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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If it’s Farage versus Carswell then there can only be one o

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited December 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If it’s Farage versus Carswell then there can only be one outcome – the current leader will win

Nigel Farage on Douglas Carswell: "We have got one person going round the country giving the impression UKIP is split – that can’t go on."

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    Ferrets in a sack party.
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    The Game Of Thrones saga that is UKIP's internal politics continues.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    I remember when Carswell switched he said it was nice to be with a leader he agreed with, and Farage chuckled and said "It's early days yet!" I reluctantly thought it was rather charming at the time, but perhaps he was just being prophetic...
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited December 2015
    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place. As Cameron pointed out at PMQs, he was a Conservative when there wasn't a commitment to a referendum, and left when there was.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I can't see Douglas winning here - in a Battle of Egos, Nigel trumps Carswell.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I quite agree, I'm baffled too. But he's on the wrong side of the blanket now and has to live with his choice.

    I could see him retaining his seat as an Indy if he chose to jump again and resign his own whip.

    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place. As Cameron pointed out at PMQs, he was a Conservative when there wasn't a commitment to a referendum, and left when there was.

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    @stephenkb: Source reminds me of Ukip's one rule: "Nigel always wins" (Unless it's a seat in the Commons) http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/12/douglas-carswell-brings-ukips-splits-open
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    What qualifies as a "win"?

    If Nige stands down, that would clearly be a win for Carswell, but would it really be a win for Nige if his only MP left the party?
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    It takes a certain chutzpah for a single member party to have a back bench rebellion. #Redux
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    I remember when Carswell switched he said it was nice to be with a leader he agreed with, and Farage chuckled and said "It's early days yet!" I reluctantly thought it was rather charming at the time, but perhaps he was just being prophetic...

    The funny this is that his description of what UKIP should be today is far closer to Cameron than it is to Farage.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    Scott_P said:

    What qualifies as a "win"?

    If Nige stands down, that would clearly be a win for Carswell, but would it really be a win for Nige if his only MP left the party?

    If that MP became so rebellious that to all intents and purposes he was not really a UKIP MP anymore anyway, perhaps, but I suspect any win would be relative anyway, as internal squabbling is always going to be unedifying and, in the short term, unhelpful.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited December 2015
    Nigel would be an appalling backseat driver for any successor - Mrs T was bad enough, Paddy made life hell for Cleggers - those two would pale to nothing compared with Mr Farage.

    He treats UKIP as his personal plaything and feels his owns their brand.
    Scott_P said:

    What qualifies as a "win"?

    If Nige stands down, that would clearly be a win for Carswell, but would it really be a win for Nige if his only MP left the party?

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    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place. As Cameron pointed out at PMQs, he was a Conservative when there wasn't a commitment to a referendum, and left when there was.

    To influence/change UKIP and stop Farage losing the referendum, surely? Plus of course he felt (with some justification) that the Tories had junked parts of his agenda (recall etc.) that they had previously signed up to.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
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    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place. As Cameron pointed out at PMQs, he was a Conservative when there wasn't a commitment to a referendum, and left when there was.

    It seems to have been fuelled primarily by a visceral dislike of David Cameron. It's curious just how many UKIP activists seem to feel the same motivation.

    He's always struck me as quite hard to dislike, but obviously he presses some buttons with some people that I just don't have.
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    It is Mark Reckless I feel sorry for. Persuaded to defect by Carswell and now look where he is.

    Loitering around Wales in the hope of becoming a Welsh Assembly member.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Of course they could both lose.

    As with the Trump/Salmond spat, not an entirely undesirable outcome
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    It is Mark Reckless I feel sorry for.

    Pull the other one!
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    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place.

    Pay attention to antifrank, he wishes to occupy the iron throne of Euroscepticism
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048

    I quite agree, I'm baffled too. But he's on the wrong side of the blanket now and has to live with his choice.

    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place. As Cameron pointed out at PMQs, he was a Conservative when there wasn't a commitment to a referendum, and left when there was.

    He also burnt his bridges by detailing how awful it had been in the Tories for a long time before his defection. I can conceive of a situation where someone is like 'This one issue is so vital I have to leave' and then could return, chastened, if the situation changed, but even if he wanted to, and I don't think he does, returning to the Tories would be hard.

    Really it just seems like he is not set up for party politics, he's too individualistic, which you might be able to get away with if you were also quiet, but even if he was, as sole UKIP MP he won't be allowed to be quiet.
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    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place. As Cameron pointed out at PMQs, he was a Conservative when there wasn't a commitment to a referendum, and left when there was.

    It seems to have been fuelled primarily by a visceral dislike of David Cameron. It's curious just how many UKIP activists seem to feel the same motivation.

    He's always struck me as quite hard to dislike, but obviously he presses some buttons with some people that I just don't have.
    My own theory is that the leavers hate Cameron for giving them the referendum.

    Were Remain to win that seals the UK's future in the EU for a generation.
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    Mr. Eagles, you feel sorry for Reckless?

    You have as weak a grasp on grudges as you do history.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,067
    edited December 2015
    Scott_P said:

    What qualifies as a "win"?

    If Nige stands down, that would clearly be a win for Carswell, but would it really be a win for Nige if his only MP left the party?

    It's happened once already. But Bob Spink was, IIRC, generally regarded as on the far side of barking!
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    I quite agree, I'm baffled too. But he's on the wrong side of the blanket now and has to live with his choice.

