I've gone from a Labour Party member to an ABC (Anyone but Corbyn) voter in the course of a few months. I can't blame Tories for revelling in the moment, technically as I live in a Labour super-marginal I could be classed as a Tory voter right now. However I think the existentialist talk about the Labour Party is way off the mark. Those clamouring for Corbyn to go need to be careful what they wish for - a replacement by someone like Dan Jarvis would have me switching back and rejoining in a moment. The focus would then move to things like the tax credits and Tory divisions on Europe which are going to get very nasty soon I suspect. 2020 is a long way away and I would have thought it was in the Tories best interests to keep Corbyn in place.
This Tory absolutely doesn't want Corbyn in place.
I think a useless opposition is unhealthy for us too - it drags the whole centreground of politics to the Left, and makes for both lazy ministers and poorly thought through legislation. Also winning by default, rather than through a well-fought battle of ideas, is a very poor basis for the durability of any longstanding changes I hope we will make.
To cap it all, I think he brings our politics and our country into disrepute. So I want him out asap and a proper Labour opposition in.
And to think this Labour pickle all traces back to bottler Brown and the election that wasn't...
I think you're wrong. I reckon if he had gone for it, Labour would have gone down to heavier defeat in 2012 and the LDs would now be in a stronger position.
The PLP is divorced from the membership. The membership is divorced from reality. NickP and his mates knew they were voting for someone who hangs out with apologists for terrorism and they knew that as leader he would surround himself with others who do the same. Thus, NickP and his mates are getting what they wanted: the end of Labour as a credible party of government. Lucky them. It's not everyday we get exactly what we vote for.
Personally whilst voting firmly against Corbyn in the election, I wanted to reserve judgement on his leadership until Christmas on the basis that the increased engagement in politics he inspired was interesting and potentially positive.
I am not sure I am going to make it. :-(
You should opt for a Labour Party advent calendar and each day open a window for your worst Jezza nightmare and then contemplate his stocking being left out on Christmas Eve in Downing Street awaiting John McDonnell coming down the chimney with a huge sack of worthless treasury promissory notes.
All might not be lost for the economy, there's always the possibility of a silver threepence in the Christmas pudding.
Anyone else thinking we've not had mass Labour resignations in the last few days was because they know if Labour lost Oldham West & Royton they'd get the blame?
No. There's always an excuse not to act. That's just the current one.
This can't go on like this for another four and a half years. Surely ?
Tissue Price's quote from Waiting For Godot is the perfect summation of Labour right now:
"I can't go on like this.'" "That's what you think."
This time it'll be different.
Why? The non-Corbynites have no strategy, no prospectus and no coherent alternative. All they have is an appalled sense of impending doom.
Because they won't be able to deal with 52 more months of this.
Labour MPs saw what happened in Scotland. They know no majority is safe now.
I'm beginning to think Corbyn will resign soon, he must realise that he's way out of his depth in so many respects. He must crave the days he could go on protests in relative anonymity.
The stress may force him out. But do they then go for another lefty wild cat (McDonnel) or a sensible hard leftie such as Tricket.
I don't see the age issue with JC - That may be because I'm 61, but he could lead until he was 70 easily.
I also don't get the stress argument. He is accustomed to having his views lampooned, ridiculed and dismissed by press,colleagues and the public outside his comfort blanket. The antagonism towards him will be water off a ducks back.
He knows he is right in his mission to move the Labour Party left. A little temporary personal discomfort is a minor inconvenience to put up with when the project is moving ahead.
Indeed, while the focus is on him and policy there is less scrutiny of the 'in party' amendments that are going on. A very satisfactory outcome.
I think the stress argument is more to do with now having to be accountable for his decisions, his choices and his positions. As a rebel backbencher, he could revel in being different, in standing out. As leader, those decisions have real impact.
We have seen a number of occasions where he has taken a position on an issue only for that position to be challenged and changed within a matter of hours, let alone days.
The stress of that must be very hard to accept. He is not a collegiate politician and trying to pretend that he is has the potential to break him.
Perhaps Jezza is on a fast learning curve. At first, a cretinous fool, then with time, maturing into someone only vaguely hopeless. He'll never change his mind on anything but he may learn to hide his lunatic ideas better. Avoid interviews, only speak when an adult has checked his words, that sort of thing.
That would be the best outcome for the Tories. If he goes, it can only be an improvement. I'd vote Labour if they had a realist like Frank Field in charge, but that will never happen. So I'll just enjoy the comedy routine but always worry that maybe sometime in the future, the electorate might lose all sense and elect him - unlikely as that is.
The PLP is divorced from the membership. The membership is divorced from reality. NickP and his mates knew they were voting for someone who hangs out with apologists for terrorism and they knew that as leader he would surround himself with others who do the same. Thus, NickP and his mates are getting what they wanted: the end of Labour as a credible party of government. Lucky them. It's not everyday we get exactly what we vote for.
Personally whilst voting firmly against Corbyn in the election, I wanted to reserve judgement on his leadership until Christmas on the basis that the increased engagement in politics he inspired was interesting and potentially positive.
I am not sure I am going to make it. :-(
You should opt for a Labour Party advent calendar and each day open a window for your worst Jezza nightmare and then contemplate his stocking being left out on Christmas Eve in Downing Street awaiting John McDonnell coming down the chimney with a huge sack of worthless treasury promissory notes.
All might not be lost for the economy, there's always the possibility of a silver threepence in the Christmas pudding.
If in January you had to write an extreme fiction for the worst possible political outcome, the reality of 2015 would not have come close. Humpf :-(
Yes, that link makes clear that the 79% figure includes weekdays and hence it is misleading to quote it in response to a discussion about service at weekends.
Now, the fact that the figure of 10% pertains to hospitals not patients makes it likely (albeit not certain) to also be misleading - but that's no excuse for quoting a different misleading figure in response.
Anyone else thinking we've not had mass Labour resignations in the last few days was because they know if Labour lost Oldham West & Royton they'd get the blame?
No. There's always an excuse not to act. That's just the current one.
Yep: cowardice and rationalisations and hoping for the best/that something will turn up are far more prevalent than courage and principle and tough thinking.
Anyone else thinking we've not had mass Labour resignations in the last few days was because they know if Labour lost Oldham West & Royton they'd get the blame?
Snip "That's what you think."
This time it'll be different.
Why? The non-Corbynites have no strategy, no prospectus and no coherent alternative. All they have is an appalled sense of impending doom.
Because they won't be able to deal with 52 more months of this.
Labour MPs saw what happened in Scotland. They know no majority is safe now.
I'm beginning to think Corbyn will resign soon, he must realise that he's way out of his depth in so many respects. He must crave the days he could go on protests in relative anonymity.
The stress may force him out. But do they then go for another lefty wild cat (McDonnel) or a sensible hard leftie such as Tricket.
I don't see the age issue with JC - That may be because I'm 61, but he could lead until he was 70 easily.
I also don't get the stress argument. He is accustomed to having his views lampooned, ridiculed and dismissed by press,colleagues and the public outside his comfort blanket. The antagonism towards him will be water off a ducks back.
He knows he is right in his mission to move the Labour Party left. A little temporary personal discomfort is a minor inconvenience to put up with when the project is moving ahead.
