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  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    kle4 said:

    I see we have moved onto stage two in the unfortunate cycle these events seem to take.

    Things will be back to normal soon, then we can freshly declare thing will never be the same the next time it happens.
    Most will be back to "celebrity in the jungle", x-factor etc in a day or two
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited 2015 15
    John_M said:

    Roger said:

    Melanie and the Mail following a proud tradition. In fact all she needed to do was copy and paste...

    "The way stateless Jews are pouring into the country is a disgrace....

    https://tompride.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/german-jews-pouring-into-this-country.jpg

    Good morning all. Nice to see Roger displaying his usual tin ear while deploying his usual strawman arguments about Islamophobia. Look up the definition of 'phobia' you giant booby.

    People are disquieted about Muslims because they're the ones, by and large, who are cutting people's heads off, shooting people and blowing them up. You can't wibble that they're not 'true' Muslims - that's just sophistry.

    Let's think about the poor sods who have been variously killed, maimed and crippled in the name of 'Islam' before we worry about the phantom backlash.
    All Muslims ? By the same token no Irishman should have been allowed in the mainland in the 70s and 80s.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    Roger said:

    Cyclefree



    "The near universal reaction of most decent people has been sadness, solidarity with the victims, a desire not to blame our fellow innocent Muslims, compassion and a desire to extirpate this evil from our midst"

    What a difference a day makes..........

    "If Muslims in the West are not willing to accommodate themselves to the values, mores, laws and culture of the West then they are free to find somewhere more accommodating. But I am sick to the back teeth of us having to accommodate practices and so-called cultures which are barbaric in the name of some ludicrous and completely misdescribed diversity and non-discrimination."

    There is no contradiction. I make a distinction between practices and individuals. A Muslim who doesn't want to draw Mohammed can live here fine. A Muslim who tries to stop me drawing Mohammed and is willing to use violence to do so can "f**k off" in the words of the Mayor of Rotterdam.

    Try and understand the difference, Roger. It's really not hard.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    kle4 said:

    I see we have moved onto stage two in the unfortunate cycle these events seem to take.

    Things will be back to normal soon, then we can freshly declare thing will never be the same the next time it happens.
    No - there is stage 3 still to come: blaming the victims.

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited 2015 15
    @Morris_Dancer Don't know if you get the STimes - if you do Niall Ferguson compares the last days of Rome and Europe, and quotes Gibbon quite extensively http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/comment/columns/NiallFerguson/article1633179.ece
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756

    Sky news interrupting grieving people leaving flowers saying they are on Sky news from England and asking them to comment. A new low in journalism and an insult to the rest of the UK introducing Sky England

    It is normal practice by many
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016
    Cromwell said:

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the ''million muslim march '' or the ''not in our name ''demonstration in defence of the so called ''good muslims ''...it's not going to happen as a sizeable minority or even a majority secretly sympathize with these terrorists , while the rest are merely indifferent

    I’m not sure you are right there. I know a few Moslems who are equally horrified at what’s happening.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Brooke, I don't live in the Bahamas.

    Mr. Roger, that's utter tosh.

    If it were evil video games, why then are the perpetrators so often of one religious persuasion?

    That is the common link, and it's an obvious common link.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. NorthWales, that sounds ****ing despicable.

    I've long loathed the thrusting of microphones and cameras into the faces of grieving friends/family after a tragedy, and that sounds a particularly revolting example.

    Miss Plato, I don't, but that does sound interesting.

    Of course, it's forgotten that the Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy was actually pretty well run and civilised and could've become an ally to Byzantium (as it wanted to be) if Justinian hadn't been belligerent.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756

    Mr. Brooke, I don't live in the Bahamas.

    Mr. Roger, that's utter tosh.

    If it were evil video games, why then are the perpetrators so often of one religious persuasion?

    That is the common link, and it's an obvious common link.

    MD neither does Connery, I believe he spends most of his time in New York nowadays , so perhaps he is half Scottish / half Yorkish now.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016
    malcolmg said:

    Sky news interrupting grieving people leaving flowers saying they are on Sky news from England and asking them to comment. A new low in journalism and an insult to the rest of the UK introducing Sky England

    It is normal practice by many
    If it wasn’t for cricket I could manage very happily without Sky. Used to need it for the TV reception but now we’ve got Freeview .......
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited 2015 15
    surbiton said:

    John_M said:

    Roger said:

    Melanie and the Mail following a proud tradition. In fact all she needed to do was copy and paste...

    "The way stateless Jews are pouring into the country is a disgrace....

    https://tompride.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/german-jews-pouring-into-this-country.jpg

    Good morning all. Nice to see Roger displaying his usual tin ear while deploying his usual strawman arguments about Islamophobia. Look up the definition of 'phobia' you giant booby.

    People are disquieted about Muslims because they're the ones, by and large, who are cutting people's heads off, shooting people and blowing them up. You can't wibble that they're not 'true' Muslims - that's just sophistry.

    Let's think about the poor sods who have been variously killed, maimed and crippled in the name of 'Islam' before we worry about the phantom backlash.
    All Muslims ? By the same token no Irishman should have been allowed in the mainland in the 70s and 80s.
    I use the word 'disquieted'. Not 'string 'em all up'. As I posted yesterday, I have an Irish surname. I had a couple of fights (in the 70s) which started on that basis "Fecking Irish bastard" etc.

    However, I also had plenty of fights due to other factors, so I didn't start banging on about "Irishophobia".

    Others have already said it, but for the slow of thought, I am capable (like most of the populace) of being repulsed by Islamic terrorism, sickened by their apologists, while simultaneously passing the time of day with the nice Bosnian Muslim family who walk their dogs at the same time as I walk mine.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,876

    There has been for many years a noticeable absence of *moderates* willing to stand up and condemn. We get the odd one like Quilliam, but no mass protests from Joe Average/appearing on TV saying Not In My Name et al.

    I see it mentioned elsewhere a lot - where are all these Muslims who don't sympathise? Maybe it's fear of a backlash from their own side/Uncle Tomism. I've no idea as this isn't my peer group - but whilst this group says little and does less, it's going to be a problem for their faith.

    Cyclefree said:

    We cannot and should not hold all of Islam responsible for the actions of radical Islamists. However the roots to any solution of Islamism and the violence at the heart of that evil 'philosophy' lies within Islam as a broader community.

    There is no chance of Islamists being persuaded or deradicalised by any action that a Western government, organisation or individual can take.

    However if mainstream Islam could reach out and work with those who have had their world view perverted by Islamism and could find a way of taking action against those who profess to be followers of Islam but who have been corrupted - then there might be a long-term solution to be found.

    This is probably wishful thinking on my part. But I really cannot conceive of any EU or US or UK or French action that can bring about the defeat of Islamism. Killing their leaders won't achieve it. Cutting off their finances won't achieve it. Islamists won't listen to a word that a Westerner will say - but there might be those within Islam more broadly who can find a way forward.

    I am not an Islamaphobe (though I am totally against all religions) - however I am proud to identify as an Islamistaphobe. It is an evil, corrupt mindset - and one that needs to be tackled.

    That is exactly what the Quilliam Foundation spokesman was saying this morning. The Islamist view is one supremacist strand within Islam which needs to be countered by the more plural open and truer strands of Islam. We need more such people and for their voices to be heard.

