. Have a look at France if they feel offended.

    Let's consider two fantasy economies, both with a population of 10. In A, everyone's income is $100 p.a., national income $1,000. In B, one person has an income of $600, the other nine $60. National income $1,140. Which would you rather live in?

    Economic history suggests that the quickest and easiest way to increase national income is to increase income inequality.

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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Mr. 63, everyone?

    Pretty sure it was widely predicted.

    Crisis in the eurozone probably isn't helping. I wonder when that will flare up again. Greece being on the forefront of the Merkel-endorsed exodus probably won't help the national finances.

    Correct. The reason Corbyn is unelectable is nothing to do with terrorist friends or holidays with Diane Abbott, it's because his type of economics is doomed to failure.

    I read posts on here from people talking about public spending like its confetti, one or two get upset when I call them money tree shakers. Have a look at France if they feel offended.

    Let's consider two fantasy economies, both with a population of 10. In A, everyone's income is $100 p.a., national income $1,000. In B, one person has an income of $600, the other nine $60. National income $1,140. Which would you rather live in?

    Economic history suggests that the quickest and easiest way to increase national income is to increase income inequality.

    I'm sorry to say I have no idea what you're talking about.
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    Mr. Abroad, or consider a street where there are 5 houses. One is inhabited by a man who makes a million a year, the other 4 by people on average incomes. If the millionaire leaves, equality is total. But is that a better situation?

    What matters is reducing absolute poverty, not fiddling about with inequality. Someone else earning more money or having a higher pay rise than me doesn't make me poorer.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Mr. Abroad, or consider a street where there are 5 houses. One is inhabited by a man who makes a million a year, the other 4 by people on average incomes. If the millionaire leaves, equality is total. But is that a better situation?

    What matters is reducing absolute poverty, not fiddling about with inequality. Someone else earning more money or having a higher pay rise than me doesn't make me poorer.

    It doesn't make you poorer but it makes plenty resentful. They vote labour.
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    Mr. 63, quite.
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    Mr. Abroad, or consider a street where there are 5 houses. One is inhabited by a man who makes a million a year, the other 4 by people on average incomes. If the millionaire leaves, equality is total. But is that a better situation?

    What matters is reducing absolute poverty, not fiddling about with inequality. Someone else earning more money or having a higher pay rise than me doesn't make me poorer.

    Well, what matters is how people feel about things, not how they cerebrate. The IEA view of the world assumes that people only have heads, but not hearts. Homo economicus is a mere machine.

    As to your example, if the millionaire's departure reduces prices in local shops, yes it is better. If she was the only local employer, maybe not.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Millionaire is so last year.. How many people have houses worth a million quid but have incomes not far from those on average incomes
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    Mr. Root, maybe in London...
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    I always had the impression that Mao and Uncle Joe went down the equality route...worked well for them..there's a word for it...it failed because they forgot to add in the human factor..
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Mr. Root, maybe in London...

    no .. anywhere in the South of England..
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    Just an aside, as it's a festive/slow news period.

    This is a screenshot (probably 4K, mind) from The Witcher 3:
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWhfrfSUsAADGWh.jpg:large

    If games firms can marry graphics like that to VR, we could see some crazy games in the next 5-10 years (so far, early VR games seem focused on horror and the obvious pilot genre).

    Big issue seems to be locomotion. In-game hands could be solved by progress with gloves that register in VR, but moving around seems a bugger. Some sort of treadmill could work but that's a pain in the arse (needs, money, room, and it's hard to believe it could properly mirror the VR world).
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    Mr. Dodd, for a moment I thought 'Mao and Uncle Joe' was a reference to the Shadow Chancellor and Leader of the Opposition :p

    Mr. Root, I'll take your word for it. Not been south for ages. Last time was probably a family holiday in Devon.
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    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited December 2015

    I always had the impression that Mao and Uncle Joe went down the equality route...worked well for them..there's a word for it...it failed because they forgot to add in the human factor..

    Please say more. There is a POV that says "I don't care how much or how little I have, just so long as the folk I dislike have less". Is that what you mean?

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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    edited December 2015
    Mr63,

    Unfortunately, resentment is what fuels politics. The old seven-year-old's moan of "it's not fair." And it gives a feeling of superiority to point it out - a double whammy. So if you earn more than most, you can still gain the warm feeling by campaigning on behalf of any other group you like. Obviously giving your own money or getting your own hands dirty is out of the question.

    So let's give a genuine Merry Christmas to those who do genuinely care. Volunteers, Charities whose CE doesn't earn £150,000 a year, the Salvation Army. Even the odd footballer, although they are few and far between.

