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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This is the sort of leadership polling that’ll be seized on

SystemSystem Posts: 11,698
edited December 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This is the sort of leadership polling that’ll be seized on by Corbyn’s Labour opponents

From where I stand there are two ways that Corbyn could be brought down. The first is a growing realisation from polling and elections results that the Tories are a certainty for GE2020 and that the red team will be out of power till at least 2025. Nearly ten years is an awful long time.

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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Wow, first at this time of day.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,041
    Only second, and I had a start, being seven hours ahead of UK at the moment!
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    Corbynism sweeping the nation (CSTN)....
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    I'm 4 hours behind, OKC, but this is bollocks, Mike. You can't argue it's about leadership ratings and then project out to 2025, when we know DC won't be leader beyond 2020 at the latest.
    Did anyone suggest 'a week is a long time in politics'?
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    I can't see why Labour would ditch Corbyn, the leadership contest showed how awful the alternatives are, if they split they simply split the vote. UKIP are fighting like ferrets in a sack, the Libs are irrelevant, we're stuck with this lot for at least two more terms.

    That will please some but it makes for awful govt and equally bland discussion.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited December 2015
    If leader ratings really are the best electoral pointer then CON looks set to be in power until at least May 2025
    But head-to-head polls show even Corbyn (never mind another Labour leader who replaces him nearer the time) in a statistical tie with the favourite to be next Tory leader.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,041
    "Broad left" Coalition in Spain likely after Rajoy tries and fails???????
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    BaskervilleBaskerville Posts: 391
    edited December 2015
    Just seen this.... passed me by until now.

    Human rights reform still a long way off -
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35090994

    This gives us a new angle on the renegotiation.
    Opt out of 'ever closer union' A deal on benefits. Protection for non-Eurozone and the City, Meh.
    But, additionally, a UK Constitution Act detailing the limits of EU action.

    So, no need for a new treaty, just a 'written constitution' ensuring UK courts have supremacy.

    Either Gove's a genius or someone at the DoJ should be signing up Joshua Rosenberg as an adviser rapido.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,936
    Morning fellow expatriates and insomniacs! Interesting how they change slightly the wording of the question, but no matter which way it's asked the numbers for Corbyn are still terrible. Talk of Galloway returning and of Livingstone getting another shout at something are not going to help those numbers either.

    The next few months should be Labour's opportunity to stick it to Cameron over the EU renegotiation process, but they seem far more interested in their own internal warfare than in their role as Her Majesty's Official Opposition.
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    Spain:

    With Rajoy entering a 'Ted Heath' phase in 2016 one wonders what impact this will have on Cammer's June 2016 EU-vote plans? Could the referendum be pushed back to October (or will the expcected looney, Spanish left outcome push it further into 2017)...?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Sandpit said:

    Morning fellow expatriates and insomniacs! Interesting how they change slightly the wording of the question, but no matter which way it's asked the numbers for Corbyn are still terrible. Talk of Galloway returning and of Livingstone getting another shout at something are not going to help those numbers either.

    The next few months should be Labour's opportunity to stick it to Cameron over the EU renegotiation process, but they seem far more interested in their own internal warfare than in their role as Her Majesty's Official Opposition.

    Why should Labour "stick it" to Cameron over the EU renegotiation ? It is going fine and Cameron will support to REMAIN.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,334
    It is a very sobering thought that Corbyn's net approval ratings, which as we have seen are absolutely diabolical, may be being propped up by short-sighted tribal Conservatives. If those are stripped out, what is he left with?

    It doesn't seem likely that Osborne's numbers are being inflated by a reverse effect though. So it seems reasonable to assume that actually on current numbers he would be ahead of the Jezziah.

    In many ways that's an even more frightening thought...
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052
    edited December 2015

    Spain:

    With Rajoy entering a 'Ted Heath' phase in 2016 one wonders what impact this will have on Cammer's June 2016 EU-vote plans? Could the referendum be pushed back to October (or will the expcected looney, Spanish left outcome push it further into 2017)...?

    I don't see a credible path to a left wing government in Spain.

    PP + C + the Catalan right wing bunch have 172

    You would need to see every single left wing, regionalist and nationalist group to beat that (what, eight parties, including the Basque EAJ who *hate* Podemos?). And I just don't see it.

    I think there are two realistic outcomes:

    1. A minority PP government in Spain, with both PSOE and C abstaining in the vote of confidence. Why wouldn't PSOE vote down PP? Because they fear that in a new election, they'd end up behind Podemos. PSOE leader Sanchez last night said that PP should be allowed to form the next government, so I think this is the most likely outcome.

    2. New elections in February. If PSOE decide to vote against the PP, and Citizens' hold good to their promise not to go into coalition with anyone, then new elections seem almost certain. PP + C + the right wing Catalans can defeat pretty much any collection of left wing parties. (Especially as the centre right Basque EAJ would rather cut off their own legs than get into bed with Podemos.)

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052

    "Broad left" Coalition in Spain likely after Rajoy tries and fails???????

    No.

    "Right wing" parties have more than 50% of the seats:

    PP 123
    C 40
    DIL 9
    EAJ 6
    ---
    178

    175 needed for majority
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,041
    edited December 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    "Broad left" Coalition in Spain likely after Rajoy tries and fails???????

    No.

    "Right wing" parties have more than 50% of the seats:

    PP 123
    C 40
    DIL 9
    EAJ 6
    ---
    178

    175 needed for majority
    Don't see C as all that "right". According to Wikipedia (caveat alert) "Citizens – Party of the Citizenry,[24] is a political party in Spain which is described by itself and some observers as centre-left and non-nationalist, although others have described it as centre-right. Citizens presents itself as a party which offers a mix of social democracy and liberal-progressive positions on its platform."
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052
    edited December 2015

    rcs1000 said:

    "Broad left" Coalition in Spain likely after Rajoy tries and fails???????

