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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tomorrow we might get an indication if Corbynmania is all m

SystemSystem Posts: 11,697
edited September 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tomorrow we might get an indication if Corbynmania is all mouth and no ballots

Assuming no more problems, sometime on Friday Labour will announce who has won the race to be their candidate for London Mayor. It could be that the result of this race could help be a pointer to the Labour leadership result.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,902
    Well, at least they can't say politics is dull.


    (Unless you're a Lib Dem)
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    If Labour choose Khan it will be almost as big a mistake as Corbyn.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,948
    Jonathan said:

    Well, at least they can't say politics is dull.


    (Unless you're a Lib Dem)

    No news is good news as far as they're concerned?
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Jowell is a no brainer for this leadership contest, even if she does say ridiculous things about women on billboards. If they pick anyone but her it will be damning for the Labour Party.
  • Options
    FPT: Mr. JEO, quite. So-called English votes for English laws, as the proposals stand, offer nothing of the sort.
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Come on Sadiq! That 33/1 has my name on it.
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    I think a Khan victory implies a Corbyn victory, but a Jowell one does not so strongly imply an ABC one.

    I do better with Khan... (and I'd be pleased as a Tory)
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    Mr. Rabbit, there'd be an anti-white rabbit quota, though :p
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @paulwaugh: William Hill expecting "six figure clobbering" from @Corbyn4Leader win: "We decided to offer the insulting no-hoper odds of 200/1 initially"
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    Is David Beckham standing?
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    I know a lot of self-employed natural Tory voters in London who are going to be furious next April when their accountants tell them quite how much more tax they are going to be paying, I wonder if that could have a small but nonetheless significant impact.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Pedant point re headline.

    In the fifties, the phrase was "all mouth and trousers", meaning all talk and assumption of authority, but nothing else.

    Mouth = talk, and trousers meant maleness i.e. assumption of authority. But that's all there was.

    "All mouth and no trousers" would mean a talkative person who made no assumption about his right to give orders. Clearly that isn't what was meant.

    It's become confused with "Fur coat and no knickers." which makes sense in a different way.


  • Options
    Roger said:

    Is David Beckham standing?

    Just what I thought!
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Being very rich and very dim, I'd have thought he'd be a nailed-on Tory.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    JWisemann said:

    I know a lot of self-employed natural Tory voters in London who are going to be furious next April when their accountants tell them quite how much more tax they are going to be paying, I wonder if that could have a small but nonetheless significant impact.

    Until they look at the Corbyn led option.
  • Options
    I take it that (other than the very indirect flag of the mayoralty selection) there will be no early warnings of how well Corbyn has done until the result is actually declared?

    I supposed I could stay glued to Betfair and watch what it does on Friday night and early Saturday morning, but that is neither productive nor reliable.
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    watford30 said:

    JWisemann said:

    I know a lot of self-employed natural Tory voters in London who are going to be furious next April when their accountants tell them quite how much more tax they are going to be paying, I wonder if that could have a small but nonetheless significant impact.

    Until they look at the Corbyn led option.
    I'm not saying they'll vote labour, but they won't be voting Tory either.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Edit to previous comment ...

    In the fifties, usually said by a woman of a man assuming authority because of his sex.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,971
    "It may be that Lady Jowell’s name recognition and association with the Olympics might trump that apparent liability. Were Corbyn not to win I think one of the reasons is that some his supporters didn’t turn out to vote like the lazy Labour supporters that some believe explains in part the polling failure at the general election."

    Reading that has given me a headache
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    I think a Khan victory implies a Corbyn victory, but a Jowell one does not so strongly imply an ABC one.

    I do better with Khan... (and I'd be pleased as a Tory)

    I would agree with all of that.
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    JWisemann said:

    watford30 said:

    JWisemann said:

    I know a lot of self-employed natural Tory voters in London who are going to be furious next April when their accountants tell them quite how much more tax they are going to be paying, I wonder if that could have a small but nonetheless significant impact.

    Until they look at the Corbyn led option.
    I'm not saying they'll vote labour, but they won't be voting Tory either.
    Politics is a relative game. You only have to be sufficiently better than the alternative(s) to motivate someone to vote for you. Obviously, it's better if there are positive reasons too but they're not necessary never mind essential.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    "A victory for Baroness Jowell might give hope to the Anyone But Corbyn movement" TSE

    On the other hand The Mayoral election is very different from the Leadership election that whoever comes out top, make no difference at all.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Plato said:
    The Reds out in force Sunday. Toast anyone?
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,883
    Morning all :)

    I presume if like OGH you've traded yourself into an all-green outcome, there's not much point getting involved in any last-minute trading except to play up your profits.