    Not the journalists and column writers whose crocodile tears earn them a fortune.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006

    Less than a tenth of 300 extremism tip-offs come directly from Muslim community or faith leaders.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    I would have thought that - whatever the type of terrorism - well over half of tip off would come from partners or loved ones. ("Oh my God, my husband's about to kill some people and he won't listen to reason...")
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    1) Cook out in the third over

    2)RED warning by Met Office for rain in parts of LANCASHIRE who are going to cop it 4 inches or so by reckoning over 6-9 hrs


    26 December 2015 - A Red 'take action' warning for rainfall has been issued for parts of Lancashire today.

    A band of rain will become slow-moving for a time today across Lancashire. 50 to 80 mm is expected to fall in a 6 to 9 hour period through to early afternoon, with over 100 mm likely over high ground over a longer period of time. It is the intensity of this rainfall, on already saturated ground that has sparked the issuing of the Met Office's most severe warning. This is expected to lead to widespread river flooding and surface water flooding

    Amber and Yellow warnings are also in place for other parts of Lancashire, Cumbria, northwest Wales and parts of Scotland. The Amber 'be prepared' warning covers those areas more sensitive to the expected rainfall, and covers parts of northwest England, including Cumbria, Lancashire, western parts of both North and West Yorkshire, as well as parts of Merseyside and Greater Manchester.

    The yellow 'be aware' warning area is larger and spreads down into North Wales and north, just into southern Scotland. A further 50 to 80 mm of rain is likely quite widely across the yellow and amber warning areas. Please be aware of the potential for flooding and some disruption to transport.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Mr Root ..not so..I have family who live in London.. only my ex wife has a property,2 bed flat,that is worth over a million.. one daughter has a four bed,two bath, house in Ealing which has been priced at well under a mil..and several friends have properties all over London and Kent that would love to be offered a million...they would sell like a shot..
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    Mr. Root, aye, bad news for Cumbria in particular.

    Had a lot of rain here already. Lucky with the particular site of the house (if we get flooded, most of Yorkshire would be underwater) but I expect local flooding may well occur.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good Morning all.

    The Times lead is interesting. Even the Times are beginning to see the light and the fire thats been started under British society.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    MikeK said:

    Good Morning all.

    The Times lead is interesting. Even the Times are beginning to see the light and the fire thats been started under British society.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    Perhaps they stayed silent because they didn't know..
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited December 2015
    UA.. no..and the rest of your post was gibberish
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Class IS identity politics. Shifting social groups based on shared characteristics and identity. And it only has a loose relationship to money, before anyone brings that up (posh lady in a council house / chav lottery winner examples spring to mind)
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    MikeK said:

    Good Morning all.

    The Times lead is interesting. Even the Times are beginning to see the light and the fire thats been started under British society.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    Perhaps they stayed silent because they didn't know..
    and its typical of a kipper to post this, ISAM did something similar yesterday, and of course its not racist , of course not, heaven forbid.
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    MikeK said:

    Good Morning all.

    The Times lead is interesting. Even the Times are beginning to see the light and the fire thats been started under British society.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    The only surprise is that anyone's surprised. If you feel any loyalty to this country then you're like Saqid Javed - an ex-Muslim (his phrase, not mine).
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr Abroad,

    "I don't care how much or how little I have, just so long as the folk I dislike have less."

    An Irish Marxist once called it tuppence halfpenny looking down on tuppence.

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    CD13 said:

    Mr Abroad,

    "I don't care how much or how little I have, just so long as the folk I dislike have less."

    An Irish Marxist once called it tuppence halfpenny looking down on tuppence.

    Indeed.

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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214
    edited December 2015

    Less than a tenth of 300 extremism tip-offs come directly from Muslim community.

    I'm not sure I like that article, I'd guess at least 90% of Muslims have no information whatever on extremism or terror attacks.

    That may well be so for the majority but terrorists don't operate in a vacuum. Pretending that they do and that those around them may not be a good source of intelligence and information is silly. And if those around don't speak up when there plainly is a problem then that too is an issue.

    Human intelligence is some of the best. It is one reason, for instance, why in banking there is such focus on getting reports from people about potentially suspicious transactions, orders and activities. It is one reason why the authorities are so focused on telling people that they will face action if they turn a blind eye to suspicious behaviour which they should have noticed and reported but didn't. The message is going out that turning a blind eye, claiming that the culture which is created by the majority of non-crooks in banking does not have anything to do with the relative freedom with which crooks can operate is no longer acceptable because it does, because turning a blind eye does matter.

    There is and has been for far too long an area of moral ambiguity in which crooked bankers can operate. The same applies to Islamist terrorists. Too many people are too willing to excuse, justify, contextualise, trivialise, apologise for what it happens. We saw it after Charlie Hebdo, after the attacks on Jewish supermarkets and synagogues, after the November attacks. An inability categorically to condemn violence and its ideological foundations or - in the case of banking - a culture of greed and entitlement, is what gives the terrorists, however relatively few in number they may be, a multiplier effect.

    The concern is that while the terrorists may be few in number, there is a larger group of sympathisers, who explicitly or implicitly allow the terrorists the space to operate, allow the terrorists to believe they are acting on behalf of others (always attractive to those who are about to transgress the belief that they are the "advance guard") and that they don't put a distance between themselves and the terrorists because deep down they are fellow travellers and share the same ideological world view.

    It is easy for the banker who goes over the line to make some money to think that what he was doing was wanted by his boss. Believe me, I've heard that song often enough. Now we focus on his manager. The manager needs to show how he ensured that this did not happen. Saying "Of course, I didn't approve" without any actual action will get you nowhere. Rightly IMO. We should stop treating Muslims like children who can be excused from making adult moral choices. They are both worth better than that and deserve better.
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    Happy Christmas all.

