Ah initiations, how I remember them. Never did anything like this, but still some pretty random stuff.
I don't see this story lasting beyond the end of the week. It also makes Ashcroft look extremely petty.
The thing is, most of the population don't get involved in weird degrading initiations, and don't really want to be ruled over by secret societies, whereas people in certain circles like yourself probably think it's normal.
I hardly think the Cardiff University cricket team is a secret circle or society. I don't know about what the Bullindgon initiation involves, but it is probably similar to Cardiff Rugby, in which case this story isn't all that surprising.
Surely no one thinks he has a thing for pigs. These secret societies of chums that run the country, that demand allegiance by doing degrading things so that there is a certain level of control over you, are a fact, though. Whether there is truth to this particular incident.
That's the point. You are put in a position of enforced solidarity because you did something so against what you would consider acceptable or normal - and this circle of people all know this. As in turn, you know it of them too. It's fine until someone spills the beans.
Never had to deal with hazing in any form. I wouldn't consider it a price worth paying to hang around with people who would. But that's just me. I know many people who have done squalid things that I could relate here, but they would turn your stomach, so I will refrain.
Good friend of mine was hazed during his Navy training to drink a pint of pee - someone else's.
Not my style, but the psychology of this stuff is very peculiar and it goes on in all walks of life. Gang culture is infamous for it. As you note - it's about a shared solidarity that goes way beyond the norm to show it's not just lip service.
Surely no one thinks he has a thing for pigs. These secret societies of chums that run the country, that demand allegiance by doing degrading things so that there is a certain level of control over you, are a fact, though. Whether there is truth to this particular incident.
That's the point. You are put in a position of enforced solidarity because you did something so against what you would consider acceptable or normal - and this circle of people all know this. As in turn, you know it of them too. It's fine until someone spills the beans.
Never had to deal with hazing in any form. I wouldn't consider it a price worth paying to hang around with people who would. But that's just me. I know many people who have done squalid things that I could relate here, but they would turn your stomach, so I will refrain.
I was a bit worried for a moment that James Delingpole's room in Peckwater Quad, mentioned in the Mail story, might have been my old room, but it's OK, it turns out his was on the top floor, mine was on the ground floor.
What surprises me is the, err, squealer. I can't think of anyone I did the initiation with who would run to the press about it because that person did the same stuff. This MP who went running to Aschcroft almost certainly f*cked the same pig as did the guy who has the picture.
Good friend of mine was hazed during his Navy training to drink a pint of pee - someone else's.
Not my style, but the psychology of this stuff is very peculiar and it goes on in all walks of life. Gang culture is infamous for it. As you note - it's about a shared solidarity that goes way beyond the norm to show it's not just lip service.
Surely no one thinks he has a thing for pigs. These secret societies of chums that run the country, that demand allegiance by doing degrading things so that there is a certain level of control over you, are a fact, though. Whether there is truth to this particular incident.
That's the point. You are put in a position of enforced solidarity because you did something so against what you would consider acceptable or normal - and this circle of people all know this. As in turn, you know it of them too. It's fine until someone spills the beans.
Never had to deal with hazing in any form. I wouldn't consider it a price worth paying to hang around with people who would. But that's just me. I know many people who have done squalid things that I could relate here, but they would turn your stomach, so I will refrain.
@JamieRoss7: I am finding that most crisis management firms are reluctant to tell me what advice they would give to a client accused of shagging a pig.
People seem to be going on to dangerous territory now. Putting your genitals in something disgusting as a dare and having sex with that something are not the same thing. Claiming that endangers libel, I would think.
People seem to be going on to dangerous territory now. Putting your genitals in something disgusting as a dare and having sex with that something are not the same thing. Claiming that endangers libel, I would think.
A libel case based on that distinction is probably not one which the lawyers would recommend pursuing!
@JamieRoss7: I am finding that most crisis management firms are reluctant to tell me what advice they would give to a client accused of shagging a pig.
People seem to be going on to dangerous territory now. Putting your genitals in something disgusting as a dare and having sex with that something are not the same thing. Claiming that endangers libel, I would think.