    To be honest, I'm much more interested in the Irish Champion Stakes at 6.50pm on Saturday evening which has a stellar cast (if they all run).

    As for London, the oddly irrational Evening Standard, which ran an op-ed piece on Tuesday evening by its owner praising Russian actions supporting Assad in Syria, last night filled space with a piece on "poll of polls" type sampling showing Jowell as the only likely Labour winner in a Mayoral race with Goldsmith.

    The figures in the piece were contradictory and confusing but I had a sense of a big Jowell lead in Inner London balancing out and neutralising a small Goldsmith lead in the outer suburbs.

    Still, a very long way to go as it is nationally - we are just over four months into a sixty month political cycle - the water has barely begun to think about flowing under the bridge which hasn't been built yet. Two years from now and we won't be halfway through the parliament yet everyone on here seems so certain of everything.

    "Events, dear boy, events" was, I believe, the response of a former Prime Minister when asked what worried him most.
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082

    JWisemann said:

    watford30 said:

    JWisemann said:

    I know a lot of self-employed natural Tory voters in London who are going to be furious next April when their accountants tell them quite how much more tax they are going to be paying, I wonder if that could have a small but nonetheless significant impact.

    Until they look at the Corbyn led option.
    I'm not saying they'll vote labour, but they won't be voting Tory either.
    Politics is a relative game. You only have to be sufficiently better than the alternative(s) to motivate someone to vote for you. Obviously, it's better if there are positive reasons too but they're not necessary never mind essential.
    These people are already/ will be actively angry with the Tory party.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,389
    JWisemann said:

    I know a lot of self-employed natural Tory voters in London who are going to be furious next April when their accountants tell them quite how much more tax they are going to be paying, I wonder if that could have a small but nonetheless significant impact.

    self-employed natural Tory voters don't seem likely members of your posse, J.
  • Options

    I take it that (other than the very indirect flag of the mayoralty selection) there will be no early warnings of how well Corbyn has done until the result is actually declared?

    I supposed I could stay glued to Betfair and watch what it does on Friday night and early Saturday morning, but that is neither productive nor reliable.

    But did you see Yvette Cooper's glum face at Wednesday's PMQT ?....she is clearly not thinking that she's on the verge of becoming Labour leader ...I bet she's already had confirmation that Corbyn is way ahead and almost certain to win on the first ballot

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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    JWisemann said:

    watford30 said:

    JWisemann said:

    I know a lot of self-employed natural Tory voters in London who are going to be furious next April when their accountants tell them quite how much more tax they are going to be paying, I wonder if that could have a small but nonetheless significant impact.

    Until they look at the Corbyn led option.
    I'm not saying they'll vote labour, but they won't be voting Tory either.
    Politics is a relative game. You only have to be sufficiently better than the alternative(s) to motivate someone to vote for you. Obviously, it's better if there are positive reasons too but they're not necessary never mind essential.
    Anyone standing for Labour will be painted with the Corbyn brush.

    And the LibDem option is Caroline Pidgeon. 'Who?' ask millions of Londoners.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,354

    I think a Khan victory implies a Corbyn victory, but a Jowell one does not so strongly imply an ABC one.

    I do better with Khan... (and I'd be pleased as a Tory)

    The London selection was much less politicised so members will be more inclined to choose whoever they think will win, which polls suggest is Jowell. That said, I think that Corbyn name-checking a Khan policy at one point will have given some of his supporters a nudge. I think it'll be quite close between the two (the others have zero chance IMO, though I voted Wolmar in the nomination stage).
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    On topic (roughly), if there is a legal challenge to the Labour leadership election then that will have to affect both the Deputy race and the London nomination too given that they're using the same electorate (subject to geographic matters). So whoever it is, it might not be.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Jonathan said:

    Well, at least they can't say politics is dull.


    (Unless you're a Lib Dem)

    Who are they?



    * Yes, @MrsB, I'm trolling you. Personally.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    On topic (roughly), if there is a legal challenge to the Labour leadership election then that will have to affect both the Deputy race and the London nomination too given that they're using the same electorate (subject to geographic matters). So whoever it is, it might not be.