    Can any of our technically gifted posters point me at software that will manage a small GP surgery intranet? About 200 forms and letters to access from each PC on a network, with a search function (so, for example, a form for hearing aid clinic referral could be found under 'hearing' or 'audiology').

    I have looked at some of the advertised software products and they seem to be very expensive and aimed at managing 1000's of documents.

    Can be web-based, but musn't involve anything complicated for updating.

    Many thanks, in anticipation.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited December 2015
    There are obviously a large number of Marxists in Ireland..they have an annual gathering and rally in Cheltenham
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    Do suicide bombers normally talk things over with the Imam first then? This sounds like The Times has the same problem as the BBC: all the grown ups have taken Christmas off. Maybe they should hire more Muslims.

    Less than a tenth of 300 extremism tip-offs come directly from Muslim community or faith leaders.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

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    Less than a tenth of 300 extremism tip-offs come directly from Muslim community or faith leaders.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    Can't read it because it's paywalled but the relevant metric is tip-offs that actually check out.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006

    I always had the impression that Mao and Uncle Joe went down the equality route...worked well for them..there's a word for it...it failed because they forgot to add in the human factor..

    Please say more. There is a POV that says "I don't care how much or how little I have, just so long as the folk I dislike have less". Is that what you mean?

    There was a study of Harvard Business School students in the early 1990s, and they were asked:

    "Would you rather the US economy grew at 3.5% per year, and the Japanese at 4.0%; or the US economy grew at 2.0% and the Japanese at 1.0%?"

    The vast majority of people chose the latter option.
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    CD13 said:

    Mr63,

    Unfortunately, resentment is what fuels politics. The old seven-year-old's moan of "it's not fair."

    People have presumably forgotten what their mothers told them: life isn't fair.

  • Options

    Happy Christmas all.

    Can any of our technically gifted posters point me at software that will manage a small GP surgery intranet? About 200 forms and letters to access from each PC on a network, with a search function (so, for example, a form for hearing aid clinic referral could be found under 'hearing' or 'audiology').

    I have looked at some of the advertised software products and they seem to be very expensive and aimed at managing 1000's of documents.

    Can be web-based, but musn't involve anything complicated for updating.

    Many thanks, in anticipation.

    Go with the advertised solutions that are aimed at GP surgeries. The downsides are the price and that your practice web site will look the same as all the rest, but these are outweighed by the ease of recruiting staff who already know how to use it, interaction with external systems like pharmacies for repeat prescriptions, and of course the savings on the massive fine for breaching data privacy laws.
  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    rcs1000...that would be the "Human Factor" then...ask that question in any University in any country...and the answer would be the same.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    edited December 2015

    MikeK said:

    Good Morning all.

    The Times lead is interesting. Even the Times are beginning to see the light and the fire thats been started under British society.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    Perhaps they stayed silent because they didn't know..
    and its typical of a kipper to post this, ISAM did something similar yesterday, and of course its not racist , of course not, heaven forbid.
    Hahahahaha

    Yes that nasty Times for reporting that someone has noticed that Muslim community leaders are blocking a programme that tries to find out who is trying to kill us all. Shame on me for mentioning it

    Maybe if we don't mention it, it will just go away?

    Shhhhhhhhhhh
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    I always had the impression that Mao and Uncle Joe went down the equality route...worked well for them..there's a word for it...it failed because they forgot to add in the human factor..

    Please say more. There is a POV that says "I don't care how much or how little I have, just so long as the folk I dislike have less". Is that what you mean?

    There was a study of Harvard Business School students in the early 1990s, and they were asked:

    "Would you rather the US economy grew at 3.5% per year, and the Japanese at 4.0%; or the US economy grew at 2.0% and the Japanese at 1.0%?"

    The vast majority of people chose the latter option.
    http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/08/06/succeed-fail/

    Seasons greetings to all at PB.
  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Just watched a Sky piece about the sales..It seemed that approx 90% of the people filing past in the background in one big store were from the Far East
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    CD13 said:

    Mr63,

    Unfortunately, resentment is what fuels politics. The old seven-year-old's moan of "it's not fair." And it gives a feeling of superiority to point it out - a double whammy. So if you earn more than most, you can still gain the warm feeling by campaigning on behalf of any other group you like. Obviously giving your own money or getting your own hands dirty is out of the question.

    So let's give a genuine Merry Christmas to those who do genuinely care. Volunteers, Charities whose CE doesn't earn £150,000 a year, the Salvation Army. Even the odd footballer, although they are few and far between.

    Not the journalists and column writers whose crocodile tears earn them a fortune.

    Well said.

    But not just journalists, politicians are as culpable, they seem to think they know what's best for the rest of us. The best example for me is Yvette Cooper who tilts her head to one side and simpers, or that ghastly Tory, first name is Matthew, who is small business minister or something. A more patronising tosser you'll struggle to find.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006

    Do suicide bombers normally talk things over with the Imam first then? This sounds like The Times has the same problem as the BBC: all the grown ups have taken Christmas off. Maybe they should hire more Muslims.

