This is not an argument in favour of EU membership. It is merely to point out that Brexit would not mean we would suddenly sign a bunch of free trade agreements with China and the US and the like that did not have onerous implications for our sovereignty.
Yes, exactly - that is the key point. More than that, we'd immediately sign an agreement with the EU which would have the effect of us buying straight back in to what we'd just left. The Brexit debate is really about how much we'd buy back into, which is why it is so disappointing that the Leave side haven't done any serious thinking on this.
While this may all be true, the Tories should be wary that this could increasingly be seen as a referendum on "Cameron's renegotiation" - and how a whole tranche of lefties will be necessary to win.
As I said before, I personally will not be willing to vote to deny young British citizens benefits if they haven't "contributed", if that is part of the renegotiation.
"...oh, if only Cameron had negotiated X I'd've voted STAY, but he didn't, such a pity..."
Well, that was a pretty entertaining and lucrative evening at the KP. Could I point out that the bookies are still undervaluing Leicester City. I am on at 3000/1 on Leicester winning the title, but it is still possible to get 21 on Leicester City winning the league and 2/1 finishing top 4.
14/22 have the top team (Leicester City) has the team who are top after 16 games have gone on to win the title and 19/22 have finished top 2. Never has the top side at this point finished outside the top 4.
There is still money to be made...
They have had a ludicrously easy fixture list though I think
Still have to go to the Emirates, Man City, old Trafford, whl, anfield, and Stamford bridge haven't they?
We are 9 points clear of 5th place. A top 4 finish at 2/1 is excellent value.
And our away form is better than our home form. We last lost away in the league in March, 4:3 at Spurs.
Admittingly Chelsea were dogshit tonight, only making an effort after going 2 goals down. Even then they mostly did not seem interested. But one reason that other teams are rubbish is that Claudio has us set up very well in defence.
According to spreadex's points quote, Leicester are joint 5th on expected points, 2pts behind the team expected to finish 4th
In the morning i will run the program to see if that makes them value to finish top 4 at 2/1
Dear me Mr Nabavi you do get easily upset. My stance is straightforward despite your attempts to twist it.
As a free marketeer I see no reason why we should pay membership fees in order to trade with other countries. If we leave the EU the Germans will happily continue to sell us cars, if other countries decide they want to buy things from us they will.
Nothing could be more straightforward.
Apologies, it's true that I don't suffer fools gladly.
This is what you wrote:
The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
That nonsense having been completely demolished, you are now switching to a completely different argument, about membership fees, and for some bizarre reason talking about the Germans selling us cars. Quite what that has to do with whether being in the EU 'is a massive hindrance' is anyone's guess. Quite apart from anything else, they'd still be in the EU. You are arguing against your own point.
Haha! We are net contributors, of course the EU is a hindrance. We pay benefits to people who arrive here, of course it's a hindrance. We can't control our immigration levels, of course it's a hindrance.
I am only interested in OUR membership, something I've already pointed out, you can make a case all you like for Germany's benefits, I'm English and I live in the UK, I'm not interested in the Germans nor they in us.
You should have realised by now that once you lose your cool and throw insults you've lost it, not for the first time this has happened to you. I want to leave the EU for the reasons I've pointed out, you want to stay because the PM does, now calm down, stop shouting and pull yourself together man.
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
Well, that was a pretty entertaining and lucrative evening at the KP. Could I point out that the bookies are still undervaluing Leicester City. I am on at 3000/1 on Leicester winning the title, but it is still possible to get 21 on Leicester City winning the league and 2/1 finishing top 4.
14/22 have the top team (Leicester City) has the team who are top after 16 games have gone on to win the title and 19/22 have finished top 2. Never has the top side at this point finished outside the top 4.
There is still money to be made...
They have had a ludicrously easy fixture list though I think
Still have to go to the Emirates, Man City, old Trafford, whl, anfield, and Stamford bridge haven't they?
We are 9 points clear of 5th place. A top 4 finish at 2/1 is excellent value.
And our away form is better than our home form. We last lost away in the league in March, 4:3 at Spurs.
Admittingly Chelsea were dogshit tonight, only making an effort after going 2 goals down. Even then they mostly did not seem interested. But one reason that other teams are rubbish is that Claudio has us set up very well in defence.
According to spreadex's points quote, Leicester are joint 5th on expected points, 2pts behind the team expected to finish 4th
In the morning i will run the program to see if that makes them value to finish top 4 at 2/1
Quite a shrewdie on Twitter makes them 11/10 mind you
Well, that was a pretty entertaining and lucrative evening at the KP. Could I point out that the bookies are still undervaluing Leicester City. I am on at 3000/1 on Leicester winning the title, but it is still possible to get 21 on Leicester City winning the league and 2/1 finishing top 4.