Indeed, while the focus is on him and policy there is less scrutiny of the 'in party' amendments that are going on. A very satisfactory outcome.
I think the stress argument is more to do with now having to be accountable for his decisions, his choices and his positions. As a rebel backbencher, he could revel in being different, in standing out. As leader, those decisions have real impact.
We have seen a number of occasions where he has taken a position on an issue only for that position to be challenged and changed within a matter of hours, let alone days.
The stress of that must be very hard to accept. He is not a collegiate politician and trying to pretend that he is has the potential to break him.
I agree he isn't a collegiate politician. He is a politician that is driven by dogma. I expect the most dogmatic leader of any UK party. Ever. OK, Ian Paisley would run him close.
The PLP is divorced from the membership. The membership is divorced from reality. NickP and his mates knew they were voting for someone who hangs out with apologists for terrorism and they knew that as leader he would surround himself with others who do the same. Thus, NickP and his mates are getting what they wanted: the end of Labour as a credible party of government. Lucky them. It's not everyday we get exactly what we vote for.
Personally whilst voting firmly against Corbyn in the election, I wanted to reserve judgement on his leadership until Christmas on the basis that the increased engagement in politics he inspired was interesting and potentially positive.
I am not sure I am going to make it. :-(
You should opt for a Labour Party advent calendar and each day open a window for your worst Jezza nightmare and then contemplate his stocking being left out on Christmas Eve in Downing Street awaiting John McDonnell coming down the chimney with a huge sack of worthless treasury promissory notes.
All might not be lost for the economy, there's always the possibility of a silver threepence in the Christmas pudding.
If in January you had to write an extreme fiction for the worst possible political outcome, the reality of 2015 would not have come close. Humpf :-(
And to think this Labour pickle all traces back to bottler Brown and the election that wasn't...
I think you're wrong. I reckon if he had gone for it, Labour would have gone down to heavier defeat in 2012 and the LDs would now be in a stronger position.
On the other hand there might not have been an IndyRef with a Scottish PM and therefore the SNP wouldn't have cleaned up.
But after nearly six years of him, and perhaps a mini double-dip, England would want his guts for garters.
Could have been something like: Con - 313, Lab - 235, LD - 70, SNP - 8 and others - 24.
I agree he isn't a collegiate politician. He is a politician that is driven by dogma. I expect the most dogmatic leader of any UK party. Ever. OK, Ian Paisley would run him close.
I agree he isn't a collegiate politician. He is a politician that is driven by dogma. I expect the most dogmatic leader of any UK party. Ever. OK, Ian Paisley would run him close.
The PLP is divorced from the membership. The membership is divorced from reality. NickP and his mates knew they were voting for someone who hangs out with apologists for terrorism and they knew that as leader he would surround himself with others who do the same. Thus, NickP and his mates are getting what they wanted: the end of Labour as a credible party of government. Lucky them. It's not everyday we get exactly what we vote for.
Personally whilst voting firmly against Corbyn in the election, I wanted to reserve judgement on his leadership until Christmas on the basis that the increased engagement in politics he inspired was interesting and potentially positive.
I am not sure I am going to make it. :-(
You should opt for a Labour Party advent calendar and each day open a window for your worst Jezza nightmare and then contemplate his stocking being left out on Christmas Eve in Downing Street awaiting John McDonnell coming down the chimney with a huge sack of worthless treasury promissory notes.
All might not be lost for the economy, there's always the possibility of a silver threepence in the Christmas pudding.
If in January you had to write an extreme fiction for the worst possible political outcome, the reality of 2015 would not have come close. Humpf :-(
Dunno, missed the last meeting. I suspect they are still happy with JC, but increasingly angry with everyone else.
I think a lot of moderate Tories want Corbyn out because they know that with him in place politics has the potential to be a lot more erratic than otherwise. UKIP could start off by taking Labour votes but if they become unexpectedly popular they could start taking Tory votes as well because political momentum is often unpredictable. So I think moderate Tories want a mainstream Labour leader so it can be business as usual with politics being a purely Con/Lab battle with UKIP marginalised.
I've gone from a Labour Party member to an ABC (Anyone but Corbyn) voter in the course of a few months. I can't blame Tories for revelling in the moment, technically as I live in a Labour super-marginal I could be classed as a Tory voter right now. However I think the existentialist talk about the Labour Party is way off the mark. Those clamouring for Corbyn to go need to be careful what they wish for - a replacement by someone like Dan Jarvis would have me switching back and rejoining in a moment. The focus would then move to things like the tax credits and Tory divisions on Europe which are going to get very nasty soon I suspect. 2020 is a long way away and I would have thought it was in the Tories best interests to keep Corbyn in place.
This Tory absolutely doesn't want Corbyn in place.
I think a useless opposition is unhealthy for us too - it drags the whole centreground of politics to the Left, and makes for both lazy ministers and poorly thought through legislation. Also winning by default, rather than through a well-fought battle of ideas, is a very poor basis for the durability of any longstanding changes I hope we will make.
To cap it all, I think he brings our politics and our country into disrepute. So I want him out asap and a proper Labour opposition in.
I'm quite happy for Corbyn to remain for another six months. He's unelectable and Labour is at least 4yrs from power.
As for Kippers, can't see much prospect of Tories going Kipper if they haven't done so already. Labour is easy pickings for UKIP right now. Let them have some fun.
I think a lot of moderate Tories want Corbyn out because they know that with him in place politics is a lot more erratic. UKIP could start off by taking Labour votes but if they become unexpectedly popular they could start taking Tory votes as well because political momentum is often unpredictable. So I think moderate Tories want a mainstream Labour leader so it can be business as usual with politics being a purely Con/Lab battle with UKIP marginalised.
I've gone from a Labour Party member to an ABC (Anyone but Corbyn) voter in the course of a few months. I can't blame Tories for revelling in the moment, technically as I live in a Labour super-marginal I could be classed as a Tory voter right now. However I think the existentialist talk about the Labour Party is way off the mark. Those clamouring for Corbyn to go need to be careful what they wish for - a replacement by someone like Dan Jarvis would have me switching back and rejoining in a moment. The focus would then move to things like the tax credits and Tory divisions on Europe which are going to get very nasty soon I suspect. 2020 is a long way away and I would have thought it was in the Tories best interests to keep Corbyn in place.
This Tory absolutely doesn't want Corbyn in place.
I think a useless opposition is unhealthy for us too - it drags the whole centreground of politics to the Left, and makes for both lazy ministers and poorly thought through legislation. Also winning by default, rather than through a well-fought battle of ideas, is a very poor basis for the durability of any longstanding changes I hope we will make.
To cap it all, I think he brings our politics and our country into disrepute. So I want him out asap and a proper Labour opposition in.
I'd echo the thought that we need a good centre-left party in this country. Ideally one that treats the NHS as something other than a sacred cow (we have one of the worst health services in the OECD).
I think Corbyn is in this for the long haul. He likely doesn't read the Murdoch press (by his definition, that'd be pretty much all the MSM), doesn't talk to anyone who disagrees with his views, doesn't engage in debate. It is quite possible that he's sitting tranquilly in the eye of the storm - it's only us anoraks who marvel at his equanimity.