    Less than a tenth of 300 extremism tip-offs come directly from Muslim community or faith leaders.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    There's a simple way to check if this is a problem:

    Compare it with the proportion of tip-offs during the troubles that came from Catholic priests. If it is comparable, no problem; if it is dramatically lower, then there's an issue.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214
    edited December 2015

    MikeK said:

    Good Morning all.

    The Times lead is interesting. Even the Times are beginning to see the light and the fire thats been started under British society.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    Perhaps they stayed silent because they didn't know..
    I have done a lot of investigations in my time. And when I go to interview others about the person or desk under investigation, I don't often get surprise at why I am asking questions about the individual under investigation. Quite often the response has been "I wondered when someone would do something about that crook" or "that desk of crooks". People stayed silent not because they didn't know or suspect but because they did not see it as their obligation to speak up, because they did not realise that their silence reflected badly on them, no matter how well they did their job,no matter that they weren't a crook.

    Read the report of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards and the section on silence and whistleblowing. The culture of denial and silence it describes in banking could just as easily describe the culture of silence and denial that exists in too many parts of the Muslim community. When I read about some Muslim leaders and mosques refusing to co-operate with Prevent because they are more worried about how it will make them look, I see people whose concern with the appearance of things, with the appearance of "honour" rather than with the reality has badly skewed their moral compass. They need calling out on this.


  • Options

    Happy Christmas all.

    Can any of our technically gifted posters point me at software that will manage a small GP surgery intranet? About 200 forms and letters to access from each PC on a network, with a search function (so, for example, a form for hearing aid clinic referral could be found under 'hearing' or 'audiology').

    I have looked at some of the advertised software products and they seem to be very expensive and aimed at managing 1000's of documents.

    Can be web-based, but musn't involve anything complicated for updating.

    Many thanks, in anticipation.

    What format are the forms and letters? For example, are you just trying to store and search for MS Office documents? You might want to look at the standard Microsoft stuff like Office 365.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    MikeK said:

    Good Morning all.

    The Times lead is interesting. Even the Times are beginning to see the light and the fire thats been started under British society.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    Perhaps they stayed silent because they didn't know..
    and its typical of a kipper to post this, ISAM did something similar yesterday, and of course its not racist , of course not, heaven forbid.
    You think The Times is motivated by racial prejudice?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    As an aside, @EdmundInTokyo made a point earlier on that bears repeating:

    The most important metric is not percentage of tip offs per se, but percentage in tip offs that check out.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    rcs1000 said:

    Do suicide bombers normally talk things over with the Imam first then? This sounds like The Times has the same problem as the BBC: all the grown ups have taken Christmas off. Maybe they should hire more Muslims.

    Less than a tenth of 300 extremism tip-offs come directly from Muslim community or faith leaders.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    There's a simple way to check if this is a problem:

    Compare it with the proportion of tip-offs during the troubles that came from Catholic priests. If it is comparable, no problem; if it is dramatically lower, then there's an issue.
    That was my point, if Muslims are tipping off 10% I'd say that's a pretty high figure.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    rcs1000 said:

    I always had the impression that Mao and Uncle Joe went down the equality route...worked well for them..there's a word for it...it failed because they forgot to add in the human factor..

    Please say more. There is a POV that says "I don't care how much or how little I have, just so long as the folk I dislike have less". Is that what you mean?

    There was a study of Harvard Business School students in the early 1990s, and they were asked:

    "Would you rather the US economy grew at 3.5% per year, and the Japanese at 4.0%; or the US economy grew at 2.0% and the Japanese at 1.0%?"

    The vast majority of people chose the latter option.
    That's not necessarily irrational at a geopolitical level, if people are concerned that the faster-growing country will become more influential than one's own.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    Cyclefree said:

    MikeK said:

    Good Morning all.

    The Times lead is interesting. Even the Times are beginning to see the light and the fire thats been started under British society.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    Perhaps they stayed silent because they didn't know..
    I have done a lot of investigations in my time. And when I go to interview others about the person or desk under investigation, I don't often get surprise at why I am asking questions about the individual under investigation. Quite often the response has been "I wondered when someone would do something about that crook" or "that desk of crooks". People stayed silent not because they didn't know or suspect but because they did not see it as their obligation to speak up, because they did not realise that their silence reflected badly on them, no matter how well they did their job,no matter that they weren't a crook.

    Read the report of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards and the section on silence and whistleblowing. The culture of denial and silence it describes in banking could just as easily describe the culture of silence and denial that exists in too many parts of the Muslim community. When I read about some Muslim leaders and mosques refusing to co-operate with Prevent because they are more worried about how it will make them look, I see people whose concern with the appearance of things, with the appearance of "honour" rather than with the reality has badly skewed their moral compass. They need calling out on this.


    To repeat my earlier comment: is only 10% from religious leaders that uncommon? One would expect that the vast majority of tip-offs are going to come from family members (wives, mothers, etc.).

