Biden stories continue to circulate, including some that potential donors are encouraging to enter, but to do so soon rather than leave it much longer. Now a story that his wife has issued the all clear:
A negative for Biden is that MSNBC (ludicrously left wing) reported that his attempts to woo the black Congressional Caucus from supporting Hillary did not go too well.
Carly Fiorina looks like great value at 50/1 on Boylesport's website - the trouble is when I try to place even the most modest of bets, the shutters come crashing down. The next best value is Betfair's nothing like as attractive current price of 25 or 22.8/1 net in old money, but possibly still worth a punt if you believe that latest poll showing her leading the GOP field in New Hampshire and of course betting on the exchange provides an opportunity to trade out if that is one's preferred option. DYOR.
Maybe you should become Peter from Mortlake or Peter from Barnes
I'm impressed by your local knowledge and to be honest you're not far off the mark.
Lived on Dymock Street for a while, the other side of the Hurlingham Club, and distinctly down market from Putney!
Is that near the Wandsworth bridge?
Yes, very close. Heading south on Wandsworth Bridge Road, last road before the bridge to the west (right), then second on the right.
I knew south west London very well in the early to mid 70s, particularly the Bull at Sheen..
Incidentally I'll be up your way next month.
Email me with your dates. I am around the first three weeks but head back to Pakistan the last week. It would be great to meet up. Will you be in DC?
Piggate and journalistic standards. Can anyone remind me how long it has been since we were discussing The Sun's known-to-be-false story about Jeremy Corbyn's £45 conman? Some pb-ers were less censorious.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. -- Groucho Marx
Lord Ashcroft’s story about Cameron and the pig would not have passed the basic standards demanded by a tabloid newspaper
Except the DM is a tabloid.... Perhaps standards have dropped somewhat?
They're serialising a book rather than publishing the story directly themselves.
And what exactly does that change? It is not meant to be a work of fiction. If it contains unproven allegations that lead to libel then the DM is also open to charges for repeating the libel.
It seems like a risky strategy given that all other media outlets are handling it with kid gloves and in the most oblique fashion. Why are they all being so cautious if there is no need?
VW racing has support from the current CEO, bit going by today's chatter his days are seriously numbered. There's a good chance that VW will get sued for billions imna class action suit as well, and have an investigation in the EU and an EU level fine if they are found to be cheating the tests. The new CEO may want to pursue a back to basics strategy of the fines and lawsuits clean them out.
Apparently there will be more revelations tomorrow about drugs and hunting. The mind boggles.
Isabel Oakeshott seems an interesting character. Who would have thought a Sunday Times journalist and Chipping Norton resident would turn out to be a double agent?
Carly Fiorina looks like great value at 50/1 on Boylesport's website - the trouble is when I try to place even the most modest of bets, the shutters come crashing down. The next best value is Betfair's nothing like as attractive current price of 25 or 22.8/1 net in old money, but possibly still worth a punt if you believe that latest poll showing her leading the GOP field in New Hampshire and of course betting on the exchange provides an opportunity to trade out if that is one's preferred option. DYOR.
Maybe you should become Peter from Mortlake or Peter from Barnes
I'm impressed by your local knowledge and to be honest you're not far off the mark.
Lived on Dymock Street for a while, the other side of the Hurlingham Club, and distinctly down market from Putney!
Is that near the Wandsworth bridge?
Yes, very close. Heading south on Wandsworth Bridge Road, last road before the bridge to the west (right), then second on the right.
I knew south west London very well in the early to mid 70s, particularly the Bull at Sheen..
Incidentally I'll be up your way next month.
Email me with your dates. I am around the first three weeks but head back to Pakistan the last week. It would be great to meet up. Will you be in DC?
Piggate and journalistic standards. Can anyone remind me how long it has been since we were discussing The Sun's known-to-be-false story about Jeremy Corbyn's £45 conman? Some pb-ers were less censorious.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. -- Groucho Marx
If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed. -
Lord Ashcroft’s story about Cameron and the pig would not have passed the basic standards demanded by a tabloid newspaper
Except the DM is a tabloid.... Perhaps standards have dropped somewhat?
They're serialising a book rather than publishing the story directly themselves.
And what exactly does that change? It is not meant to be a work of fiction. If it contains unproven allegations that lead to libel then the DM is also open to charges for repeating the libel.
It seems like a risky strategy given that all other media outlets are handling it with kid gloves and in the most oblique fashion. Why are they all being so cautious if there is no need?
It won't go near the libel courts, and if it did, where's the damage? The reasons the other papers aren't joining in might be: 1) it's a non-story 2) Murdoch is pro-Tory 3) they don't want their readers rushing out to buy the Daily Mail.
Lord Ashcroft’s story about Cameron and the pig would not have passed the basic standards demanded by a tabloid newspaper
Except the DM is a tabloid.... Perhaps standards have dropped somewhat?
They're serialising a book rather than publishing the story directly themselves.
And what exactly does that change? It is not meant to be a work of fiction. If it contains unproven allegations that lead to libel then the DM is also open to charges for repeating the libel.
It seems like a risky strategy given that all other media outlets are handling it with kid gloves and in the most oblique fashion. Why are they all being so cautious if there is no need?
Presumably the broadcast media will have issues over whether they can repeat the story for a 'family' audience, quite aside from any legal considerations.