    I could see him retaining his seat as an Indy if he chose to jump again and resign his own whip.

    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place. As Cameron pointed out at PMQs, he was a Conservative when there wasn't a commitment to a referendum, and left when there was.

    It only needs a 3.9% swing to be a Tory gain. Was a lot closer than I expected.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,979

    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place. As Cameron pointed out at PMQs, he was a Conservative when there wasn't a commitment to a referendum, and left when there was.

    It seems to have been fuelled primarily by a visceral dislike of David Cameron. It's curious just how many UKIP activists seem to feel the same motivation.

    He's always struck me as quite hard to dislike, but obviously he presses some buttons with some people that I just don't have.
    Douglas Carswell obviously knows him well. I've certainly had people say that he rubs them up the wrong way.
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    It is Mark Reckless I feel sorry for.

    Pull the other one!
    No I really do. He did Cameron a favouring by defecting.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/06/22/the-most-important-result-on-may-7th/

    I am the President of the PB Mark Reckless fan club
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    FPT:

    Just read Carswell's comments. I'm not sure he has any idea on who makes up the bulk of UKIP supporters and voters. It has been obvious for a while that UKIP draw more from Labour's wwc voters than they do from the Tory radical libertarian right. There are a lot more of them than there are of us.

    Myself, Richard Tyndall and Rob Smithson don't really add up to a party. Targeting such a small number of voters seems counter productive for UKIP given they are polling in the early teens and scored 12% in the GE and could push up towards 20% if Corbyn stays in place for 2020. Getting rid of Nigel is a must, make him the party chairman or something but they need a new leader with new drive and energy. Paul Nuttall would be my bet. Northern, speaks well and can galvanise the wwc voters better than Nigel. Keep Nigel there to "speak the unspeakable" about immigration etc... But get new energy in there as well.
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    Mr. Eagles, seals? For the time being.

    Even treaties can be ignored. Cf Troyes.
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    It seems to have been fuelled primarily by a visceral dislike of David Cameron. It's curious just how many UKIP activists seem to feel the same motivation.

    He's always struck me as quite hard to dislike, but obviously he presses some buttons with some people that I just don't have.

    Choosing a party or a position because of personal dislike strikes me as extremely childish, which is not something I'd associate with Carswell.
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    Mr. Eagles, you feel sorry for Reckless?

    You have as weak a grasp on grudges as you do history.

    Pour encourager les autres as they say
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,067

    Nigel would be an appalling backseat driver for any successor - Mrs T was bad enough, Paddy made life hell for Cleggers - those two would pale to nothing compared with Mr Farage.

    He treats UKIP as his personal plaything and feels his owns their brand.

    Scott_P said:

    What qualifies as a "win"?

    If Nige stands down, that would clearly be a win for Carswell, but would it really be a win for Nige if his only MP left the party?

    If Paddy was continually telling Clegg he was getting it wrong no wonder he was so dischuffed on election night. If Plato's right, could have been a lot better for Clegg and the Party if he listened to Paddy. And one or two others.
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    "UKIP if you want to. The Lady's NOT for kipping!" :lol:
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Is that all? He's vunerable then, but another swing Torywards seems unlikely in 2020.

    I quite agree, I'm baffled too. But he's on the wrong side of the blanket now and has to live with his choice.

    I could see him retaining his seat as an Indy if he chose to jump again and resign his own whip.

    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place. As Cameron pointed out at PMQs, he was a Conservative when there wasn't a commitment to a referendum, and left when there was.

    It only needs a 3.9% swing to be a Tory gain. Was a lot closer than I expected.
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    Is that all? He's vunerable then, but another swing Torywards seems unlikely in 2020.

    I quite agree, I'm baffled too. But he's on the wrong side of the blanket now and has to live with his choice.

    I could see him retaining his seat as an Indy if he chose to jump again and resign his own whip.

    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place. As Cameron pointed out at PMQs, he was a Conservative when there wasn't a commitment to a referendum, and left when there was.

    It only needs a 3.9% swing to be a Tory gain. Was a lot closer than I expected.
    Remember that there may well be boundary changes to his seat. The more extensive they are, the more difficult it will be for him to hold his seat.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Oh well, at least it gives the usual suspects a bit of fun, its Christmas so I'll be charitable.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    IIRC we won't know for sure until 2018. That makes waiting for the SIndy ref feel close.

    Is that all? He's vunerable then, but another swing Torywards seems unlikely in 2020.

    I quite agree, I'm baffled too. But he's on the wrong side of the blanket now and has to live with his choice.

    I could see him retaining his seat as an Indy if he chose to jump again and resign his own whip.

    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place. As Cameron pointed out at PMQs, he was a Conservative when there wasn't a commitment to a referendum, and left when there was.

    It only needs a 3.9% swing to be a Tory gain. Was a lot closer than I expected.
    Remember that there may well be boundary changes to his seat. The more extensive they are, the more difficult it will be for him to hold his seat.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    edited December 2015

    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Oh well, at least it gives the usual suspects a bit of fun, its Christmas so I'll be charitable.

    In fairness, Labour have been giving us this sort of entertainment for months now, and the Tories probably will come or just after the EU referendum, so it's really only the SNP and the LDs letting us down now. The SNP because they are so dominant nothing can touch them at present anyway, and the LDs because their position is so bleak it's too sad to start up internal fights, or enjoy them when they occur.
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    Scott_P said:

    What qualifies as a "win"?

    If Nige stands down, that would clearly be a win for Carswell, but would it really be a win for Nige if his only MP left the party?