That would be one hell of a case:
"I did not have intercourse with a pig, M'Lud, I merely inserted my member into the mouth of a dead one. Anything that suggests otherwise is offensive to me and defamatory."
Bit harsh on Ashcroft - he wants to sell copies of the book to make money.
He has to fund those dubious constituency polls somehow.
Ashcroft correctly predicted three fundamentals of GE2015 which made a substantial difference to the result.
1. The Liberals were getting wiped out. 2. Labour were doing better than UNS in safe seats. 3. The SNP were doing better than UNS in the hardest seats to win.
Without the first two, the Tories wouldn't have had a majority even with the under-estimate of their VI that all pollsters shared.
Ashcroft's polling shouldn't be maligned, it turned out he was very useful for making predictions on the outcome.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
@JamieRoss7: I am finding that most crisis management firms are reluctant to tell me what advice they would give to a client accused of shagging a pig.
People seem to be going on to dangerous territory now. Putting your genitals in something disgusting as a dare and having sex with that something are not the same thing. Claiming that endangers libel, I would think.
I would queue up to attend that courtroom escapade. I didn't f*ck the pig, only put my penis in its mouth. Hmm...
The Islamic students’ society at the London university attended by the militant known as Jihadi John is dominated by hardline, ultra-conservative believers who refuse to even speak with female Muslim staff members, according to an independent report into inclusion among students at the institution.
Complaints about the conduct of the University of Westminster Islamic society, some from other Muslims, tended to be ignored or underplayed because staff and student unions officials were worried about appearing Islamophobic, the inquiry found.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
On topic, who cares? Public schoolboy japes already priced in I reckon.
I doubt many people care. But plenty think it's funny - ha, ha and peculiar.
Yes I agree... We always called public schoolboys 'wallies with confidence' and here is more evidence!
We are no match for their untamed wit.
+1 for the cultural reference. Happy days.
I must be getting incredibly jaded. I just can't get exercised by Cameron's disgusting youthful antics. I do feel sorry for his kids, there's some serious playground torment being stored up here.
People seem to be going on to dangerous territory now. Putting your genitals in something disgusting as a dare and having sex with that something are not the same thing. Claiming that endangers libel, I would think.
A libel case based on that distinction is probably not one which the lawyers would recommend pursuing!
Erm, when your PM allegedly sticks his cock into a dead pig's mouth this, trust me, is a whole different level.
If it's true, and esp, if the alleged photo comes to light, he's a goner.
Post of the day from arch tribalist Mr Estobar.
Its mildly embarrassing for Cameron, but if you think it finishes his time as PM you're bonkers.
It may not finish Cameron, but as the Prime Minister he needs a certain amount of dignity and respect and that has now gone. Cameron now looks like as big a joke as Boris.
Hopefully the next time Tories pick a leader it won't be another public schoolboy.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
People seem to be going on to dangerous territory now. Putting your genitals in something disgusting as a dare and having sex with that something are not the same thing. Claiming that endangers libel, I would think.
A libel case based on that distinction is probably not one which the lawyers would recommend pursuing!
Never mind his lawyers. It's not one his political advisers would recommend pursuing, as Bill Clinton could no doubt testify.
Bit harsh on Ashcroft - he wants to sell copies of the book to make money.
He has to fund those dubious constituency polls somehow.
Ashcroft correctly predicted three fundamentals of GE2015 which made a substantial difference to the result.
1. The Liberals were getting wiped out. 2. Labour were doing better than UNS in safe seats. 3. The SNP were doing better than UNS in the hardest seats to win.
Without the first two, the Tories wouldn't have had a majority even with the under-estimate of their VI that all pollsters shared.
Ashcroft's polling shouldn't be maligned, it turned out he was very useful for making predictions on the outcome.
He did spot a couple of things - but a well positioned pine cone could have picked up Slab collapse. LA less successful in predicting Lab-Con marginals going darker blue and obviously he overegged his Kippers.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
Dave must be looking forward to his next audience with Her Majesty.