He has the membership on his side. That's really all he needs. Labour have no tradition of regime change. Given a choice between grubby compromise for power's sake (which is how the Blair/Brown administration is being retconned) and principled purity, there are (apparently) many on the left who are choosing the latter.
"I would blame the lefty PC brigade for this. Who would you credit for it Rog?"
Depends what you mean by PC. I'm all for outlawing ugly stereotyping but not allowing all and sundry to claim victimhood.
A good example was when Livingstone was being doorstepped at a party by a journalist from the Mail who Livingstone accused of behaving 'like a concentration camp guard'. When this journalist remembered he was half Jewish he became HUGELY offended. (Had he been a German it might have made sense)
The PLP is divorced from the membership. The membership is divorced from reality. NickP and his mates knew they were voting for someone who hangs out with apologists for terrorism and they knew that as leader he would surround himself with others who do the same. Thus, NickP and his mates are getting what they wanted: the end of Labour as a credible party of government. Lucky them. It's not everyday we get exactly what we vote for.
Personally whilst voting firmly against Corbyn in the election, I wanted to reserve judgement on his leadership until Christmas on the basis that the increased engagement in politics he inspired was interesting and potentially positive.
I am not sure I am going to make it. :-(
You should opt for a Labour Party advent calendar and each day open a window for your worst Jezza nightmare and then contemplate his stocking being left out on Christmas Eve in Downing Street awaiting John McDonnell coming down the chimney with a huge sack of worthless treasury promissory notes.
All might not be lost for the economy, there's always the possibility of a silver threepence in the Christmas pudding.
If in January you had to write an extreme fiction for the worst possible political outcome, the reality of 2015 would not have come close. Humpf :-(
Yes indeed .... the heady days of January 2015 when PB Labourites had Ed on his way to Downing Street, Nick Palmer back in parliament and EICIPM and ELBOW rampant in their delirium.
There's been an argument on here that tories in Oldham will vote Labour to keep Corbyn in place, I don't think the electorate is as sophisticated as that. I'd say tories will abstain and enjoy the fight.
ISIS seem to be very determined to make as many enemies as possible. Murdering the Chinese hostage is the latest example. That probably removes the last obstacle to getting a strong UN resolution.
I've gone from a Labour Party member to an ABC (Anyone but Corbyn) voter in the course of a few months. I can't blame Tories for revelling in the moment, technically as I live in a Labour super-marginal I could be classed as a Tory voter right now. However I think the existentialist talk about the Labour Party is way off the mark. Those clamouring for Corbyn to go need to be careful what they wish for - a replacement by someone like Dan Jarvis would have me switching back and rejoining in a moment. The focus would then move to things like the tax credits and Tory divisions on Europe which are going to get very nasty soon I suspect. 2020 is a long way away and I would have thought it was in the Tories best interests to keep Corbyn in place.
The Tories do not deserve the free-ride that Corbyn in charge of Labour gives them. Under normal circumstances this would be a government heading for seriously stormy waters. As it is, though, the only serious thinking any minister has to do about policy is the effects it will have on the race to replace Cameron. That is bad for the Tories, but it is also extremely bad for the country.
"He urged “sensible people” to join Labour to help steer the party in a more “credible” direction. "
Sensible people seem to be ripping up their membership cards though.
As Mr Palmer might say tic toc
he urged Today programme listeners to join. I wonder how much it would be worth to a company with the right profile to have a "The Today Programme is brought to you today by XXXX" advertising campaign.
@flightpath01 wrt my left wing friends - I think George has been more redistributative since he has been CotE than the past five Lab governments...
There's been an argument on here that tories in Oldham will vote Labour to keep Corbyn in place, I don't think the electorate is as sophisticated as that. I'd say tories will abstain and enjoy the fight.
That was me. I'd now vote UKIP if I lived in Oldham.
The country doesn't need Corbyn, Dave is at his best when he's under pressure.
When was the last time that a strike had such firm backing?
Makes you wonder about the judgement of 76% of junior Drs.
Do they really want patients to suffer at weekends? Are they really that greedy? Do they care if patients suffer? Are they a fifth column striving to destroy the NHS. Edit I'm talking perceptions here rather than facts.
It could end badly for all involved.
In answer to the question either when Lemmings were balloted or fear and intimidation were used. Or may be in North Korea?
The PLP is divorced from the membership. The membership is divorced from reality. NickP and his mates knew they were voting for someone who hangs out with apologists for terrorism and they knew that as leader he would surround himself with others who do the same. Thus, NickP and his mates are getting what they wanted: the end of Labour as a credible party of government. Lucky them. It's not everyday we get exactly what we vote for.
Personally whilst voting firmly against Corbyn in the election, I wanted to reserve judgement on his leadership until Christmas on the basis that the increased engagement in politics he inspired was interesting and potentially positive.
I am not sure I am going to make it. :-(
I admire your fortitude. I am in the OllyT camp. Though in my case that probably means not voting at all. I tried to get enthusiastic about the LDs, but just can't. I hope that Labour comes to its senses, but with each day that passes it becomes more likely it won't and that in the end it will have to be replaced. That would probably be no bad thing in the long term, but with FPTP it would mean Tory governments until at least 2030 or so, as well as the break-up of the UK.
When was the last time that a strike had such firm backing?"
An unprecedented result and for an extremely fair cause. This is one of the strike ballots Labour should be right behind but unfortunately owing to ridiculous internal squabbles they can't. Just the latest in a string of wasted open goals.
"I would blame the lefty PC brigade for this. Who would you credit for it Rog?"
Depends what you mean by PC. I'm all for outlawing ugly stereotyping but not allowing all and sundry to claim victimhood.
A good example was when Livingstone was being doorstepped at a party by a journalist from the Mail who Livingstone accused of behaving 'like a concentration camp guard'. When this journalist remembered he was half Jewish he became HUGELY offended. (Had he been a German it might have made sense)
Roger don't be such a cheeky monkey.
The outrage was because Ken (dear friend of al qaradawi) made a comparison between being doorstepped - oh the horror - by a journalist in a free country with a free press, and a concentration camp, which was the tool of a regime which sought to wipe out (amongst others) the Jewish race, thus belittling the experience of said Jewish race of which the journalist was a member.
Rog I am quite busy today so either a) stop trolling because you are not brilliant at it; or b) ask someone nearby, most adults will be fine, to explain to you the nuances of the discussions on here.
I echo some commentators that we need a credible opposition for the good of all parties and our democracy. Against very indifferent opposition, Jeremy Cornyn was elected by a wide cross section of the party. Why was this? It was because he represented the anti-establishment feeling, which lumped all politicians as sleazy, corrupt and the Same!
Of course Corbyn is a professional politician himself. His views were well known and people certainly got what they voted for. I had no idea just how bad it would get so quickly and the sight of Labour teetering on the edge of civil war and real collapse is really letting down their supporters and the country as a whole.
When was the last time that a strike had such firm backing?
Makes you wonder about the judgement of 76% of junior Drs.
Do they really want patients to suffer at weekends? Are they really that greedy? Do they care if patients suffer? Are they a fifth column striving to destroy the NHS. Edit I'm talking perceptions here rather than facts.