    It's happened once already. But Bob Spink was, IIRC, generally regarded as on the far side of barking!
    Canvey's about as far as you can get the other side of Barking without falling in the sea
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    That Eurovision vote :wink:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12057349/EU-summit-reform-David-Cameron-Brexit-live.html#update-20151218-1210
    Enda Kenny: Cameron is asking for our help and we should give it to him

    David Cameron won support from Enda Kenny, the Taoiseach said they needed to repay Britain for help during the debt crisis. “David Cameron is asking for our help and we should give it to him,” he said.

    Sources described the meeting as very warm and good natured.
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    It is Mark Reckless I feel sorry for.

    Pull the other one!
    No I really do. He did Cameron a favouring by defecting.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/06/22/the-most-important-result-on-may-7th/

    I am the President of the PB Mark Reckless fan club
    Surely he should always be referred to as Mark Reckless tpd.
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    Is that all? He's vunerable then, but another swing Torywards seems unlikely in 2020.

    I quite agree, I'm baffled too. But he's on the wrong side of the blanket now and has to live with his choice.

    I could see him retaining his seat as an Indy if he chose to jump again and resign his own whip.

    It's baffling to me why Carswell defected in the first place. As Cameron pointed out at PMQs, he was a Conservative when there wasn't a commitment to a referendum, and left when there was.

    It only needs a 3.9% swing to be a Tory gain. Was a lot closer than I expected.
    I would make Clacton an odds on Tory gain next time. I fail to see how UKIP will win it without Carswell or how Carswell will win it with no party behind him. I can't see Carswell lasting five years in UKIP.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631

    Nigel would be an appalling backseat driver for any successor - Mrs T was bad enough, Paddy made life hell for Cleggers - those two would pale to nothing compared with Mr Farage.

    He treats UKIP as his personal plaything and feels his owns their brand.

    Scott_P said:

    What qualifies as a "win"?

    If Nige stands down, that would clearly be a win for Carswell, but would it really be a win for Nige if his only MP left the party?

    If Paddy was continually telling Clegg he was getting it wrong no wonder he was so dischuffed on election night. If Plato's right, could have been a lot better for Clegg and the Party if he listened to Paddy. And one or two others.
    Doubtful. It was Paddy's plan to run away from the government's record and make the Lib Dems look like the opposition. Given that the government's record was pretty good on the economy and other key areas bar immigration (which Lib Dems are broadly in favour of) it was a stupid plan and the Lib Dems disowned a lot of their own good work and let rhw Tories claim it as their own. Clegg and Cable should have been all over TV putting it about that lower income people were £800 per year better off than they would have been without a coalition and that poorer kids were getting a real chance at getting the best education because of them. Instead they were going about telling voters "look at how shit the Tories are and look at what we stopped them doing on immigration and the EU".
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    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Oh well, at least it gives the usual suspects a bit of fun, its Christmas so I'll be charitable.

    Honestly, this is nothing close to the clusterfuck I expect the Tory Party to go through either side of the referendum.

    The Tory Party doesn't stab its leaders in the back, we stab them in the front, usually very publicly.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    MaxPB said:

    FPT:

    Just read Carswell's comments. I'm not sure he has any idea on who makes up the bulk of UKIP supporters and voters. It has been obvious for a while that UKIP draw more from Labour's wwc voters than they do from the Tory radical libertarian right. There are a lot more of them than there are of us.

    Myself, Richard Tyndall and Rob Smithson don't really add up to a party. Targeting such a small number of voters seems counter productive for UKIP given they are polling in the early teens and scored 12% in the GE and could push up towards 20% if Corbyn stays in place for 2020. Getting rid of Nigel is a must, make him the party chairman or something but they need a new leader with new drive and energy. Paul Nuttall would be my bet. Northern, speaks well and can galvanise the wwc voters better than Nigel. Keep Nigel there to "speak the unspeakable" about immigration etc... But get new energy in there as well.

    Suzanne Evans is the best person for the job.

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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Sources described the meeting as very warm and good natured.''

    I have read articles saying that if Britain comes out, the Irish might have to come out, like it or not.
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    taffys said:

    ''Sources described the meeting as very warm and good natured.''

    I have read articles saying that if Britain comes out, the Irish might have to come out, like it or not.

    Cave Dameron :lol:
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    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Oh well, at least it gives the usual suspects a bit of fun, its Christmas so I'll be charitable.

    Honestly, this is nothing close to the clusterfuck I expect the Tory Party to go through either side of the referendum.

    The Tory Party doesn't stab its leaders in the back, we stab them in the front, usually very publicly.
    Jess Phillips!
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Oh well, at least it gives the usual suspects a bit of fun, its Christmas so I'll be charitable.

    Honestly, this is nothing close to the clusterfuck I expect the Tory Party to go through either side of the referendum.

    The Tory Party doesn't stab its leaders in the back, we stab them in the front, usually very publicly.
    Fair point, Ukip engaged plenty of people in politics, this will have the reverse effect. People are used to the main parties squabbling like children, this is all so unedifying.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,595
    edited December 2015

    It is Mark Reckless I feel sorry for.

    Pull the other one!
    No I really do. He did Cameron a favouring by defecting.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/06/22/the-most-important-result-on-may-7th/

    I am the President of the PB Mark Reckless fan club
    Surely he should always be referred to as Mark Reckless tpd.
    After the Ashcroft book, PB took an editorial decision not to talk about pigs ever again. We cannot afford therapy bills.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    kle4 said:

    The SNP because they are so dominant nothing can touch them at present anyway

    Maybe.