    So it's "Through the Looking Glass" time. This gets weirder and weirder.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,289
    We're useless, useless, absolutely useless...get that Spitting Image song ready for Corbyn's coronation.
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    Cromwell said:

    I take it that (other than the very indirect flag of the mayoralty selection) there will be no early warnings of how well Corbyn has done until the result is actually declared?

    I supposed I could stay glued to Betfair and watch what it does on Friday night and early Saturday morning, but that is neither productive nor reliable.

    But did you see Yvette Cooper's glum face at Wednesday's PMQT ?....she is clearly not thinking that she's on the verge of becoming Labour leader ...I bet she's already had confirmation that Corbyn is way ahead and almost certain to win on the first ballot

    I agree, I think we would be hearing different mood music if it was ABC.

    I think it'll be closer than originally thought, but I don't see any change that he'll not make it.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    JWisemann said:

    These people are already/ will be actively angry with the Tory party.

    You think the self-employed and small businesses will vote for Corbyn?
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,289
    MikeK said:

    Plato said:
    The Reds out in force Sunday. Toast anyone?
    Will it have black borders all round the front page?

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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Well me and my wife both run small businesses and are voting for Corbyn, but I think there will be a not insignificant number who might have voted Tory but won't as a result of this move. They feel betrayed.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    watford30 said:

    Anyone standing for Labour will be painted with the Corbyn brush.

    It won't even be painting. It will be entirely legitimate questions about whether or not they agree with his barmy views. Either way it will be difficult for candidates to deal with.
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    CD13 said:

    Pedant point re headline.

    In the fifties, the phrase was "all mouth and trousers", meaning all talk and assumption of authority, but nothing else.

    Mouth = talk, and trousers meant maleness i.e. assumption of authority. But that's all there was.

    "All mouth and no trousers" would mean a talkative person who made no assumption about his right to give orders. Clearly that isn't what was meant.

    It's become confused with "Fur coat and no knickers." which makes sense in a different way.

    While the original may have been all mouth and trousers this is one instance where the evolution of the term makes more sense in today's society. Trousers in the fifties may have been understood to mean what you have described but nowadays "no trousers" is a rather crude and deliberate implication of a lack of a lack of masculinity to mean a lack of follow through.

    It is a rather ruder version than the original but it makes more sense today.
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    glw said:

    watford30 said:

    Anyone standing for Labour will be painted with the Corbyn brush.

    It won't even be painting. It will be entirely legitimate questions about whether or not they agree with his barmy views. Either way it will be difficult for candidates to deal with.
    Except his views by and large are pretty mainstream - on many things the public agree with him.

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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    I wonder whether a Corbyn victory will mobilize street protests as the socialist victory did in France. It's always easier to take to the streets when there is a mainstream political party onside. But I'm not sure he's a firebrand in the Benn mould and anyway maybe too old
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    isamisam Posts: 40,971
    Strange sight on my facebook of a polish friend sharing lots of Britain First anti muslim videos
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    All the evidence is that this race is very close. So the "purge" (and even the alleged missing ballots) might have changed this result, whilst probably not stopping Corbyn.

    I'd assume Sadiq is far too sensible to try to overturn the result, but a narrow Jowell victory would be tainted and might cause issues with the unions and some of the activists.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,389
    glw said:

    watford30 said:

    Anyone standing for Labour will be painted with the Corbyn brush.

    It won't even be painting. It will be entirely legitimate questions about whether or not they agree with his barmy views. Either way it will be difficult for candidates to deal with.
    yes but London is a special case. It is a marquee office and, as has been proven recently, the more maverick the better, short of being absolutely batshit dangerous crazy (talking to you, Diane).
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    My take on the Labour Mayoral race is that Tessa Jowell will win for the following reason

    Unlike the LP leadership race where none of the 4 candidates have any real chance of winning in 2020 , Labour is the favourite to win the Mayoral race under Jowell

    The Labour voters don't mind taking a risk with Corbyn because they feel they are going to be on the losing side anyway and figure (wrongly ) that they haven't much to lose ...it's OK to be ''principled losers ''

    But the London Mayoral race is quite different insomuch they have a great deal to lose by rejecting the best candidate and taking a principled risk with a lessor candidate like Khan

    Indeed , it seems to me that pragmatism will override ''principle '' in this case and that the lure of victory will prevail ?
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    New remains of a species in our genus (homo) have been found:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34192447
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    Roger said:

    I wonder whether a Corbyn victory will mobilize street protests as the socialist victory did in France. It's always easier to take to the streets when there is a mainstream political party onside. But I'm not sure he's a firebrand in the Benn mould and anyway maybe too old

    I expect lots of street protests over the next 5 years. It's what the left do when they're losing.
  • Options

    I think a Khan victory implies a Corbyn victory, but a Jowell one does not so strongly imply an ABC one.