    No.

    "Right wing" parties have more than 50% of the seats:

    PP 123
    C 40
    DIL 9
    EAJ 6
    ---
    178

    175 needed for majority
    Don't see C as all that "right".
    They're certainly to the right of the Liberal Democrats.

    In many ways, Citizens' is a reaction to Podemos: an avowedly free market, pro-European group. While you might have see PSOE-C as a coalition, it simply doesn't have the votes without Podemos. And C won't go into coalition with Podemos.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,041
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    "Broad left" Coalition in Spain likely after Rajoy tries and fails???????

    No.

    "Right wing" parties have more than 50% of the seats:

    PP 123
    C 40
    DIL 9
    EAJ 6
    ---
    178

    175 needed for majority
    Don't see C as all that "right".
    They're certainly to the right of the Liberal Democrats.

    In many ways, Citizens' is a reaction to Podemos: an avowedly free market, pro-European group. While you might have see PSOE-C as a coalition, it simply doesn't have the votes without Podemos. And C won't go into coalition with Podemos.
    Not difficult to be to the right of the LibDEms.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052

    rcs1000 said:

    "Broad left" Coalition in Spain likely after Rajoy tries and fails???????

    No.

    "Right wing" parties have more than 50% of the seats:

    PP 123
    C 40
    DIL 9
    EAJ 6
    ---
    178

    175 needed for majority
    Don't see C as all that "right". According to Wikipedia (caveat alert) "Citizens – Party of the Citizenry,[24] is a political party in Spain which is described by itself and some observers as centre-left and non-nationalist, although others have described it as centre-right. Citizens presents itself as a party which offers a mix of social democracy and liberal-progressive positions on its platform."
    After the regional elections in Spain, Citizens propped up minority PP governments in Madrid and other places.

    Above all else, though, their rabid pro-Europeanism ("Europe is our future" is their slogan) rules them out of a coalition with Podemos.

    So, I guess PSOE + C could be a minority government, but it seems quite unlikely.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052
    Re Spain: also worth remembering that the PP held onto a majority in the Senate, which also makes any government without them quite difficult.
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    rcs1000 said:

    Re Spain: also worth remembering that the PP held onto a majority in the Senate, which also makes any government without them quite difficult.

    I am sure Ted Heath had a majority in 'The Other Place' in Feburary 1974. Check your history: His Government did not survive long and was replaced by a leftist cohort.... :(
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    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    "Broad left" Coalition in Spain likely after Rajoy tries and fails???????

    No.

    "Right wing" parties have more than 50% of the seats:

    PP 123
    C 40
    DIL 9
    EAJ 6
    ---
    178

    175 needed for majority
    Don't see C as all that "right".
    They're certainly to the right of the Liberal Democrats.

    In many ways, Citizens' is a reaction to Podemos: an avowedly free market, pro-European group. While you might have see PSOE-C as a coalition, it simply doesn't have the votes without Podemos. And C won't go into coalition with Podemos.

    Coalition no, but will Podemos vote against? That is the key.

    In the first round of voting for the new president an overall majority has to be secured - 175+1

    But if that does not happen, in the second round just a simple majority is needed.

    If Rajoy can't achieve the first - and it is very unlikely - then Sanchez may achieve the second if Podemos abstains, though the resulting government would be incredibly unstable.

    The main takeaway from last night is that the two party system is over. PSOE finished behind Podemos in every bilingual region, plus Madrid. PP got its worst result since the 80s. I'd say Rajoy is likely to be toast.

    It was also a very bad night for Artur Mas, the Catalan president. His party lost 50% of its vote. Between them the two Catalan parties that formed Junts pel Si got less than 35% and were clearly beaten by the PSC/Cs/PP non-separatist bloc. There was no SNP-style surge in Catalonia. The Catalan nationalist could be pivotal to what happens in the Cortes, but the results give them very little leverage. They'll vote against any PP candidate, but may well abstain on one from the left.

    It's all pointing to new elections in 2016 and a different PP leader.

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052

    rcs1000 said:

    Re Spain: also worth remembering that the PP held onto a majority in the Senate, which also makes any government without them quite difficult.

    I am sure Ted Heath had a majority in 'The Other Place' in Feburary 1974. Check your history: His Government did not survive long and was replaced by a leftist cohort.... :(
    Oh, I think new elections are very likely.

    I just don't see a working Left wing coalition in Spain - C and P won't get into bed, I think.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Well, I'm looking forward to #Jez100 immensely :smiley:

    And even if Osborne is Draco Malfoy, I think he'd still win against Jezza whatever their leadership ratings are. Jezza has more baggage than Santa's sleigh - I just can't see anyone bar core strategy Labourites and Greenies voting for him.

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    rcs1000 said:

    "Broad left" Coalition in Spain likely after Rajoy tries and fails???????

    No.

    "Right wing" parties have more than 50% of the seats:

    PP 123
    C 40
    DIL 9
    EAJ 6
    ---
    178

    175 needed for majority
    Don't see C as all that "right". According to Wikipedia (caveat alert) "Citizens – Party of the Citizenry,[24] is a political party in Spain which is described by itself and some observers as centre-left and non-nationalist, although others have described it as centre-right. Citizens presents itself as a party which offers a mix of social democracy and liberal-progressive positions on its platform."

    Cs is very anti-PP, which given its Catalan roots is very unsurprising. If it were to go into coalition with PP it would lose a lot of its Catalan support. A deal with PSOE also looks tricky, but some have been struck at regional level, most notably in Andalucia.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360
    The success of Podemos shows that a Corbyn led Labour party is not necessarily doomed to oblivion although the economic situation in Spain, especially as regards employment, is very different from here.

    It also shows the lack of attraction in a split with the Socialists and Podemos splitting the left wing vote between them leaving PP to come through the middle to be the largest party.

