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  • Pro_Rata said:

    Random potentially radical centre-left thoughts/potential areas of policy. No research, no kicking round for 2 years by clever people, just ideas I have in my head that are probably pretty variable in quality:

    (1) Properly and quickly develop the Labour offer for joint health and social care, defining the partnership between carers and public sector. Make damn sure the Labour centre battles its hardest where the keys to devolved mayoralties with real powers are at stake and quietly and quickly implement big stuff while Corbyn blusters.

    (2) Welfare is ripe for revolution rather than crackdown. My personal mad thought is for less means testing but a sliding NI scale up to ca 30-40%, with a large 'no claims bonus' element to this 'insurance'. So, choose to claim (decent) flat-rate benefits for 3 months, pay higher tax for a couple of years - your choice. Apply this (albeit in different variants) to states pensions, student maintenance, prisoners. Make sure the tapering is spot on so that this effects tax rises that can be sold as toughness on welfare. Elements of UC cover the same territory, but time will be up on that by next parliament and there will be decent freedom to build in whichever direction.

    (3) Cloak the still piecemeal devolution that will be around in 2020, with strong, bottom-up democratic right for geographical areas of the UK to self-associate and take on whichever of a number of devolution options they want (or not) up to independence. Ensure enough limitations on the options, sizes and frequency of voting available to prevent neverendum, the fear of a Sharia state or of destabilising Northern Ireland by this.

    (4) Trial small areas of project based public spending to be run by public vote in a crowdfunding fashion. e.g. You could nominate the destiny of £10 from a pot of DfID money as a click through option when you fill in your car renewal online.

    (5) A very open mixed economy of investment, avoiding some of the PPI difficulties. So you might build a Severn lagoon with private money, but tell EDF to hop it, we'll build nuclear power stations with public money. Also be fully prepared to build public and sell off, run private where that fits the bill. Same any which way spirit to house building.

    (6) Political correctness only where it furthers the real cause of human dignity as something on which to challenge the Labour base. It is actually this rather than leftyism that is the real comfort blanket Labour never let go of from the 1980s.

    Very interesting.. But tell me , how can the "we'll build nuclear power stations with public money" bit work when the state has little if any experience of designing nuclear power stations in the past 20 years...?

    And your section 2 on welfare does not cover the two largest problems: OAPs living longer with minimal incomes and the poor /unemployed/immigrants..
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    JEO said:

    Re. The 'two camels for a blonde' discussion.

    A big issue here are arranged marriages and resultant dowries, which institutionalises the concept that a woman has a price with which she can be purchased.

    Once that attitude predominates within a culture, women have a monetary value. It's particularly terrible where the complementary concept of a 'dower' is non-existent or weak.

    Sadly, this concept is very wide spread - from India through Eastern Europe to the Middle East.

    Women as chattels to be bought and sold is the sort of cultural practice to be eradicated, but at least the Egyptian camel sellers are paying. In the Indian dowry system the family provides the dowry to the groom in effect giving the woman a negative financial value.

    Of course, many in this country believe that all cultures are equal. A culture that treats women as equal to men isn't "better" than one which assigns women a monetary value, just "different".
    It certainly is a better culture and I have no hesitation in saying so. Some cultures are backward in terms of various forms of bigotry, and the mess that is the middle east is a direct result of that cultures social, economic and political failure which in turn are heavily rooted in Islam.
  • JEO said:

    Mr. Isam, someone I know was offered three camels for his blonde wife when they went on holiday in Egypt a few years ago.

    If that's the best hope, I'm not confident. The power in the EU is concentrated in German hands, with the French the bully's best friend.

    An intriguing, but very theoretical, possibility would be the UK leaving, and Eastern Europe deciding it prefers a trade agreement with the UK to German hegemony.

    The power in the EU is concentrated in German hands because they have the deepest pockets and the largest population. As long as decision-making is essentially decided on a national level, that will remain because others will look to it for leadership.

    The only realistic alternative, however, is to shift the power away from the national governments - to the Commission and the Parliament - which implies coming close to a full federation, with a central authority with direct powers over borders and taxation.
    Power also rests in German hands not just because of size, but because, for historical reasons, France and Germany have a commitment to agreeing a joint position before EU summits. A Franco-German joint position is almost impossible for other nations to overcome.
    That is also true. Again though, it's only possible because two people can come together and agree.
  • Interesting discussion. FWIW my perspective of MPs is similar, with the qualification that once you're in, the vision is qualified by two things: (a) the belief that if promoted you could influence outcomes more, and you need to be careful what you say with that in mind and (b) the realisation that if you lose you will have no influence at all. The combination of these factors erodes (without eliminating) the vision and you struggle with your self-image of a realistic idealist. In the process, you seem to your supporters to have been sucked into the system and the Westminster bubble. It is not, in general, that you have been corrupted, but that you are acutely aware of the constraints.

    Jeremy's appeal outside the bubble is partly that he has always completely shrugged off (a) and has never had to worry about (b).

    Re (b) - should Blair have had the likes of Corbyn expelled or deselected when he had the chance? There's a case for it.
  • LucyJones said:

    AndyJS said:

    watford30 said:

    AndyJS said:

    JEO said:

    Seems like a lot of migrants are not happy with Germany and want to keep going to Sweden:

    http://imgur.com/a/oVM14

    Passports in just four years there.

    If this isn't evidence of economic migration rather than refugee migration, I don't know what is frankly.
    Indeed. They've passed through 5 or 6 countries where they're not being bombed or shot at. Clearly not refugees.
    It's understandable what they're doing. If you've made the effort to get to western Europe from Syria or Afghanistan, it makes sense to go the whole hog and attempt to end up in the country with the most generous benefits, most welcoming government, and with the fastest route to an EU passport. Why settle for second-best?
    .....
    The reporter said that most Syrians he had spoken to seemed to think the streets of Northern Europe were paved with gold. All the men were looking forward to being welcomed by "blonde women"... (his words, not mine).
    In contrast to European obsessions with 'dusky maidens'?
    http://www.academia.edu/2904291/The_Dusky_Maiden_and_The_Noble_savage_Conversations_about_archetype_and_fetish_Catherine_Cocker_Fa_a_Fafine_In_the_Manner_of_a_Woman_Shigeyuki_Kihara
  • Plato said:

    More Hodges

    Last week I was talking to a member of the shadow cabinet about Jeremy Corbyn’s impending victory as Labour leader. ‘Forget about coups and resistance movements. There’s only one person who can save the party now — and that’s Tom Watson.’ It’s a common theme: those who had just recently denounced Watson as a fat thug now see him as the party’s only hope of salvation.

    On Saturday, half an hour before Corbyn’s almost certain coronation, Watson will be unveiled as his party’s new deputy leader. He will appear a rather unlikely saviour. His dark suits and heavy jowls give him the appearance less of a political healer than of a low-rent 1970s mafia grunt. There was a time when that was an image Watson would have cultivated — first as a fixer for the right-wing AEEU union, then as a hit man for Gordon Brown. But he is older and more sensible now.

    Or so his colleagues hope... http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/politics/9628562/tom-watsons-strange-journey-from-brownite-hit-man-to-labours-last-peacemaker/


    I have been saying this for weeks. Watson won't win Labour a single new vote, but he could stop Corbyn from destroying the party forever. Unlike Jezza he knows that way it works inside out. Just as crucially, there was no united Corbyn ticket, so the £3ers would not have known who to vote for on the NEC etc.

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    JEO said:

    Re. The 'two camels for a blonde' discussion.

    A big issue here are arranged marriages and resultant dowries, which institutionalises the concept that a woman has a price with which she can be purchased.

    Once that attitude predominates within a culture, women have a monetary value. It's particularly terrible where the complementary concept of a 'dower' is non-existent or weak.

    Sadly, this concept is very wide spread - from India through Eastern Europe to the Middle East.

