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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » We can’t assume that the next CON leader will enjoy the sam

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  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    I can't understand why people are saying too much of the T in the Park info has been redacted. Nothing wrong with this...
    Hi Fiona,

    [REDACTED]

    If you require any further information please let me know.

    Regards
    Geoff
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    malcolmg said:

    Nobody gives a monkeys chuff if someone has been in the Services.

    Corbyn is today having to justify whether he is a patriot or not. Do you think he'd be in that position if he'd served in Afghanistan or Iraq?

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited 2015 29

    The Conservatives could elect the resurrected corpse of Margaret Thatcher and she'd still be less unpopular than Corbyn will be come the election.

    In any case, Cameron's favourability ratings aren't greatly ahead of his colleagues. He's behind Boris (though I think Boris' ratings would drop were he thought of in the context as a possible PM rather than London mayor), and only 10% ahead of Osborne - and it probably won't be Osborne.

    Only 10% ahead of Osborne?!?! A 10% differential is enough to entirely swing the result of an election.

    PBTories often baffle me, but this idea that Osborne is some wildly popular giant who the public would adore if he became leader has been particularly odd. I know people IRL who aren't that interested in politics but who absolutely detest him, say they'd want to punch him if they met him, etc.

    And as Brown found out, while being seen as "competent" might be enough to be Chancellor, a popular party leader these days needs to be likeable, no ifs no buts.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    DF Response to Information Request - T in the Park
    Alan

    [REDACTED]

    Thanks
    Malcolm
    Nothing to see here... Literally
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited 2015 29
    DF Response to Information Request - T in the Park
    Malcolm

    [REDACTED]

    Tony
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    They could have saved a lot of black ink if they had just sent blank pages..

    oil might also have been cheaper
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    This is absolutely gripping stuff
    Hi Tony,

    I've had a look at all the papers regarding DFC's request and Eileen and I have had a chat about it.

    [REDACTED]

    [REDACTED]

    [REDACTED]

    [REDACTED]

    Let me know if you want to discuss further.
    Kind regards
    Hannah
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited 2015 29
    Why does Newsnight think that Zoe Williams from the Guardian is an expert on anything?
    "of course there is a magic money tree..."

    https://twitter.com/matthewsephton/status/648740334504177664

    Wrongly described here as a Labour spokesman although she is always pro Labour.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    watford30 said:

    Re The Army and being told what to do..Deep field forces are not told what to do.. they act upon their own intelligence and decide what is the best way to achieve an objective..just what an MP should be doing..

    malcolm's frame of reference, are the actions of his fellow obsequious Nat foot soldiers, blindly plodding along behind their one true leader.
    I had Malc down as more of a free thinker , released from the shackles of party cult tendencies. You live and learn..
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    This is all very amusing.
    Scott_P said:

    DF Response to Information Request - T in the Park

    Malcolm

    [REDACTED]

    Tony
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Danny565 said:

    The Conservatives could elect the resurrected corpse of Margaret Thatcher and she'd still be less unpopular than Corbyn will be come the election.

    In any case, Cameron's favourability ratings aren't greatly ahead of his colleagues. He's behind Boris (though I think Boris' ratings would drop were he thought of in the context as a possible PM rather than London mayor), and only 10% ahead of Osborne - and it probably won't be Osborne.

    Only 10% ahead of Osborne?!?! A 10% differential is enough to entirely swing the result of an election.

    PBTories often baffle me, but this idea that Osborne is some wildly popular giant who the public would adore if he became leader has been particularly odd. I know people IRL who aren't that interested in politics but who absolutely detest him, say they'd want to punch him if they met him, etc.

    And as Brown found out, while being seen as "competent" might be enough to be Chancellor, a popular party leader these days needs to be likeable, no ifs no buts.
    Who are the PBTories that are wildly pro Osborne? TSE maybe but not I. There are very few.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    RE: T in the Park

    [REDACTED]

    Hope this helps

    Alan
    ...and the reply...
    Alan

    [REDACTED]

    Malcolm
    Nothing dodgy going on here, at all. Move along. These are not the emails you are looking for
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    edited 2015 29
    Danny565 said:


    PBTories often baffle me, but this idea that Osborne is some wildly popular giant who the public would adore if he became leader has been particularly odd. I know people IRL who aren't that interested in politics but who absolutely detest him, say they'd want to punch him if they met him, etc.

    Osborne is an odd one.

    On the one hand he's reduced my personal taxes, and I think the £1000 interest free on savings is a great solution that does away with ISA wrappers etc for a great many people, the changes to stamp duty and lowering of corp tax are also very positive.

    On the other he's underwriting Chinese investment into Hinkley whilst the price of energy has completely tanked. I assume this was all agreed in principal when oil was ~ $100 a barrel and it would be at the cost of considerable diplomatic relations to undo the commitment. Current china/SSI optics don't look great either.

    If the choice is Osborne vs Corbyn I think I'll plump for Osborne tho.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,013
    Jonathan said:

    The Conservatives could elect the resurrected corpse of Margaret Thatcher and she'd still be less unpopular than Corbyn will be come the election.