14/22 have the top team (Leicester City) has the team who are top after 16 games have gone on to win the title and 19/22 have finished top 2. Never has the top side at this point finished outside the top 4.
There is still money to be made...
They have had a ludicrously easy fixture list though I think
Still have to go to the Emirates, Man City, old Trafford, whl, anfield, and Stamford bridge haven't they?
We are 9 points clear of 5th place. A top 4 finish at 2/1 is excellent value.
And our away form is better than our home form. We last lost away in the league in March, 4:3 at Spurs.
Admittingly Chelsea were dogshit tonight, only making an effort after going 2 goals down. Even then they mostly did not seem interested. But one reason that other teams are rubbish is that Claudio has us set up very well in defence.
According to spreadex's points quote, Leicester are joint 5th on expected points, 2pts behind the team expected to finish 4th
In the morning i will run the program to see if that makes them value to finish top 4 at 2/1
Like I said, the bookies have not caught up with how good Leicester City are. That is why some value remains. Mahrez as top goal scorer is value at 20/1 too. Go ew on that one.
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
You've already been told they're cheaper in the U.S.
The EU will punish the UK, hard. It will not be pretty.
What will they do to punish us?
I believe the plan is to spank us...
More seriously: the big issue with leaving the EU is not the ultimate destination, but a period - ...K's relationship with the EU post-Brexit will have an inevitable impact on invesmtent in the UK.
I noted in the Janker letter that the language was all about "speed towards an ever closer union" and allowing countries to move towards at this at differing speeds. The EU bods can never ever contemplate that perhaps countries or citizens don't want ever closer union, that perhaps it is close enough already.
That's absolutely right. And I think the EU would be better off changing to a different structure:
Eurozone
+
EEA, non-Eurozone
Essentially, those European countries who are not Eurozone members would leave the EU. All competences over the Eurozone would then go to the EU. This would enable them to make the steps they need to make to solve their problems.
The EEA would remain a part of the single market, and would retain the "four freedoms", but would not be bound by labour laws, and governments would be allowed to discriminate in favour of their own citizens.
The EEA would be allowed to veto EU legislation, but not legislation that only affected the Eurozone.
That is exactly what is required Robert. I'd vote for it!
As it is, I'll be voting leave. I'm convinced that only an out vote will force EU into action.
I think it would work for us, for none Eurozone EU members, and for the Eurozone.
Unfortunately, Dave is too chicken to pursue it.
Indeed. My fear re: the referendum is that a leave vote forces the Tory party leadership, presumably led by an Outer (Hammond? Paterson?) into a position where it has to negotiate the post-EU settlement whilst the braying hordes of fervent outers demand 'pulling up the drawbridge' and 'going back to the days of Empire'.
In reality the post EU settlement would need to be, as you say, a looser arrangement that preserves our significant attachments to Europe, without the detrimental effects of the EU and especially EZ - but that might be politically difficult to secure support for if leave has won.
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
The UK is the second biggest car market in Europe after Germany. They're not going to jeopardise their sales here, or walk away. And if they do, the Japanese will be more than happy to grab the baton from VW and BMW.
Well, that was a pretty entertaining and lucrative evening at the KP. Could I point out that the bookies are still undervaluing Leicester City. I am on at 3000/1 on Leicester winning the title, but it is still possible to get 21 on Leicester City winning the league and 2/1 finishing top 4.
14/22 have the top team (Leicester City) has the team who are top after 16 games have gone on to win the title and 19/22 have finished top 2. Never has the top side at this point finished outside the top 4.
There is still money to be made...
They have had a ludicrously easy fixture list though I think
Still have to go to the Emirates, Man City, old Trafford, whl, anfield, and Stamford bridge haven't they?
We are 9 points clear of 5th place. A top 4 finish at 2/1 is excellent value.
And our away form is better than our home form. We last lost away in the league in March, 4:3 at Spurs.
Admittingly Chelsea were dogshit tonight, only making an effort after going 2 goals down. Even then they mostly did not seem interested. But one reason that other teams are rubbish is that Claudio has us set up very well in defence.
According to spreadex's points quote, Leicester are joint 5th on expected points, 2pts behind the team expected to finish 4th
In the morning i will run the program to see if that makes them value to finish top 4 at 2/1
Like I said, the bookies have not caught up with how good Leicester City are. That is why some value remains. Mahrez as top goal scorer is value at 20/1 too. Go ew on that one.