I'm sure Liz will take it all in her stride... She'll probably symptahise with Dave for being stitched up by a wretch like Ashcroft... And of course we know The Royals hate the Papers.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
Erm, when your PM allegedly sticks his cock into a dead pig's mouth this, trust me, is a whole different level.
If it's true, and esp, if the alleged photo comes to light, he's a goner.
ref: @Estobar - if the alleged photo comes to light, he's a goner.
Post of the day from arch tribalist Mr Estobar.
Its mildly embarrassing for Cameron, but if you think it finishes his time as PM you're bonkers.
He mis-typed. He was actually trying to accuse Cam of a far worse thing: being an arsenal supporter. Than which as we know atm, it doesn't get much worse.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
So an even more limited number of people who may have, err, squealed. I think we can rule out Boris, since the first thing he would get asked is if he also did it, beyond that I can't imagine it will be difficult for No.10 to get a list of past members and find out who ratted, or should I say pigged, Dave out.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
So we only know of three MPs that were involved in the group: Cameron, Johnson and Stewart. Cameron is the target of the allegation and Johnson has denied any involvement.
Bit harsh on Ashcroft - he wants to sell copies of the book to make money.
He has to fund those dubious constituency polls somehow.
Ashcroft correctly predicted three fundamentals of GE2015 which made a substantial difference to the result.
1. The Liberals were getting wiped out. 2. Labour were doing better than UNS in safe seats. 3. The SNP were doing better than UNS in the hardest seats to win.
Without the first two, the Tories wouldn't have had a majority even with the under-estimate of their VI that all pollsters shared.
Ashcroft's polling shouldn't be maligned, it turned out he was very useful for making predictions on the outcome.
He did spot a couple of things - but a well positioned pine cone could have picked up Slab collapse. LA less successful in predicting Lab-Con marginals going darker blue and obviously he overegged his Kippers.
I think the point is, it was almost 30 years ago, - quite a few people will be remembering their ‘skeletons in the cupboard’ from their days at University, the military and every Rugby club up and down the country and thinking, been there done that.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
So an even more limited number of people who may have, err, squealed. I think we can rule out Boris, since the first thing he would get asked is if he also did it, beyond that I can't imagine it will be difficult for No.10 to get a list of past members and find out who ratted, or should I say pigged, Dave out.
Not sure all those pension funds holding shares would agree.
The shouldn't have manipulated and cheated the emissions tests. If they are found to have done so in Europe as well then the fines will be much larger where emissions standards are more stringent. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving company or industry. The German Auto industry may be in big trouble here if systemic cheating is found. If VW are doing it, then I find it hard to believe that BMW and Mercedes were letting them get away with it.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
I would not regard that WIKI article as remotely accurate - the Gaveston was already notorious when I went up in '76 (it claims it started in 77) and the choice of name and sexuality of the members were not coincidences - which is why I doubt Cameron, Johnson or Stewart were members.....of course it could have changed in the intervening decade or so......but if so it must have drifted significantly from its initial purpose....
Erm, when your PM allegedly sticks his cock into a dead pig's mouth this, trust me, is a whole different level.
If it's true, and esp, if the alleged photo comes to light, he's a goner.
ref: @Estobar - if the alleged photo comes to light, he's a goner.
Post of the day from arch tribalist Mr Estobar.
Its mildly embarrassing for Cameron, but if you think it finishes his time as PM you're bonkers.
He mis-typed. He was actually trying to accuse Cam of a far worse thing: being an arsenal supporter. Than which as we know atm, it doesn't get much worse.
As a Spurs fan I'm feeling reasonably happy at the moment, however I've a feeling that may change on Wednesday evening.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
I would not regard that WIKI article as remotely accurate - the Gaveston was already notorious when I went up in '76 (it claims it started in 77) and the choice of name and sexuality of the members were not coincidences - which is why I doubt Cameron, Johnson or Stewart were members.....of course it could have changed in the intervening decade or so......but if so it must have drifted significantly from its initial purpose....