    There is possibly still some mileage in the Forth Road Bridge fiasco, especially with helpful idiots like Lesley Riddoch joining in.

    Ans Swinney's "Tory" budget has not received universal acclaim
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Thinking about @TheScreamingEagles comment on how a prodigal return of Carswell could be of value to the Conservatives. I guess that it would only make sense from the Conservative point of view if it were timed and stage-managed to maximum advantage. Eg, on the eve of the referendum Carswell does a "Dave was right and I was wrong" act. But he wouldn't do that in a million lifetimes would he?

    Otherwise the advantage to the Conservatives of letting him swing in the wind seems overwhelming.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631

    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Oh well, at least it gives the usual suspects a bit of fun, its Christmas so I'll be charitable.

    Honestly, this is nothing close to the clusterfuck I expect the Tory Party to go through either side of the referendum.

    The Tory Party doesn't stab its leaders in the back, we stab them in the front, usually very publicly.
    Sometimes parties need to have a public bloodletting to focus minds.
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    taffys said:

    ''Sources described the meeting as very warm and good natured.''

    I have read articles saying that if Britain comes out, the Irish might have to come out, like it or not.

    Ireland to re-join the Commonwealth?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    taffys said:

    ''Sources described the meeting as very warm and good natured.''

    I have read articles saying that if Britain comes out, the Irish might have to come out, like it or not.

    So much for independence i guess
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited December 2015
    I liked her - but Nuttal has the whole Northern WWC schtick. I find him a bit much, but then that's not my demographic despite being a Geordie WWC made good.

    MaxPB said:

    FPT:

    Just read Carswell's comments. I'm not sure he has any idea on who makes up the bulk of UKIP supporters and voters. It has been obvious for a while that UKIP draw more from Labour's wwc voters than they do from the Tory radical libertarian right. There are a lot more of them than there are of us.

    Myself, Richard Tyndall and Rob Smithson don't really add up to a party. Targeting such a small number of voters seems counter productive for UKIP given they are polling in the early teens and scored 12% in the GE and could push up towards 20% if Corbyn stays in place for 2020. Getting rid of Nigel is a must, make him the party chairman or something but they need a new leader with new drive and energy. Paul Nuttall would be my bet. Northern, speaks well and can galvanise the wwc voters better than Nigel. Keep Nigel there to "speak the unspeakable" about immigration etc... But get new energy in there as well.

    Suzanne Evans is the best person for the job.

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Oh well, at least it gives the usual suspects a bit of fun, its Christmas so I'll be charitable.

    Honestly, this is nothing close to the clusterfuck I expect the Tory Party to go through either side of the referendum.

    The Tory Party doesn't stab its leaders in the back, we stab them in the front, usually very publicly.
    Unless Cam recommends Leave. Then the bastards will be silenced.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,067
    MaxPB said:

    Nigel would be an appalling backseat driver for any successor - Mrs T was bad enough, Paddy made life hell for Cleggers - those two would pale to nothing compared with Mr Farage.

    He treats UKIP as his personal plaything and feels his owns their brand.

    Scott_P said:

    What qualifies as a "win"?

    If Nige stands down, that would clearly be a win for Carswell, but would it really be a win for Nige if his only MP left the party?

    If Paddy was continually telling Clegg he was getting it wrong no wonder he was so dischuffed on election night. If Plato's right, could have been a lot better for Clegg and the Party if he listened to Paddy. And one or two others.
    Doubtful. It was Paddy's plan to run away from the government's record and make the Lib Dems look like the opposition. Given that the government's record was pretty good on the economy and other key areas bar immigration (which Lib Dems are broadly in favour of) it was a stupid plan and the Lib Dems disowned a lot of their own good work and let rhw Tories claim it as their own. Clegg and Cable should have been all over TV putting it about that lower income people were £800 per year better off than they would have been without a coalition and that poorer kids were getting a real chance at getting the best education because of them. Instead they were going about telling voters "look at how shit the Tories are and look at what we stopped them doing on immigration and the EU".
    Can't disagree with that. Always said, too, that Clegg should have pulled the LD's out of the coalition around 12 months ago to campaign aggressively more or less on the lines suggested. Plus what a nasty lot the Tories were; as has been demonstrated since.
    Don't think it would have saved 40 seats but it might have saved another 15 or so.
    However, we are, sadly, where we are.
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited December 2015
    To me a key question is whether the annual Short money payments are set in stone for the whole of the parliament and that UKIP continues to get them whether it has any UKIP MPs or not?
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    RobD said:

    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Oh well, at least it gives the usual suspects a bit of fun, its Christmas so I'll be charitable.

    Honestly, this is nothing close to the clusterfuck I expect the Tory Party to go through either side of the referendum.

    The Tory Party doesn't stab its leaders in the back, we stab them in the front, usually very publicly.
    Unless Cam recommends Leave. Then the bastards will be silenced.
    It'll be the wrong kind of Leave.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    edited December 2015
    GE 2020:

    Clacton

    Carswell (Ind) Ind GAIN from UKIP.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    It'd make a lot of sense for them given our trading/historical linkages. If we could create a trading bloc of likeminded types with Denmark et al - I could see that working well.

    It'd take the serial moaners out of EU and let them federalise properly.
    taffys said:

    ''Sources described the meeting as very warm and good natured.''