Ha I'm offering best odds on Betfair about him, fill your boots! Much bigger than 20:1
The best bets top gpalscorer are Vardy at 15/8 and Giroud at 16/1 IMO
The most obvious and salient point is that the country you refer to makes things people want to buy.
And is able to sell them, fantastically successfully (more successfully than any other developed nation), all over the world. And yet - according to you - it is hidebound by being a member of the EU.
You don't see a tiny little problemette with your position?
Or, to put it more accurately, your position is completely and comprehensively demolished by the facts.
You should worry more about how to answer the argument that Germany has been helped by EU membership, which gives it such a big home market. It's a jolly strong argument for the Remain side.
What a total pile of rotten, raggedy pants
Postwar Germany has benefited by
1. being German and efficient and culturally industrious
2. being in the euro which is undervalued re the Deutschmark, enabling it export
and
3. it hasn't even benefited that much. Median German wages have stagnated since the creation of the eurozone
You can do better than this, Mr Nabavi. If the arguments for REMAIN are basically going to be LIES then you are going to LOSE
You misrepresented Nabavi's position. He pointed out that EU membership did not (in and of itself) cause low exports and proved it by pointing out a large exception - Germany. Characterising that argument as a lie was untrue.
Well, that was a pretty entertaining and lucrative evening at the KP. Could I point out that the bookies are still undervaluing Leicester City. I am on at 3000/1 on Leicester winning the title, but it is still possible to get 21 on Leicester City winning the league and 2/1 finishing top 4.
14/22 have the top team (Leicester City) has the team who are top after 16 games have gone on to win the title and 19/22 have finished top 2. Never has the top side at this point finished outside the top 4.
There is still money to be made...
They have had a ludicrously easy fixture list though I think
Still have to go to the Emirates, Man City, old Trafford, whl, anfield, and Stamford bridge haven't they?
We are 9 points clear of 5th place. A top 4 finish at 2/1 is excellent value.
And our away form is better than our home form. We last lost away in the league in March, 4:3 at Spurs.
Admittingly Chelsea were dogshit tonight, only making an effort after going 2 goals down. Even then they mostly did not seem interested. But one reason that other teams are rubbish is that Claudio has us set up very well in defence.
According to spreadex's points quote, Leicester are joint 5th on expected points, 2pts behind the team expected to finish 4th
In the morning i will run the program to see if that makes them value to finish top 4 at 2/1
Like I said, the bookies have not caught up with how good Leicester City are. That is why some value remains. Mahrez as top goal scorer is value at 20/1 too. Go ew on that one.
Ha I'm offering best odds on Betfair about him, fill your boots! Much bigger than 20:1
The best bets top gpalscorer are Vardy at 15/8 and Giroud at 16/1 IMO
Yes. I think that ew though Mahrez is good value. He made Chelseas defence look like chumps tonight.
Well, that was a pretty entertaining and lucrative evening at the KP. Could I point out that the bookies are still undervaluing Leicester City. I am on at 3000/1 on Leicester winning the title, but it is still possible to get 21 on Leicester City winning the league and 2/1 finishing top 4.
14/22 have the top team (Leicester City) has the team who are top after 16 games have gone on to win the title and 19/22 have finished top 2. Never has the top side at this point finished outside the top 4.
There is still money to be made...
They have had a ludicrously easy fixture list though I think
Still have to go to the Emirates, Man City, old Trafford, whl, anfield, and Stamford bridge haven't they?
We are 9 points clear of 5th place. A top 4 finish at 2/1 is excellent value.
And our away form is better than our home form. We last lost away in the league in March, 4:3 at Spurs.
Admittingly Chelsea were dogshit tonight, only making an effort after going 2 goals down. Even then they mostly did not seem interested. But one reason that other teams are rubbish is that Claudio has us set up very well in defence.
According to spreadex's points quote, Leicester are joint 5th on expected points, 2pts behind the team expected to finish 4th
In the morning i will run the program to see if that makes them value to finish top 4 at 2/1
Like I said, the bookies have not caught up with how good Leicester City are. That is why some value remains. Mahrez as top goal scorer is value at 20/1 too. Go ew on that one.
Ha I'm offering best odds on Betfair about him, fill your boots! Much bigger than 20:1
The best bets top gpalscorer are Vardy at 15/8 and Giroud at 16/1 IMO
Yes. I think that ew though Mahrez is good value. He made Chelseas defence look like chumps tonight.
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
The UK is the second biggest car market in Europe after Germany. They're not going to jeopardise their sales here, or walk away. And if they do, the Japanese will be more than happy to grab the baton from VW and BMW.