    In any case, Cameron's favourability ratings aren't greatly ahead of his colleagues. He's behind Boris (though I think Boris' ratings would drop were he thought of in the context as a possible PM rather than London mayor), and only 10% ahead of Osborne - and it probably won't be Osborne.

    Tories need to remember that while 37% was enough to win the election, even with Cameron its still a long way from being popular.

    At present, flattered by FPTP like Labour in 2005, they are displaying signs of hubris.
    It's 6% off a landslide, with a 2015 UKIP share of 13% to go at.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited 2015 29

    As a self employed person I'm interested to hear Corbyn's plans but reserve the right to say they are total bollox. The maternity/paternity pay thing, for example, is totally unworkable, an administrative nightmare.

    Well you can as your own employer give yourself the right to as much paid leave as the funds in your business permit although customers will stop paying when no work is being done.....
    But you could try joining a union and have them picket your own house to ensure your business is even more impaired. But just as unions helped drive out ship building and the mines, to have them target the self employed could finish off the country.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    JackW said:

    Tis time for the latest JackW black spot to be officially presented :

    Jeremy Corbyn Will Never Be First Lord Of The Treasury.

    JCWNBFLOTT.
    Rolls of the tongue. :D
    May be we should use JC-FLOP as an approved phonetic abbreviation?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,548


    Sorry, but this is bollocks.

    Careful, you'll set off the compilers of the PB all-women shortlist of those who are above criticism, contradiction and challenge.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Re: T IN THE PARK - DF CONCERTS' APPROACH FOR FUNDING SUPPORT

    Thanks David,

    [REDACTED]

    Thanks
    Malcolm

    RE: T IN THE PARK - DF CONCERTS' APPROACH FOR FUNDING SUPPORT

    Ewan/Malcolm

    Thanks for copying me in. [REDACTED]

    [REDACTED]

    David
    Malcy was right, reading the FOI docs makes it absolutely clear there is nothing untoward going on. I can't believe what all the fuss is about...
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited 2015 29
    More on rail nationalisation http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/sep/29/labour-conference-jeremy-corbyns-speech-politics-live
    Jeremy Corbyn unveils his first official policy since becoming leader of the Labour Party, with plans for a “People’s Railway” under which his government would fast-track a renationalisation of England’s rail network.

  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Policy wonk who faces losing his main customer (Labour) tries to pitch for some business from the Lib Dems...
    http://www.libdemvoice.org/rediscovering-grimonds-insights-47705.html
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    As a self employed person I'm interested to hear Corbyn's plans but reserve the right to say they are total bollox. The maternity/paternity pay thing, for example, is totally unworkable, an administrative nightmare.

    Well you can as your own employer give yourself the right to as much paid leave as the funds in your business permit although customers will stop paying when no work is being done.....
    But you could try joining a union and have them picket your own house to ensure your business is even more impaired. But just as unions helped drive out ship building and the mines, to have them target the self employed could finish off the country.
    I don't understand the gist of that, but self employed people declare as little as poss, would be interesting to see the discrepancies when paternity pay is being claimed.

  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    Labour are talking too much about policy. Its far too early in the parliament and it will tie them up in knots. An Opposition should oppose.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Being a Chancellor who is having to eliminate an inherited £150bn deficit is never going to be a popular task for anyone, the fact that his net ratings aren't even worse is a relative positive for Osborne.

    That would be an excellent point had he actually reduced the deficit. As it is the Tories have been giving out sweets like an amiable uncle at Christmas. They have even been offering subsidised savings products to the retired. One might wonder why this profligacy hasn't bought a few more friends.
    2009/10 deficit £156.3 billion
    2015/16 deficit £69.5 billion

    Reduction in the deficit: £86.8 billion.

    You'll have to explain how reducing the deficit by £86.8 billion is not actually reducing the deficit.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    alex. said:

    Any word on whether Corbyn is going to come on to a background theme song? "Imagine" would be the obvious choice.

    As you can see, I've gone for Happy Talk, the Captain Sensible version
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    PeterC said:

    Labour are talking too much about policy. Its far too early in the parliament and it will tie them up in knots. An Opposition should oppose.

    An opposition should oppose yes but just opposing everything without providing an alternative (ie the Ed Miliband policy) doesn't work either.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    The Times reports yougov today has the public placing Corbyn at -80 on a left to right scale more extreme than Cameron on +53 and even Farage on +62

    Left is negative; right is positive; the Times is a newspaper of record.
    Bit like maths, really: as you move leftwards on the axis the numbers get lower and then BANG! Crossover!

    Perhaps you should blame the Greeks?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    malcolmg said:

    There was a debate on FPT about Dan Jarvis and whether being a Services man would be a vote winner with the selectorate - well according to Ms Sylvester the The Labour Friends of the Forces stall has been abandoned.

    The one next door campaigning for banning fur sales is buzzing. Oh and the free conference magazine has a cartoon of Corbyn rising phoenix like from the burning corpse of Tony Blair. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4570406.ece

    Nobody gives a monkeys chuff if someone has been in the Services. It is a career choice and nothing else, does not make them special. Just means they are happy to be told what to do and when to do it.
    What a nice rounded soul you are
  • PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 666

    More on rail nationalisation http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/sep/29/labour-conference-jeremy-corbyns-speech-politics-live

    Jeremy Corbyn unveils his first official policy since becoming leader of the Labour Party, with plans for a “People’s Railway” under which his government would fast-track a renationalisation of England’s rail network.