    Women as chattels to be bought and sold is the sort of cultural practice to be eradicated, but at least the Egyptian camel sellers are paying. In the Indian dowry system the family provides the dowry to the groom in effect giving the woman a negative financial value.

    Of course, many in this country believe that all cultures are equal. A culture that treats women as equal to men isn't "better" than one which assigns women a monetary value, just "different".
    It certainly is a better culture and I have no hesitation in saying so. Some cultures are backward in terms of various forms of bigotry, and the mess that is the middle east is a direct result of that cultures social, economic and political failure which in turn are heavily rooted in Islam.
    I recall an Australian minister saying recently words to the effect that if our culture and values are OK with you then you are welcome. Otherwise stay away.

    The UK would do well to say the same but I suspect it's too late.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited September 2015

    Pro_Rata said:


    (5) A very open mixed economy of investment, avoiding some of the PPI difficulties. So you might build a Severn lagoon with private money, but tell EDF to hop it, we'll build nuclear power stations with public money. Also be fully prepared to build public and sell off, run private where that fits the bill. Same any which way spirit to house building.

    (

    Very interesting.. But tell me , how can the "we'll build nuclear power stations with public money" bit work when the state has little if any experience of designing nuclear power stations in the past 20 years...?

    And your section 2 on welfare does not cover the two largest problems: OAPs living longer with minimal incomes and the poor /unemployed/immigrants..
    Until 2005, we, through BNFL, owned Westinghouse, a nuclear power plant design and engineering business.

    And then the Blair/Brown government decided they were only interested in renewable energy and flogged it to Toshiba for £3.5 billion. Genius.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572
    DavidL said:

    Good piece. DavidL is the sort of open-minded Tory voter who I can really imagine voting Labour if we got a coherent package on these lines together, and he's not alone.

    I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering why, in that case, you are supporting a leadership candidate who will make DavidL and all other sensible people run a million miles away from Labour.
    That was exactly my thought Richard!

    But thanks Nick, all the same.
    Because I didn't feel the other candidates had set out a coherent agenda of the kind that you describe, and I think voters like you are open-minded enough to *consider* Corbyn's agenda, when honed and modified by the party debate that he himself wants.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    I've just started reading a book called Reflections on the Revolution in Europe, I've a feeling it was mentioned on here. Only part way through but it talks of the negative influence of muslims entering Western Countries. I've been reading this site for a good while, there is no doubt that the views on immigration per se are hardening and in general I'd say there's a pretty measured bunch on here.

    I spend a lot of my time among non intellectual (that's condescending) non political types. most of them casually use language that the media would recoil from. Ordinary people, whatever that definition may be, are sick to the back teeth of immigration in general, they have little interest in whether they are asylum seekers, economic migrants, illegal immigrants, non EU citizens etc. They have no idea what Schengen is or who Juncker is, they just sense that what is happening across Europe they don't want to see here.


    Yep,same here,the comment section in my local paper was interesting on the Syrians coming to Bradford.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Via Guido
    In an extraordinary Commons debate last year Jeremy Corbyn argued that we should not “make value judgments” about British citizens who join ISIS and appeared to compare people travelling to fight in Syria with Nelson Mandela. Speaking about British-born terrorists in Syria, Corbyn claimed:

    “There are an awful lot of contradictions surrounding how we decide who is a good fighter and who is a terrorist; who is struggling for liberation and who is a terrorist. There was a time when people involved in Umkhonto we Sizwe in South Africa were known as terrorists; they were later welcomed to this country as freedom fighters. Things can turn full circle.”
  • DavidL said:

    Good piece. DavidL is the sort of open-minded Tory voter who I can really imagine voting Labour if we got a coherent package on these lines together, and he's not alone.

    I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering why, in that case, you are supporting a leadership candidate who will make DavidL and all other sensible people run a million miles away from Labour.
    That was exactly my thought Richard!

    But thanks Nick, all the same.
    Because I didn't feel the other candidates had set out a coherent agenda of the kind that you describe, and I think voters like you are open-minded enough to *consider* Corbyn's agenda, when honed and modified by the party debate that he himself wants.
    The problem is that whilst Corbyn's agenda is coherent, it's also unelectable. Voters will consider it and still be laughing as they vote for a.n.other party in the ballot box.

    You seem to be staking a great deal on the fact that the party will alter Corbyn's agenda. How much has Corbyn altered his agenda over the thirty years he's been an MP? Add in the fact that the party may be a very different beast after this electoral process is finished. If Corbyn wins, expect many of the £3ers from the Greens and others to convert too full membership.
  • DavidL said:

    Good piece. DavidL is the sort of open-minded Tory voter who I can really imagine voting Labour if we got a coherent package on these lines together, and he's not alone.

    I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering why, in that case, you are supporting a leadership candidate who will make DavidL and all other sensible people run a million miles away from Labour.
    That was exactly my thought Richard!

    But thanks Nick, all the same.
    Because I didn't feel the other candidates had set out a coherent agenda of the kind that you describe, and I think voters like you are open-minded enough to *consider* Corbyn's agenda, when honed and modified by the party debate that he himself wants.

    Oh Nick, you are going to be so let down when you find that the British public run a mile from policies advocated by an anti-capitalist class warrior who has failed to unequivocally condemn the activities of the assorted terrorists, anti-semites and enemies of the UK that he has spent 40 years sharing platforms with, and who chairs an organisation that believes the killing of British soldiers was a legitimate response to the invasion of Iraq.

  • Miss Plato, I'm sure that'll go down well.

    Wasn't there some oaf from one paper or another who wrote about joining ISIS as if it were a gap year?
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    DavidL said:

    Good piece. DavidL is the sort of open-minded Tory voter who I can really imagine voting Labour if we got a coherent package on these lines together, and he's not alone.

    I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering why, in that case, you are supporting a leadership candidate who will make DavidL and all other sensible people run a million miles away from Labour.
    That was exactly my thought Richard!

    But thanks Nick, all the same.
    Because I didn't feel the other candidates had set out a coherent agenda of the kind that you describe, and I think voters like you are open-minded enough to *consider* Corbyn's agenda, when honed and modified by the party debate that he himself wants.
    Utterly clueless.
  • DavidL said:

    Good piece. DavidL is the sort of open-minded Tory voter who I can really imagine voting Labour if we got a coherent package on these lines together, and he's not alone.

    I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering why, in that case, you are supporting a leadership candidate who will make DavidL and all other sensible people run a million miles away from Labour.
    That was exactly my thought Richard!

    But thanks Nick, all the same.
    Because I didn't feel the other candidates had set out a coherent agenda of the kind that you describe, and I think voters like you are open-minded enough to *consider* Corbyn's agenda, when honed and modified by the party debate that he himself wants.
    The problem is that whilst Corbyn's agenda is coherent, it's also unelectable. Voters will consider it and still be laughing as they vote for a.n.other party in the ballot box.

    You seem to be staking a great deal on the fact that the party will alter Corbyn's agenda. How much has Corbyn altered his agenda over the thirty years he's been an MP? Add in the fact that the party may be a very different beast after this electoral process is finished. If Corbyn wins, expect many of the £3ers from the Greens and others to convert too full membership.
    Or, it could go the other way, in the sense that the £3ers don't convert, don't join, don't get involved and in fact just completely switch off again as if the job has been done and austerity is over. Corbyn will then be a hollow leader.
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Dair said:

    malcolmg said:

    calum said:
    They are consistent in regurgitating all their old dross. Pieman getting it is a hoot.
    Perhaps they are hoping he can revive their chances with the Efnick vote.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1287302/MSP-Frank-McAveety-forced-resign-dark-dusky-woman-comments.html#ixzz3lGjRmGnb
    This doesn't seem to fit very comfortably with Kezia's 50/50 gender balance policy - or is there something some of these male SLAB stalwarts are not disclosing about their current gender ?
  • This is the best graphic yet on the catastrophe that has engulfed the Labour party.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3005189/ISIS-publishes-booklet-details-safe-houses-routes-Western-wannabe-jihadists-Syria.html
    Islamic State has published a detailed travel guide for would-be recruits with information on how to get to Syria and what they should pack.