    I do better with Khan... (and I'd be pleased as a Tory)

    The London selection was much less politicised so members will be more inclined to choose whoever they think will win, which polls suggest is Jowell. That said, I think that Corbyn name-checking a Khan policy at one point will have given some of his supporters a nudge. I think it'll be quite close between the two (the others have zero chance IMO, though I voted Wolmar in the nomination stage).
    No offence if I've misunderstood but I thought you were from Nottingham so why are you voting in a London election? I thought the London nomination was for Labour supporting Londeners only, is it open to everyone?
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    isam said:

    Strange sight on my facebook of a polish friend sharing lots of Britain First anti muslim videos

    I suspect the second generation of Eastern European immigrants will start identifying with British nationality and be very right wing.
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    I expect a narrow victory for Jowell and a crushing victory for Corbyn
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    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,977
    Found Ashcrofts polling very interesting this morning. Labour loyalists want clearer principles rather than unnecessarily wanting to win an election. Found the focus group stuff on why people voted Tory Quite enlightening too- seems they were some way successful in capturing the centre ground. Blair also not quite as toxic out in the wider electorate - ties in closely to those newsnight focus groups.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    I think a Khan victory implies a Corbyn victory, but a Jowell one does not so strongly imply an ABC one.

    I do better with Khan... (and I'd be pleased as a Tory)

    The London selection was much less politicised so members will be more inclined to choose whoever they think will win, which polls suggest is Jowell. That said, I think that Corbyn name-checking a Khan policy at one point will have given some of his supporters a nudge. I think it'll be quite close between the two (the others have zero chance IMO, though I voted Wolmar in the nomination stage).
    No offence if I've misunderstood but I thought you were from Nottingham so why are you voting in a London election? I thought the London nomination was for Labour supporting Londeners only, is it open to everyone?
    Nick lives in Islington most of the time IIRC.
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Seems like a lot of migrants are not happy with Germany and want to keep going to Sweden:

    http://imgur.com/a/oVM14

    Passports in just four years there.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,971
    edited September 2015
    JEO said:

    isam said:

    Strange sight on my facebook of a polish friend sharing lots of Britain First anti muslim videos

    I suspect the second generation of Eastern European immigrants will start identifying with British nationality and be very right wing.
    Very small sample but two polish girls I know (that don't know each other) seem to fit that bill. I asked one how her night in Camden (Shaka Zulu) was and she said "Terrible, no white people at all"... The other is posting videos of muslims destroying soldiers graves on fb
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2015
    Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in the Telegraph:

    "Europe faces political war on two fronts as backlash builds
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The EU's Eastern states shocked to lose their sovereignty over borders, just as southern Europe lost economic sovereignty by joining the euro."


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11854259/Europe-faces-political-war-on-two-fronts-as-backlash-builds.html
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    JEO said:

    Seems like a lot of migrants are not happy with Germany and want to keep going to Sweden:

    http://imgur.com/a/oVM14

    Passports in just four years there.

    Lots of angry, aggressive, criminal young men. Just what we need.
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    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I presume if like OGH you've traded yourself into an all-green outcome, there's not much point getting involved in any last-minute trading except to play up your profits.

    To be honest, I'm much more interested in the Irish Champion Stakes at 6.50pm on Saturday evening which has a stellar cast (if they all run).

    As for London, the oddly irrational Evening Standard, which ran an op-ed piece on Tuesday evening by its owner praising Russian actions supporting Assad in Syria, last night filled space with a piece on "poll of polls" type sampling showing Jowell as the only likely Labour winner in a Mayoral race with Goldsmith.

    The figures in the piece were contradictory and confusing but I had a sense of a big Jowell lead in Inner London balancing out and neutralising a small Goldsmith lead in the outer suburbs.

    Still, a very long way to go as it is nationally - we are just over four months into a sixty month political cycle - the water has barely begun to think about flowing under the bridge which hasn't been built yet. Two years from now and we won't be halfway through the parliament yet everyone on here seems so certain of everything.