    Remember the abuse / threats / action against Maajid Nawaz of the Quilliam Foundation for simply saying that cartoons of Muhhammad don't offend him personally live on tv...hardly you would think particularly outlandish thing to say.
    Maid Nawaz was branded Islamophobe of the Year by the Islamic " Human Rights" Commission
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    surbiton said:

    Roger said:

    I read a well constructed article on how Islamaphobia of the type Melanie Phillips propagates takes root..... .

    1. A group of lunatics perform an outrage. They CLAIM to do it in the name of Islam

    2. Moderate Muslims as outraged as everyone else denounces the attacks but are forced to defend their religion which they say is peaceful.

    3. These moderate Muslims are then attacked by the likes of Phillips for defending the indefensible

    You would have expected Phillips of all people to be more aware of the dangers of racial and religious intolerance

    However, Israel flattening Gaza and using disproportionate force by hundreds in magnitude is "self - defence"
    The comparison with Israel is instructive but not, perhaps, in the way you think - http://hurryupharry.org/2015/11/14/what-will-not-be-said/.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Betting Post
    Those of you considering Clive Lewis as Corbyn's replacement should read this from his former BBC colleagues.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319039/Ex-BBC-boss-accused-keeping-former-presenter-screen-racist-reasons-hits-insisting-Labour-MP-fired-political-dunce.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. G, you're claiming Connery's a Yorkshireman? :p
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    surbiton said:

    MikeK said:

    Melanie Phillips ‏@MelanieLatest 9m9 minutes ago
    'In the end, the decadence of Merkel, Holland, Cameron et al will cost you your world and everything you love' http://www.steynonline.com/7293/the-barbarians-are-inside-and-there-are-no-gates

    She should shut the F*ck up !
    So you don't believe she should have the right to express her views freely?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    "And then Europe decided to invite millions of Muslims to settle in their countries. Most of those people don't want to participate actively in bringing about the death of diners and concertgoers and soccer fans, but at a certain level most of them either wish or are indifferent to the death of the societies in which they live"

    The only thing you can really say about articles like this from Phillips is that it's appropriate that she writes for the Mail. It would be interesting to reprint some of their articles from another time when they also tried to stop the influx of refugees describing them as 'strange looking peope with whom we have nothing in common'.

    Odd Roger because I have just read the very same article and it says that it is written by Mark Steyn not by Melanie Phillips.

    On a day like today for you to bleat about Islamophobia is frankly indecent. It is entirely rational to fear a belief system, one strand of which inspires people to carry out acts of such barbarity as happened in Paris on Friday, in Paris in January, on the Brussels-Paris train, in Brussels in the attack on the synagogue, in Toulouse and in countless other places.

    Islamophobia was a genuine problem in the Yugoslav civil war. It scarcely exists in Western Europe.
    Hatred of Muslims was a problem in the Bosnian wars. Islamophobia means an irrational hatred of a religion. Hating an idea, whether rational or not, is fine. And to conflate dislike of ideas with dislike of people is exactly what the Islamists want so that (a) they can divide us from Muslims; and (b) stop any criticism of the religion.

    And I am not playing that game.
    I think your definition of 'islamaphobia' is too narrow. It's not just irrational hatred of a religion: it's hared of Muslims as well:

    'Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.'
    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/islamophobia

    'hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture'
    http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/islamophobia

    'hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture'
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/islamophobia

    etc.

    You might not like the definitions, but it's clear the dictionary definitions include dislike/hatred of the people as well, not just the religion.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362

    Mr. Smithson, glad you admire the grandness of Yorkshire :D

    There's a difference between "grandness" and "grandiosity". Yorkshire has more of the latter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiosity

    "Grandiosity refers to an unrealistic sense of superiority—a sustained view of oneself as better than others that causes the narcissist to view others with disdain or as inferior—as well as to a sense of uniqueness: the belief that few others have anything in common with oneself and that one can only be understood by a few or very special people. - Yorkshire and Yorkshire men in one paragraph.
    I think the term better fits Lefties....
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited 2015 15
    Whilst may usual suspects have increased their volume and are having another go at their barely concealed hatred of "Muslims" in general, I would equally say that many on the right here on PB have not followed suit and have put reasoned arguments.

    Unfortunately, those who shouts more gets heard but, hopefully, not listened !
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    "And then Europe decided to invite millions of Muslims to settle in their countries. Most of those people don't want to participate actively in bringing about the death of diners and concertgoers and soccer fans, but at a certain level most of them either wish or are indifferent to the death of the societies in which they live"

    The only thing you can really say about articles like this from Phillips is that it's appropriate that she writes for the Mail. It would be interesting to reprint some of their articles from another time when they also tried to stop the influx of refugees describing them as 'strange looking peope with whom we have nothing in common'.

    Odd Roger because I have just read the very same article and it says that it is written by Mark Steyn not by Melanie Phillips.

    On a day like today for you to bleat about Islamophobia is frankly indecent. It is entirely rational to fear a belief system, one strand of which inspires people to carry out acts of such barbarity as happened in Paris on Friday, in Paris in January, on the Brussels-Paris train, in Brussels in the attack on the synagogue, in Toulouse and in countless other places.

    Islamophobia was a genuine problem in the Yugoslav civil war. It scarcely exists in Western Europe.
    Hatred of Muslims was a problem in the Bosnian wars. Islamophobia means an irrational hatred of a religion. Hating an idea, whether rational or not, is fine. And to conflate dislike of ideas with dislike of people is exactly what the Islamists want so that (a) they can divide us from Muslims; and (b) stop any criticism of the religion.

    And I am not playing that game.
    I think your definition of 'islamaphobia' is too narrow. It's not just irrational hatred of a religion: it's hared of Muslims as well:

    'Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.'
    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/islamophobia

    'hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture'
    http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/islamophobia

    'hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture'
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/islamophobia

    etc.

    You might not like the definitions, but it's clear the dictionary definitions include dislike/hatred of the people as well, not just the religion.

    I read the plain English word. A word which means two different things, one of which is bad and one of which is fine is a useless word and dangerous in the current context. That's why it was put into general circulation. There was an agenda behind the conflation of criticism of individuals with criticism of ideas.


  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Janet Daly is trenchant as ever here - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11996143/Paris-terror-attacks-The-West-is-at-war-with-a-death-cult-we-must-join-together-to-stamp-it-out.html
    Civilians are not collateral damage in this campaign: their deaths are the whole point. This time there isn’t even the “logic” of the Charlie Hebdo attacks whose pretext was the blasphemous depiction of the Prophet. Just the slaughter of random innocents, many of whom may have been Muslims themselves, carried out for the sheer nihilistic thrill of it.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @surbiton

    'Unfortunately, those who shouts more gets heard but, hopefully, not listened !'


    You don't do self awareness !
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    Sean_F said:

    There has been for many years a noticeable absence of *moderates* willing to stand up and condemn. We get the odd one like Quilliam, but no mass protests from Joe Average/appearing on TV saying Not In My Name et al.

    I see it mentioned elsewhere a lot - where are all these Muslims who don't sympathise? Maybe it's fear of a backlash from their own side/Uncle Tomism. I've no idea as this isn't my peer group - but whilst this group says little and does less, it's going to be a problem for their faith.