    The 50-page manual called Hijrah, meaning 'holy emigration', includes details of safe houses and routes for Western wannabe jihadists and has been compared to a gap year travel guide.

    Aimed specifically at young people, its full title is 'Hijrah to the Islamic State: What to pack up, who to contact and where to go. Stories and more!'

    Published in English, it boasts that ISIS members 'live in Turkey in some peace because Turkey fears revenge attacks', enabling them to help ISIS recruits slip over the border into neighbouring Syria without being caught.

    Miss Plato, I'm sure that'll go down well.

    Wasn't there some oaf from one paper or another who wrote about joining ISIS as if it were a gap year?

  • watford30.. He has always been utterly clueless..no wonder he lost his seat..
  • Mr. T, to use netspeak, that was quite the epic fail on White's part.

    Miss Plato, entirely unsurprising but I doubt the bleating broadcast media will bother to mention it.
  • DavidL said:

    Good piece. DavidL is the sort of open-minded Tory voter who I can really imagine voting Labour if we got a coherent package on these lines together, and he's not alone.

    I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering why, in that case, you are supporting a leadership candidate who will make DavidL and all other sensible people run a million miles away from Labour.
    That was exactly my thought Richard!

    But thanks Nick, all the same.
    Because I didn't feel the other candidates had set out a coherent agenda of the kind that you describe, and I think voters like you are open-minded enough to *consider* Corbyn's agenda, when honed and modified by the party debate that he himself wants.

    Oh Nick, you are going to be so let down when you find that the British public run a mile from policies advocated by an anti-capitalist class warrior who has failed to unequivocally condemn the activities of the assorted terrorists, anti-semites and enemies of the UK that he has spent 40 years sharing platforms with, and who chairs an organisation that believes the killing of British soldiers was a legitimate response to the invasion of Iraq.

    I've said before that there's a small chance that Corbyn's policy platform might be electable, if events were to swing towards him. Combine another financial crash with a Conservative Party mired in sleaze and disunited over Europe, and the population might want to look away from the Thatcherite consensus of the last thirty-five years.

    But the problem is Corbyn himself. The cards could fall Labour's way, just as they did in the mid 1990s. However there are other cards that could really give a Corbyn-led party trouble, and they're down to the massive and obvious defects in his personality.
  • Mr. Jessop, on economics, although his view is bonkers you could be right. But the security issue won't go away.
  • Intelligence will find that quite useful..wonder how much input they had..
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited September 2015
    calum said:

    Dair said:

    malcolmg said:

    calum said:
    They are consistent in regurgitating all their old dross. Pieman getting it is a hoot.
    Perhaps they are hoping he can revive their chances with the Efnick vote.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1287302/MSP-Frank-McAveety-forced-resign-dark-dusky-woman-comments.html#ixzz3lGjRmGnb
    This doesn't seem to fit very comfortably with Kezia's 50/50 gender balance policy - or is there something some of these male SLAB stalwarts are not disclosing about their current gender ?
    It just feeds more strongly into the East/West split of the current round of the SLAB meltdown. The more Kez tries to reform Scottish Labour into a more inclusive and meritorious party (in her mind) the more the Dinosaurs of West Central Scotland will do just the opposite.

    What better way to confront Kez than appointing a gluttenous, leching beast to what is, amazingly, now Scottish Labour's most powerful political position.
  • DavidL said:

    Good piece. DavidL is the sort of open-minded Tory voter who I can really imagine voting Labour if we got a coherent package on these lines together, and he's not alone.

    I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering why, in that case, you are supporting a leadership candidate who will make DavidL and all other sensible people run a million miles away from Labour.
    That was exactly my thought Richard!

    But thanks Nick, all the same.
    Because I didn't feel the other candidates had set out a coherent agenda of the kind that you describe, and I think voters like you are open-minded enough to *consider* Corbyn's agenda, when honed and modified by the party debate that he himself wants.
    The problem is that whilst Corbyn's agenda is coherent, it's also unelectable. Voters will consider it and still be laughing as they vote for a.n.other party in the ballot box.

    You seem to be staking a great deal on the fact that the party will alter Corbyn's agenda. How much has Corbyn altered his agenda over the thirty years he's been an MP? Add in the fact that the party may be a very different beast after this electoral process is finished. If Corbyn wins, expect many of the £3ers from the Greens and others to convert too full membership.
    Or, it could go the other way, in the sense that the £3ers don't convert, don't join, don't get involved and in fact just completely switch off again as if the job has been done and austerity is over. Corbyn will then be a hollow leader.
    Quite possibly. But they have the scent of the blood of the Blairites, who now seem almost more hated than the Conservatives. At least two £3ers I personally know - both Greenies- say they want to join the party if Corbyn wins. One even dreams of the parties merging.

    At which point I coughed politely into my sleeve to hide my grin.
  • Interesting discussion. FWIW my perspective of MPs is similar, with the qualification that once you're in, the vision is qualified by two things: (a) the belief that if promoted you could influence outcomes more, and you need to be careful what you say with that in mind and (b) the realisation that if you lose you will have no influence at all. The combination of these factors erodes (without eliminating) the vision and you struggle with your self-image of a realistic idealist. In the process, you seem to your supporters to have been sucked into the system and the Westminster bubble. It is not, in general, that you have been corrupted, but that you are acutely aware of the constraints.

    Jeremy's appeal outside the bubble is partly that he has always completely shrugged off (a) and has never had to worry about (b).

    Re (b) - should Blair have had the likes of Corbyn expelled or deselected when he had the chance? There's a case for it.
    The problem is not that Corbyn is in the Labour party - all major parties are broad churches. The problem is that he only represents the views of a minority of genuine active Labour members (never mind voters) as far as I can see. That is until you allow tens of thousands of £3 so-called supporters to have the same weight of vote as proper members. If I was a labour member I would be beside myself with anger that this has been allowed to happen.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    JEO said:

    isam said:

    Strange sight on my facebook of a polish friend sharing lots of Britain First anti muslim videos

    I suspect the second generation of Eastern European immigrants will start identifying with British nationality and be very right wing.
    My wife is Bulgarian and we are thinking of starting a family soon. She is pro-business, monarchist, pro-academic selection, pro-tradition and otherwise very centrist.

    I will do my best.
    Comrade, given your testimony you are required to produce a minimum of four children.
    She has an idea in her head that they should all go to Eton.

    I'm trying to dissuade her of the necessity and expense of this. We couldn't afford to send half of one child there. But she is used to a system where academic scholarships allow the cleverest to go to any school in the private or state sector that the parent chooses.
    The HVI Foundation pays for 12 full fee scholarships (academic), there are lots of bursaries for music and art and the Eton Foundation pays up to 1/3 of fees on a discretionary basis to try and make the school as means blind as possible for kids who excel in one discipline or another. (What you find typically is that when the Foundation sponsors a kid they will reach out to certain OEs who are prepared to privately finance worthwhile cases)
  • I like reading Nick Palmer on here, he seems very fair minded. But he is the epitome of a modern labour politician, utterly and completely out of touch.
  • DavidL said:

    Good piece. DavidL is the sort of open-minded Tory voter who I can really imagine voting Labour if we got a coherent package on these lines together, and he's not alone.

    I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering why, in that case, you are supporting a leadership candidate who will make DavidL and all other sensible people run a million miles away from Labour.
    That was exactly my thought Richard!

    But thanks Nick, all the same.
    Because I didn't feel the other candidates had set out a coherent agenda of the kind that you describe, and I think voters like you are open-minded enough to *consider* Corbyn's agenda, when honed and modified by the party debate that he himself wants.
    The problem is that whilst Corbyn's agenda is coherent, it's also unelectable. Voters will consider it and still be laughing as they vote for a.n.other party in the ballot box.