    "Events, dear boy, events" was, I believe, the response of a former Prime Minister when asked what worried him most.

    Indeed. It's not inconceivable that the UK will no longer exist in its current form and we'll be outside the EU by 2020.

    Unlikely? Yes, but not as unlikely as I'd have said it would be for Labour to elect Corbyn less than 3 months ago.
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    Dr. Spyn, nice graph. Burnham's performance is reminiscent of the Hindenburg.

    Mr. JS, quite. Been banging on about that for ages.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2015
    JEO said:

    Seems like a lot of migrants are not happy with Germany and want to keep going to Sweden:

    http://imgur.com/a/oVM14

    Passports in just four years there.

    If this isn't evidence of economic migration rather than refugee migration, I don't know what is frankly.
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Are these drones being controlled by commodore 64s?
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited September 2015
    isam said:
    He needs a double QMV majority for Euro/non-Euro members, and limits on second hand migration from Germany/Sweden's ludicrous asylum policy.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited September 2015
    Deleted
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Anyone want to take up my FPT request for distinctive non-Corbyn centre-left policies? Please!
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    AndyJS said:

    JEO said:

    Seems like a lot of migrants are not happy with Germany and want to keep going to Sweden:

    http://imgur.com/a/oVM14

    Passports in just four years there.

    If this isn't evidence of economic migration rather than refugee migration, I don't know what is frankly.
    Indeed. They've passed through 5 or 6 countries where they're not being bombed or shot at. Clearly not refugees.
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    Cromwell said:

    I take it that (other than the very indirect flag of the mayoralty selection) there will be no early warnings of how well Corbyn has done until the result is actually declared?

    I supposed I could stay glued to Betfair and watch what it does on Friday night and early Saturday morning, but that is neither productive nor reliable.

    But did you see Yvette Cooper's glum face at Wednesday's PMQT ?....she is clearly not thinking that she's on the verge of becoming Labour leader ...I bet she's already had confirmation that Corbyn is way ahead and almost certain to win on the first ballot

    I agree, I think we would be hearing different mood music if it was ABC.

    I think it'll be closer than originally thought, but I don't see any change that he'll not make it.
    For me the key clue and indicator is the Corbyn rallies ..Cooper appeared in my home town and drew less than a hundred folks while a few days later Corbyn appeared and packed the town hall with over a thousand , and that has been going on all over the country like an American religious revival

    I predicted a Cooper victory because I was convinced she was the sensible , pragmatic choice but it's clear the voters are in no mood for sense or pragmatism , but prefer emotion , ideology and so called ''principle ''

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    JEO said:

    isam said:

    Strange sight on my facebook of a polish friend sharing lots of Britain First anti muslim videos

    I suspect the second generation of Eastern European immigrants will start identifying with British nationality and be very right wing.
    My wife is Bulgarian and we are thinking of starting a family soon. She is pro-business, monarchist, pro-academic selection, pro-tradition and otherwise very centrist.

    I will do my best.
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    JEO said:

    Seems like a lot of migrants are not happy with Germany and want to keep going to Sweden:

    http://imgur.com/a/oVM14

    Passports in just four years there.

    These scenes are simply astonishing.

    The closest parallel I can think of (visually) is to the partition of India, except it's one way rather than two way and there's been no major violence.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Swedish Prime Minister launches 'Sweden Together' push

    Stefan Löfven has called for Sweden’s entire public sector to unite to ensure the swift resettlement of the latest influx of refugees."


    http://www.thelocal.se/20150910/prime-minister-launches-sweden-together-push
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    isamisam Posts: 40,971
    edited September 2015
    JWisemann said:

    Anyone want to take up my FPT request for distinctive non-Corbyn centre-left policies? Please!

    If you want the best for bright, poor children; Grammar Schools
    If you want the best for unskilled british workers; leave the EU and have a points based immigration system
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    I agree with grammar schools (though there is the issues of people being left behind) and leaving the EU as it stands. I will vote out, personally. Corbyn could conceivably agree with the latter.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,971
    watford30 said:

    AndyJS said:

    JEO said:

    Seems like a lot of migrants are not happy with Germany and want to keep going to Sweden:

    http://imgur.com/a/oVM14

    Passports in just four years there.