    Cyclefree said:

    We cannot and should not hold all of Islam responsible for the actions of radical Islamists. However the roots to any solution of Islamism and the violence at the heart of that evil 'philosophy' lies within Islam as a broader community.

    There is no chance of Islamists being persuaded or deradicalised by any action that a Western government, organisation or individual can take.

    However if mainstream Islam could reach out and work with those who have had their world view perverted by Islamism and could find a way of taking action against those who profess to be followers of Islam but who have been corrupted - then there might be a long-term solution to be found.

    This is probably wishful thinking on my part. But I really cannot conceive of any EU or US or UK or French action that can bring about the defeat of Islamism. Killing their leaders won't achieve it. Cutting off their finances won't achieve it. Islamists won't listen to a word that a Westerner will say - but there might be those within Islam more broadly who can find a way forward.

    I am not an Islamaphobe (though I am totally against all religions) - however I am proud to identify as an Islamistaphobe. It is an evil, corrupt mindset - and one that needs to be tackled.

    That is exactly what the Quilliam Foundation spokesman was saying this morning. The Islamist view is one supremacist strand within Islam which needs to be countered by the more plural open and truer strands of Islam. We need more such people and for their voices to be heard.

    Remember the abuse / threats / action against Maajid Nawaz of the Quilliam Foundation for simply saying that cartoons of Muhhammad don't offend him personally live on tv...hardly you would think particularly outlandish thing to say.
    Maid Nawaz was branded Islamophobe of the Year by the Islamic " Human Rights" Commission
    They also gave the award this year to Charlie Hebdo and the presenter joked about no-one turning up to collect it. A revolting organisation.

  • CromwellCromwell Posts: 236

    Cromwell said:

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the ''million muslim march '' or the ''not in our name ''demonstration in defence of the so called ''good muslims ''...it's not going to happen as a sizeable minority or even a majority secretly sympathize with these terrorists , while the rest are merely indifferent

    I’m not sure you are right there. I know a few Moslems who are equally horrified at what’s happening.
    ==================

    If French or British muslims were really horrified or outraged they would take to the streets in mass protest ...it WILL NEVER HAPPEN as they are very poor citizens whose loyalty lies with Islam and not their host country

    Islam is a gruesome quasi medieval religion that no sensible person would be part of but it's true that the overwhelming number of MUSLIMS are not fanatics but are placid like say gasoline is placid in its liquid form ; unfortunately , all it takes is one careless spark to ignite it ...unfortunately , you just never know when they are going to go off their rockers ..it's like invasion of the body snatchers
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    malcolmg said:

    Sky news interrupting grieving people leaving flowers saying they are on Sky news from England and asking them to comment. A new low in journalism and an insult to the rest of the UK introducing Sky England

    It is normal practice by many
    If it wasn’t for cricket I could manage very happily without Sky. Used to need it for the TV reception but now we’ve got Freeview .......
    The 1992 World Cup got me into Sky. I sat down at 10:30pm to watch the highlights on BBC2 and found no cricket. What ? No cricket ? The seeds of personal destruction was sowed right then.

    Over the years, what a wastage of money. Particularly, the movie channels. Horror / Sci-fi, that's it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,550
    Cromwell said:

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the ''million muslim march '' or the ''not in our name ''demonstration in defence of the so called ''good muslims ''...it's not going to happen as a sizeable minority or even a majority secretly sympathize with these terrorists , while the rest are merely indifferent

    There is one positive thing to come out of this , Londoners are not going to elect a muslim as Mayor , especially when he is associated with a left wing loon like Corbyn

    That's a couple of hostages you've given to the betting gods. Just for the record, how much have you laid against Hilary and Khan?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Roger said:

    The way this thing was executed in Paris and with the ages of the boys involved I wonder whether it has more to do with video games than Islam which I doubt a 15 year old will know much about

    Rog.

    I'm afraid he'd be in his bedroom playing Fallout 4 if he enjoyed video games that much.

    QTWROISW

    (Questions to which Roger is wrong)
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    I see we have moved onto stage two in the unfortunate cycle these events seem to take.

    Things will be back to normal soon, then we can freshly declare thing will never be the same the next time it happens.
    No - there is stage 3 still to come: blaming the victims.

    Cyclefree, wasn't there a time when you were a "liberal" ? Or, am I making an identity mistake. You are metamorphosising into a Plato !
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    Talking head woman on Sky - criminals and criminality can't bring herself to use word Terrorist.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    New Zealand could put themselves in a position to win the WACA test if they bat well tommorow, extraordinary !
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    Pulpstar said:

    Roger said:

    The way this thing was executed in Paris and with the ages of the boys involved I wonder whether it has more to do with video games than Islam which I doubt a 15 year old will know much about

    Rog.

    I'm afraid he'd be in his bedroom playing Fallout 4 if he enjoyed video games that much.

    QTWROISW

    (Questions to which Roger is wrong)
    Just as well Roger isn't advocating votes for 15 year olds.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    dr_spyn said:

    Talking head woman on Sky - criminals and criminality can't bring herself to use word Terrorist.

    She's getting on my pip. I wanna stab her in the head with my teaspoon.

    Nothing to do with Islam yet Islamic State are claiming responsibility.

    She's making out these terrorists are poor, artful dodger types with guns.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Pulpstar said:

    Roger said:

    The way this thing was executed in Paris and with the ages of the boys involved I wonder whether it has more to do with video games than Islam which I doubt a 15 year old will know much about

    Rog.

    I'm afraid he'd be in his bedroom playing Fallout 4 if he enjoyed video games that much.

    QTWROISW

    (Questions to which Roger is wrong)
    Roger is always wrong, except for the Oscars, a topic on which he inexplicably excels. I've long just popped him into the 'idiot savant' pigeonhole, where he cheerfully dwells to this day.

    I think people who don't play video games don't get gamer mentality (why would they?). There is always something that sets nutters off. High school shooters are often addicted to FPSes (e.g. CoD), but there's plenty of research to show there's no significant correlation.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I can't watch the news anymore - we're in Interview Grieving Friends & Relatives mode and digging out bystanders saying the same things others said yesterday.

    Next it's Victim Blaming/handwringing. Hopefully this period won't last too long.
    dr_spyn said:

    Talking head woman on Sky - criminals and criminality can't bring herself to use word Terrorist.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,535
    Roger said:

    The way this thing was executed in Paris and with the ages of the boys involved I wonder whether it has more to do with video games than Islam which I doubt a 15 year old will know much about

    In the Islamic world, a full on madrass education consists of learning to read and write, so that the child can learn by rote the entire Koran. Often starts at 6 or so. The spread of this kind of education is a major reason for the collapse in literature in the Arabic world.

    The Muslim cultures that don't do this - such as in Thailand - have a far higher output of things other than religious texts. Funny that.

    Even without a madrass education, in an Islamic country a child would be expected to be a devote, practicing Muslim from the time he could start to communicate.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Cromwell said:

    ......
    There is one positive thing to come out of this , Londoners are not going to elect a muslim as Mayor , especially when he is associated with a left wing loon like Corbyn

    There are also has visits to his friend in jail Babar Ahmad, who eventually pleaded guilty to "conspiracy and providing material to support to terrorism". So no problem there?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    On a lighter Sky News note, enjoy the comments below this tweet:
    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/665807478060392448
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Yorkcity said:

    Many politicians call terrorists cowards.
    I have always found that strange.