    You seem to be staking a great deal on the fact that the party will alter Corbyn's agenda. How much has Corbyn altered his agenda over the thirty years he's been an MP? Add in the fact that the party may be a very different beast after this electoral process is finished. If Corbyn wins, expect many of the £3ers from the Greens and others to convert too full membership.
    Or, it could go the other way, in the sense that the £3ers don't convert, don't join, don't get involved and in fact just completely switch off again as if the job has been done and austerity is over. Corbyn will then be a hollow leader.
    Quite possibly. But they have the scent of the blood of the Blairites, who now seem almost more hated than the Conservatives. At least two £3ers I personally know - both Greenies- say they want to join the party if Corbyn wins. One even dreams of the parties merging.

    At which point I coughed politely into my sleeve to hide my grin.
    Well it certainly might make sense to have some kind of seats pact between Lab and Greens. Oh wait, Tom Watson is about to be deputy...
  • DavidL said:

    Good piece. DavidL is the sort of open-minded Tory voter who I can really imagine voting Labour if we got a coherent package on these lines together, and he's not alone.

    I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering why, in that case, you are supporting a leadership candidate who will make DavidL and all other sensible people run a million miles away from Labour.
    That was exactly my thought Richard!

    But thanks Nick, all the same.
    Expulsion from our new Tory party not obsessed with EU, Gays etc is not on the agenda, we're too chilled about that sort of thing... unless you go kipper.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Cromwell said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I presume if like OGH you've traded yourself into an all-green outcome, there's not much point getting involved in any last-minute trading except to play up your profits.

    To be honest, I'm much more interested in the Irish Champion Stakes at 6.50pm on Saturday evening which has a stellar cast (if they all run).

    As for London, the oddly irrational Evening Standard, which ran an op-ed piece on Tuesday evening by its owner praising Russian actions supporting Assad in Syria, last night filled space with a piece on "poll of polls" type sampling showing Jowell as the only likely Labour winner in a Mayoral race with Goldsmith.

    The figures in the piece were contradictory and confusing but I had a sense of a big Jowell lead in Inner London balancing out and neutralising a small Goldsmith lead in the outer suburbs.

    Still, a very long way to go as it is nationally - we are just over four months into a sixty month political cycle - the water has barely begun to think about flowing under the bridge which hasn't been built yet. Two years from now and we won't be halfway through the parliament yet everyone on here seems so certain of everything.

    "Events, dear boy, events" was, I believe, the response of a former Prime Minister when asked what worried him most.

    Indeed. It's not inconceivable that the UK will no longer exist in its current form and we'll be outside the EU by 2020.

    Unlikely? Yes, but not as unlikely as I'd have said it would be for Labour to elect Corbyn less than 3 months ago.
    The general population have far more practical common sense than ideological Labour Party voters ....Labour are dying a natural death having outlived their usefulness and their inability to change with the times ; Corbynism is just an admission of defeat , just an acknowledgement that they will no longer try and compete ! the LP are a sinking ship of fools who are showing the Red Flag of ''principle '' before they finally go under

    And yet it is the Labour Party whose membership has increased hugely and the Conservatives who rely on large donations to keep the show on the road.
  • I like reading Nick Palmer on here, he seems very fair minded. But he is the epitome of a modern labour politician, utterly and completely out of touch.

    Perhaps it's more the Kinnock syndrome (great election night rant at the voters) and the electorate who need to come to them...?

  • *Checks outside*

    Ah. Summer's here. Finally.

  • I like reading Nick Palmer on here, he seems very fair minded. But he is the epitome of a modern labour politician, utterly and completely out of touch.

    I have always found Nick to be a very decent bloke in his personal dealings, often under all kinds of abuse. I'm not sure I'd describe him as out-of-touch, which implies he's not aware of public opinion; I get the strong impression that he is. I think it's more that he has strong, if moderately stated, views and is in politics to promote and pursue them whether or not they're in line with public opinion - which is fair enough. As Benn would have said, that's a signpost for you.

    That said, Nick is also tribally Labour (see his stats for voting against the whip, for example), which also implies a certainly flexibility in compromising with his party, if not with the public.
  • Cromwell said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I presume if like OGH you've traded yourself into an all-green outcome, there's not much point getting involved in any last-minute trading except to play up your profits.

    To be honest, I'm much more interested in the Irish Champion Stakes at 6.50pm on Saturday evening which has a stellar cast (if they all run).

    As for London, the oddly irrational Evening Standard, which ran an op-ed piece on Tuesday evening by its owner praising Russian actions supporting Assad in Syria, last night filled space with a piece on "poll of polls" type sampling showing Jowell as the only likely Labour winner in a Mayoral race with Goldsmith.

    The figures in the piece were contradictory and confusing but I had a sense of a big Jowell lead in Inner London balancing out and neutralising a small Goldsmith lead in the outer suburbs.

    Still, a very long way to go as it is nationally - we are just over four months into a sixty month political cycle - the water has barely begun to think about flowing under the bridge which hasn't been built yet. Two years from now and we won't be halfway through the parliament yet everyone on here seems so certain of everything.

    "Events, dear boy, events" was, I believe, the response of a former Prime Minister when asked what worried him most.

    Indeed. It's not inconceivable that the UK will no longer exist in its current form and we'll be outside the EU by 2020.

    Unlikely? Yes, but not as unlikely as I'd have said it would be for Labour to elect Corbyn less than 3 months ago.
    The general population have far more practical common sense than ideological Labour Party voters ....Labour are dying a natural death having outlived their usefulness and their inability to change with the times ; Corbynism is just an admission of defeat , just an acknowledgement that they will no longer try and compete ! the LP are a sinking ship of fools who are showing the Red Flag of ''principle '' before they finally go under

    And yet it is the Labour Party whose membership has increased hugely and the Conservatives who rely on large donations to keep the show on the road.
    Tends to happen when you keep losing and have leadership contests.
  • Cromwell said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I presume if like OGH you've traded yourself into an all-green outcome, there's not much point getting involved in any last-minute trading except to play up your profits.

    To be honest, I'm much more interested in the Irish Champion Stakes at 6.50pm on Saturday evening which has a stellar cast (if they all run).

    As for London, the oddly irrational Evening Standard, which ran an op-ed piece on Tuesday evening by its owner praising Russian actions supporting Assad in Syria, last night filled space with a piece on "poll of polls" type sampling showing Jowell as the only likely Labour winner in a Mayoral race with Goldsmith.

    The figures in the piece were contradictory and confusing but I had a sense of a big Jowell lead in Inner London balancing out and neutralising a small Goldsmith lead in the outer suburbs.

    Still, a very long way to go as it is nationally - we are just over four months into a sixty month political cycle - the water has barely begun to think about flowing under the bridge which hasn't been built yet. Two years from now and we won't be halfway through the parliament yet everyone on here seems so certain of everything.

    "Events, dear boy, events" was, I believe, the response of a former Prime Minister when asked what worried him most.

    Indeed. It's not inconceivable that the UK will no longer exist in its current form and we'll be outside the EU by 2020.

    Unlikely? Yes, but not as unlikely as I'd have said it would be for Labour to elect Corbyn less than 3 months ago.
    The general population have far more practical common sense than ideological Labour Party voters ....Labour are dying a natural death having outlived their usefulness and their inability to change with the times ; Corbynism is just an admission of defeat , just an acknowledgement that they will no longer try and compete ! the LP are a sinking ship of fools who are showing the Red Flag of ''principle '' before they finally go under

    And yet it is the Labour Party whose membership has increased hugely and the Conservatives who rely on large donations to keep the show on the road.
    that's what matters of course..

    Not General Elections or anything. If only there had been one recently...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,529

    LucyJones said:

    AndyJS said:

    watford30 said:

    AndyJS said:

    JEO said:

    Seems like a lot of migrants are not happy with Germany and want to keep going to Sweden:

    http://imgur.com/a/oVM14

    Passports in just four years there.