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
I would not regard that WIKI article as remotely accurate - the Gaveston was already notorious when I went up in '76 (it claims it started in 77) and the choice of name and sexuality of the members were not coincidences - which is why I doubt Cameron, Johnson or Stewart were members.....of course it could have changed in the intervening decade or so......but if so it must have drifted significantly from its initial purpose....
As I understand it it was for gay boys and the pretty straight boys they lusted after - from the photos I've seen Cameron would never have been pretty enough....
Not sure all those pension funds holding shares would agree.
The pension companies should use their vast shareholdings to put pressure on the companies they hold shares in not to be utter tw@ts by screwing both consumers and the environment.
That pig wandering around Oxford..I thought she was on the opposition front bench now.
Mate.
I'm sure all the gallant PB knights so ready to defend one of their own against 'sexism' will be donning their armour as I type.
None of us know Abbott personally, so there's less invested.
But being rude about someone just because of their looks is pretty pointless.
I don't know anyone here personally. In any case I'd have thought disliking sexism should be a general principle, not a selective old pals act.
Of course. I don't think the comments on Abbott are sexism so much as petty and childish insults. 'Yah, boo!, You're ugly, you are!' doesn't add much to political discourse.
But people can certainly dislike sexism without feeling compelling to intervene on every occasion. But where there is a sense of community (even if it is not 'knowing someone personally') there is a great inclination to defend.
TSE Think you are wrong in your header. Scandals stick when they build on pre-existing fears or beliefs - as with Corbyn. So this one will be seen as a gotcha by those who already don't like Cameron, but for those who voted Tory at the last election, they will not see how this from his past effects what they voted on - his performance in office.
As I say to kids asking my advice on colleges, the most important thing on your resume is your last job and your last latest achievement - what you did, or failed to do in school, and where you went and how you did in college, becomes less and less important with the passage of time.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
I would not regard that WIKI article as remotely accurate - the Gaveston was already notorious when I went up in '76 (it claims it started in 77) and the choice of name and sexuality of the members were not coincidences - which is why I doubt Cameron, Johnson or Stewart were members.....of course it could have changed in the intervening decade or so......but if so it must have drifted significantly from its initial purpose....
As I understand it it was for gay boys and the pretty straight boys they lusted after - from the photos I've seen Cameron would never have been pretty enough....
Not to mention too rich, in that sort of environment the "pretty straight boys" are the ones without a moneyed background.
I've just got to this and I have to agree with the poster who said this kind of thing is commonplace where "team spirit" is important, and initiation is part of the process of having someone demonstrate their commitment to it. The police and rugby clubs are two such cases and I'm sure there are many others. It is peculiar but it usually has zero effect on others.
We know Cameron is posh and we've known about Bullingdon for ages (and that did affect others) so I think this goes nowhere other than confirming existing impressions. Ashcroft will earn a bob or two (as if he needs it) and people will have a good laugh, but as far as revenge goes, I think this is an OG.
People seem to be going on to dangerous territory now. Putting your genitals in something disgusting as a dare and having sex with that something are not the same thing. Claiming that endangers libel, I would think.
A libel case based on that distinction is probably not one which the lawyers would recommend pursuing!
I thought that Clinton clearly demonstrated that oral sex is not "sexual relations"!
People seem to be going on to dangerous territory now. Putting your genitals in something disgusting as a dare and having sex with that something are not the same thing. Claiming that endangers libel, I would think.
A libel case based on that distinction is probably not one which the lawyers would recommend pursuing!
I thought that Clinton clearly demonstrated that oral sex is not "sexual relations"!
Not sure all those pension funds holding shares would agree.
The shouldn't have manipulated and cheated the emissions tests. If they are found to have done so in Europe as well then the fines will be much larger where emissions standards are more stringent. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving company or industry. The German Auto industry may be in big trouble here if systemic cheating is found. If VW are doing it, then I find it hard to believe that BMW and Mercedes were letting them get away with it.
As I understand it, almost every European company has cheated the tests in some way.