    It's not as if Labour MPs need an excuse to sit on their hands and whinge whilst doing nothing but if they did need one it seems to me that Spain gives them one. Mike is right that Corbyn is going nowhere soon. Governing well without meaningful opposition is very hard. Look at how many mistakes the SNP have made.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    "Broad left" Coalition in Spain likely after Rajoy tries and fails???????

    No.

    "Right wing" parties have more than 50% of the seats:

    PP 123
    C 40
    DIL 9
    EAJ 6
    ---
    178

    175 needed for majority
    Don't see C as all that "right".
    They're certainly to the right of the Liberal Democrats.

    In many ways, Citizens' is a reaction to Podemos: an avowedly free market, pro-European group. While you might have see PSOE-C as a coalition, it simply doesn't have the votes without Podemos. And C won't go into coalition with Podemos.

    Coalition no, but will Podemos vote against? That is the key.

    In the first round of voting for the new president an overall majority has to be secured - 175+1

    But if that does not happen, in the second round just a simple majority is needed.

    If Rajoy can't achieve the first - and it is very unlikely - then Sanchez may achieve the second if Podemos abstains, though the resulting government would be incredibly unstable.

    The main takeaway from last night is that the two party system is over. PSOE finished behind Podemos in every bilingual region, plus Madrid. PP got its worst result since the 80s. I'd say Rajoy is likely to be toast.

    It was also a very bad night for Artur Mas, the Catalan president. His party lost 50% of its vote. Between them the two Catalan parties that formed Junts pel Si got less than 35% and were clearly beaten by the PSC/Cs/PP non-separatist bloc. There was no SNP-style surge in Catalonia. The Catalan nationalist could be pivotal to what happens in the Cortes, but the results give them very little leverage. They'll vote against any PP candidate, but may well abstain on one from the left.

    It's all pointing to new elections in 2016 and a different PP leader.

    I agree new elections are likely sooner rather than later :lol:

    The problem with PSOE - C is that it requires C to explicitly back the PSOE, which they have said they will not do.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052

    rcs1000 said:

    "Broad left" Coalition in Spain likely after Rajoy tries and fails???????

    No.

    "Right wing" parties have more than 50% of the seats:

    PP 123
    C 40
    DIL 9
    EAJ 6
    ---
    178

    175 needed for majority
    Don't see C as all that "right". According to Wikipedia (caveat alert) "Citizens – Party of the Citizenry,[24] is a political party in Spain which is described by itself and some observers as centre-left and non-nationalist, although others have described it as centre-right. Citizens presents itself as a party which offers a mix of social democracy and liberal-progressive positions on its platform."

    Cs is very anti-PP, which given its Catalan roots is very unsurprising. If it were to go into coalition with PP it would lose a lot of its Catalan support. A deal with PSOE also looks tricky, but some have been struck at regional level, most notably in Andalucia.

    So: new elections, then?
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    DavidL said:

    The success of Podemos shows that a Corbyn led Labour party is not necessarily doomed to oblivion although the economic situation in Spain, especially as regards employment, is very different from here.

    It also shows the lack of attraction in a split with the Socialists and Podemos splitting the left wing vote between them leaving PP to come through the middle to be the largest party.

    It's not as if Labour MPs need an excuse to sit on their hands and whinge whilst doing nothing but if they did need one it seems to me that Spain gives them one. Mike is right that Corbyn is going nowhere soon. Governing well without meaningful opposition is very hard. Look at how many mistakes the SNP have made.

    Both PSOE and Podemos did better than expected. The former ever so slightly so, the latter spectacularly so. The surprising losers were Cs, squeezed by the PP's warnings about a Red alliance. But this was all done under PR. With FPTP we'd be looking at a very different outcome. And that's the system Labour MPs have to contend with.

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    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    "Broad left" Coalition in Spain likely after Rajoy tries and fails???????

    No.

    "Right wing" parties have more than 50% of the seats:

    PP 123
    C 40
    DIL 9
    EAJ 6
    ---
    178

    175 needed for majority
    Don't see C as all that "right". According to Wikipedia (caveat alert) "Citizens – Party of the Citizenry,[24] is a political party in Spain which is described by itself and some observers as centre-left and non-nationalist, although others have described it as centre-right. Citizens presents itself as a party which offers a mix of social democracy and liberal-progressive positions on its platform."

    Cs is very anti-PP, which given its Catalan roots is very unsurprising. If it were to go into coalition with PP it would lose a lot of its Catalan support. A deal with PSOE also looks tricky, but some have been struck at regional level, most notably in Andalucia.

    So: new elections, then?

    It's hard to see a credible alternative. Or much of a different result, unless PP changes leader. If that were to happen, the Cs vote might be squeezed even more. A lot will also depend on how the Podemos collective functions. Can it maintain a single voice? I suspect that it will fracture at some stage. Iglesias has a tendency to shoot his mouth off.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360

    DavidL said:

    The success of Podemos shows that a Corbyn led Labour party is not necessarily doomed to oblivion although the economic situation in Spain, especially as regards employment, is very different from here.

    It also shows the lack of attraction in a split with the Socialists and Podemos splitting the left wing vote between them leaving PP to come through the middle to be the largest party.

    It's not as if Labour MPs need an excuse to sit on their hands and whinge whilst doing nothing but if they did need one it seems to me that Spain gives them one. Mike is right that Corbyn is going nowhere soon. Governing well without meaningful opposition is very hard. Look at how many mistakes the SNP have made.

    Both PSOE and Podemos did better than expected. The former ever so slightly so, the latter spectacularly so. The surprising losers were Cs, squeezed by the PP's warnings about a Red alliance. But this was all done under PR. With FPTP we'd be looking at a very different outcome. And that's the system Labour MPs have to contend with.