    If this isn't evidence of economic migration rather than refugee migration, I don't know what is frankly.
    Indeed. They've passed through 5 or 6 countries where they're not being bombed or shot at. Clearly not refugees.
    Astonishing that so many people thought they were
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    JWisemann said:

    I agree with grammar schools (though there is the issues of people being left behind) and leaving the EU as it stands. I will vote out, personally. Corbyn could conceivably agree with the latter.

    Children can be just as much "left behind" at poorly-performing comprehensives.
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Yes, hence why I'm open to the idea of grammar schools, but it does institutionalise the 'leaving behind'.
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    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I presume if like OGH you've traded yourself into an all-green outcome, there's not much point getting involved in any last-minute trading except to play up your profits.

    To be honest, I'm much more interested in the Irish Champion Stakes at 6.50pm on Saturday evening which has a stellar cast (if they all run).

    As for London, the oddly irrational Evening Standard, which ran an op-ed piece on Tuesday evening by its owner praising Russian actions supporting Assad in Syria, last night filled space with a piece on "poll of polls" type sampling showing Jowell as the only likely Labour winner in a Mayoral race with Goldsmith.

    The figures in the piece were contradictory and confusing but I had a sense of a big Jowell lead in Inner London balancing out and neutralising a small Goldsmith lead in the outer suburbs.

    Still, a very long way to go as it is nationally - we are just over four months into a sixty month political cycle - the water has barely begun to think about flowing under the bridge which hasn't been built yet. Two years from now and we won't be halfway through the parliament yet everyone on here seems so certain of everything.

    "Events, dear boy, events" was, I believe, the response of a former Prime Minister when asked what worried him most.

    Indeed. It's not inconceivable that the UK will no longer exist in its current form and we'll be outside the EU by 2020.

    Unlikely? Yes, but not as unlikely as I'd have said it would be for Labour to elect Corbyn less than 3 months ago.
    The general population have far more practical common sense than ideological Labour Party voters ....Labour are dying a natural death having outlived their usefulness and their inability to change with the times ; Corbynism is just an admission of defeat , just an acknowledgement that they will no longer try and compete ! the LP are a sinking ship of fools who are showing the Red Flag of ''principle '' before they finally go under

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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2015
    watford30 said:

    AndyJS said:

    JEO said:

    Seems like a lot of migrants are not happy with Germany and want to keep going to Sweden:

    http://imgur.com/a/oVM14

    Passports in just four years there.

    If this isn't evidence of economic migration rather than refugee migration, I don't know what is frankly.
    Indeed. They've passed through 5 or 6 countries where they're not being bombed or shot at. Clearly not refugees.
    It's understandable what they're doing. If you've made the effort to get to western Europe from Syria or Afghanistan, it makes sense to go the whole hog and attempt to end up in the country with the most generous benefits, most welcoming government, and with the fastest route to an EU passport. Why settle for second-best?
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    Mr. JS, I agree, but they've ceased being refugees and have become migrants.

    It's unsustainable to simply allow everyone from a country less nice than Germany to go and live there. It's also dictatorial for the Chancellor to say everyone can come over, and then demand other countries take some of the horde she's invited.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,389
    edited September 2015
    JWisemann said:

    I agree with grammar schools (though there is the issues of people being left behind) and leaving the EU as it stands. I will vote out, personally. Corbyn could conceivably agree with the latter.

    Thing is, and not to hammer the point again too much, nor to kick the left when it is down, but this is tinkering around the edges. All good ideas but it's hardly going to get anyone climbing the cenotaph.

    There is nothing bold (nor should there be) in a centre left set of policies because we don't live in a country where that is appropriate. We live in a centrist, free market economy. That, of course, is the problem with YC, AB, LK - they have no bid idea to entice people away to a mildly different flavour of centrism. The "what changed between five to and five past 10pm on May 7th" conundrum.

    Of course JC has a big idea but boy is it the wrong one.