    Plato - Can you not copy entire entries from live blogs, or a majority of the entry.

    We get copyright infrignment notices when you do things like that.

    In future just copy a small portion and a link.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    @PBModerator Okidoki
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750



    I don't understand the gist of that, but self employed people declare as little as poss, would be interesting to see the discrepancies when paternity pay is being claimed.

    What's the situation regarding tax credits and self employed people... I can see that one being a mahoosive COI !
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788
    Pulpstar said:



    I don't understand the gist of that, but self employed people declare as little as poss, would be interesting to see the discrepancies when paternity pay is being claimed.

    What's the situation regarding tax credits and self employed people... I can see that one being a mahoosive COI !
    SE people can claim tax credits it's generally best to be low on income so higher tax credits

    Seems to reverse when they want a mortgage however...ho hum.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    edited 2015 29
    TOPPING said:

    :smiley:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/sep/29/labour-conference-jeremy-corbyns-speech-politics-live

    Some extracts have been released in advance. Here’s Patrick Wintour’s preview story, and here’s how it starts.

    Edit: snipped

    He will say: “It is because I am driven by these British majority values, because I love this country, that I want to rid it of injustice to make it more fair, more decent, more equal.”

    Corbyn’s avowal of his love for his country will be seen as a riposte to criticisms following his decision not to sing the national anthem at the Battle of Britain commemoration ceremony.
    John_M said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    So a Lab LotO at his first conference finds it necessary to affirm the love he has for his country.

    Le Roi est mort...vive le Roi...

    Yes - it's a bit like someone having to protest their honesty. If they have to keep doing it, then you know they're not.

    When I look at England I feel...respect.

    Good morning all. I shall await the ramblings of the Dear Leader with bated breath.
    Obviously the phrase "British majority values" has been chosen quite carefully.

    I'm sure it means he doesn't share the values of the far right or the, um, loony left. But many will be scratching their heads trying to work out what on earth it does mean. And what values of which minority he is excluding.

    He has even managed to turn something relatively simple (if nebulous, admittedly) into a trap for himself.


    This is an interesting point. Perhaps we should have a go at defining whose values JC doesn't share. On second thoughts that might be toooooo open, what about those whose values JC is on the record as sharing. I'll kick it off with some easy ones - IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah, Militant, Marxists, Trots, CND ....
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Whilst this is all hypothetical - what about directors of a limited company with only one employee? Would they count as self-employed?

    I'm just reminded of the daft company pension scheme thingy @Richard_Nabavi raised a while ago.

    Pulpstar said:



    I don't understand the gist of that, but self employed people declare as little as poss, would be interesting to see the discrepancies when paternity pay is being claimed.

    What's the situation regarding tax credits and self employed people... I can see that one being a mahoosive COI !
    SE people can claim tax credits it's generally best to be low on income so higher tax credits

    Seems to reverse when they want a mortgage however...ho hum.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Osborne isn't liked because Chancellors are never liked (They take away my money). IF (and it is a big if) he balances the books by 2020 then he'll walk it due to his perceived competence. (And don't forget other demographics/ constituency changes/ SNP trashing Scotland over the next 4 years)
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited 2015 29
    Topping... Any business..be it a major one like car making or even an SME will have an objective set..and the manager on a shop floor does not tell the workers on the assembly line what to do all day.. they are trained to do their jobs and they get on with it .... same in the military..
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    More on rail nationalisation http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/sep/29/labour-conference-jeremy-corbyns-speech-politics-live

    Jeremy Corbyn unveils his first official policy since becoming leader of the Labour Party, with plans for a “People’s Railway” under which his government would fast-track a renationalisation of England’s rail network.

    British Rail were terrible. If the current woes and ineptitude of Network Rail are any indication of the future performance of a renationalised railway, one has to ask if Corbyn is on a retainer from the road and car manufacturing lobby?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788
    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 14 mins14 minutes ago

    Corbyn will promise in his speech to give the self-employed access to maternity, paternity and sick pay http://bit.ly/1iHcYjG

    I wonder how the state will be able to check sick days from the self-employed??

    That'll be fun..
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    The Sturgeon numbers are interesting- and presumably even worse with Scotland (where her ratings remain very good) removed. That would make 2020 coalition negotiations interesting - a -18 allying with a -19 (or worse, in England)

    It shows the danger of reading too much into one number.

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788
    Looks like the #magicmoneytree is going viral.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,136
    Mr. Slackbladder, it's crackers.

    Not only that, say someone's unemployed. Then designates themselves as self-employed (as a writer, say) and immediately takes parental leave. Instant extra money from the state?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,013
    Danny565 said:

    The Conservatives could elect the resurrected corpse of Margaret Thatcher and she'd still be less unpopular than Corbyn will be come the election.

    In any case, Cameron's favourability ratings aren't greatly ahead of his colleagues. He's behind Boris (though I think Boris' ratings would drop were he thought of in the context as a possible PM rather than London mayor), and only 10% ahead of Osborne - and it probably won't be Osborne.