    I have read articles saying that if Britain comes out, the Irish might have to come out, like it or not.

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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    RobD said:

    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Oh well, at least it gives the usual suspects a bit of fun, its Christmas so I'll be charitable.

    Honestly, this is nothing close to the clusterfuck I expect the Tory Party to go through either side of the referendum.

    The Tory Party doesn't stab its leaders in the back, we stab them in the front, usually very publicly.
    Unless Cam recommends Leave. Then the bastards will be silenced.
    The U-turn is already in the works. An emergency brake controlled by the EC. Cameron will simply declare victory and hope no one questions it. If UKIP are going to fart about like this then it is a distinct possibility that the likes of Redwood will be leading the Leave campaign which will definitely result in an In vote.
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    Wanderer said:

    RobD said:

    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Oh well, at least it gives the usual suspects a bit of fun, its Christmas so I'll be charitable.

    Honestly, this is nothing close to the clusterfuck I expect the Tory Party to go through either side of the referendum.

    The Tory Party doesn't stab its leaders in the back, we stab them in the front, usually very publicly.
    Unless Cam recommends Leave. Then the bastards will be silenced.
    It'll be the wrong kind of Leave.
    Leaves on the line!
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited December 2015
    This made me chuckle...

    http://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/2015/dec/18/my-students-have-paid-9000-and-now-they-think-they-own-me

    Although the author does have some what of a point, it is also the not living in the real world that makes me laugh...

    "I still don’t know what prompted this flyer campaign – rumour has it that it’s linked to a group of students who were denied assignment extensions – but I could not help but become annoyed at the blunt, consumerist language."

    Protesting fine, but how dare they, how very dare they, use consumerist language....Next thing they will be saying statues of Rhodes was ok.

    "He gave an account of a student who had requested a tutorial at 8pm, because his office hours of 9-11am"

    Imagine if the rest of the world ran where meetings could only be held rigidly between 9 and 11. 8pm is obviously unreasonable, but this notion of academics only making themselves available for very small windows once a week because they are "ohhh so busy and important".

    "teaching still only equates to 33% of my workload"

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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited December 2015
    It'd be the Wrong Sort Of Leave.

    EDIT I see @Wanderer is another great mind :smiley:
    RobD said:

    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Oh well, at least it gives the usual suspects a bit of fun, its Christmas so I'll be charitable.

    Honestly, this is nothing close to the clusterfuck I expect the Tory Party to go through either side of the referendum.

    The Tory Party doesn't stab its leaders in the back, we stab them in the front, usually very publicly.
    Unless Cam recommends Leave. Then the bastards will be silenced.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Oh well, at least it gives the usual suspects a bit of fun, its Christmas so I'll be charitable.

    Honestly, this is nothing close to the clusterfuck I expect the Tory Party to go through either side of the referendum.

    The Tory Party doesn't stab its leaders in the back, we stab them in the front, usually very publicly.
    Unless Cam recommends Leave. Then the bastards will be silenced.
    The U-turn is already in the works. An emergency brake controlled by the EC. Cameron will simply declare victory and hope no one questions it. If UKIP are going to fart about like this then it is a distinct possibility that the likes of Redwood will be leading the Leave campaign which will definitely result in an In vote.
    Yeah, an emergency brake ain't gonna cut it, especially since it'll be the EU bods deciding when the pull it.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    Don't think it would have saved 40 seats but it might have saved another 15 or so.
    However, we are, sadly, where we are.

    Or cost the other 8

    Would have been hilarious, campaigning aggressively against their own record in Government
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    If you want something to marvel at, the Guardian's crocodile tears over the closure of the last UK deep coal mine is something to behold.

    As is the complete absence of a link between their own green agenda and the destruction of the industry.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    You sound confused. You said he could stop migrant benefits without the EU consent but now it seems there are caveats.

    Interesting.

    It would be possible to stop migrant benefits without EU consent.

    All you would have to do is to say "all benefits require the recipient to have made four years of National Insurance contributions".

    Unfortunately, that would be politically unacceptable.

    As an aside, the Italian health system is contributory for all except emergency care. The result is that economic migrants - who are not paying contributions - cannot access it without paying.
    This is the real issue here. The government wont dare switch to a contributory based system, even though we have such a system for state pension and pretty much the rest of Europe does.

    Imagine the howling from the Guardian / BBC wing of the media if they switched to a system where you have to contribute first, the number of "hard luck" cases with 8 starving kids would be 1000's and 1000's. It would make the campaign against the bedroom tax look minor.
    I would vote for that. Maybe if Corbyn makes it to 2020 we can put that plus privatising the BBC on the 2020 manifesto.
    I don't think it will be the "hard luck" cases that will be exercising Cameron so much has the tens of thousands of Mr and Mrs FloatingVoter types with a couple of 18-20 year olds kids at home and on benefits, who would suddenly find themselves picking up the tab for their offspring's alcohol and PlayStation games. Ideally the public purse should not be paying for such items I think we can agree but that is an awful lot of voters to piss off.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited December 2015
    taffys said:

    If you want something to marvel at, the Guardian's crocodile tears over the closure of the last UK deep coal mine is something to behold.

    As is the complete absence of a link between their own green agenda and the destruction of the industry.