VW racing has support from the current CEO, bit going by today's chatter his days are seriously numbered. There's a good chance that VW will get sued for billions imna class action suit as well, and have an investigation in the EU and an EU level fine if they are found to be cheating the tests. The new CEO may want to pursue a back to basics strategy of the fines and lawsuits clean them out.
Yes, this might all be most unfortunate timing for Red Bull.
I wonder how many other car manufacturers are also using the same, or similar, techniques?
As I've said before, we need independent testing labs for all performance-related metrics used in tests and advertising. Testing labs pick one car at random out of every (say) 100,000 sold from a forecourt and run it through the tests. If any problems are found, more are tested at random.
The car manufacturers have proved time and time again they cannot be trusted, and the fines'll pat for a fair few labs and tests.
I wonder if it's a coincidence that a relative has just forwarded me an email to a petition calling on Cameron to face a vote of no confidence by the Queen and be replaced (it's a bit confused to be honest).
I was most confused to see 'This is not a government that the people voted in majority for', as to my recollection that is indeed what the people just did (and it cannot be a point about the electoral system, or it would say so presumably, as no other party was 'voted in majority for')
Early days, it's not scientific, but the comments on this BBC migrant piece suggest people are not necessarily swayed by the broadcast media coverage: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34311254
Apparently there will be more revelations tomorrow about drugs and hunting. The mind boggles.
Sounds pretty dull - I know people have joked about this pig stuff being the sort of thing you expect from the upper classes, but drugs and hunting stuff is really what they expect.
Apparently there will be more revelations tomorrow about drugs and hunting. The mind boggles.
Sounds pretty dull - I know people have joked about this pig stuff being the sort of thing you expect from the upper classes, but drugs and hunting stuff is really what they expect.
He could have drugged & beheaded Cecil the Lion & the Tories on here would say it's not as bad as Corbyn being a vegetarian and swatting a fly
I wonder if it's a coincidence that a relative has just forwarded me an email to a petition calling on Cameron to face a vote of no confidence by the Queen and be replaced (it's a bit confused to be honest).
I was most confused to see 'This is not a government that the people voted in majority for', as to my recollection that is indeed what the people just did (and it cannot be a point about the electoral system, or it would say so presumably, as no other party was 'voted in majority for')
Obviously whoever drafted it has no idea what they are talking about but it is amusing to see a (presumably) lefty suggesting what looks like an exercise of the Royal Prerogative.
Mr. Isam, perhaps, but it's also the case that those generally opposed to Cameron typically have little problem accepting what may be an entirely untrue allegation against him.
Lord Ashcroft’s story about Cameron and the pig would not have passed the basic standards demanded by a tabloid newspaper
Except the DM is a tabloid.... Perhaps standards have dropped somewhat?
They're serialising a book rather than publishing the story directly themselves.
And what exactly does that change? It is not meant to be a work of fiction. If it contains unproven allegations that lead to libel then the DM is also open to charges for repeating the libel.
It seems like a risky strategy given that all other media outlets are handling it with kid gloves and in the most oblique fashion. Why are they all being so cautious if there is no need?
A PM's position to pursue litigation does make it incredibly difficult I suppose insofar as they could be called in event of court proceedings or I presume so? Bit tricky when still in office because the denial has been tried before and proven well economical with the actual " I did not have relations etc etc...."
Perhaps a boar..ed of enquiry instead to see if someone will squeal?
Apparently there will be more revelations tomorrow about drugs and hunting. The mind boggles.
Sounds pretty dull - I know people have joked about this pig stuff being the sort of thing you expect from the upper classes, but drugs and hunting stuff is really what they expect.
He could have drugged & beheaded Cecil the Lion & the Tories on here would say it's not as bad as Corbyn being a vegetarian and swatting a fly
Someone should remind you of this next time Farage gets a negative story printed about him and you go all defensive.
Mr. Isam, perhaps, but it's also the case that those generally opposed to Cameron typically have little problem accepting what may be an entirely untrue allegation against him.
Why else would Ashcroft bother to write anything other than as a hatchet job? He has no interest in a hagiography. As Mitchell proved when he took out a summons (and when he looked to have a pretty good case) the truth is no guarantee of justice.
Apparently there will be more revelations tomorrow about drugs and hunting. The mind boggles.
Sounds pretty dull - I know people have joked about this pig stuff being the sort of thing you expect from the upper classes, but drugs and hunting stuff is really what they expect.
He could have drugged & beheaded Cecil the Lion & the Tories on here would say it's not as bad as Corbyn being a vegetarian and swatting a fly
Someone should remind you of this next time Farage gets a negative story printed about him and you go all defensive.
Don't worry, it won't be long ...
I'm struggling to think of a story about Farage. There are plenty of Ukip stories - some of which were completely untrue and defamatory.
Apparently there will be more revelations tomorrow about drugs and hunting. The mind boggles.
Sounds pretty dull - I know people have joked about this pig stuff being the sort of thing you expect from the upper classes, but drugs and hunting stuff is really what they expect.
He could have drugged & beheaded Cecil the Lion & the Tories on here would say it's not as bad as Corbyn being a vegetarian and swatting a fly
Someone should remind you of this next time Farage gets a negative story printed about him and you go all defensive.
Don't worry, it won't be long ...
I'm struggling to think of a story about Farage. There are plenty of Ukip stories - some of which were completely untrue and defamatory.
Apparently there will be more revelations tomorrow about drugs and hunting. The mind boggles.
Sounds pretty dull - I know people have joked about this pig stuff being the sort of thing you expect from the upper classes, but drugs and hunting stuff is really what they expect.