    "a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things"

    I would use other desciptions as whatever they are coward does not seem correct.

    The argument is they are attacking people who can't fight back rather than equal adversaries
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    JustRegularAndrew is very funny along with the poppy reply!

    On a lighter Sky News note, enjoy the comments below this tweet:
    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/665807478060392448

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,740
    edited 2015 15

    Mr. Smithson, glad you admire the grandness of Yorkshire :D

    There's a difference between "grandness" and "grandiosity". Yorkshire has more of the latter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiosity

    "Grandiosity refers to an unrealistic sense of superiority—a sustained view of oneself as better than others that causes the narcissist to view others with disdain or as inferior—as well as to a sense of uniqueness: the belief that few others have anything in common with oneself and that one can only be understood by a few or very special people. - Yorkshire and Yorkshire men in one paragraph.
    The afternoon thread was going to be about giving PBers and Dave a history lesson.

    Now it might be about the awesomeness of Yorkshire.

    45 Reasons Yorkshire Is Better Than Lancashire

    http://bzfd.it/1PucDin
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    One out all out,

    "Extending strikes to Syria would be a "token gesture" and will not lead to the defeat of Isil, says Clare Short."

    Must have misunderstood that tweet on Politics Home.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Cromwell said:

    Cromwell said:

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the ''million muslim march '' or the ''not in our name ''demonstration in defence of the so called ''good muslims ''...it's not going to happen as a sizeable minority or even a majority secretly sympathize with these terrorists , while the rest are merely indifferent

    I’m not sure you are right there. I know a few Moslems who are equally horrified at what’s happening.
    ==================

    If French or British muslims were really horrified or outraged they would take to the streets in mass protest ...it WILL NEVER HAPPEN as they are very poor citizens whose loyalty lies with Islam and not their host country

    Islam is a gruesome quasi medieval religion that no sensible person would be part of but it's true that the overwhelming number of MUSLIMS are not fanatics but are placid like say gasoline is placid in its liquid form ; unfortunately , all it takes is one careless spark to ignite it ...unfortunately , you just never know when they are going to go off their rockers ..it's like invasion of the body snatchers
    I read somewhere that the highest number of conversions to another religion in the West [ Europe and North America ] is to Islam. Mostly white women apparently.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016
    surbiton said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sky news interrupting grieving people leaving flowers saying they are on Sky news from England and asking them to comment. A new low in journalism and an insult to the rest of the UK introducing Sky England

    It is normal practice by many
    If it wasn’t for cricket I could manage very happily without Sky. Used to need it for the TV reception but now we’ve got Freeview .......
    The 1992 World Cup got me into Sky. I sat down at 10:30pm to watch the highlights on BBC2 and found no cricket. What ? No cricket ? The seeds of personal destruction was sowed right then.

    Over the years, what a wastage of money. Particularly, the movie channels. Horror / Sci-fi, that's it.
    I’m rather amused by the regular calls I get from Sky offering insurance against breakdown of the box. No more than £10 per month or something, or it’ll cost me £100 for a callout. We’ve had the box for 6-7 years and never paid either insurance or a call-out. So when we do have a breakdown it’ll be a new box!

    Of course I’m probably tempting fate!
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited 2015 15
    Cromwell said:

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the ''million muslim march '' or the ''not in our name ''demonstration in defence of the so called ''good muslims ''...it's not going to happen as a sizeable minority or even a majority secretly sympathize with these terrorists , while the rest are merely indifferent

    There is one positive thing to come out of this , Londoners are not going to elect a muslim as Mayor , especially when he is associated with a left wing loon like Corbyn

    One of the only ways we're going to start undoing the evils of identity politics is if Londoners DO elect Khan, but NOT because he's a Muslim. I don't give a crap what religion someone standing for public office professes. We really do have to stop this lazy categorisation.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,013
    Charles said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Many politicians call terrorists cowards.
    I have always found that strange.

    "a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things"

    I would use other desciptions as whatever they are coward does not seem correct.

    The argument is they are attacking people who can't fight back rather than equal adversaries
    The full forces of a state are not an equal adversary. There are many descriptions and judgements that can be made of suicide terrorists but I don't think cowardice is among them.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    JustRegularAndrew is very funny along with the poppy reply!

    On a lighter Sky News note, enjoy the comments below this tweet:
    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/665807478060392448

    This is my field of expertise. That labrador is hungry, don't even argue with me.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. M, not sure ethnic quotas in the workplace is a weapon in the fight against identity politics bullshit.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    surbiton said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    I see we have moved onto stage two in the unfortunate cycle these events seem to take.

    Things will be back to normal soon, then we can freshly declare thing will never be the same the next time it happens.
    No - there is stage 3 still to come: blaming the victims.

    Cyclefree, wasn't there a time when you were a "liberal" ? Or, am I making an identity mistake. You are metamorphosising into a Plato !
    Cyclefree has consistently been one of the most lucid and insightful posters on this site. If not THE most.

    I find myself in very large agreement with her position. Unlike those on the Left, she isn't in the horribly conflicted position of having to be apologists for just one section of our multitude of religious communities. A section that has within them a rabid contingent who wish to impose their religion on all others. A section who give many English Labour MPs their thumping majorities, if not their seat in Westminster itself.

    So you are more likely to hear Cyclefree making a valuable contribution to this debate than Labour.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Mr. M, not sure ethnic quotas in the workplace is a weapon in the fight against identity politics bullshit.

    Identity quota is wrong except perhaps with physically disabled people.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,535

    Roger said:

    I read a well constructed article on how Islamaphobia of the type Melanie Phillips propagates takes root..... .

    1. A group of lunatics perform an outrage. They CLAIM to do it in the name of Islam

    2. Moderate Muslims as outraged as everyone else denounces the attacks but are forced to defend their religion which they say is peaceful.

    3. These moderate Muslims are then attacked by the likes of Phillips for defending the indefensible

    You would have expected Phillips of all people to be more aware of the dangers of racial and religious intolerance

    Funnily enough Roger, it starts in ordinary folk when terrorists bomb shoot, kill and maim people because they are supposedly infidels

    These people are not true muslins but they will be seen as such
    The problem is that for thousands of years violence in the name of religion has been the right thing and the Enlightenment is a modern idea. The terrorists belong in the past but the idea that they're not try Muslims ... it's like if Aztecs survived to today but post enlightenment didn't do human sacrifices but then an Aztec terrorist group sprung up doing human sacrifices and everyone said "they're not true Aztecs"
    The problem is that for the left (especially), the idea that a person who does something good can also be a bad person is problematic. George Orwell discussed this in his essay "Must we burn de Sade?". For example, consider the bizarre sight of feminists defending Roman Polanski on the grounds that he is a great film maker.

    If you are on the left, you much appear to be anti racist. Therefore all Muslims are good. But the terrorists are bad. Therefore they are not Muslims.....

    The simple fact is that the Paris terrorists were Muslims. They thought they were Muslims, and probably all their families and friends (who are probably all Muslims) thought they were Muslims as well.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    I see we have moved onto stage two in the unfortunate cycle these events seem to take.