    If 60% come from family members, then the rest might divide into roughly equally quarters: religious leaders, neighbors, friends, other.

    It's also important to compare the proportion to other religious leaders and terrorism. What proportion of IRA tip-offs came from priests? I would guess not a very high proportion either.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,931

    rcs1000 said:

    Do suicide bombers normally talk things over with the Imam first then? This sounds like The Times has the same problem as the BBC: all the grown ups have taken Christmas off. Maybe they should hire more Muslims.

    Less than a tenth of 300 extremism tip-offs come directly from Muslim community or faith leaders.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    There's a simple way to check if this is a problem:

    Compare it with the proportion of tip-offs during the troubles that came from Catholic priests. If it is comparable, no problem; if it is dramatically lower, then there's an issue.
    That was my point, if Muslims are tipping off 10% I'd say that's a pretty high figure.
    Rotherham all over again

    The cretins that cry "raaaaacist" never learn, they just have a hard on to feel good about themselves

    The blood and bodily fluids of the victims is on their virtue signalling hands
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Sean_F said:

    MikeK said:

    Good Morning all.

    The Times lead is interesting. Even the Times are beginning to see the light and the fire thats been started under British society.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    Perhaps they stayed silent because they didn't know..
    and its typical of a kipper to post this, ISAM did something similar yesterday, and of course its not racist , of course not, heaven forbid.
    You think The Times is motivated by racial prejudice?
    NO but I think kippers are, that's why Mike K posted it..
  • Options
    Cyclefree said:


    That may well be so for the majority but terrorists don't operate in a vacuum. Pretending that they do and that those around them may not be a good source of intelligence and information is silly. And if those around don't speak up when there plainly is a problem then that too is an issue.

    There is and has been for far too long an area of moral ambiguity in which crooked bankers can operate. The same applies to Islamist terrorists. Too many people are too willing to excuse, justify, contextualise, trivialise, apologise for what it happens. We saw it after Charlie Hebdo, after the attacks on Jewish supermarkets and synagogues, after the November attacks. An inability categorically to condemn violence and its ideological foundations or - in the case of banking - a culture of greed and entitlement, is what gives the terrorists, however relatively few in number they may be, a multiplier effect.

    The concern is that while the terrorists may be few in number, there is a larger group of sympathisers, who explicitly or implicitly allow the terrorists the space to operate, allow the terrorists to believe they are acting on behalf of others (always attractive to those who are about to transgress the belief that they are the "advance guard") and that they don't put a distance between themselves and the terrorists because deep down they are fellow travellers and share the same ideological world view.

    It is easy for the banker who goes over the line to make some money to think that what he was doing was wanted by his boss. Believe me, I've heard that song often enough. Now we focus on his manager. The manager needs to show how he ensured that this did not happen. Saying "Of course, I didn't approve" without any actual action will get you nowhere. Rightly IMO. We should stop treating Muslims like children who can be excused from making adult moral choices. They are both worth better than that and deserve better.

    And the same code of silence happens with corrupt and child abusing politicians, corrupt and child abusing BBC celebs, corrupt and child abusing Catholic priests, corrupt and child abusing plods, for medical staff at death-trap hospitals and for FGM and industrial scale racist child rape among Muslim communities.

    Everyone always knows nothing about anything. And if anyone asks inconvenient questions the default response is to scream abuse.

    This pattern is most prevalent in cultist, supremacist ** organisations,

    Note that the BBC, NHS, parliament, plods are supremacist - 'envy of the world', 'mother of parliaments' etc.

  • Options

    Cyclefree said:


    That may well be so for the majority but terrorists don't operate in a vacuum. Pretending that they do and that those around them may not be a good source of intelligence and information is silly. And if those around don't speak up when there plainly is a problem then that too is an issue.

    There is and has been for far too long an area of moral ambiguity in which crooked bankers can operate. The same applies to Islamist terrorists. Too many people are too willing to excuse, justify, contextualise, trivialise, apologise for what it happens. We saw it after Charlie Hebdo, after the attacks on Jewish supermarkets and synagogues, after the November attacks. An inability categorically to condemn violence and its ideological foundations or - in the case of banking - a culture of greed and entitlement, is what gives the terrorists, however relatively few in number they may be, a multiplier effect.

    The concern is that while the terrorists may be few in number, there is a larger group of sympathisers, who explicitly or implicitly allow the terrorists the space to operate, allow the terrorists to believe they are acting on behalf of others (always attractive to those who are about to transgress the belief that they are the "advance guard") and that they don't put a distance between themselves and the terrorists because deep down they are fellow travellers and share the same ideological world view.

    It is easy for the banker who goes over the line to make some money to think that what he was doing was wanted by his boss. Believe me, I've heard that song often enough. Now we focus on his manager. The manager needs to show how he ensured that this did not happen. Saying "Of course, I didn't approve" without any actual action will get you nowhere. Rightly IMO. We should stop treating Muslims like children who can be excused from making adult moral choices. They are both worth better than that and deserve better.

    And the same code of silence happens with corrupt and child abusing politicians, corrupt and child abusing BBC celebs, corrupt and child abusing Catholic priests, corrupt and child abusing plods, for medical staff at death-trap hospitals and for FGM and industrial scale racist child rape among Muslim communities.