    My contribution to this (and ofc it's something that each govt has promised and failed to deliver): actually follow through on promises to build more houses. Lack of housing is at the very centre of many of the problems the UK faces today. I would build more in a way that balances the interest of developers, young people, urbanites, rural dwellers, nimbys, et al.

    in fact @tim and I pretty much speak with one voice on this.
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    Only just noticed how much the migration crisis (and possibly a Corbyn effect) has affected the Leave odds - 4.9 into 3.3 on betfair. A good tip by OGH.
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    edited September 2015
    But the centrism as defined by the political elites isn't the same as the general public's centre (which is further 'left' or 'right' depending on what you are looking at, eg immigration or rail nationalisation). This tension is ok when everyone feels like they are getting better off, but when they don't the cracks start to appear and the Westminster elite consensus starts to fail.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,883
    AndyJS said:

    Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in the Telegraph:

    "Europe faces political war on two fronts as backlash builds
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The EU's Eastern states shocked to lose their sovereignty over borders, just as southern Europe lost economic sovereignty by joining the euro."


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11854259/Europe-faces-political-war-on-two-fronts-as-backlash-builds.html

    The irony is it was only twenty-six years ago Hungary, by opening its border with Austria, started the chain of events that brought down the Berlin Wall and from which all today's events flow - the reverberations of those events ripple through our society.

    In terms of movement of peoples, nothing like the forced expulsion of Germans from central and eastern Europe in 1945-46 but the scenes of people walking along German motorways reminded me of the refugees fleeing the Russians in 1945.

    The post-Warsaw Pact states of eastern Europe are relatively "new" and have seen a significant depopulation of their own as their own young people have headed to Germany and the UK and elsewhere.

    AEP has a point in that the eastern European states were as ill-suited to the concept of freedom of movement (though good news for us in terms of street cleaners, plumbers, baristas and betting shop customers) as the southern European states were to the concept of a common currency with the likes of Germany and the Low Countries.

    My view has always been we should have held the post-Warsaw Pact countries as associate EU members while their societies and economies integrated more fully with other parts of Europe (while keeping some countries out of the Euro until their economies caught up).

    The failure of the EU is that, however laudable freedom of movement and a common currency
    would be in a fully integrated Europe, the impact of the events of 1989 in particular led some leaders to do too much too soon.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,971
    AndyJS said:

    watford30 said:

    AndyJS said:

    JEO said:

    Seems like a lot of migrants are not happy with Germany and want to keep going to Sweden:

    http://imgur.com/a/oVM14

    Passports in just four years there.

    If this isn't evidence of economic migration rather than refugee migration, I don't know what is frankly.
    Indeed. They've passed through 5 or 6 countries where they're not being bombed or shot at. Clearly not refugees.
    It's understandable what they're doing. If you've made the effort to get to western Europe from Syria or Afghanistan, it makes sense to go the whole hog and attempt to end up in the country with the most generous benefits, most welcoming government, and with the fastest route to an EU passport. Why settle for second-best?
    Can't blame them at all, who wouldn't do the same?

    The failing is on the part of the politicians that refused to see the problems their policies create and the virtue signallers egging them on
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    isamisam Posts: 40,971
    stodge said:

    AndyJS said:

    Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in the Telegraph:

    "Europe faces political war on two fronts as backlash builds
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The EU's Eastern states shocked to lose their sovereignty over borders, just as southern Europe lost economic sovereignty by joining the euro."


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11854259/Europe-faces-political-war-on-two-fronts-as-backlash-builds.html

    The irony is it was only twenty-six years ago Hungary, by opening its border with Austria, started the chain of events that brought down the Berlin Wall and from which all today's events flow - the reverberations of those events ripple through our society.

    In terms of movement of peoples, nothing like the forced expulsion of Germans from central and eastern Europe in 1945-46 but the scenes of people walking along German motorways reminded me of the refugees fleeing the Russians in 1945.

    The post-Warsaw Pact states of eastern Europe are relatively "new" and have seen a significant depopulation of their own as their own young people have headed to Germany and the UK and elsewhere.

    AEP has a point in that the eastern European states were as ill-suited to the concept of freedom of movement (though good news for us in terms of street cleaners, plumbers, baristas and betting shop customers) as the southern European states were to the concept of a common currency with the likes of Germany and the Low Countries.

    My view has always been we should have held the post-Warsaw Pact countries as associate EU members while their societies and economies integrated more fully with other parts of Europe (while keeping some countries out of the Euro until their economies caught up).

    The failure of the EU is that, however laudable freedom of movement and a common currency
    would be in a fully integrated Europe, the impact of the events of 1989 in particular led some leaders to do too much too soon.
    Does Nigel Farage mind you stealing his lines?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,389
    JWisemann said:

    But the centrism as defined by the political elites isn't the same as the general public's centre (which is further 'left' or 'right' depending on what you are looking at, eg immigration or rail nationalisation). This tension is ok when everyone feels like they are getting better off, but when they don't the cracks start to appear and the Westminster elite consensus starts to fail.