    Things will be back to normal soon, then we can freshly declare thing will never be the same the next time it happens.
    No - there is stage 3 still to come: blaming the victims.

    Cyclefree, wasn't there a time when you were a "liberal" ? Or, am I making an identity mistake. You are metamorphosising into a Plato !
    Cyclefree has consistently been one of the most lucid and insightful posters on this site. If not THE most.

    I find myself in very large agreement with her position. Unlike those on the Left, she isn't in the horribly conflicted position of having to be apologists for just one section of our multitude of religious communities. A section that has within them a rabid contingent who wish to impose their religion on all others. A section who give many English Labour MPs their thumping majorities, if not their seat in Westminster itself.

    So you are more likely to hear Cyclefree making a valuable contribution to this debate than Labour.
    What utter tripe ! I asked her if she was a liberal once, I didn't expect to get a thesis from you !
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Mr. M, not sure ethnic quotas in the workplace is a weapon in the fight against identity politics bullshit.

    I know nothing of the guy's policy positions. That's a good reason to vote for Zac, I agree. My argument is that saying "Don't vote for him, he's a Muslim" is spectacularly stupid.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362

    surbiton said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sky news interrupting grieving people leaving flowers saying they are on Sky news from England and asking them to comment. A new low in journalism and an insult to the rest of the UK introducing Sky England

    It is normal practice by many
    If it wasn’t for cricket I could manage very happily without Sky. Used to need it for the TV reception but now we’ve got Freeview .......
    The 1992 World Cup got me into Sky. I sat down at 10:30pm to watch the highlights on BBC2 and found no cricket. What ? No cricket ? The seeds of personal destruction was sowed right then.

    Over the years, what a wastage of money. Particularly, the movie channels. Horror / Sci-fi, that's it.
    I’m rather amused by the regular calls I get from Sky offering insurance against breakdown of the box. No more than £10 per month or something, or it’ll cost me £100 for a callout. We’ve had the box for 6-7 years and never paid either insurance or a call-out. So when we do have a breakdown it’ll be a new box!

    Of course I’m probably tempting fate!
    Like when Currys try to sell me insurance at the checkout, I just ask them "why would I need insurance - unless you are selling me a product you know to be shit?"

    They tend not to press it any further.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    surbiton said:

    Cromwell said:

    Cromwell said:

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the ''million muslim march '' or the ''not in our name ''demonstration in defence of the so called ''good muslims ''...it's not going to happen as a sizeable minority or even a majority secretly sympathize with these terrorists , while the rest are merely indifferent

    I’m not sure you are right there. I know a few Moslems who are equally horrified at what’s happening.
    ==================

    If French or British muslims were really horrified or outraged they would take to the streets in mass protest ...it WILL NEVER HAPPEN as they are very poor citizens whose loyalty lies with Islam and not their host country

    Islam is a gruesome quasi medieval religion that no sensible person would be part of but it's true that the overwhelming number of MUSLIMS are not fanatics but are placid like say gasoline is placid in its liquid form ; unfortunately , all it takes is one careless spark to ignite it ...unfortunately , you just never know when they are going to go off their rockers ..it's like invasion of the body snatchers
    I read somewhere that the highest number of conversions to another religion in the West [ Europe and North America ] is to Islam. Mostly white women apparently.
    Picked up from social services?
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    edited 2015 15
    Cromwell said:

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the ''million muslim march '' or the ''not in our name ''demonstration in defence of the so called ''good muslims ''...it's not going to happen as a sizeable minority or even a majority secretly sympathize with these terrorists , while the rest are merely indifferent


    I trust you take to the streets to protest every time a white person kills someone in a racially motivated attack? After all, you share the guilt.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sky news interrupting grieving people leaving flowers saying they are on Sky news from England and asking them to comment. A new low in journalism and an insult to the rest of the UK introducing Sky England

    It is normal practice by many
    If it wasn’t for cricket I could manage very happily without Sky. Used to need it for the TV reception but now we’ve got Freeview .......
    The 1992 World Cup got me into Sky. I sat down at 10:30pm to watch the highlights on BBC2 and found no cricket. What ? No cricket ? The seeds of personal destruction was sowed right then.

    Over the years, what a wastage of money. Particularly, the movie channels. Horror / Sci-fi, that's it.
    I’m rather amused by the regular calls I get from Sky offering insurance against breakdown of the box. No more than £10 per month or something, or it’ll cost me £100 for a callout. We’ve had the box for 6-7 years and never paid either insurance or a call-out. So when we do have a breakdown it’ll be a new box!

    Of course I’m probably tempting fate!
    You have stolen my top secret "white goods buying policy". Never pay more than £300. When it goes kaput [ usually 5 - 7 years ] get a new one. Also latest energy consumption technology !
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,013
    surbiton said:

    FPT: I have no problem with electoral pacts , in principle. Each one negotiated separately. Oncs, PR of any kind is achieved, even AMS, then that would no longer be necessary.

    The writer of the main article in the previous thread is a Tory. He obviously does not want an electoral pact within the opposition for obvious reasons. FPTP should be buried.

    You are completely wrong. I favour PR for at least one House of parliament. You might also note that NickP - hardly a Tory - agrees with my reasoning.

    As was proven in 2010, the Conservatives have little to fear existentially from PR. A party that has survived all the changes since before 1832 need not worry about a change to the voting system. And as I mentioned in the article, had 2015 been run under PR, Cameron would probably still be PM now.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sky news interrupting grieving people leaving flowers saying they are on Sky news from England and asking them to comment. A new low in journalism and an insult to the rest of the UK introducing Sky England

    It is normal practice by many
    If it wasn’t for cricket I could manage very happily without Sky. Used to need it for the TV reception but now we’ve got Freeview .......
    The 1992 World Cup got me into Sky. I sat down at 10:30pm to watch the highlights on BBC2 and found no cricket. What ? No cricket ? The seeds of personal destruction was sowed right then.

    Over the years, what a wastage of money. Particularly, the movie channels. Horror / Sci-fi, that's it.
    I’m rather amused by the regular calls I get from Sky offering insurance against breakdown of the box. No more than £10 per month or something, or it’ll cost me £100 for a callout. We’ve had the box for 6-7 years and never paid either insurance or a call-out. So when we do have a breakdown it’ll be a new box!

    Of course I’m probably tempting fate!
    You have stolen my top secret "white goods buying policy". Never pay more than £300. When it goes kaput [ usually 5 - 7 years ] get a new one. Also latest energy consumption technology !
    Often you can get a discount on the item by agreeing to sign up for their overpriced warranty or insurance. As soon as the item arrives, cancel the insurance (which by law you can do penalty free with 14 days of signing up)

    Another trick is to go the last working day of the month as this is usually the end of a sales reporting period, and the staff will have sales targets to hit.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,108
    Well, yes. it's all very well being "trenchant" or "angry" or railing against liberals and multiculturalism and all the rest of it but as I often find with Daly it's long on invective and short on practical responses.

    The failure to establish an adequate registration process at the external borders is something all EU countries (whether in Schengen or not) are going to have to live with. The problem is the southern and eastern borders are huge but it has to be done at places like Lesbos and Lampedusa establishing defined corridors of entry from Africa and Turkey into the EU. You'd probably have to do the same in the western Med at Ceuta and Gibraltar or on the southern Spanish coast.