    Everyone always knows nothing about anything. And if anyone asks inconvenient questions the default response is to scream abuse.

    This pattern is most prevalent in cultist, supremacist ** organisations,

    Note that the BBC, NHS, parliament, plods are supremacist - 'envy of the world', 'mother of parliaments' etc.

    Here is another possibility: all those people wise after the event actually knew nothing before it.
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    Mr. L, that's allegedly not the case in Rotherham. There are reports that at some instances, police officers were actually present.
  • Options

    Cyclefree said:


    That may well be so for the majority but terrorists don't operate in a vacuum. Pretending that they do and that those around them may not be a good source of intelligence and information is silly. And if those around don't speak up when there plainly is a problem then that too is an issue.

    There is and has been for far too long an area of moral ambiguity in which crooked bankers can operate. The same applies to Islamist terrorists. Too many people are too willing to excuse, justify, contextualise, trivialise, apologise for what it happens. We saw it after Charlie Hebdo, after the attacks on Jewish supermarkets and synagogues, after the November attacks. An inability categorically to condemn violence and its ideological foundations or - in the case of banking - a culture of greed and entitlement, is what gives the terrorists, however relatively few in number they may be, a multiplier effect.

    The concern is that while the terrorists may be few in number, there is a larger group of sympathisers, who explicitly or implicitly allow the terrorists the space to operate, allow the terrorists to believe they are acting on behalf of others (always attractive to those who are about to transgress the belief that they are the "advance guard") and that they don't put a distance between themselves and the terrorists because deep down they are fellow travellers and share the same ideological world view.

    It is easy for the banker who goes over the line to make some money to think that what he was doing was wanted by his boss. Believe me, I've heard that song often enough. Now we focus on his manager. The manager needs to show how he ensured that this did not happen. Saying "Of course, I didn't approve" without any actual action will get you nowhere. Rightly IMO. We should stop treating Muslims like children who can be excused from making adult moral choices. They are both worth better than that and deserve better.

    And the same code of silence happens with corrupt and child abusing politicians, corrupt and child abusing BBC celebs, corrupt and child abusing Catholic priests, corrupt and child abusing plods, for medical staff at death-trap hospitals and for FGM and industrial scale racist child rape among Muslim communities.

    Everyone always knows nothing about anything. And if anyone asks inconvenient questions the default response is to scream abuse.

    This pattern is most prevalent in cultist, supremacist ** organisations,

    Note that the BBC, NHS, parliament, plods are supremacist - 'envy of the world', 'mother of parliaments' etc.

    Is there more of a "code of silence" at the Beeb than at other broadcasters?

  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    edited December 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    Do suicide bombers normally talk things over with the Imam first then? This sounds like The Times has the same problem as the BBC: all the grown ups have taken Christmas off. Maybe they should hire more Muslims.

    Less than a tenth of 300 extremism tip-offs come directly from Muslim community or faith leaders.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4649979.ece

    There's a simple way to check if this is a problem:

    Compare it with the proportion of tip-offs during the troubles that came from Catholic priests. If it is comparable, no problem; if it is dramatically lower, then there's an issue.
    The report says in East London the Imams are warning people not talk to Prevent. So the muslim community are ready to scapegoat anyone who "grasses"

    #onenation
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    rcs1000 said:

    If 60% come from family members, then the rest might divide into roughly equally quarters: religious leaders, neighbors, friends, other.

    This is anecdotal but when you read through the detail of reports about thwarted plots it seems like nearly all the heavy lifting of Western anti-terrorism activity is being done by would-be-terrorists' mums.

    http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-14/funds-meant-for-islamic-state-group-found-in-laundry-court-hears/7026368
    http://abc7.com/news/oc-man-planned-to-join-terrorist-group-isis/200764/
    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/03/convicted-jihad-terrorist-whines-that-his-mother-and-the-fbi-violated-his-rights
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,931

    Cyclefree said:


    That may well be so for the majority but terrorists don't operate in a vacuum. Pretending that they do and that those around them may not be a good source of intelligence and information is silly. And if those around don't speak up when there plainly is a problem then that too is an issue.

    There is and has been for far too long an area of moral ambiguity in which crooked bankers can operate. The same applies to Islamist terrorists. Too many people are too willing to excuse, justify, contextualise, trivialise, apologise for what it happens. We saw it after Charlie Hebdo, after the attacks on Jewish supermarkets and synagogues, after the November attacks. An inability categorically to condemn violence and its ideological foundations or - in the case of banking - a culture of greed and entitlement, is what gives the terrorists, however relatively few in number they may be, a multiplier effect.

    The concern is that while the terrorists may be few in number, there is a larger group of sympathisers, who explicitly or implicitly allow the terrorists the space to operate, allow the terrorists to believe they are acting on behalf of others (always attractive to those who are about to transgress the belief that they are the "advance guard") and that they don't put a distance between themselves and the terrorists because deep down they are fellow travellers and share the same ideological world view.