He could have drugged & beheaded Cecil the Lion & the Tories on here would say it's not as bad as Corbyn being a vegetarian and swatting a fly
Someone should remind you of this next time Farage gets a negative story printed about him and you go all defensive.
Don't worry, it won't be long ...
I'm struggling to think of a story about Farage. There are plenty of Ukip stories - some of which were completely untrue and defamatory.
'Perhaps it's a case of mistaken identity' says Ashcroft. No response from alleged owner of alleged photograph Vague talk about 'debauched ' parties.... bit only 'in Cameron's day'. ie. Not with him present. Hmmm...
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
My opinion of Lord Ashcroft has greatly diminished today.
Evening all.
His Lordship is wealthy enough not to give a hoot about what others think of him. For Isabel Oakeshott on the other hand, it is her profession so gawd knows why she got herself involved in this tawdry little book.
Apparently there will be more revelations tomorrow about drugs and hunting. The mind boggles.
Sounds pretty dull - I know people have joked about this pig stuff being the sort of thing you expect from the upper classes, but drugs and hunting stuff is really what they expect.
He could have drugged & beheaded Cecil the Lion & the Tories on here would say it's not as bad as Corbyn being a vegetarian and swatting a fly
Someone should remind you of this next time Farage gets a negative story printed about him and you go all defensive.
Don't worry, it won't be long ...
I'm struggling to think of a story about Farage. There are plenty of Ukip stories - some of which were completely untrue and defamatory.
The drugs allegation is hardly dynamite either. "Smoked weed" and "allowed cocaine to circulate at parties at his house" (but no allegation of actually taking cocaine and the actual allegation being impossible to disprove).
Are people really sure Piggate won't have a poitical impact? I don't think people will be morally outraged by it, and I would agree that the "look at how alien those posh boys are" angle is priced in at this point. The real danger is that it makes Cameron look like a laughing stock. His main selling point to people who hate the Tories has been that he's a statesman who "looks the part" on the world stage. Is that reputation going to stand after an endless tirade of pig jokes? Questionable.
Arguably, the biggest factor that undid the Major government was not their nastiness or the 'Black Wednesday' incompetence, but the 'Back to Basics' sex scandals....
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
Are people really sure Piggate won't have a poitical impact? I don't think people will be morally outraged by it, and I would agree that the "look at how alien those posh boys are" angle is priced in at this point. The real danger is that it makes Cameron look like a laughing stock. His main selling point to people who hate the Tories has been that he's a statesman who "looks the part" on the world stage. Is that reputation going to stand after an endless tirade of pig jokes? Questionable.
Arguably, the biggest factor that undid the Major government was not their nastiness or the 'Black Wednesday' incompetence, but the 'Back to Basics' sex scandals....
If it's the only 'weird' allegation that emerges, I don't expect to have a lasting impact - I think the cumulative impact is the key with such things, unless there are other factors seriously dragging the party down at the same time.
Are people really sure Piggate won't have a poitical impact? I don't think people will be morally outraged by it, and I would agree that the "look at how alien those posh boys are" angle is priced in at this point. The real danger is that it makes Cameron look like a laughing stock. His main selling point to people who hate the Tories has been that he's a statesman who "looks the part" on the world stage. Is that reputation going to stand after an endless tirade of pig jokes? Questionable.
Arguably, the biggest factor that undid the Major government was not their nastiness or the 'Black Wednesday' incompetence, but the 'Back to Basics' sex scandals....
It really is outrageous if a lie can destroy someone's reputation. Even if he did sue, the damage is done as his opponents will just believe it happened regardless
Any lawyers know if there is a statute of limitations on libel?
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
Apparently there will be more revelations tomorrow about drugs and hunting. The mind boggles.
Sounds pretty dull - I know people have joked about this pig stuff being the sort of thing you expect from the upper classes, but drugs and hunting stuff is really what they expect.
He could have drugged & beheaded Cecil the Lion & the Tories on here would say it's not as bad as Corbyn being a vegetarian and swatting a fly
Someone should remind you of this next time Farage gets a negative story printed about him and you go all defensive.
Don't worry, it won't be long ...
I am not having a go at Cameron about this in the slightest, couldn't care less, don't think it makes him unfit to be what he currently is, etc etc
Just noting the different standards that apply to each politician depending on whether he or she is one of ours or one of theirs
Cameron in South Africa and Corbyn in East Germany pre political days is the biggest case of double standards in my book.
Reading the comments on social media, having left the office now, some of which are very funny, I wonder if Cameron may feel compelled to take action against Ashcroft/the Mail/the publishers - assuming he was 100% not involved in this - to ensure he doesn't become a figure of fun.
How can he go "out on the stump" if he's going to be forever now plagued with comedy pig references, idiots in pig costumes, oinking, pork references etc?
It's a bit like the fire safety officer in Phoenix Nights with his supposed predilection for canines destroying his credibility and reputation forevermore...
Are people really sure Piggate won't have a poitical impact? I don't think people will be morally outraged by it, and I would agree that the "look at how alien those posh boys are" angle is priced in at this point. The real danger is that it makes Cameron look like a laughing stock. His main selling point to people who hate the Tories has been that he's a statesman who "looks the part" on the world stage. Is that reputation going to stand after an endless tirade of pig jokes? Questionable.
Arguably, the biggest factor that undid the Major government was not their nastiness or the 'Black Wednesday' incompetence, but the 'Back to Basics' sex scandals....