    I saw that...The chutzpah...but then this is the newspaper that goes to town on any suggestion of corporate tax dodging, tax efficiency or minimization.....while their parent trust has exploited many of the same loopholes on the sale of AutoTrader that ultimately is keeping them afloat. And any suggestion that they possibly were involved in any such conduct gets you a strongly worded denial from Polly.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    You sound confused. You said he could stop migrant benefits without the EU consent but now it seems there are caveats.

    Interesting.

    It would be possible to stop migrant benefits without EU consent.

    All you would have to do is to say "all benefits require the recipient to have made four years of National Insurance contributions".

    Unfortunately, that would be politically unacceptable.

    As an aside, the Italian health system is contributory for all except emergency care. The result is that economic migrants - who are not paying contributions - cannot access it without paying.
    This is the real issue here. The government wont dare switch to a contributory based system, even though we have such a system for state pension and pretty much the rest of Europe does.

    Imagine the howling from the Guardian / BBC wing of the media if they switched to a system where you have to contribute first, the number of "hard luck" cases with 8 starving kids would be 1000's and 1000's. It would make the campaign against the bedroom tax look minor.
    I would vote for that. Maybe if Corbyn makes it to 2020 we can put that plus privatising the BBC on the 2020 manifesto.
    I don't think it will be the "hard luck" cases that will be exercising Cameron so much has the tens of thousands of Mr and Mrs FloatingVoter types with a couple of 18-20 year olds kids at home and on benefits, who would suddenly find themselves picking up the tab for their offspring's alcohol and PlayStation games. Ideally the public purse should not be paying for such items I think we can agree but that is an awful lot of voters to piss off.
    A good reason to apply changes for new applicants only. They'll never have received it in the first place so won't know any better.
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    Re: Short money.
    Does anyone know if Carswell is still in control of the £350,000 pa (Mr Carswell has said he will accept no more than that)?
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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited December 2015

    I remember when Dr Sven Palmer switched he said it was nice to be with a leader he agreed with, and Bliar/Brown/Mili[MODERATED] and Corbyn chuckled and said "It's early days yet!" I reluctantly thought it was rather charming at the time, but perhaps he was just being prophetic...

    "No comment necessary...".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2F_hGwD26g

    :eejits:
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631

    MaxPB said:

    Nigel would be an appalling backseat driver for any successor - Mrs T was bad enough, Paddy made life hell for Cleggers - those two would pale to nothing compared with Mr Farage.

    He treats UKIP as his personal plaything and feels his owns their brand.

    Scott_P said:

    What qualifies as a "win"?

    If Nige stands down, that would clearly be a win for Carswell, but would it really be a win for Nige if his only MP left the party?

    If Paddy was continually telling Clegg he was getting it wrong no wonder he was so dischuffed on election night. If Plato's right, could have been a lot better for Clegg and the Party if he listened to Paddy. And one or two others.
    Doubtful. It was Paddy's plan to run away from the government's record and make the Lib Dems look like the opposition. Given that the government's record was pretty good on the economy and other key areas bar immigration (which Lib Dems are broadly in favour of) it was a stupid plan and the Lib Dems disowned a lot of their own good work and let rhw Tories claim it as their own. Clegg and Cable should have been all over TV putting it about that lower income people were £800 per year better off than they would have been without a coalition and that poorer kids were getting a real chance at getting the best education because of them. Instead they were going about telling voters "look at how shit the Tories are and look at what we stopped them doing on immigration and the EU".
    Can't disagree with that. Always said, too, that Clegg should have pulled the LD's out of the coalition around 12 months ago to campaign aggressively more or less on the lines suggested. Plus what a nasty lot the Tories were; as has been demonstrated since.
    Don't think it would have saved 40 seats but it might have saved another 15 or so.
    However, we are, sadly, where we are.
    Basing a campaign on "Tory scum" was never going to work given the strength of the government record. Instead they should have based it on "look at what coalition governments can achieve" and look at what we have achieved for Lib Dem voters of 2010. They tried to hard to win back the voters lost to Labour who in poll after poll have been shown to be left of the Labour party even. The Tories did what came naturally, they fought to win every seat they could. I don't think they can be blamed for hollowing out a coalition partner that was reluctant to take credit for the achievements in government.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    taffys said:

    ''There are three reasons why we might theoretically have allies:''

    Maybe but these will all be superseded by the overriding desire to prevent an alternative option to the status quo being created.

    Europe does not do competition.

    I've come to think so. One thing that drove me over the edge was the constant impression given that Britain would find no allies in asking for anything, and what's more the EU was getting sick and tired of hearing us complain and holding them back. That sort of no doubt officially sanctioned on and off the record talk makes me doubt there is any actual consideration of concerns the UK might raise, and therefore suspicious of anything we would be granted as being substantive. I can see the powers that be being willing to throw us a bauble to get us to shut up, but at the end of the day they do want us to shut up and stop rocking the board, and though we might have allies on some few issues (which we may be doing a poor job of marshalling) the majority seem to be in accord with the EU powerbrokers on that, and therefore have no genuine interest in reform, only stopping us and others from whinging.

    That's not healthy moving forward, for either side.
    You can understand everyone else getting fed up with Britain constantly whinging about something, though.
    I can, absolutely. We are holding most of them back from what they want to do, that would be frustrating. But it makes the agonized, drawn out process tiresome, and makes the occasional 'I'm sure we can work out something' seem false, since the true feeling of much of the EU elite seems to be that all is well, or at least that all will be well with more EU not less, and so pretending they can resolve our concerns lacks sincerity.