    It is easy for the banker who goes over the line to make some money to think that what he was doing was wanted by his boss. Believe me, I've heard that song often enough. Now we focus on his manager. The manager needs to show how he ensured that this did not happen. Saying "Of course, I didn't approve" without any actual action will get you nowhere. Rightly IMO. We should stop treating Muslims like children who can be excused from making adult moral choices. They are both worth better than that and deserve better.

    And the same code of silence happens with corrupt and child abusing politicians, corrupt and child abusing BBC celebs, corrupt and child abusing Catholic priests, corrupt and child abusing plods, for medical staff at death-trap hospitals and for FGM and industrial scale racist child rape among Muslim communities.

    Everyone always knows nothing about anything. And if anyone asks inconvenient questions the default response is to scream abuse.

    This pattern is most prevalent in cultist, supremacist ** organisations,

    Note that the BBC, NHS, parliament, plods are supremacist - 'envy of the world', 'mother of parliaments' etc.

    Here is another possibility: all those people wise after the event actually knew nothing before it.
    My mum worked in Tower Hamlets council for 20 years and everyone knew about the dodgy voting practices
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    2015 will have the lowest household saving ratio on record:

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data-selector.html?cdid=NRJS&dataset=qna&table-id=J3

    This was referenced on the Sun front page last week.

    Thou shalt consume and consume and consume and consume being the great economic commandment.

    I dare say the BBC have already been reporting from shopping centres.

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    In the absence of any real news bar the flooding and given the fact that this is the only time of year that I have any time on my hands I took a quick look at PB.

    I am sorry I did.

    At this time of year I would expect to see a bit of reflection, a few forecasts and hopefully a little humour. Instead we have todays's site contaminated by humourless anti-Muslim rants. Perhaps a little reflection on the meaning of Christmas tide would enable these poor souls with nothing better to do this Boxing Day to see the world in a slightly less prejudiced way - or perhaps not.

    By the way don't bother to tell me how naive/lefty/SNP I am. Like most normal folk I am off to offer up the turkey in a slightly different way from yesterday.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Good morning, everyone.

    Hope you all got nice presents for Christmas. And gave them too, of course.

    Identity politics, I hope, is a short-term trend of whining idiot children and one-eyed self-interested fools. Class will remain an issue, as it has been part of British thinking since Britain first existed, and part of English thinking since the Saxon, Jutes and Angles were divided into first and second class ships.

    Got a biography of Antigonus Monopthalmus, so I'm looking forward to getting further into it.

    Whiny idiot children are to be seen across the political spectrum. How often do we read in these comments how the WWC stands as one behind Farage, or how Muslims are all subversives enemies of Albion, or how the BBC is traitorously aligned to the EU?

    All nonsense of course, real people are more complex and have multiple affinities. It is simpler though for political parties of all stripes to depict us all as sheep defined by gender, class, race or occupation.

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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    scotslass said:

    In the absence of any real news bar the flooding and given the fact that this is the only time of year that I have any time on my hands I took a quick look at PB.

    I am sorry I did.

    At this time of year I would expect to see a bit of reflection, a few forecasts and hopefully a little humour. Instead we have todays's site contaminated by humourless anti-Muslim rants. Perhaps a little reflection on the meaning of Christmas tide would enable these poor souls with nothing better to do this Boxing Day to see the world in a slightly less prejudiced way - or perhaps not.

    By the way don't bother to tell me how naive/lefty/SNP I am. Like most normal folk I am off to offer up the turkey in a slightly different way from yesterday.

    Don't comment on the front pages at Christmas? Ok
  • Options

    Cyclefree said:


    That may well be so for the majority but terrorists don't operate in a vacuum. Pretending that they do and that those around them may not be a good source of intelligence and information is silly. And if those around don't speak up when there plainly is a problem then that too is an issue.

    There is and has been for far too long an area of moral ambiguity in which crooked bankers can operate. The same applies to Islamist terrorists. Too many people are too willing to excuse, justify, contextualise, trivialise, apologise for what it happens. We saw it after Charlie Hebdo, after the attacks on Jewish supermarkets and synagogues, after the November attacks. An inability categorically to condemn violence and its ideological foundations or - in the case of banking - a culture of greed and entitlement, is what gives the terrorists, however relatively few in number they may be, a multiplier effect.

    It is easy for the banker who goes over the line to make some money to think that what he was doing was wanted by his boss. Believe me, I've heard that song often enough. Now we focus on his manager. The manager needs to show how he ensured that this did not happen. Saying "Of course, I didn't approve" without any actual action will get you nowhere. Rightly IMO. We should stop treating Muslims like children who can be excused from making adult moral choices. They are both worth better than that and deserve better.

    And the same code of silence happens with corrupt and child abusing politicians, corrupt and child abusing BBC celebs, corrupt and child abusing Catholic priests, corrupt and child abusing plods, for medical staff at death-trap hospitals and for FGM and industrial scale racist child rape among Muslim communities.

    Everyone always knows nothing about anything. And if anyone asks inconvenient questions the default response is to scream abuse.