    Vessels attempting to land elsewhere would either be taken to the processing ports or turned back to their point of origin by force. We will need to build transit camps (large ones, funded and supported by all the EU countries) at or near these designated entry points and the registration process needs to be resourced and accelerated. The aim though would be to send the message that it's the same process whether you're in a camp on the Syrian border or one in say Greece and you've done yourself no favours making the journey.

    We need to be much more assertive against the people smugglers and I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't British criminal elements involved somewhere along the line. A co-ordinated multi-agency response is needed to find and arrest those profiting from such misery.

    At the same time, the global community needs to be involved in Syria, Libya and elsewhere - enforcing ceasefires, no fly zones if need be and setting up a global reconstruction fund with a large slab of it coming from the Gulf States - I reckon $500 billion would be a good start. Rebuilding Syria and Libya is a chance to show the finest of capitalism - provide work, get people setting up businesses, rebuild and restore not through the crony capitalism planned for Iraq by Bush and Cheney but a global,effort (and that includes the Chinese as well).

    If people are making money, they are too busy to be making war - the same would work in Gaza and the West Bank. Poverty and helplessness are the tools the radicals use to recruit - rebuild the countries, clear the camps, get the people back home working and living again. Run the failed states under UN mandate until free and fair elections can be held and they can be returned to the rule of law.

    It's not quick, easy or cheap - as Kieren said yesterday, it's an inter-generational problem and so is the solution. It won't end the violence and terror overnight but it's a positive, expansive and hopeful response.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,920
    Morning all. Catching up after a week away. Are we all in agreement now of the need to bomb the hell out of ISIL and their twisted ideology wherever it is found?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,482
    dr_spyn said:

    One out all out,

    "Extending strikes to Syria would be a "token gesture" and will not lead to the defeat of Isil, says Clare Short."

    Must have misunderstood that tweet on Politics Home.

    Absolutely right. The American air strikes are a token gesture (events of a few days ago proving this point quite literally), the British addition would be a token token.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,013

    Mr. Smithson, glad you admire the grandness of Yorkshire :D

    There's a difference between "grandness" and "grandiosity". Yorkshire has more of the latter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiosity

    "Grandiosity refers to an unrealistic sense of superiority—a sustained view of oneself as better than others that causes the narcissist to view others with disdain or as inferior—as well as to a sense of uniqueness: the belief that few others have anything in common with oneself and that one can only be understood by a few or very special people. - Yorkshire and Yorkshire men in one paragraph.
    It doesn't count when it's justified :)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240
    Cyclefree said:


    I think your definition of 'islamaphobia' is too narrow. It's not just irrational hatred of a religion: it's hared of Muslims as well:

    'Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.'
    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/islamophobia

    'hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture'
    http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/islamophobia

    'hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture'
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/islamophobia

    etc.

    You might not like the definitions, but it's clear the dictionary definitions include dislike/hatred of the people as well, not just the religion.

    I read the plain English word. A word which means two different things, one of which is bad and one of which is fine is a useless word and dangerous in the current context. That's why it was put into general circulation. There was an agenda behind the conflation of criticism of individuals with criticism of ideas.
    It's quite clear what 'Islamaphobia' means. If you have a problem with the dictionary definitions, take it up with them.

    In the meantime, use 'Islampahobia' as it is in the dictionary, not how you'd like it to be.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Sandpit said:

    Morning all. Catching up after a week away. Are we all in agreement now of the need to bomb the hell out of ISIL and their twisted ideology wherever it is found?

    ISIS certainly agree with that idea.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,482
    By the way, what do we think of these people seemingly being found with their passports? I don't get it. Wouldn't be something I'd take with me on my way to commit a terrorist atrocity. Or would it? Odd.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,418
    surbiton said:

    Cromwell said:

    Cromwell said:

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the ''million muslim march '' or the ''not in our name ''demonstration in defence of the so called ''good muslims ''...it's not going to happen as a sizeable minority or even a majority secretly sympathize with these terrorists , while the rest are merely indifferent

    I’m not sure you are right there. I know a few Moslems who are equally horrified at what’s happening.
    ==================

    If French or British muslims were really horrified or outraged they would take to the streets in mass protest ...it WILL NEVER HAPPEN as they are very poor citizens whose loyalty lies with Islam and not their host country

    Islam is a gruesome quasi medieval religion that no sensible person would be part of but it's true that the overwhelming number of MUSLIMS are not fanatics but are placid like say gasoline is placid in its liquid form ; unfortunately , all it takes is one careless spark to ignite it ...unfortunately , you just never know when they are going to go off their rockers ..it's like invasion of the body snatchers
    I read somewhere that the highest number of conversions to another religion in the West [ Europe and North America ] is to Islam. Mostly white women apparently.
    I am sure more people convert to atheism, but that won't count.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    surbiton said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sky news interrupting grieving people leaving flowers saying they are on Sky news from England and asking them to comment. A new low in journalism and an insult to the rest of the UK introducing Sky England

    It is normal practice by many
    If it wasn’t for cricket I could manage very happily without Sky. Used to need it for the TV reception but now we’ve got Freeview .......
    The 1992 World Cup got me into Sky. I sat down at 10:30pm to watch the highlights on BBC2 and found no cricket. What ? No cricket ? The seeds of personal destruction was sowed right then.

    Over the years, what a wastage of money. Particularly, the movie channels. Horror / Sci-fi, that's it.
    I’m rather amused by the regular calls I get from Sky offering insurance against breakdown of the box. No more than £10 per month or something, or it’ll cost me £100 for a callout. We’ve had the box for 6-7 years and never paid either insurance or a call-out. So when we do have a breakdown it’ll be a new box!

    Of course I’m probably tempting fate!
    These usually arent from sky, but bogus warranty companies implying they are. You will never get anything out of them if the box does break down.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''I read somewhere that the highest number of conversions to another religion in the West [ Europe and North America ] is to Islam. Mostly white women apparently.''

    It;'s hardly a level playing field. Apostates run the gamut of threats, intimidation or worse if they try to leave Islam. And our state does precisely zero to protect them.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    edited 2015 15

    By the way, what do we think of these people seemingly being found with their passports? I don't get it. Wouldn't be something I'd take with me on my way to commit a terrorist atrocity. Or would it? Odd.

    Depends if you fire off a couple of clips from an AK47 into a restaurant, then get away and make a break for the border to repeat it another day.

    Rather inconsistent with wearing a suicide vest though, I'll give you that...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,550
    Charles said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Many politicians call terrorists cowards.
    I have always found that strange.

    "a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things"

    I would use other desciptions as whatever they are coward does not seem correct.

    The argument is they are attacking people who can't fight back rather than equal adversaries
    Drone operators are cowards? I wouldn't have gone that far myself..
  • CromwellCromwell Posts: 236

    Cromwell said:

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the ''million muslim march '' or the ''not in our name ''demonstration in defence of the so called ''good muslims ''...it's not going to happen as a sizeable minority or even a majority secretly sympathize with these terrorists , while the rest are merely indifferent

    There is one positive thing to come out of this , Londoners are not going to elect a muslim as Mayor , especially when he is associated with a left wing loon like Corbyn

    That's a couple of hostages you've given to the betting gods. Just for the record, how much have you laid against Hilary and Khan?
    -----------------------------------

    I HAVE BET A SIGNIFICANT AMMOUNT OF LUCRE ON BOTH Zac GOLDSMITH @ EVENS AND MARCO RUBIO TO BECOME PRESIDENT @7-1 AND RUBIO TO BECOME REPUBLICAN NOMONEE @2-1.........SO THERE !