    If this isn't evidence of economic migration rather than refugee migration, I don't know what is frankly.
    Indeed. They've passed through 5 or 6 countries where they're not being bombed or shot at. Clearly not refugees.
    It's understandable what they're doing. If you've made the effort to get to western Europe from Syria or Afghanistan, it makes sense to go the whole hog and attempt to end up in the country with the most generous benefits, most welcoming government, and with the fastest route to an EU passport. Why settle for second-best?
    .....
    The reporter said that most Syrians he had spoken to seemed to think the streets of Northern Europe were paved with gold. All the men were looking forward to being welcomed by "blonde women"... (his words, not mine).
    In contrast to European obsessions with 'dusky maidens'?
    http://www.academia.edu/2904291/The_Dusky_Maiden_and_The_Noble_savage_Conversations_about_archetype_and_fetish_Catherine_Cocker_Fa_a_Fafine_In_the_Manner_of_a_Woman_Shigeyuki_Kihara
    Have you been following the GCC leadership election then.
  • I like reading Nick Palmer on here, he seems very fair minded. But he is the epitome of a modern labour politician, utterly and completely out of touch.

    Perhaps it's more the Kinnock syndrome (great election night rant at the voters) and the electorate who need to come to them...?
    I read an apocryphal quote attributed to Ed Miliband (remember him?)

    Yes it works in practice but will it stack up in theory?

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040

    DavidL said:

    Good piece. DavidL is the sort of open-minded Tory voter who I can really imagine voting Labour if we got a coherent package on these lines together, and he's not alone.

    I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering why, in that case, you are supporting a leadership candidate who will make DavidL and all other sensible people run a million miles away from Labour.
    That was exactly my thought Richard!

    But thanks Nick, all the same.
    Because I didn't feel the other candidates had set out a coherent agenda of the kind that you describe, and I think voters like you are open-minded enough to *consider* Corbyn's agenda, when honed and modified by the party debate that he himself wants.
    The other candidates were indeed disappointing, especially Cooper who has a brain, but I think you are indulging yourself if you think I would ever vote for a party led by someone like Corbyn. Labour have waved that centre mushy vote goodbye for some time to come.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Another great quote from Hillary about her email server. It's not new, but has been making the rounds of the late night shows as part of a mashup of her comments on it.

    Q - Was the email server secure?

    A - Yes, the property was guarded by the Secret Service.

    Add this to the now well circulated quote by her press secretary that he didn't know what 'wiping a server' meant, and you see what the problem is.

    She can't come clean and answer the server questions because there are no good answers. So she comments on private email accounts and not the server.

    This scandal is the definition of death by a thousand cuts.
  • I like reading Nick Palmer on here, he seems very fair minded. But he is the epitome of a modern labour politician, utterly and completely out of touch.

    Perhaps it's more the Kinnock syndrome (great election night rant at the voters) and the electorate who need to come to them...?
    PMSS - Post Marginal Seat Syndrome.
  • Mr. T, sounds French to me. [The quote, not your Teutonic sales].
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,529
    SeanT said:

    Miss Plato, I'm sure that'll go down well.

    Wasn't there some oaf from one paper or another who wrote about joining ISIS as if it were a gap year?

    It was Michael White, of - TA-DA - the Guardian. He also said, in the same column (published about 18 months ago) that ISIS will "probably not exist in a year's time so we should stop over-reacting"

    Perhaps he had Rogerdamus assisting as an intern that week.
    Sean, question, your JCW is it the latest F56 model and if so do you have the sports auto box. Interested to get opinion on the new auto box.
  • Cromwell said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I presume if like OGH you've traded yourself into an all-green outcome, there's not much point getting involved in any last-minute trading except to play up your profits.

    To be honest, I'm much more interested in the Irish Champion Stakes at 6.50pm on Saturday evening which has a stellar cast (if they all run).

    As for London, the oddly irrational Evening Standard, which ran an op-ed piece on Tuesday evening by its owner praising Russian actions supporting Assad in Syria, last night filled space with a piece on "poll of polls" type sampling showing Jowell as the only likely Labour winner in a Mayoral race with Goldsmith.

    The figures in the piece were contradictory and confusing but I had a sense of a big Jowell lead in Inner London balancing out and neutralising a small Goldsmith lead in the outer suburbs.

    Still, a very long way to go as it is nationally - we are just over four months into a sixty month political cycle - the water has barely begun to think about flowing under the bridge which hasn't been built yet. Two years from now and we won't be halfway through the parliament yet everyone on here seems so certain of everything.

    "Events, dear boy, events" was, I believe, the response of a former Prime Minister when asked what worried him most.

    Indeed. It's not inconceivable that the UK will no longer exist in its current form and we'll be outside the EU by 2020.

    Unlikely? Yes, but not as unlikely as I'd have said it would be for Labour to elect Corbyn less than 3 months ago.
    The general population have far more practical common sense than ideological Labour Party voters ....Labour are dying a natural death having outlived their usefulness and their inability to change with the times ; Corbynism is just an admission of defeat , just an acknowledgement that they will no longer try and compete ! the LP are a sinking ship of fools who are showing the Red Flag of ''principle '' before they finally go under

    And yet it is the Labour Party whose membership has increased hugely and the Conservatives who rely on large donations to keep the show on the road.
    A truer reflection of party membership will be how many remain on the books after GE2020 when not bolstered by cut-priced or free admission.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040

    This is the best graphic yet on the catastrophe that has engulfed the Labour party.
    On the plus side it is not a million miles from my competition entry. If Kendall can just be squeezed down another couple of percent...

  • Countdown to the Corbyn Coronation. Just under 46 hours till we know.

    http://show.nojam.com/a2sV/feature1.php?c=0&b=4

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    felix said:

    If Labour choose Khan it will be almost as big a mistake as Corbyn.

    Almost :-)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Re. The 'two camels for a blonde' discussion.

    A big issue here are arranged marriages and resultant dowries, which institutionalises the concept that a woman has a price with which she can be purchased.

    Once that attitude predominates within a culture, women have a monetary value. It's particularly terrible where the complementary concept of a 'dower' is non-existent or weak.

    Sadly, this concept is very wide spread - from India through Eastern Europe to the Middle East.

    The concept of a dowry is to provide protection for the women. In a society where they have fewer legal rights (eg 19C Britain) the dowry is paid to the father to hold in trust for his daughter. While all the daughter's other assets become the property of her husband in these societies, the dowry remains inalienably hers.

    Still, clearly, outmoded and inequitable but not intended to be a "price" for the woman
  • Floater said:

    felix said:

    If Labour choose Khan it will be almost as big a mistake as Corbyn.

    Almost :-)
    Do we know what time is the result?
  • Mr. L, I can't recall my predictions. I hope the results thread has a summary, or more, of our collective guesses included.
  • DavidL said:

    This is the best graphic yet on the catastrophe that has engulfed the Labour party.
    On the plus side it is not a million miles from my competition entry. If Kendall can just be squeezed down another couple of percent...
    I can't remember my entry to be honest, although certainly not Corbyn that high.
  • SeanT said:

    Ooh, I have a poncey new insult to hurl at Jeremy Corbyn: SOIXANTE-RETARD

    LOL. Or even Soixante et huit. As he would have never have been happier than on the barricades of Paris with the french left.
  • David Herdson: Nick Palmer seems very polite, I've had dealings with labour politicians who were very spiteful, he seems a nice man. However he says:

    and I think voters like you are open-minded enough to *consider* Corbyn's agenda,

    Yep, I've considered Corbyn's agenda and find it lunacy. That is what I mean by out of touch, Corbyn, like the ghastly Russell Brand appeals to the young and the fantasists, for heavens sake most Labour MPs are in meltdown over Corbyn. If your team mates don't rate you there's no chance.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572
    Current trending joke on German social media - a banker, a Bild (=Sun) reader and a refugee sit down at a table with 12 cakes. The banker takes 11, and turns to the Bild reader. "Watch out, that refugee is after your cake!"
  • LucyJonesLucyJones Posts: 651
    edited September 2015
    SeanT said:

    I wonder if Syrian passports are the best investment in the world.