    Only 10% ahead of Osborne?!?! A 10% differential is enough to entirely swing the result of an election.

    PBTories often baffle me, but this idea that Osborne is some wildly popular giant who the public would adore if he became leader has been particularly odd. I know people IRL who aren't that interested in politics but who absolutely detest him, say they'd want to punch him if they met him, etc.

    And as Brown found out, while being seen as "competent" might be enough to be Chancellor, a popular party leader these days needs to be likeable, no ifs no buts.
    Leadership ratings do not necessarily translate directly across to party VI shares. A 10% differential would be a massive VI swing but switching from Cameron to Osborne would in all likelihood produce a much smaller effect (albeit enough of one to have denied a majority at the last election).

    And Brown might have been viewed as competent in 2007 but he wasn't by 2010.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    edited 2015 29

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 14 mins14 minutes ago

    Corbyn will promise in his speech to give the self-employed access to maternity, paternity and sick pay http://bit.ly/1iHcYjG

    I wonder how the state will be able to check sick days from the self-employed??

    That'll be fun..

    What the actual - that's bonkers. Tax credits as I've just raised are bad enough, but I thought Corbyn wanted to increase tax revenue.

    Perhaps Corbyn wants self employed people's vote. Cos it looks like he doesn't want their money !!
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    DavidL said:

    On topic I think that Cameron has been consistently underestimated as a leader, as a campaigner and as a PM. It is inevitable that the Tory appeal will be diminished without him.

    A Labour party offering a serious choice and a credible platform would have had an excellent chance in 2020. The economy will simply not perform with the consistency that it did in 2010-2015. The road is going to get bumpier and this will diminish Osborne's standing along with the government's lead in competence (or at least it would all other things being equal).

    But Labour have not chosen this path. They have chosen Corbyn and McDonnell. This means, Major like, pretty much any of the top Tories will lead them to a modest and slightly unenthusiastic victory in 2020. In fact, on reflection, that analogy is very unfair to Neil Kinnock. Whether Labour can then recover for 2025 depends upon the ability of their membership to learn painful but necessary lessons.

    I agree that you're very unkind to Kinnock especially in the Corbyn context. Kinnock played a central role in ridding the Labour party of the influence of such as Corbyn and is (used to be?) much respected for it within the Labour party.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256


    But you could try joining a union and have them picket your own house to ensure your business is even more impaired. But just as unions helped drive out ship building and the mines, to have them target the self employed could finish off the country.

    :) The saddest thing is that I could believe that they would do it ...
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    TOPPING said:

    :smiley:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/sep/29/labour-conference-jeremy-corbyns-speech-politics-live

    Some extracts have been released in advance. Here’s Patrick Wintour’s preview story, and here’s how it starts.

    Edit: snipped

    He will say: “It is because I am driven by these British majority values, because I love this country, that I want to rid it of injustice to make it more fair, more decent, more equal.”

    Corbyn’s avowal of his love for his country will be seen as a riposte to criticisms following his decision not to sing the national anthem at the Battle of Britain commemoration ceremony.
    John_M said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    So a Lab LotO at his first conference finds it necessary to affirm the love he has for his country.

    Le Roi est mort...vive le Roi...

    Yes - it's a bit like someone having to protest their honesty. If they have to keep doing it, then you know they're not.

    When I look at England I feel...respect.

    Good morning all. I shall await the ramblings of the Dear Leader with bated breath.
    Obviously the phrase "British majority values" has been chosen quite carefully.

    I'm sure it means he doesn't share the values of the far right or the, um, loony left. But many will be scratching their heads trying to work out what on earth it does mean. And what values of which minority he is excluding.

    He has even managed to turn something relatively simple (if nebulous, admittedly) into a trap for himself.


    "British majority values"?

    OK, Brace yourselves ladies and gentlemen, we're about to pass through a severe patch of weaselly words. Hopefully it will soon be over, and we'll be able to return to straight talking and honest politics.

    On topic: I don't have to like my leaders, I merely have to trust them to have the country's interests at heart.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788

    Mr. Slackbladder, it's crackers.

    Not only that, say someone's unemployed. Then designates themselves as self-employed (as a writer, say) and immediately takes parental leave. Instant extra money from the state?

    Also there are very strict rules on what someone can and can't do whilst on maternty/paternaty leave. How is that going to be enforced?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    chestnut said:

    malcolmg said:

    Nobody gives a monkeys chuff if someone has been in the Services.

    Corbyn is today having to justify whether he is a patriot or not. Do you think he'd be in that position if he'd served in Afghanistan or Iraq?

    I think he might have served, but on whose side?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750

    Mr. Slackbladder, it's crackers.

    Not only that, say someone's unemployed. Then designates themselves as self-employed (as a writer, say) and immediately takes parental leave. Instant extra money from the state?