The new C class Mercedes I bought in the UK in 1998 is still more expensive than a 2016 C class here. But the car market here is very different to Europe. A large part of the US vehicle market is pickup trucks. They are amazingly cheap for what you get. The F150 - for many years it was the world's best selling vehicle even though only sold in N America. It has an all aluminum body and is amazingly comfortable, built on a full chassis, very roomy, and functions as a family sedan. You can get a brand new well equipped F150 for $35-40k. It owns the US truck market and has for 35 years. That holds car prices down.
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
The UK is the second biggest car market in Europe after Germany. They're not going to jeopardise their sales here, or walk away. And if they do, the Japanese will be more than happy to grab the baton from VW and BMW.
The new C class Mercedes I bought in the UK in 1998 is still more expensive than a 2016 C class here. But the car market here is very different to Europe. A large part of the US vehicle market is pickup trucks. They are amazingly cheap for what you get. The F150 - for many years it was the world's best selling vehicle even though only sold in N America. It has an all aluminum body and is amazingly comfortable, built on a full chassis, very roomy, and functions as a family sedan. You can get a brand new well equipped F150 for $35-40k. It owns the US truck market and has for 35 years. That holds car prices down.
Without the consistent sales of the F150, Ford would have been in serious trouble at various points over the years.
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
The UK is the second biggest car market in Europe after Germany. They're not going to jeopardise their sales here, or walk away. And if they do, the Japanese will be more than happy to grab the baton from VW and BMW.
I understand your argument but it is not an answer to my question ("under what circumstances and for what cost will the Germans continue to sell us cars?"). Tim in the USA points out that that they are cheaper in the USA (good) but also notes that this us due to high levels of tax, which is not going to change in the UK post-Brexit (bad). Merely stating that it is not in Germany's interest to change the existing arrangements is not a sufficient argument, because countries make choices against their better interest all the time.[1]
I assume the trading arrangements post-Brexit would be at best the same (legislative inertia leading to wholesale adoption of the status quo) and at worse, worse (TANSTAAFL). I genuinely don't see an improvement here.
[1] Immediately prior to the invasion of France, Germany's biggest trading partner was...France
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
The UK is the second biggest car market in Europe after Germany. They're not going to jeopardise their sales here, or walk away. And if they do, the Japanese will be more than happy to grab the baton from VW and BMW.
The new C class Mercedes I bought in the UK in 1998 is still more expensive than a 2016 C class here. But the car market here is very different to Europe. A large part of the US vehicle market is pickup trucks. They are amazingly cheap for what you get. The F150 - for many years it was the world's best selling vehicle even though only sold in N America. It has an all aluminum body and is amazingly comfortable, built on a full chassis, very roomy, and functions as a family sedan. You can get a brand new well equipped F150 for $35-40k. It owns the US truck market and has for 35 years. That holds car prices down.
Without the consistent sales of the F150, Ford would have been in serious trouble at various points over the years.
This is true, particularly in the late 70s and to some extent during the 2008 crisis, but they are the only one of the big 3 not to take government money. The F series of trucks - there are a lot of them - has saved Ford's bacon more than once.
They have a great product line of cars and trucks now and (I think) have the biggest market share of the big 3.
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
You've already been told they're cheaper in the U.S.
I have also been told *why* that is (higher level of tax on this side of the pond). The UK post-Brexit will not magically change into 1980's Hong Kong and slough off seventy years of welfarism and become a low-tax Nirvana[1], so those tax levels will stay.
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
You've already been told they're cheaper in the U.S.
I have also been told *why* that is (higher level of tax on this side of the pond). The UK post-Brexit will not magically change into 1980's Hong Kong and slough off seventy years of welfarism and become a low-tax Nirvana[1], so those tax levels will stay.
[1] Not that one, the other one.
It's more than that. The car market here is different because of the number of cheap pickup trucks sold which holds down the price. Check my comment a few minutes ago.
Also Mercedes has a manufacturing plant in Alabama and BMW does in South Carolina, both of which came with large tax holidays.
Also they are both right to work states. No unions. The VW plant in Tennessee is also in a right to work state, but VW is trying to introduce unions!
There is really nothing that anyone can do to stop Brexit now. The press has painted such a ridiculous, biased portrait of the EU for so many years that it is deeply ingrained. It's also a much easier sell, lies usually are - it's how No could win Indyref.
The EU will punish the UK, hard. It will not be pretty.
What rubbish.
Personally, I think both the EU and the UK would be stronger for Brexit.
We are a reluctant member of the club. It makes us unhappy, it makes our friends on the continent unhappy. If we leave, we're happier.
