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  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572

    Sadiq could be a contender for Shadow Home Secretary if he doesn't win. The real value bet on a female Shadow Chancellor is Angela Eagle and not Diane Abbott.

    Both value tips IMO.

    If Cooper wins (we really don't know for sure what's happening), perhaps Umunna?
  • notme said:

    On topic: I've always recoiled at the expression "talented politician", talent is what artists and athletes have. Becoming a politician takes practice, its not an inherent gift. OK some may be talented communicators but the thought of people having the natural ability to become a politician undermines what the role requires imo.

    You don't think athletes or artists practice?
    Wasnt there a famous quote, maybe from Steve Davis, about 'talent', he said something about how it is funny, the more and more I practice the more natural talent i seem to have....

    Gary Player, wasn't it?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,529
    notme said:

    malcolmg said:

    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    John_M said:

    Good morning all. God save the Queen!

    What on earth happened to the talented Labour politicians of yesteryear? What a sad collection of no-hopers, never-has-beens and flakes.

    Do you see any talented ones elsewhere, give me a laugh and name some Tories.
    Malcolm: I would say that the most talented politician around at the moment has been Nicola Sturgeon, simply measured by her achievements. Not just the electoral success but also her success in succeeding Salmond.

    I'm not saying anything about her policies, about which I don't know much but simply in terms of political skill.



    Cyclefree, she is certainly better than any at Westminster, but like the rest of them both her and SNP have plenty of rotten policies etc. Best of a bad lot but not great.
    She is one of the few politicians who could convincingly marry an economic liberalism with a social concious and run a government like that. Unfortunately, devolution how it is currently constructed has created a 'cap in hand' institution. It pays to blame everything on the UK government because you are merely spending money raised by other people (this isnt an attack on how barnett is redistributed, or how much the Scots contribute to the economy, just a statement that the Scottish Government is not accountable for the money raised to fund its duties).

    Much more domestic responsibility for tax raising and spending will change that.
    Yes I agree and a great pity that she will not be getting that responsibility.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,529

    Mr. Notme, wasn't it a golfer who said the more he practised, the luckier he got?

    Believe that was Gary Player MD.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Sadiq could be a contender for Shadow Home Secretary if he doesn't win. The real value bet on a female Shadow Chancellor is Angela Eagle and not Diane Abbott.

    Both value tips IMO.

    If Cooper wins (we really don't know for sure what's happening), perhaps Umunna?
    Assuming Corbyn wins, Meacher seems good value. He and Corbyn are of similar vintage and longstanding allies. Corbyn will want someone of like mind as SCOE, and Meacher has some experience of the tools of government.

    If ABC win then it all changes of course.
  • Jonathan I sometimes think she should play on the other wing..she tends to be better with her left foot sometimes.. might help if she took the crown off during the game.. plays havoc with the footballs

    but can she do it on a wet wednesday evening at stoke?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited September 2015
    Meacher... who,at the last count,owned five houses..wonder how many refugees he is taking in..
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049
    It's exquisite.

    Let's say Jezza gets in, starts to assemble his shadow cabinet, and surely then must reward his supporters who are like-minded souls.

    We would then have the prospect of him looking at Diane Abbott and in all likelihood thinking: "nah, she's bonkers.."

    Perhaps it might shock him into some kind of reality realising that some Labour MPs really are only there for show and to play a role in exemplifying and keeping alive particular policy extremes, rather than actually to govern themselves. Labour MPs such as himself, for example.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Jonathan said:

    Did I hear this morning that HM Queen Elizabeth has finally surpassed Bobby Charlton's record?

    That's a scandalous lie... HM the Queen has never had a comb over.
  • dugarbandier...Wednesdays are not good...usually hosting a banquet..
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    edited September 2015
    "On betting, I'd say Corbyn would need to shore up his position by persuading as many former opponents and ministers as he can to serve in the Shadow Cabinet, and that they would need to do so in order to stand next time."

    I am not sure this is right. If Corbyn is the disaster most of us (and most senior Labour figures) expect, it could be that the people who anticipate this and keep well away from his shadow cabinet will be best placed to succeed him and to bring some order and sense back to proceedings. Someone who was Shadow Chancellor for two years and who spouted the nonsense Corbyn believes in would be a non-starter.

  • Mr. G/Mr. Observer, I bow to your superior knowledge in the lore of golf.
  • "On betting, I'd say Corbyn would need to shore up his position by persuading as many former opponents and ministers as he can to serve in the Shadow Cabinet, and that they would need to do so in order to stand next time."

    I am not sure this is right. If Corbyn is the disaster most of us (and most senior Labour figures) expect, it could be that the people who anticipated this and keep well away from his shadow cabinet will be the people best placed to succeed him and to bring some order and sense back to proceedings. Someone who was Shadow Chancellor for two years and who spouted the nonsense Corbyn believes in would be a non-starter.

    Thats the problem for any 'serious' politican in the shadow cabinet

    1) How much power will they really have if Corbyn allows the masses to dictate policy more
    2) Can they really sell something none of them will beleive in.

    Take the independence of the BOE for example, could Cooper or Reeves etc sell the policy that one of the main actions of New Labour should be removed?
  • So it appears that the 'achievement' of this Lizzie woman is to have had a father who died before his time.