It could end badly for all involved.
In answer to the question either when Lemmings were balloted or fear and intimidation were used. Or may be in North Korea?
The idea that a Saturday is anything other than a normal working day in the 21st century is utterly preposterous and indefensible. In any other industry Saturday's have long been normal working days and the idea that doctors shouldn't treat the weekend as a normal day is absurd.
Doctors may be getting sympathy on a simple "I like doctors/dislike politicians" basis but there is nothing wrong whatsoever with what Hunt is proposing. The notion that the weekend is "out of hours" needs to be eliminated.
The PLP is divorced from the membership. The membership is divorced from reality. NickP and his mates knew they were voting for someone who hangs out with apologists for terrorism and they knew that as leader he would surround himself with others who do the same. Thus, NickP and his mates are getting what they wanted: the end of Labour as a credible party of government. Lucky them. It's not everyday we get exactly what we vote for.
Personally whilst voting firmly against Corbyn in the election, I wanted to reserve judgement on his leadership until Christmas on the basis that the increased engagement in politics he inspired was interesting and potentially positive.
I am not sure I am going to make it. :-(
You should opt for a Labour Party advent calendar and each day open a window for your worst Jezza nightmare and then contemplate his stocking being left out on Christmas Eve in Downing Street awaiting John McDonnell coming down the chimney with a huge sack of worthless treasury promissory notes.
All might not be lost for the economy, there's always the possibility of a silver threepence in the Christmas pudding.
If in January you had to write an extreme fiction for the worst possible political outcome, the reality of 2015 would not have come close. Humpf :-(
Yes indeed .... the heady days of January 2015 when PB Labourites had Ed on his way to Downing Street, Nick Palmer back in parliament and EICIPM and ELBOW rampant in their delirium.
The six policy reviews set up by the NEC will report early next year. (One of these is the defence review which includes the question of Trident replacement.) .
Corbyn will try to influence the conclusions of these reviews by his powers of persuasion but I think it is unlikely that he will succeed, particularly regarding Trident.
If Corbyn is unable to support all the policy conclusions then I think he will resign as leader and not stand again. Otherwise he will be in an impossible position. As a man of honour (even if you disagree with him) I don't think he will pull the usual politician trick of changing his position to retain power.
If he resigns mid 2016, then none of the previous three contenders will stand again. The contenders will be Benn, Nandy, possibly Watson. Whoever wins will heal the party and inherit clear policy positions with four years to go before the next General Election. Meanwhile the Tories will be struggling to retain unity over Europe. Game on.
ISIS seem to be very determined to make as many enemies as possible. Murdering the Chinese hostage is the latest example. That probably removes the last obstacle to getting a strong UN resolution.
I thought the Russians were the last obstacle? As they'd rather do it themselves (so they can assist Assad) rather than have UN auspices over the situation?
I echo some commentators that we need a credible opposition for the good of all parties and our democracy. Against very indifferent opposition, Jeremy Cornyn was elected by a wide cross section of the party. Why was this? It was because he represented the anti-establishment feeling, which lumped all politicians as sleazy, corrupt and the Same!
Of course Corbyn is a professional politician himself. His views were well known and people certainly got what they voted for. I had no idea just how bad it would get so quickly and the sight of Labour teetering on the edge of civil war and real collapse is really letting down their supporters and the country as a whole.
When was the last time that a strike had such firm backing?"
An unprecedented result and for an extremely fair cause. This is one of the strike ballots Labour should be right behind but unfortunately owing to ridiculous internal squabbles they can't. Just the latest in a string of wasted open goals.
Just because the Doctors are united in their cause it doesn't mean it is right and they risk losing public support as patients operations are cancelled and patients die as a result of the strike. Also by striking in December at the time of high need will be counter productive. They need to get round the table and if necessary use Acas to resolve the dispute.
I echo some commentators that we need a credible opposition for the good of all parties and our democracy. Against very indifferent opposition, Jeremy Cornyn was elected by a wide cross section of the party. Why was this? It was because he represented the anti-establishment feeling, which lumped all politicians as sleazy, corrupt and the Same!
Of course Corbyn is a professional politician himself. His views were well known and people certainly got what they voted for. I had no idea just how bad it would get so quickly and the sight of Labour teetering on the edge of civil war and real collapse is really letting down their supporters and the country as a whole.
Although to be completely open minded and looking at all the evidence (to paraphrase the co chair of the Labour Defence review) wasn't one of the achievements of Ed to hold the party together and prevent blood letting?
There was considerable praise to him for that, although the achievement came at an electoral cost (via policy compromise and seat loss).
This is the blood letting that was expected in 2010 and has festered for an additional five years during Eds tenure of the party. Possibly it is now more intense than it would have been in 2010.
The six policy reviews set up by the NEC will report early next year. (One of these is the defence review which includes the question of Trident replacement.) .
Corbyn will try to influence the conclusions of these reviews by his powers of persuasion but I think it is unlikely that he will succeed, particularly regarding Trident.
If Corbyn is unable to support all the policy conclusions then I think he will resign as leader and not stand again. Otherwise he will be in an impossible position. As a man of honour (even if you disagree with him) I don't think he will pull the usual politician trick of changing his position to retain power.
If he resigns mid 2016, then none of the previous three contenders will stand again. The contenders will be Benn, Nandy, possibly Watson. Whoever wins will heal the party and inherit clear policy positions with four years to go before the next General Election. Meanwhile the Tories will be struggling to retain unity over Europe. Game on.
Professor Pangloss has nothing on you. It's a scenario, but not one I'd describe as "most likely".
The six policy reviews set up by the NEC will report early next year. (One of these is the defence review which includes the question of Trident replacement.) .
Corbyn will try to influence the conclusions of these reviews by his powers of persuasion but I think it is unlikely that he will succeed, particularly regarding Trident.
If Corbyn is unable to support all the policy conclusions then I think he will resign as leader and not stand again. Otherwise he will be in an impossible position. As a man of honour (even if you disagree with him) I don't think he will pull the usual politician trick of changing his position to retain power.
If he resigns mid 2016, then none of the previous three contenders will stand again. The contenders will be Benn, Nandy, possibly Watson. Whoever wins will heal the party and inherit clear policy positions with four years to go before the next General Election. Meanwhile the Tories will be struggling to retain unity over Europe. Game on.
Wow that is an optimistic (from your perspective) prediction. A perfect storm of optimism.
I've gone from a Labour Party member to an ABC (Anyone but Corbyn) voter in the course of a few months. I can't blame Tories for revelling in the moment, technically as I live in a Labour super-marginal I could be classed as a Tory voter right now. However I think the existentialist talk about the Labour Party is way off the mark. Those clamouring for Corbyn to go need to be careful what they wish for - a replacement by someone like Dan Jarvis would have me switching back and rejoining in a moment. The focus would then move to things like the tax credits and Tory divisions on Europe which are going to get very nasty soon I suspect. 2020 is a long way away and I would have thought it was in the Tories best interests to keep Corbyn in place.
I agree with the final point and it's not clear to me why a number of conservatives here have an apparant enthusasism for Labour to be effective. Perhaps we could reverse the problem and consider Duncan-Smith as leader of the Conservatives. What were Labour supporters saying?