    A fair point. It makes the risks of a split much, much greater.
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    I would not rule out an anti-PP pact explicitly designed to achieve constitutional reform. It's not likely, but the clear message from the election is that the Spanish people want change.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.
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    The Conservatives should try a new 30:30 strategy on the new boundaries, if Corbyn stays. Defend their most 30 marginal seats to Labour, focussing on the urban/extra urban seats (the LDs aren't coming back any time soon in most of their 2015 losses) and cherry pick the 30 Labour seats most vulnerable from Corbyn.

    This bullseye targeting worked very well in 2015, and there's no reason why it couldn't work equally well in 2020 and land the Conservatives an even bigger majority.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052

    I would not rule out an anti-PP pact explicitly designed to achieve constitutional reform. It's not likely, but the clear message from the election is that the Spanish people want change.

    I think that's possible: a six month government to reform the constitution to allow a vote in Catalonia, and a move to a more proportional electoral system.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Somebody on here was banging on about the repercussions of the living wage yesterday, now the CBI has said it will lead to job cuts and price rises.
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    rcs1000 said:

    I would not rule out an anti-PP pact explicitly designed to achieve constitutional reform. It's not likely, but the clear message from the election is that the Spanish people want change.

    I think that's possible: a six month government to reform the constitution to allow a vote in Catalonia, and a move to a more proportional electoral system.

    The devil would be in the detail. Podemos supports a Yes/No Catalan referendum; PSOE and Cs support a Basque style settlement for the Catalans. A compromise could be a referendum on that. This may also draw at least a part of CDC's support away from separation.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360

    The Conservatives should try a new 30:30 strategy on the new boundaries, if Corbyn stays. Defend their most 30 marginal seats to Labour, focussing on the urban/extra urban seats (the LDs aren't coming back any time soon in most of their 2015 losses) and cherry pick the 30 Labour seats most vulnerable from Corbyn.

    This bullseye targeting worked very well in 2015, and there's no reason why it couldn't work equally well in 2020 and land the Conservatives an even bigger majority.

    Their targeting in 2015 was spot on, massively reducing the difference in the efficiency of the Labour vote which was one of their major advantages. I think there is further to go. Corbyn will probably do alright in City centres but the suburban, small town seats where they so underperformed in 2015 look likely to swing even further against them.
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    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    Infinite population growth is good?

    It'll be interesting to see how the Libs perform at the next GE if that is the message.

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    In the last parliament Galloway used to sit next to Corbyn on the back benches. I'd like to see GG back in Labour and back in parliament but this time on the front bench in place of the wretched Benn.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360

    Somebody on here was banging on about the repercussions of the living wage yesterday, now the CBI has said it will lead to job cuts and price rises.

    The CBI should just occasionally check in with its membership before opening its mouth. UK businesses took on an additional 200K workers in Q3 alone in the knowledge that the living wage was coming in. Admittedly inflation increased markedly all the way up to 0.1%.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited December 2015

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    Nah. The cut in training places,and ban on non-EU overseas recruitment have reduced supply. Retention is terrible often because of lack of family friendly policies. Now there are caps on agency rates and also an end to student nurse bursaries..

    May has now temporarily raised the ban on recruitment outside the EU, so expect those figures to rise.

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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    DavidL said:

    Somebody on here was banging on about the repercussions of the living wage yesterday, now the CBI has said it will lead to job cuts and price rises.

    The CBI should just occasionally check in with its membership before opening its mouth. UK businesses took on an additional 200K workers in Q3 alone in the knowledge that the living wage was coming in. Admittedly inflation increased markedly all the way up to 0.1%.
    So they're wrong then - no jobs will be lost and no prices will rise?

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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    Nah. The cut in training places,and ban on non-EU overseas recruitment have reduced supply. Retention is terrible often because of lack of family friendly policies. Now there are caps on agency rates and also an end to student nurse bursaries..

    May has now temporarily raised the ban on recruitment outside the EU, so expect those figures to rise.

    May is very sensible, she realises that our immigration policy is discriminatory. Having to take people from the EU while restricting those from outside is ridiculous.

    The cut in training places is a terrible indictment of this govt, refusing to train youngsters because it's easier to import them.

    What a shambles.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360

    DavidL said:

    Somebody on here was banging on about the repercussions of the living wage yesterday, now the CBI has said it will lead to job cuts and price rises.

    The CBI should just occasionally check in with its membership before opening its mouth. UK businesses took on an additional 200K workers in Q3 alone in the knowledge that the living wage was coming in. Admittedly inflation increased markedly all the way up to 0.1%.
    So they're wrong then - no jobs will be lost and no prices will rise?

    Prices may fall less but the deflationary pressures still in our economy are very strong and quite serious: look at the long term trends on gilts. The BoE is supposed to be targeting 2% inflation for a reason, it is thought that it is a sweet spot conducive to growth. They have not been there in 2015 and will not get there in 2016 either.

    It is hard to see job growth continuing at the current rate throughout 2016. We are getting very close to frictional unemployment in large parts of the country and only the release valve of immigration is stopping wage inflation (although real wages are now rising quite strongly). That said, such is the momentum that it seems unlikely to me that 2016 will see a reduction in employment overall.

    So yes, they are wrong in absolute terms. If their point is that things could be better without the living wage I would disagree with that too but the point is more debatable.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Jezza really does want X Factor policy making

    Corbyn hints at online Trident ballot
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4646263.ece
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    Nah. The cut in training places,and ban on non-EU overseas recruitment have reduced supply. Retention is terrible often because of lack of family friendly policies. Now there are caps on agency rates and also an end to student nurse bursaries..

    May has now temporarily raised the ban on recruitment outside the EU, so expect those figures to rise.

    May is very sensible, she realises that our immigration policy is discriminatory. Having to take people from the EU while restricting those from outside is ridiculous.

    The cut in training places is a terrible indictment of this govt, refusing to train youngsters because it's easier to import them.

    What a shambles.