    Buy one for £400. Go to Germany. Get right to stay there, with benefits. Worst case scenario, you can stay there permanently. Best case, you get an EU passport and can go wherever you like.

    Merkel's migration policy is the most stupid decision since Varro looked at Paullus and said "We outnumber them two to one. We're sure to win!"

    Das ist genug fur heute.

    Germany is a wise and brilliant nation.

    In unrelated news:

    Eisige Schwestern has just recorded its FIFTEENTH week in the German top ten bestseller lists.

    http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/spiegel-bestseller-paperback-a-863148.html
    I splashed out £3 in Tesco this morning and treated myself to a book by this S.K. Tremayne woman. Well, I say "treat" - haven't read it yet.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited September 2015

    Mr. L, I can't recall my predictions. I hope the results thread has a summary, or more, of our collective guesses included.

    You can search for your prediction here:

    http://show.nojam.com/a2sY/search.php?b=0

    - Press the search button, type the first few letters of the name, and press GO
  • Cheers, Mr. Hopkins :)

    Reasonably happy with my guesses. (Corbyn 47% on the first ballot).
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited September 2015
    LucyJones said:


    SeanT said:

    I wonder if Syrian passports are the best investment in the world.

    Buy one for £400. Go to Germany. Get right to stay there, with benefits. Worst case scenario, you can stay there permanently. Best case, you get an EU passport and can go wherever you like.

    Merkel's migration policy is the most stupid decision since Varro looked at Paullus and said "We outnumber them two to one. We're sure to win!"

    Das ist genug fur heute.

    Germany is a wise and brilliant nation.

    In unrelated news:

    Eisige Schwestern has just recorded its FIFTEENTH week in the German top ten bestseller lists.

    http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/spiegel-bestseller-paperback-a-863148.html
    I splashed out £3 in Tesco this morning and treated myself to a book by this S.K. Tremayne woman. Well, I say "treat" - haven't read it yet.
    Must have been a tough choice - buy the Tremayne woman's book or join the Labour Party. ;)

    Actually you were robbed - you could have gotten it from amazon UK for 2.64 pounds.
  • Current trending joke on German social media - a banker, a Bild (=Sun) reader and a refugee sit down at a table with 12 cakes. The banker takes 11, and turns to the Bild reader. "Watch out, that refugee is after your cake!"

    Blimey Mr Palmer I've just spent half an hour defending you ;-)

  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    This is the best graphic yet on the catastrophe that has engulfed the Labour party.
    It's a terrible graphic. You can't translate odds to vote shares. Only a mathematics illiterate would do that.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2015
    LucyJones said:


    I splashed out £3 in Tesco this morning and treated myself to a book by this S.K. Tremayne woman. Well, I say "treat" - haven't read it yet.


    I’ve got the ‘E’ version of Ice Twins on my reader which I've been saving for a holiday at the end of this month. - I've got other books too incase it's crap... :lol:
  • Tim_B said:

    LucyJones said:


    SeanT said:

    I wonder if Syrian passports are the best investment in the world.

    Buy one for £400. Go to Germany. Get right to stay there, with benefits. Worst case scenario, you can stay there permanently. Best case, you get an EU passport and can go wherever you like.

    Merkel's migration policy is the most stupid decision since Varro looked at Paullus and said "We outnumber them two to one. We're sure to win!"

    Das ist genug fur heute.

    Germany is a wise and brilliant nation.

    In unrelated news:

    Eisige Schwestern has just recorded its FIFTEENTH week in the German top ten bestseller lists.

    http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/spiegel-bestseller-paperback-a-863148.html
    I splashed out £3 in Tesco this morning and treated myself to a book by this S.K. Tremayne woman. Well, I say "treat" - haven't read it yet.
    Must have been a tough choice - buy the Tremayne woman's book or join the Labour Party. ;)

    With one you get an interesting ride through a fictional world; with the other you get a book.

  • Mr. L, I can't recall my predictions. I hope the results thread has a summary, or more, of our collective guesses included.

    You can search for your prediction here:

    http://show.nojam.com/a2sY/search.php?b=0

    - Press the search button, type the first few letters of the name, and press GO
    "Terry Watson" predicted Corbyn, but gave all four hopefuls 0.00%!
  • Cheers, Mr. Hopkins :)

    Reasonably happy with my guesses. (Corbyn 47% on the first ballot).

    A lower turnout for me means an even greater victory for Corbyn as the Corbynites are more likely to vote than the otherwise uninspiring ABC candidates ...the supporters of Corbyn are burning with the zeal of the converted , or so it seems to me ...I expect Corbyn to win on the first ballot

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Cromwell said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)


    Still, a very long way to go as it is nationally - we are just over four months into a sixty month political cycle - the water has barely begun to think about flowing under the bridge which hasn't been built yet. Two years from now and we won't be halfway through the parliament yet everyone on here seems so certain of everything.

    "Events, dear boy, events" was, I believe, the response of a former Prime Minister when asked what worried him most.

    Indeed. It's not inconceivable that the UK will no longer exist in its current form and we'll be outside the EU by 2020.

    Unlikely? Yes, but not as unlikely as I'd have said it would be for Labour to elect Corbyn less than 3 months ago.
    The general population have far more practical common sense than ideological Labour Party voters ....Labour are dying a natural death having outlived their usefulness and their inability to change with the times ; Corbynism is just an admission of defeat , just an acknowledgement that they will no longer try and compete ! the LP are a sinking ship of fools who are showing the Red Flag of ''principle '' before they finally go under

    And yet it is the Labour Party whose membership has increased hugely and the Conservatives who rely on large donations to keep the show on the road.
    Tends to happen when you keep losing and have leadership contests.
    No party has doubled its membership the way Labour just has. This is an unprecedented event. It might well be the start of a process that destroys Labour as a political contender. Or it might be the exact opposite. I don't know, and I don't believe anyone on here who thinks they do. But the one thing I am sure of is we won't be seeing a rerun of the eighties. The Corbyn voters of 2015 are not the same people as the Bennites of old even if Corbyn himself is. They might well mess things up as badly - but they will do it in a unique way. But it is equally possible that they will learn as they go along how to create a 21st Century mass membership party.
  • Mr. L, I can't recall my predictions. I hope the results thread has a summary, or more, of our collective guesses included.

    You can search for your prediction here:

    http://show.nojam.com/a2sY/search.php?b=0

    - Press the search button, type the first few letters of the name, and press GO
    Brilliant. And it seems I was wrong, I have nearly got Corbyn as high as Ladbrokes. We'll see. My real bets are on Cooper.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    New remains of a species in our genus (homo) have been found:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34192447

    No, don't tell me!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Pathetic BBC response to Panorama Stitch Up

    We have received a wide range of feedback about our coverage of this story. In order to use our TV licence fee resources efficiently, this response aims to answer the key concerns raised, but we apologise in advance if it doesn’t address your specific points in the manner you would prefer.

    In the midst of a hard-fought contest for the Labour leadership, Panorama set out to profile Jeremy Corbyn whose campaign has been the surprise package of the election so far.

    Mr Corbyn was the only one of the four leadership candidates who was interviewed at length for the programme. When criticisms were raised of his policies or his judgement he was given time to respond. The programme also carried extracts from speeches he has made and demonstrated quite clearly the extent of his support, and the enthusiasm of his many supporters. It is hard to think that any viewer could have come away from this programme without understanding the momentum and the passion that Jeremy Corbyn’s campaign for the leadership has generated.

    Naturally, the programme featured prominent Labour politicians who oppose Mr Corbyn’s candidacy: that seems a fair reflection of the way the leadership campaign has divided opinion within the party. And, when we looked for voices to speak in support of Mr Corbyn, we chose quite deliberately to interview people who are not mainstream politicians – people like the comedian Grainne Maguire - because, again, that seems a fair reflection of a campaign in which Jeremy Corbyn has drawn strength and support from outside the Labour ‘establishment’.