It really is outrageous if a lie can destroy someone's reputation. Even if he did sue, the damage is done as his opponents will just believe it happened regardless
Any lawyers know if there is a statute of limitations on libel?
Are people really sure Piggate won't have a poitical impact? I don't think people will be morally outraged by it, and I would agree that the "look at how alien those posh boys are" angle is priced in at this point. The real danger is that it makes Cameron look like a laughing stock. His main selling point to people who hate the Tories has been that he's a statesman who "looks the part" on the world stage. Is that reputation going to stand after an endless tirade of pig jokes? Questionable.
Arguably, the biggest factor that undid the Major government was not their nastiness or the 'Black Wednesday' incompetence, but the 'Back to Basics' sex scandals....
It really is outrageous if a lie can destroy someone's reputation. Even if he did sue, the damage is done as his opponents will just believe it happened regardless
Any lawyers know if there is a statute of limitations on libel?
Seen from abroad, we have an anti-Semitic leader of the opposition who supports terrorism and a prime minister who has had sexual relations with a dead pig. That's some double whammy.
Apparently there will be more revelations tomorrow about drugs and hunting. The mind boggles.
Sounds pretty dull - I know people have joked about this pig stuff being the sort of thing you expect from the upper classes, but drugs and hunting stuff is really what they expect.
He could have drugged & beheaded Cecil the Lion & the Tories on here would say it's not as bad as Corbyn being a vegetarian and swatting a fly
Someone should remind you of this next time Farage gets a negative story printed about him and you go all defensive.
Don't worry, it won't be long ...
I'm struggling to think of a story about Farage. There are plenty of Ukip stories - some of which were completely untrue and defamatory.
Mr. Sykes, and if he lost [as Mitchell lost], that'd be game over.
I wonder if he'll wait until he's no longer PM, and then sue.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Observer, quite. Except that Corbyn's views are a matter of public record, whereas it's my understanding Cameron does not agree with the Ashcroft account of his past.
Are people really sure Piggate won't have a poitical impact? I don't think people will be morally outraged by it, and I would agree that the "look at how alien those posh boys are" angle is priced in at this point. The real danger is that it makes Cameron look like a laughing stock. His main selling point to people who hate the Tories has been that he's a statesman who "looks the part" on the world stage. Is that reputation going to stand after an endless tirade of pig jokes? Questionable.
Arguably, the biggest factor that undid the Major government was not their nastiness or the 'Black Wednesday' incompetence, but the 'Back to Basics' sex scandals....
It really is outrageous if a lie can destroy someone's reputation. Even if he did sue, the damage is done as his opponents will just believe it happened regardless
Any lawyers know if there is a statute of limitations on libel?
The longer you leave it the more licence you give for it to be repeated.
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
Are people really sure Piggate won't have a poitical impact? I don't think people will be morally outraged by it, and I would agree that the "look at how alien those posh boys are" angle is priced in at this point. The real danger is that it makes Cameron look like a laughing stock. His main selling point to people who hate the Tories has been that he's a statesman who "looks the part" on the world stage. Is that reputation going to stand after an endless tirade of pig jokes? Questionable.
Arguably, the biggest factor that undid the Major government was not their nastiness or the 'Black Wednesday' incompetence, but the 'Back to Basics' sex scandals....
It really is outrageous if a lie can destroy someone's reputation. Even if he did sue, the damage is done as his opponents will just believe it happened regardless
Any lawyers know if there is a statute of limitations on libel?
The longer you leave it the more licence you give for it to be repeated.
Yeah, I assumed that delay would be used against you in court. Being PM maybe somewhat mitigating!
Seen from abroad, we have an anti-Semitic leader of the opposition who supports terrorism and a prime minister who has had sexual relations with a dead pig. That's some double whammy.
Seen from abroad, we have an anti-Semitic leader of the opposition who supports terrorism and a prime minister who has had sexual relations with a dead pig. That's some double whammy.
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
All that was in today's edition. Where's the new gossip?
I'm an idiot. That was yesterday!
My coat, Jeeves.
A libel case from the PM against said suspect MP will be a little tricky, as both figures are very prominent conservatives.
The libel would be against the publishers, surely. Has the source been described as "very prominent"?
The source has not been identified and could deny it. Libel 101 is don't rely on off the record, unattributable briefings, If it did come to court, the defence would presumably be that the book is reporting the rumour, not saying it is true. That is, unless there is proof. Presumably Cameron would have known in advance of today that the story was in the book and would run in the Daily Mail.
Mr. Sykes, and if he lost [as Mitchell lost], that'd be game over.
I wonder if he'll wait until he's no longer PM, and then sue.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Observer, quite. Except that Corbyn's views are a matter of public record, whereas it's my understanding Cameron does not agree with the Ashcroft account of his past.
Whether any of it is true or not is beside the point in terms of forming the impression.
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
All that was in today's edition. Where's the new gossip?
I'm an idiot. That was yesterday!
My coat, Jeeves.
A libel case from the PM against said suspect MP will be a little tricky, as both figures are very prominent conservatives.
The libel would be against the publishers, surely. Has the source been described as "very prominent"?
The source has not been identified and could deny it. Libel 101 is don't rely on off the record, unattributable briefings, If it did come to court, the defence would presumably be that the book is reporting the rumour, not saying it is true. That is, unless there is proof. Presumably Cameron would have known in advance of today that the story was in the book and would run in the Daily Mail.