    Incidentally, I will be passing through Waverley station this afternoon (on my way to an evening in a distillery*), so I might get the chance to shout the odd republican slogan in her direction.

    Not organised by the Labour Party I hasten to add, since we know that they cannot organise such events in breweries, never mind distilleries!
  • "On betting, I'd say Corbyn would need to shore up his position by persuading as many former opponents and ministers as he can to serve in the Shadow Cabinet, and that they would need to do so in order to stand next time."

    I am not sure this is right. If Corbyn is the disaster most of us (and most senior Labour figures) expect, it could be that the people who anticipated this and keep well away from his shadow cabinet will be the people best placed to succeed him and to bring some order and sense back to proceedings. Someone who was Shadow Chancellor for two years and who spouted the nonsense Corbyn believes in would be a non-starter.

    Thats the problem for any 'serious' politican in the shadow cabinet

    1) How much power will they really have if Corbyn allows the masses to dictate policy more
    2) Can they really sell something none of them will beleive in.

    Take the independence of the BOE for example, could Cooper or Reeves etc sell the policy that one of the main actions of New Labour should be removed?
    In a word, 'No'.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Interesting speech by Juncker today. Countries in the quota system must accept as many refugees as he decides or they will be fined. I know it doesn't affect the UK, but is he really saying that some Eurocrat can tell a sovereign government who its citizens are going to be?

    If No can't win in this sort of atmosphere, it never will.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,529

    So it appears that the 'achievement' of this Lizzie woman is to have had a father who died before his time.

    Incidentally, I will be passing through Waverley station this afternoon (on my way to an evening in a distillery*), so I might get the chance to shout the odd republican slogan in her direction.

    Not organised by the Labour Party I hasten to add, since we know that they cannot organise such events in breweries, never mind distilleries!

    Sandy , enjoy your evening , sounds very pleasant.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Sadiq could be a contender for Shadow Home Secretary if he doesn't win.

    That has to be a joke right ? Almost as scary as him being in charge of the capital...

  • "On betting, I'd say Corbyn would need to shore up his position by persuading as many former opponents and ministers as he can to serve in the Shadow Cabinet, and that they would need to do so in order to stand next time."

    I am not sure this is right. If Corbyn is the disaster most of us (and most senior Labour figures) expect, it could be that the people who anticipated this and keep well away from his shadow cabinet will be the people best placed to succeed him and to bring some order and sense back to proceedings. Someone who was Shadow Chancellor for two years and who spouted the nonsense Corbyn believes in would be a non-starter.

    Thats the problem for any 'serious' politican in the shadow cabinet

    1) How much power will they really have if Corbyn allows the masses to dictate policy more
    2) Can they really sell something none of them will beleive in.

    Take the independence of the BOE for example, could Cooper or Reeves etc sell the policy that one of the main actions of New Labour should be removed?
    Agreed if someone doesn't want to retire the backbenches then they need to hold a non-economic portfolio at least. Burnham could conceivably continue in Health for instance. Though he'll still be interviewed and asked if he backs Corbyn's crazy policies which will be awkward at least.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited September 2015
    CD13..That is teriffic news ..sums up the entire EU structure...this man is dictating to over 500,000,000 people ..telling them what to do.. and none of them voted for him.
  • CD13 said:

    Interesting speech by Juncker today. Countries in the quota system must accept as many refugees as he decides or they will be fined. I know it doesn't affect the UK, but is he really saying that some Eurocrat can tell a sovereign government who its citizens are going to be?

    If No can't win in this sort of atmosphere, it never will.

    No the UK isn't part of this as we have an opt-out. Yes he can do that (so long as enough European nations vote it through) as they've pooled responsibility on this, but we haven't.
  • CD13..That is teriffic news ..sums up the entire EU structure...this man is dictating to over 500,000,000 people ..telling them what to do.. and none of them voted for him.

    Only if the EU nations vote it through. It needs to be passed by QMV and they have voted for that.

    Not a reason to vote Leave though (its not No anymore) as we already have an opt-out negotiated.
  • DavidL said:

    Thought it was pretty hilarious that Galloway, who is not an MP or a member of the Labour party, was still thought more likely than Kendall.

    If Corbyn is going to show any interest in seeking to even pretend that he wants to hold the party together surely Burnham or Cooper is most likely. Cooper has said she would not serve but the shadow job she has probably wanted most just might tempt her as might the idea she would then be well placed when the inevitable car crash becomes too painful to ignore.

    I disagree, if Corbyn wants to hold on then from his perspective putting Cooper in as Shadow Chancellor is like putting a viper in the nest. The Shadow Chancellor sort of by definition is an incredibly powerful figure whoever it is and if he grants that power to someone who doesn't respect him, they can use it against them at a time of their choosing.

    Lets say in two years Cooper decides to call for Corbyn to resign
    "Random formerly famous backbencher who lost the leadership election" calls for leader to resign is manageable.
    "Shadow Chancellor" calls for leader to resign is a crisis.

    If Corbyn intends to survive five years he needs to fill the big jobs with the most credible of his own supporters/people who can live with him.