As I am not a VW fan, I have to say it could not happen to a nicer company...(they deny any deign problems - and have fewer recalls than the Japanese as they don't care)
Needless to say the Conservatives on here are desperately trying to spin this as a non-story and in some respects it is. Politically, it's a non-story though there may be other revelations in the Ashcroft book which are more harmful but we'll see.
What the allegations do is to drag Cameron down to the same level as Corbyn, Clegg and other politicians whose private foibles have been publicised. It weakens the aura of respect and authority that Cameron has been able to cultivate as Prime Minister since 2010 as a "decent, ordinary bloke" and condemns him to ridicule both from his opponents (to be expected) but also from those who may have been more friendly or well-disposed.
The other aspect is Cameron's personal reaction. My view has always been that Cameron likes and even needs to be liked and respected - he thrives on the notion of popularity and geniality. We have also seen in the past he doesn't like to be challenged or personally attacked and it will be fascinating to see how he reacts to the inevitable jibes and japes. He is to an extent shielded by the Conservative Party and the Government machine and surrounded by a huge support network determined to please and even flatter.
Given all that, it's no surprise if he decides to backtrack on his decision to leave No.10. To leave all that voluntarily must seem as mad to him as it did to Thatcher and even Blair. Yet the insulation isn't 100% and I'm sure he will be aware of the derision and the mocking. Let's see how he responds personally to being mocked and ridiculed rather than respected and admired.
People seem to be going on to dangerous territory now. Putting your genitals in something disgusting as a dare and having sex with that something are not the same thing. Claiming that endangers libel, I would think.
A libel case based on that distinction is probably not one which the lawyers would recommend pursuing!
I thought that Clinton clearly demonstrated that oral sex is not "sexual relations"!
I thought his defence was "oral sex is not adultery. The Bible says so."
Not sure all those pension funds holding shares would agree.
The pension companies should use their vast shareholdings to put pressure on the companies they hold shares in not to be utter tw@ts by screwing both consumers and the environment.
Which is exactly what they were doing.
Sure. My point was more that those paying into the funds probably do not deserve to see the values of their pensions reduced.
The story was recounted to them by a contemporary of Mr Cameron who went on to become an MP – and who claims that another member of the group has photographic evidence to prove it.
The unnamed individual said to possess the picture failed to respond to the authors’ approaches.
So we only know of three MPs that were involved in the group: Cameron, Johnson and Stewart. Cameron is the target of the allegation and Johnson has denied any involvement.
There are about a dozen members each year, plus female guests.
So probably up to 30-50 people *could* have known. Probably likely to be c. 20 given that it would presumably only have been during initiation.
Although did the source actually say he/she was *present* at the event or just that it happened and there was photographic evidence? (not going to read the Mail article).
Also, it wasn't clear to me that the source was *currently* an MP - just that 'they went on to become an MP'.
People seem to be going on to dangerous territory now. Putting your genitals in something disgusting as a dare and having sex with that something are not the same thing. Claiming that endangers libel, I would think.
A libel case based on that distinction is probably not one which the lawyers would recommend pursuing!
I thought that Clinton clearly demonstrated that oral sex is not "sexual relations"!
Surely "is not" is a Clintonian definition of "is".
As in "this email on my personal less secure server is not classiffied material."
One of the interesting aspects of this story is "where is the line".
I reckon there is little doubt that Cameron will survive this. It's embarrassing, but that's about it. In terms of political impact, it will probably stop him bringing up the pasts of others. There will be a witty conference remark and that will be that.
But where is the line in 2015?
If it happened last week would that matter? If a photo were to emerge, would that make a difference? If a second incident were to come to light, could the idea that this was a habit be enough to end a PM career?
Comments
Never had to deal with hazing in any form. I wouldn't consider it a price worth paying to hang around with people who would. But that's just me. I know many people who have done squalid things that I could relate here, but they would turn your stomach, so I will refrain.
Not my style, but the psychology of this stuff is very peculiar and it goes on in all walks of life. Gang culture is infamous for it. As you note - it's about a shared solidarity that goes way beyond the norm to show it's not just lip service.
He has to fund those dubious constituency polls somehow.