And the Euro-philes (as in lovers of the Euro...) will be happier too. Eurozone integration will be a lot easier without us around. And it will force EU institutions to realise that countries can and will leave if they are not happy. I am a big believer that you need crises (Britain in the 1970s, Germany post-unification) to force difficult but necessary change through. Brexit is the crisis that the EU needs.
And for us: we'll no longer be in an unhappy marriage.
The EU wish to see the UK Financial Sector spread out more evenly. There are hungry bankers in Paris, Berlin, Turin, Santander and Dublin who will happily accept more of those jobs moving to their territories.
That's pretty much the entire English economy - banking and buy to let. It will hurt England hugely when those jobs and businesses relocate. Lots already started the move to Dublin. The rest of the EU is salivating.
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
You've already been told they're cheaper in the U.S.
I have also been told *why* that is (higher level of tax on this side of the pond). The UK post-Brexit will not magically change into 1980's Hong Kong and slough off seventy years of welfarism and become a low-tax Nirvana[1], so those tax levels will stay.
[1] Not that one, the other one.
It's more than that. The car market here is different because of the number of cheap pickup trucks sold which holds down the price. Check my comment a few minutes ago.
Also Mercedes has a manufacturing plant in Alabama and BMW does in South Carolina, both of which came with large tax holidays.
Also they are both right to work states. No unions. The VW plant in Tennessee is also in a right to work state, but VW is trying to introduce unions!
There is really nothing that anyone can do to stop Brexit now. The press has painted such a ridiculous, biased portrait of the EU for so many years that it is deeply ingrained. It's also a much easier sell, lies usually are - it's how No could win Indyref.
The EU will punish the UK, hard. It will not be pretty.
What rubbish.
Personally, I think both the EU and the UK would be stronger for Brexit.
We are a reluctant member of the club. It makes us unhappy, it makes our friends on the continent unhappy. If we leave, we're happier.
And the Euro-philes (as in lovers of the Euro...) will be happier too. Eurozone integration will be a lot easier without us around. And it will force EU institutions to realise that countries can and will leave if they are not happy. I am a big believer that you need crises (Britain in the 1970s, Germany post-unification) to force difficult but necessary change through. Brexit is the crisis that the EU needs.
And for us: we'll no longer be in an unhappy marriage.
The EU wish to see the UK Financial Sector spread out more evenly. There are hungry bankers in Paris, Berlin, Turin, Santander and Dublin who will happily accept more of those jobs moving to their territories.
That's pretty much the entire English economy - banking and buy to let. It will hurt England hugely when those jobs and businesses relocate. Lots already started the move to Dublin. The rest of the EU is salivating.
I've often thought Dublin would be the benefactor of a Brexit: same timezone, same language, less of a sense of entitlement. But that's more theoretical than experiential. Do you have names of companies that have actually relocated, or have adopted functions previously done in, say, the South East of England?
@britainelects: EU referendum poll: Remain: 40% (-2) Leave: 42% (+2) (via Survation / early Dec) 10k person sample size.
"Don't know" is remain in disguise.
That is "leave" problem.
Won't stop Dave getting the heebie jeebies over the polling though.
I can genuinely see Leave winning now. Something I thought inconceivable two years ago.
From the migration crisis to a lazy prime minister, everything is in Leave's favour.
I'd put Remain at 1/2 , a year ago I'd have put Remain at 1/20
The one thing the Inners have is almost total control of the timing
This is going to be like the Indyref all over again isn't it, with you going all ponceyboots gaylord over every poll?
I have no snail in this race. I fervently wanted NO to win indyref, I don't especially mind who wins eu-ref. I can see advantages with either choice.
So my perspective may be more valuable. Or not. Besides, I'm drunk.
I'm suffering from whiplash from my own mood swings on this referendum.
A year ago I was a committed Europhile, now I'm leaning towards Leave.
Just waiting for the EU referendum so I can do threads entitled
Europe: The Final Countdown
Although of course there is a Braveheart element (a single currency would after all have meant giving up our sovereignty), the EU does not ignite people and, in its current form, nor will it up to and including indyref.
Most people see it as this sprawling mass, just like your local council but bigger. A few are big fans and a few detest it, but it is difficult one way or another to rally around, for example, Directive 2004/39/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 21 April 2004 amending Council Directives 85/611/EEC and 93/6/EEC and Directive 000/12/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council and repealing Council Directive 93/22/EEC (OJ L 145, 30.4.2004, p. 1).
For example.
I'm in favour of a single European currency. So long as that currency is Sterling and the Bank of England runs the show.
That's pretty much the problem of the UK attitude to the EU.