    By their nature, election campaigns for the leadership of political parties are moments of heightened sensitivity, so we knew that Panorama's judgements about balance and fairness in making this film would be sharply scrutinised. We sought to be fair in the way we allocated time within the programme to reflect opinions supportive of Jeremy Corbyn and opposed to him; in allowing him to answer as fully as possible any criticisms that were raised; and in representing the extraordinary campaign that has developed around him.

    There is strong opposition within the Labour Party to the idea of Jeremy Corbyn as its potential leader. We were bound to represent that within our programme, alongside his strong support. In the round, we hope we got the balance right.

    Kind Regards

    BBC Complaints
  • Mr. K, it's true. It's been dubbed Homo Simpson.
  • I’ve got the ‘E’ version of Ice Twins on my reader which I've been saving for a holiday at the end of this month. - I've got other books too incase it's crap... :lol:

    Ditch the last chapter in favour of this superior replacement:

    http://www.microapl.com/Partner/IceTwinsAlternativeEnding.pdf
  • Cromwell said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)


    Still, a very long way to go as it is nationally - we are just over four months into a sixty month political cycle - the water has barely begun to think about flowing under the bridge which hasn't been built yet. Two years from now and we won't be halfway through the parliament yet everyone on here seems so certain of everything.

    "Events, dear boy, events" was, I believe, the response of a former Prime Minister when asked what worried him most.

    Indeed. It's not inconceivable that the UK will no longer exist in its current form and we'll be outside the EU by 2020.

    Unlikely? Yes, but not as unlikely as I'd have said it would be for Labour to elect Corbyn less than 3 months ago.
    The general population have far more practical common sense than ideological Labour Party voters ....Labour are dying a natural death having outlived their usefulness and their inability to change with the times ; Corbynism is just an admission of defeat , just an acknowledgement that they will no longer try and compete ! the LP are a sinking ship of fools who are showing the Red Flag of ''principle '' before they finally go under

    And yet it is the Labour Party whose membership has increased hugely and the Conservatives who rely on large donations to keep the show on the road.
    Tends to happen when you keep losing and have leadership contests.
    No party has doubled its membership the way Labour just has. This is an unprecedented event. It might well be the start of a process that destroys Labour as a political contender. Or it might be the exact opposite. I don't know, and I don't believe anyone on here who thinks they do. But the one thing I am sure of is we won't be seeing a rerun of the eighties. The Corbyn voters of 2015 are not the same people as the Bennites of old even if Corbyn himself is. They might well mess things up as badly - but they will do it in a unique way. But it is equally possible that they will learn as they go along how to create a 21st Century mass membership party.
    I wonder why no one has attempted to double their membership in the way Labour has before now? And also - £3ers are not members, they are voters in the "open" primary.
  • shadsyshadsy Posts: 289
    JEO said:

    This is the best graphic yet on the catastrophe that has engulfed the Labour party.
    It's a terrible graphic. You can't translate odds to vote shares. Only a mathematics illiterate would do that.
    Except that's not what we did. We've got four separate under/over markets on the four candidates' vote shares.
  • David Herdson: Nick Palmer seems very polite, I've had dealings with labour politicians who were very spiteful, he seems a nice man. However he says:

    and I think voters like you are open-minded enough to *consider* Corbyn's agenda,

    Yep, I've considered Corbyn's agenda and find it lunacy. That is what I mean by out of touch, Corbyn, like the ghastly Russell Brand appeals to the young and the fantasists, for heavens sake most Labour MPs are in meltdown over Corbyn. If your team mates don't rate you there's no chance.

    Too true , the so called young Facebook users who are supporting Corbyn are voting for him on emotion using a similar criteria they use when voting on the X Factor ...I wonder if they even recognise the difference in gravitas between voting in politics and voting in entertainment ?
  • Current trending joke on German social media - a banker, a Bild (=Sun) reader and a refugee sit down at a table with 12 cakes. The banker takes 11, and turns to the Bild reader. "Watch out, that refugee is after your cake!"

    There is a serious point here though. If the banker has taken 11 of the 12 chairs, would you not be surprised if the Bild reader and the refugee come to blows over the remaining one? Or indeed that they jointly disappropriate the banker of her 11?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,529
    SeanT said:

    malcolmg said:

    SeanT said:

    Miss Plato, I'm sure that'll go down well.

    Wasn't there some oaf from one paper or another who wrote about joining ISIS as if it were a gap year?

    It was Michael White, of - TA-DA - the Guardian. He also said, in the same column (published about 18 months ago) that ISIS will "probably not exist in a year's time so we should stop over-reacting"

    Perhaps he had Rogerdamus assisting as an intern that week.
    Sean, question, your JCW is it the latest F56 model and if so do you have the sports auto box. Interested to get opinion on the new auto box.
    Yes, and yes, I've got the new sports auto box. Never had an automatic before, thought I'd miss the gear changing (there are paddles if you need them) but I don't.

    It's a fantastic car. A little uglier than the old Mini, but ooooh, very fast and rorty, and hugely amusing to drive.
    I am seriously tempted to get one as my fun car.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2015
    The Michael White article was published a year and two days before British drones killed Reeyad Khan, and had the sign off

    'Will we still be talking about Isis in a year? I may be wrong, but I doubt it. Here's hoping.'

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/19/isis-islamic-state-threat-short-lived

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Current trending joke on German social media - a banker, a Bild (=Sun) reader and a refugee sit down at a table with 12 cakes. The banker takes 11, and turns to the Bild reader. "Watch out, that refugee is after your cake!"

    There is a serious point here though. If the banker has taken 11 of the 12 chairs, would you not be surprised if the Bild reader and the refugee come to blows over the remaining one? Or indeed that they jointly disappropriate the banker of her 11?
    No, the refugee will walk away, and take all the cakes off a Swedish table.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And Mr Dancer

    http://show.nojam.com/a2sY/search.php?b=0

    DavidL said:

    This is the best graphic yet on the catastrophe that has engulfed the Labour party.
    On the plus side it is not a million miles from my competition entry. If Kendall can just be squeezed down another couple of percent...
    I can't remember my entry to be honest, although certainly not Corbyn that high.
  • Charles said:

    Re. The 'two camels for a blonde' discussion.

    A big issue here are arranged marriages and resultant dowries, which institutionalises the concept that a woman has a price with which she can be purchased.

    Once that attitude predominates within a culture, women have a monetary value. It's particularly terrible where the complementary concept of a 'dower' is non-existent or weak.

    Sadly, this concept is very wide spread - from India through Eastern Europe to the Middle East.

    The concept of a dowry is to provide protection for the women. In a society where they have fewer legal rights (eg 19C Britain) the dowry is paid to the father to hold in trust for his daughter. While all the daughter's other assets become the property of her husband in these societies, the dowry remains inalienably hers.

    Still, clearly, outmoded and inequitable but not intended to be a "price" for the woman
    Not 'intended', but that's the way it's often used. As I said, it's the perception such a process allows. 'How much is that woman worth?' in a way that would never be asked of a man.

    The dower (or meher in Islam) was meant to provide care for a wife, by the husband.
  • Both. But fancy sending that to her.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040

    DavidL said:

    Good piece. DavidL is the sort of open-minded Tory voter who I can really imagine voting Labour if we got a coherent package on these lines together, and he's not alone.

    I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering why, in that case, you are supporting a leadership candidate who will make DavidL and all other sensible people run a million miles away from Labour.
    That was exactly my thought Richard!

    But thanks Nick, all the same.
    Expulsion from our new Tory party not obsessed with EU, Gays etc is not on the agenda, we're too chilled about that sort of thing... unless you go kipper.
    Phew, that's a relief.