ISIS seem to be very determined to make as many enemies as possible. Murdering the Chinese hostage is the latest example. That probably removes the last obstacle to getting a strong UN resolution.
Is there anyone they wouldn't attack or kill?
I agree. It should sail through the UN Security Council now. There's never been a clearer case for global action.
Yes indeed .... the heady days of January 2015 when PB Labourites had Ed on his way to Downing Street, Nick Palmer back in parliament and EICIPM and ELBOW rampant in their delirium.
Afaicr quite a few PB Tories also, right up to 7th May. There were even a couple of those pitiful 'if EICIPM I shall be emigrating' type of statements.
Not wishing to enter the Ken Livingston territory of insults for all, but the lackluster campaign run by Yvette would make me want to do some research into the possible effects of ME, the chances of it having lasting effects or reoccurring, especially under stress. There are some conditions that make it hard to perform the top role.
ISIS seem to be very determined to make as many enemies as possible. Murdering the Chinese hostage is the latest example. That probably removes the last obstacle to getting a strong UN resolution.
I thought the Russians were the last obstacle? As they'd rather do it themselves (so they can assist Assad) rather than have UN auspices over the situation?
They think a deal can be made where the West semi-ignores the rebels and leaves As'ad alone, for now, whilst everyone focuses on ISIS.
Russia have just as much of an interest in destroying ISIS as we do, can't do it alone and hope it will repair relations and bring them in from the cold too, so I think they'll go for it.
There's been an argument on here that tories in Oldham will vote Labour to keep Corbyn in place, I don't think the electorate is as sophisticated as that. I'd say tories will abstain and enjoy the fight.
That was me. I'd now vote UKIP if I lived in Oldham.
The country doesn't need Corbyn, Dave is at his best when he's under pressure.
I've gone from a Labour Party member to an ABC (Anyone but Corbyn) voter in the course of a few months. I can't blame Tories for revelling in the moment, technically as I live in a Labour super-marginal I could be classed as a Tory voter right now. However I think the existentialist talk about the Labour Party is way off the mark. Those clamouring for Corbyn to go need to be careful what they wish for - a replacement by someone like Dan Jarvis would have me switching back and rejoining in a moment. The focus would then move to things like the tax credits and Tory divisions on Europe which are going to get very nasty soon I suspect. 2020 is a long way away and I would have thought it was in the Tories best interests to keep Corbyn in place.
I agree with the final point and it's not clear to me why a number of conservatives here have an apparant enthusasism for Labour to be effective. Perhaps we could reverse the problem and consider Duncan-Smith as leader of the Conservatives. What were Labour supporters saying?
It doesn't matter what Labour supporters were saying back in IDS's day. The point is that Labour are eating themselves up internally, the Libs and UKIP don't have significant traction (although UKIP may win in Oldham...) There is not a significant opposition and all Governments need one. Blair could do whatever he liked from 1997 - 2005 and that wasn't good either!
When was the last time that a strike had such firm backing?"
An unprecedented result and for an extremely fair cause. This is one of the strike ballots Labour should be right behind but unfortunately owing to ridiculous internal squabbles they can't. Just the latest in a string of wasted open goals.
Just because the Doctors are united in their cause it doesn't mean it is right and they risk losing public support as patients operations are cancelled and patients die as a result of the strike. Also by striking in December at the time of high need will be counter productive. They need to get round the table and if necessary use Acas to resolve the dispute.
No prizes for guessing who the government will blame if there's another 'winter NHS crisis' this year.
"Just because the Doctors are united in their cause it doesn't mean it is right and they risk losing public support as patients operations are cancelled and patients die as a result of the strike."
Unless we don't trust the wisdom of 98% of junior doctors (which I hope for all our sakes we do) then it's obvious that their case is watertight.
I've gone from a Labour Party member to an ABC (Anyone but Corbyn) voter in the course of a few months. I can't blame Tories for revelling in the moment, technically as I live in a Labour super-marginal I could be classed as a Tory voter right now. However I think the existentialist talk about the Labour Party is way off the mark. Those clamouring for Corbyn to go need to be careful what they wish for - a replacement by someone like Dan Jarvis would have me switching back and rejoining in a moment. The focus would then move to things like the tax credits and Tory divisions on Europe which are going to get very nasty soon I suspect. 2020 is a long way away and I would have thought it was in the Tories best interests to keep Corbyn in place.
I agree with the final point and it's not clear to me why a number of conservatives here have an apparant enthusasism for Labour to be effective. Perhaps we could reverse the problem and consider Duncan-Smith as leader of the Conservatives. What were Labour supporters saying?
Well, it's fairly simple. I'm a patriot before I'm a 'conservative'. I love my country and want it to have good governance. Good governments require good opposition. I'm not so mindlessly tribal that I don't admire some Labour politicians (not so much in recent years) and think that Labour have had some good ideas.
The reason that I'm particularly exercised at the moment is simple. We are heading for another downturn and the country still hasn't recovered. Nor has Europe. Foreign affairs are (duh!) volatile and uncertain.
We need our politicians to collectively be firing on all cylinders. Even the most Pollyanna-ish Labour supporter will, I hope, agree that Labour are not in a good place. Add the rancid Lib Dem shenanigans in the Lords and it's enough to make you weep.
I've gone from a Labour Party member to an ABC (Anyone but Corbyn) voter in the course of a few months. I can't blame Tories for revelling in the moment, technically as I live in a Labour super-marginal I could be classed as a Tory voter right now. However I think the existentialist talk about the Labour Party is way off the mark. Those clamouring for Corbyn to go need to be careful what they wish for - a replacement by someone like Dan Jarvis would have me switching back and rejoining in a moment. The focus would then move to things like the tax credits and Tory divisions on Europe which are going to get very nasty soon I suspect. 2020 is a long way away and I would have thought it was in the Tories best interests to keep Corbyn in place.
I agree with the final point and it's not clear to me why a number of conservatives here have an apparant enthusasism for Labour to be effective. Perhaps we could reverse the problem and consider Duncan-Smith as leader of the Conservatives. What were Labour supporters saying?
CR put the point well, below.
Competition is good. It keeps the best on their toes and prevents a slump into complacency and indulgence, both of which are in the country's interests and, considering it's a Tory government at the moment, the Tories' longer-term interests as at some point there will again be a viable opposition and it will help the Cons if there aren't failures stemming from this period for Labour / UKIP / LDs to throw at them.
When was the last time that a strike had such firm backing?"
An unprecedented result and for an extremely fair cause. This is one of the strike ballots Labour should be right behind but unfortunately owing to ridiculous internal squabbles they can't. Just the latest in a string of wasted open goals.
Just because the Doctors are united in their cause it doesn't mean it is right and they risk losing public support as patients operations are cancelled and patients die as a result of the strike. Also by striking in December at the time of high need will be counter productive. They need to get round the table and if necessary use Acas to resolve the dispute.
No prizes for guessing who the government will blame if there's another 'winter NHS crisis' this year.
The fairly recent top rating of the NHS was based ENTIRELY on governments' efforts previous to Cameron's. This was pointed out in Private Eye a while back.