    Sadiq Khan doesn't just have his religion as a handicap , he is guilty by association with the loon Corbyn ; after all , he was one of the ..morons'' who nominated Corbyn and without the rise of Corbynmania it seems unlikely that he would of defeated Tessa Jowel

    He swept to victory in the Corbyn wake and unfortunately for him , when the Corbyn led labour ship sinks he is very likely to get dragged down in the vortex ..indeed , corbyn is a mill stone around his neck as the London Mayor's race will be a vote of confidence on Corbyn's leadership that he will fail miserably

    Lynton Crosby will use the fear of Corbyn and Islam to spook the London suburbon voters to the polls ...they will never tolerate either of them

    Furthermore , Londoners like their Mayors to be mavericks ; Goldsmith lacks the X Factor of Boris but he 's young , handsome and an environmentalist that will appeal to younger voters

    Khan is a rather typical orthodox left wing Labour MP with an introverted personality ...he will never become Mayor of London
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Not a terrorism expert, but if plans might be amended or aborted at the last minute it may be vital to have ID to hand, so you don't have to return home.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,535

    By the way, what do we think of these people seemingly being found with their passports? I don't get it. Wouldn't be something I'd take with me on my way to commit a terrorist atrocity. Or would it? Odd.

    Depends if you fire off a couple of clips from an AK47 into a restaurant, then get away and make a break for the border to repeat it another day.

    Rather inconsistent with wearing a suicide vest though, I'll give you that...
    I believe it has to do with wanting the show the world who they were. They want their names and faces published after they are dead. This seems to be standard for suicide bombers.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240

    By the way, what do we think of these people seemingly being found with their passports? I don't get it. Wouldn't be something I'd take with me on my way to commit a terrorist atrocity. Or would it? Odd.

    Could be many things.

    Perhaps they felt they might need them for id purposes on the way to the targets. Perhaps some were hoping to get away (even the suicide bombers, if they'd intended to drop the bombs off but the situation did not allow them). Or perhaps they didn't care. Or perhaps they're sending a message - if the passports are real or faked.

    False passports could lead the authorities down dead ends that may cost them a few hours. Hopefully the authorities would have enough bandwidth to continue other avenues of identification as wall as following up the passports.

    It's not something I see as strange, at least on the face of it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    By the way, what do we think of these people seemingly being found with their passports? I don't get it. Wouldn't be something I'd take with me on my way to commit a terrorist atrocity. Or would it? Odd.

    Believe it's fairly standard: they *want* to be identified
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Sandpit said:

    Morning all. Catching up after a week away. Are we all in agreement now of the need to bomb the hell out of ISIL and their twisted ideology wherever it is found?

    No - at the end of the day bombing low-level enemy resources is counter-productive. We have bombs that can target the front or the back of a Toyota pick-up - but spending £50,000 to destroy a single vehicle (easily replaced) is wasteful. Far better to have a load of cheap non-precision bombs that can take out 20 or 30 vehicles or carpet-bomb strategic installations.

    The war is no really militaristic, it is ideological - and the only solution is basically the foot and mouth one.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Cromwell said:

    Cromwell said:

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the ''million muslim march '' or the ''not in our name ''demonstration in defence of the so called ''good muslims ''...it's not going to happen as a sizeable minority or even a majority secretly sympathize with these terrorists , while the rest are merely indifferent

    There is one positive thing to come out of this , Londoners are not going to elect a muslim as Mayor , especially when he is associated with a left wing loon like Corbyn

    That's a couple of hostages you've given to the betting gods. Just for the record, how much have you laid against Hilary and Khan?
    -----------------------------------

    I HAVE BET A SIGNIFICANT AMMOUNT OF LUCRE ON BOTH Zac GOLDSMITH @ EVENS AND MARCO RUBIO TO BECOME PRESIDENT @7-1 AND RUBIO TO BECOME REPUBLICAN NOMONEE @2-1.........SO THERE !

    Sadiq Khan doesn't just have his religion as a handicap , he is guilty by association with the loon Corbyn ; after all , he was one of the ..morons'' who nominated Corbyn and without the rise of Corbynmania it seems unlikely that he would of defeated Tessa Jowel

    He swept to victory in the Corbyn wake and unfortunately for him , when the Corbyn led labour ship sinks he is very likely to get dragged down in the vortex ..indeed , corbyn is a mill stone around his neck as the London Mayor's race will be a vote of confidence on Corbyn's leadership that he will fail miserably

    Lynton Crosby will use the fear of Corbyn and Islam to spook the London suburbon voters to the polls ...they will never tolerate either of them

    Furthermore , Londoners like their Mayors to be mavericks ; Goldsmith lacks the X Factor of Boris but he 's young , handsome and an environmentalist that will appeal to younger voters

    Khan is a rather typical orthodox left wing Labour MP with an introverted personality ...he will never become Mayor of London
    "Lynton Crosby will use the fear of Corbyn and Islam to spook the London suburbon voters to the polls ...they will never tolerate either of them "

    I don't think even the Tories would do that.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Jessop, there's a suggestion a couple may have escaped.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,013
    Cromwell said:

    Hillary is never going to be President ; she is too divisive and polarising ...she is just too retro ...the country doesn't want a Bush dynasty or a Clinton dynasty
    Marco Rubio has got her number ..he has a sunny affable disposition , like Bill Clinton and Reagan ,is a slick operator , is young , dynamic and Kennedy-esque; what's more he is in the zeitgeist and an obvious winner

    That'll be why he's currently third in the polls for the nomination with the support of less than one Republican in eight?
  • CromwellCromwell Posts: 236

    Cromwell said:

    ......
    There is one positive thing to come out of this , Londoners are not going to elect a muslim as Mayor , especially when he is associated with a left wing loon like Corbyn

    There are also has visits to his friend in jail Babar Ahmad, who eventually pleaded guilty to "conspiracy and providing material to support to terrorism". So no problem there?
    ---
    The Tory print media will have a field day with Khan and his Islamic connections
    Londoners are pretty tolerant but they are not gormless enough to elect a Muslim mayor in a craven attempt at appeasing Muslims ...we are just not that far gone yet ....furthermore , there are many east Europeans living in London who positively loath Muslims
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Charles said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Many politicians call terrorists cowards.
    I have always found that strange.

    "a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things"

    I would use other desciptions as whatever they are coward does not seem correct.

    The argument is they are attacking people who can't fight back rather than equal adversaries
    Drone operators are cowards? I wouldn't have gone that far myself..
    They indeed are cowards. Or a B52 pilot dropping bombs well above the missile range.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,482

    By the way, what do we think of these people seemingly being found with their passports? I don't get it. Wouldn't be something I'd take with me on my way to commit a terrorist atrocity. Or would it? Odd.

    Depends if you fire off a couple of clips from an AK47 into a restaurant, then get away and make a break for the border to repeat it another day.