    I don't hold truck with the "Westminster Elite" argument. Becoming an MP requires arguably the least formal set of qualifications in the country. No one starts out as a member of the "Westminster Elite". Some may be better off, some less well off - all are driven to try to gain power to bring about their preferred vision of society.

    You could do it, so could I.

    Does power, once gained, then corrupt? Perhaps. Certainly there are temptations along the line but mostly, the vision that got each MP elected in the first place (which is a hugely competitive and demanding process for 90% of candidates btw in case you think that anyone can waltz in there) is the vision they bring to the HoC.

    As to the general public's centre. You are right, the less well the public does, the more extreme some demands can become but as we saw (IMO) at the last election, generally the public is a sensible bunch.

    Of course it's always much easier to blame an unseen "elite" or even a murky international conspiracy, not that I am saying you are doing that; I'm sure nothing could be further from your thoughts.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,354

    JEO said:

    isam said:

    Strange sight on my facebook of a polish friend sharing lots of Britain First anti muslim videos

    I suspect the second generation of Eastern European immigrants will start identifying with British nationality and be very right wing.
    My wife is Bulgarian and we are thinking of starting a family soon. She is pro-business, monarchist, pro-academic selection, pro-tradition and otherwise very centrist.

    I will do my best.
    In general I think that Eastern European migrants are very often far from left-wing, for obvious reasons, so long as the Tories don't actively try to alienate them.

    But does she support the Bulgarian cricket team?
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,882
    Given the neurosis that's inflicting Labour at the moment I could easily see them reconciling having Tessa for their Mayoral candidate and Jezza for LOTO.
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    It's not a conspiracy, simply that the system is set up so that you have to have the right views to succeed.
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    Blogging is going to be light today as I have the lurgy.

    I'm off to bed and if anything major happens in the next few hours and it's not covered straight away you know why.

    It's not all bad news. I've set the AV thread to auto publish for 3pm.
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082

    Blogging is going to be light today as I have the lurgy.

    I'm off to bed and if anything major happens in the next few hours and it's not covered straight away you know why.

    It's not all bad news. I've set the AV thread to auto publish for 3pm.

    We're in the throes of something truly hideous in this household, including agonising mouth ulcers and the worst sore throats ever. I hope it isn't that.
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    JEO said:

    isam said:

    Strange sight on my facebook of a polish friend sharing lots of Britain First anti muslim videos

    I suspect the second generation of Eastern European immigrants will start identifying with British nationality and be very right wing.
    My wife is Bulgarian and we are thinking of starting a family soon. She is pro-business, monarchist, pro-academic selection, pro-tradition and otherwise very centrist.

    I will do my best.
    Comrade, given your testimony you are required to produce a minimum of four children.
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    It's Burnham Wot Lost It.

    It's Osborne Wot Won It.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Jack_Blanchard_: With an hour until voting ends, Liz Kendall is about to make her last speech of the leadership campaign. Not sure it's going to be too jolly

    @nedsimons: I hope Liz Kendall just stands up and just screams and sets fire to everything.

    @charlotteahenry: Come on @Liz4Leader - just say "I fucking warned you" and then mic drop!
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    On the day voting in the Labour leadership election finishes, the BBC posts an article detailing the future state of the party:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34198390
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,554
    edited September 2015
    A new word needs to be invented for this clusterfuck-cum -omnishambles.

    @PolhomeEditor: EXCL Labour leadership hotline was closed down because it was receiving too many calls. http://t.co/xsOrLkhbpX http://t.co/0Z9XCbOES4
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    PoliticsHome also understands that a special panel set up by Labour's ruling NEC to oversee exclusions is not meeting this week.

    The revelation is the latest blow for Labour's trouble-hit leadership campaign and comes just over an hour before polls close.

    It was also claimed last night that hundreds of non-Labour supporters will still have a say on who wins the contest, despite the party's attempts to weed them out.

    Michael Dugher, who is Andy Burnham's campaign manager, said there was "no way" the party's verification process had caught everyone trying to disrupt the contest.
    https://www.politicshome.com/party-politics/articles/story/labour-leadership-hotline-closed-down-after-receiving-too-many-calls
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,289
    Having a laugh.

    twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/641916672941670400?lang=en
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