    Look at the Tory Party for example. David Davis has gone from being a credible frontrunner and former favourite for leader to a laughing stock of a backbencher not taken seriously. Had Cameron reinstated him into the cabinet then he could resign and inflict damage, but he can't do much damage from the backbenches.
    Although of course Cameron *did* put Davis into the Shadow Cabinet after the leadership election and it was Davis' own initiative that changed that. Not inviting him back was a different matter, though the necessity of having to cull the number of Tory ministers when the coalition formed helped him there.

    In any case, Davis is better off on the backbenches and parliament is better off with him there.

    To counter the main point, whether someone's in cabinet or not matters but is not the be all and end all. While he remained in parliament, David Miliband remained the most high-profile alternative to his brother. Similarly, Heseltine was the heir apparent to Thatcher had she lost the 1991/2 election until he blew that capital by challenging early.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    OT. Today is an anniversary for those who are not fans of Roman Imperial predation.
    https://twitter.com/DanHannanMEP/status/641503102697361408
  • "On betting, I'd say Corbyn would need to shore up his position by persuading as many former opponents and ministers as he can to serve in the Shadow Cabinet, and that they would need to do so in order to stand next time."

    I am not sure this is right. If Corbyn is the disaster most of us (and most senior Labour figures) expect, it could be that the people who anticipated this and keep well away from his shadow cabinet will be the people best placed to succeed him and to bring some order and sense back to proceedings. Someone who was Shadow Chancellor for two years and who spouted the nonsense Corbyn believes in would be a non-starter.

    Thats the problem for any 'serious' politican in the shadow cabinet

    1) How much power will they really have if Corbyn allows the masses to dictate policy more
    2) Can they really sell something none of them will beleive in.

    Take the independence of the BOE for example, could Cooper or Reeves etc sell the policy that one of the main actions of New Labour should be removed?

    If it were me, I would keep as far away from the impending train crash as possible. Diane Abbott will not be shadow chancellor, unfortunately, but having her in a key role alongside other loons will hasten Corbyn's departure. Leave them to it, I say. It can be done in the sure knowledge that the country will never vote for them and, at some stage, Labour members will get over the election grief, stop hugging themselves and swaying back and forth, wipe away the tears and realise that the only way to make a difference is to have power.
  • SR..Sandy..give the newly opened distillery in Bassenthwaite a try..first one in England..reports are excellent..
  • So it appears that the 'achievement' of this Lizzie woman is to have had a father who died before his time.

    Incidentally, I will be passing through Waverley station this afternoon (on my way to an evening in a distillery*), so I might get the chance to shout the odd republican slogan in her direction.

    Not organised by the Labour Party I hasten to add, since we know that they cannot organise such events in breweries, never mind distilleries!

    Heh. The depths the left have descended to: shouting at old ladies. Good Conservaties would never do that, of course. They'd bow politely and ask for their vote. ;)
  • So it appears that the 'achievement' of this Lizzie woman is to have had a father who died before his time.

    Incidentally, I will be passing through Waverley station this afternoon (on my way to an evening in a distillery*), so I might get the chance to shout the odd republican slogan in her direction.

    She may be aboard this (cue PB collective orgasm).

    https://twitter.com/BordersRailway/status/641528346430558208

  • So it appears that the 'achievement' of this Lizzie woman is to have had a father who died before his time.

    Incidentally, I will be passing through Waverley station this afternoon (on my way to an evening in a distillery*), so I might get the chance to shout the odd republican slogan in her direction.

    Not organised by the Labour Party I hasten to add, since we know that they cannot organise such events in breweries, never mind distilleries!

    Heh. The depths the left have descended to: now they're shouting at old ladies.

    Good Conservatives would never do that, of course. They'd bow politely and ask for their vote. ;)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Jonathan said:

    Did I hear this morning that HM Queen Elizabeth has finally surpassed Bobby Charlton's record?

    That's a scandalous lie... HM the Queen has never had a comb over.
    Rooney famously had the potted plant approach rather than combover.

    Though a Royal combover may be on the cards at some point. A carefully designed crown may cover a natural crown...
  • Mr. Foxinsox, when you're wearing the Imperial State Crown, nobody can see your bald patch ;)
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr Thompson,

    I know it doesn't affect us but it's the mindset that is worrying.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Disraeli said:

    OT. Today is an anniversary for those who are not fans of Roman Imperial predation.
    twitter.com/DanHannanMEP/status/641503102697361408

    Germans knew how to arrange a welcome for mediterranean migrants in those days!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    So it appears that the 'achievement' of this Lizzie woman is to have had a father who died before his time.

    We should be ever thankful that her forebearers kept the frog Romanist Charles Edward Louis John Casimir Sylvester Severino Maria Stuart at bay or we would all be tugging a forelock to the Vatican.
  • CD If we did not have the opt out then I wonder what the reaction of the British public would be.. It could be the sharp stick that prods the sleeping Lion..
  • Mr. Dodd, I'd imagine many of the countries which are affected will not be delighted by their quotas.
  • SR..Sandy..give the newly opened distillery in Bassenthwaite a try..first one in England..reports are excellent..

    There's one in Norfolk:
    https://www.englishwhisky.co.uk/the-distillery

    I managed to walk past once without nipping in for a quick snifter.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited September 2015
    MD.. Then they should stand up and say so..This is mainly Germany,s party.. they issued the invites..forgot to order the wine, fix the accommodation..no cutlery ..no seating and expect all of their neighbours to accommodate their guests..
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    So it appears that the 'achievement' of this Lizzie woman is to have had a father who died before his time.