    Actually a fiscally dry, socially liberal Tory party not obsessed with the EU, gays etc (to give it its full title) could do a lot worse than seek to make progress on a number of items on that agenda and leave Labour wailing away in some alternative world with remarkably few voters (in exactly the way that Blair did to the Tories).
  • Both. But fancy sending that to her.

    The funniest thing about it is that the lady works at the chambers of Michael Mansfield QC. You'd have thought that would flag up a bloody great Danger! Here be Guardianistas! sign.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited September 2015
    A shorter version

    Pathetic BBC response to Panorama Stitch Up

    We have received a wide range of feedback about our coverage of this story...

    And we decided we were right.


    Kind Regards

    BBC Complaints

  • DavidL said:

    Good piece. DavidL is the sort of open-minded Tory voter who I can really imagine voting Labour if we got a coherent package on these lines together, and he's not alone.

    I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering why, in that case, you are supporting a leadership candidate who will make DavidL and all other sensible people run a million miles away from Labour.
    That was exactly my thought Richard!

    But thanks Nick, all the same.
    Because I didn't feel the other candidates had set out a coherent agenda of the kind that you describe, and I think voters like you are open-minded enough to *consider* Corbyn's agenda, when honed and modified by the party debate that he himself wants.
    The problem is that whilst Corbyn's agenda is coherent, it's also unelectable. Voters will consider it and still be laughing as they vote for a.n.other party in the ballot box.

    You seem to be staking a great deal on the fact that the party will alter Corbyn's agenda. How much has Corbyn altered his agenda over the thirty years he's been an MP? Add in the fact that the party may be a very different beast after this electoral process is finished. If Corbyn wins, expect many of the £3ers from the Greens and others to convert too full membership.
    Or, it could go the other way, in the sense that the £3ers don't convert, don't join, don't get involved and in fact just completely switch off again as if the job has been done and austerity is over. Corbyn will then be a hollow leader.
    That's EXACTLY what will happen , especially with young folks with a short attention span and little knowledge of politics ...this is what I call X Factor voters ...both emotional and gormless
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Cromwell said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)


    Still, a very long way to go as it is nationally - we are just over four months into a sixty month political cycle - the water has barely begun to think about flowing under the bridge which hasn't been built yet. Two years from now and we won't be halfway through the parliament yet everyone on here seems so certain of everything.

    "Events, dear boy, events" was, I believe, the response of a former Prime Minister when asked what worried him most.

    Indeed. It's not inconceivable that the UK will no longer exist in its current form and we'll be outside the EU by 2020.

    Unlikely? Yes, but not as unlikely as I'd have said it would be for Labour to elect Corbyn less than 3 months ago.
    The general population have far more practical common sense than ideological Labour Party voters ....Labour are dying a natural death having outlived their usefulness and their inability to change with the times ; Corbynism is just an admission of defeat , just an acknowledgement that they will no longer try and compete ! the LP are a sinking ship of fools who are showing the Red Flag of ''principle '' before they finally go under

    And yet it is the Labour Party whose membership has increased hugely and the Conservatives who rely on large donations to keep the show on the road.
    Tends to happen when you keep losing and have leadership contests.
    No party has doubled its membership the way Labour just has. This is an unprecedented event. It might well be the start of a process that destroys Labour as a political contender. Or it might be the exact opposite. I don't know, and I don't believe anyone on here who thinks they do. But the one thing I am sure of is we won't be seeing a rerun of the eighties. The Corbyn voters of 2015 are not the same people as the Bennites of old even if Corbyn himself is. They might well mess things up as badly - but they will do it in a unique way. But it is equally possible that they will learn as they go along how to create a 21st Century mass membership party.
    I wonder why no one has attempted to double their membership in the way Labour has before now? And also - £3ers are not members, they are voters in the "open" primary.
    The details are important. The £3 votes only count if 50,000 are cast. I don't think the framers seriously thought that it would ever actually happen. But as it is, the experiment is running and we can all see how it turns out.
  • Cromwell said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)


    Still, a very long way to go as it is nationally - we are just over four months into a sixty month political cycle - the water has barely begun to think about flowing under the bridge which hasn't been built yet. Two years from now and we won't be halfway through the parliament yet everyone on here seems so certain of everything.

    "Events, dear boy, events" was, I believe, the response of a former Prime Minister when asked what worried him most.

    Indeed. It's not inconceivable that the UK will no longer exist in its current form and we'll be outside the EU by 2020.

    Unlikely? Yes, but not as unlikely as I'd have said it would be for Labour to elect Corbyn less than 3 months ago.
    The general population have far more practical common sense than ideological Labour Party voters ....Labour are dying a natural death having outlived their usefulness and their inability to change with the times ; Corbynism is just an admission of defeat , just an acknowledgement that they will no longer try and compete ! the LP are a sinking ship of fools who are showing the Red Flag of ''principle '' before they finally go under

    And yet it is the Labour Party whose membership has increased hugely and the Conservatives who rely on large donations to keep the show on the road.
    Tends to happen when you keep losing and have leadership contests.
    No party has doubled its membership the way Labour just has. This is an unprecedented event. It might well be the start of a process that destroys Labour as a political contender. Or it might be the exact opposite. I don't know, and I don't believe anyone on here who thinks they do. But the one thing I am sure of is we won't be seeing a rerun of the eighties. The Corbyn voters of 2015 are not the same people as the Bennites of old even if Corbyn himself is. They might well mess things up as badly - but they will do it in a unique way. But it is equally possible that they will learn as they go along how to create a 21st Century mass membership party.
    I wonder why no one has attempted to double their membership in the way Labour has before now? And also - £3ers are not members, they are voters in the "open" primary.
    Nein! We are "registered supporters"!
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited September 2015
    An AUTOMATIC sports car.. The world is coming to an end. If it aint got proper gears with a proper gearstick it aint a sports car... well not as far as I am concerned.

  • Both. But fancy sending that to her.

    So you're implying he should have gone to Specsavers?
  • An AUTOMATIC sports car.. The world is coming to an end. If it aint got gears it aint a sports car... well not as far as I am concerned

    I haven't driven a Manual since my driving test in 1997...
  • If a Corbynmania surge gives Khan a narrow victory over Jowell and then he loses to a Tory it will be a double disaster for Labour ...and yet it could happen ; I feel much more confident predicting a Corbyn first ballot win than predicting a Jowell victory
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited September 2015
    WRT this woman lawyer. It is a reminder to all men , that wherefore there be roses, there also be thorns.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    SeanT said:

    malcolmg said:

    SeanT said:

    Miss Plato, I'm sure that'll go down well.

    Wasn't there some oaf from one paper or another who wrote about joining ISIS as if it were a gap year?

    It was Michael White, of - TA-DA - the Guardian. He also said, in the same column (published about 18 months ago) that ISIS will "probably not exist in a year's time so we should stop over-reacting"

    Perhaps he had Rogerdamus assisting as an intern that week.
    Sean, question, your JCW is it the latest F56 model and if so do you have the sports auto box. Interested to get opinion on the new auto box.
    Yes, and yes, I've got the new sports auto box. Never had an automatic before, thought I'd miss the gear changing (there are paddles if you need them) but I don't.

    It's a fantastic car. A little uglier than the old Mini, but ooooh, very fast and rorty, and hugely amusing to drive.
    Automatics are great - it takes one of the real pains out of in town driving. And of course there's always the kick down if you want that extra performance when needed.
  • You call that sexual harassment?
  • SeanT said:

    Endings are very hard. That's pretty good, but you'd irritate a lot of readers who demand more closure, and many would be angry that it ended without the mother or father's point of view, and more explanation of what happened, Still others would want more redemption.

    I was trying to provide sufficient closure and explanation without making it too pat (which is why I stuck in some heavy hints), whilst leaving a little bit of uncertainty and mystery. I thought your ending was a bit flat after the tension build-up leading to it, and rather too much like a report explaining what had happened rather than a storyteller showing us what happened.
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