The UK wants a competitive advantage. The EU wants a level playing field. After Brexit, the UK will know exactly how hard an uneven playing field feels.
I'm in favour of a single European currency. So long as that currency is Sterling and the Bank of England runs the show.
That's pretty much the problem of the UK attitude to the EU.
The UK wants a competitive advantage. The EU wants a level playing field. After Brexit, the UK will know exactly how hard an uneven playing field feels.
Bbbut I don't understand. Surely post-Brexit all immigrants will leave without affecting growth, all trade links will stay the same or get better, all bills will reduce, all income increase, every child with scabby knees will become magically better and no granny will go unkissed? It is the universal nostrum, the very panacea of our age! Surely the Eurosceptics cannot possibly be wrong!? Say it ain't so, Joe!
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
You've already been told they're cheaper in the U.S.
I have also been told *why* that is (higher level of tax on this side of the pond). The UK post-Brexit will not magically change into 1980's Hong Kong and slough off seventy years of welfarism and become a low-tax Nirvana[1], so those tax levels will stay.
[1] Not that one, the other one.
It's more than that. The car market here is different because of the number of cheap pickup trucks sold which holds down the price. Check my comment a few minutes ago.
Also Mercedes has a manufacturing plant in Alabama and BMW does in South Carolina, both of which came with large tax holidays.
Also they are both right to work states. No unions. The VW plant in Tennessee is also in a right to work state, but VW is trying to introduce unions!
Ah yes, thank you for telling me. Good to know.
Plus in the UK when I bought my car the VAT rate was 25%. Here the sales tax was 6%.
The latest idea they have here is that when you buy a car they roll the annual tax fees into the car loan when you buy so you just pay the loan each month. Makes sense. No annual tax discs from the Post Office (or here stickers on the rear license plate - there is no front plate in Georgia).
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
You've already been told they're cheaper in the U.S.
I have also been told *why* that is (higher level of tax on this side of the pond). The UK post-Brexit will not magically change into 1980's Hong Kong and slough off seventy years of welfarism and become a low-tax Nirvana[1], so those tax levels will stay.
[1] Not that one, the other one.
It's more than that. The car market here is different because of the number of cheap pickup trucks sold which holds down the price. Check my comment a few minutes ago.
Also Mercedes has a manufacturing plant in Alabama and BMW does in South Carolina, both of which came with large tax holidays.
Also they are both right to work states. No unions. The VW plant in Tennessee is also in a right to work state, but VW is trying to introduce unions!
Ah yes, thank you for telling me. Good to know.
Plus in the UK when I bought my car the VAT rate was 25%. Here the sales tax was 6%.
The latest idea they have here is that when you buy a car they roll the annual tax fees into the car loan when you buy so you just pay the loan each month. Makes sense. No annual tax discs from the Post Office (or here stickers on the rear license plate - there is no front plate in Georgia).
I think the way car tax is paid in the UK has also changed, but maybe somebody who drives can advise you better than I
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
You've already been told they're cheaper in the U.S.
I have also been told *why* that is (higher level of tax on this side of the pond). The UK post-Brexit will not magically change into 1980's Hong Kong and slough off seventy years of welfarism and become a low-tax Nirvana[1], so those tax levels will stay.
[1] Not that one, the other one.
It's more than that. The car market here is different because of the number of cheap pickup trucks sold which holds down the price. Check my comment a few minutes ago.
Also Mercedes has a manufacturing plant in Alabama and BMW does in South Carolina, both of which came with large tax holidays.
Also they are both right to work states. No unions. The VW plant in Tennessee is also in a right to work state, but VW is trying to introduce unions!
Ah yes, thank you for telling me. Good to know.
Plus in the UK when I bought my car the VAT rate was 25%. Here the sales tax was 6%.
The latest idea they have here is that when you buy a car they roll the annual tax fees into the car loan when you buy so you just pay the loan each month. Makes sense. No annual tax discs from the Post Office (or here stickers on the rear license plate - there is no front plate in Georgia).
I think the way car tax is paid in the UK has also changed, but maybe somebody who drives can advise you better than I
You have a chauffeur!!!!
I used to have to go to the Post Office, not eat for a week, and put down the wad of cash on the counter. It's much easier here......
One of the more stupid ideas is to have different colored plates on the front and back. Who the hell tracks the front plate?
" In Britain the numbers are not quite as stark: the equivalent factoid is that the five richest families are as wealthy as the poorest 20% of the population combined. There’s still a very big difference, but nowhere near as great as in the US."