    Incidentally, I will be passing through Waverley station this afternoon (on my way to an evening in a distillery*), so I might get the chance to shout the odd republican slogan in her direction.

    Not organised by the Labour Party I hasten to add, since we know that they cannot organise such events in breweries, never mind distilleries!

    How about a quart of Sarsons for that giant chip on your shoulder?
  • Mr. Dodd, we shall see what they say.

    Also, divvying up 120,000 when Germany's expecting 800,00+ this year and reckons it can take half a million for several years may be the equivalent of fetching an aspirin for a man with an arrow through his head.
  • MD.. I think Germany has lost its common sense..
  • CD13 said:

    Interesting speech by Juncker today. Countries in the quota system must accept as many refugees as he decides or they will be fined. I know it doesn't affect the UK, but is he really saying that some Eurocrat can tell a sovereign government who its citizens are going to be?

    If No can't win in this sort of atmosphere, it never will.

    Meanwhile, Merkel is threatening: "consequences" for countries resisting quotas.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1549287/refugees-merkel-warns-those-resisting-quotas


  • Congratulations to Liz, who has broken a very long-standing record indeed.

    She has remained in fourth place for the Labour Leadership betting for 61 days, beating the previous record set by Bryan Gould.
  • Germany is like some kid who goes on social media to announce a party because the parents are away for the weekend..and are surprised when thousands turn up and trash the place..
  • DavidL said:

    Thought it was pretty hilarious that Galloway, who is not an MP or a member of the Labour party, was still thought more likely than Kendall.

    If Corbyn is going to show any interest in seeking to even pretend that he wants to hold the party together surely Burnham or Cooper is most likely. Cooper has said she would not serve but the shadow job she has probably wanted most just might tempt her as might the idea she would then be well placed when the inevitable car crash becomes too painful to ignore.

    I disagree, if Corbyn wants to hold on then from his perspective putting Cooper in as Shadow Chancellor is like putting a viper in the nest. The Shadow Chancellor sort of by definition is an incredibly powerful figure whoever it is and if he grants that power to someone who doesn't respect him, they can use it against them at a time of their choosing.

    Lets say in two years Cooper decides to call for Corbyn to resign
    "Random formerly famous backbencher who lost the leadership election" calls for leader to resign is manageable.
    "Shadow Chancellor" calls for leader to resign is a crisis.

    If Corbyn intends to survive five years he needs to fill the big jobs with the most credible of his own supporters/people who can live with him.

    Look at the Tory Party for example. David Davis has gone from being a credible frontrunner and former favourite for leader to a laughing stock of a backbencher not taken seriously. Had Cameron reinstated him into the cabinet then he could resign and inflict damage, but he can't do much damage from the backbenches.
    He is only a laughing stock in the minds of the Cameron loyalists who of course have to portray him that way as they are so frightened of what he can do.
    You can not be serious. I don't think anyone is frightened of Davis. That's more laughable than being frightened of Vince Cable's nuclear option LOL!
    As I said. Cameron loyalists have to say that for fear of the damage he can do to their leader by taking principled stands. You are deluded if you think the rest of the country views him in the same way.
    With respect Richard, you're deluded if you think that more than a low single figures percentage could even recognise David Davis.
  • I think there's a fundamental difference. Under current QE the Bank is buying assets such as gilts off banks and other financials using new money. But, it can sell them back and 'destroy' the new money at a later date. Corbyn's plans would mean the new money is permanent.

    There is nothing wrong with helicopter QE as an option in a Depression IMHO, but not clear to me that we are still in one.

    I also don't see what the problem is that people's QE is trying to solve. If Corbyn wants more Gov investment in infrastructure then say so and increase the debt levels or increase tax.

    Not clear we are still in a depression? We haven't even been in recession for six years!

    The Bank of England is talking about raising interest rates within 12 months, there is no way the Bank would support this insanity.
    It's a funny sort of recession where employment is at a record high.
  • Miss Jones, she haz vays of making you take migrants.
  • SR..Sandy..give the newly opened distillery in Bassenthwaite a try..first one in England..reports are excellent..

    English Drams for English Voters!
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited September 2015
    LucyJones said:

    CD13 said:

    Interesting speech by Juncker today. Countries in the quota system must accept as many refugees as he decides or they will be fined. I know it doesn't affect the UK, but is he really saying that some Eurocrat can tell a sovereign government who its citizens are going to be?

    If No can't win in this sort of atmosphere, it never will.

    Meanwhile, Merkel is threatening: "consequences" for countries resisting quotas.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1549287/refugees-merkel-warns-those-resisting-quotas


    If we ever needed proof that Germany likes to think it runs the EU, and probably does, this is it.

    After years of being pro EU, I'm in the Out camp now. Not for this latest revelation, but the fact that whole organisation is seemingly run by buffoons, with their heads firmly stuck up each others bottoms. The incompetent handling of the migrant invasion is the perfect example.