    Youth unemployment at a 9 year low. But carry on.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,041

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    Nah. The cut in training places,and ban on non-EU overseas recruitment have reduced supply. Retention is terrible often because of lack of family friendly policies. Now there are caps on agency rates and also an end to student nurse bursaries..

    May has now temporarily raised the ban on recruitment outside the EU, so expect those figures to rise.

    It's those younger doctors marrying them and taking them to foreign parts!
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    edited December 2015

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    That is pathetic defeatism. The only proper way to solve it is training our youth effectively. The lifting the nurse training & university number caps is a great start.
    Immigration can develop into a dangerous dependency on the same level as welfare/benefits.
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    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    Stripping poor countries of their trained personnel is revoltingly selfish and arrogant.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    No one seems to have commented on the dire figs for Farron and Farage.. so I will !
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    Nah. The cut in training places,and ban on non-EU overseas recruitment have reduced supply. Retention is terrible often because of lack of family friendly policies. Now there are caps on agency rates and also an end to student nurse bursaries..

    May has now temporarily raised the ban on recruitment outside the EU, so expect those figures to rise.

    It's those younger doctors marrying them and taking them to foreign parts!
    Surely one upside of the majority of young doctors being women. Most will find the nurses less attractive.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    Stripping poor countries of their trained personnel is revoltingly selfish and arrogant.
    For most of these countries remitted earnings from abroad is an essential part of the economy providing the currency to import key products like medicines. So it is not all bad.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060

    Jezza really does want X Factor policy making

    Corbyn hints at online Trident ballot
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4646263.ece

    What do we currently know about what happened over the Syria vote? There were allegations that Labour asked for opinions, and then only counted a few of them. Not only that, but a person with a possible agenda was in charge of the counting.

    As people will have noticed, I'm not in favour of electronic voting. Balloting in this manner is not as bad, but it needs its rules and process firmly set and validated.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    DavidL said:

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    Nah. The cut in training places,and ban on non-EU overseas recruitment have reduced supply. Retention is terrible often because of lack of family friendly policies. Now there are caps on agency rates and also an end to student nurse bursaries..

    May has now temporarily raised the ban on recruitment outside the EU, so expect those figures to rise.

    It's those younger doctors marrying them and taking them to foreign parts!
    Surely one upside of the majority of young doctors being women. Most will find the nurses less attractive.
    but after a few yrs of hard work post qualifying, they largely go part time for many years which is sub optimal
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Miss Plato, Corbyn's head is empty as a eunuch's underpants.

    Online voting isn't secure. The general public cannot have access to privileged security information that top politicians are given. The whole electoral system is designed so that politicians take decisions on our behalf.

    Will there be online votes as to whether we should abolish foreign aid? Or only things where Corbyn disagrees with his own MPs?
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    Cameron's ratings are irrelevant since he won't be offering himself to the country again.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052
    @SouthamObserver:

    One of my Spanish friends has pointed out to me that as the PP won a majority of seats in the Senate last night that constitutional change is impossible without their support.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    DavidL said:

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    Nah. The cut in training places,and ban on non-EU overseas recruitment have reduced supply. Retention is terrible often because of lack of family friendly policies. Now there are caps on agency rates and also an end to student nurse bursaries..

    May has now temporarily raised the ban on recruitment outside the EU, so expect those figures to rise.

    May is very sensible, she realises that our immigration policy is discriminatory. Having to take people from the EU while restricting those from outside is ridiculous.

    The cut in training places is a terrible indictment of this govt, refusing to train youngsters because it's easier to import them.

    What a shambles.

    Youth unemployment at a 9 year low. But carry on.
    You continually dodge issues, youth unemployment has nothing to do with a shortage of nurses, partly because we are training less.

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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,041
    DavidL said:

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    Nah. The cut in training places,and ban on non-EU overseas recruitment have reduced supply. Retention is terrible often because of lack of family friendly policies. Now there are caps on agency rates and also an end to student nurse bursaries..

    May has now temporarily raised the ban on recruitment outside the EU, so expect those figures to rise.

    It's those younger doctors marrying them and taking them to foreign parts!
    Surely one upside of the majority of young doctors being women. Most will find the nurses less attractive.
    True. Was back in the days of Doctor in the House for a bit!
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,041

    No one seems to have commented on the dire figs for Farron and Farage.. so I will !


    Farage, of course is on his way down; Farron on his way up!
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060

    Good morning, everyone.

    Miss Plato, Corbyn's head is empty as a eunuch's underpants.

    Online voting isn't secure. The general public cannot have access to privileged security information that top politicians are given. The whole electoral system is designed so that politicians take decisions on our behalf.

    Will there be online votes as to whether we should abolish foreign aid? Or only things where Corbyn disagrees with his own MPs?

    You make a very good point about the security briefings.

    I have no problems with politicians asking the public for their views. But views polluted by pressure group campaigns should not be seen as being representative of the public as a whole.
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    Pauly said:

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    That is pathetic defeatism. The only proper way to solve it is training our youth effectively. The lifting the nurse training & university number caps is a great start.
    Immigration can develop into a dangerous dependency on the same level as welfare/benefits.
    Mike is being provocative.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    No one seems to have commented on the dire figs for Farron and Farage.. so I will !


    Farage, of course is on his way down; Farron on his way up!
    Farron also has a lot more "Don't Knows", while most have formed an opinion on Farage and do not like what they see.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited December 2015
    IIRC ONS figs are 85.8% youth in edu or training now.