    Leaving might be a mistake. But if we stay we will be unhappy with the direction of travel, and they unhappy with our moaning, that's not fair to them or us.
    Leaving would be a mistake. For both sides, but the really bad consequences would be mostly on our side.
    Must be nice to have such pride in your country.... the can-do spirit of some knows no bounds. We have the fifth largest economy in the world for christ's sake, and we are shackled to a corpse, the trading bloc with the worse growth in the world, whose incompetence and protectionism prevents us forming free trade deals with China, and most of the Commonwealth who are growing well and with which we have strong ties.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @faisalislam: PM gives clear indication of vote next year at end of #euco and his backing for in after what he expects will be a successful deal in feb
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @patrickwintour: Big hint from Cameron that he is planning referendum next year even if he adds substance is more important than timing.
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    MaxPB said:

    Nigel would be an appalling backseat driver for any successor - Mrs T was bad enough, Paddy made life hell for Cleggers - those two would pale to nothing compared with Mr Farage.

    He treats UKIP as his personal plaything and feels his owns their brand.

    Scott_P said:

    What qualifies as a "win"?

    If Nige stands down, that would clearly be a win for Carswell, but would it really be a win for Nige if his only MP left the party?

    If Paddy was continually telling Clegg he was getting it wrong no wonder he was so dischuffed on election night. If Plato's right, could have been a lot better for Clegg and the Party if he listened to Paddy. And one or two others.
    Doubtful. It was Paddy's plan to run away from the government's record and make the Lib Dems look like the opposition. Given that the government's record was pretty good on the economy and other key areas bar immigration (which Lib Dems are broadly in favour of) it was a stupid plan and the Lib Dems disowned a lot of their own good work and let rhw Tories claim it as their own. Clegg and Cable should have been all over TV putting it about that lower income people were £800 per year better off than they would have been without a coalition and that poorer kids were getting a real chance at getting the best education because of them. Instead they were going about telling voters "look at how shit the Tories are and look at what we stopped them doing on immigration and the EU".
    Can't disagree with that. Always said, too, that Clegg should have pulled the LD's out of the coalition around 12 months ago to campaign aggressively more or less on the lines suggested. Plus what a nasty lot the Tories were; as has been demonstrated since.
    Don't think it would have saved 40 seats but it might have saved another 15 or so.
    However, we are, sadly, where we are.
    Very true. Clegg needed to pull out from the Coalition well before the GE to create separate space. Instead he thought they could get away with trashing their partners - anyone remember the Leaders debate where he turned on Cameron but Cameron did not attack him back? Clegg and his ministers would however have lost salary and the cars etc ... Ironic?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: PM gives clear indication of vote next year at end of #euco and his backing for in after what he expects will be a successful deal in feb

    So he's caved and accepted Junkers deal? Ugh

    Where Sunil? We need that "Stick it up your Junker" headline.
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    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: PM gives clear indication of vote next year at end of #euco and his backing for in after what he expects will be a successful deal in feb

    The deal is obviously done and dusted and all the press reports are just theatre...the real question is what has he actually got.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,715
    Cameron will announce that he has achieved the impossible - we will still be allowed to drink beer by the pint and quote distances in miles. Vote Remain.
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    Cameron will announce that he has achieved the impossible - we will still be allowed to drink beer by the pint and quote distances in miles. Vote Remain.

    You've forgotten the British sausage.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JakeReesMogg: Douglas Carswell should return to the Conservative benches and continue the Brexit fight from there.
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    This made me chuckle...

    http://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/2015/dec/18/my-students-have-paid-9000-and-now-they-think-they-own-me

    Although the author does have some what of a point, it is also the not living in the real world that makes me laugh...

    "I still don’t know what prompted this flyer campaign – rumour has it that it’s linked to a group of students who were denied assignment extensions – but I could not help but become annoyed at the blunt, consumerist language."

    Protesting fine, but how dare they, how very dare they, use consumerist language....Next thing they will be saying statues of Rhodes was ok.

    "He gave an account of a student who had requested a tutorial at 8pm, because his office hours of 9-11am"

    Imagine if the rest of the world ran where meetings could only be held rigidly between 9 and 11. 8pm is obviously unreasonable, but this notion of academics only making themselves available for very small windows once a week because they are "ohhh so busy and important".

    "teaching still only equates to 33% of my workload"

    Missive from the coalface.

    The students here might not be as demanding as that but we - as a profession - have got to sort out what we're selling them and how we're doing it. There's a mismatch in expectations and I have come to the opinion that we're not doing enough to frame those expectations in the first weeks of the degree and we're not doing enough to do the right thing for the remaining three years. A big chunk of the academics I've met are not doing the basics in a clear, professional manner.

    In a comment in the thread, for example, someone says they're up to 2 am dealing with student emails. Set your email to send one reply to a student account a day. The contract says an email reply within 48 hours. You're doing your part of the bargain. Why are you up at 0200 doing that?

    Office hours are constrained by your own timetable - I have no office hours two days of the week as I'm busy with teaching and I spare one day for research. Here, we're meant to make 3 hours per 10 credits available. It's a case of being clear what you're prepared to give and what is acceptable. Explaining why its 9 - 11am in light of other commitments will get a much better response than a blank refusal. A placement student emailed me to arrange a skype chat at 1700 on a Saturday. No chance, but we worked out a compromise that dealt with the time difference (and his international rugby career).