    Also there are very strict rules on what someone can and can't do whilst on maternty/paternaty leave. How is that going to be enforced?
    There'll be dancing in the aisles of PWC if Corbyn gets in xD
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited 2015 29
    I'm getting really confused - Lisa Nandy is now saying Labour doesn't want to nationalise energy firms - but wants communities to own their local one instead, or something called *democratised energy* DT live
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,136
    Mr. Slackbladder, either it won't, or a chap/lady will have a government inspector living with them for several weeks :p

    Also, I'm not sure 'British majority values' [clunky phrase] includes abolition of the monarchy, unilateralism, and a refusal to sing the national anthem.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    weejonnie said:

    Osborne isn't liked because Chancellors are never liked (They take away my money). IF (and it is a big if) he balances the books by 2020 then he'll walk it due to his perceived competence. (And don't forget other demographics/ constituency changes/ SNP trashing Scotland over the next 4 years)

    I'm not sure that's right, or not the whole story. Gordon Brown and John Major were popular, weren't they? Ed Balls, on the other hand, was not, despite being only shadow Chancellor.

    My own prejudices lead me to blame the rise of the SpAdocracy and more particularly, centrally imposed candidates. We now have a generation of politicians who have never had to do grassroots politics in order to be selected for safe seats and as a result often show no particular talent for basic political tradecraft, like making speeches or just getting on with people.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    John_M said:

    TOPPING said:

    :smiley:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/sep/29/labour-conference-jeremy-corbyns-speech-politics-live

    Some extracts have been released in advance. Here’s Patrick Wintour’s preview story, and here’s how it starts.

    Edit: snipped

    He will say: “It is because I am driven by these British majority values, because I love this country, that I want to rid it of injustice to make it more fair, more decent, more equal.”

    Corbyn’s avowal of his love for his country will be seen as a riposte to criticisms following his decision not to sing the national anthem at the Battle of Britain commemoration ceremony.
    John_M said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    So a Lab LotO at his first conference finds it necessary to affirm the love he has for his country.

    Le Roi est mort...vive le Roi...

    Yes - it's a bit like someone having to protest their honesty. If they have to keep doing it, then you know they're not.

    When I look at England I feel...respect.

    Good morning all. I shall await the ramblings of the Dear Leader with bated breath.
    Obviously the phrase "British majority values" has been chosen quite carefully.

    I'm sure it means he doesn't share the values of the far right or the, um, loony left. But many will be scratching their heads trying to work out what on earth it does mean. And what values of which minority he is excluding.

    He has even managed to turn something relatively simple (if nebulous, admittedly) into a trap for himself.
    "British majority values"?

    OK, Brace yourselves ladies and gentlemen, we're about to pass through a severe patch of weaselly words. Hopefully it will soon be over, and we'll be able to return to straight talking and honest politics.

    On topic: I don't have to like my leaders, I merely have to trust them to have the country's interests at heart.

    'British Majority values' don't include cuddling up to the IRA and Hamas.

    Corbyn's about to do a 'Palmer'.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,238
    edited 2015 29
    MUCH more importantly, for anyone who noticed the Ronnie Pickering thing, this is v funny. For those who didn't, you need to get out more to the real world...!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iifQBvbzaqQ
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Betfair Sportsbook have reviewed my account and decided I'm not eligible for promotions in the future !
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256


    And Brown might have been viewed as competent in 2007 but he wasn't by 2010.

    I never viewed Brown as a competent chancellor and I was always amazed that anybody thought otherwise. He always came across to me as an insecure person who shouted down (and crushed) anyone who questioned anything he said or did.

    Given that politics is about influencing people rather than smashing them flat, I never expected much from him as a leader. All I can assume is that the red-tinted glasses in effect and Labour would rather have anyone of theirs in charge, even if the outcome was a predictable mess.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,238
    watford30 said:

    More on rail nationalisation http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/sep/29/labour-conference-jeremy-corbyns-speech-politics-live

    Jeremy Corbyn unveils his first official policy since becoming leader of the Labour Party, with plans for a “People’s Railway” under which his government would fast-track a renationalisation of England’s rail network.

    British Rail were terrible. If the current woes and ineptitude of Network Rail are any indication of the future performance of a renationalised railway, one has to ask if Corbyn is on a retainer from the road and car manufacturing lobby?

    That's both right and wrong. BR was terrible in many ways, but towards the end it was doing quite a good job with the money it was given. Basically, they were allowed to get on with the job with minimal political interference.

    I doubt that BR would have been able to cope with the massive rise in traffic levels, or even that the traffic increase would have occurred. It was institutionally wed to managing a declining network: the singling of many lines that are now being expensively redoubled being a classic example. Privatisation has given the industry a hunger to expand.

    NR is doing a very poor job at upgrades, and sadly this is having a negative effect on its core bread-and-butter maintenance work, yet alone its reputation. Advocates of renationalisation seem keen to ignore NR's current woes.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,136
    Mr. Pulpstar, serves you right for being competent at betting, you rotter.

    My sympathies.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @NickPalmer

    One important point: buying posh cufflinks is not "investing' it's "spending".

    This may go some way towards explaining Labour's difficulties with a balanced budget.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    edited 2015 29

    PeterC said:

    Labour are talking too much about policy. Its far too early in the parliament and it will tie them up in knots. An Opposition should oppose.