Counting this stuff is pretty complicated. Bearing in mind that a substantial % of British people have zero or negative financial net worth. even someone with just £1000 in their bank account is "wealthier" than a substantial percentage of the population combined!
But we often don't account as "wealth" things like the value of future state pension rights, or the discounted present value of the cash flow from someone's stream of benefits, or what their right to free NHS treatment is worth... which makes international comparisons about how wealthy we are very misleading, but also messes up "percentage of national wealth" wealth comparisons internally (since it muddies the issue of what a "true zero" for wealth would be).
Last paragraph +1.
I saw some figures highlighted by Tim Worstall today that pension and health rights accounted for perhaps more than total private wealth. USA figures :-).
Ah, good to see Lotus Domino still in action. Fantastic technology in its day, undeservingly neglected by IBM.
On topic I don't think even many Guardian readers seriously believe that British police have directly killed 1061 people in 2015. @thecounted clearly states at the top of its Twittter page that it is the "@GuardianUS's project to document people killed by police in the US". Presumably this is part of the Guardian's efforts to become more international in its reach.
I'm in favour of a single European currency. So long as that currency is Sterling and the Bank of England runs the show.
That's pretty much the problem of the UK attitude to the EU.
The UK wants a competitive advantage. The EU wants a level playing field. After Brexit, the UK will know exactly how hard an uneven playing field feels.
Bbbut I don't understand. Surely post-Brexit all immigrants will leave without affecting growth, all trade links will stay the same or get better, all bills will reduce, all income increase, every child with scabby knees will become magically better and no granny will go unkissed? It is the universal nostrum, the very panacea of our age! Surely the Eurosceptics cannot possibly be wrong!? Say it ain't so, Joe!
Bit like Scottish Independence (according to the SNP) then......
If the wealth of top 3% is considered not just 1% I suspect the figure will be more representative of what people in UK expect to be top 1%. Either way 97% have, relatively speaking, far less.
" In Britain the numbers are not quite as stark: the equivalent factoid is that the five richest families are as wealthy as the poorest 20% of the population combined. There’s still a very big difference, but nowhere near as great as in the US."
Counting this stuff is pretty complicated. Bearing in mind that a substantial % of British people have zero or negative financial net worth. even someone with just £1000 in their bank account is "wealthier" than a substantial percentage of the population combined!
But we often don't account as "wealth" things like the value of future state pension rights, or the discounted present value of the cash flow from someone's stream of benefits, or what their right to free NHS treatment is worth... which makes international comparisons about how wealthy we are very misleading, but also messes up "percentage of national wealth" wealth comparisons internally (since it muddies the issue of what a "true zero" for wealth would be).
Last paragraph +1.
I saw some figures highlighted by Tim Worstall today that pension and health rights accounted for perhaps more than total private wealth. USA figures :-).
Ah, good to see Lotus Domino still in action. Fantastic technology in its day, undeservingly neglected by IBM.
On topic I don't think even many Guardian readers seriously believe that British police have directly killed 1061 people in 2015. @thecounted clearly states at the top of its Twittter page that it is the "@GuardianUS's project to document people killed by police in the US". Presumably this is part of the Guardian's efforts to become more international in its reach.
Didn't spot that. Wowowow.
I miss Magellan.
There's a sort of love/hate relationship with the police in UK, isn't there. As a motorist, worry ... what I am doing wrong ... must be something, as a Guardian reader ... what are they getting wrong now ...... then when something suspicious happens in the neighbourhood, onto them straight away1 Mind, if I was a Wail reader I'd be really worried as a motorist. They'd be bound to be trying to catch me doing something wrong!
" In Britain the numbers are not quite as stark: the equivalent factoid is that the five richest families are as wealthy as the poorest 20% of the population combined. There’s still a very big difference, but nowhere near as great as in the US."
Counting this stuff is pretty complicated. Bearing in mind that a substantial % of British people have zero or negative financial net worth. even someone with just £1000 in their bank account is "wealthier" than a substantial percentage of the population combined!
But we often don't account as "wealth" things like the value of future state pension rights, or the discounted present value of the cash flow from someone's stream of benefits, or what their right to free NHS treatment is worth... which makes international comparisons about how wealthy we are very misleading, but also messes up "percentage of national wealth" wealth comparisons internally (since it muddies the issue of what a "true zero" for wealth would be).
Last paragraph +1.
I saw some figures highlighted by Tim Worstall today that pension and health rights accounted for perhaps more than total private wealth. USA figures :-).
Ah, good to see Lotus Domino still in action. Fantastic technology in its day, undeservingly neglected by IBM.