    Everything has tipped in favour of going not staying.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,685
    @Southam, if you're on, I don't know if you saw the comments this morning: "The Catalonia regional government President reiterates that the September 27th regional elections should serve to start a process via which a Catalan state will be created and not to lead to an immediate unilateral declaration of independence. "
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited September 2015
    Sandy as you will know, the Lake District is similar terrain to he whisky brewing areas of Scotland..The water used is filtered through the peaty earth on the north side of Skiddaw..and we will need an English supply when the fence goes up..
  • Disraeli said:

    OT. Today is an anniversary for those who are not fans of Roman Imperial predation.
    twitter.com/DanHannanMEP/status/641503102697361408

    Germans knew how to arrange a welcome for mediterranean migrants in those days!
    Naughty Dr Fox. :lol:
  • DavidL said:

    Thought it was pretty hilarious that Galloway, who is not an MP or a member of the Labour party, was still thought more likely than Kendall.

    If Corbyn is going to show any interest in seeking to even pretend that he wants to hold the party together surely Burnham or Cooper is most likely. Cooper has said she would not serve but the shadow job she has probably wanted most just might tempt her as might the idea she would then be well placed when the inevitable car crash becomes too painful to ignore.

    I disagree, if Corbyn wants to hold on then from his perspective putting Cooper in as Shadow Chancellor is like putting a viper in the nest. The Shadow Chancellor sort of by definition is an incredibly powerful figure whoever it is and if he grants that power to someone who doesn't respect him, they can use it against them at a time of their choosing.

    Lets say in two years Cooper decides to call for Corbyn to resign
    "Random formerly famous backbencher who lost the leadership election" calls for leader to resign is manageable.
    "Shadow Chancellor" calls for leader to resign is a crisis.

    If Corbyn intends to survive five years he needs to fill the big jobs with the most credible of his own supporters/people who can live with him.

    Look at the Tory Party for example. David Davis has gone from being a credible frontrunner and former favourite for leader to a laughing stock of a backbencher not taken seriously. Had Cameron reinstated him into the cabinet then he could resign and inflict damage, but he can't do much damage from the backbenches.
    He is only a laughing stock in the minds of the Cameron loyalists who of course have to portray him that way as they are so frightened of what he can do.
    You can not be serious. I don't think anyone is frightened of Davis. That's more laughable than being frightened of Vince Cable's nuclear option LOL!
    As I said. Cameron loyalists have to say that for fear of the damage he can do to their leader by taking principled stands. You are deluded if you think the rest of the country views him in the same way.
    With respect Richard, you're deluded if you think that more than a low single figures percentage could even recognise David Davis.
    That wasn't the point. The same applies to most politicians. What we are talking about is the perception of the man amongst those who know him and the contention that he is poorly regarded except by those who are blindly following Cameron.
  • Is Ma Merkel planning to invade those countries that resist the quotas..Old German habits die hard..
  • Sandy as you will know, the Lake District is similar terrain to he whisky brewing areas of Scotland..The water used is filtered through the peaty earth on the north side of Skiddaw..and we will need an English supply when the fence goes up..

    I have always thought that Upper Teesdale would be a great place for a distillery for similar reasons. "High Force Single Malt" or similar.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited September 2015
    SR It certainly would..now is the time to get it started..probably a few hidden amateurs already at it tho...wild country..wild people
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    <

    He [David Davis] is only a laughing stock in the minds of the Cameron loyalists who of course have to portray him that way as they are so frightened of what he can do.

    Unfortunately he's a flawed champion of some good ideas.

    He's proved himself to have poor judgment, overweening conceit and an inflated sense of his own abilities.
  • Mr. T, especially concerning given the current (and declining) situation in Northern Ireland.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I feel Davis has a touch of the Julian Assange about him. I used to quite like him, then he just made a self-righteous look-at-me charlie of himself.

    He makes some valid points - but he reminds me of Ted Heath sulking when he speaks up.
    Charles said:

    <

    He [David Davis] is only a laughing stock in the minds of the Cameron loyalists who of course have to portray him that way as they are so frightened of what he can do.

    Unfortunately he's a flawed champion of some good ideas.

    He's proved himself to have poor judgment, overweening conceit and an inflated sense of his own abilities.
  • ST ..ERRM Wasn't the lack of peace in Belfast because of the IRA actions
  • With respect Richard, you're deluded if you think that more than a low single figures percentage could even recognise David Davis.

    That wasn't the point. The same applies to most politicians. What we are talking about is the perception of the man amongst those who know him and the contention that he is poorly regarded except by those who are blindly following Cameron.
    You said the public, not those who know him. The two are not the same thing.

    My original point was that had he been in the cabinet now then he'd be far more powerful as the public would know him. More people probably would know Jeremy Hunt than David Davis now, the same would not have been said a decade ago.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Mr. T, especially concerning given the current (and declining) situation in Northern Ireland.

    http://www.u.tv/News/2015/09/09/Senior-Sinn-Fein-man-arrested-in-McGuigan-murder-probe-44637

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,553
    SeanT said:

    The lunacy of All Things Corbyn is underlined by the name at the top of the list. John McDonnell. Here is the Guardian reporting on him a few years ago:

    "At a gathering to commemorate the IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands, Mr McDonnell said: "It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA.""

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/may/30/northernireland.devolution

    The Labour leadership had to distance themselves from McDonnell, and there were serious calls for him to be expelled from the party.

    Now he will be Corbyn's Shadow Chancellor. Labour's self mutilation continues.