    "teaching still only equates to 33% of my workload"

    While it kind of does, that's a bit naive. We've 3 sets of duties - research, admin, teaching. Don't waste time on admin. Seriously. Find the best way to do a 8/10 job and jog on. Same with the teaching - find ways to be innovative, to get things done more efficiently, use technology wisely.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    Cameron will announce that he has achieved the impossible - we will still be allowed to drink beer by the pint and quote distances in miles. Vote Remain.

    You've forgotten the British sausage.
    *Clutches lapel*
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Scott_P said:

    @JakeReesMogg: Douglas Carswell should return to the Conservative benches and continue the Brexit fight from there.

    I think that account is a spoof?

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited December 2015

    A big chunk of the academics I've met are not doing the basics in a clear, professional manner.

    This is spot on....
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048

    Cameron will announce that he has achieved the impossible - we will still be allowed to drink beer by the pint and quote distances in miles. Vote Remain.

    You've forgotten the British sausage.
    Prime Minister Hacker already solved that problem, making Cameron's job that much easier.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,452
    edited December 2015
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: PM gives clear indication of vote next year at end of #euco and his backing for in after what he expects will be a successful deal in feb

    So he's caved and accepted Junkers deal? Ugh

    Where Sunil? We need that "Stick it up your Junker" headline.
    Cave Dameron, best PM in the Galaxy!

    Oh and as for the headline :lol:

    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/530051168790413313
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    Scott_P said:

    @JakeReesMogg: Douglas Carswell should return to the Conservative benches and continue the Brexit fight from there.

    Why should he be accepted back? How trustworthy is he? Just how valuable is is judgement? He is the one who ran off to UKIP only to suddenly realise (or despite the fact) that Farage was a pillock.
    If a man as self evidently dim as Carswell still thinks we should leave the EU then that strikes me as as good a reason as any to stay.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JakeReesMogg: Douglas Carswell should return to the Conservative benches and continue the Brexit fight from there.

    I think that account is a spoof?

    MP Jacob Rees-Mogg is to continue to be a Twitter refusenik – because a fake account in his name is more entertaining than he could ever be.

    Read more: http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/MP-Jacob-Rees-Mogg-happy-let-fake-Jake-Twitter/story-19838041-detail/story.html#ixzz3ug6PT4CZ
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    let them federalise properly.

    isn't that a taboo word? You'll be talking subsidiarity next!

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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited December 2015

    What an absolute mess, two decent people ultimately with the same aims washing dirty laundry in public. I suspect the vast majority of kippers, like me, are shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Farage has a long history of falling out with almost everyone that he has worked with. Carswell's disputes are fewer but still significant. This fallout was therefore inevitable. Farage's list of people he has had disputes with is very very long.
    5 out of 7 of the past leaders of the party quitting citing Farage as their reason!
    9 out of 18 elected UKIP MEPs (pre 2014) parting company with the party citing Farage, or at least his dictatorial behaviour, as the main reason!
    http://ukip-vs-eukip.com/ukip-members-quit/
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631

    Scott_P said:

    @JakeReesMogg: Douglas Carswell should return to the Conservative benches and continue the Brexit fight from there.

    Why should he be accepted back? How trustworthy is he? Just how valuable is is judgement? He is the one who ran off to UKIP only to suddenly realise (or despite the fact) that Farage was a pillock.
    If a man as self evidently dim as Carswell still thinks we should leave the EU then that strikes me as as good a reason as any to stay.
    That's a spoof account.
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    let them federalise properly.

    isn't that a taboo word? You'll be talking subsidiarity next!

    I'm drafting a pb article that uses the f word.
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    It's a real shame for "moderate" Eurosceptics (those who don't like ever closer union but eschew Colonel Blimp style xenophobia) that UKIP is seen as more or less a shambolic BNP-lite.

    Right now, more than ever, there needs to be a coherent and reasonable anti-EU movement with a clear message and vision for the UK to be able to choose a positive path other than "ever closer union". Cameron trying to make it all about benefits for Polish plumbers is absurd and almost insulting frankly. It should be about much bigger issues than that, but currently it's not.

    I can see us getting a Scotland style narrowish but still decisive vote to stay in, with most of the votes having been cast by people who have been very poorly served by the politicians in the sense that a proper debate on either side has simply not happened. What a waste.
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    Scott_P said:

    @JakeReesMogg: Douglas Carswell should return to the Conservative benches and continue the Brexit fight from there.

    You’ve got to be in it, to influence it - How very EU…!
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    let them federalise properly.

    isn't that a taboo word? You'll be talking subsidiarity next!

    I'm drafting a pb article that uses the f word.
    Been there, done that.

    On Mark Reckless defecting: "I can't say the word c**t but he's a f**king c**t who deserves a hot poker up his arse."

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/09/30/memo-to-the-tories-never-hate-your-enemies-it-affects-your-judgement/
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    Clearly the answer to UKIP's leadership question is Viscount Monckton of Brenchley.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,067
    edited December 2015
    We're almost re-fighting the Second Punic War, Or something like that! However!

    12-15 months ago I was arguing on here for the LD's leaving the coalition at or around Christmas 2014. The general view then was that I was posting rubbish, and in particular that Osborne would have produced a give-away budget, designed to be torn up after victory, which would have opened the way for a "can you REALLY tust the tories" campaign.
    I think "what we've achieved" would have saved some seats, and in particular NOT bombing Libya and Syria would have held on to a few of the LibLab votes.
    Many people think that 19th Century gunboat diplomacy, for that is what Tory policy often seems to be, is outmoded.
This discussion has been closed.