German intelligence received information that a terror cell was planning to set off multiple bombs inside the stadium during the game in Hannover, according to Bild newspaper.
The explosives were to be smuggled inside the stadium in ambulances. The cell's leader planned to film the attack as it took place from inside the stadium.
The group also planned to detonate another bomb in the city centre, and to carry out a further attack at the main train station after midnight, when fans would have been on their way home.
Bild published what it claimed were the contents of an intelligence briefing passed to Thomas de Maiziere, the interior minister, just hours before the match.
I've gone from a Labour Party member to an ABC (Anyone but Corbyn) voter in the course of a few months. I can't blame Tories for revelling in the moment, technically as I live in a Labour super-marginal I could be classed as a Tory voter right now. However I think the existentialist talk about the Labour Party is way off the mark. Those clamouring for Corbyn to go need to be careful what they wish for - a replacement by someone like Dan Jarvis would have me switching back and rejoining in a moment. The focus would then move to things like the tax credits and Tory divisions on Europe which are going to get very nasty soon I suspect. 2020 is a long way away and I would have thought it was in the Tories best interests to keep Corbyn in place.
I agree with the final point and it's not clear to me why a number of conservatives here have an apparant enthusasism for Labour to be effective. Perhaps we could reverse the problem and consider Duncan-Smith as leader of the Conservatives. What were Labour supporters saying?
Well, it's fairly simple. I'm a patriot before I'm a 'conservative'. I love my country and want it to have good governance. Good governments require good opposition. I'm not so mindlessly tribal that I don't admire some Labour politicians (not so much in recent years) and think that Labour have had some good ideas.
The reason that I'm particularly exercised at the moment is simple. We are heading for another downturn and the country still hasn't recovered. Nor has Europe. Foreign affairs are (duh!) volatile and uncertain.
We need our politicians to collectively be firing on all cylinders. Even the most Pollyanna-ish Labour supporter will, I hope, agree that Labour are not in a good place. Add the rancid Lib Dem shenanigans in the Lords and it's enough to make you weep.
When was the last time that a strike had such firm backing?
Makes you wonder about the judgement of 76% of junior Drs.
Do they really want patients to suffer at weekends? Are they really that greedy? Do they care if patients suffer? Are they a fifth column striving to destroy the NHS. Edit I'm talking perceptions here rather than facts.
It could end badly for all involved.
In answer to the question either when Lemmings were balloted or fear and intimidation were used. Or may be in North Korea?
If you quit the Uk do you still have to pay back your student loans ?
Not wishing to enter the Ken Livingston territory of insults for all, but the lackluster campaign run by Yvette would make me want to do some research into the possible effects of ME, the chances of it having lasting effects or reoccurring, especially under stress. There are some conditions that make it hard to perform the top role.
Off topic, that said, if 99% of doctors have voted for industrial action on a 76% turnout then it's hard not to conclude Hunt has got something wrong with his communication and engagement strategy. Unless one side is utterly right and the other utterly wrong and neither are paying the slightest bit of attention to each other, which is almost never true.
I could excuse away a 75% vote for striking on a 50% turnout. But not 99% on a 76% turnout.
"Just because the Doctors are united in their cause it doesn't mean it is right and they risk losing public support as patients operations are cancelled and patients die as a result of the strike."
Unless we don't trust the wisdom of 98% of junior doctors (which I hope for all our sakes we do) then it's obvious that their case is watertight.
Yes the NHS's sole purpose is to train up doctors so they can go abroad and earn big bucks.
ISIS seem to be very determined to make as many enemies as possible. Murdering the Chinese hostage is the latest example. That probably removes the last obstacle to getting a strong UN resolution.
I thought the Russians were the last obstacle? As they'd rather do it themselves (so they can assist Assad) rather than have UN auspices over the situation?
They think a deal can be made where the West semi-ignores the rebels and leaves As'ad alone, for now, whilst everyone focuses on ISIS.
Russia have just as much of an interest in destroying ISIS as we do, can't do it alone and hope it will repair relations and bring them in from the cold too, so I think they'll go for it.
If we are trying to destroy ISIS we don't seem to have a plan for how to do it. My immediate response to the news that the French had dropped 20 bombs on Raqqa was that it was a couple of orders of magnitude too few. Time to roll out the B52s. We should be picking off their associates in Libya and the Sinai. The Sousse gunman was apparently trained in a Libyan ISIS camp; it should have ceased to exist the next day.
There's been an argument on here that tories in Oldham will vote Labour to keep Corbyn in place, I don't think the electorate is as sophisticated as that. I'd say tories will abstain and enjoy the fight.
That was me. I'd now vote UKIP if I lived in Oldham.
The country doesn't need Corbyn, Dave is at his best when he's under pressure.
Corbyn will never put Dave under pressure.
I take your point but Cameron is only good at winning elections, he's a very ordinary PM as the next few years will prove.
Yes indeed .... the heady days of January 2015 when PB Labourites had Ed on his way to Downing Street, Nick Palmer back in parliament and EICIPM and ELBOW rampant in their delirium.
There were even a couple of those pitiful 'if EICIPM I shall be emigrating' type of statements.
But not as many Nats who were going to emigrate if the 'losers' voted to stay in the UK......
There's been an argument on here that tories in Oldham will vote Labour to keep Corbyn in place, I don't think the electorate is as sophisticated as that. I'd say tories will abstain and enjoy the fight.
That was me. I'd now vote UKIP if I lived in Oldham.
The country doesn't need Corbyn, Dave is at his best when he's under pressure.
Corbyn will never put Dave under pressure.
I take your point but Cameron is only good at winning elections, he's a very ordinary PM as the next few years will prove.
Who, out of the current crop, do you think would do better?
When was the last time that a strike had such firm backing?"
An unprecedented result and for an extremely fair cause. This is one of the strike ballots Labour should be right behind but unfortunately owing to ridiculous internal squabbles they can't. Just the latest in a string of wasted open goals.
Just because the Doctors are united in their cause it doesn't mean it is right and they risk losing public support as patients operations are cancelled and patients die as a result of the strike. Also by striking in December at the time of high need will be counter productive. They need to get round the table and if necessary use Acas to resolve the dispute.
No prizes for guessing who the government will blame if there's another 'winter NHS crisis' this year.
The fairly recent top rating of the NHS was based ENTIRELY on governments' efforts previous to Cameron's. This was pointed out in Private Eye a while back.
Which top rating is this?
The OECD has just maligned the NHS as one of the worst performing healthcare services in the developed world, while the British Social Attitudes Study which gave a near record NHS satisfaction rating is an annual perception study among the general population, and so based on current perception.
ISIS seem to be very determined to make as many enemies as possible. Murdering the Chinese hostage is the latest example. That probably removes the last obstacle to getting a strong UN resolution.
Is there anyone they wouldn't attack or kill?
Almost no-one. The focus on Islam or even Islamism is misleading. ISIS is an apocalyptic cult (albeit an Islamist one). They want to build a caliphate and bring about an apocalypse. They see their enemies as anyone who is not a muslim, anyone who is the wrong sort of muslim (mainly Shia, like the Iranians) and anyone who does not practise Islam as they interpret a 7th Century caliphate, so things like standing for election or even voting are beyond the pale. Killing Russian or Chinese people might invite retaliation but this is all grist to their apocalyptic mill.