    An opposition should oppose yes but just opposing everything without providing an alternative (ie the Ed Miliband policy) doesn't work either.
    Point taken, but they are getting into detail such as tax rates, paternity pay for the self-employed etc. Its like the Dutch auction you expect six months before an election, not the philosophical approach appropriate to the five months after one.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    watford30 said:

    More on rail nationalisation http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/sep/29/labour-conference-jeremy-corbyns-speech-politics-live

    Jeremy Corbyn unveils his first official policy since becoming leader of the Labour Party, with plans for a “People’s Railway” under which his government would fast-track a renationalisation of England’s rail network.

    British Rail were terrible. If the current woes and ineptitude of Network Rail are any indication of the future performance of a renationalised railway, one has to ask if Corbyn is on a retainer from the road and car manufacturing lobby?

    might that not conflict with his retainer from the unions?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256


    I wonder how the state will be able to check sick days from the self-employed??

    That'll be fun..

    State paid informers will keep everything straight and the local Peoples' Militia Committee will sort out detractors and traitors

    Corbyn's time in the GDR was not wasted :D
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    On topic: You can't look at the messenger in isolation from the message. You don't need to be a political genius to figure out what the Conservative message in 2020 is going to be, in fact they are already repeating it ad nauseam and will continue to do so for the next five years.

    Thus, since the message is going to be one of stability, continuity and security, the next leader will be someone who can embody that message. That puts Osborne at a considerable advantage (and Boris at a considerable, probably fatal, disadvantage). At the very least I think we can be pretty sure that the next leader will be either Osborne, or Osborne-approved - perhaps one of his protegés - and that (because of the importance of continuity to the political message) he or she will be someone who is currently in the cabinet. He or she may, however, not be one of the obvious names.

    Of course, all the above assumes that the referendum is won by the In side. If not, all bets are off and you need to look at whichever senior Conservative led the Out side. Owen Paterson at odds of 80/1 or 66/1 (or more on the Betfair Next PM market) remains value.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 14 mins14 minutes ago

    Corbyn will promise in his speech to give the self-employed access to maternity, paternity and sick pay http://bit.ly/1iHcYjG

    I wonder how the state will be able to check sick days from the self-employed??

    That'll be fun..

    same as they do for the employed - self certification
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    PeterC said:

    PeterC said:

    Labour are talking too much about policy. Its far too early in the parliament and it will tie them up in knots. An Opposition should oppose.

    An opposition should oppose yes but just opposing everything without providing an alternative (ie the Ed Miliband policy) doesn't work either.
    Point taken, but they are getting into detail such as tax rates, paternity pay for the self-employed etc. Its like the Dutch auction you expect six months before an election, not the philosophical approach appropriate to the five months after one.
    I agree they've jumped from one extreme to another. Though who can be surprised that Corbyn is acting extreme?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 14 mins14 minutes ago

    Corbyn will promise in his speech to give the self-employed access to maternity, paternity and sick pay http://bit.ly/1iHcYjG

    I wonder how the state will be able to check sick days from the self-employed??

    That'll be fun..

    Sounds like the Viv Nicholson approach to politics. :)
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Of course, all the above assumes that the referendum is won by the In side. If not, all bets are off ...

    Although I am a moderate BOO-er, I had always assumed that "In" would win by a reasonable margin. These days I am beginning to think that "Out" has the edge. If a coherent fiscal and business case can be put today for "Out" then "In" is toast thanks to the mishandling of the migration situation.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,817

    On topic: You can't look at the messenger in isolation from the message. You don't need to be a political genius to figure out what the Conservative message in 2020 is going to be, in fact they are already repeating it ad nauseam and will continue to do so for the next five years.

    Thus, since the message is going to be one of stability, continuity and security, the next leader will be someone who can embody that message. That puts Osborne at a considerable advantage (and Boris at a considerable, probably fatal, disadvantage). At the very least I think we can be pretty sure that the next leader will be either Osborne, or Osborne-approved - perhaps one of his protegés - and that (because of the importance of continuity to the political message) he or she will be someone who is currently in the cabinet. He or she may, however, not be one of the obvious names.

    Of course, all the above assumes that the referendum is won by the In side. If not, all bets are off and you need to look at whichever senior Conservative led the Out side. Owen Paterson at odds of 80/1 or 66/1 (or more on the Betfair Next PM market) remains value.

    Change vs. More of the Same.

    'twas ever thus.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    According to reports - Corbyn has completed 7 u-turns in his short reign so far.

    I can imagine his faithful are feeling a trifle shortchanged right now. Day 17.

    PeterC said:

    PeterC said:

    Labour are talking too much about policy. Its far too early in the parliament and it will tie them up in knots. An Opposition should oppose.

    An opposition should oppose yes but just opposing everything without providing an alternative (ie the Ed Miliband policy) doesn't work either.
    Point taken, but they are getting into detail such as tax rates, paternity pay for the self-employed etc. Its like the Dutch auction you expect six months before an election, not the philosophical approach appropriate to the five months after one.
    I agree they've jumped from one extreme to another. Though who can be surprised that Corbyn is acting extreme?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,238

    More on rail nationalisation http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/sep/29/labour-conference-jeremy-corbyns-speech-politics-live

    Jeremy Corbyn unveils his first official policy since becoming leader of the Labour Party, with plans for a “People’s Railway” under which his government would fast-track a renationalisation of England’s rail network.