    The Jezbollah have persuaded themselves that the British public agree with such opinions.
  • rcs1000 said:

    @Southam, if you're on, I don't know if you saw the comments this morning: "The Catalonia regional government President reiterates that the September 27th regional elections should serve to start a process via which a Catalan state will be created and not to lead to an immediate unilateral declaration of independence. "

    As per my later responses to you yesterday - yes, the vote starts a timetabled process and does not lead to an immediate declaration of independence. But Junts has made absolutely clear it is an irreversible process. They have painted themselves into a corner as no Spanish government will ever concede independence or even an independence referendum. The only way this is resolved is for Junts not to win an overall majority on 27th September and for the PP to lose power in December so that more reasoned, grown-up voices can be heard.

    UDI is absurd and, in practice, will cause huge damage to Catalonia and to Spain, but that is where Mas, Oriols and Rajoy have arrived at. It is ridiculous. And totally Spanish.

  • Incidentally, the next Question Time Edition is on the 17th. It's a shame they haven't been on for the Labour leadership contest, but one imagines the result will feature heavily.

    It'll also be interesting to see what the panel and audience thing of the migrant crisis and (if it's still being discussed) the drone strike.

    As yet the only confirmed panellist is comedian/presenter [oddly, no mention of her being a founding member of some feminist party or other] Sandi Toksvig.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    The timing couldn't be worse for Labour's credibility.

    Mr. T, especially concerning given the current (and declining) situation in Northern Ireland.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,977
    edited September 2015
    Mr. Flashman (deceased), I hope things don't go backwards for Northern Ireland. Stormont might be dysfunctional, but that's still miles better than regular terrorist attacks.

    Edited extra bit: Miss Plato, helps complete the set given Corbyn's views on the Falklands and his 'friends' in the Middle East.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,994

    Jonathan said:

    Did I hear this morning that HM Queen Elizabeth has finally surpassed Bobby Charlton's record?

    That's a scandalous lie... HM the Queen has never had a comb over.
    Rooney famously had the potted plant approach rather than combover.

    Though a Royal combover may be on the cards at some point. A carefully designed crown may cover a natural crown...
    Sir Bobby's record was set without surgical assistance. Rooney's will always be suspect..
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,553
    Plato said:

    The timing couldn't be worse for Labour's credibility.

    Mr. T, especially concerning given the current (and declining) situation in Northern Ireland.

    Shadow Chancellor: John McDonnell

    Shadow Foreign Secretary: Diane Abbott

    Shadow Home Secretary: Sadiq Khan

    Shadow Defence Secretary: Denis Skinner
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    To paraphrase, have Comrade Corbyn's team ever met a terrorist they didn't like?

    Mr. Flashman (deceased), I hope things don't go backwards for Northern Ireland. Stormont might be dysfunctional, but that's still miles better than regular terrorist attacks.

    Edited extra bit: Miss Plato, helps complete the set given Corbyn's views on the Falklands and his 'friends' in the Middle East.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    The timing couldn't be worse for Labour's credibility.

    Mr. T, especially concerning given the current (and declining) situation in Northern Ireland.

    Shadow Chancellor: John McDonnell

    Shadow Foreign Secretary: Diane Abbott

    Shadow Home Secretary: Sadiq Khan

    Shadow Defence Secretary: Denis Skinner
    CON gain Bootle? :D
  • Incidentally, the next Question Time Edition is on the 17th. It's a shame they haven't been on for the Labour leadership contest, but one imagines the result will feature heavily.

    It'll also be interesting to see what the panel and audience thing of the migrant crisis and (if it's still being discussed) the drone strike.

    As yet the only confirmed panellist is comedian/presenter [oddly, no mention of her being a founding member of some feminist party or other] Sandi Toksvig.

    I think we all know what the BBC QT audience will think of the migrant crisis. They will want more migration, lots of it.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Plato said:

    I feel Davis has a touch of the Julian Assange about him. I used to quite like him, then he just made a self-righteous look-at-me charlie of himself.

    He makes some valid points - but he reminds me of Ted Heath sulking when he speaks up.

    Charles said:

    <

    He [David Davis] is only a laughing stock in the minds of the Cameron loyalists who of course have to portray him that way as they are so frightened of what he can do.

    Unfortunately he's a flawed champion of some good ideas.

    He's proved himself to have poor judgment, overweening conceit and an inflated sense of his own abilities.
    Agree - IDS has taken the rejection on the chin and worked to make the country better starting with the poorest culminating in the living wage announcement.

    Davis has messed about with some dodgy human rights fluff - and achieved well not much.
  • Miss Jones, not long to find out. I recall being surprised and amused in equal measure when, at the height of the tuition fee debacle, Lamb and Fox actually got the audience on side [even though it was crammed with teachers and lecturers]. Or perhaps it was Sadiq Khan who lost them.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,553
    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    The timing couldn't be worse for Labour's credibility.

    Mr. T, especially concerning given the current (and declining) situation in Northern Ireland.

    Shadow Chancellor: John McDonnell

    Shadow Foreign Secretary: Diane Abbott

    Shadow Home Secretary: Sadiq Khan

    Shadow Defence Secretary: Denis Skinner
    CON gain Bootle? :D
    Maybe not Bootle (Merseyside is, incredibly, still trending leftwards).