I guess the trip to saudi will have to wait.
It reeks of the Human League song....
'Don't you want me baby...'
Meanwhile, Kermit has sent Dave a message of support.
Its mildly embarrassing for Cameron, but if you think it finishes his time as PM you're bonkers.
Dave would be a fool to sue over any of this. Keeps the story going.
As it is, its tomorrow's chip wrapping.
"I did not have intercourse with a pig, M'Lud, I merely inserted my member into the mouth of a dead one. Anything that suggests otherwise is offensive to me and defamatory."
1. The Liberals were getting wiped out.
2. Labour were doing better than UNS in safe seats.
3. The SNP were doing better than UNS in the hardest seats to win.
Without the first two, the Tories wouldn't have had a majority even with the under-estimate of their VI that all pollsters shared.
Ashcroft's polling shouldn't be maligned, it turned out he was very useful for making predictions on the outcome.
I know you were all waiting bated breath
....and who has had his own Prime Ministerial ambitions thwarted maybe?
Why does it have to be a Conservative MP?
Estobar's recent predictions include Dave having to resign after losing the EU referendum to eurosceptic Corbyn.
Who is....er.....backing us staying in the EU until 2020.
Mystic Meg
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/sep/20/westminster-university-islamic-students-society-ultra-conservative-muslims?CMP=twt_gu
The Islamic students’ society at the London university attended by the militant known as Jihadi John is dominated by hardline, ultra-conservative believers who refuse to even speak with female Muslim staff members, according to an independent report into inclusion among students at the institution.
Complaints about the conduct of the University of Westminster Islamic society, some from other Muslims, tended to be ignored or underplayed because staff and student unions officials were worried about appearing Islamophobic, the inquiry found.
He claims to have been in attendance, so he had to have been a Bullingdon oaf as well.
I must be getting incredibly jaded. I just can't get exercised by Cameron's disgusting youthful antics. I do feel sorry for his kids, there's some serious playground torment being stored up here.
It may not finish Cameron, but as the Prime Minister he needs a certain amount of dignity and respect and that has now gone. Cameron now looks like as big a joke as Boris.
Hopefully the next time Tories pick a leader it won't be another public schoolboy.
VW shares lost 18% in early trading.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34311819
Good. They deserve to suffer for this.
I really don't give a toss what they got up to when young and stupid - but I'm intrigued as to who was daft enough to blab to Ashcroft about it. He claims to have been in attendance, so he had to have been a Bullingdon oaf as well.
Different club, no?
I'm just an oik so might have this wrong,
There are pairs of men who want to 'roast' hogs???
Now that IS perverted.
Sorry, wrong club of oafs.
It wasn't the Bullingdon, it was the Piers Gaveston Society. Wikipedia has a handy selection of its previous, ahem, members:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Gaveston_Society
There are a couple of MPs named.
Plenty of Labour MPs went to Oxford. One ex shadow-chancellor was even in the Conservative Association, as was Bryant.
I agree its unlikely, but it's a possibility.
As a side issue: this was the 'Piers Gaveston' society wasn't it. In which case, it's limited numbers of suspects.
It's another example of why Cambridge a much better university than Oxford
We all have skeletons!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Gaveston_Society
There are a couple of MPs named.
So an even more limited number of people who may have, err, squealed. I think we can rule out Boris, since the first thing he would get asked is if he also did it, beyond that I can't imagine it will be difficult for No.10 to get a list of past members and find out who ratted, or should I say pigged, Dave out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Gaveston_Society
There are a couple of MPs named.
Hugh Grant - lol.
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/singapore-post-race-analysis.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Gaveston_Society
There are a couple of MPs named.
So we only know of three MPs that were involved in the group: Cameron, Johnson and Stewart. Cameron is the target of the allegation and Johnson has denied any involvement.
It's like asking Ted Heath to comment on Mrs T.
Hugh Grant too?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Gaveston_Society
There are a couple of MPs named.