    Several things to say about this:

    1) It's incredibly stupid. They've decided on a solution based on ideology - renationalisation - and are setting up a task force to see how it will be done. They are not looking at the problems with the current systems, and do not care about where it currently works (because, obviously, the privatised system cannot work)

    2) They are considering using 'break clauses' to nationalise franchises before those franchises end. This is almost certainly an attempt to make the current government's attempts to let out franchises that end before 2020 more difficult, as anyone bidding would be unsure of their future status.

    3) It sounds as if they are not going to allow private companies to bid for franchises against the state operator. If so, it would be interesting to see how this conflicts with EU law. I'm guessing they don't care.

    4) I hope he mentions freight. The renationalisartion advocates all too often forget freight, and any plan that fails to mention it should not be taken seriously.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 14 mins14 minutes ago

    Corbyn will promise in his speech to give the self-employed access to maternity, paternity and sick pay http://bit.ly/1iHcYjG

    I wonder how the state will be able to check sick days from the self-employed??

    That'll be fun..

    same as they do for the employed - self certification
    Except for the employed those who are "sick" aren't working on their sick days.
    For the self-employed they could be "sick" which still working on their business and claim sick pay for the sick period and then process business receipts for once they're 'healthy' again.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    I'm getting really confused - Lisa Nandy is now saying Labour doesn't want to nationalise energy firms - but wants communities to own their local one instead, or something called *democratised energy* DT live

    The only possible explanation is that they're descendants of Worzel Gummidge and they've been misdirected as to what head to wear
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750

    On topic: You can't look at the messenger in isolation from the message. You don't need to be a political genius to figure out what the Conservative message in 2020 is going to be, in fact they are already repeating it ad nauseam and will continue to do so for the next five years.

    Thus, since the message is going to be one of stability, continuity and security, the next leader will be someone who can embody that message. That puts Osborne at a considerable advantage (and Boris at a considerable, probably fatal, disadvantage). At the very least I think we can be pretty sure that the next leader will be either Osborne, or Osborne-approved - perhaps one of his protegés - and that (because of the importance of continuity to the political message) he or she will be someone who is currently in the cabinet. He or she may, however, not be one of the obvious names.

    Of course, all the above assumes that the referendum is won by the In side. If not, all bets are off and you need to look at whichever senior Conservative led the Out side. Owen Paterson at odds of 80/1 or 66/1 (or more on the Betfair Next PM market) remains value.

    I'd like to find the person that's backed David Miliband at 8.4 tbh.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 14 mins14 minutes ago

    Corbyn will promise in his speech to give the self-employed access to maternity, paternity and sick pay http://bit.ly/1iHcYjG

    I wonder how the state will be able to check sick days from the self-employed??

    That'll be fun..

    same as they do for the employed - self certification
    Except for the employed those who are "sick" aren't working on their sick days.
    For the self-employed they could be "sick" which still working on their business and claim sick pay for the sick period and then process business receipts for once they're 'healthy' again.
    Or going on holiday... whats the chances you have plenty of self-employed sick for a couple of weeks during the summer?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Politics_co_uk: The Labour party will now 'automatically' support all strikes http://t.co/QyG5RnKesM #lab15
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,548
    edited 2015 29
    Charles said:

    @NickPalmer

    One important point: buying posh cufflinks is not "investing' it's "spending".

    This may go some way towards explaining Labour's difficulties with a balanced budget.

    'Buying' cufflinks? Only for nouveaus & Heseltine surely.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819

    ....
    Of course, all the above assumes that the referendum is won by the In side. If not, all bets are off and you need to look at whichever senior Conservative led the Out side. Owen Paterson at odds of 80/1 or 66/1 (or more on the Betfair Next PM market) remains value.

    Damn you noticed Owen. But you should also consider ConHome polling of members showing almost 2:1 in favour of Leave. That polling was very accurate on the Cameron Leadership win in 2005. If it is still accurate, how will a Remain person such as Osborne expect to win more than half the members over? If they see the country's vote has decided to "Remain" the members may well not vote for a europhile Leader.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 14 mins14 minutes ago

    Corbyn will promise in his speech to give the self-employed access to maternity, paternity and sick pay http://bit.ly/1iHcYjG

    I wonder how the state will be able to check sick days from the self-employed??

    That'll be fun..

    same as they do for the employed - self certification
    Except for the employed those who are "sick" aren't working on their sick days.
    For the self-employed they could be "sick" which still working on their business and claim sick pay for the sick period and then process business receipts for once they're 'healthy' again.
    Or going on holiday... whats the chances you have plenty of self-employed sick for a couple of weeks during the summer?
    It's so completely naive and ripe for exploitation. As I said I thought Corbyn wanted to increase Gov't revenues...
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312


    I wonder how the state will be able to check sick days from the self-employed??

    That'll be fun..