    Rather inconsistent with wearing a suicide vest though, I'll give you that...
    I'm not sure a Syrian passport would be a tremendous help under those circumstances.

    However, Morris Dancer's suggestion above makes sense.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,418

    Mr. Jessop, there's a suggestion a couple may have escaped.

    There is definitely a discrepancy between the figures - 7 stated by the authorities, 8 by ISIL.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Charles said:

    By the way, what do we think of these people seemingly being found with their passports? I don't get it. Wouldn't be something I'd take with me on my way to commit a terrorist atrocity. Or would it? Odd.

    Believe it's fairly standard: they *want* to be identified
    It's so that conspiracy theorists can trudge their inevitable, unhinged path to asserting they were all CIA operatives (using fake passports) attempting to discredit ISIS.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited 2015 15
    Malmesbury



    "Even without a madrass education, in an Islamic country a child would be expected to be a devote, practicing Muslim from the time he could start to communicate. "

    But all the recent outrages (probably including the most recent) were carried out by people who were not brought up in Muslim countries or with an Islamic education.

    My post about video games was not meant to be taken seriously. (It obviously hit a nerve-didn't realize how many posters were into them!) but my point was the one that Janet Daley makes when she says of the Paris outrage "it was simply carried out for the sheer nihilistic thrill of it."

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited 2015 15

    surbiton said:

    Cromwell said:

    Cromwell said:

    Don't hold your breath waiting for the ''million muslim march '' or the ''not in our name ''demonstration in defence of the so called ''good muslims ''...it's not going to happen as a sizeable minority or even a majority secretly sympathize with these terrorists , while the rest are merely indifferent

    I’m not sure you are right there. I know a few Moslems who are equally horrified at what’s happening.
    ==================

    If French or British muslims were really horrified or outraged they would take to the streets in mass protest ...it WILL NEVER HAPPEN as they are very poor citizens whose loyalty lies with Islam and not their host country

    Islam is a gruesome quasi medieval religion that no sensible person would be part of but it's true that the overwhelming number of MUSLIMS are not fanatics but are placid like say gasoline is placid in its liquid form ; unfortunately , all it takes is one careless spark to ignite it ...unfortunately , you just never know when they are going to go off their rockers ..it's like invasion of the body snatchers
    I read somewhere that the highest number of conversions to another religion in the West [ Europe and North America ] is to Islam. Mostly white women apparently.
    I am sure more people convert to atheism, but that won't count.
    You are probably correct. However, when I read this it was mainly white women and black Americans who had the highest rate of conversions.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Sobering stuff. 13 days. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11996329/Paris-attacks-Isil-have-shown-their-mastery-of-the-full-spectrum-of-terrorism.html
    Since Oct 31, Isil has destroyed a Russian passenger plane over Egypt, wrecked a street in Beirut using two suicide bombers, and brought terror to Paris by carrying out near simultaneous assaults on at least six separate targets across the capital.

    If its claims are true, Isil has carried out three complex acts of mass murder in three different countries – spread across two continents - in less than a fortnight. Along the way, its terrorists have killed 393 people from nations as disparate as Lebanon, Ukraine, France and Russia.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''The Tory print media will have a field day with Khan and his Islamic connections
    Londoners are pretty tolerant but they are not gormless enough to elect a Muslim mayor in a craven attempt at appeasing Muslims ..''

    And of course there's no way the vast majority of moderate muslims in London will support a mayor with radical connections.....ahem.....

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,013

    JackW said:

    Hillary Clinton Will Be The Forty Fifth President Of The United States

    HCWBTFFPOTUS

    Don't know whether to rejoice at the US having their first female President of the US - or weep at how poor an example of the gender America will have chosen....
    Or that she's been chosen in large part because she's her husband's wife?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Mr. Jessop, there's a suggestion a couple may have escaped.

    There is definitely a discrepancy between the figures - 7 stated by the authorities, 8 by ISIL.
    Maybe ISIL have also entered the "disinformation" game
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    JackW said:

    Hillary Clinton Will Be The Forty Fifth President Of The United States

    HCWBTFFPOTUS

    Don't know whether to rejoice at the US having their first female President of the US - or weep at how poor an example of the gender America will have chosen....
    Or that she's been chosen in large part because she's her husband's wife?
    I actively dislike Hilary, but to be honest, she was always going to graduate to high political office, with or without Bill.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    taffys said:

    ''The Tory print media will have a field day with Khan and his Islamic connections
    Londoners are pretty tolerant but they are not gormless enough to elect a Muslim mayor in a craven attempt at appeasing Muslims ..''

    And of course there's no way the vast majority of moderate muslims in London will support a mayor with radical connections.....ahem.....

    Yes, I remember in 2008 blacks would not vote for Obama because Clinton was the "black" candidate. It only lasted until New Hampshire.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I note we are talking about the possible political implications of Friday night on the London mayoral.

    Have we been given the official go ahead from Islington to talk about the impact on politics yet? Or is it still Too Early???
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Roger, some people really do hold the views you mentioned about video games.

    I've heard of senior US politicians wanting to ban the depiction of real life guns in video games because they encourage violence (whilst simultaneously refusing to have any kind of restriction on actual guns in the real world). Australia is also very censorious on video games (the reason the drugs in Fallout have made up names is because Australia banned Fallout 3, initially, when morphine was named as such).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362

    JackW said:

    Hillary Clinton Will Be The Forty Fifth President Of The United States

    HCWBTFFPOTUS

    Don't know whether to rejoice at the US having their first female President of the US - or weep at how poor an example of the gender America will have chosen....
    Or that she's been chosen in large part because she's her husband's wife?
    On that basis I'd rather have Michelle Obama.... She always strikes me as having at least as much about her as her husband.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Mark, I'd also rather have Michelle. Ahem.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,535
    Roger said:

    Malmesbury



    "Even without a madrass education, in an Islamic country a child would be expected to be a devote, practicing Muslim from the time he could start to communicate. "

    But all the recent outrages (probably including the most recent) were carried out by people who were not brought up in Muslim countries or with an Islamic education.

    My post about video games was not meant to be taken seriously. (It obviously hit a nerve-didn't realize how many posters were into them!) but my point was the one that Janet Daley makes when she says of the Paris outrage "it was simply carried out for the sheer nihilistic thrill of it."

    The people that ISIL are trying to emulate, carried out their attacks on Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land in a spirit of religious enthusiasm, blood lust & financial gratification.

    The reason that people picked up on the video game comment, is that once again, people see a silly attempt to ignore the truth of what happened. Muslims murdered a bunch of people, because their version of Islam tells them to do this.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited 2015 15
    Douglas Murray's 2p http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/will-politicians-finally-admit-that-the-paris-attacks-had-something-to-do-with-islam/
    In France, Britain, Germany, America and nearly every other country in the world it remains government policy to say that any and all attacks carried out in the name of Mohammed have ‘nothing to do with Islam’.

    ... Yet today our political class fuels both cause and nascent effect. Because the truth is there for all to see. To claim that people who punish people by killing them for blaspheming Islam while shouting ‘Allah is greatest’ has ‘nothing to do with Islam’ is madness. Because the violence of the Islamists is, truthfully, only to do with Islam: the worst version of Islam, certainly, but Islam nonetheless.
This discussion has been closed.