The answer is ... well, I have no idea, and nor do our politicians so far as I can tell.
There's been an argument on here that tories in Oldham will vote Labour to keep Corbyn in place, I don't think the electorate is as sophisticated as that. I'd say tories will abstain and enjoy the fight.
That was me. I'd now vote UKIP if I lived in Oldham.
The country doesn't need Corbyn, Dave is at his best when he's under pressure.
Corbyn will never put Dave under pressure.
I take your point but Cameron is only good at winning elections, he's a very ordinary PM as the next few years will prove.
Who, out of the current crop, do you think would do better?
There's been an argument on here that tories in Oldham will vote Labour to keep Corbyn in place, I don't think the electorate is as sophisticated as that. I'd say tories will abstain and enjoy the fight.
That was me. I'd now vote UKIP if I lived in Oldham.
The country doesn't need Corbyn, Dave is at his best when he's under pressure.
Corbyn will never put Dave under pressure.
I take your point but Cameron is only good at winning elections, he's a very ordinary PM as the next few years will prove.
ordinary is better than Brown and Miliband and ordinary ranks miles ahead of Corbyn.
Off topic, that said, if 99% of doctors have voted for industrial action on a 76% turnout then it's hard not to conclude Hunt has got something wrong with his communication and engagement strategy. Unless one side is utterly right and the other utterly wrong and neither are paying the slightest bit of attention to each other, which is almost never true.
I could excuse away a 75% vote for striking on a 50% turnout. But not 99% on a 76% turnout.
They didn't ballot a quarter of the membership. A third of those they did ballot didn't respond.
Basically half the BMA membership has voted to strike.
The issue here for the government is that every year £1bn in extra NHS spending just goes straight into enhanced pay packets of NHS employees through the existing automatic pay escalator.
The PLP is divorced from the membership. The membership is divorced from reality. NickP and his mates knew they were voting for someone who hangs out with apologists for terrorism and they knew that as leader he would surround himself with others who do the same. Thus, NickP and his mates are getting what they wanted: the end of Labour as a credible party of government. Lucky them. It's not everyday we get exactly what we vote for.
Personally whilst voting firmly against Corbyn in the election, I wanted to reserve judgement on his leadership until Christmas on the basis that the increased engagement in politics he inspired was interesting and potentially positive.
I am not sure I am going to make it. :-(
You should opt for a Labour Party advent calendar and each day open a window for your worst Jezza nightmare and then contemplate his stocking being left out on Christmas Eve in Downing Street awaiting John McDonnell coming down the chimney with a huge sack of worthless treasury promissory notes.
All might not be lost for the economy, there's always the possibility of a silver threepence in the Christmas pudding.
If in January you had to write an extreme fiction for the worst possible political outcome, the reality of 2015 would not have come close. Humpf :-(
There's been an argument on here that tories in Oldham will vote Labour to keep Corbyn in place, I don't think the electorate is as sophisticated as that. I'd say tories will abstain and enjoy the fight.
That was me. I'd now vote UKIP if I lived in Oldham.
The country doesn't need Corbyn, Dave is at his best when he's under pressure.
Corbyn will never put Dave under pressure.
I take your point but Cameron is only good at winning elections, he's a very ordinary PM as the next few years will prove.
ordinary is better than Brown and Miliband and ordinary ranks miles ahead of Corbyn.
Milliband was never PM and comparing him with Brown sets the bar very low. Of course I realise that for tories what he does as PM is irrelevant, he is PM, nothing else matters.
There's been an argument on here that tories in Oldham will vote Labour to keep Corbyn in place, I don't think the electorate is as sophisticated as that. I'd say tories will abstain and enjoy the fight.
That was me. I'd now vote UKIP if I lived in Oldham.
The country doesn't need Corbyn, Dave is at his best when he's under pressure.
Corbyn will never put Dave under pressure.
I take your point but Cameron is only good at winning elections, he's a very ordinary PM as the next few years will prove.
ordinary is better than Brown and Miliband and ordinary ranks miles ahead of Corbyn.
Milliband was never PM and comparing him with Brown sets the bar very low. Of course I realise that for tories what he does as PM is irrelevant, he is PM, nothing else matters.
Poor old Farage can't even get himself elected as an MP. Where does he sit on the spectrum of failure?
When was the last time that a strike had such firm backing?
Makes you wonder about the judgement of 76% of junior Drs.
Do they really want patients to suffer at weekends? Are they really that greedy? Do they care if patients suffer? Are they a fifth column striving to destroy the NHS. Edit I'm talking perceptions here rather than facts.
It could end badly for all involved.
In answer to the question either when Lemmings were balloted or fear and intimidation were used. Or may be in North Korea?
If you quit the Uk do you still have to pay back your student loans ?
.
Theoretically yes, but in practice it's almost impossible to chase debts through courts in a different country from that in which the debt was incurred.
One of the many miscalculations in the loan system - many experts in the field now expect the new loan system to and up costing the taxpayer more, in the long run, than the system it replaced.......
Comments
I think a useless opposition is unhealthy for us too - it drags the whole centreground of politics to the Left, and makes for both lazy ministers and poorly thought through legislation. Also winning by default, rather than through a well-fought battle of ideas, is a very poor basis for the durability of any longstanding changes I hope we will make.
To cap it all, I think he brings our politics and our country into disrepute. So I want him out asap and a proper Labour opposition in.
All might not be lost for the economy, there's always the possibility of a silver threepence in the Christmas pudding.
We have seen a number of occasions where he has taken a position on an issue only for that position to be challenged and changed within a matter of hours, let alone days.
The stress of that must be very hard to accept. He is not a collegiate politician and trying to pretend that he is has the potential to break him.
That would be the best outcome for the Tories. If he goes, it can only be an improvement. I'd vote Labour if they had a realist like Frank Field in charge, but that will never happen. So I'll just enjoy the comedy routine but always worry that maybe sometime in the future, the electorate might lose all sense and elect him - unlikely as that is.
Now, the fact that the figure of 10% pertains to hospitals not patients makes it likely (albeit not certain) to also be misleading - but that's no excuse for quoting a different misleading figure in response.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12004833/David-Blunkett-Ken-Livingstone-should-stand-down-as-co-chair-of-Labours-defence-review.html
"He urged “sensible people” to join Labour to help steer the party in a more “credible” direction. "
Sensible people seem to be ripping up their membership cards though.
As Mr Palmer might say tic toc
I'm noticing a falling off of support from them on Twitter - but that's not much of a yardstick.
But after nearly six years of him, and perhaps a mini double-dip, England would want his guts for garters.
Could have been something like: Con - 313, Lab - 235, LD - 70, SNP - 8 and others - 24.
He seems determined to show them he is really a cretinous fool.
His mistakes get worse as time goes on
ASHFORD Aylesford Green
CARMARTHENSHIRE Kidwelly
GWYNEDD Dewi
GWYNEDD Llanaelhaearn
NORFOLK South Smallburgh
NORFOLK Watton
SURREY Epsom West
My comment is (not Oxfordsimon) Sorry.