    State paid informers will keep everything straight and the local Peoples' Militia Committee will sort out detractors and traitors

    Corbyn's time in the GDR was not wasted :D
    not altogether wasted maybe
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    I want to know, can the self employed sue themselves for sexual harassment?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    On topic, these figures are much better for Osborne/worse for Corbyn when you apply the likely to vote filter

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPVh0rNWEAAAbSG.png
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    edited 2015 29
    OOoh

    @severincarrell: BREAKING: election court judges rule that @acarmichaelmp "self talking" about his ignorance of #nikkileaks memo does meet legal test 1/2

    So @acarmichaelmp complainants win first round victory on Representation of People's act case: now for further hearings 2/2
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,238

    Charles said:

    @NickPalmer

    One important point: buying posh cufflinks is not "investing' it's "spending".

    This may go some way towards explaining Labour's difficulties with a balanced budget.

    'Buying' cufflinks? Only for nouveaus & Heseltine surely.
    that always irritated me, especially as his family made his money from schmutter.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,817
    People are criticising Corbyn's speech in the wrong terms. It's not radically left wing. What we know of it so far is very close to Cameron's leadership speech.

    Patriotism, compassion, the need to change the party, the need to engage the young, to move away from PMQ style politics.

    It's all there.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd like to find the person that's backed David Miliband at 8.4 tbh.

    Yes, and offer him (it's probably a him) some other attractive bets!
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844
    Scott_P said:

    @Politics_co_uk: The Labour party will now 'automatically' support all strikes http://t.co/QyG5RnKesM #lab15

    That has undone any of the positive reaction that his speech may have received yesterday. (Unwarranted positive reaction - but there we go)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    So we could have two North Britain by elections soon.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I see Serwotka is saying Labour is now *well to the Left of the TUC* and clearly delighted.

    And planned waves of strikes in the public sector to show *resistance* - well hmm, I'm sure the Tories will be up for that one.
    Scott_P said:

    @Politics_co_uk: The Labour party will now 'automatically' support all strikes http://t.co/QyG5RnKesM #lab15

  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Of course, all the above assumes that the referendum is won by the In side. If not, all bets are off ...

    Although I am a moderate BOO-er, I had always assumed that "In" would win by a reasonable margin. These days I am beginning to think that "Out" has the edge. If a coherent fiscal and business case can be put today for "Out" then "In" is toast thanks to the mishandling of the migration situation.
    I think the great uncertainty relates to how the migrant crisis evolves. Take out Schengen and, with a bit of spinning, the EU will look less unattractive to loads of people
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,773
    WTF is Lilian Greenwood wearing
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 14 mins14 minutes ago

    Corbyn will promise in his speech to give the self-employed access to maternity, paternity and sick pay http://bit.ly/1iHcYjG

    I wonder how the state will be able to check sick days from the self-employed??

    That'll be fun..

    That implies the abolition of the self employed class of national insurance. Taxes up, in other words.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739

    WTF is Lilian Greenwood wearing

    The world's biggest poppy
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,548
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    @NickPalmer

    One important point: buying posh cufflinks is not "investing' it's "spending".

    This may go some way towards explaining Labour's difficulties with a balanced budget.

    'Buying' cufflinks? Only for nouveaus & Heseltine surely.
    that always irritated me, especially as his family made his money from schmutter.
    It was ridiculously snobbish, but all part of the Clark charivari I suppose.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Pfft on patrotism - he's trying to handwave away his friends who hate us like Argies, IRA and consular staff at the Russian Embassy.
    Jonathan said:

    People are criticising Corbyn's speech in the wrong terms. It's not radically left wing. What we know of it so far is very close to Cameron's leadership speech.

    Patriotism, compassion, the need to change the party, the need to engage the young, to move away from PMQ style politics.

    It's all there.

  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 14 mins14 minutes ago

    Corbyn will promise in his speech to give the self-employed access to maternity, paternity and sick pay http://bit.ly/1iHcYjG

    I wonder how the state will be able to check sick days from the self-employed??

    That'll be fun..

    same as they do for the employed - self certification
    Except for the employed those who are "sick" aren't working on their sick days.
    For the self-employed they could be "sick" which still working on their business and claim sick pay for the sick period and then process business receipts for once they're 'healthy' again.
    I'm gonna have to lie down
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    antifrank said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    So a Lab LotO at his first conference finds it necessary to affirm the love he has for his country.

    Le Roi est mort...vive le Roi...

    Yes - it's a bit like someone having to protest their honesty. If they have to keep doing it, then you know they're not.

    My other half's reaction: "if you love this country then sing the **** national anthem". I doubt he will have been alone in thinking that.
    "The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons." (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739
    I have a cufflink fetish.

    I have like 40 pairs of them.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,739

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    @NickPalmer

    One important point: buying posh cufflinks is not "investing' it's "spending".

    This may go some way towards explaining Labour's difficulties with a balanced budget.

    'Buying' cufflinks? Only for nouveaus & Heseltine surely.
    that always irritated me, especially as his family made his money from schmutter.
    It was ridiculously snobbish, but all part of the Clark charivari I suppose.
    Alan Clark was an inspiration for us all.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    OOoh

    @severincarrell: BREAKING: election court judges rule that @acarmichaelmp "self talking" about his ignorance of #nikkileaks memo does meet legal test 1/2

    So @acarmichaelmp complainants win first round victory on Representation of People's act case: now for further hearings 2/2

    Is there an English translation of this?
  • LucyJonesLucyJones Posts: 651
    Isn't it a bit early for all that? Not even October yet.
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