Wouldn't that defence give them the ability to say anything they want, under the guise of it being a rumour?
Seen from abroad, we have an anti-Semitic leader of the opposition who supports terrorism and a prime minister who has had sexual relations with a dead pig. That's some double whammy.
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
All that was in today's edition. Where's the new gossip?
I'm an idiot. That was yesterday!
My coat, Jeeves.
A libel case from the PM against said suspect MP will be a little tricky, as both figures are very prominent conservatives.
The libel would be against the publishers, surely. Has the source been described as "very prominent"?
Are there many MP's from Oxford, yes. But there are not many MP's who were at Oxford with Cameron and going around in the same places as him, the list is limited.
Suing holds many dangers. For instance, if he sues about the 'pig' allegation, then people will assume that any other allegations are correct (because he isn't bothering suing about them). If he sues for everything that is incorrect, then he stands less chance of winning because there might be one little flaw in the case.
It's going to be interesting to see where this heads.
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
All that was in today's edition. Where's the new gossip?
I'm an idiot. That was yesterday!
My coat, Jeeves.
A libel case from the PM against said suspect MP will be a little tricky, as both figures are very prominent conservatives.
The libel would be against the publishers, surely. Has the source been described as "very prominent"?
The source has not been identified and could deny it. Libel 101 is don't rely on off the record, unattributable briefings, If it did come to court, the defence would presumably be that the book is reporting the rumour, not saying it is true. That is, unless there is proof. Presumably Cameron would have known in advance of today that the story was in the book and would run in the Daily Mail.
Surely that is not a libel defence. If I said there was a rumour Mr Prominent Politician had sex with a young boy during his time in the army, I would definitely be held account for libel if I could not substantiate it.
Reading the comments on social media, having left the office now, some of which are very funny, I wonder if Cameron may feel compelled to take action against Ashcroft/the Mail/the publishers - assuming he was 100% not involved in this - to ensure he doesn't become a figure of fun.
How can he go "out on the stump" if he's going to be forever now plagued with comedy pig references, idiots in pig costumes, oinking, pork references etc?
It's a bit like the fire safety officer in Phoenix Nights with his supposed predilection for canines destroying his credibility and reputation forevermore...
He's stuck with this whatever happens. And there is no amount of money that would worry Ashcroft, should it come to court. Billionaires can basically do whatever they want, as long as it is not criminal.
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
Was the "fair haired person" an MP in June 2014?
He's certainly an MP now.
Perhaps imprecise writing, but Ashcroft appears to suggest that the person in question was an MP in mid-2014, which would rule out one prominent fair haired MP......
Apparently there will be more revelations tomorrow about drugs and hunting. The mind boggles.
Sounds pretty dull - I know people have joked about this pig stuff being the sort of thing you expect from the upper classes, but drugs and hunting stuff is really what they expect.
He could have drugged & beheaded Cecil the Lion & the Tories on here would say it's not as bad as Corbyn being a vegetarian and swatting a fly
Someone should remind you of this next time Farage gets a negative story printed about him and you go all defensive.
Don't worry, it won't be long ...
I'm struggling to think of a story about Farage. There are plenty of Ukip stories - some of which were completely untrue and defamatory.
"In print and online articles in April and May 2013 we said that Alex Wood, who was standing for UKIP in the May 2013 local elections in Somerset, had been photographed making a 'Nazi salute'. We also said that he had made racist comments on Facebook.
We now accept that these allegations were wrong and there is no reason to believe that Mr Wood is a racist or a Nazi. The photograph, one of a series of photographs appearing on his Facebook page, was taken out of context. Mr Wood was reaching out to stop a friend taking a photo on a mobile phone. The comments on Facebook purportedly made by Mr Wood were not made by him and the police have confirmed that they were not made by Mr Wood.
We apologise to Mr Wood for the allegations made and any hurt and distress caused as a result. We hope this apology will go some way to repairing Mr Wood’s reputation.”"
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
All that was in today's edition. Where's the new gossip?
I'm an idiot. That was yesterday!
My coat, Jeeves.
A libel case from the PM against said suspect MP will be a little tricky, as both figures are very prominent conservatives.
The libel would be against the publishers, surely. Has the source been described as "very prominent"?
Are there many MP's from Oxford, yes. But there are not many MP's who were at Oxford with Cameron and going around in the same places as him, the list is limited.
Don't worry, SO'll try to blame Rory Stewart, despite him being seven years younger than Cameron and not at Oxford at the same time.
I'm a litigation lawyer. I spent more of my time advising people not to sue rather than the opposite. Litigation always costs more (and in more than financial ways) than you can possibly imagine. It should always be used as a last resort.
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
All that was in today's edition. Where's the new gossip?
I'm an idiot. That was yesterday!
My coat, Jeeves.
A libel case from the PM against said suspect MP will be a little tricky, as both figures are very prominent conservatives.
The libel would be against the publishers, surely. Has the source been described as "very prominent"?
The source has not been identified and could deny it. Libel 101 is don't rely on off the record, unattributable briefings, If it did come to court, the defence would presumably be that the book is reporting the rumour, not saying it is true. That is, unless there is proof. Presumably Cameron would have known in advance of today that the story was in the book and would run in the Daily Mail.
Surely that is not a libel defence. If I said there was a rumour Mr Prominent Politician had sex with a young boy during his time in the army, I would definitely be held account for libel if I could not substantiate it.