    I am against using immigrants to band-aid over issues as anything other than a short term fix. Importing skills from elsewhere masks our issues. It may take 5-10yrs to fix them, but we're doing a lot more than we did for ages.
    Pauly said:

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    That is pathetic defeatism. The only proper way to solve it is training our youth effectively. The lifting the nurse training & university number caps is a great start.
    Immigration can develop into a dangerous dependency on the same level as welfare/benefits.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2015
    DavidL said:

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    Stripping poor countries of their trained personnel is revoltingly selfish and arrogant.
    For most of these countries remitted earnings from abroad is an essential part of the economy providing the currency to import key products like medicines. So it is not all bad.
    Largely remitted money is spent on personal electronics or allowing people sit at home and not work, very little is spent on medicines nice though it might be to believe it. Sometimes whole families in rural areas are supported by one son or daughter living abroad.
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    Mike is being provocative.

    OGH's spelling shows why he ended up being a radio-journalist....

    :trollface:
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pauly said:

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    That is pathetic defeatism. The only proper way to solve it is training our youth effectively. The lifting the nurse training & university number caps is a great start.
    Immigration can develop into a dangerous dependency on the same level as welfare/benefits.
    It does show a lack of coherence in government. The DoH cuts nurse training, and also makes Nursing and Medicine less attractive as careers. Then the Home Office finds the immigration figures going up!

    A majority of the nurses that I work with trained overseas. Filipino, Portuguese, Spanish, Indian, Mauritian, Irish etc. A great bunch and judging by last weeks Christmas party very Integrated with British life!
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052
    Indigo said:

    DavidL said:

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    Stripping poor countries of their trained personnel is revoltingly selfish and arrogant.
    For most of these countries remitted earnings from abroad is an essential part of the economy providing the currency to import key products like medicines. So it is not all bad.
    Largely remitted money is spent on personal electronics or allowing people sit at home and not work, very little is spent on medicines nice though it might be to believe it. Sometimes whole families in rural areas are supported by one son or daughter living abroad.
    I think you'll find that energy import bills outweigh consumer electronics bills by margins of at least 200%.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    No one seems to have commented on the dire figs for Farron and Farage.. so I will !


    Farage, of course is on his way down; Farron on his way up!
    Farron also has a lot more "Don't Knows", while most have formed an opinion on Farage and do not like what they see.
    Don't worry, when they hear the ultra religious (evangelical) Farron (cf Sir Humphrey Appleby), it'll be enough to scare them off.

    I have been to many churches of late, and the higher the church, the more I dislike it.. and I feel sure I am not alone.


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    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,977

    Jezza really does want X Factor policy making

    Corbyn hints at online Trident ballot
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4646263.ece

    What do we currently know about what happened over the Syria vote? There were allegations that Labour asked for opinions, and then only counted a few of them. Not only that, but a person with a possible agenda was in charge of the counting.

    As people will have noticed, I'm not in favour of electronic voting. Balloting in this manner is not as bad, but it needs its rules and process firmly set and validated.
    That article shows that Corbyn is woefully ignorant as to the flaws surrounding social media - he could in fact develop policy popular on social media but ultimately unpalatable to the electorate (but guess it serves a purpose as it cements his hold on the party. He also seems to think digital is the solution to everything - it's an important part, but he obviously over estimates it's capability.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    DavidL said:

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    Stripping poor countries of their trained personnel is revoltingly selfish and arrogant.
    For most of these countries remitted earnings from abroad is an essential part of the economy providing the currency to import key products like medicines. So it is not all bad.
    Largely remitted money is spent on personal electronics or allowing people sit at home and not work, very little is spent on medicines nice though it might be to believe it. Sometimes whole families in rural areas are supported by one son or daughter living abroad.
    I think you'll find that energy import bills outweigh consumer electronics bills by margins of at least 200%.
    Possible. What has that got to do with remitted money ?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,115
    Danny565 said:

    If leader ratings really are the best electoral pointer then CON looks set to be in power until at least May 2025
    But head-to-head polls show even Corbyn (never mind another Labour leader who replaces him nearer the time) in a statistical tie with the favourite to be next Tory leader.

    Opinium still had Osborne leading Corbyn 24% to 21% yesterday. However it will take a really bad election result, probably a Labour seat falling to UKIP in a by election, to topple Corbyn
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    No one seems to have commented on the dire figs for Farron and Farage.. so I will !


    Farage, of course is on his way down; Farron on his way up!
    Farron also has a lot more "Don't Knows", while most have formed an opinion on Farage and do not like what they see.
    Don't worry, when they hear the ultra religious (evangelical) Farron (cf Sir Humphrey Appleby), it'll be enough to scare them off.

    I have been to many churches of late, and the higher the church, the more I dislike it.. and I feel sure I am not alone.


    I am not Anglican, but surely Farron's Evangelism is low rather than high Church?

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    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    Stripping poor countries of their trained personnel is revoltingly selfish and arrogant.
    An excellent, much overlooked, point. Stealing health care professionals from poor people is not and never can be a "GOOD" thing.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052
    Indigo said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    DavidL said:

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    Stripping poor countries of their trained personnel is revoltingly selfish and arrogant.
    For most of these countries remitted earnings from abroad is an essential part of the economy providing the currency to import key products like medicines. So it is not all bad.
    Largely remitted money is spent on personal electronics or allowing people sit at home and not work, very little is spent on medicines nice though it might be to believe it. Sometimes whole families in rural areas are supported by one son or daughter living abroad.
    I think you'll find that energy import bills outweigh consumer electronics bills by margins of at least 200%.
    Possible. What has that got to do with remitted money ?
    You guys were arguing over what remitted money was used for. DavidL suggested medicine. You rubbished that and said consumer electronics.

    I thought I should probably allow reality to intrude.
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    Mr. Abode, the rank ignorance of leading politicians about what the interweb can and cannot do, or how it basically functions, is depressing. Likewise Cameron's seemingly dropped plan to ban encryption.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    No one seems to have commented on the dire figs for Farron and Farage.. so I will !


    Farage, of course is on his way down; Farron on his way up!
    Farron also has a lot more "Don't Knows", while most have formed an opinion on Farage and do not like what they see.
    Don't worry, when they hear the ultra religious (evangelical) Farron (cf Sir Humphrey Appleby), it'll be enough to scare them off.