    But Southampton Test, Newcastle under Lyme, Stoke South, Derbyshire NE, Bridgend, Ynys Mon, Middlesborough East, are the sort of seats that I think would be vulnerable to the Conservatives under a Corbyn leadership.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    If we were playing Fantasy Politics - it'd be really very hard to pick a more ridiculous line-up of probable contenders.

    WTF just doesn't come close to it. And we're only a couple of days from it becoming flesh.
    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    The timing couldn't be worse for Labour's credibility.

    Mr. T, especially concerning given the current (and declining) situation in Northern Ireland.

    Shadow Chancellor: John McDonnell

    Shadow Foreign Secretary: Diane Abbott

    Shadow Home Secretary: Sadiq Khan

    Shadow Defence Secretary: Denis Skinner
  • RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Plato said:

    The timing couldn't be worse for Labour's credibility.

    Mr. T, especially concerning given the current (and declining) situation in Northern Ireland.

    Shadow Chancellor: John McDonnell

    Shadow Foreign Secretary: Diane Abbott

    Shadow Home Secretary: Sadiq Khan

    Shadow Defence Secretary: Denis Skinner
    CON gain Bootle? :D
    No, Denis Skinner needs to be Energy Sec., in order to help get the mines reopened quickly.
  • If Cooper wins (we really don't know for sure what's happening), perhaps Umunna?

    6/1 is not enough to make that good value, though, given that Yvette to win is itself 8/1, even allowing for the possibility of Andy B winning and appointing Umunna.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,553

    Incidentally, the next Question Time Edition is on the 17th. It's a shame they haven't been on for the Labour leadership contest, but one imagines the result will feature heavily.

    It'll also be interesting to see what the panel and audience thing of the migrant crisis and (if it's still being discussed) the drone strike.

    As yet the only confirmed panellist is comedian/presenter [oddly, no mention of her being a founding member of some feminist party or other] Sandi Toksvig.

    When Sandi Toksvig tells a joke it's no laughing matter.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106

    Disraeli said:

    OT. Today is an anniversary for those who are not fans of Roman Imperial predation.
    twitter.com/DanHannanMEP/status/641503102697361408

    Germans knew how to arrange a welcome for mediterranean migrants in those days!
    very witty! :smiley:
  • Miss Jones.

    MD, you are Rigsby and I claim a cat called Vienna :-)

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,994
    TGOHF said:

    Mr. T, especially concerning given the current (and declining) situation in Northern Ireland.

    http://www.u.tv/News/2015/09/09/Senior-Sinn-Fein-man-arrested-in-McGuigan-murder-probe-44637

    "Detective Chief Inspector John McVea said: "The three males are currently assisting officers at the Serious Crime Suite at Antrim Police Station."...."

    The Serious Crime SUITE?

    "Fetch....the Comfy Chair....."
  • Mr. Pubgoer, have you been eating funny mushrooms again? :p
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Mr. Flashman (deceased), I hope things don't go backwards for Northern Ireland. Stormont might be dysfunctional, but that's still miles better than regular terrorist attacks.

    A couple of Reapers loitering over the Province might focus a few minds.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    EPIC :lol:

    Mr. F, ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I3qREbKqLw

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,341

    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    John_M said:

    Good morning all. God save the Queen!

    What on earth happened to the talented Labour politicians of yesteryear? What a sad collection of no-hopers, never-has-beens and flakes.

    Do you see any talented ones elsewhere, give me a laugh and name some Tories.
    Malcolm: I would say that the most talented politician around at the moment has been Nicola Sturgeon, simply measured by her achievements. Not just the electoral success but also her success in succeeding Salmond.

    I'm not saying anything about her policies, about which I don't know much but simply in terms of political skill.
    Is Sturgeon that talented? She's just built on what Salmond had already built.

    I'm not convinced the SNP are that talented either. If they had been then as the SNPers so repeatedly insisted the referendum was winnable then shouldn't they have won the referendum? Why did they lose a referendum we were all told they were going to win?

    The SNP don't exist in a vacuum but they might as well, as Scottish Toryism is dead and SLAB is useless and by joining a coalition with the Tories Scottish Liberalism committed Hari Kari. Under the circumstances with no credible Scottish opponents wouldn't almost any other SNP leader have done just as well as Sturgeon?
    A fair question but often those who follow charismatic politicians flail about whereas she seems to have built on Salmond's achievements.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    There was a massive wave of German immigration to the UK in 1714 ....

    Perhaps Frau Merkel might take a few descendants back and announce such a policy today of all days .... :smile:
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,553
    Disraeli said:

    Disraeli said:

    OT. Today is an anniversary for those who are not fans of Roman Imperial predation.
    twitter.com/DanHannanMEP/status/641503102697361408

    Germans knew how to arrange a welcome for mediterranean migrants in those days!
    very witty! :smiley:
    Those who got killed in the fighting were the lucky ones.
  • Miss Jones, not long to find out. I recall being surprised and amused in equal measure when, at the height of the tuition fee debacle, Lamb and Fox actually got the audience on side [even though it was crammed with teachers and lecturers]. Or perhaps it was Sadiq Khan who lost them.

    Well, it's from Wembley. So, presumably, a large number of first- and second-generation immigrants in the audience. Who will be praised by panel members for their contribution to society, blah, blah, blah. (Not saying there is anything wrong with this, just saying that it is bound to happen). And it will probably be down to one of those first- or second-generation audience members to suggest that the UK cannot absorb a limitless number of "refugees".