I am trying to work out what a defence could be if there is no proof of this. It is certainly flimsy, but it's hard to imagine the Mail or Ian Dale publishing without some kind of evidence it happened. The lawyers would have had kittens. Maybe it is just that Ashcroft has indemnified everyone.
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
All that was in today's edition. Where's the new gossip?
I'm an idiot. That was yesterday!
My coat, Jeeves.
A libel case from the PM against said suspect MP will be a little tricky, as both figures are very prominent conservatives.
The libel would be against the publishers, surely. Has the source been described as "very prominent"?
The source has not been identified and could deny it. Libel 101 is don't rely on off the record, unattributable briefings, If it did come to court, the defence would presumably be that the book is reporting the rumour, not saying it is true. That is, unless there is proof. Presumably Cameron would have known in advance of today that the story was in the book and would run in the Daily Mail.
Surely that is not a libel defence. If I said there was a rumour Mr Prominent Politician had sex with a young boy during his time in the army, I would definitely be held account for libel if I could not substantiate it.
I am trying to work out what a defence could be if there is no proof of this. It is certainly flimsy, but it's hard to imagine the Mail or Ian Dale publishing without some kind of evidence it happened. The lawyers would have had kittens. Maybe it is just that Ashcroft has indemnified everyone.
Wouldn't it ultimately be on the publisher of the book?
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
All that was in today's edition. Where's the new gossip?
I'm an idiot. That was yesterday!
My coat, Jeeves.
A libel case from the PM against said suspect MP will be a little tricky, as both figures are very prominent conservatives.
The libel would be against the publishers, surely. Has the source been described as "very prominent"?
The source has not been identified and could deny it. Libel 101 is don't rely on off the record, unattributable briefings, If it did come to court, the defence would presumably be that the book is reporting the rumour, not saying it is true. That is, unless there is proof. Presumably Cameron would have known in advance of today that the story was in the book and would run in the Daily Mail.
Wouldn't that defence give them the ability to say anything they want, under the guise of it being a rumour?
Correct.
It won't get you out of trouble 9 times out of 10 - the implication is that the reported statement is true.
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
All that was in today's edition. Where's the new gossip?
I'm an idiot. That was yesterday!
My coat, Jeeves.
A libel case from the PM against said suspect MP will be a little tricky, as both figures are very prominent conservatives.
The libel would be against the publishers, surely. Has the source been described as "very prominent"?
The source has not been identified and could deny it. Libel 101 is don't rely on off the record, unattributable briefings, If it did come to court, the defence would presumably be that the book is reporting the rumour, not saying it is true. That is, unless there is proof. Presumably Cameron would have known in advance of today that the story was in the book and would run in the Daily Mail.
Surely that is not a libel defence. If I said there was a rumour Mr Prominent Politician had sex with a young boy during his time in the army, I would definitely be held account for libel if I could not substantiate it.
I am trying to work out what a defence could be if there is no proof of this. It is certainly flimsy, but it's hard to imagine the Mail or Ian Dale publishing without some kind of evidence it happened. The lawyers would have had kittens. Maybe it is just that Ashcroft has indemnified everyone.
Wouldn't it ultimately be on the publisher of the book?
I have been sued for libel. It's not nice. But when it happened, everyone connected was sued - the printer, the publisher, the journalist, me as editor. They would go for everyone they could I imagine. It's hard to believe that the Mail would not be targeted. But it could be Ashcroft has promised to cover everyone.
We won the case in the end, btw. But it took years. Luckily my employer - Associated Press, publisher of the Daily Mail - had insurance and we were covered by it.
1. Loss of authority could be terminal 2. Shows power of those behind the apparent leaders, ie Ashcroft can pull the plug on Cameron if he wants, due to his powerful position and the fact that he has authority within the Press. He and the Mail don’t care for Cameron, hence this attack. Imagine if I said this about Chris Grayling (I was at Uni with him, and of course this isn't true of him) – no one would print it 3. Also initiation rites are deliberate control on future elites, to keep them in line in future 4. However it is also represents wider sexual violence, humiliation, denigration of poor people, etc, by the ruling elite
hey!
Come on @TheScreamingEagles I know this is your last day (for your efforts thanks) but if you are going to set up a spoof account to continue posting to try to make us believe you are some bonkers lefty you are going to have to do better than this.
Thanks, I thought I was a real person, but maybe you know better!
You are a real person and apologies if you were offended by what I said.
talking about elites is always tricky. What, for example, was the percentage of the population who went to university at the time of Chris Grayling? Would that have constituted an elite?
Of course, every poster on here is a member of the elite. But, shush don't tell anyone.
Interesting Ashcroft waited until a few months after the election to publish to do maximum damage to Cameron while limiting the damage to the party. As a billionaire or close to it I doubt he cares about any libel risk he can afford a legal case. I doubt it really harms Dave though. Interesting too that Dave smoked weed with James Delingpole and then went 'wooding' for girls with Cameron having many overnight visitors apparently, although perhaps too much information
Apparently there will be more revelations tomorrow about drugs and hunting. The mind boggles.
Sounds pretty dull - I know people have joked about this pig stuff being the sort of thing you expect from the upper classes, but drugs and hunting stuff is really what they expect.
He could have drugged & beheaded Cecil the Lion & the Tories on here would say it's not as bad as Corbyn being a vegetarian and swatting a fly
Someone should remind you of this next time Farage gets a negative story printed about him and you go all defensive.
Don't worry, it won't be long ...