I agree he isn't a collegiate politician. He is a politician that is driven by dogma. I expect the most dogmatic leader of any UK party. Ever. OK, Ian Paisley would run him close.
EDIT: Ok, maybe not...
As for Kippers, can't see much prospect of Tories going Kipper if they haven't done so already. Labour is easy pickings for UKIP right now. Let them have some fun.
I'd echo the thought that we need a good centre-left party in this country. Ideally one that treats the NHS as something other than a sacred cow (we have one of the worst health services in the OECD).
I think Corbyn is in this for the long haul. He likely doesn't read the Murdoch press (by his definition, that'd be pretty much all the MSM), doesn't talk to anyone who disagrees with his views, doesn't engage in debate. It is quite possible that he's sitting tranquilly in the eye of the storm - it's only us anoraks who marvel at his equanimity.
He has the membership on his side. That's really all he needs. Labour have no tradition of regime change. Given a choice between grubby compromise for power's sake (which is how the Blair/Brown administration is being retconned) and principled purity, there are (apparently) many on the left who are choosing the latter.
"I would blame the lefty PC brigade for this. Who would you credit for it Rog?"
Depends what you mean by PC. I'm all for outlawing ugly stereotyping but not allowing all and sundry to claim victimhood.
A good example was when Livingstone was being doorstepped at a party by a journalist from the Mail who Livingstone accused of behaving 'like a concentration camp guard'. When this journalist remembered he was half Jewish he became HUGELY offended. (Had he been a German it might have made sense)
Twas an ARSE of a situation.
98% for strike.
When was the last time that a strike had such firm backing?
@flightpath01 wrt my left wing friends - I think George has been more redistributative since he has been CotE than the past five Lab governments...
The country doesn't need Corbyn, Dave is at his best when he's under pressure.
Corbyn will never put Dave under pressure.
Do they really want patients to suffer at weekends? Are they really that greedy? Do they care if patients suffer? Are they a fifth column striving to destroy the NHS. Edit I'm talking perceptions here rather than facts.
It could end badly for all involved.
In answer to the question either when Lemmings were balloted or fear and intimidation were used. Or may be in North Korea?
http://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/2015/nov/19/why-arent-there-more-university-graduates-on-coronation-street
"76% turnout in BMA junior doctors ballot.
98% for strike.
When was the last time that a strike had such firm backing?"
An unprecedented result and for an extremely fair cause. This is one of the strike ballots Labour should be right behind but unfortunately owing to ridiculous internal squabbles they can't. Just the latest in a string of wasted open goals.
The outrage was because Ken (dear friend of al qaradawi) made a comparison between being doorstepped - oh the horror - by a journalist in a free country with a free press, and a concentration camp, which was the tool of a regime which sought to wipe out (amongst others) the Jewish race, thus belittling the experience of said Jewish race of which the journalist was a member.
Rog I am quite busy today so either a) stop trolling because you are not brilliant at it; or b) ask someone nearby, most adults will be fine, to explain to you the nuances of the discussions on here.
Of course Corbyn is a professional politician himself. His views were well known and people certainly got what they voted for. I had no idea just how bad it would get so quickly and the sight of Labour teetering on the edge of civil war and real collapse is really letting down their supporters and the country as a whole.
Doctors may be getting sympathy on a simple "I like doctors/dislike politicians" basis but there is nothing wrong whatsoever with what Hunt is proposing. The notion that the weekend is "out of hours" needs to be eliminated.
Who do you think is going to get the GOP nomination? And who do you think is going to win 2016 US?
The six policy reviews set up by the NEC will report early next year. (One of these is the defence review which includes the question of Trident replacement.) .
Corbyn will try to influence the conclusions of these reviews by his powers of persuasion but I think it is unlikely that he will succeed, particularly regarding Trident.
If Corbyn is unable to support all the policy conclusions then I think he will resign as leader and not stand again. Otherwise he will be in an impossible position. As a man of honour (even if you disagree with him) I don't think he will pull the usual politician trick of changing his position to retain power.
If he resigns mid 2016, then none of the previous three contenders will stand again. The contenders will be Benn, Nandy, possibly Watson. Whoever wins will heal the party and inherit clear policy positions with four years to go before the next General Election. Meanwhile the Tories will be struggling to retain unity over Europe. Game on.
- not singing GSTQ at that Battle of Britain service
- not pressing the button
- Don't Shoot To Kill
- arrest Jihadi John
I don't recall any LotO having so many opportunities to exhibit his lack of interest in protecting our own citizens.
There was considerable praise to him for that, although the achievement came at an electoral cost (via policy compromise and seat loss).
This is the blood letting that was expected in 2010 and has festered for an additional five years during Eds tenure of the party. Possibly it is now more intense than it would have been in 2010.
I agree. It should sail through the UN Security Council now. There's never been a clearer case for global action.
Russia have just as much of an interest in destroying ISIS as we do, can't do it alone and hope it will repair relations and bring them in from the cold too, so I think they'll go for it.
"Just because the Doctors are united in their cause it doesn't mean it is right and they risk losing public support as patients operations are cancelled and patients die as a result of the strike."
Unless we don't trust the wisdom of 98% of junior doctors (which I hope for all our sakes we do) then it's obvious that their case is watertight.
Added: Maybe they could save money by cutting homeopathic treatment?
The reason that I'm particularly exercised at the moment is simple. We are heading for another downturn and the country still hasn't recovered. Nor has Europe. Foreign affairs are (duh!) volatile and uncertain.
We need our politicians to collectively be firing on all cylinders. Even the most Pollyanna-ish Labour supporter will, I hope, agree that Labour are not in a good place. Add the rancid Lib Dem shenanigans in the Lords and it's enough to make you weep.
Competition is good. It keeps the best on their toes and prevents a slump into complacency and indulgence, both of which are in the country's interests and, considering it's a Tory government at the moment, the Tories' longer-term interests as at some point there will again be a viable opposition and it will help the Cons if there aren't failures stemming from this period for Labour / UKIP / LDs to throw at them.
About that Hannover game.
It's amazing how comfortable Labour is defending producer interest. I suppose its been forever thus.
If not a loophole needs closed.
If that doesn't make tim reappear....
I could excuse away a 75% vote for striking on a 50% turnout. But not 99% on a 76% turnout.
10/1 Corbyn is replaced as Labour leader before year end.
http://ow.ly/UPQx3
The OECD has just maligned the NHS as one of the worst performing healthcare services in the developed world, while the British Social Attitudes Study which gave a near record NHS satisfaction rating is an annual perception study among the general population, and so based on current perception.
The answer is ... well, I have no idea, and nor do our politicians so far as I can tell.
Basically half the BMA membership has voted to strike.
The issue here for the government is that every year £1bn in extra NHS spending just goes straight into enhanced pay packets of NHS employees through the existing automatic pay escalator.
Not a bad outcome for the Government - any crisis in the NHS this winter can now be safely laid at their door not the hopeless Hunt's...
(PS - what is it about Tory health secretaries? Other than Ken (who was despised at the time of course) has there ever been a remotely competent one?)
This could be Dave's Miner's strike !!
One of the many miscalculations in the loan system - many experts in the field now expect the new loan system to and up costing the taxpayer more, in the long run, than the system it replaced.......