I would not regard that WIKI article as remotely accurate - the Gaveston was already notorious when I went up in '76 (it claims it started in 77) and the choice of name and sexuality of the members were not coincidences - which is why I doubt Cameron, Johnson or Stewart were members.....of course it could have changed in the intervening decade or so......but if so it must have drifted significantly from its initial purpose....
Too many pigs make a pork.
This sounds fascinating in a Jeremy Kyle kinda way. I would not regard that WIKI article as remotely accurate - the Gaveston was already notorious when I went up in '76 (it claims it started in 77) and the choice of name and sexuality of the members were not coincidences - which is why I doubt Cameron, Johnson or Stewart were members.....of course it could have changed in the intervening decade or so......but if so it must have drifted significantly from its initial purpose....
The Piers Gaveston Society is named in honour of the Earl of Cornwall, allegedly the gay lover of Edward II.
Public displays of sexual intercourse allegedly take place at its social functions.
As I understand it it was for gay boys and the pretty straight boys they lusted after - from the photos I've seen Cameron would never have been pretty enough....
Which is exactly what they were doing.
But people can certainly dislike sexism without feeling compelling to intervene on every occasion. But where there is a sense of community (even if it is not 'knowing someone personally') there is a great inclination to defend.
As I say to kids asking my advice on colleges, the most important thing on your resume is your last job and your last latest achievement - what you did, or failed to do in school, and where you went and how you did in college, becomes less and less important with the passage of time.
Not to mention too rich, in that sort of environment the "pretty straight boys" are the ones without a moneyed background.
We know Cameron is posh and we've known about Bullingdon for ages (and that did affect others) so I think this goes nowhere other than confirming existing impressions. Ashcroft will earn a bob or two (as if he needs it) and people will have a good laugh, but as far as revenge goes, I think this is an OG.
As I understand it, almost every European company has cheated the tests in some way.
As I am not a VW fan, I have to say it could not happen to a nicer company...(they deny any deign problems - and have fewer recalls than the Japanese as they don't care)
Needless to say the Conservatives on here are desperately trying to spin this as a non-story and in some respects it is. Politically, it's a non-story though there may be other revelations in the Ashcroft book which are more harmful but we'll see.
What the allegations do is to drag Cameron down to the same level as Corbyn, Clegg and other politicians whose private foibles have been publicised. It weakens the aura of respect and authority that Cameron has been able to cultivate as Prime Minister since 2010 as a "decent, ordinary bloke" and condemns him to ridicule both from his opponents (to be expected) but also from those who may have been more friendly or well-disposed.
The other aspect is Cameron's personal reaction. My view has always been that Cameron likes and even needs to be liked and respected - he thrives on the notion of popularity and geniality. We have also seen in the past he doesn't like to be challenged or personally attacked and it will be fascinating to see how he reacts to the inevitable jibes and japes. He is to an extent shielded by the Conservative Party and the Government machine and surrounded by a huge support network determined to please and even flatter.
Given all that, it's no surprise if he decides to backtrack on his decision to leave No.10. To leave all that voluntarily must seem as mad to him as it did to Thatcher and even Blair. Yet the insulation isn't 100% and I'm sure he will be aware of the derision and the mocking. Let's see how he responds personally to being mocked and ridiculed rather than respected and admired.
There are about a dozen members each year, plus female guests.
So probably up to 30-50 people *could* have known. Probably likely to be c. 20 given that it would presumably only have been during initiation.
Although did the source actually say he/she was *present* at the event or just that it happened and there was photographic evidence? (not going to read the Mail article).
Also, it wasn't clear to me that the source was *currently* an MP - just that 'they went on to become an MP'.
As in "this email on my personal less secure server is not classiffied material."
"No, Dave - I said put the cox in the dead pig's mouth!"
I reckon there is little doubt that Cameron will survive this. It's embarrassing, but that's about it. In terms of political impact, it will probably stop him bringing up the pasts of others. There will be a witty conference remark and that will be that.
But where is the line in 2015?
If it happened last week would that matter?
If a photo were to emerge, would that make a difference?
If a second incident were to come to light, could the idea that this was a habit be enough to end a PM career?
Curious.