I'm struggling to think of a story about Farage. There are plenty of Ukip stories - some of which were completely untrue and defamatory.
"In print and online articles in April and May 2013 we said that Alex Wood, who was standing for UKIP in the May 2013 local elections in Somerset, had been photographed making a 'Nazi salute'. We also said that he had made racist comments on Facebook.
We now accept that these allegations were wrong and there is no reason to believe that Mr Wood is a racist or a Nazi. The photograph, one of a series of photographs appearing on his Facebook page, was taken out of context. Mr Wood was reaching out to stop a friend taking a photo on a mobile phone. The comments on Facebook purportedly made by Mr Wood were not made by him and the police have confirmed that they were not made by Mr Wood.
We apologise to Mr Wood for the allegations made and any hurt and distress caused as a result. We hope this apology will go some way to repairing Mr Wood’s reputation.”"
Reading the comments on social media, having left the office now, some of which are very funny, I wonder if Cameron may feel compelled to take action against Ashcroft/the Mail/the publishers - assuming he was 100% not involved in this - to ensure he doesn't become a figure of fun.
How can he go "out on the stump" if he's going to be forever now plagued with comedy pig references, idiots in pig costumes, oinking, pork references etc?
It's a bit like the fire safety officer in Phoenix Nights with his supposed predilection for canines destroying his credibility and reputation forevermore...
He's stuck with this whatever happens. And there is no amount of money that would worry Ashcroft, should it come to court. Billionaires can basically do whatever they want, as long as it is not criminal.
Who's got the bigger wad? Ashcroft. Game Over.
Libel cases are rarely about the truth, but who has more cash and can grind down their opponent with legal bills. You want to take a big case to Court? You're looking at 6/7 figure costs.
Not sure how old Cameron's kids are, but I do feel sorry for them. They'll be getting some stick over this [NB I said much the same when the raw meat nonsense happened with Jacqui Smith and her husband].
I'm a litigation lawyer. I spent more of my time advising people not to sue rather than the opposite. Litigation always costs more (and in more than financial ways) than you can possibly imagine. It should always be used as a last resort.
I can see the logic and the sense in what you say and sensible advice but it leaves a doubt. Smoke and fire etc. Surbiton referenced this up thread where it was stated the fact that action had not been taken means "it must be true".
Here is the danger I think because I can fully understand the costs involved and avoidance is best but with no real means of defending an allegation in a court what do you do have? particularly if you do not have pots of money to pursue. Your name is trashed and you are placed in a position of double or quits and quite often double is the outcome this having done nothing wrong ( presuming allegations are false)
I suspect the small claims court and trading standards is not going to cut it really?
Well reading some of the details of the story, I think I can make an educated guess who the MP, who was at Oxford at the same time as Cameron and could have witnessed the whole thing, is. I'm suspecting a quite fair-haired person.
All that was in today's edition. Where's the new gossip?
I'm an idiot. That was yesterday!
My coat, Jeeves.
A libel case from the PM against said suspect MP will be a little tricky, as both figures are very prominent conservatives.
The libel would be against the publishers, surely. Has the source been described as "very prominent"?
The source has not been identified and could deny it. Libel 101 is don't rely on off the record, unattributable briefings, If it did come to court, the defence would presumably be that the book is reporting the rumour, not saying it is true. That is, unless there is proof. Presumably Cameron would have known in advance of today that the story was in the book and would run in the Daily Mail.
Surely that is not a libel defence. If I said there was a rumour Mr Prominent Politician had sex with a young boy during his time in the army, I would definitely be held account for libel if I could not substantiate it.
I am trying to work out what a defence could be if there is no proof of this. It is certainly flimsy, but it's hard to imagine the Mail or Ian Dale publishing without some kind of evidence it happened. The lawyers would have had kittens. Maybe it is just that Ashcroft has indemnified everyone.
Wouldn't it ultimately be on the publisher of the book?
I believe Ashcroft owns part/all of the publisher.
I don't know what shocks me more. The Prime Minister caught in flagrante delicto with a dead pig or a standing ovation for the man who destroyed the Lib Dems
Comments
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jill-biden-supports-a-presidential-run-by-her-husband-joe-biden-for-election-2016/
A negative for Biden is that MSNBC (ludicrously left wing) reported that his attempts to woo the black Congressional Caucus from supporting Hillary did not go too well.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/biden-tries-but-black-lawmakers-still-love-clinton/vp-AAeuoBf
On the other hand, the NY Post (ludicrously right wing) today gives a different story:
http://nypost.com/2015/09/20/congressional-black-caucus-urges-biden-to-enter-2016-race/
F1: does the VW super-fine (if it happens) imperil Red Bull and Toro Rosso? Perhaps.
Meanwhile, Grosjean seems set to move to Haas: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34316550
BBC Gossip page reckons Button's going to retire.
And, reportedly, the Renault-Lotus deal is done.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. -- Groucho Marx
It seems like a risky strategy given that all other media outlets are handling it with kid gloves and in the most oblique fashion. Why are they all being so cautious if there is no need?
;-)
Isabel Oakeshott seems an interesting character. Who would have thought a Sunday Times journalist and Chipping Norton resident would turn out to be a double agent?
If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed. -
Mark Twain
1) it's a non-story
2) Murdoch is pro-Tory
3) they don't want their readers rushing out to buy the Daily Mail.
Probably the third weighs heaviest.
I wonder how many other car manufacturers are also using the same, or similar, techniques?