On topic I don't think even many Guardian readers seriously believe that British police have directly killed 1061 people in 2015. @thecounted clearly states at the top of its Twittter page that it is the "@GuardianUS's project to document people killed by police in the US". Presumably this is part of the Guardian's efforts to become more international in its reach.
Didn't spot that. Wowowow.
I miss Magellan.
There's a sort of love/hate relationship with the police in UK, isn't there. As a motorist, worry ... what I am doing wrong ... must be something, as a Guardian reader ... what are they getting wrong now ...... then when something suspicious happens in the neighbourhood, onto them straight away1 Mind, if I was a Wail reader I'd be really worried as a motorist. They'd be bound to be trying to catch me doing something wrong!
Hhe. I meant didn't spot Lotus Domino. I installed that at NATS in 2000 ish.
The most successful nations in history are traders, it's why socialism always fails. The EU is a massive hindrance, people who have never worked in business telling wealth creators what to do.
I genuinely can't understand why any free marketeer thinks the EU is a good idea.
How has the EU hindered BMW, Mercedes Benz, BASF, Siemens, Thyssenkrupp...
They're not countries. They thrived long before the EU was set up because they make things people want to buy.
Of course if we leave the EU the Germans will refuse to sell us cars.
The question is not whether the Germans will refuse to sell us cars: plainly they will continue to do so. The question is under what circumstances and for what cost
Mmmmm.....that has the slight taint of blackmail about it. It is interesting really because this is how I have viewed the European Project for many years. Not a trading group with freedom to cross borders but a political entity to control vast swathes of the European continent under the threat of do as we say or else. It's the politics we see when we lift up the stone we should really be concerned about, not the trading of motor cars which will continue either way.
Comments
I doubt Heathrow would have any problem filling the slots if they leave.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3360095/BA-boss-Willie-Walsh-s-Heathrow-threat-PM-Cameron-doesn-t-stop-dithering-new-runway-ll-business-elsewhere.html
Says if PM does not intervene, BA could move abroad to Dublin or Madrid
Foggy little Dublin with two runways? Ha Ha.
(sorry, I'm trying to get a meme going)
In the morning i will run the program to see if that makes them value to finish top 4 at 2/1
I am only interested in OUR membership, something I've already pointed out, you can make a case all you like for Germany's benefits, I'm English and I live in the UK, I'm not interested in the Germans nor they in us.
You should have realised by now that once you lose your cool and throw insults you've lost it, not for the first time this has happened to you. I want to leave the EU for the reasons I've pointed out, you want to stay because the PM does, now calm down, stop shouting and pull yourself together man.
In reality the post EU settlement would need to be, as you say, a looser arrangement that preserves our significant attachments to Europe, without the detrimental effects of the EU and especially EZ - but that might be politically difficult to secure support for if leave has won.
The best bets top gpalscorer are Vardy at 15/8 and Giroud at 16/1 IMO
Edit not that much bigger 25/1
I think I make him about 50/1
I assume the trading arrangements post-Brexit would be at best the same (legislative inertia leading to wholesale adoption of the status quo) and at worse, worse (TANSTAAFL). I genuinely don't see an improvement here.
[1] Immediately prior to the invasion of France, Germany's biggest trading partner was...France
They have a great product line of cars and trucks now and (I think) have the biggest market share of the big 3.
I have also been told *why* that is (higher level of tax on this side of the pond). The UK post-Brexit will not magically change into 1980's Hong Kong and slough off seventy years of welfarism and become a low-tax Nirvana[1], so those tax levels will stay.
[1] Not that one, the other one.
Also Mercedes has a manufacturing plant in Alabama and BMW does in South Carolina, both of which came with large tax holidays.
Also they are both right to work states. No unions. The VW plant in Tennessee is also in a right to work state, but VW is trying to introduce unions!
That's pretty much the entire English economy - banking and buy to let. It will hurt England hugely when those jobs and businesses relocate. Lots already started the move to Dublin. The rest of the EU is salivating.
The UK wants a competitive advantage. The EU wants a level playing field. After Brexit, the UK will know exactly how hard an uneven playing field feels.
The latest idea they have here is that when you buy a car they roll the annual tax fees into the car loan when you buy so you just pay the loan each month. Makes sense. No annual tax discs from the Post Office (or here stickers on the rear license plate - there is no front plate in Georgia).
I used to have to go to the Post Office, not eat for a week, and put down the wad of cash on the counter. It's much easier here......
One of the more stupid ideas is to have different colored plates on the front and back. Who the hell tracks the front plate?
I miss Magellan.
Mind, if I was a Wail reader I'd be really worried as a motorist. They'd be bound to be trying to catch me doing something wrong!