    I have been to many churches of late, and the higher the church, the more I dislike it.. and I feel sure I am not alone.


    I am not Anglican, but surely Farron's Evangelism is low rather than high Church?

    pass.. What I do know is that I loathe evangelism, everyone's religion or lack of it to me is a personal matter . I will not intrude on theirs and I don't want anyone to intrude on mine. Its like the Jehovah's witnesses turning up on your doorstep. You eventually have to tell them to F off because they don't and wont take not interested for an answer.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    Stripping poor countries of their trained personnel is revoltingly selfish and arrogant.
    An excellent, much overlooked, point. Stealing health care professionals from poor people is not and never can be a "GOOD" thing.
    It depends on what the country is like. Many Filipinos see Nurse training as a way to emigrate, and schools are set up with that orientation. In africa it may be different.

    Increasingly our overseas recruitment for nurses is in Spain and Portugal though, where there is nursing unemployment. We get graduate nurses from Spain who have often not been able to find work post qualification.

    The USA is also a big importer of Nurses and Doctors.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    You guys were arguing over what remitted money was used for. DavidL suggested medicine. You rubbished that and said consumer electronics.

    I thought I should probably allow reality to intrude.

    You got mail
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    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    Perhaps you'd like to explain why the last decade of mass immigration is also the decade of worst performance for the UK economy, the decade when UK government debt increased by over a TRILLION pounds, the decade of lowest UK productivity growth and the decade when inequality grew most in the UK ?

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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    DavidL said:

    According to the front pages 9 in 10 hospitals are short of nurses, eventually some bright spark will link that to population growth.

    And then realise that that is the only way to solve it

    INMIGRATION = GOOD
    Stripping poor countries of their trained personnel is revoltingly selfish and arrogant.
    For most of these countries remitted earnings from abroad is an essential part of the economy providing the currency to import key products like medicines. So it is not all bad.
    Largely remitted money is spent on personal electronics or allowing people sit at home and not work, very little is spent on medicines nice though it might be to believe it. Sometimes whole families in rural areas are supported by one son or daughter living abroad.
    I think you'll find that energy import bills outweigh consumer electronics bills by margins of at least 200%.
    Possible. What has that got to do with remitted money ?
    I thought I should probably allow reality to intrude.
    The Robert Smithson Santa Fake Strategy .....

    It's the children I feel sorry for ....

    :smile:

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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    TBH, I've never found Jehovah's Witnesses hard to get rid of - I mention seeing a copy of Watchtower, that I know it's translated into dozens of languages worldwide and wish them well.

    I am very clear that I'm an atheist, but respect their views - but that it'd be a waste of their donations to give me literature or come by again. I find Evangelical Christians okay too - but their happy clappy services are a trifle cult-like. They make me very uncomfortable.

    No one seems to have commented on the dire figs for Farron and Farage.. so I will !


    Farage, of course is on his way down; Farron on his way up!
    Farron also has a lot more "Don't Knows", while most have formed an opinion on Farage and do not like what they see.
    Don't worry, when they hear the ultra religious (evangelical) Farron (cf Sir Humphrey Appleby), it'll be enough to scare them off.

    I have been to many churches of late, and the higher the church, the more I dislike it.. and I feel sure I am not alone.


    I am not Anglican, but surely Farron's Evangelism is low rather than high Church?

    pass.. What I do know is that I loathe evangelism, everyone's religion or lack of it to me is a personal matter . I will not intrude on theirs and I don't want anyone to intrude on mine. Its like the Jehovah's witnesses turning up on your doorstep. You eventually have to tell them to F off because they don't and wont take not interested for an answer.
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    Miss Plato, better Jehovah's Witnesses than churglars. The religious are less self-righteous.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I don't like professional grievance mongers - esp on minority works committees - you can feel them waiting to jump on you for not kissing their arse.

    Miss Plato, better Jehovah's Witnesses than churglars. The religious are less self-righteous.

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060

    Mr. Abode, the rank ignorance of leading politicians about what the interweb can and cannot do, or how it basically functions, is depressing. Likewise Cameron's seemingly dropped plan to ban encryption.

    It's not just leading politicians. The Internet is so broad an area of technology, and can be used in so many ways, that there are few (if any) genuine 'experts' on the whole thing. And some of the people and organisations who are experts, or pretend to be, have ulterior motives when they advise politicians.

    Anyone who remembers the Clipper chip understands this is not a new problem ...
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    TBH, I've never found Jehovah's Witnesses hard to get rid of - I mention seeing a copy of Watchtower, that I know it's translated into dozens of languages worldwide and wish them well.

    I am very clear that I'm an atheist, but respect their views - but that it'd be a waste of their donations to give me literature or come by again. I find Evangelical Christians okay too - but their happy clappy services are a trifle cult-like. They make me very uncomfortable.

    No one seems to have commented on the dire figs for Farron and Farage.. so I will !


    Farage, of course is on his way down; Farron on his way up!
    Farron also has a lot more "Don't Knows", while most have formed an opinion on Farage and do not like what they see.
    Don't worry, when they hear the ultra religious (evangelical) Farron (cf Sir Humphrey Appleby), it'll be enough to scare them off.

    I have been to many churches of late, and the higher the church, the more I dislike it.. and I feel sure I am not alone.