    This pattern is most prevalent in cultist, supremacist ** organisations,

    Note that the BBC, NHS, parliament, plods are supremacist - 'envy of the world', 'mother of parliaments' etc.

    Is there more of a "code of silence" at the Beeb than at other broadcasters?

    Jimmy Saville, Stuart Hall, Rolf Harris were all BBC. Then there was the tax dodging and Kids Company scandals.

    Perhaps the ITV companies were better at keeping things quiet or perhaps people with those proclivities gravitated to an organisation where they knew things would be overlooked.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited December 2015
    On plots, my barrister brother in law yesterday was quite encouraging at xmas lunch.

    firearms really are a no-no in Britain. The police are all over it and the law draconian. If you are caught with a single handgun and ammunition, you are looking at 10 years. Intent to supply is fifteen.

    When you get to modern assault rifles and such, the sky is the limit.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    edited December 2015
    Dr. Foxinsox, Kippers tend not to advocate tearing down statues or dictating acceptable vocabulary, though. Or, for that matter, actively endorsing racial discrimination in the workplace.

    Edited extra bit: still utterly pissing it down.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214
    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MikeK said:

    ..


    Read the report of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards and the section on silence and whistleblowing. The culture of denial and silence it describes in banking could just as easily describe the culture of silence and denial that exists in too many parts of the Muslim community. When I read about some Muslim leaders and mosques refusing to co-operate with Prevent because they are more worried about how it will make them look, I see people whose concern with the appearance of things, with the appearance of "honour" rather than with the reality has badly skewed their moral compass. They need calling out on this.


    To repeat my earlier comment: is only 10% from religious leaders that uncommon? One would expect that the vast majority of tip-offs are going to come from family members (wives, mothers, etc.).

    If 60% come from family members, then the rest might divide into roughly equally quarters: religious leaders, neighbors, friends, other.

    It's also important to compare the proportion to other religious leaders and terrorism. What proportion of IRA tip-offs came from priests? I would guess not a very high proportion either.
    The IRA were riddled with informants. Many of their members were "turned". I would expect the security services to be trying to do the same thing again. I don't think that a numbers game is very helpful. One good tip may be worth far more than a 100 useless ones. But it is important to get a culture going where speaking up about bad stuff is seen as a good thing, where the default position is against extremism and radicalisation. If you have religious leaders who are, seemingly, more concerned about being seen to help the authorities (and being against that) than in preventing radicalisation that is a big issue because it sets the tone from the top.

    Re Northern Ireland, there was a story a few years back that there was a Catholic priest, well known to the authorities, both Catholic and the army etc, who was an active terrorist organiser. It was never made public until after he died because the authorities were so concerned at the time at the possibility of a backlash against priests and Catholics in general. Shocking on many levels and the wretched evil man never got the justice he deserved.

    I guess it shows that there is a lot of moral ambiguity in the wars on terrorists than we might suppose.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Dr. Foxinsox, Kippers tend not to advocate tearing down statues or dictating acceptable vocabulary, though. Or, for that matter, actively endorsing racial discrimination in the workplace.

    Edited extra bit: still utterly pissing it down.

    Nice and dry on the South coast ;-)

    Of course kippers whine differently to Corbynistas, but whine they do nevertheless.

    Happy Winterval one and all (apart from those resident in the Southern Hemisphere or tropics where other seasonal celebrations are appropriate).
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214
    scotslass said:

    In the absence of any real news bar the flooding and given the fact that this is the only time of year that I have any time on my hands I took a quick look at PB.

    I am sorry I did.

    At this time of year I would expect to see a bit of reflection, a few forecasts and hopefully a little humour. Instead we have todays's site contaminated by humourless anti-Muslim rants. Perhaps a little reflection on the meaning of Christmas tide would enable these poor souls with nothing better to do this Boxing Day to see the world in a slightly less prejudiced way - or perhaps not.

    By the way don't bother to tell me how naive/lefty/SNP I am. Like most normal folk I am off to offer up the turkey in a slightly different way from yesterday.

    You left out the anti-banker rants. :)
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    isam said:
    Glad you agree about the pointlessness of border controls.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    edited December 2015
    Imagine UKIP members were going around bombing, raping, beheading etc, and it were found that the party's top brass were forbidding anyone to talk to the police unit investigating the problem

    Do we think the luvvies on here would be sticking up for the kippers or staying true to their blind prejudice?
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    isam said:
    Maybe keeping a closer eye on ports is the answer, along with checking passports more carefully, rather than ineffectual security theatre.
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    isam said:



    My mum worked in Tower Hamlets council for 20 years and everyone knew about the dodgy voting practices

    Must have been hell for your mum when she tried to report this to the authorities.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited December 2015
    ''At this time of year I would expect to see a bit of reflection, a few forecasts and hopefully a little humour. Instead we have todays's site contaminated by humourless anti-Muslim rants.''

    Point taken, but I think there's a distinction to make between anti-muslim rants and pointing out that the prevailing attitude in the West to islam may be changing, even in 'enlightened' circles.

    I would argue the latter is certainly the case.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited December 2015
    Someone got a big dollop of sanctimony for Christmas.
This discussion has been closed.