As I've said before, we need independent testing labs for all performance-related metrics used in tests and advertising. Testing labs pick one car at random out of every (say) 100,000 sold from a forecourt and run it through the tests. If any problems are found, more are tested at random.
The car manufacturers have proved time and time again they cannot be trusted, and the fines'll pat for a fair few labs and tests.
I was most confused to see 'This is not a government that the people voted in majority for', as to my recollection that is indeed what the people just did (and it cannot be a point about the electoral system, or it would say so presumably, as no other party was 'voted in majority for')
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34311254
"The reasons the other papers aren't joining in ..........."
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/606695/David-Cameron-dead-pig-private-part-Oxford-University-student-Prime-Minister
Perhaps a boar..ed of enquiry instead to see if someone will squeal?
Don't worry, it won't be long ...
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/07/nigel-farage-blames-immigration-m4-traffic-ukip-reception
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farages-carcrash-lbc-interview-halted-by-ukip-spin-doctor-over-expenses-queries-9386105.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11506884/Nigel-Farage-Britons-so-ill-at-ease-with-immigrants-their-children-cannot-play-in-the-streets.html
+ more.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2649305/I-didnt-bed-Ukip-leader-Nigel-Farage-calls-photos-holding-hands-disabled-woman-abhorrent-mischief-making.html
No response from alleged owner of alleged photograph
Vague talk about 'debauched ' parties.... bit only 'in Cameron's day'. ie. Not with him present.
Hmmm...
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/645722241016029185/photo/1
I'm an idiot. That was yesterday!
My coat, Jeeves.
His Lordship is wealthy enough not to give a hoot about what others think of him. For Isabel Oakeshott on the other hand, it is her profession so gawd knows why she got herself involved in this tawdry little book.
Arguably, the biggest factor that undid the Major government was not their nastiness or the 'Black Wednesday' incompetence, but the 'Back to Basics' sex scandals....
Any lawyers know if there is a statute of limitations on libel?
http://www.thecufflinkstore.co.uk/1653-pig-silk-tie-.html?gclid=CjwKEAjw1f6vBRC7tLqO_aih5WISJAAE0CYwS4P_K-3zoVPfcAdj0qCKctHkm4jKWQVkhKDp1rgyIBoC-pDw_wcB
Just noting the different standards that apply to each politician depending on whether he or she is one of ours or one of theirs
Cameron in South Africa and Corbyn in East Germany pre political days is the biggest case of double standards in my book.
How can he go "out on the stump" if he's going to be forever now plagued with comedy pig references, idiots in pig costumes, oinking, pork references etc?
It's a bit like the fire safety officer in Phoenix Nights with his supposed predilection for canines destroying his credibility and reputation forevermore...
It will be very interesting to see the impact, or lack thereof, the allegation has.
Front page of next days Mirror "FARAGE: I wont help the disabled"
In hindsight, The Mirror should actually have bigged UKIP up, they could have prevented a Tory majority
I wonder if he'll wait until he's no longer PM, and then sue.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Observer, quite. Except that Corbyn's views are a matter of public record, whereas it's my understanding Cameron does not agree with the Ashcroft account of his past.
It's also Tory blue... What's not to like?
But there are not many MP's who were at Oxford with Cameron and going around in the same places as him, the list is limited.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3243154/It-s-not-day-Greece-loggerheads-EU-24-hours-Tsipras-election-win-head-European-Parliament-questions-Syriza-s-strange-far-right-coalition-partner.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=36&v=FBpQJ98rR4o
It's going to be interesting to see where this heads.
Perhaps Cam is trying to remember what he got up to before advising his lawyers
"In print and online articles in April and May 2013 we said that Alex Wood, who was standing for UKIP in the May 2013 local elections in Somerset, had been photographed making a 'Nazi salute'. We also said that he had made racist comments on Facebook.
We now accept that these allegations were wrong and there is no reason to believe that Mr Wood is a racist or a Nazi. The photograph, one of a series of photographs appearing on his Facebook page, was taken out of context. Mr Wood was reaching out to stop a friend taking a photo on a mobile phone. The comments on Facebook purportedly made by Mr Wood were not made by him and the police have confirmed that they were not made by Mr Wood.
We apologise to Mr Wood for the allegations made and any hurt and distress caused as a result. We hope this apology will go some way to repairing Mr Wood’s reputation.”"
http://www.mirror.co.uk/for-the-record/alex-wood-an-apology-6209529
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/09/21/uk-italy-britain-labour-idUKKCN0RL1XM20150921
It won't get you out of trouble 9 times out of 10 - the implication is that the reported statement is true.
Can reduce any award though.
We won the case in the end, btw. But it took years. Luckily my employer - Associated Press, publisher of the Daily Mail - had insurance and we were covered by it.
Rich people are untouchable.
https://twitter.com/PA/status/645886223622475781
Is this journalist trying to make Britain look bad in front of an emerging superpower?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0332t86
But it wasn't about Farage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU
Libel cases are rarely about the truth, but who has more cash and can grind down their opponent with legal bills. You want to take a big case to Court? You're looking at 6/7 figure costs.
Here is the danger I think because I can fully understand the costs involved and avoidance is best but with no real means of defending an allegation in a court what do you do have? particularly if you do not have pots of money to pursue. Your name is trashed and you are placed in a position of double or quits and quite often double is the outcome this having done nothing wrong ( presuming allegations are false)
I suspect the small claims court and trading standards is not going to cut it really?