    I am not Anglican, but surely Farron's Evangelism is low rather than high Church?

    pass.. What I do know is that I loathe evangelism, everyone's religion or lack of it to me is a personal matter . I will not intrude on theirs and I don't want anyone to intrude on mine. Its like the Jehovah's witnesses turning up on your doorstep. You eventually have to tell them to F off because they don't and wont take not interested for an answer.
    I have a disabled client with a brain injury. The JW's(not Jack W's) I hasten to add) keep turning up, I keep telling them, neither he nor I are interested, so the last time in exasperation had to tell them to F off or I'd call the police. We now have a note in the window to tell them not to ring the bell , but I doubt it will do any good.
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    Just seen the SPOTY figures. Surprised Sinfield did so well. Didn't win, but got 28% versus Murray's 35%, and Ennis-Hill (third) only got 8%. Hamilton was nowhere, about 5th, behind Tyson Fury.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2015
    .
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    Mr. Jessop, but we're talking about basic issues, not arcane knowledge. Things like 'hackers exist' and 'banning encryption is inherently stupid'.

    I'm a luddite. I have no mobile phone, or tablet (I recently used a touch-screen for the first time. It is witchcraft) and even I know this sort of thing.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    A call to the local church elder could be an answer.

    TBH, I've never found Jehovah's Witnesses hard to get rid of - I mention seeing a copy of Watchtower, that I know it's translated into dozens of languages worldwide and wish them well.

    I am very clear that I'm an atheist, but respect their views - but that it'd be a waste of their donations to give me literature or come by again. I find Evangelical Christians okay too - but their happy clappy services are a trifle cult-like. They make me very uncomfortable.

    No one seems to have commented on the dire figs for Farron and Farage.. so I will !


    Farage, of course is on his way down; Farron on his way up!
    Farron also has a lot more "Don't Knows", while most have formed an opinion on Farage and do not like what they see.
    Don't worry, when they hear the ultra religious (evangelical) Farron (cf Sir Humphrey Appleby), it'll be enough to scare them off.

    I have been to many churches of late, and the higher the church, the more I dislike it.. and I feel sure I am not alone.


    I am not Anglican, but surely Farron's Evangelism is low rather than high Church?

    pass.. What I do know is that I loathe evangelism, everyone's religion or lack of it to me is a personal matter . I will not intrude on theirs and I don't want anyone to intrude on mine. Its like the Jehovah's witnesses turning up on your doorstep. You eventually have to tell them to F off because they don't and wont take not interested for an answer.
    I have a disabled client with a brain injury. The JW's(not Jack W's) I hasten to add) keep turning up, I keep telling them, neither he nor I are interested, so the last time in exasperation had to tell them to F off or I'd call the police. We now have a note in the window to tell them not to ring the bell , but I doubt it will do any good.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,509

    No one seems to have commented on the dire figs for Farron and Farage.. so I will !


    Farage, of course is on his way down; Farron on his way up!
    It's all relative.
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    Blatter and Platini banned from all football activities for eight years.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,556
    edited December 2015
    On topic. This is Corbyn's honeymoon.

    For most Leaders of Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition, it is downhill from here.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,358
    rcs1000 said:



    You would need to see every single left wing, regionalist and nationalist group to beat that (what, eight parties, including the Basque EAJ who *hate* Podemos?). And I just don't see it.

    I think there are two realistic outcomes:

    1. A minority PP government in Spain, with both PSOE and C abstaining in the vote of confidence. Why wouldn't PSOE vote down PP? Because they fear that in a new election, they'd end up behind Podemos. PSOE leader Sanchez last night said that PP should be allowed to form the next government, so I think this is the most likely outcome.

    2. New elections in February. If PSOE decide to vote against the PP, and Citizens' hold good to their promise not to go into coalition with anyone, then new elections seem almost certain. PP + C + the right wing Catalans can defeat pretty much any collection of left wing parties. (Especially as the centre right Basque EAJ would rather cut off their own legs than get into bed with Podemos.)

    I think that Sanchez merely stated as a fact that PP will as the largest party have the right to be the first to attempt to form a government. That's simply recognising the constitution, not necessarily indicating tolerance. I think that letting the PP carry on would sign their death warrant - it'd be like the decision to abstain on austerity that triggered the Corbyn reevolt, only much, much bigger.

    A PSOE minority government tolerated by Cs and the rival factions on the centre-left and nationalists doesn't require them all to get along. I'd have thought that would be Sanchez's objective - do it for 6 months to get government credibility, then ask for a proper mandate.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2015
    Is it just me or are the Tories deliberately going very very light on Corbyn? There's just so much historical (as well as current) baggage that they could very easily mount a destruction offensive. I suspect that they're simply being smart and waiting to do this in the run up to a GE. They were very light touch on Miliband, realising he was their best asset, and made sure they did nothing to unseat him until it was too late for any change - and then they tore him apart before the GE. His manifest unsuitability was brutally exposed. No doubt a repeat of the same is due for Corbyn. If he manages to survive internal defenestrations until then, I am sure we'll see a similarly brutal takedown (probably worse in fact) getting going in early 2020. It won't be hard! I don't think these current leader ratings will be the same in Feb 2020.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,954

    Cameron's ratings are irrelevant since he won't be offering himself to the country again.

    He won't, but given some of the others maybe he should change his mind. Though I suspect his rivals wouldn't let him now, and the EU vote is going to damage him a lot too.

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    Good piece from McNish looking at the season gone and the one ahead:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/35123593

    Particularly agree with him over circuits coming and going.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I barely notice the Tories mentioning Labour. The media are doing a better job than the Opposition - but you can't vote for The Media Party.
    Patrick said:

    Is it just me or are the Tories deliberately going very very light on Corbyn? There's just so much historical (as well as current) baggage that they could very easily mount a destruction offensive. I suspect that they're simply being smart and waiting to do this in the run up to a GE. They were very light touch on Miliband, realising he was their best asset, and made sure they did nothing to unseat him until it was too late for any change - and then they tore him apart before the GE. His manifest unsuitability was brutally exposed. No doubt a repeat of the same is due for Corbyn. If he manages to survive internal defenestrations until then, I am sure we'll see a similarly brutal takedown (probably worse in fact) getting going in early 2020. It won't be hard! I don't think these current leader ratings will be the same in Feb 2020.

This discussion has been closed.