    We will see if I am correct (although, depending on the panel, I might not be able to face sitting through an episode to find out).

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I am sure that all PC PBers will be wanting to see a Dwarf free panto this Winterval; and there is now that prospect. No such thing as "bad publicity" they say!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3226537/Oh-no-didn-t-Theatre-scraps-Snow-White-s-dwarves-audiences-don-t-feel-comfortable-word.html
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,553

    I am sure that all PC PBers will be wanting to see a Dwarf free panto this Winterval; and there is now that prospect. No such thing as "bad publicity" they say!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3226537/Oh-no-didn-t-Theatre-scraps-Snow-White-s-dwarves-audiences-don-t-feel-comfortable-word.html

    I thought it was Snow White and the Seven Pervs.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572
    edited September 2015
    Guardinistas will enjoy today's blog:

    "The House of Commons is a place where the exchanges are mostly harsh and critical, and so it should make a welcome relief today to hear tributes to a woman who has been a feature of national life almost forever, someone who is often mocked but who has won over the public through longevity, perseverance and sheer decency, and who now stands as one of the great public figures of our time.

    But that’s enough about Harriet. We’ve got to get through the tributes to the Queen first."
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    SeanT said:

    The lunacy of All Things Corbyn is underlined by the name at the top of the list. John McDonnell. Here is the Guardian reporting on him a few years ago:

    "At a gathering to commemorate the IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands, Mr McDonnell said: "It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA.""

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/may/30/northernireland.devolution

    The Labour leadership had to distance themselves from McDonnell, and there were serious calls for him to be expelled from the party.

    Now he will be Corbyn's Shadow Chancellor. Labour's self mutilation continues.

    So McDonnell actually supported the IRA's terrorism campaign against the British people? Unbelievable.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And it's doing dwarves out of acting work.

    I am sure that all PC PBers will be wanting to see a Dwarf free panto this Winterval; and there is now that prospect. No such thing as "bad publicity" they say!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3226537/Oh-no-didn-t-Theatre-scraps-Snow-White-s-dwarves-audiences-don-t-feel-comfortable-word.html

  • Political talent = the ability to spot and then effectively exploit an opportunity - whether that be to persuade people to accept a point of view or to climb the greasy pole. Political talent is very different to being able to govern or make effective decisions.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,553
    Plato said:

    And it's doing dwarves out of acting work.

    I am sure that all PC PBers will be wanting to see a Dwarf free panto this Winterval; and there is now that prospect. No such thing as "bad publicity" they say!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3226537/Oh-no-didn-t-Theatre-scraps-Snow-White-s-dwarves-audiences-don-t-feel-comfortable-word.html

    That's the important point.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,341
    edited September 2015
    SeanT said:

    The lunacy of All Things Corbyn is underlined by the name at the top of the list. John McDonnell. Here is the Guardian reporting on him a few years ago:

    "At a gathering to commemorate the IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands, Mr McDonnell said: "It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA.""

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/may/30/northernireland.devolution

    The Labour leadership had to distance themselves from McDonnell, and there were serious calls for him to be expelled from the party.

    Now he will be Corbyn's Shadow Chancellor. Labour's self mutilation continues.

    Sean T: you said this on last night's thread -

    "The fascism of the Islamists is so blindingly obvious, it astonishes me the Left cannot see it. I wrote about it in the Telegraph

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100227116/the-strange-death-of-fascist-europe-and-how-the-left-wants-to-revive-it/

    I've come to the conclusion that the Left is now so desperate, so bereft of hope and ideas as they digest the death of Marxism and glumly contemplate Chinese-capitalist globalism, that they will entertain anything - literally ANYTHING - that seems to challenge the Anglo-Saxon capitalist worldview. Even better if it comes from non-white people.

    Thus the embrace of the most putrid, fascistic values inherent in Islamism. They're ok coz Islamists hate us. That's good enough for the likes of Corbyn, Palmer, the Guardian, most comedians, and so forth."

    These two quotes by Camus and Tony Judt are apposite I think:-

    "Mistaken ideas always end in bloodshed but in every case it is someone else's blood . That is why some of our thinkers feel free to say just about anything."

    and

    "Totalitarianism of the Left, much like an earlier totalitarianism of the Right, was about violence and power and control, and it appealed because of these features, not in spite of them."

    I think that we have to accept that it's not just turning a blind eye to the violence which is going on but that some people are positively attracted to ideologies and groups which, in the cause of creating a new Utopia, are so willing to destroy everything and everyone who stands in their way.

    It may be uncomfortable to say this but violence is more attractive to some than we might be willing to admit.




  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    Sean_F said:

    Disraeli said:

    Disraeli said:

    OT. Today is an anniversary for those who are not fans of Roman Imperial predation.
    twitter.com/DanHannanMEP/status/641503102697361408

    Germans knew how to arrange a welcome for mediterranean migrants in those days!
    very witty! :smiley:
    Those who got killed in the fighting were the lucky ones.
    True. An example of the vile sadism that has erupted from so called "Homo Sapiens" throughout history and continues to the present day.

    Why do we enjoy inflicting pain on others so much, especially those who are defeated and helpless?
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